#The Betrayer Gods

[smilelikeawolf]

The Betrayers turned to their siblings and said, "Your creations are flawed and broken, they disappoint you, they hurt you. We have to destroy them."

And the Prime Deities replied, "No, they are our children. We won't destroy them. We love them too much."

The faithful of Aeor turned to their gods and said, "We believe in you. Let us help you. The Betrayer Gods are cruel and evil. We will use the Factorum Malleus to kill them all to end this war and make the world better."

And the Prime Deities replied, "No, they are our siblings. We won't kill them. We love them too much."

There's nothing like a tragedy born from love.

[undead-knick-knack]

The Betrayers better lay off Trist if they know what's good for them 😤

[song-of-baldy-ron]

Today I’m thinking of how different a mortal’s fear of death must feel in a world with an established and known afterlife like Exandria. Clearly there is still a natural fear of death/ survival instincts that keep life on Exandria intact, but what of the fear of the unknown/oblivion/simply not existing anymore that is so intrinsically linked to the fear of death in our world?

Are most of Exandria’s mortals even capable of understanding the fear the gods have of beings like Predathos? Is this what the Dawnfather may have meant when he told Cassida there are things she doesn’t understand?

And if the gods are in charge of mortals’ afterlives in Exandria- what happens to those souls when Predathos is released? When Predathos consumes a god, does the god’s followers get eaten/removed from reality alongside them?

[asmodeus-cock]

[the-matron-of-ravens]

Aeorians and The Gods are Mirrors of Each other

I've seen a lot of discussion about how contrasting and diametrically opposed the mortals and gods are. And (particularly on CR Twitter) that this is a tragedy of oppressive gods striking down mortals who dared to resist.

Well, I don't think that's entirely accurate. Rather than being opposites of each other I think that the Aeorians in power and the Gods are acting more like mirrors for each other. Reflecting the failings and flaws of the other.

Let's take a look at some of the criticisms that the gods have received from both Aeorians and fandom under the Read More (cause long):

the Gods have hoarded power and abilities and resources from mortals to increase their own power

the Gods have used disproportionate violence against and ignored the plight of mortals because they could/because they hated them

the Gods have taken domain of lands/worlds that aren't theirs and done with them as they want - even at the expense of mortals

When it became convenient/dangerous/tough the Gods caused this chaos and abandoned mortals to their fate or worse are actively trying to destroy the mortals

The gods don't care for mortals - at worst mortals are bugs to squash - at best they view mortals as "prized pets" and things to be controlled

Ultimately, having these entities with this much power and resources is fundamentally not just dangerous but an existential threat

There are others but those seem to be the main critiques that I've observed.

Well, now let's take a look at Aeor and Aeorian society that we've learned over the course of Downfall p.1 and p.2

When in Hawk's Hill, the most important goal of Aeorians was taking tribute via food, rare resources, and materials, etc. for their secret project. All the while people starving for food watched on as riches passed them by, and Ayden daring to help them was seen as a huge risk.

Aeorians - during the time of the Age of Arcanum - took a chunk of the earth, raised it (crucially) above the rest of the world because they could and because it signalled their power and superiority over everyone else.

Then during the time of the Calamity, Aeor - as the "last bastion of civilization/mortals" has shuttered their doors. As we saw with Hawk's Hill after the resources were taken on board, those that could *work and serve* were prioritized first. And those that were sick or religious? Left for dead and discarded. (Edit: this is to say nothing about the way Aeorians have tried to eradicate all traces of the natural world and its animals from aeor)

Aeorians have developed the ability to create an entirely new species of people with souls - Aeormatons, they have developed the power of creation. They have also developed a weapon so powerful it can kill gods multiple times over. And the decision of who to target or when is completely in the hands of those in power.

Aeorians have been seen subjugating fiends, devils, demons, constructs, elementals - all symbols of divine power. Humiliating them and displaying their superiority by treating them as pets.

Are you picking up what I'm putting down?

Both the Gods and Mortals are guilty of all of these things. Some more than others.

Civilian Aeorians had no control over the high ranking Aeorians building a weapon or subjugating other species. Just as the Prime Deities were helpless to stop the Betrayer Gods from manipulating mortals into starting the Calamity. Just as they were helpless to do anything other than take up arms to try and prevent a genocide of their children by their siblings.

The power differential there is massive - but the result is the same. Both are groups of people being collectively punished for the crimes of a part of them.

The problem is we've moved passed Mutually Assured Destruction - where theoretically there could be a stalemate because both sides know the other could take them out. We've moved into a situation where both Aeorians and the Gods feel that if they don't shoot first, it is them who will be dead.

Once both sides have determined that to give in/not shoot would mean their destruction? We're headed for a unavoidable trainwreck.

My final takeaway here is that I think Matt has very very intentionally made it so both the Gods and the Mortals are reflections of each other. There is no unequivocal bad guy in power here and there is no unequivocal good guy in power.

The only end result here whether the weapon is completed or the gods strike Aeor down is a tragedy where innocents die because of those in power.

The only end result here is a world in which those in power cause more destruction and death than they ever thought themselves capable of because they felt forced into it or were blinded by their hate. Where even those who thought themselves "good" and "fair" and "helping" look at themselves and the result of their actions and see waste and destruction.

But I do have a question...after the Calamity and seeing what it wrought - the Prime Deities made the decision to not just banish their traitorous siblings away but themselves as well. To limit their own power - and by extension their ability to harm.

Would the Archmages of Aeor have done the same?

I'm not convinced to be honest.

[naazaif327]

Honestly? I will straight up say it, I think that whole conversation with Melora was fucked up and deeply manipulative on Her part. Allowing only Orym to enter, not Ashton or Dorian or anyone who might have any questions or critiques for Her, isolating him from his friends, pulling away when he brings up Aeor or anything She might be held accountable for, giving him a a traumatizing psychological horror vision that almost broke his mind to make him as afraid as She is, dangling his husband as a prize he might win if he manages to beat Predathos, and offering him a shiny new weapon to fight with. He literally said after coming down from the trip that it was so much that he didn’t really have the wherewithal to talk about Aeor with Her.

The new vestige was nice I guess, but right now before this final assault on Ruidus is the fucking time for accountability, for the Gods to prove that things won’t just return to the status quo when Predathos is stopped/killed/banished. What would’ve happened if Orym had asked about Opal, about Cyrus, about all the people harmed by the Betrayers in these last thousand years because the Primes couldn’t pull the trigger? What might happen if one of the Bell’s Hells asks the Dawnfather about Hearthdell like Deanna did? What might the Gods say to Evoroa and the Reilorans, what words would they have for the mortals they balled up and chucked into space to save themselves?

We didn’t get even a start to those answers tonight because of how the Wildmother played this encounter, and it doesn’t give me hope of them changing their ways at all. I’m curious as to how a potential meeting with the Stormlord or the Everlight might go next episode, but we’ll have to wait and see.

EDIT: knowing now after the talk with The Arch Heart that it’ll probably be a Calamity if they fight it, but Melora didn’t tell him that is just icing on this awful cake, like no wonder Orym said “I don’t have a God” in 107

[marvelousbelladonna]

Betrayer gods are here!!!

[itsablindowl]

Do you think when Zerxus showed pity on Asmodeus during calamity and Asmodeus went nuts and killed Zerxus. Do you think he saw the same pity in the eyes of Sarenrae when she kept him from dying and subjected him to the burning pain of their escape from the divine realm, and again and again whenever she would try and redeem him in the milennnia afterwards, do you think he saw that same pity in the eyes of her followers in the moment before he decided to slaughter them all, and do you think he sees that same pity in the eyes of his other siblings amongst the prime deities whenever they meet and they turn their back on him for their children (their 'bad first draft') once again ?

[shellem15]

Was scrolling through the Ludinus tag because I enjoy seeing critters drag his bony ass, and suddenly had some thoughts about ludi and the gods. Keeping the narrative roles of gods and myths in mind, I want to talk about the gods' role in Exandria on a metatextual level, and how it ties into why Ludinus is a big stupid idiot (to put it in simple terms).

So, some preface: in real life religion and mythologies, gods aren't real people (shocker, I know). But the things they represent are real; gods and myths are just ways of explaining real world phenomena. This is why their characterization can be really whack. Zeus, for example, is a dick because in real life, kings are dicks. Artemis is both a protecter of hunters and their killer because, in ancient greece, when you went out into the woods to hunt, either you came back alive or you didn't. You can't analyze the gods as real people because they're not people-- they're concepts. You always have to keep these narrative roles and the historical context in mind when reading these myths. You can't judge them by our modern morals and values, because for one these myths are from ancient times, and also because the characters in these myths aren't humans that follow human moral codes or ethics.

So, in Exandria, the gods are real. And from what we've seen so far, they exist in a weird sort of space. They are both people, and concepts; mortal-like but also not. When analyzing the gods as concepts and roles in a narrative, it's pretty clear that the gods act in ways that align with their domains. The Everlight is merciful because she represents the concept of redemption; Asmodeus is hateful and cruel because he represents tyranny and domination; the Wildmother is both nurturing and brutal because nature is both of these things. You can't remove their actions from their domains, it is an intrinsic part of themselves.

Additionally, the actions they take represent certain themes. The Changebringer defeated Asmodeus in the calamity because freedom is the only way to beat tyranny. Same with the Everlight and the Dawnfather being the ones to strike down the Crawling King (with help from the Moonweaver and the All-Father), because these two gods represent hope, which defeats despair and suffering (I know despair isn't technically Torog's domain but it fits with the rest of his character so I'm gonna throw it in there.) The Raven Queen's ascension is representative of the Age of Arcanum as a whole, of the dominance of wizards over the world. The actions of the gods cannot be separated from their domains, and they cannot be separated from the general narratives seen in Exandria.

These overarching narratives can also be seen in the actions of mortals, too. The Age of Arcanum fell because of hubris. Because mortals thought they could best the gods and the world itself and it backfired on them. It's those rich guys who tried to go to the Titanic and their submarine got imploded by the water pressure. If you fuck around, you're gonna eventually find out. You can't beat the world you live in.

This detail of besting the gods is one I want to focus on with Ludinus. His whole thing is killing the gods to get revenge and "free" Exandria. But how is killing the gods freeing Exandria? The gods are Exandria. Even if they can't physically manifest avatars, they're still a part of it. The gods, being concepts, are written into the fabric of Exandria itself; you can't separate them from the world because they are the world and the world is them.

This fact is why the complete banishment of the Betrayer Gods didn't work; they are a fundamental part of Exandria and how it functions. Their return was, narratively, inevitable, because you can't remove concepts like violence or tyranny or betrayal from the world; they are here to stay, whether you like them or not. That doesn't mean you can't minimize their impact, just that you can't remove them entirely.

This is also why the Matron's ritual did work. When she killed the god of death, she wasn't destroying the concept of death itself, just putting it under new management. The same with Vecna ascending and becoming the god of secrets-- he took over an already existing domain. No fundamental concepts were created or destroyed, it's just that the faces that represented them changed.

Ludinus, in his denial of the gods, is denying the world itself. Both the good and the bad parts of it. He thinks he can remove the gods but keep Exandria mostly intact, but that's not how that works. He's so caught up in his trauma and revenge that he misses the bigger picture. In forsaking the gods, he forsakes the world. In killing the gods, he would be killing Exandria as we know it. (And that's why he's a big dumb idiot).

[alikandhoney]

WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAAAAATTT

Are the implications between that interaction between Melora and the tortle—-

I’m getting really unsure about who I think this is, I’m still leaning towards the crawling king but the way they talked about the disguise I’m back to Zehir!

And then as I’m writing this he made a comment about hooks that makes me think the chained oblivion!! GOD why won’t they just say who they ARE!! I’m foaming at the mouth

[smilelikeawolf]

The Doom of Aeor was not just one thing.

The Betrayer Gods, so full of hate for mortals, so full of hurt at their siblings choosing their creations over them, stepped into the world to destroy everything themselves.

The archmages built a weapon to kill the gods, because the Calamity was destroying the world.

The archmages built the God Hammer at the heart of Aeor, so that anything that went wrong with risked destroying the city.

The Prime Deities didn’t explain the threat of Predathos, and how they needed all the gods to live in order to fight it should it ever break free.

The Wildmother, scared to reveal how much the Primes and Betrayers still loved each other in spite of everything, because she wasn’t ready to be judged by her children.

The Primes not holding themselves to the same rules they placed onto Solars and mortals.

Cognouza fucking off into the Astral Sea destroyed the teleportation leylines and therefore killed any chance the Aeorians had to escape.

The Arch Heart refused to embrace Primarch Selena when she asked for forgiveness. The rejection that caused her throw the trapped sibling into the God Hammer and cast Wish.

The Arch Heart chose to save their sibling, that trapped god, instead of Counterspelling the Wish.

Primarch Selena using Wish to send knowledge of the God Hammer to every wizard still in Aeor. Wizards who might have been smaller in number had it not been for Cognouza, had they been able to leave before the knowledge was dispersed.

Asmodeus and the Betrayers, choosing to use the God Hammer to kill their siblings when their siblings refused to kill them. Asmodeus tricking them all and acquiring the scroll to the God Hammer and setting it off.

The Arch Heart, redirecting the energy of the God Hammer into the city he’d wanted to save, trading mortal lives for his and their siblings.

The gods’ inability to make peace with their own mortality. They, who in their youth, fled the only home they’d ever known, watching as Predathos consumed it, consumed their family, watching loved ones gone in a flash. Their desperate flight into Reality that forced them into their bodies forever constructed by what they felt in that moment.

Trauma born from fear born from loss born from pain born from love.

[happycattail]

There is something about the Gods’ true forms and powers being literally shaped and manifested by their trauma of losing a home leading them to creating mortals that fear or worship those forms and powers is so delicious to me.

[undead-knick-knack]

Ludinus: So, has that convinced you? Do you see now why the gods need to be wiped out?

Bells Hells:

[song-of-baldy-ron]

Considering they all took on a mortal life and form I can’t help but think of the mini-Betrayers as children and what their parents were like

“Honey, this might sound crazy but I think our son might be the literal devil”

“He’s just going through his terrible two’s, all kids are like that!”

[arclundarchivist]

[Spoilers C3E100] The Nuances…

I am obsessing over the nuances that Downfall has brought when it comes to the Gods and Aeor.

The Arch Heart is infinity seeking the finite. A tortured artist , a reveler who spoiled the revery. The fact that the two they chose to move through Aeor with are the one who hates them the most and the one who could grant them what they seek: Honesty. Finality.

They chose to be a work of mortal hands, they chose to create a place of merriment and life, giving a place to *be* for the creations and slaves of the dour and harsh kingdom around them.

They find beauty in an ending, *yet* they don’t seem to like the cost, *unless* it was for them alone.

They find beauty in Aeor, for their gift, taken from the hands of another, is what allowed it to be. Magic. Aeor, their mortal form, the Factorum Malleus, a poem, none of it would be possible if they had simply had restraint.

And the Spider Queen, she is the Goddess of Treachery. But how can she not be? When the *thing* she made was claimed by the one she first gave it to? Where is the credit? Where is the love? She is a Spider. She made the Weave. Yet the Clown has center stage.

The Matron’s nuance is best exemplified when you see the stark separation of her as a mortal and as a goddess. A harsh fascination with eternity and covetousness over death as she walks as a human once again. *Yet*, she lets her power flow and all be judgement *goes*, the harsh passion become soothing calm. She is not a judge. She is a guide. Her End is not final. It is a doorway. The next step. The Unknown. And I am reminded of her line in LoVM: “Death gives meaning to life.” Props to Laura for immediately channeling that energy.

Beauty and Death understand each other better than the others. Yet she, is not truly Kin, and *that* makes it easier to speak, because her understanding will not be colored by a joint past.

The Everlight, and her silent grief, the hole at the center of her finding a light she never could have expected.

“You are a miracle.”

A believer, in a den of deicide.

She means it, how could she not? She sees the innocence and the love, and the chance for this place to be built better.

She refuses to give up, *yet* again the hope she has for others is soured as the person tells her “We can help you, by murdering your kin.”

She doesn’t want that. No more than she wants Aeor to die.

There is only so many things she knows how to do.

But some wounds refuse to be healed. Some people simply will take the hand that aids.

She is stuck, in the midst of a fight she never wanted.

Because she loves. She can’t help it.

And there is something so interesting about Asmodeus’s reaction to that faith, that love.

It disgusts him, but why? Is it because he has had to force adoration, force loyalty, while for her she need simply be as she *is*.

Or is it because it forced him to remember when she had faith in him. When he loved her? Is the disgust internal?

Ayden believe so. The new Dawn, humble in his mean, recognizing the sorrow of the former and attempting to still find hope in this place where Hope should long be dead there is an naivety to him, and I have to wonder where it’s going to lead.

Because it is his soldiers, his forces that revealed the deception the plan. That rage that claim “if you wanted us to follow you, you should not have made us good” not misplaced and maybe it is just a mean he wears, but there is a goodness to him just as there is a goodness to Trist.

But you need not look far for where that anger could be funneling from a pious man of false face a very well accomplished liar. Would it be better if it is all just deception born from the archangel or would it be better if his rage were true because from the way, it seemed that angel before he died was on the precipice a fall of his own.

The Wildmother and the Lawbearer, ever dualistic, lovers representing concepts that many would consider alien. Yet they, more than any of the others know what the Calamity has cost Exandria.

Natural world devastated. Civilizations destroyed.

*Domunas Gone*

*Marquet Burned*

*Exandrians Dead*

Yet, one stood back while the other charged in when it came to a threat that could further unravel everything.

The Emissary, an attempt to bridge that gap. What is his purpose? A gift to her beloved? A being of the natural, elemental world, that seeks to comfort the ailing wild. He is so fascinated by love and life. He could he so much… Why did she send him, while she waits in the background planting a seed that will grow into something so foundational to the world. A new law. A new truth.

Yet the one time blame for so much of this devastation, seems to feel at least at times, a bit of remorse.

The Ruiner, was far from that once, a guardian, a defender, the first to act.

And destruction is not inherently evil, for they learned to wield it as a weapon against true entropy. Through their power something new would grow.

Yet… whose hand has marred the world more than theirs?

Of them all Torog is the one that is easiest to understand. He looked into the face of something even the infinite could not understand and it drove him mad. The pain, grants lucidity, why would he ever want it to stop? Pain is a lesson, pain is a teacher, pain reminds you what you must not do again.

The only I trust the least though… is Ioun. There is something she knows that she does not dare to speak. Why? What would it change? What good does hiding it do? Why do you pry so readily into the knowledge of others yet withhold your own? Has she been shaped by Aeor? Covetous of what she keeps?

All that is to say this story has compelling more than I thought it could, and I am both anxious and excited to see its end, to know the truth of the fall.

And my biggest worry, the biggest question that remains for me: “What are the Bell’s Hells thinking?”

[setsailforthestars]

New theory I’m cooking up: the true purpose or origin of the Divine Gate. Walk with me, this is a long one.

We know the gods sequestered themselves behind the Divine Gate at the end of the Calamity to further protect mortals from the Betrayers and to prevent any gods— Prime and Betrayer alike— from crossing into the mortal plane. It is very evocative to me to the Tree of Names in Avalir.

So I imagine (and I’m sure it’s been said before somewhere) that it was also created to protect them as well as the mortals, that maker and creation have to be separate to protect each other from each other… but there must be more to it.

(Spoilers for CR3 and Downfall under the cut)

I think they are scared of something, and hiding that fear behind the appearance of benevolence. I don’t just mean the fear that other mortals like the Matron may usurp them, but the fear of other mortals like Aeor. I wonder if in the events of Downfall the secret of Aeor’s weapon to destroy the gods will get out, and as a result they create the gate to prevent any more of their siblings being destroyed, Betrayer or not.

I think Predathos plays a part in it as well, especially since the cage around Ruidus is made of similar magic as the Gate (and perhaps Aeor’s weapon is similarly connected but that’s a theory for another post). What I’m interested in is not the weapon itself, but what the gods do about the knowledge of it.

We know from Ludinus’s claims—as nasty as he is, he’s also smart— that a blow is going to be struck against the morally superior image of the gods when he shows Downfall to BH. He wants to prove mortals are being manipulated by the gods, that the truth of history has been manipulated by them as well. I’m inclined to believe he’ll succeed, even with his vastly different worldview. Much of BH either hates or is questioning the gods already, it’s not actually hard to convince them of it, but he does need to convince them they gods are worth killing. He says, "When the divine threatens your families, your children, the very future of life as you know it, they reveal themselves as the enemy."

We know the gods teamed up with the betrayers and struck Aeor from the sky— a genocide against an entire city, to stop the weapon they had. We know they left Exandria and mortals had to forge their own paths to survival at the end of the Calamity, distanced from divinity. But neither of these two facts have been damning enough to turn most mortals against divinity, especially in the face of the greater threat of the Betrayers. But did the gods leverage the threat of the Betrayers to mask their reasons for creating the gate? To take attention off the knowledge of Aeor— wherever it may be?

We will see what exactly happens in Aeor. And I’m pretty sure this will have something to do with them creating the Divine Gate, and I’m pretty also sure it is a combination of fear and selfishness that leads them to do so, not just honour and sacrifice.