#Stephen Cromwell

[oldmanbracket]

Sexiest Old Man Tournament: Round 1

Who is hotter?

[misscromwellsmonocle]

Strainer by Stephen Vollo (*1988)

[thomascromwelll]

Are you passive-aggressive? Stephen Gardiner: I'm aggressive-aggressive, darling!

MARK RYLANCE and MARK GATISS as Thomas Cromwell and Bishop Stephen Gardiner Wolf Hall (2015) — Episode two 'Entirely Beloved'

[cosmic-walkers]

I might be the only one who doesn't think that Thomas hates being the son of a blacksmith/lowborn (and let's be real, he was a blacksmith himself.) Fandoms tends to think he hates it, and he's ashamed of it, but I just never saw it.

In the books, he is constantly calling back to his past as a blacksmith, soldier, whatever, lowborn man, and he credits his feats and survival skills he learned back then, to the man he is now. To me, a huge thing about Thomas is that he does lose himself, he does love the power that comes with climbing up in nobility like any man would. But there is never a time when he is ashamed of himself, there is never a time when he wants to hide his past and regrets it. He despises Walter -let's get that straight. He does in fact, hate Walter. But the majority of people tend to conflate that with him hating the fact that he is a lowborn man.

When in reality, he loves that about himself. He loves that he didn't have to have a governess, a sophisticated tutor, or learn at the best schools in order to sit at the king's table. In fact, he can afford all those people now (before he worked with henry tbh), to make sure the boys in his house are well-learned. He loves the fact that he climbed up social ranks without having to have a noble family or bloodline attached to him. He adores the fact that Henry has people like Norfolk and Suffolk and other natural born nobles working for him, but they still, with their god given right and power, cannot do half the stuff a lowborn man from Putney can do.

Even in the first wolf hall book, Henry and Wriothesely DO find noble Cromwells and attempts to push Thomas to claim them, and to look into the matter and he says no. Because he doesn't want to be noble by birth, he doesn't want to present as anything else than a lowborn man who rose to the top with his own merit.

There seems to be this idea in fandom that he is ashamed or embarrassed of being lowborn, but I never thought that. Like, he makes constant call backs to it in the books, and always credits his past, being a black smith, and being low born to survival.

Of course, he hates when people look down on him. That makes him upset, especially because he knows he is better than the nobles who are usually speaking down on him. But like, to be angry is natural. Insecurity when people speak down on you, is natural.

But, he does not hate his past. He never aspired to be noble by birth, he never wanted to hide who he was or his past. He began as a lowborn man, and is prideful in the fact that as a lowborn man, he could do so much more than the natural born nobles/royals.

now if you do wanna see people in wolf hall who hate the fact that they are low born or tied to low born people, thomas more and stephen gardiner are standing right there. thomas more, who is extremely self cautious about the fact that he and thomas knew each other from lambeth because he loathes the idea that a lowborn child could one day be his peer. and it has to make him acknowledge the fact that not to far off in his own lineage, he also has lowborn blood in his veins, as either his father or grandfather was a baker, and mistake, and t. more could've also been a baker. and for thomas more, someone so devout to the religious order, and nobility being ordained by god, can you imagine the fuckery that goes on in his mind? he knows that he is noble, but by his religion, should he even be here? was his life falling to shambles a part of divine punishment? perhaps, this is his thought process.

And then there is Stephen, who is not just a bastard but a bastard whom no one knows where he comes from. The theory that he is a tudor is very very, slippery at best, because there is no historical evidence to document that, and even if he was he was utterly abandoned. Historically, Stephen did not come from a family of note, and only got to where he was because of his own merit and skills, and proved himself to both Henry and Wolsey over and over again. The reason that Stephen *is* nobility now, is because he is a Bishop. That is quite literally the only reason, and he had to prove himself. Combining this with whomever we have in the books, it is very very evident that Stephen, hates the fact that he wasn't natural born nobility. He hates the fact he was a bastard, lowborn, and that he probably doesn't even know where he comes from.

So this idea that Thomas Cromwell hates being lowborn, makes no sense to me, and it doesn't hold up canonically. Especially, when we actually see characters in the show how absolutely despite the fact that they are lowborn, or related to people who *are* low born.

[mametupa]

[cinemaocd]

Chapter 2 of Valor Ecclesiasticus is up on AO3

Stephen begins his memoir with a romantic tale, with an intermission to address the ghosts in the room.

Huge thanks to @liliana-von-k, for her help with this project. :D

[austin-friars]

unpopular opinons but i'm asking you for them whats your least favourite depiction of your favourite tudor figures???

Oh I have a lot of feelings about this, but I'm just going to limit it to the big three. So that is, Mary Tudor, Thomas Cromwell and Stephen Gardiner and Anne of Cleves. Sorry because is going to be incredibly long.

1.) For Cromwell. I hate that a lasting 'description' of him, if you could call it such, is that he 'betrayed Anne Boleyn'. He didn't do that. Most people look at his relationship with Anne Boleyn through such a 21st century lens and the reality of it is that, it's not that simple. Claiming that he had Anne executed, or was the main reason for her being executed, is inaccurate because he didn't do that, Henry did that. Henry was the one who wanted false charges but on Anne, Henry was the one who wanted to shame and brand Anne as a type of traitor, harlot, what have you. Henry was the one who wanted her to be disposed of, so that he could marry Jane Seymour. The reason that Anne is dead, is because of Henry, not Thomas Cromwell. People always say that he could've "helped" her or spoken out for her, but why would he? Anne threatened to have Thomas executed months before, and that is when he began to view her as an enemy. Thomas knew the power she had, and did not take that lightly. He wasn't going to extend any grace to the person whom was his ally at one point, and then in a fit of anger, threatened to bring him and his family down and execute him.

"Oh, but she was mad at him because he was giving the money from the monasteries to himself and the king, rather than to the poor." First of all, that is also silly because while we can say that's true, the only reason the poor were having their money taken from them is because of the reformation Anne took an equal part in spearheading. We wouldn't be in this situation if there were was no reformation in the first place. And let's make it clear, that Henry was taking a vast majority of the money as well, so perhaps, Anne should have gone to Henry, the monarch, to ask him to give his portion to the poor, not Thomas. And Anne herself couldve also given the poor money as well.

So yeah, Cromwell being described as a traitor or whatever is so annoying. And then when people are like 'him getting beheaded is karma!' Karma for what? By that logical, Anne getting beheaded is karma for what happened with KoA

I'll put Mary and Stephen together since their toxic mother daughter coded.

2.) I'm not going to say that they were perfect, but let's not act like they weren't the victims of strict, anti-Catholic propaganda. Mary isn't perfect, but neither is any Tudor monarch, and still, she is held to a higher standard than her father or siblings. Yes, Mary I somehow gets far more hate than Henry VIII and I just don't understand. Out of both Elizabeth and Henry, Mary executed the least amount of people. This idea that burning people at the stake, or executing people for hearesy is unique to Mary is so surreal. Henry had 10,000 people executed for not accepting the new religion. Elizabeth also executed people on charges of hersey, in addition to having over 20,000 killed because they fought back against her policies. She also subjected Ireland to so much cultural genocide. But for some reason, Mary is the only one who is held up to any kind of unfair standard. And it's funny that the vast majority of the hatred for her doesn't start there, it starts from when she was a teenager. Not only do people hate her for not accepting Anne Boleyn as a step mother, and for not accepting that she was a bastard, they hate her for being abused. They hate that her being a victim of Henry, Anne, Nofrolk's and Anne Sheldon's abuse makes their favorite historical figures look bad - especially when it comes to making Anne Boleyn look bad. They hate when you tell them that Mary was essentially forced to be her sister's servant or care taker and that she didn't like it. People will argue up and down at how Mary was a spoiled brat for not accepting Anne Boleyn, and it's like...how would you guys act in that situation? It's ridiclous the unfair, and misogynstic standard Mary is held to today. The fact that she is called 'Bloody Mary' when she is the *least* bloodiest of her siblings is so unfair.

3.) And then there is Stephen. Most Tudor media goes out of its way to portray him somewhat more villainous or conniving than he was in real life. Yes, he was petty and he was known to be mouthy but that isn't really a reason to portray him as more villainous than Thomas More, or Thomas Cromwell? I loved Wolf Hall, but I absolutely hate the lasting and unfair impact Mantel left on him as a character, and due to years worth of Anti-Catholic propaganda, he's going to continue to be viewed as villainous for a long time. A lot of this has to do now, with his treatment of Thomas Cromwell. As if Thomas Cromwell wasn't also an aggressor in the fault in their relationship. Aside from taking Gardiner's job, Thomas was also ringing in the end of Catholicism as England knew it and that put Stephen in danger. A lot of contemporary Tudor media points out that Stephen went after Thomas for power, and that can be one reason. But another reason is religion, and Stephen seeing Thomas as a threat, because he had become one. Henry removing Stephen's position as secratary and then giving it to Thomas sent a clear message. It was also quite evident that Stephen was a secret Catholic, which could mean death. On top of that, Thomas also sent spies after Stephen while Stephen was in exile in France, to attempt to bring back information that Stephen was loyal to the pope, and if he found concrete evidence, Stephen wouldn't been executed for treason. He is no less conniving, sneaky, or dangerous than Cromwell, and what he did to Cromwell was done primarily out of self preservation, because in his mind, Cromwell could've had him killed, or at least, he could've put it in Henry's mind. I don't like that Cromwell is somehow seen as a moral compass when it comes to courtiers like Stephen, when they were both trying to survive, and if we're looking at who threw the first stone historically, it was Thomas. I clearly love these two, I like to write historical fiction focusing on a supposed relationship, but I don't like how Stephen's judged heavily on how he treated Thomas.

And then, there is the relationship between Wolsey and Stephen, that Mantel butchered. Wolsey and Gardiner remained LIFE LONG friend. Historically, both Wolsey and Gardiner were both lowborn, as was Cromwell....Idk why Mantel pushed this idea that Garinder hated people who were lowborn, and climbed from the bottom to the top, when he historically was like that and he was a bastard. Why would he hate Wolsey for being lowborn? Historically, Wolsey reached out to Gardiner toward the end of his life, and they kept consistent contact. Gardiner also took a large chunk of Wolsey's household and offered them wages. This was clearly a favor for Wolsey.

Personally, and just, run with me here, I think he was gay historically so the slander on him is ten fold just becaws of that. Right next to Gregory Cromwell.

4. And then lastly there's Anne of Cleves. My most controversial opinion is that I need people to stop calling her the 'lucky one', and I hate that people tend to look over how she may've been greatly offended by what happened with Katherine Howard (whom I love!). Yes, AoC survived, but only after months of ridicule, slander and rumors spread by Henry. She is described as the 'lucky one' only after being insulted astronomically by Henry. Yes, she got to be rich, she got to have lands, etc., but she didn't come to England for that. She came to England to be a queen, and to unite Germany and England.

Also being called the 'lucky one' came with so many caveats. Keep in mind, this was a twenty four year old girl. She probably wanted to marry, have children and at least, have a legacy. Because of what happened with Henry, that was not possible. Aside from Henry spreading rumors that she was ugly, even commenting on her nudity, and virginity, no many would be dumb enough to marry and have a child with Anne of Cleves. If she married and had a child, especially a son, it would've been seen as an insult to Henry and she'd very quickly be viewed as his enemy. So here we have a twenty four-five year old girl, who can't be married, or be a mother, all to please the ego of a king. And even her wealth came with a caveat; she couldn't leave England. She was essentially trapped there because if she left, all that power, that land, status, it would be gone. Henry wanted to trap her, he wanted to keep her there so she couldn't find a foreign husband and make another match that could potentially be a threat to him in the future. That is not a good life, that is not a good deal!

And lastly it is so overlooked at how she may've been offended by Katerhine Howard. Tudors did some MAJOR PR when they danced and while I don't doubt that she wasn't hateful toward Katherine, she was still the other woman. AoC is a noble princess, so scratch that she is royalty. What makes people thinks he happily tolerated her husband having an affair. She knew to be quiet and accept and annulment, but that doesn't mean she was happy about it. YES they danced at Christmas, even after Henry went to bed. But appearances meant everything back then, and AoC not only understood English court at that that time, but was also once again, a royal woman herself. She knew to keep face, so that rumors wouldn't spread. Katherine was also the queen at that point, she couldn't disrespect her in any way, so of course, she'd be cordial. But do people think she had so little self worth or love to the point where they act like she was happy and wholly loving toward the woman who took her position as queen, when AoC had literally left her home in order to be queen of England for politics?

4. )Honorable mention, Gregory Cromwell....if you get deep enough into Tudor circles, you see he was accused of buggary. Most people decide to claim he was either a rapist or cheated on his wife, however, the more likely outcome is that he was gay and caught with a man. So yeah technically he did cheat, but it's better than him being a rapist!!

Send me an unpopular opinion it can be about tudor era stuff, writing or hell even the last kingdom

[dxcstrange-stuff]

There we go again with the annual summary of art!! (It feels like I made the last one yesterday, help) ✨

In comparison to last year I do feel some change within my art style and overall process. Lots of things happened this year, whether it was new art techniques I discovered and started using myself, or other things like my first exhibition, being able to gift my muse Mark Rylance my art in person, or finishing my Wolf Hall animatic. I hope next year will be the same, if not even better 💖

[stilltrails]

The interesting thing about Wolf Hall is that Stephen Gardiner isn't evil. He's a villain to Thomas, but in the grand scheme of things what he's doing makes sense (in the same way Thomas bringing down Anne Boleyn does). He's working in his own self-interest and of his faith, which will eventually kill Thomas, but Thomas would do the same for him.

And Thomas does the exact same thing with Protestantism.

Stephen is also working in the best interest of the Catholics, who at the time, were an incredibly oppressed class experiencing a genocide that would continue to ravage Europe well after Elizabeth's time.

He tends to his flock as a Bishop, and seeks to ensure the souls of his people are not going to be damned. Which as a priest who is responsible for the resurgence of Catholicism after Edward dies, we can tell he takes very seriously.

He has valid reasons to move against Thomas, considering Thomas has taken his job, his home, and historically sent spies against him.

I'm not saying i'm rooting for him, but his beef with Thomas and his need for self-preservation at the expense of Thomas's life is exactly what Thomas did to Anne Boleyn.

And it makes sense.

[frivolouscake]

[hiddenxrituals]

closed starter for @frcmbelow (auden) location: error 404 file not found

"How're you cemetery friends?" Stephen gently elbowed Auden in the ribs, giving her a grin. "What a sorry pair we are. Your friends are all in the ground, and my girlfriend is on the internet. If it wasn't for each other, we might not ever talk to a physical human being. Not counting Wendy, of course."

[oldmanbracket]

Sexiest Old Man Tournament: Round 2

Who is hotter?

[misscromwellsmonocle]

Promised (1990) by Stephen Scott Young

[hellomadamebutterfly]

Gardiner just sitting there smizing

[cosmic-walkers]

there was something so intense about stephen staring at thomas during the whole interrogation scene, as if he was attempting to find this "evil" man he had conjured up in his mind. the lies stephen has fed himself over the years about thomas all amounted to this moment, and toward the end, not only did he realize he was wrong about thomas but you can tell he knew they had made a mistake but he regretted it.

the part where he and thomas were alone together, and thomas spoke to him in a calm, casual manner, as if they were friends also showed that. stephen didn't bite back, or reply to him coldly because he knew he'd messed up. and honestly i think stephen would've rather thomas have been cold and cruel to him in their last conversation, over being friendly. because at least there would be some little justification for what Stephen is doing. but nope, it wasn't there. just thomas talking casually, as if they were still working under wolsey.

aside from knowing that thomas was right - without him all things will fall apart, and they do - from a personal level, you can see how stephen realized that this was a mistake. that last part thomas said, about history judging them, and stephen turned it and said that they all would be judged for what they did - specifically for what they did with thomas. oh, he knew, and he knew he fucked up, he knew they all did. he knew it was a mistake, and that they were essentially putting an innocent man to death.

more importantly, as the episode went on, this was a small dick move from norfolk and i think stephen was starting to realize that. just how ridiculous it was, and how he was roped into it as well.

[mametupa]

Not an empty threat.