#Siege of Toulon
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Napoleon's great battles: The siege of Toulon, 1793.
by LegendesCarto
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Napoleon (2023)
#napoleon#joaquin phoenix#film#ridley scott#cinema#gif#gifs#napoleon bonaparte#napoléon bonaparte#napoléon#bonaparte#toulon#france#malta#europe#european#napoleonic#french revolutionary wars#siege of toulon#history
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There he is
Toulon — 1793
#siege of Toulon#Toulon#France#battle of Toulan#Napoleon#napoleon bonaparte#french revolution#napoleonic#illustration#battle#art#1700s#18th century#history#historical art#drawing#military#military history#frev#napoleonic wars#historical#uniform
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I know right? I was speechless too! She's amazing! She's also the ACTUAL owner of the nickname "Madame Sans-Gêne"💅💅💅
Apparently napoleon was neither the most interesting or weirdest person at the siege of Toulon
That honor goes to Marie-Thérèse Figueur
There was just straight up a woman fighting there. And not even “oh she disguised herself as a man mulan-style” just … an out and about woman
I just learned about her today and how did I not hear about her before
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Napoleon - Movie Review
Disclaimers: 1. Quotes by Napoleon are not from the movie. 2. The movie has been criticized for possible historical inaccuracies and I have not corroborated historical details. Power is my mistress. I have worked too hard at her conquest to allow anyone to take her away from me. – Napoleon Bonaparte In the movie “Napoleon”, writer David Scrapa and director Ridley Scott tell the story of…
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#David Scarpa#French Revolution#Joaqin Phoenix#Napolean Bonaparte#Ridley Scott#Siege of Toulon#Vanessa Kirby
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Research for Historical Fiction
Researching for historical fiction can seem like a daunting prospect. It’s hard to know where to begin when you want to write in detail about a specific event. Here’s how I do my research, im case anyone else finds it useful.
Initial Steps
My first port of call is usually Wikipedia, despite the fact it can be rather inaccurate at times. It’s very useful for getting an over-arching idea of what you are researching, as well as any places where you want to know more. For example, I was recently researching the Siege of Toulon in 1794, and the Wikipedia article highlighted the fact I needed to know more about where the French forts were positioned, and get a better idea of the tactics.
Next I head over to YouTube and this lovely hellsite. YouTube often has useful explanatory videos, and I find having visual maps explained to me much more useful that reading text on the same subject. As for here, there are many lovely people specialising in historical eras, and it’s not hard to find them and ask questions.
Digging Deeper
Once I have a rough idea of the thing in researching, I spend some time looking for specific details I want to incorporate.
I Always love using books, and I’m lucky enough to have several on most of the subjects I’m interested in. For the Toulon research, I looked through my biographies of Napoleon, to see what they had to offer on N’s reactions to the incompetency of the generals, positioning of forts etc. This also gave me the names of some of the more useful forts, and notes about Larrey, who I wanted to add into the story as a long term character.
Then, I started scouring the internet, using both the English and the French versions (although I’m awful at reading French), as I wanted to find out how many cannon were stationed at each fort, and where on earth French headquarters were. This took ages, and was very frustrating, but I did eventually find the things I was looking for.
Remembering all the Facts
Doing research is of little use if you forget what you’ve learnt, so I find taking notes as I go along is invaluable. I prefer to use pen and paper, but digital notes, or voice messages, work just as well, so long as you have the facts stored somewhere useful.
Remember! Not all your research needs to go into your story. I always leave facts out, because they just don’t fit into the arc of a chapter, or it doesn’t seem necessary to the plot. The point of research is to build up a believable world for the characters to live in, not to repeat history word for word.
I hope this helps, and happy writing!
#writeblr#creative writing#historical fiction#research#the Siege of Toulon#MR#A Monsterous Regiment of Women#writing advice
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Little Yellow Emperor: the Life of Napoleon in LEGO
The Battle of Waterloo Domain is hosting a LEGO exhibit called "THE LEGEND OF NAPOLEON IN LEGO BRICKS." As a recovering LEGO addict and an eternal fan of 18th/19th-century French history, I simply had to go. After successfully bribing the husband with beer and fries and the children with waffles, we made the trip today.
The exhibition was smaller than I expected, but some of the builds were genuinely impressive. It traces Napoleon's life from his birth in Corsica to his death on Saint Helena—a neat, bite-sized way to introduce his story, and a fun way of recreating history. However, one thing that did bug me a bit: while the audio guide is available in multiple languages, all the wall texts are in French. In a trilingual country, especially at such a touristy site, that feels like a bit of a miss (plus, it gave the Dutch-speaking husband an excuse to grumble).
Gripes aside (1), the exhibit was a lot of fun. Here are my favourite builds.
1. The Campaign in Egypt
This recreation of Napoleon’s Egyptian campaign is absolutely brilliant. The photos don’t do it justice—every detail, from the Sphinx to the busy French camp, is spot on. It's also huge and apparently took close to 70 hours to build! @chickenmadam can you spot Kléber?
2. Napoleon's Coronation as Emperor
The second build, depicting Napoleon's coronation, may be smaller, but it's full of impressive details. I especially loved the grumpy expression on Pope Pius VII’s face, along with the equally unimpressed looks from the rest of the clergy—it really adds character to the scene!
3. The Coup on 18th Brumaire
Again not a very big build but... those red capes... the hats... the outfits —need I say more?
4. Napoleon asks Josephine for a Divorce
This moment is supposed to be, by all accounts, heart-wrenching for everyone involved—Napoleon asking Josephine for a divorce. But, since it’s LEGO, it ends up looking unintentionally hilarious.
5. The Crossing of the Berezina River
This is another brilliant build, capturing what was arguably Napoleon's greatest military disaster. While it's not as large as the Egypt campaign scene, it’s packed with intricate details that make it just as interesting.
6. Napoleon's Civil Code
Yes. He has a GIANT parchment.
7. Daddy Napoleon and his son
Because the King of Rome has a purple teddybear and a grumpy statue of his dad in his room...
Bonus: The Battle of the Arcole Bridge
Not particularly impressive per see as a build, but this is one of my favourite moments in Napoleon's story, so... why not?
Notes
(1) Yes, they recreated the siege of Toulon. No, Bonbon isn't in it. That makes me sad.
#frev#napoleonic era#napoleon bonaparte#napoleon#history#lego#napoleon ii#french revolution#amateurvoltaire’s travel diary
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Final results are in and the Les Mis fandom predictably won, but from an early dominant lead the Toulon bagne took only 50% of the votes. Who knew so many people were thinking about the 1793 Siege of Toulon!
smh that the Blockade of Toulon gets so little respect. You people want to go on vacation in Toulon? Toulon?? That place that is always being besieged and blockaded, where they threw Jean Valjean in prison for 19 years??
#toulon#got a lot of napoleonic types following me why am I surprised by the siege of toulon#a lot of toulon news is sports-related yet only one european yelling about sportsball in the notes#i forgot there's a bit about toulon prison in captain marryat's novel 'peter simple'#granted there is a lot of wacky plot going on at the same time
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Don't tell my friend that I did not sleep immediately (she will scold me XD). But what is Napoleon and Junot about? Gib their interactions, their history, the tension, their secrets, what you thought about them, what is good and bad about them, headcanons, some things that you love about them, anything that will save my curiosity before I go to sleep in 4:30 am 👀
That is all. Have a nice day/evening 😌
HELLO!! sorry for my late reply I have the cold and I was figuring how to write this without sounding too crazy 😭😭 thank you @whatever-whatsoever for reminding me to check my inbox 🤩 YESSS NAPJUNO ASK!!!! THANK YOU ❤️❤️ I'll have to give a super abbreviated version because they had so much history *sniff* 🥺
I may yap more about my personal head canons and why I love them in a separate post hehehe👅
disclaimer: I don't claim to be objective or an historian as this is very napjuno-biased :P English is not my first language so there will be many grammatical mistakes😭
I feel like I should first mention that Napoleon and Junot had a long history of correspondence throughout their lifetime. And Junot kept every. single. letter Napoleon wrote to him. Unfortunately none of these letters exist anymore because Napoleon sent a lackey to have them burned the moment Junot committed suicide. (I WILL NEVER FORGIVE NAPS FOR THIS 😭) so most of what we know about their relationship is secondhand from Junot's wife, Laure Junot's (Duchesse d'Abrantes) memoirs. She's also not the most reliable person so it's possible she might heavily exaggerated on some stuff
As for the letters, it's always been up for debate why Napoleon wanted them gone but my personal headcanon is they must've been written in a very romantic tone... and Napoleon was so heavily trying to suppress his feelings for Junot and burning those letters was a way of burying their relationship once and for all
OKAY, SO A BRIEF HISTORY ON NAPJUNO!!
Junot's fated meeting with Napoleon began in 1793! He was already promoted to a segreant when they met and Napoleon was already a General at the age of 24(!). It was during the Siege of Toulon that Naps had asked for someone who had beautiful handwriting to dictate a letter and Junot volunteered to write what he dictated before a cannon fire sprayed it with dirt. Naps was so impressed by his coolness that he made Junot his secretary and Aide-de-camp, and soon they'd become inseparable
soon after Toulon, Napoleon was accused of treason for his connections to Augustin Robespierre and was jailed. Junot , of course freaking out about this wrote him letter to offer an escape but Naps declined.
^ this illustration by Jacques Onfoy de Bréville represents one of their "leisure moments" together circa 1794-95
so after a little while Napoleon got married and found his fortune, Junot continued to follow him to his legendary Italian and Egyptian campaigns. In Egypt, he was promoted to General but he was actually not too happy with this since this means he'll be away from Napoleon often. There's also this famous (or infamous?) incident where he challenged General Lanusse to a duel ,simply because he opposed Napoleon's leadership , with this words :
«We must fight; it is essential that only one of us survive. I hate you because you hate the man that I love and admire as much as God, if not more»
sounds like a chivalric romance doesn't it? :3 It was also during this campaign there were rumours within the army comparing Naps and Junot to "Hadrian and Antinous" . of course Junot does nothing to dispel those rumours 🤓 Poor guy got wounded in the stomach and Naps didn't visit him until the last minute.
Napoleon wasn't able to take Junot with him when he left Egypt and by the time Junot made it back to France in 1800, Napoleon was already First Consul and the power differences between them already put a strain on their relationship. This was further exacerbated once Naps became Emperor.
When Naps sent Junot to Portugal , he wrote a bunch of desperate letters begging him to reappoint him as his aide-de-camp again and Napoleon once confronted to Junot's wife about the letters he wrote to him (I'm like 99% sure it probably sounded more romantic than the ones he wrote to her) . it got to the point that Laure Junot ahd to admit that Junot possibly loved Napoleon more than her and their children.
Junot was often sent away from Napoleon during from like c. 1806-1810ish? and didn't interact much except by correspondence (I think) I'm going to skip over the Portugal /Spain period
Okay so by the Russian Campaign of 1812, Junot pretty much fell out of favour from Naps and the consequences of Junot's actions almost completely destroyed their relationship. By this time period, Junot's mental and physical health was very, very fragile from his campaigns in Portugal & Spain and Napoleon was no longer the Napoleon he knew back in their youth. Napoleon was furious and even shamed him on the military bulletin. Junot was devastated at this and the thought of losing Napoleon's friendship was unbearable after 20 years of being devoted to him.
After he returned to France from Russia, there are several anecdotes mentioning how he would wanderlessly mutter out loud that “The Emperor no longer loves me” in his apartments😭 Napoleon's love for him was all that mattered😭😭💔
There's this scene where Duroc (Napoleon's Grand Marshal of the Palace) and another friend visited Junot to comfort him and this happened:
Junot obviously didn't believe the Emperor still loved him of course💔
Soon after spending some time resting and with his family, he was appointed Governor of Illyria. (I think Naps sent him there because he wanted him out of France but Idk). His insanity finally set in and there's this infamous incident where Junot attended the ball completely naked except for his medals and hat and his battle wounds were on full display...
Soon after that, he had to be forcefully be sent back to his father's home in Montbard. It was there where he committed suicide by jumping out the window.
💔
Junot's last letter to Napoleon is heartbreaking by the way....
“I who love you with the affection of a savage for the sun, I who am entirely yours. Well then: This eternal war that we must fight for you, I WANT NO MORE OF IT! I WANT PEACE! I want finally to repose my tired head, my sore limbs … to enjoy that which I earned … with my BLOOD! The blood of an honest man, of a good Frenchman, of a true patriot. I therefore ask, at last, for that tranquility that I earned through twenty-two years of effective service and seventeen wounds from which my blood has flowed for my country, and for your glory.
Like I mentioned in the beginning, soon after the news of Junot's demise reached the public, Napoleon immediately sent someone to his house in Paris where his wife and brother-in-law were at and forcibly searched through Junot’s home to seize and burn his letters.
Oh yeah there's more but I'll leave it at that for now </3 LIKE WHAT THE HELL NAPS WHY DID YOU BURN THE LETTERS 😭😭Like they must've been fucking crazy man,,, omg sorry this keeps me up at night 😭
they make me so
Junot's ending was sooo tragic.... he was definitely a Greek tragedy-esque figure😢 He possibly died believing Napoleon hated him when that wasn't the case. Napoleon, despite reprimanding Junot very harshly for Junot's actions (non-actions?) during the Russian campaign, he still had a soft spot for him.
I also think of like how his life would've been better without meeting Napoleon. But also thinking again how much Junot treasured his meeting with Napoleon.... ough they're so painful sdkjskdljdhljhdjfhdkjhfdj excuse me while I combust
NapJuno was basically like painful unrequited love slow burn over 2 decades . Or maybe it wasn't completely unrequited? I like to think Napoleon was in denial and constantly tried to suppress his feelings for Junot 😔😔😔 anyway Junot was so delulu... (he's my precious delulu cat) he kept hoping Napoleon would still love him like he used too pre-Emperor days. Of course those days will never come back. I guess he was always living in the past while Naps moved on 🥲💔
well even if Napoleon doesn't love him at least I do 😤
as my friend @ promises-of-paradise once said, I think Junot was almost definitely romantically obsessed with Napoleon. Like actual romantic love (I'm not even being delusional this is what I truly believe). Whether they actually did anything together is up for debate, but it’s clear that Junot’s feelings for Naps were a lot more intense than a regular friendship.
also I highly recommend reading these posts regarding Junot and NapJuno's relationship:
The NapJuno bible of course: https://erenow.org/modern/napoleonic-friendship-military-fraternity-intimacy-and-sexuality/4.php
BTW THERE'S A NAPJUNO RPF WRITTEN AND PUBLISHED IN A FRENCH MAGAZINE BACK IN 1926!!!! I JUST NEED TO FIND THE LINK (it's also in French)
and Laure Junot's memoirs! it's available on the internet and she (and imo rightfully) suggests Napoleon and Junot were possibly incredibly intimate during their broke days. Girl was the OG napjuno shipper istg
~~
If any of my fellow NapJuno fanatics want to add info about them more please do so!!! I'm probably forgetting some stuff 😭
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Junot's early life and character
-From the book "La Generale Junot, Duchesse d'Abrantès, d'après ses lettres, ses papiers et son 'journal intime' inédits" by Joseph Turquan, a biography of Laure Junot featuring previously unpublished information given to the author by Georges Aubert, Junot's grandson.
The book is from 1901, and therefore is a little dated in some regards, but overall creates a good portrait of Laure and Jean-Andoche Junot.
General Junot was very young, but, despite his campaigns, despite the high rank to which he had reached, he was younger than his age, especially younger than his rank indicated. The first consul knew this well and that is why he told him to “grow ten years older;” for this also that he advised him to marry as soon as possible. The dignity of existence among those he wanted to call to the first jobs of the Republic was in his program of government.
We would be very mistaken if we imagined the General Junot as a serious general of our time. He was only twenty-nine years old when he was called to the command of Paris, and he had a bit of the tone of the hussars mauvais sujets: General Fournier, General Lasalle especially, this scoundrel of distinction, were the great masters of this kind, and it was on them that the turbulent and untamed youth of the army was enthusiastically modelled. But, in society, Junot affected the tone of the best company.
Born in 1771 to a lower middle-class family, in Bussy-le-Grand, in the Côte-d'or department, Junot began his studies in Montbard and continued them at the college of Châtillon-sur-Seine. There his comrade was the young Marmont: they were to be the first two aides-de-camp of General Bonaparte. Junot's parents dreamed of a cassock for their son, said Marmont, a robe and a lawyer's cap, wrote the Duchess of Abrantes. But the young man had another ideal: his ardent nature in no way fit with the tedious study of the pandects and the institutes: the struggles of the bar would never have been enough to satisfy the combative mood of the future general which felt flowing in his veins "soldier's blood", to use an expression from General de Ségur, and not the juice of stamped paper. Her father did not know how to curb such an ardent nature: he felt that he was wasting his time trying to subdue him with sophistry and a round of leather in a prosecutor's office. Fortunately, the Revolution came and rescued them both by ridding the father of his devilish son and opening the most astonishing perspectives to his activity. As the very idea of the stamped paper made him nauseous - and it is not I who will reproach him for it - as he only understood the sophistry with his sword in his hand, he felt more keenly than anyone, with his fiery nature, the generous ardor which then vibrated all that there were in France of young hearts enthusiastic about freedom, grandeur and glory. At the call of the homeland in danger, Andoche Junot enlisted in the second battalion of Côte-d'Or volunteers, so famous since for the number of remarkable men who emerged from it.
We will not repeat here how Junot distinguished himself from General Bonaparte at the siege of Toulon. The episode is classic and everyone knows it. He owed this success only to himself, to this happy harmony of composure, wit and good grace which is only found in privileged moments of a generous youth. From one day to the next, Junot had acquired personal respect. Also a certain number of brilliant actions have been attributed to him which he was certainly capable of accomplishing, but which he probably did not. A handsome soldier, he was a man who was instinctively and immediately "impulsive" as we say today, and more a slave to his anger, his senses and his whims - like a woman - than to his duties... Nature, in forming him, had forgotten to put the brakes on him that we call character, that strong will which makes us reign over ourselves and, as Goethe said, makes us sovereign over our hearts, - or rather it had made Junot so impetuous, that he had escaped without waiting that she would rivet it to him. Hence the jolts, inconsistencies, lack of balance and frequent derailments in his life. The general was no more bothered to analyse his impressions - although they appeared vividly on his face which changed as soon as a thought agitated him - than to repress his first movement or his instincts. With insane bravery, he never backed down from danger, he even sought it out, he took pleasure in it, a little by nature, a little also by attitude, to set an example to the troops certainly, but also for a lot of admirers. This is a very chivalrous hero's coquetry that we would be reluctant to reproach him for: we can regret, however, that Junot did not bring, in his ordinary habit, this coolness and this calm which distinguished him so astonishingly on the battlefield: in life he was always excited.
From each of his campaigns, Junot had brought back glorious scars and these imposed on men a respect that his youth would not have imposed enough on him. His audacity was such that General Thiébault, his chief of staff during his Portuguese campaign, wrote: “A hundred men like Junot would have crossed hell". And this at a time when bravery was an almost vulgar thing and heroism was common currency.
Junot was one of the most wounded in the army, but the most serious of his wounds was a saber blow, a souvenir of the battle of Loano, which cut half of his face, from the temple to the mouth. If Junot collected saber blows, those he delivered were much more numerous and the unfortunates who received them did not have the leisure to glory in them: his grip was too heavy. “Hey! Well, Monsieur le sabreur..." said Napoleon when he approached him. A swordsman, and "of the first number", as Balzac wrote, who knew him well through hearsay, that is, in reality, what General Junot was.
A good boy, moreover, easy and pleasant relationships, faithful to his friends more than he will be to his wife, devoted to his family... Unfortunately quite forgetful, light, a little childish sometimes and, like the children, violent, hotheaded, hardly calculating the consequences of his words or his actions and, moreover, very abandoned in his morals. But let's not be unfair or too rigorous, they were those of his age and time. He was too much of a man of first impulses to repress himself externally and control his inclinations. Knowing oneself was not his doing; know others, no more. A general, he seemed to have remained a second lieutenant, sometimes even a non-officer, and his character never matured. You have to certainly make allowance for the fire of youth, that of the military customs of the time, which were not the most recommendable, and that of intoxication. Ultimately, General Junot was better than his morals. There was, however, a little incompatibility of mood between his dizzy youth and the high functions of aide-de-camp to General Bonaparte. These functions were perhaps too heavy a load for Junot's shoulders: his past, his studies, his education had not sufficiently prepared him for them. Enjoyer of the present moment, like most of the other exploits resulting from the Revolution, of a complexion more sensual than amorous, he took care of women, out of taste no doubt, but also for the sake of fresh air: the Lauzuns, the Tillys, the Richelieus, did not do otherwise; and if he later had a transport of jealousy worthy of Othello, he never had the ecstasies of Saint-Preux with Julie. He even mixed a little brutality with his gallantry. Was this the consequence? Junot had an excessive sensitivity, unhealthy rather than delicate, that of men who abuse their nervous system, become soggy and become slaves to their impressions instead of remaining ill-beings of them. He had, basically, very good principles, but the mistake of not conforming his conduct to his principles. This is not a rare thing: do you know many men who are otherwise? But, as a soldier, he should have remembered this maxim that Sully liked to repeat: “He who wants to acquire glory and honor must try to dominate his pleasures and never allow them to dominate him.” He prided himself on literature, posed as a connoisseur of art, theater and music. There was something glorious, vain, and witty in him: piquant quips, a few happy words had earned him a reputation as a witty conversationalist: aptly placed quotations from Virgil had also earned him a reputation for knowledge. In fact, it was at the theater, where he went every evening, that the best part of his education was spent. Sensing what he lacked in terms of education, he had the good spirit to seek to perfected through contact with some distinguished comrades, like Marmont, like Duroc, whose manners he copied. Generous, in no way petty, he very gallantly threw money out the window, like the great lords of the ancien regime, ate three hundred oysters for his lunch, because the fashion was for gluttony, had the most beautiful horses in Paris, played big games and ruined himself on dancers. Tall and well built, very similar in face and somewhat in appearance to General Rapp, but more slender than him, he had a pleasant exterior. Such was, in truth, General Junot. I have tried to be fair in drawing this portrait: I have not softened any angle, I have not concealed any fault. I am perhaps too harsh: I believe I am only impartial. I would add that all that the general lacked to be an eminent man was moderation, balance and character, in a word, to have an equal degree of reflection and action. If Napoleon kept him close despite his faults, it was because he had a sort of tenderness for the men who had found themselves associated with his prestigious successes in Italy; it was because he knew that Junot, who had shared with him during the difficult times of his availability, in 1795, the meagre pension he received from his father, was devoted to him body and soul.
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Saw this on Pinterest
The Siege of Toulon 1993
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what i love about my napoleon podcast is that i didn't actually know a lot going in, but all i knew came from british propaganda or from napoleon himself's propaganda, and the truth is so much more interesting and also so insane. the twists, the character arcs, the foreshadowing, the lucky breaks, the destinies that keep meeting, it's almost hard to believe at times. i think if i could make a movie about napoleon, i'd focus on his attempts at radical jacobin politics in corsica, his family's exile and end on the siege of toulon in 1793. what happens next? oh, you know...
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Napoleon at Toulon (The Siege of Toulon) 1793
by Jacques Onfroy de Bréville
#napoléon bonaparte#napoleon bonaparte#toulon#siege of toulon#art#napoleonic#french revolutionary wars#history#france#french#europe#european#siege#jacques onfroy de bréville#job#illustration#napoleon#bonaparte#napoléon#mediterranean#cannon#cannons#artillery#cannonball#cannonballs
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At the siege of Toulon in 1793, Napoleon (who was then 24 years old) was trying to order the soldiers to move forward, but the battery was in a very exposed position and many thought it was a suicidal order. How did Napoleon deal with this situation? He renamed the battery to “Batterie des hommes sans peur” or Battery of the men without fear. Turns out men will risk anything to not be seen as cowards because they all volunteered to take the battery after that.
#and then Napoleon got stabbed#but at least he didn’t have fear lol#long haired Napoleon tales and adventures#siege of Toulon#Napoleon#napoleonic#Toulon#napoleon bonaparte#french revolution#frev#napoleonic era#first french empire#french empire#france#job#job the illustrator
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Thinking rn of when Elizabeth Taylor, at 37, wanted to play anne boleyn in Anne of the thousands days and was told she was “too long in the tooth” and this was like, nodded and agreed with even by feminist scholar Susan bordo in creation of Anne boleyn
And then I had to go see Napoleon and see a geriatric Joaquim Phoenix limp across the siege of Toulon. A near 50 year old man playing a 23 year old, even as he flirts with a woman who is meant to be 6 years his senior but is actually precisely the age Josephine should be, in her 30s, in contrast to his, again, late 40s.
And it’s like hm.
Hmm.
Hmmmmmmm.
You can play Young Napoleon at 23 when you’re 50
But you can’t play Anne Boleyn, who may have died when she was about 32, at 37. I wonder why. Hmm. I wonder. I wonder,, I wonder why that is, hmmmmmm
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