#Rhaenyra's characterization

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One reason uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriages were legal is so there would be a legal reason to take a woman's inheritance. Just taking the woman's place in the will when she is the legitimate heir is illegal in Westeros.

Serena and Sansa Stark marrying their uncles.

As for whether Rhaenyra would be a good ruler, I don't think it's fair to say that she would be a worse ruler than her predecessors. We know that Visenya and Rhaenys also enjoyed wealthy clothes and silks. Every ruler in a feudalistic society is going to focus on their comfort. That's just how that works. Feudalism is a shitty society. Every noble, Targaryen or otherwise, will be tainted by this fact.

The 3 Targs were not colonizers, but there is a common understanding in the fandom that the Dornish are brave heroes for resisting Valyrian conquest in lieu of their historical avoidance from actual Valyrian colonization several hundred years ago when Nymeria save dher people and did her own conquests of what would be known as "Dorne" to have a home for her people. Rhaenys the Conqueror takes on/slides into a sort of antagonist role when she tries and fails to conquer Dorne herself, a slip of the estimation of Dorne's defenses and reliance on dragons. Some might say this is Rhaenys and the rest of the conquerors having had overestimated themselves or at least being too ambitious and payin the price, especially wen we know Raenys' deat ad a profound effect on her too-young son Aenys. So much so that he regressed developmentally and possibly took on a lot of psychological/brain damage from that trauma...which possibly could have affected his thoguht processing or prioritization later. And at the very least, the Targs appear to pay the rpice of war, losing one of teir own, a critical political player, court favorite, as well as a sort of balance-key and center of all their relationships.

Conquest is not innately morally neutral, people die and war is largely indiscriminate on who dies, gets raped, loses everyting, etc. apart from it mainly bein lowborn people. Not even the Martells escape this, not just for Nymeria's case, but the later Red Princes and Doran Martell's conspiracies and the mess up with Quentyn likely raising new feuds in Dorne.

Literally EVERYONE has a bone and has no morally pure or very few have a true morally superiro position, wther that be by will or a negligence of responsibility. The system quite clearly allows for little else. also, Visenya had a perosn with dwarfism as her court jester a she also had created the Kingsguard.

Our understanding that feudalism is wrong doesn't meant that the author wants us to just wave off whatever points he's communicating in the story.

YEP.

person pessi is responding to: I agree that Viserys named Rhaenyra as heir. But he was an idiot and didn’t think to codify that into law; that the ruler could be a woman. While in a perfect world her reign would go uncontested, that’s very clearly not the world asoiaf is set in. pessi: There was no need for it to be codified into law, the law was already the eldest legitimate child is heir. Yeah, the Andals had a precedent of passing over the woman, but it was never a law. There were many cases of women being the heads of ruling houses. [...] Yes, Viserys should have made more effort to support Rhaenyra in KL.

Self explanatory, one can review AWoIaF to see. AND see GRRM's own words below abt Westerosi succession:

Also, Viserys wasn't the only person Rhaenyra would learn from. She sat at small council meetings, so she would learn from every member. Rhaenys was like a second mother to Rhaenyra, so she would have had a hand in her training as well. Rhaenyra was decisive but she also tried to avoid a war. So clearly she wasn't just emulating Viserys.

EXACTLY.

"Rhaenyra arguing that she gets the throne because her daddy said so is so pathetic and weak😃"

So say Rhaenyra's braindead antis. Do these people understand how literally any monarchy works? Do they know what the show's setting is? Do you think if you tap on their heads it echos?

Of course Rhaenyra is the rightful heir because Viserys said so. That's how succession and inheritance works. God help these people's family members if any of them end up in a will. They'll start crying and complaining if they don't get enough of grandpa's money. Then they'll probably sue them get laughed out of court.

Like this isn't Rhaenyra and Aegon fighting over a toy or a car. This is the future of a fucking kingdom and millions of people. The king/ruler has the right to choose who they believe is most worthy to rule/who has more right.

Rhaenyra was trained for most of her life to rule. Aegon sat around on his drunk ass when he wasn't raping girls. Who in this situation seems more prepared? The person who sits the IT decides the fate of the entire realm. This is Medieval feudalism, not children fighting over who gets a turn with a toy.

Learn some media comprehension and maybe even try to see around all that misogyny, internalized or otherwise.

[horizon-verizon]

I find it funny that TG is bugging out about Rhaenyra saying “a son for a son” because Jaehaerys ended up being murdered but if you wanna get technical, Rhaenyra lost two children, Lucerys AND Visenya. Technically, she’s owed another sooooo. Jaehaery’s death didn’t phase Aemond at all, she wants her son’s killer punished rightfully.

I personally was confused by the son-for-a-son…bc it was basically a repetition of her in epi 1 when she was like "I want Aemond", and I thought that she'd get over all that as the show has thus far made it seem with her choosing of her own free will to meet up with the woman who is protecting the person who killed her son and committed kinslaying....but then I remembered this was HotD and it all made nonsense.

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Master Post of Anti-Criston Cole-ism

He was Never Raped or SA-ed

A) [HotD] HotD's Episode 4, from the Actor and Writers

i)

🔗LINK to Entertainment Weekly Article that Describes Frankel & Writers Making this Scene Consensual Sex Scenes where Criston "Chooses" to Forget his Vows

Neither of these reveal that either the actor nor the writers or directors wrote the sex scene to be something Criston was afraid of or didn't want. The way it's talked about, with people "discovering" each other and themselves shows consent and enjoyment. Frankel wanted to play out his fear of Criston's own desire to break his own vows and facing the guilt of that; Rhaenyra never pressured him into anything.

REMINDER: He's still not "commonborn" nor Dornish, since:

he has a last name, which peasants don't have AND his father/house is House Cole, stewards of the Dondarrions...the Tyrells at one point were stewards to House Gardner in the Reach & they were still nobles of that time, stewards don't mean full fledged "servants"

Blackhaven is in the Stormland part of the Dornish Marches, not the Dornish part of the Dornish Marches...Samwell Tarly's family's castle is in the foothill of a part of the Dornish Marches, ....Barristan Selmy's family's castle, Harvest Hill, is based in the Dornish Marches in Stormlander territory, so is Barristan Selmy Dornish? Cole is a Stormlander!

Marchers hate Dornish people more than other nonDornish Westerosi do...Criston said his dad was a steward of the nonDornish Dondarrions...HotD has never shown us whether either of his parents are Dornish by origin so what proof do we have he is Dornish even in the show?!!! And we see no discrimination (hint or overt) the court has against Cole...

lets' say that Cole was Dornish...the Velaryons are black and realisitically, even rich Black people do not manage to avoid subtle racial discrimination (there's a black woman on TikTok from a wealthy family that talks about it, idk her name)...so if Criston faces racism and the Velaryons don't either the writers are incompetent or don't know racism

Not only is this a misreading of what the Dornish Marches are on the HotD writers'/producers' part, it's a misreading or understanding of race either in medieval times or the modern day, AND people have tried to use a supposed racial disparity b/t Rhaenyra (Valyrian-Targ princess) to argue that Cole (the racially-inferior) felt racial pressure as well to comply to sleep with her and avoid censure or punishment if she blabs...as if his race would give him the right to sleep with a teen girl who some have argued was also very drunk here-- even if Criston was Dornish!

ii) [HotD] HotD's Episode 4, from the actual Episode

People don't know what SA or rape actually looks like...can we just, please?...

B) "If the Roles were Reversed" [HotD AND the Original Story]

i)

Rhaenyra didn't "make" him do anything b/c she doesn't have the ability to take on that new level of risk. So much protest using the "if the genders were reversed", and yet no acknowledgment or breakdown of what their respective unique positions are.

A male heir =/= a female heir in terms of power and privilege, gender really matters even here, as every source on the matter--whether HotD or the original story--has made every single minute to point out and emphasize...the only reason we are even talking about the Dance is that it was a group of people arguing that no woman should go before a man inn any line of succession which comes from the belief that women are inherently insufficient military leaders. And female chastity is a whole concept in of itself where the woman/girl must be sexually "pure" as to ensure that a man's and his family's lineage remains "proven" to be inherited by someone blood-connected to them. To preserve that wealth and privilege. etc., within that family. Female chastity - female "obedience" or submission to male supremacy.

Women could never be knights so they can never be Kingsguard.

Brienne is not a knight...yet[?], and she exists YEARS after the Dance; even if there were female monarchs before, check out real history for how medieval people regarded female rulers if they didn't happen to be very "good" ones...I mean just check out Juana I of Castile!

We can never equalize these situations in matter of gender because this society structures on the inequality of its genders.

A World of Ice and Fire shows us glaring examples of women over men being brutally sidelined or physically attacked to make way for male leaders or candidates (Shiera Blackwood, Agnes Blackwood, that unnamed Lannister woman who had to marry a non-Lannister man so he could take her name just so he could lead the Lannister house instead of her, Argella Durrandon, Marla Sunderland); Fire and Blood has a bunch of girls raped, mutilated, SA-ed or sexually manipulated so the men can inch their way towards power or to just feel in control (Cassandra Baratheon, Lucinda Penrose, those Tumbleton 8-year-olds, the septas, etc.).

Making as if sexual violence against men or just general violence against men is treated the same, as frequent, and socially justified as violence against women and girls both in real life and in the ASoIaF/HotD/GoT universes is disingenuous. As long as we live in a society where enough people think a woman's body is never totally her own, it never will be.

ii) Let's play with this "Reversal" Anyway:

a) We already see Rhaenyra-Criston in the version of her approaching him...

In F&B, we already have one verison of what happened b/t them in Mushroom telling us of a situation of Rhaenyra approaching Criston and Criston denying her, with no material consequences for him...and he freely decides to hate and try to destroy her anyway ("A Question of Succession"):

Even IF Rhaenyra approached Criston and in this way, she does not go to Viserys to ruin Cole or do anything else to him. She sleeps with Harwin instead. And why doesn't she go to Viserys to fuck Criston's life up? Bc he has been her trusted guard for ages, but also because of what I say below in section b) below and i) above.

Reminder, Viserys in both the show and book forces Rhaenyra to marry Laenor, and book!her explicitly is rumored to say she wanted Daemon. She faces censure or punishment, not Cole.

Show!Rhaenyra has also been "friends"/friendly with Cole for years; what reason do we have to expect or fear that she'd complain to Viserys? How much does Criston really expect Rhaenyra does, since he's the said friend in her "confidence"?

b) Occam's razor

Since women cannot be Kingsguard in Westeros, the female-Cole would either be a lower-ranked noble woman or she would be like Jonquil Darke, the female sworn-shield of Alysanne Targaryen (who still wasn't part of the Kingsguard). JD was also a Darkling bastard.

It's so very unlikely that even if female-Cole become the guard to young/older male-Rhaenyra.

That's inconceivable to these people. Why would the probably already-sword trained male-Rhaenyra need a personal female-guardsman when they'd have an actual Kingsguard knight (still all male) as the male-Rhaenyra's guard before a female warrior is ever considered? This is the mindest of these royals and nobles, btw.

And again, Jonquil was the protector of Alysanne, not Jaehaerys. But Jaehaerys did use Jonquil to stop Saera from running away, and this proves that Jonquil's "final boss" is and always has been Jaehaerys, aka, the Monarch, not the person she was protecting. If a male-Rhaenyra approached a female-Cole (but not a bastard) who was a sort of Jonquil Darke person, even with that female-Cole being well-versed in swordsmanship or anything physical to defend herself, the social consequences of that woman sleeping with a royal man while not being married to him is still as real and worse for her than for him. She'd be less willing to fully engage with him and dread the consequences of his growing angry with her.

What if female-Cole was just a regular noblewoman, either ranked high from a prestigious family/Great House (Starks, Martell, Hightowers, Lannisters, Manderlys] or from a lower ranked or not-as-prestigious and influential family (Tarlys, Selmys, Boltons, Wyls)? And male-Rhaenyra took a liking to female-Cole but didn't want to or expect to marry them?

Because female-Cole is a female noble and had grown up knowing that women & girls are socially condemned for actually practicing sexual autonomy, they'd be much more cautious and vulnerable to censure in either scenario:

If the female-Cole was from a more prestigious or "Great" House, male-Rhaenyra wouldn't as likely approach them unless they thought they'd be good for marriage because that house is powerful and important enough to put some pressure on them IF they ever found out. An affair is very possible, and depending on female-Cole's age and assessment of her own abilities and worth growing up female, we don't know whether they'd be willing to pursue a true consensual affair with male-Rhaenyra without there being a hope or guarantee for marriage. Because, like Lysa Tully, they still run the risk of tainting their family/house' image and face punishment or abuse from their own family if such affairs were made public. (If I have to explain Lysa Tully to people, they either forgot what happens b/t her & Petar Baelish or never read the bks, and if the latter they should not speak on anything to do with any character in things like this that requires lore knowledge AND some objectivity. Or they don't see what happened to her as "a big deal"...) Still, there is room for her to not want the attention because women are not a monolith of the exact same personalities or circumstances for us to believe every single woman would go for a real affair regardless of there being a desire or expectation of marriage. Thus what I describe below for lower ranked women/girls still counts. If anything, the stakes can be said to be higher because her family's prestige or power is so high that they could also take the path of blaming her. Therefore, a woman/girl of this group could still feel cornered.

If female-Cole came from a lower/less prestigious house, male-Rhaenyra is more interested & likelier of pursuing an affair or making female-Cole their paramour/mistress. Same situation, but the girl has even less reason to believe that there would be a marriage bc her house' rank/prestige/powers are so low for a possible marriage to the future King. She'd have to be either be mentally incapacitated (Priscella Hogg), under another immense pressure, or very young to believe that. So in this case, there is a stronger likelihood that if she sleeps with male-Rhaenyra, it's because she was cornered or felt she couldn't avoid him and had no assurances to avoid him later on. Or that he'd later feel slighted and begin rumors of her in court and her reputation gets ruined either way.

in either case, because male-Rhaenyra is a man while female-Cole isn't and men are far more likely to use physical force to intimidate or push a woman down then the reverse; men on average feel entitled to women's bodies' and attention, what more a royal prince like Aegon & Aemond? (I didn't use these examples by accident: that 12 yr old "paramour" Septon Eustace informs us and Alys Rivers)

And male-Rhaenyra would be the heir, still. There would be no doubt against male-Rhaenyra because she'd be male, male leaders are credited their deserving to rule armies by being male. His path to ascension is clearer than what real-Rhaenyra currently and will have to face. Male-Rhaenyra has no reason to even be all that secretive with female-Cole if he did intend on making her his paramour & he thought he'd get away with just making her his paramour...which is most likely a woman in a much lower "rank" or of a family with much lower powers than some others. Yes, Viserys would say that he is acting "unseemly", he could be called stupid or reckless, and some lords and ladies would think he's acting too licentuously...but no one would begrudge or hate male-Rhaenyra long for extramaritally/premaritally sleeping with a woman of any origin as to say they were a "whore" or try to use this as their primary reason be shouldn't be the next King. The "new" greens don't as much shit to stand on. They'd look silly(ier) for actually using this as a reason to say he shouldn't be King.

Female-Cole has little to no leverage against a male-Rhaenyra in the specific moment of a sexual cornering bc there is simply more risk for her than for him based on their respective genders AND ranking. We can't separate the two, they will inform the other.

Cole-Cole has more social leverage than a woman actually corned by a male higher-ranking noble/royal bc Rhaenyra-Rhaenyra's reputation can be ruined a lot easier than a male heir's. In any iteration, female-Cole rather than Cole-Cole has more risk & pressures in because women are given less grace in events where it's known they extramaritally/premaritally sleep with a man. Because she's already side-eyed or doubted to be a capable leader or worthy, censures against her lack of practicing female obedience and chastity would make her seem less deserving of the throne and give her enemies more fuel to fire their own agenda.

Again, this hierarchical feudal society is built on making gender, class, etc. essential differences that grant individuals privileges over others.

Finally, Criston Cole, his relationship with Rhaenyra, AND their sex /how it happened cannot be compared to a modern-day boss-employee-relationship/sexual harassment sort of sex-reversed MeToo! situation. Viserys is, as many have said on both camps, Criston's real and unequivocal "boss". Really, this whole argument then diminishes what actual SA is and the MeToo! movement's focus on holding mainly male professional superiors accountable for willfully using their positions to assault those under them.

The writers trying to make Rhaenyra the one in with more psychological control over Criston when canonically there' isn't much evidence to support that is very suspicious.

Reasons to Hate Cole

A) Show/House of the Dragon

i)

Let's really think about Criston's suggestion to run away and marry.

The guy said this in episode 5 of season 1:

I've soiled my white cloak. And it's the only thing I have to my fսck¡ng name! I thought if we were married, I might be able to restore it.

Criston's logic reveals he's more concerned about retaining his own sense and perception of his honor and not "honor" in general bc running away to elope would bring great disgrace to both his and Rhaenyra’s families & houses. Not just Rhaenyra herself. If it is Rhaenyra's "duty" to marry Laenor, she would be breaking her vows to become Queen. If she runs away, she arguably broke her vows to "protect" the realm from the Others as by her and Viserys' conversation about Aegon's prophecy. Cole may not have heard this from Rhaenyra, but he didn't want to hear anything from her because all he wanted was for her to go along with what he wanted, not to actually listen to her any misgivings she may have had.

He looked at marriage as a way to "bring back" a sense of honor for himself. Vows hold "sacred" honor. Criston is trying to distance himself from the very idea of freely and willfully “soiling” his cloak by trying to "replace" his brken vows with new marriage vows.

Remeber, he consented to sex with Rhaenyra, so it was his willful decision to sleep with her and "soil" his own "cloak". The writers and the actor, again, both work in the understanding that Cole "chooses to lie with Rhaenyra" [top of this post].

Criston absolutely knows that she can't marry him in the usual, open way and still retain her position as heir or even as part of the royal family. He's asking her to abandon her entire family...let that sink in. It shows a gender disparity that does not justify "if the roles were reversed". Lower-ranked-Female-Cole would never and could never hope to convince the male-Rhaenyra to run away with her and start an entirely new life, abandon both of their families (for marriage specifically) bc he doesn't have to in order to marry her. He may lose some people's respect if he marries her, but the consequences for him versus a female heir are not the same. A female heir would have to run away & not be among other Westerosi nobles, become a peasant, etc. to marry someone like Cole. *EDIT (3/17/24)* Example: Prince Duncan and Jenny of Oldstones. *END OF EDIT*

He was attracted to her, but his main motivation was to escape the shame of his soiled cloak and soiled honor. That his honor is actually a lie, a made-up thing in itself. That he, himself, soiled it and thus he, himself, has made himself a liar.

ii)

He has been living in court being Rhaenyra’s personal guard for years. Some of us thought that he should have known that nobles largely do not follow the same rules that excuse their positions through rumors. That they withhold and lie to protect themselves. (And generally, humans are wont to try to bend their own rules to satisfy their own desires.) 

And so we think that he should have done the same--patiently withhold information and observe what happens so he could adapt to it--while Alicent was getting to ask if Rhaenyra had slept with Daemon, and not if he slept with her.

It may not be faithful to one's vows, but if he actually knew what kind of person Rhaenyra was--that she would never run away with him (as he should after so many years of being with her and thus I think he did know but asked anyway, this he never really cared about her but himself)--then he should have never brought up the suggestion of running away or thought she'd ever marry him. What exactly did he think would happen for him after sleeping w/her? And as I argued, he had much more choice than some may think and took advantage of it. As nobles often do.

And yet, he decides that Rhaenyra is responsible for what he freely chose for himself AND what he could have easily avoided as a man/Kingsguard and her being female. And he does so so he can avoid accountability. Rhaenyra is much less likely to be able to & doesn't want to, once again, "make" him do anything with her. And Rhaenyra does not control Criston Cole's conscience nor his penis nor his reasoning.

Occam's razor again.

iii)

He decides to take it out on the Velaryon boys, as clued by what happens in the training yard of episode 6. It's obvious he refuses to treat them similarly to the green princes and train them at the same level. He's also much more physically rough with Jace than with either green boy. Finally he presses for Aegon to get more violent than necessary against Jace, clearly taking pleasure in vicarious revenge against Rhaenyra.

He's a loser who uses children's pain to inflict his own frustrations. And no, "illegitimate" children are not less human than "trueborn" ones.

B) Fire and Blood (The Original Story)

These are the versions of what happens b/t them, Septon Eustace's vs Mushroom's ("A Question of Succession"):

Really, alinahams already tackled this HERE, so check them out.

Excerpt:

In both versions, Criston is never involved with Rhaenyra in any way. Both versions take care to mention how it was all about Rhaenyra's choices about her life and body that bothered Criston and made him hate her. It's never about Criston being used and discarded. That is what makes Criston an Incel and a villain. Rhaenyra never did anything wrong to him. She didn't do anything to deserve his life long hatred and betrayal. It was his own twisted madonna/whore complex that ruined his friendship with Rhaenyra.

Criston decides to make it his life mission to destroy Rhaenyra because he couldn't handle her making her own decisions, bc honestly even if she (a 16-17 yr old) had decided to try to seduce him as Viserra did with Baelon...did Baelon hold it against Viserra or say that she was a whore or try to condemn her or get back at her for daring to "disturb" him in his grief over his dead wife, their sister, Alyssa?

Even with Baelon being a prince to Criston's Kingsguard, we see that both Viserra & Rhaenyra were desperate to have some sense of control over their own bodies through sex--and for Viserra through a marriage to a more powerful man--because it is through sex and marriage that their entire autonomy is being taken away or suppressed. And some in this fandom have argued that Viserra was bad or amoral for trying to seduce Baelon in his grief, and some have even said she was trying to take advantage of him! But does Baelon think this way or try to "avenge" himself on her? No.

Why try to ruin her and her kids' entire lives? Once more, Rhaenyra, even in Mushroom's version, does not ever complain to Viserys or try to ruin Criston. So....

[allyriadayne]

a bit puzzling to see people saying this is the first time jace has ever externalized his anger in regards to his identity issues and rhaenyra's role in them. granted, in s1 he expressed them towards other people like aemond and aegon esp when the subject was explicitly brought up like in 108, but it's very clear to me that was just another way To Not Get Mad At Mom, It's Fine Actually.

jace has been going on a realization journey since "am i a bastard?" in 106, one where he is going from thinking there's something fundamentally different in him and that it was his fault to maybe it was not his fault but then whose is it? to me it seems like jace can't bear to blame rhaenyra directly at all. she has been his champion, and jace hers in return. to blame rhaenyra is tantamount to treason. "my ruler is my mother and i do not wish it otherwise" because he /can't/ imagine otherwise either. he believes in her claim and that means she has done this for a reason.

in s2 this gives way to a more flawed rhaenyra in jace's eye. she leaves dragonstone without telling anyone twice, doesn't share her plans, doesn't act against the greens, lets daemon go, doesn't call daemon back, doesn't listen to jace, and on top of it all: lets a prophecy on targaryen supremacy lead her when her less than wholly targaryen son stands before her. it has always been rhaenyra's fault and he can't bear it and even to the last he still tries to believe her, denying she would ever do anything to undermine him.

X

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F&B -- "The Red Dragon and the Gold"

Rhaenyra does wear armor when she's landing in King's Landing and takes it from the greens, btw.

And while she was described as not a warrior--

[GRRM on Alysanne and Rhaenyra, the So Spake Martin website]

or a person who does militaristic fighting themselves with a set of fighting skills--

Yes, canon!her could have had at one point had a sword similar to how King Aenys or Daeron II would own swords....swords do not just function as weapons but as status symbols. Elizabeth I wore armor when she made her speech to her soldiers before an incumbent battle about her being a woman with a king's heart and courage. Kings, or male monarchs, are more graced to be synonymous with "default, standard, better sort of ruler" for this time and society, these words and their meanings are tied and coached with each other. what Elizabeth I did was to display her own strength in her playing up a familiar symbol and back it up with her ideas of how she'd protect England and her faith in her soldiers, etc to engender confidence in her in the minsicule and tight space she had room to do so or perceived such.

So yeah, Rhaenyra would use these social starus symbols (sword and armor) AS WELL AS wear her armor to protect herself in case one would try to take her out as she arrives to KL. Her using the sword to fight is a different matter altogether.

Video belongs to HBO/Max/HBOMax, all credits to them! I do not own this video!

Do not mind this post if not interested, this is for Storage!!!!

Some Links:

My Twitter Thread abt the Show De-Femming Characters as if to Castigate or Reduce Femmeness/Femme Womanhood as "Weakness" (Includes Rhaena, and no her hotD Dress is neither constructed very well [or looks so] not does it reflect her family connections/status)

Excerpt/one Tweet in that Thread

It's an established pattern w/this show, to diminish the "femme-ness" of some canonically ult "femme" women to make them seem more "serious", which reinforces the idea that one cannot be female or love to decorate themselves (bc West makes them =) AND be a consummate leader.

BranwynHlfwitch's Tweets abt Rhaenyra with a Sword -- Talks about Other stuff than Rhaenyra's Non-Femme-Femininity:

My comment to said post:

My Tumblr Post abt Rhaenyra w/a Sword:

Other Stuff abt the show Purposefully Denigrating Bk!Rhaenyra's Ultra Femme Presentation and Making it as if IT was her "Sitting Out" or Perpetuating the Idea of her Laziness/Unfitness thru that Rather than Keeping that as More of a Critique of GRRM's Writing: (MINE)

From Twitter Thread abt How Bad the Crowns Were:

Others:

[darksisterk]

Where do people get the idea that Luke was this little sweetheart?? That boy smirked meanly (😈 the epitome of a mini-Daemon) at his scary uncle across the dinner table and had to be held back from trying to claw his face off

[horizon-verizon]

The showrunners just continue to steal from TV Daenerys’s characterization and final storyline to improve their Rhaenyra (a self righteous Targaryen woman with delusions of grandeur ? Groundbreaking), but she remains completely boring and forgettable. Dust in the wind.

And even though TV Daenerys is radically and entirely different from her book counterpart (as much as I love Emilia Clarke), TV Daenerys’ daddy didn’t tell her she’s special, unlike Rhaenyra, Daenerys realized she’s special when she brought back dragons from extinction and walked out of fire utterly unharmed, please can people stop compare her to any of the mid characters from HOTD ??

Speak it again, anon, bc what?! It's quite obvious that they are trying to inject as much a literal magic layer of significance in Rhaenyra's story as magic was in Dany's Or they are trying to make Rhaenyra more "important" in the Targ lineage & "interesting" to those who loved Dany (which is most of the fandom, lets' bfr) to promote the show. And yet at every turn they have also excused D&D's atrocious illogical writing of Daenerys' core traits and convictions behind the ol' "GRRM has not finished his series".

We know that there are only 2 books left of this series and Dany is still very NOT like her show counterpart's more...demanding isn't the right word but for now, we'll go with it. Based on this fact alone, people are so much more willing to believe that Dany will turn a 180 somewhere in these last 2 bks and destroy KL or do something akin to Mad!Aerys "bc Targs are crazy and she seeks to be a white savior while profiting from slaves". That this extreme turn for her will not happen for someone like Jon Snow who literally came back from the dead after nearly all under his command killed him. That they don't feel it rather be Cersei, not Dany, who'd blow up KL despite all the comparisons and actions she has similar to Aerys in the text, word for word verbatim. No it has to be Dany, bec she is a "foreign invader" come to ruin the good town of Westeros with her slave-owning ways.

Ryan Condal recently said as much about the D&D defense on BigThink:

Besides, there were a lot other instances where it's clear the real reason why they demolished her was to move on from the project and they just didn't like Dany. Go on over to ozymalek/PhoenixAshes' Youtube and search through to see how they broke it all down.

And yes, Dany actually showed/has very good reason to believe her singularity and even this pseudo-religious quality from her revitalizing dragons, effectively patching up a lot of the magical balance of the world by doing so.

What's also pretty cool is that bk!her still doesn't think of herself as a "god" the way Euron Greyjoy is kinda heading towards/is already at.

So it's so fucking weird how they are trying to re-capitalize on Dany's effect and show!character (and before that, her nonviolenet ADwD arc about the pits) for their false version of Rhaenyra bc apparently we can tolerate and even like ambitious, vengeful, cruel, or just selfish men like Euron, Robert B, Robb (not evil, but went to war for his own ends and his armies also raped indiscriminately), TYWIN [Rains of Castamere, everything else], etc. BUT a woman who has even just the mere self-concern to want to claim back a throne that was DEFINITIVELY usurped?! Nah, apparently, that's too much. She's unsympatheziable.

For a woman, she HAS to be "unselfish", trying to prove a point to men--dead or alive--of her strength 24/7, but unable to settle with an idea of her own "strength" or worthiness, and thus eventually be lead into semi-unintentionally building some strange "cult" around dragons from Westerosi religiosity to feel in control & for people to sympathize with her. She HAS to--as one Twitter user said--have a problem with her gender identity so as to attribute "womanly" stuff as "weak" to want the same things as what a man are granted.

If the audience is stupid, does that mean you should be as well and perpetuate MORE sexist stereotypes/frameworks? No; HotD is for the money and comes form a place of ignorant "women guide violent men" narrative, no matter much it claims it is "feminist" or how lore-knowledgeable Condal says he is.

We all know this is a media company and Condal is more businessman than creator and that you need sorta both a business/production sense as well as a creative spirit for TV/film. Problem is that Condal is inevitably and attempting to build an ethos and ethical narrative while also treating the org stories and GoT as material to re-market through his own "vision" of what he'd personally like to see as a ASoIaF story.

Just bc this is a huge media company doesn't mean whatever they say is "God" for the actual story they were tasked to adapt! You can enjoy that and still recognize nothing about it or most of it informs the orig story or "proves" anything of it WITHOUT bringing up good reasoning and comparisons as to how-why!

Much of the characterization/writing/plot decisions he makes are not about feminism or making the characters palatable for others but to--like with a lot of censorship--just make it so that as many people as possible are watching and are comfortable with the most popular but incorrect ideas of what ASoIaF & feminism or sexism is about, etc.. those of which have already been in fandom and larger life/online circulation for YEARS.

Therefore, there is much superficiality as well as what could have been fleshed out and nuanced ideas or directions the current writing HotD has AS WELL AS Condal's/Hess' own biases written into the very fabric of this show that mark it as just ASoIaF "fanfiction" instead of a strict "adaptation". I know people get annoyed with the fanfic allegations, but if you have an "adaptation" that no longer has most-to-any of the core ideas, themes, characterizations, EVENTS, etc. as its original, you call that a fanfic, not an adaptation. Just bc it came from a prestige major studio/company and had a lot of money thrown at it, doesn't make it actually an adaptation.

If the author themselves--even though they should know better bc look what happened with Dany, Euron, Cersei-Jaime, etc.--say something is egregiously wrong with how they written a certain thing in the show, it is not actually using the orig lore and therefore it is more fanfic than adaptation:

Dany--unlike any other Targ, which includes Rhaenyra--has a relationship with 3 separate dragons even though she will only ride one. Vermithor should NOT have been as "docile" with Rhaenyra as they were in the show (saw another clip online, still haven't watched the episode). There is still a reason why Jace tried to get her out TWICE, why Viserys was upset at Aemond for going down to the Dragonpit alone, why Rhaena nearly died trying to bond with some, , why Nettles approach and SUCCESS with Sheepstealer is so amazing, why Baelon bumping a dragon on the nose gave him the moniker "Baelon the Brave", etc. Dragons are damned dangerous to anyone who aren't their rider! And Rhaenyra's "specialness" was evident in the plethora and rise of dragon eggs....you want to show her as such? Have dialogue about the trajectory of dragon eggs laid compared to now vs 40/30/20/10 yrs ago!

Yes, most of the Targ women are connected and esp through magic and fertility & expressed "Targaryen woman's strength" and agency in unique but still related ways. But as rhaenin-time once said:

HotD thinks it's somehow an improvement to insist that actually, no, they're all just (by circumstance) variations of a "generic targ girl" template.

You could have even have Rhaenyra stumble on something a GoT character later finds but not have her go into that deep about it bc she's focused on the war/usurpation if you really want to stick with the whole oversimplified "distracted by selfish stuff" going on. Point is, Rhaenyra's significance was meager compared to Dany's SPECIFICALLY when we talk about active and participatory spiritutality/magic. Passively and more subtly, Rhaenyra dying spelled the end of dragons...so be subtle about it and stop with the whole "religious cult" nonsense that really is just a continuation of the whole Dany-is-a-facist nonsense we got in the final season of GoT. "Targ madness" and all that.

Of course they won't bc this is Condal's "vision", but hey, got things off my chest.

[alicentalicent]

Watching episode 1x01 of House of the Dragon is a delight because you can find a lot of foreshadowing and nods to what will happen later. This part stood out for me because while Corlys is swearing fealty to Rhaenyra as Viserys' heir, the shot cuts to Alicent in a very pointed way.

We can see her with an expression that could be read as jealousy, perhaps, or being worried about what this means to Rhaenyra (Alicent is very smart, and the precedent in this respect does NOT bode well for Rhaenyra. Though maybe she's just being anxious (as per usual) about losing her friend to duty and responsibility soon idk Emily's acting is superb and this expression can be interpreted in many ways.)

That's the surface layer of the scene, but I find it interesting that Corlys, the one swearing fealty to Rhaenyra, betrays her at the end. Whereas Alicent, the one being shown at this moment, ends up walking a very complicated path where fealty and good faith are questioned, but we know now she chooses Rhaenyra at the end. Beautiful.

Followed by a quick interlude of Rhaenyra enveloped in flames, because of course she is.

And now we have the next Lord swearing fealty, Hobert Hightower, which we know will stop supporting Rhaenyra's claim from the very moment Aegon II draws his first breath.

The scene cuts to Daemon, who is at his lowest point because Viserys chose Rhaenyra as his heir in part to spite him and as a punishment for being an absolute prick about Baelon dying.

But we know that he ends up marrying Rhaenyra and supporting her claim. However, I would argue that his arc also questions "good faith and without deceit."

And finally, the scene cuts to none other than Mysaria, who we know will play an important part in Rhaenyra's cause.

It's fun that the focus is on her while Lord Hobert is swearing by the old gods and the new, especially if we think of the role she will play in advising Rhaenyra about the dragonseeds and thus leaning into the divine aspect of being a Targaryen, closer to the gods thanks to the dragons etc etc.

Heh, that's Mysaria on the stairs. (Young Rhaenyra would be like: "may the gods bless you wtf???")

Anyways I like finding scenes that on first watch are saying something and on rewatch you can notice maybe there's some more stuff hidden there.

Also I looooove noticing parallels between Alicent/Daemon on one side and Alicent/Mysaria on the other. Delicious food.

[horizon-verizon]

Well, Criston wanted her to give up everything so he can maintain a belief in his own honor. 

Daemon wants her as she was is and even stronger and more powerful after becoming queen. 

Also, Criston was Kingsguard, not high enough of birth/“blood” to be married to a princess even without, and thus unmarriable. To marry him was to elope and lose everything (again, he expects her to do this?! that’s not love).

Daemon is marriable because Targs/Valyrian dragonlords married sibs and uncle/nieces or nieces/nephews, is a prince, was definitely going to support her and her kids’ claims on the basis of their existing and long emotional connection and the feudal value placed of blood relations that marriage is supposed to be used for, and was single [by episode 5].

BTW, Westerosi lords can marry their first cousins.The Faith allows it and doesn’t rule it incest (Sources: 1 & 2) : 

However in Westeros incest is only applied if father lays with daughter, mother lays with son, or brother to sister, and the children of such unions are considered abominations.

Joanna and Tywin Lannister are an example of first cousins marrying.

Other first cousin marriages:

Viserys I and Aemma Arryn

Rickard and Lyanna Stark

[proposed] Robert Arryn and Sansa Stark

There are even two avunvulate marriages within the Stark house: Jonnel and Sansa Stark [uncle and niece], Serena and Edric Stark [uncle and niece].

But I also don’t like overall how HotD’s Daemon & Rhaenyra’s characterizations are written. They are too obsessed or fixated on Viserys and rhaenyra doesn’t express and act as if she has agency. The Daemyra content was good enough to merit content, but it could have been much better if the characters were written better and with less prejudice.

Rhaenyra denied Ser Crispin when he asked her to run away with him. But when Daemon showed up to the rehearsal dinner she was ready to drop everything and go to Dragonstone and marry him

what am i supposed to do with this information

[iheartbookbran]

The most egregious thing about Alicent’s hypocrisy isn’t really her fucking Criston. Honestly good for her and I hope they did it at least once in front of Viserys’ rotting corpse. Rather it’s her complaining about being undermined by her male relatives after spending a decade trying to undermine Rhaenyra in front of a bunch of men and actively participating in a usurpation plot against her. Or wondering if her letters to Rhaenyra have been answered after the usurpation plot she was part of lead to Rhaenyra’s son being killed. And then having the gal to include Luke in her prayers when since the moment that boy was born she’s been targeting him and his brothers for the sole purpose of having them exiled and disinherited, or worse…

[elegantwoes]

I love how Alicent and Criston fucking is considered OOC and shit writing, but somehow Alicent choosing Rhaenyra over her own children (even though motherhood is big part of her characterization and a driving force to the choices she makes) is completely fine and considered peak writing because it’s ‘tRaGiC yUrI’.

[wellijustfinnihedoneofthebooks]

Its honestly so funny to me when people talk about ryan condal's "team black bias" and its like yall... i dont think condal cares about the fictional waring factions of incest kingdom... i think he just thinks rhaenyra is his main character and thus warps the world to suit rhaenyra

[horizon-verizon]

With Rhaenyra becoming this "peace-loving" person PLUS how we know Rhaenyra's fate, it's also them perpetuating the ideas that:

after too much loss & grief, a woman defaults to "cultish" leadership to "trick" others into following her through a a "savior" complex when she "falsely" believes she's fulfilling a "false" prophecy by her father's word---thus she must need another male--better yet, a male relative--to put her down and save the world

GoT Tyrion, S8, regarding Dany: "she killed people and we cheered her for it" -- Rhaenyra becomes a lesson in fanaticism as if just wanting & acting to have what men are socially graced AND WAS ALREADY BESTOWED LEGALLY BY THE LAST RULER is "fanatical" OR that women are so uniquely predisposed to "madness" and irrationality when men enact violence or unjust action against them

women MUST have complexes about their gender OR just be NLOGs like Cersei order to be JUSTIFIED or be ABLE to want power or positions of such (Rhaenyra was no such thing)

"wronged women are...monstrous" [pic below & LINK]

LINK to article

In fact, the show is not actually doing any favors for Dany by confirming what was already obvious since the very first book. Whom they ruined and vilified in S8.

They are taking this approach of Daemon seeing Dany in visons and confirming she is Azor Ahai bc she is their most popular character of all time and they want to retain the fanbase for more ASoIaF projects. And to reaffirm their decision to make her this fanatical, power hungry, megalomaniac who Euron Greyjoy is actually like in this bloodstone Emperor vs Amethyst Empress/Azor Ahai Dany truly is parallel to.

They will either/both make it as if Dany was always meant to be Azor Ahai AND Nissa Nissa (the "sacrifice") and dies to "save" the world. not be the savior who lives and actively saves the world by her own merits/actions even if not totally by herself. that Dany will be the material, not the actor.

Two of the many reasons I hate House of the Dragon:

-- They're doubling down on GOT's vitriol that "the best ruler is the one that doesn't want to rule" that they used to vilify Dany in the end.

-- They made Alicent and Rhaenyra into these peace-loving characters, and gave many of Dany's peace-loving qualities to them. Which led to a bunch of show-watchers (and plenty of book readers that don't know the books well) to believe that Rhaenyra and Alicent are better queens/more peaceful/more reasonable than Dany. These fans end up loving Rhaenyra and Alicent while hating Dany, even though the reasons they love show!Rhaenyra and show!Alicent are precisely the qualities that the showrunners stole from book!Dany and gave to them.

[idkjustletmescroll]

It's really weird how a lot of people in the got/hotd fandom don't seem to accept how grey grrm's characters are? Idk maybe I'm just on the wrong side of tumblr/tiktok, but...several things can be true at once.

Cersei Lannister can be an abuser, a killer, AND A VICTIM. She can love her children AND have deeply unhealthy relationships with them. Alicent Hightower can resent her children, have unhealthy relationships with them, have no idea how to parent them, and still love them. Rhaenyra can be the rightful heir to the iron throne with good intentions, and still seemingly have no idea how to rule. Viserys can make Rhaenyra his heir and talk about how much he loves Aemma and be a sh*t dad and partner. Sansa Stark can be mean to Arya and also a child whose behavior is reinforced by a guardian (the septa, who she is told to obey and learn from). Joffrey Baratheon can be a sadist who had to die for the good of the realm, and still a child. Robert can be funny and Ned's friend, and a terrible father and husband. Ned and Catelyn can be some of the best parents on either show, love each other and their kids, do everything for each other and their kids, and still have failed to prepare their children for the world they live in. The whole POINT of grrm's characters is that they're not good or evil, they're not black or white, their cruelty has a reason and they are all functioning within an inherently unjust society, and doing the best they can.

[lady-corrine]

I am definetly of the opinion that bookwise Syrax commited suicide after she killed Joffrey because she felt Rhaenyra's pain.

Nor would she loose her hold upon him… until that dread moment when Syrax fell. Unchained and riderless, Syrax might have easily flown away from the madness. The sky was hers. She could have returned to the Red Keep, left the city entirely, taken wing for Dragonstone. Was it the noise and fire that drew her to the Hill of Rhaenys, the roars and screams of the dying dragons, the smell of burning flesh? We cannot know, no more than we can know why Syrax chose to descend upon the Shepherd’s mobs, rending them with tooth and claw and devouring dozens, when she might as easily have rained fire on them from above, for in the sky no man could have harmed her.

[lemonhemlock]

The truth about Alicent Hightower: why is she so disliked?

https://youtu.be/t9HjamrAMfU?si=QpoUMPQQSuTWmovz

I found this video on YouTube. I didn't watch the video, but I did read the comments, and many of them were negative toward Alicent. I want to know your thoughts on this video.

The comments are negative towards Alicent because the creator's request for engagement consisted of asking her audience to share why they disliked Alicent. Though I do feel inclined to enquire myself: why are you asking me to react to this video if you haven't even watched it?

Many of these talking points I have already addressed in my lengthy meta posts over time:

There is a conflation of Alicent from the books and Alicent from the show. Show!Alicent was not sent to comfort Jaehaerys and is more innocent and trusting that book!Alicent because she is younger.

Alicent is hated by many viewers for "seducing" Viserys. The creator says she doesn't and denies that people blame her for that, but they do. It's an easily-verified, observable reality and, thus, a strange thing to even say.

Jace/Helaena is not an advantageous marriage for the greens.

"Why was Otto spying on Rhaenyra?" It's literally his job. "He deserved to be fired". It's literally his job to be spying on everyone and report the information back to the King.

The Hightowers are faced with the fait accompli that Aegon will not be named heir. They went into the marriage fully believing that Alicent's sons would overtake Rhaenyra in the line of succession, as was the social norm.

It ultimately comes back to what I was talking about these last few days. This is the result of a conflation of several factors:

ignorance about what medieval social and economic arrangements actually were (what is feudalism? what is manorialism?);

stubbornly clinging to the notion that Westeros is an absolutist monarchy and that "the King's word is law";

downplaying the bastard issue, i.e. refusing to acknowledge how concerning the division of the marital estate was to inheritors and blaming it entirely on misogyny-fueled sex-negativism;

having no concept of what common law is or how it functions.

People can't let go of this image that Westeros is a capitalist modern state with an authoritarian leader (the King). And dragons. (It's Russia, basically. The dragons are bears).

Most of TB's discourse contains some combination of the above, which is why, honestly, at this point, if people are so invested in still talking about this, I would truly suggest a primer in medieval history, because this is getting ridiculous. These reasonings are just not rooted in a tangible basis of reality and trying to engage with them is like fighting windmills.

In the same vein, I wish people would stop bringing up the point of Alicent misunderstanding that Viserys changed his mind on his death bed. I get it, you think it's a dumb argument, but, lo' and behold, it's actually lifted straight from real history and, to the shock of thousands of Twitter users, it worked. What now? Stephen of Blois truly is crying in the afterlife because you think this little trick of his lacks realism. 🤦‍♀️