#Rhaenyra's characterization

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I find it funny that TG is bugging out about Rhaenyra saying “a son for a son” because Jaehaerys ended up being murdered but if you wanna get technical, Rhaenyra lost two children, Lucerys AND Visenya. Technically, she’s owed another sooooo. Jaehaery’s death didn’t phase Aemond at all, she wants her son’s killer punished rightfully.

I personally was confused by the son-for-a-son…bc it was basically a repetition of her in epi 1 when she was like "I want Aemond", and I thought that she'd get over all that as the show has thus far made it seem with her choosing of her own free will to meet up with the woman who is protecting the person who killed her son and committed kinslaying....but then I remembered this was HotD and it all made nonsense.

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Well, Criston wanted her to give up everything so he can maintain a belief in his own honor. 

Daemon wants her as she was is and even stronger and more powerful after becoming queen. 

Also, Criston was Kingsguard, not high enough of birth/“blood” to be married to a princess even without, and thus unmarriable. To marry him was to elope and lose everything (again, he expects her to do this?! that’s not love).

Daemon is marriable because Targs/Valyrian dragonlords married sibs and uncle/nieces or nieces/nephews, is a prince, was definitely going to support her and her kids’ claims on the basis of their existing and long emotional connection and the feudal value placed of blood relations that marriage is supposed to be used for, and was single [by episode 5].

BTW, Westerosi lords can marry their first cousins.The Faith allows it and doesn’t rule it incest (Sources: 1 & 2) : 

However in Westeros incest is only applied if father lays with daughter, mother lays with son, or brother to sister, and the children of such unions are considered abominations.

Joanna and Tywin Lannister are an example of first cousins marrying.

Other first cousin marriages:

Viserys I and Aemma Arryn

Rickard and Lyanna Stark

[proposed] Robert Arryn and Sansa Stark

There are even two avunvulate marriages within the Stark house: Jonnel and Sansa Stark [uncle and niece], Serena and Edric Stark [uncle and niece].

But I also don’t like overall how HotD’s Daemon & Rhaenyra’s characterizations are written. They are too obsessed or fixated on Viserys and rhaenyra doesn’t express and act as if she has agency. The Daemyra content was good enough to merit content, but it could have been much better if the characters were written better and with less prejudice.

Rhaenyra denied Ser Crispin when he asked her to run away with him. But when Daemon showed up to the rehearsal dinner she was ready to drop everything and go to Dragonstone and marry him

what am i supposed to do with this information

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Master Post of Anti-Criston Cole-ism

He was Never Raped or SA-ed

A) [HotD] HotD's Episode 4, from the Actor and Writers

i)

🔗LINK to Entertainment Weekly Article that Describes Frankel & Writers Making this Scene Consensual Sex Scenes where Criston "Chooses" to Forget his Vows

Neither of these reveal that either the actor nor the writers or directors wrote the sex scene to be something Criston was afraid of or didn't want. The way it's talked about, with people "discovering" each other and themselves shows consent and enjoyment. Frankel wanted to play out his fear of Criston's own desire to break his own vows and facing the guilt of that; Rhaenyra never pressured him into anything.

REMINDER: He's still not "commonborn" nor Dornish, since:

he has a last name, which peasants don't have AND his father/house is House Cole, stewards of the Dondarrions...the Tyrells at one point were stewards to House Gardner in the Reach & they were still nobles of that time, stewards don't mean full fledged "servants"

Blackhaven is in the Stormland part of the Dornish Marches, not the Dornish part of the Dornish Marches...Samwell Tarly's family's castle is in the foothill of a part of the Dornish Marches, ....Barristan Selmy's family's castle, Harvest Hill, is based in the Dornish Marches in Stormlander territory, so is Barristan Selmy Dornish? Cole is a Stormlander!

Marchers hate Dornish people more than other nonDornish Westerosi do...Criston said his dad was a steward of the nonDornish Dondarrions...HotD has never shown us whether either of his parents are Dornish by origin so what proof do we have he is Dornish even in the show?!!! And we see no discrimination (hint or overt) the court has against Cole...

lets' say that Cole was Dornish...the Velaryons are black and realisitically, even rich Black people do not manage to avoid subtle racial discrimination (there's a black woman on TikTok from a wealthy family that talks about it, idk her name)...so if Criston faces racism and the Velaryons don't either the writers are incompetent or don't know racism

Not only is this a misreading of what the Dornish Marches are on the HotD writers'/producers' part, it's a misreading or understanding of race either in medieval times or the modern day, AND people have tried to use a supposed racial disparity b/t Rhaenyra (Valyrian-Targ princess) to argue that Cole (the racially-inferior) felt racial pressure as well to comply to sleep with her and avoid censure or punishment if she blabs...as if his race would give him the right to sleep with a teen girl who some have argued was also very drunk here-- even if Criston was Dornish!

ii) [HotD] HotD's Episode 4, from the actual Episode

People don't know what SA or rape actually looks like...can we just, please?...

B) "If the Roles were Reversed" [HotD AND the Original Story]

i)

Rhaenyra didn't "make" him do anything b/c she doesn't have the ability to take on that new level of risk. So much protest using the "if the genders were reversed", and yet no acknowledgment or breakdown of what their respective unique positions are.

A male heir =/= a female heir in terms of power and privilege, gender really matters even here, as every source on the matter--whether HotD or the original story--has made every single minute to point out and emphasize...the only reason we are even talking about the Dance is that it was a group of people arguing that no woman should go before a man inn any line of succession which comes from the belief that women are inherently insufficient military leaders. And female chastity is a whole concept in of itself where the woman/girl must be sexually "pure" as to ensure that a man's and his family's lineage remains "proven" to be inherited by someone blood-connected to them. To preserve that wealth and privilege. etc., within that family. Female chastity - female "obedience" or submission to male supremacy.

Women could never be knights so they can never be Kingsguard.

Brienne is not a knight...yet[?], and she exists YEARS after the Dance; even if there were female monarchs before, check out real history for how medieval people regarded female rulers if they didn't happen to be very "good" ones...I mean just check out Juana I of Castile!

We can never equalize these situations in matter of gender because this society structures on the inequality of its genders.

A World of Ice and Fire shows us glaring examples of women over men being brutally sidelined or physically attacked to make way for male leaders or candidates (Shiera Blackwood, Agnes Blackwood, that unnamed Lannister woman who had to marry a non-Lannister man so he could take her name just so he could lead the Lannister house instead of her, Argella Durrandon, Marla Sunderland); Fire and Blood has a bunch of girls raped, mutilated, SA-ed or sexually manipulated so the men can inch their way towards power or to just feel in control (Cassandra Baratheon, Lucinda Penrose, those Tumbleton 8-year-olds, the septas, etc.).

Making as if sexual violence against men or just general violence against men is treated the same, as frequent, and socially justified as violence against women and girls both in real life and in the ASoIaF/HotD/GoT universes is disingenuous. As long as we live in a society where enough people think a woman's body is never totally her own, it never will be.

ii) Let's play with this "Reversal" Anyway:

a) We already see Rhaenyra-Criston in the version of her approaching him...

In F&B, we already have one verison of what happened b/t them in Mushroom telling us of a situation of Rhaenyra approaching Criston and Criston denying her, with no material consequences for him...and he freely decides to hate and try to destroy her anyway ("A Question of Succession"):

Even IF Rhaenyra approached Criston and in this way, she does not go to Viserys to ruin Cole or do anything else to him. She sleeps with Harwin instead. And why doesn't she go to Viserys to fuck Criston's life up? Bc he has been her trusted guard for ages, but also because of what I say below in section b) below and i) above.

Reminder, Viserys in both the show and book forces Rhaenyra to marry Laenor, and book!her explicitly is rumored to say she wanted Daemon. She faces censure or punishment, not Cole.

Show!Rhaenyra has also been "friends"/friendly with Cole for years; what reason do we have to expect or fear that she'd complain to Viserys? How much does Criston really expect Rhaenyra does, since he's the said friend in her "confidence"?

b) Occam's razor

Since women cannot be Kingsguard in Westeros, the female-Cole would either be a lower-ranked noble woman or she would be like Jonquil Darke, the female sworn-shield of Alysanne Targaryen (who still wasn't part of the Kingsguard). JD was also a Darkling bastard.

It's so very unlikely that even if female-Cole become the guard to young/older male-Rhaenyra.

That's inconceivable to these people. Why would the probably already-sword trained male-Rhaenyra need a personal female-guardsman when they'd have an actual Kingsguard knight (still all male) as the male-Rhaenyra's guard before a female warrior is ever considered? This is the mindest of these royals and nobles, btw.

And again, Jonquil was the protector of Alysanne, not Jaehaerys. But Jaehaerys did use Jonquil to stop Saera from running away, and this proves that Jonquil's "final boss" is and always has been Jaehaerys, aka, the Monarch, not the person she was protecting. If a male-Rhaenyra approached a female-Cole (but not a bastard) who was a sort of Jonquil Darke person, even with that female-Cole being well-versed in swordsmanship or anything physical to defend herself, the social consequences of that woman sleeping with a royal man while not being married to him is still as real and worse for her than for him. She'd be less willing to fully engage with him and dread the consequences of his growing angry with her.

What if female-Cole was just a regular noblewoman, either ranked high from a prestigious family/Great House (Starks, Martell, Hightowers, Lannisters, Manderlys] or from a lower ranked or not-as-prestigious and influential family (Tarlys, Selmys, Boltons, Wyls)? And male-Rhaenyra took a liking to female-Cole but didn't want to or expect to marry them?

Because female-Cole is a female noble and had grown up knowing that women & girls are socially condemned for actually practicing sexual autonomy, they'd be much more cautious and vulnerable to censure in either scenario:

If the female-Cole was from a more prestigious or "Great" House, male-Rhaenyra wouldn't as likely approach them unless they thought they'd be good for marriage because that house is powerful and important enough to put some pressure on them IF they ever found out. An affair is very possible, and depending on female-Cole's age and assessment of her own abilities and worth growing up female, we don't know whether they'd be willing to pursue a true consensual affair with male-Rhaenyra without there being a hope or guarantee for marriage. Because, like Lysa Tully, they still run the risk of tainting their family/house' image and face punishment or abuse from their own family if such affairs were made public. (If I have to explain Lysa Tully to people, they either forgot what happens b/t her & Petar Baelish or never read the bks, and if the latter they should not speak on anything to do with any character in things like this that requires lore knowledge AND some objectivity. Or they don't see what happened to her as "a big deal"...) Still, there is room for her to not want the attention because women are not a monolith of the exact same personalities or circumstances for us to believe every single woman would go for a real affair regardless of there being a desire or expectation of marriage. Thus what I describe below for lower ranked women/girls still counts. If anything, the stakes can be said to be higher because her family's prestige or power is so high that they could also take the path of blaming her. Therefore, a woman/girl of this group could still feel cornered.

If female-Cole came from a lower/less prestigious house, male-Rhaenyra is more interested & likelier of pursuing an affair or making female-Cole their paramour/mistress. Same situation, but the girl has even less reason to believe that there would be a marriage bc her house' rank/prestige/powers are so low for a possible marriage to the future King. She'd have to be either be mentally incapacitated (Priscella Hogg), under another immense pressure, or very young to believe that. So in this case, there is a stronger likelihood that if she sleeps with male-Rhaenyra, it's because she was cornered or felt she couldn't avoid him and had no assurances to avoid him later on. Or that he'd later feel slighted and begin rumors of her in court and her reputation gets ruined either way.

in either case, because male-Rhaenyra is a man while female-Cole isn't and men are far more likely to use physical force to intimidate or push a woman down then the reverse; men on average feel entitled to women's bodies' and attention, what more a royal prince like Aegon & Aemond? (I didn't use these examples by accident: that 12 yr old "paramour" Septon Eustace informs us and Alys Rivers)

And male-Rhaenyra would be the heir, still. There would be no doubt against male-Rhaenyra because she'd be male, male leaders are credited their deserving to rule armies by being male. His path to ascension is clearer than what real-Rhaenyra currently and will have to face. Male-Rhaenyra has no reason to even be all that secretive with female-Cole if he did intend on making her his paramour & he thought he'd get away with just making her his paramour...which is most likely a woman in a much lower "rank" or of a family with much lower powers than some others. Yes, Viserys would say that he is acting "unseemly", he could be called stupid or reckless, and some lords and ladies would think he's acting too licentuously...but no one would begrudge or hate male-Rhaenyra long for extramaritally/premaritally sleeping with a woman of any origin as to say they were a "whore" or try to use this as their primary reason be shouldn't be the next King. The "new" greens don't as much shit to stand on. They'd look silly(ier) for actually using this as a reason to say he shouldn't be King.

Female-Cole has little to no leverage against a male-Rhaenyra in the specific moment of a sexual cornering bc there is simply more risk for her than for him based on their respective genders AND ranking. We can't separate the two, they will inform the other.

Cole-Cole has more social leverage than a woman actually corned by a male higher-ranking noble/royal bc Rhaenyra-Rhaenyra's reputation can be ruined a lot easier than a male heir's. In any iteration, female-Cole rather than Cole-Cole has more risk & pressures in because women are given less grace in events where it's known they extramaritally/premaritally sleep with a man. Because she's already side-eyed or doubted to be a capable leader or worthy, censures against her lack of practicing female obedience and chastity would make her seem less deserving of the throne and give her enemies more fuel to fire their own agenda.

Again, this hierarchical feudal society is built on making gender, class, etc. essential differences that grant individuals privileges over others.

Finally, Criston Cole, his relationship with Rhaenyra, AND their sex /how it happened cannot be compared to a modern-day boss-employee-relationship/sexual harassment sort of sex-reversed MeToo! situation. Viserys is, as many have said on both camps, Criston's real and unequivocal "boss". Really, this whole argument then diminishes what actual SA is and the MeToo! movement's focus on holding mainly male professional superiors accountable for willfully using their positions to assault those under them.

The writers trying to make Rhaenyra the one in with more psychological control over Criston when canonically there' isn't much evidence to support that is very suspicious.

Reasons to Hate Cole

A) Show/House of the Dragon

i)

Let's really think about Criston's suggestion to run away and marry.

The guy said this in episode 5 of season 1:

I've soiled my white cloak. And it's the only thing I have to my fսck¡ng name! I thought if we were married, I might be able to restore it.

Criston's logic reveals he's more concerned about retaining his own sense and perception of his honor and not "honor" in general bc running away to elope would bring great disgrace to both his and Rhaenyra’s families & houses. Not just Rhaenyra herself. If it is Rhaenyra's "duty" to marry Laenor, she would be breaking her vows to become Queen. If she runs away, she arguably broke her vows to "protect" the realm from the Others as by her and Viserys' conversation about Aegon's prophecy. Cole may not have heard this from Rhaenyra, but he didn't want to hear anything from her because all he wanted was for her to go along with what he wanted, not to actually listen to her any misgivings she may have had.

He looked at marriage as a way to "bring back" a sense of honor for himself. Vows hold "sacred" honor. Criston is trying to distance himself from the very idea of freely and willfully “soiling” his cloak by trying to "replace" his brken vows with new marriage vows.

Remeber, he consented to sex with Rhaenyra, so it was his willful decision to sleep with her and "soil" his own "cloak". The writers and the actor, again, both work in the understanding that Cole "chooses to lie with Rhaenyra" [top of this post].

Criston absolutely knows that she can't marry him in the usual, open way and still retain her position as heir or even as part of the royal family. He's asking her to abandon her entire family...let that sink in. It shows a gender disparity that does not justify "if the roles were reversed". Lower-ranked-Female-Cole would never and could never hope to convince the male-Rhaenyra to run away with her and start an entirely new life, abandon both of their families (for marriage specifically) bc he doesn't have to in order to marry her. He may lose some people's respect if he marries her, but the consequences for him versus a female heir are not the same. A female heir would have to run away & not be among other Westerosi nobles, become a peasant, etc. to marry someone like Cole. *EDIT (3/17/24)* Example: Prince Duncan and Jenny of Oldstones. *END OF EDIT*

He was attracted to her, but his main motivation was to escape the shame of his soiled cloak and soiled honor. That his honor is actually a lie, a made-up thing in itself. That he, himself, soiled it and thus he, himself, has made himself a liar.

ii)

He has been living in court being Rhaenyra’s personal guard for years. Some of us thought that he should have known that nobles largely do not follow the same rules that excuse their positions through rumors. That they withhold and lie to protect themselves. (And generally, humans are wont to try to bend their own rules to satisfy their own desires.) 

And so we think that he should have done the same--patiently withhold information and observe what happens so he could adapt to it--while Alicent was getting to ask if Rhaenyra had slept with Daemon, and not if he slept with her.

It may not be faithful to one's vows, but if he actually knew what kind of person Rhaenyra was--that she would never run away with him (as he should after so many years of being with her and thus I think he did know but asked anyway, this he never really cared about her but himself)--then he should have never brought up the suggestion of running away or thought she'd ever marry him. What exactly did he think would happen for him after sleeping w/her? And as I argued, he had much more choice than some may think and took advantage of it. As nobles often do.

And yet, he decides that Rhaenyra is responsible for what he freely chose for himself AND what he could have easily avoided as a man/Kingsguard and her being female. And he does so so he can avoid accountability. Rhaenyra is much less likely to be able to & doesn't want to, once again, "make" him do anything with her. And Rhaenyra does not control Criston Cole's conscience nor his penis nor his reasoning.

Occam's razor again.

iii)

He decides to take it out on the Velaryon boys, as clued by what happens in the training yard of episode 6. It's obvious he refuses to treat them similarly to the green princes and train them at the same level. He's also much more physically rough with Jace than with either green boy. Finally he presses for Aegon to get more violent than necessary against Jace, clearly taking pleasure in vicarious revenge against Rhaenyra.

He's a loser who uses children's pain to inflict his own frustrations. And no, "illegitimate" children are not less human than "trueborn" ones.

B) Fire and Blood (The Original Story)

These are the versions of what happens b/t them, Septon Eustace's vs Mushroom's ("A Question of Succession"):

Really, alinahams already tackled this HERE, so check them out.

Excerpt:

In both versions, Criston is never involved with Rhaenyra in any way. Both versions take care to mention how it was all about Rhaenyra's choices about her life and body that bothered Criston and made him hate her. It's never about Criston being used and discarded. That is what makes Criston an Incel and a villain. Rhaenyra never did anything wrong to him. She didn't do anything to deserve his life long hatred and betrayal. It was his own twisted madonna/whore complex that ruined his friendship with Rhaenyra.

Criston decides to make it his life mission to destroy Rhaenyra because he couldn't handle her making her own decisions, bc honestly even if she (a 16-17 yr old) had decided to try to seduce him as Viserra did with Baelon...did Baelon hold it against Viserra or say that she was a whore or try to condemn her or get back at her for daring to "disturb" him in his grief over his dead wife, their sister, Alyssa?

Even with Baelon being a prince to Criston's Kingsguard, we see that both Viserra & Rhaenyra were desperate to have some sense of control over their own bodies through sex--and for Viserra through a marriage to a more powerful man--because it is through sex and marriage that their entire autonomy is being taken away or suppressed. And some in this fandom have argued that Viserra was bad or amoral for trying to seduce Baelon in his grief, and some have even said she was trying to take advantage of him! But does Baelon think this way or try to "avenge" himself on her? No.

Why try to ruin her and her kids' entire lives? Once more, Rhaenyra, even in Mushroom's version, does not ever complain to Viserys or try to ruin Criston. So....

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The showrunners just continue to steal from TV Daenerys’s characterization and final storyline to improve their Rhaenyra (a self righteous Targaryen woman with delusions of grandeur ? Groundbreaking), but she remains completely boring and forgettable. Dust in the wind.

And even though TV Daenerys is radically and entirely different from her book counterpart (as much as I love Emilia Clarke), TV Daenerys’ daddy didn’t tell her she’s special, unlike Rhaenyra, Daenerys realized she’s special when she brought back dragons from extinction and walked out of fire utterly unharmed, please can people stop compare her to any of the mid characters from HOTD ??

Speak it again, anon, bc what?! It's quite obvious that they are trying to inject as much a literal magic layer of significance in Rhaenyra's story as magic was in Dany's Or they are trying to make Rhaenyra more "important" in the Targ lineage & "interesting" to those who loved Dany (which is most of the fandom, lets' bfr) to promote the show. And yet at every turn they have also excused D&D's atrocious illogical writing of Daenerys' core traits and convictions behind the ol' "GRRM has not finished his series".

We know that there are only 2 books left of this series and Dany is still very NOT like her show counterpart's more...demanding isn't the right word but for now, we'll go with it. Based on this fact alone, people are so much more willing to believe that Dany will turn a 180 somewhere in these last 2 bks and destroy KL or do something akin to Mad!Aerys "bc Targs are crazy and she seeks to be a white savior while profiting from slaves". That this extreme turn for her will not happen for someone like Jon Snow who literally came back from the dead after nearly all under his command killed him. That they don't feel it rather be Cersei, not Dany, who'd blow up KL despite all the comparisons and actions she has similar to Aerys in the text, word for word verbatim. No it has to be Dany, bec she is a "foreign invader" come to ruin the good town of Westeros with her slave-owning ways.

Ryan Condal recently said as much about the D&D defense on BigThink:

Besides, there were a lot other instances where it's clear the real reason why they demolished her was to move on from the project and they just didn't like Dany. Go on over to ozymalek/PhoenixAshes' Youtube and search through to see how they broke it all down.

And yes, Dany actually showed/has very good reason to believe her singularity and even this pseudo-religious quality from her revitalizing dragons, effectively patching up a lot of the magical balance of the world by doing so.

What's also pretty cool is that bk!her still doesn't think of herself as a "god" the way Euron Greyjoy is kinda heading towards/is already at.

So it's so fucking weird how they are trying to re-capitalize on Dany's effect and show!character (and before that, her nonviolenet ADwD arc about the pits) for their false version of Rhaenyra bc apparently we can tolerate and even like ambitious, vengeful, cruel, or just selfish men like Euron, Robert B, Robb (not evil, but went to war for his own ends and his armies also raped indiscriminately), TYWIN [Rains of Castamere, everything else], etc. BUT a woman who has even just the mere self-concern to want to claim back a throne that was DEFINITIVELY usurped?! Nah, apparently, that's too much. She's unsympatheziable.

For a woman, she HAS to be "unselfish", trying to prove a point to men--dead or alive--of her strength 24/7, but unable to settle with an idea of her own "strength" or worthiness, and thus eventually be lead into semi-unintentionally building some strange "cult" around dragons from Westerosi religiosity to feel in control & for people to sympathize with her. She HAS to--as one Twitter user said--have a problem with her gender identity so as to attribute "womanly" stuff as "weak" to want the same things as what a man are granted.

If the audience is stupid, does that mean you should be as well and perpetuate MORE sexist stereotypes/frameworks? No; HotD is for the money and comes form a place of ignorant "women guide violent men" narrative, no matter much it claims it is "feminist" or how lore-knowledgeable Condal says he is.

We all know this is a media company and Condal is more businessman than creator and that you need sorta both a business/production sense as well as a creative spirit for TV/film. Problem is that Condal is inevitably and attempting to build an ethos and ethical narrative while also treating the org stories and GoT as material to re-market through his own "vision" of what he'd personally like to see as a ASoIaF story.

Just bc this is a huge media company doesn't mean whatever they say is "God" for the actual story they were tasked to adapt! You can enjoy that and still recognize nothing about it or most of it informs the orig story or "proves" anything of it WITHOUT bringing up good reasoning and comparisons as to how-why!

Much of the characterization/writing/plot decisions he makes are not about feminism or making the characters palatable for others but to--like with a lot of censorship--just make it so that as many people as possible are watching and are comfortable with the most popular but incorrect ideas of what ASoIaF & feminism or sexism is about, etc.. those of which have already been in fandom and larger life/online circulation for YEARS.

Therefore, there is much superficiality as well as what could have been fleshed out and nuanced ideas or directions the current writing HotD has AS WELL AS Condal's/Hess' own biases written into the very fabric of this show that mark it as just ASoIaF "fanfiction" instead of a strict "adaptation". I know people get annoyed with the fanfic allegations, but if you have an "adaptation" that no longer has most-to-any of the core ideas, themes, characterizations, EVENTS, etc. as its original, you call that a fanfic, not an adaptation. Just bc it came from a prestige major studio/company and had a lot of money thrown at it, doesn't make it actually an adaptation.

If the author themselves--even though they should know better bc look what happened with Dany, Euron, Cersei-Jaime, etc.--say something is egregiously wrong with how they written a certain thing in the show, it is not actually using the orig lore and therefore it is more fanfic than adaptation:

Dany--unlike any other Targ, which includes Rhaenyra--has a relationship with 3 separate dragons even though she will only ride one. Vermithor should NOT have been as "docile" with Rhaenyra as they were in the show (saw another clip online, still haven't watched the episode). There is still a reason why Jace tried to get her out TWICE, why Viserys was upset at Aemond for going down to the Dragonpit alone, why Rhaena nearly died trying to bond with some, , why Nettles approach and SUCCESS with Sheepstealer is so amazing, why Baelon bumping a dragon on the nose gave him the moniker "Baelon the Brave", etc. Dragons are damned dangerous to anyone who aren't their rider! And Rhaenyra's "specialness" was evident in the plethora and rise of dragon eggs....you want to show her as such? Have dialogue about the trajectory of dragon eggs laid compared to now vs 40/30/20/10 yrs ago!

Yes, most of the Targ women are connected and esp through magic and fertility & expressed "Targaryen woman's strength" and agency in unique but still related ways. But as rhaenin-time once said:

HotD thinks it's somehow an improvement to insist that actually, no, they're all just (by circumstance) variations of a "generic targ girl" template.

You could have even have Rhaenyra stumble on something a GoT character later finds but not have her go into that deep about it bc she's focused on the war/usurpation if you really want to stick with the whole oversimplified "distracted by selfish stuff" going on. Point is, Rhaenyra's significance was meager compared to Dany's SPECIFICALLY when we talk about active and participatory spiritutality/magic. Passively and more subtly, Rhaenyra dying spelled the end of dragons...so be subtle about it and stop with the whole "religious cult" nonsense that really is just a continuation of the whole Dany-is-a-facist nonsense we got in the final season of GoT. "Targ madness" and all that.

Of course they won't bc this is Condal's "vision", but hey, got things off my chest.

[allyriadayne]

a bit puzzling to see people saying this is the first time jace has ever externalized his anger in regards to his identity issues and rhaenyra's role in them. granted, in s1 he expressed them towards other people like aemond and aegon esp when the subject was explicitly brought up like in 108, but it's very clear to me that was just another way To Not Get Mad At Mom, It's Fine Actually.

jace has been going on a realization journey since "am i a bastard?" in 106, one where he is going from thinking there's something fundamentally different in him and that it was his fault to maybe it was not his fault but then whose is it? to me it seems like jace can't bear to blame rhaenyra directly at all. she has been his champion, and jace hers in return. to blame rhaenyra is tantamount to treason. "my ruler is my mother and i do not wish it otherwise" because he /can't/ imagine otherwise either. he believes in her claim and that means she has done this for a reason.

in s2 this gives way to a more flawed rhaenyra in jace's eye. she leaves dragonstone without telling anyone twice, doesn't share her plans, doesn't act against the greens, lets daemon go, doesn't call daemon back, doesn't listen to jace, and on top of it all: lets a prophecy on targaryen supremacy lead her when her less than wholly targaryen son stands before her. it has always been rhaenyra's fault and he can't bear it and even to the last he still tries to believe her, denying she would ever do anything to undermine him.

X

[horizon-verizon]

With Rhaenyra becoming this "peace-loving" person PLUS how we know Rhaenyra's fate, it's also them perpetuating the ideas that:

after too much loss & grief, a woman defaults to "cultish" leadership to "trick" others into following her through a a "savior" complex when she "falsely" believes she's fulfilling a "false" prophecy by her father's word---thus she must need another male--better yet, a male relative--to put her down and save the world

GoT Tyrion, S8, regarding Dany: "she killed people and we cheered her for it" -- Rhaenyra becomes a lesson in fanaticism as if just wanting & acting to have what men are socially graced AND WAS ALREADY BESTOWED LEGALLY BY THE LAST RULER is "fanatical" OR that women are so uniquely predisposed to "madness" and irrationality when men enact violence or unjust action against them

women MUST have complexes about their gender OR just be NLOGs like Cersei order to be JUSTIFIED or be ABLE to want power or positions of such (Rhaenyra was no such thing)

"wronged women are...monstrous" [pic below & LINK]

LINK to article

In fact, the show is not actually doing any favors for Dany by confirming what was already obvious since the very first book. Whom they ruined and vilified in S8.

They are taking this approach of Daemon seeing Dany in visons and confirming she is Azor Ahai bc she is their most popular character of all time and they want to retain the fanbase for more ASoIaF projects. And to reaffirm their decision to make her this fanatical, power hungry, megalomaniac who Euron Greyjoy is actually like in this bloodstone Emperor vs Amethyst Empress/Azor Ahai Dany truly is parallel to.

They will either/both make it as if Dany was always meant to be Azor Ahai AND Nissa Nissa (the "sacrifice") and dies to "save" the world. not be the savior who lives and actively saves the world by her own merits/actions even if not totally by herself. that Dany will be the material, not the actor.

Two of the many reasons I hate House of the Dragon:

-- They're doubling down on GOT's vitriol that "the best ruler is the one that doesn't want to rule" that they used to vilify Dany in the end.

-- They made Alicent and Rhaenyra into these peace-loving characters, and gave many of Dany's peace-loving qualities to them. Which led to a bunch of show-watchers (and plenty of book readers that don't know the books well) to believe that Rhaenyra and Alicent are better queens/more peaceful/more reasonable than Dany. These fans end up loving Rhaenyra and Alicent while hating Dany, even though the reasons they love show!Rhaenyra and show!Alicent are precisely the qualities that the showrunners stole from book!Dany and gave to them.

[darksisterkayde]

Where do people get the idea that Luke was this little sweetheart?? That boy smirked meanly (😈 the epitome of a mini-Daemon) at his scary uncle across the dinner table and had to be held back from trying to claw his face off

[horizon-verizon]

We already knew HOTD was HELLBENT on making Daemon the toxic and abusive villain but this is a new low

https://x.com/daenerysim/status/1793840855914320068

Oh HELL NO!!! [first in a series of links and posts abt the trailers people, inclu me, went mad for]

Pack it up. The nightmare is here.

[iheartbookbran]

The most egregious thing about Alicent’s hypocrisy isn’t really her fucking Criston. Honestly good for her and I hope they did it at least once in front of Viserys’ rotting corpse. Rather it’s her complaining about being undermined by her male relatives after spending a decade trying to undermine Rhaenyra in front of a bunch of men and actively participating in a usurpation plot against her. Or wondering if her letters to Rhaenyra have been answered after the usurpation plot she was part of lead to Rhaenyra’s son being killed. And then having the gal to include Luke in her prayers when since the moment that boy was born she’s been targeting him and his brothers for the sole purpose of having them exiled and disinherited, or worse…

[horizon-verizon]

"let's say rhaenyra becomes queen, and all of the sudden other firstborn daughters start to stand up and demand to be named heirs to their houses ."let's say jace becomes the prince of dragonstone, and suddenly bastards that are older then their legitimate siblings start to demand their rights as well."

You make it sound like women and girls would, in droves and droves, do this. This is more fear-based, anti-progressive speculation at best rather than a material observation of the society & its history itself. even with the boys inheriting brown hair and brown eyes, they all bonded with dragons successfully.

Rhaenyra didn't "demand" to be Queen for Viserys to make her his heir. Viserys decided by himself that she be the next monarch. I don't understand why you believe that girls all over Westeros would or could go up to their father and "demand" to be the next lady over their younger brothers and brothers when Rhaenyra's entire justification was that her father freely and purposely chose her as his heir without her asking or "demanding" for it. If anything, after centuries of men killing, mutilating, or just dispossessing daughters or other women who /would have/have had the seats of ruling lords in Westerois history has anything to go by (Marla Sunderland, Agnes Blackwood, Shiera Blackwood, that unnamed Lannister woman who the Lannisters married to a non-Lannister man and allowed that man to take the Lannister name so he could rule instead of her, Argella Durrandon), women and girls would not do as you speculate they could do because they have lived with the knowledge of exactly what you speak of. that the men of ASoIaF are the main ones shaping and deciding the rules of their society and they could be viciously destroyed if they try to broach that.

Also, since many lords supported Rhaenyra "despite" her sons. I think we have material evidence of lords not believing that their bastards and daughters will start "demanding" that they become considered their heirs over their trueborn sons. Because Rhaenyra's entire justification was that her father chose her. AND she was a trueborn scion, not a bastard. Rhaenyra was fighting for her own claim, and her sons only had a claim over the green boys and their kids through her having a claim over those same people.

Honestly, this argument looks a lot like one argument that pro-life people have against a woman's right to abortion: "If we allow women to have free access to abortion, what's to stop them from being irresponsible and getting pregnant so many times only for them to have multiple abortions, esp late-term ones?"

This last bit is not to accuse anyone of being pro-life, but to point out that the logic is mirroring each other: use a dubious scenario that has no material evidence from the text/reality to induce caution against what could challenge the status quo or the legitimacy of such a thing that challenges the status quo, which in this case is Rhanewyra becoming the ruler by the usual means. Unchallenged and not usurped.

"but there's just no way that a woman & a bastard can inherit peacefully when 3 legitimate sons (with legitimate sons of their own) exist."

It is not speculation that Alicent never achieved what she set out to do in her first attempts, which was to prove Rhaenyra's sons were "legal" bastards to the public and force Viserys to publicly remove them from the succession. Alicent had to do a last-minute measure to usurp Rhneyra, and secretly. So yes, I believe Rhaenyra AND her brothers would be relatively safe if she ascended. Alicent's and the court's own measure of "true" Targness--having hatched a dragon in the cradle--was not even "achieved" by at least 2 out of 4 of Alicent's own children: Aemond & Helana both had to "claim" dragons and out of the "cradle" when they were older.

I would say that much of Westeros politics is denial or hiding things to get your way, as Tywin Lannister or most men in his position would have hidden that Cersei's lids her brothers and not her husbands so that he/they could keep having control the way they have been. Viserys has done the same. Real-life men have done the same for their wives (you can read Eleanor Herman's book Sex with the Queen to learn more about that) for their own benefit. I bet that if you actually went through many lords and their families' secrets (and even many of already-known things that are recorded in AWoIaF), you would find many things that could be many ways they have broken customs or tules to establish their own power or other advantage. The Hightowers do so with Lyonel Hightower and Samantha Tarly.

GRRM (So Spake Martin):

The short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history… which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory.

The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws. You could even make a case that the lords preferred the laws to be vague and contradictory, since that gave them more power. In a tangle like the Hornwood case, ultimately the lord would decide... and if some of the more powerful claimants did not like the decision, it might come down to force of arms.

So why did the greens not leave well enough alone or let Viserys claim Rhaenyra's sons/claim them as his heir' heirs? Not just because they were ultra-religious (the Faith labels bastards as inferior bc they were not born of "honor" or god-blessed unions but of lust, failure of self-restraint, etc.) but because they wanted to use an excuse to usurp her for their own path to power.

It is a narrative & lore FACT, not a speculation, that:

Rhaenyra had been heir and mother to those Velaryon boys for years, yet we hear no other lord or group plan for their downfall before the greens did; why did no one go against her in all that time? [goes into next point]

[to quickly use HotD, as I will later here, for a bit, since it seems you are only thinking of HotD] the Targayens had more dragons than the 3 Conquerors, yet the Conquerors conquered Westeros in under 2 years...I think that if they had stayed united as even HotD's very first episode's narration clues us into ("nothing can tear down the House of the Dragon other than itself"), they would have been able to crush any actual rebellion any group of lords tried to make, and the lords themselves knew that, which is why we have no evidence of any trying to plan against or prepare for anything against Rhaenyra -> even HotD atp contradicts your reasoning

Jace, despite being a bastard in some senses of the term, nevertheless commanded respect from several lords for his death to be seen as a tragedy not just for Rhaenyra but for the potential leadership...Gyldayn even goes on to say that his death was "felt so deeply" and he inspired one of the blacks' greatest allies to fight for Rhaenyra -> all this unsubtly implies they were not against his coming rule after Rhaenyra died, no matter his patrimony=

"i'm saying some of them def won't, and as long as aegon\aemond\daeron lives, there will always be someone advocating for their rights"

...Who?! If--as I mentioned & implied already above--Aegon, Aemond, & Daeron themselves swore off of trying to go for the throne? You can't make a united front of dragonriders do much of anything without being dragonriders yourselves!

How can they "advocate for their rights" when the greens claim that they have no rights to begin with, which is what I am saying they absolutely could have done. No one can force the greens or Aegon/Aemond/Daeron to oppose Rhaneyra without some really extreme measures.

Which is more likely to happen (if the green boys/men DON'T try to go to war with Rhaenyra or usurp her and instead support her rule or turn away anyone who offers to support them instead of Rhaenyra/propose to war with them against her?):

A) they and their dragons crush them

-OR-

B) these hopeful lords who want to war in the greens' names--without the greens actually giving them the permission or ability to---pressuring the green three to go to war

"jace will have to face the exact same situation with his own brothers aegon and viserys"

Even if this is a digression, no Jacaerys has nothing to fear from his own brothers because as I argued, he was already NOT universally despised or disapproved of as a future ruler for people to actually start preparations to rebel against either him or his mother. Again, no one ever proved he wasn't Laenor's son, and yes they still had/wanted to do so to achieve what they wanted (when i said above that Alicent tried).

"also, did we forget how easily rhaenyra offered to have her 10yo brother tortured when she felt like her children were in danger? do you guys really believe that she's above murdering to protect them?"

Not only did HotD make it so that their version of Rhaenyra was the one to say someone on the other side should be tortured or merely questioned rather than how it actually went down in the original story (pic below, from "A Question of Succession") with bkAlicent calling for Lucerys' eye to match Aemond's eyelessness,

but:

in episode 10, Rhaenyra says/shows that she is not willing to go to war or kill he siblings bc she wants to follow Viserys' nonconfrontational habits and avoid war/conflict "for the realm"...it was w hole thing between her & Daemon AND Rhaneys points it out to Corlys

even show!Rhaenyra was clearly trying to get Viserys to focus on the bastard name-calling to avert any more danger to her sons that the word opened up for them at that moment.

The Vhagar-eye incident is much different than Rhaenyra & her sons at a distance from any green, having the support that she had, and clearly stating that she didn't want to go to war bc she wanted to do as Viserys said and look after the realm. Because the trajectory of the situation was directly and quickly heading to a public chastisement and putting more strength to those accusations/"truth" to them being bastards.

This means that, yes, she did not want and was never going to kill her own brothers without provocation from the greens themselves. This is HotD's writing, not F&B's.

Even in F&B, bk!Rhaenyra explicitly states that she will not kill her brothers because that is kinslaying and that she blames Alicent and Otto for their participation in usurping her. That if they left the usurpation behind, she would spare them all ("The Blacks and the Greens"):

Which the show refused to include, but nevertheless, the show still makes it clear show!Rhaenyra would never and did not want to kill her own brothers.

Kinslaying is such a serious crime and taboo in Westerosi culture. Rhaenyra is saying that she would never break this taboo if her brother did not break another taboo first (disobeying a king's command, which was that she be queen). With Rhaenyra already being a woman and having her gender used against her as a reason why she couldn't possibly be a good ruler to some of those lords...why in the world would she ever make things worse for herself (at that particular point) in the eyes of her own supporters plus those who are "neutral" or support the greens by then contradicting herself & displaying even a willingness to kill said kin without proper provocation?! And yes, the usurpation was a proper provocation, as she, again, stated by saying they were going against Viserys' ruling that she be queen.

Never mind that all of this ONLY began because Alicent & the greens usurped Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra did not start the war, and the greens always knew that if they usurped her they were effectively beginning a war. HotD's Alicent may not be aware of this (and this is a knock against her intelligence as most usurpations lead to war in both real history and ASoIaF...we should blame the writers for that, bk!Alicent would never), but everyone else certainly was, esp Otto.

I can't state enough that there was no opposition (or not anywhere close enough if we still, for some inexplicable reason, argue that there was/could be) against Rhaenyra before the greens actually started to plot against her and finally usurped her. There is no evidence of such and in the scenario where they actually made front together, no dragons lord could really stand a chance against them for very long at all.

ok, so i've been getting a lot of "rhaenyra would never kill her siblings" asks recently.

first of all, no one is saying that rhaenyra WANTS to kill her brothers. but there's just no way that a woman & a bastard can inherit peacefully when 3 legitimate sons (with legitimate sons of their own) exist. this is not how westerosi politics work. the men in power wants to keep the men in power, this is the definition of patriarchy. and i'm not saying that's a good thing - because obvs it's not - but that's the truth. westeros is a patriarchal society.

the lords of westeros - the men in power - wants to preserve the existing order. legitimate sons inherit over daughters, bastards can't inherit. it's important to them because their own power is dependent on this very system. let's say rhaenyra becomes queen, and all of the sudden other firstborn daughters start to stand up and demand to be named heirs to their houses . let's say jace becomes the prince of dragonstone, and suddenly bastards that are older then their legitimate siblings start to demand their rights as well. from our modern pov - that's a great thing, but for the lords of westeros that's literally their worst nightmare.

"but a lot of houses supported rhaenyra". true! i'm not saying every lord in westeros will not accept her, i'm saying some of them def won't, and as long as aegon\aemond\daeron lives, there will always be someone advocating for their rights - and that's dangerous for rhaenyra and her family. so yeah, to protect herself and her children she will 100% kill her brothers. i'm not holding it against her - she's obvs going to care more about her children & herself then her brothers.

"but dorne ..." i feel like GRRM has made it abundantly clear that westeros does not want to become like dorne. dornish people are stereotyped and discriminated against - especially dornish women, that are viewed as promiscuous and are constantly oversexualized. westeros becoming like dorne is def not something westerosi men want.

ironically, jace will have to face the exact same situation with his own brothers aegon and viserys, but i digress.

also, did we forget how easily rhaenyra offered to have her 10yo brother tortured when she felt like her children were in danger? do you guys really believe that she's above murdering to protect them?

[elegantwoes]

I love how Alicent and Criston fucking is considered OOC and shit writing, but somehow Alicent choosing Rhaenyra over her own children (even though motherhood is big part of her characterization and a driving force to the choices she makes) is completely fine and considered peak writing because it’s ‘tRaGiC yUrI’.

[wellijustfinnihedoneofthebooks]

Its honestly so funny to me when people talk about ryan condal's "team black bias" and its like yall... i dont think condal cares about the fictional waring factions of incest kingdom... i think he just thinks rhaenyra is his main character and thus warps the world to suit rhaenyra

[idkjustletmescroll]

It's really weird how a lot of people in the got/hotd fandom don't seem to accept how grey grrm's characters are? Idk maybe I'm just on the wrong side of tumblr/tiktok, but...several things can be true at once.

Cersei Lannister can be an abuser, a killer, AND A VICTIM. She can love her children AND have deeply unhealthy relationships with them. Alicent Hightower can resent her children, have unhealthy relationships with them, have no idea how to parent them, and still love them. Rhaenyra can be the rightful heir to the iron throne with good intentions, and still seemingly have no idea how to rule. Viserys can make Rhaenyra his heir and talk about how much he loves Aemma and be a sh*t dad and partner. Sansa Stark can be mean to Arya and also a child whose behavior is reinforced by a guardian (the septa, who she is told to obey and learn from). Joffrey Baratheon can be a sadist who had to die for the good of the realm, and still a child. Robert can be funny and Ned's friend, and a terrible father and husband. Ned and Catelyn can be some of the best parents on either show, love each other and their kids, do everything for each other and their kids, and still have failed to prepare their children for the world they live in. The whole POINT of grrm's characters is that they're not good or evil, they're not black or white, their cruelty has a reason and they are all functioning within an inherently unjust society, and doing the best they can.

[horizon-verizon]

@not-a-real-fan

In response to these:

Espe these two parts:

she knew she was the heir to the throne and instead of attempting to take an active role in the managing of the realm especially when Aegon(2) was so obviously disinterested and unfit. She could have used those fifteen twenty ish years before Viserys’ death to show up the lords of the realm and prove that she’s the better option between her and her brother.

I know I've repeated myself to death atp, but here it is. It was actually better for her family & for herself to be on Dragonstone most of the time rather than at the Keep even with how the usurpation went about because:

Rhaenyra DID have ruling experience by her ruling Dragonstone (as was her right as the heir) going on for nearly 20 yrs! And she was ale to excercise true authority without Alicent interrupting or negating it. Even without Viserys to direct her or otherwise stymie her (the guy was not that great at mediation, for example)

she left bc her kids were in a "rivalry" w/Alicent's, and we can expect that Alicent had been telling her kids that Rhaenyra and her kids were he enemy...which means that coupled with the rumors of the V boys' bastardry that Alicent and whoever was close to her spread, would have had lasting effects on all Rhaenyra's kids' development...so Rhaenyra was being responsible, in a way, both as parent AND as a ruler bc if you got depressed or paranoid kids, one of them the future heir, that doesn't spell well for their mindset's

at Dragonstone, she can also consolidate her own resources and et up her base of operations, as she clearly did...because that's what castles are for

So it less black and white than how you put it. Like you mentioned, Aegon wasn't ever interested, so couple that with Rhaenyra's ACTUAL experience...yes she was the better "candidate". There was no real competition, the way you kinda imply. All Rhaenyra really had to fear were Alicent, Otto, & Aemond and even the last might have been suppressed if Alicent tried, before he actually killed anyone. Because it's the first 2 who have the brains and ambitions, as you mentioned.

As for this:

I also don’t think she should’ve been as surprised as she was when Otto and Alicent crowned Aegon

While one might say it's "naive" or stupid of her to expect people to keep to the oaths they swore to her when she was a child (Otto Hightower/the Hightowers were one of those lords):

oaths and the "honor" that is supposed to come from them are an integral part of this society, much as the taboo of kinslaying is; Rhaenyra believed in oaths and bonds from those because they were already a staple part of the ideological framework of the society and supported her coming up to power. She could be said to have held onto whatever the patriarchal customs of succession granted her. And there's nothing really wrong or stupid with that, it's pretty much consequential.

the greens could be said to be "naive" or stupid because most of teh houses joined together to fight for Rhaenyra instead of Aegon in the beginning....because the greens did not expect them to a) hold true to oaths or care abt them enough over Aegon/males being over girls in succession b) care more about making sure the custom of a lord/ruler getting to choose their own heir without fearing (or reduced fear) of someone ousting/fighting against that heir and thus disrupting those lords' plans for their own house -- basically many wanted they the assurance of their own sovereignty

why didn't Alicent and Otto not prepare Aegon, properly?! They thought they could bank entirely on males first [HotD] AND that Aegon would magically become the perfect little king for them, take advice & direction, maybe be as conflict-adverse as Viserys for some reason...how "naive" of them...

No, I don't give more weight to the greens' "naivety" or more grace than Rhaenyra's maybe belief in oaths and the king's word mattering above all else in a monarchy. Why? Because what does anyone really gain from the greens ruling? A failing king man-boy SA-er? Someone who clearly shows how violently angry he could get when just a little more triggered (shown in next section below> )Or a woman who BOTH has had to experience things man never would from early childhood AND who could set a stronger precedent for female rulers?

Then there's this:

They’ve [Alicent & Otto I assume] been running the realm long enough together that even with Aegon crowned he’d more inclined to heed his mother and grandfather’s advice.

And yet in the book we have several examples of Aegon NOT heeding a thing his grandfather tries to prevent him from doing, esp after finding out how easily Daemon took Harrenhal...

Until he finally dismisses Otto and puts Criston on as his Hand for a more militant and harsh campaign to crush Rhaenyra ["The Red Dragon and the Gold"]:

And before that piece of info, he nearly loses it 2x, first when he tried to order Rhaenyra imprisoned and killed and other people have to remind him that she's his sister and kinslaying is bad:

Then after she rejects the terms Orwyle delivers to her, Aegon rages again & decides it's wartime (The Blacks and the Greens):

Give a guy who's both been told he should have been king because he's male and his father "passed him over" anyway for a sister he clearly likes the best of his children, and dude has a huge complex. Probs felt useless all his life, now he has nearly absolute power but he fears that he'll be greatly punished for it from Rhaenyra and that this is his moment to truly shine and prove himself, you got a keg of problems you will eventually not be able to control all that well. As Otto finds out. And will Alicent be there when Aegon rules 24/7? Was she there at the battle where he was burnt to a crisp trying to kill Rhaenys at Rook's Rest? She probably even tried to stop him for the same reasons Rhaenyra should hold herself back from fighting (besides the fact that she was still recovering from one of the worst and goriest stillbirth deliveries described)...but obviously Aegon was too keen on revenge if Alicent did.

This:

Imo Rhaenyra should never have left the capital, her role as cupbearer and later assisting on the small council would have been proof enough that she’s at least interested in and capable of rule

I already explained why her leaving Dragonstone was actually for her interests & had benefits above. She was always interested and she always had actual ruling experience, it's just that the castle became hostile to her and her sons, she grew experience herself, AND Dragonstone became her actual base of operations in the beginning of the war. Where also, the Targs also have many dragons, the main source of power for the Targs. The whole reason Rhaenyra goes back to Dragonstone at the end is to find another dragon & regroup so she get get back to the war.

Aegon even, atp, tries to say he'll go claim another dragon "better" than Sunfyre.

This:

Idgaf about the strong boys bc she had no real choice there but I mean, she could have picked a donor that at least looked like her or her husband.

And yet, I see by how you call them "Strong" instead of "Velaryon" you do think they are bastards and that this matters. Sure, Jan. I don't think you're as neutral as you're trying to play off.

This also shows how you still blame her for being married to Laenor & having "basatrds". Esp since you immediately back this up with the idea that she could have gotten a "donor" who looks like what a Valyrian typically looks like.

Like I said to 2rats1gogh in this OP posts' comments:

Any other man in Westeros than Laenor is a gamble, bc she was right to say that that husband will look at her as more his way into royalty. You run the risk of said not-Laenor-"choice"being a man who even plots to practically reduce the amount of power Rhaenyra actually had, like with Juana I of Castile & her husband Philip ! of Castile. What are the chances that her not-Velaryon husband would be more like a Jason Lannister, who is looking at her as more of a way in? Giving Rhaenyra even less protections against said plotting husband? This was another consideration they would have had

Who would have "donated" and not likely come up to them all later and say, "I'm the father of these kids, I want in on this political game" thus endangering Rhaenyra and those kids? Harwin, Rhaenyra trusted because they go to know each other genuinely and he didn't ask anymore of her nor was ambitious. Rhaenyra was very lucky to have had someone like him not just for the kids she needed, but for the intimacy and little safety she could experience.

And don't mention a slave or a prostitute. If we hate Daemon or Aegon for their brothel visits or rape, Rhaenyra doing this would still be exploiting the bodies of the underclass who's body is being used by a much more privileged and powerful person. Nor a slave from Lys or whatever, who can't say no. More reasons for people--esp TG--to hate her character? Nah.

Finally this:

the primary issue is that Rhaenyra left the capital and allowed The greens to close rank around her father and start turning the realm against her.

I could have linked this list of green vs black supporters earlier, but this now seem more appropriate after i already answered you.

So we go back to square one: Rhaenyra was "entitled" bc she was literally entitled and she was a royal-noble. Of the two, Aegon felt & was unjustly and unlawfully entitled. At least she as actually named as heir over the likewise royal-noble Aegon II.

"Rhaenyra is really entitled"

Entitled to what? The crown she inherited by her own father and king? Isn't that what all nobles do anyway (aka inheriting their lands and titles from their ancestors)?

I don't see the fans calling the Hightowers entitled for keep on ruling on their fiefdom on Reach. Or any other Noble House or character for the matter. Why should Rhaenyra be the exception?

[lady-corrine]

I am definetly of the opinion that bookwise Syrax commited suicide after she killed Joffrey because she felt Rhaenyra's pain.

Nor would she loose her hold upon him… until that dread moment when Syrax fell. Unchained and riderless, Syrax might have easily flown away from the madness. The sky was hers. She could have returned to the Red Keep, left the city entirely, taken wing for Dragonstone. Was it the noise and fire that drew her to the Hill of Rhaenys, the roars and screams of the dying dragons, the smell of burning flesh? We cannot know, no more than we can know why Syrax chose to descend upon the Shepherd’s mobs, rending them with tooth and claw and devouring dozens, when she might as easily have rained fire on them from above, for in the sky no man could have harmed her.

[horizon-verizon]

tbh there was no reason to say that alicent and haelena were beloved by the smallfolk. they're part in starting the war that put the smallfolk to their knees, it's more reasonable for them to be hated than loved

(Webpage Link)

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Helaena's inactivity works well for her reputation (in-world and out) under the post-Fall of KL situation bc she's surrounded by more actively ruling women and actively ruling women are more under fire than those who ruler for a man, work behind the scenes, or directly rule. Since female rulership is not favored and even suspicious under Andal-Faith patriarchy.

Her own inactivity and the Faith-Andal social expectation of an ideal queen consort to be just a womb-for-heirs can do nothing to spoil the smallfolk's already favorable image/idea of her...bc she doesn't do anything that could affect said image.

Rhaenyra is the "bad guy" for the taxes and trying to rule; Helaena is the "good guy", for not ruling at all (and sitting there ready for symbolic use).

The whole point of GRRM writing about who was "loved" as a Queen and who wasn't was to point out how people in KL characterized a "good" Queen by her innocence, "sweetness" that is really their non-rulership and inactivity. Rhaenyra ruled obviously and directly, while Alicent ruled through others and for her sons in their absence while never having to really put down riots aside from the one she triggered by displaying a dragon's head through the streets. Alicent, unlike Rhaenyra, did not have to contend with rumors being spread about her specifically to destabilize her hand. Helaena didn't rule at all she was always just a consort who affected Aegon only once and that was accompanied by Alicent and other councilmen calming Aegon down when he wanted to imprison and kill Rhaenyra...nothing to do w/the smallfolk.

Yes, Helaena was a kinder, "gentler" person than those around her and even before the war she could have been loved for that....but she was also the most passive & accessory person than those around her and never effected any policies or laws, unlike Alysanne. Helaena never had be into a position as to decided what strategy or tactic to win smallfolk over or to support a city or defend against attackers to said city or to protect her family's image, prestige, etc. other than birthing and nurturing heirs. She never had to implement any unsavory taxes like Jaehaerys-Rego Draz or Rhaenyra-Bartimos or Rogar/Alyssa-Edwell or even just Alicent with her choice to drag around a dragon head. Or Dany with her opening the fighting pits to save her people, deciding not to kill her hostages, releasing a prisoner some of her council advised her not to, trying to get Drogo to stop the rape of Lhazarene women, etc. So of course she doesn't get any hate from anyone, much less the smallfolk who'd be most affected.

Remember that before the war, Rhaenyra's "Realm's Delight" moniker was also her image-advantaged(?) from the singers giving said name (bc child-Rhaenyra was seen as "delightful" at court where those singers are as they also were trying to gain favor from Viserys).

Likely, Viserys and his council used said moniker to their advantage and let their audience develop a stronger impression of Rhaenyra's overall loveliness. And not bc her child self--the precociousness, the beauty, etc.--wasn't real nor not bc she didn't grow up to be actually very beautiful, but bc it helped to bolster her image, this girl who would need a lot to supplement her newfound heirship since she was female.

Remember, too, how Daenaera Velaryon's childhood beauty was lauded and intertwined with her arrival to KL and the Maiden's Ball? Yeah.

It was worked with for Rhaenyra's later Riverland tour and worked to get the riverlords more on her side. this is the nature of the "two-faced coin" that F&B EXPLICITLY stated were of love and hate ("Rhaenyra Triumphant"):

The smallfolk did not know Helaena as subjects--esp peasants--can't personally know their leaders and their families. They love an idea of her; they hate an idea of Rhaenyra. And both images go through exchanges from the circumstances, not ONLY through the person's actions. And tbh and as the book tries to tell us, that is the best position a queen (consort) could have when she is surrounded by women (dowager, consort, regnant whatever) who take on a more active, male-conceived role in leadership.

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This is bigger than "who was the bitch-queen" or the "perfect queen"?...precisely bc there is no such thing as a "perfect" queen aside form the queen who does nothing at all but be a womb for heirs. And if she does do charities, it's not even guaranteed to be exclusively be for the smallfolk. Alysanne was genuinely loved as a queen bc everyone could see how she affected Jaehaerys, she used said influence to make better laws for smallfolk and it was very obvious and public CONSTANTLY, went--by herself--to create women's courts, AND was she visually pretty. Helaena does not have such influence nor initiative; so the love for her cannot be from anything she did but what she stands for in the memory of the smallfolk, who at the were starving and in constant survival mode, desperate for economic and other types of "relief" (that yes, they should have gotten but didn't from noble warfare upending their already probs not-so-great abilities to sustain themselves pre-war), looking for something and anything like safety if not outright real physical safety.

This has interesting commentary and scenarios of what queenship means and how quickly the "coin" of favor of the public--noble or smallfolk, but esp the smallfolk--can turn! And it turns for the smallfolk depending on the immediate results of a leader's actions or to contrast an imagined/real "better" past against the reality under the current leader (Aerys II vs post-Robert's death).

Even way before this, we constantly hear from Jaehaerys I's early reign about "words are wind" and words vs action...let's piece things together, people!