#Peggy Carter meta

[incorrectssr]

Thinking about how Peggy never asks for Dottie’s real name or ever seeks out any identifying details about her this evening. It’s something that has always puzzled me about the interrogation scene. Considering that they’re looking at Dottie as a permanent fixture in their prison system, it seems peculiar that there is little to no interest in using her to uncover more about what they found of the Red Room in Belarus (knowing, based on reliable similarities, that Dottie comes from the same or at least a very similar background) and the type of person they need to look out for (and also… you lived next to this woman for weeks, if not months Peg).

But then I think of how Peggy approaches Dottie. “Fear is the one chip that little girls who grow up handcuffed to their beds learn to trade on. And I, for one, am not afraid of you.” And she uncuffs her. In full respect to Peggy, Dottie doesn’t try anything and, based on the conversations had on the other side of the mirror, they’re at it for a long time.

This idea of fear in mind, I wonder then if Peggy doesn’t inquire about anything personal about Dottie because she knows that there is very little that’s real about Dottie. Even just in her time in New York, she has been Ida Emke and Dottie’s whole monologue about ‘girls like you’ and how ‘now I can be anybody I want’ shows how transient the idea of identity is to Dottie and it’s a detail that Peggy has not missed. It’s even possible that Dottie doesn’t know who Dottie is and such a possible line of questioning could bring her even further from her goal (neutralising Soviet threats on US soil) than where she began. It’s not like Dottie really ought to be going anywhere anytime soon, and thus it is a line of inquiry that can be tabled for later.

And that is the difference between how Peggy and Jack approach her. Peggy outlines exactly what she wants from Dottie without flinching, knowing that there is more beneath the surface and respecting that that is a rough topic that is not conducive to her objective or her subject’s mental state. The subject is more likely to get cagey and evasive if asked about personal matters, so she asks about something solid, something she knows Dottie knows and something that opens a line of more personal communication wherein Peggy is in charge and control.

Jack, on the other hand, doesn’t know what he’s asking Dottie. He’s mimicking what he’s seen Peggy do but he doesn’t know why he’s doing it and that’s why Dottie can see right through him. He’s the stick and Dottie has been raised knowing only the stick.

Goodness I love this show.

[likea-black-widow-baby]

Thinking about how the Marvel ABC shows are a rare example of

a. the protagonist actually being the fan favorite, and

b. that protagonist and fan favorite being a woman

Daisy and Peggy are the fan favorites of their respective shows by a landslide, which is kind of incredible? Especially for early MCU when they still thought a female-led movie would flop.

[amarriageoftrueminds]

Can't stop thinking about the idea of CATFA as a propagandised version of the Captain America story which exists in-universe and Steve seeing it and being absolutely livid about how 90% of it represents him.

.

Examples: being furious that it doesn’t mention his mother (his moral compass) anywhere, or his socialist politics pre-war, implies he only wants to fight to be like one of the guys and get a girlfriend?! (barely mentions Nazis),

implies he simply cannot have had any romantic attachments before serum, yet skims right over his disabilities as if his only problem was just being short, posits that Bucky would’ve spent his last night in Brooklyn off on a double date with two total strangers rather than with his own friends and family, (no mention of the Barneses anywhere?), 

has Steve scoffing at the idea of working in a factory (when he’d consider himself lucky to get a job in the times he grew up in), almost his whole relationship with the Howlies relegated to a single silent montage, none of the details of their missions shown except one, not a single girl in his USO tour gets a mention or name, ditto none of the women of the SSR/Army/that the Howlies met in the field, and wastes most of the screen time on that creepy violent nepotism-hire who was convinced Steve had given her some kind of secret signal he wanted to date her (at the time he just thought she’d taken the hint and was trying to beard him??), 

also puts her, Stark and Phillips in places they never went (why would a scientist, an old CO and an intelligence analyst be in Italy, or in the middle of a battle?? that’s not their job!), 

says Steve would waste his last precious moments of contact talking to a woman he’s not dating rather than saying goodbye to the men who’ve been fighting beside him for over a year?? 

And that he wouldn’t even bother to look for Bucky’s body?? (Only thing it got right was how much Bucky mattered to him / being a big part of why he wanted to fight!)

[tremorsmackenzie]

whoever wrote todays episode of what if, theyre a fucking genius. peggy instantly recognizing bucky as the winter soldier, the VERTIGO, and then howard figuring out a way to save him amidst the world almost being destroyed, that is fanfiction level of fanservice. the last time i felt this catered to was when i watched agents of shield. im looking forward to all the fic thats gonna come out of this, because look at the potential.

howard isnt gonna die. that alone is a huge thing in regards to tonys character development. bucky is gonna get healed probably by the nineties or something, and likely going to work for shield, which means hell be there when steve is thawed out, and winter soldier, if it still happens, will be very different. my head is literally exploding with the possibilities. i love this show so freaking much, and i hate it for never following up on these one offs

[velvet4510]

Apparently I’m in the mood for expressing an MCU hot take at this hour, so here goes:

Steve going back in time was NOT a betrayal of his and Bucky’s friendship.

Look, at first glance, I get why Steve’s Endgame ending feels like it’s going against “I’m with you to the end of the line.” Even I had my reservations about it for a while, once my Steggy-shipping heart calmed down from its thrilled palpitations when I first watched the film.

But after giving it a lot of thought, I think in the end, it was for the best that Steve and Bucky went their separate ways, and here’s why.

Once they reunited in the present day, Steve and Bucky’s relationship became extremely codependent, and their entire arc was learning to grow out of that.

We see in Civil War especially how far Steve was willing to go to protect Bucky, and how Bucky became fully dependent on Steve. And remember that Steve had just lost Peggy before finding Bucky again, meaning that Bucky was all he had left of his former 1940s life. The fact that he fought so hard for Bucky is symbolic for his arc, far beyond their friendship. Of course he did it because he loved Bucky, that’s never in doubt. But I also think that he felt an equally strong love for what Bucky represented, which is the life he lost. His clinging to Bucky already showed us that he was unable to truly let go of the 1940s, though he tried. He tried to believe he had let go - Age of Ultron is all about him trying - but Civil War makes it clear that he will never truly belong to the present day.

Same goes for Bucky. Steve was his only reminder of his true self, of who he used to be, of the life he lost. He loved Steve himself, of course, but he also clung to Steve because Steve also represented something beyond just their friendship; he represented the hope for Bucky’s soul. That he was not HYDRA’s monster anymore, that he had a chance of living life as himself again.

The ending of Civil War set the two of them on the path that always inevitably led to what we got from Endgame. Steve and Bucky finally loosened their metaphorical grip on each other; Bucky chose to turn himself over to Wakanda, and Steve let him go. They both acknowledged that Bucky’s need for healing went far beyond Steve. While Steve was his starting point, Steve’s faith the thing that gave him hope for himself, Bucky needed far more work on himself than Steve alone could provide. So they started taking baby steps away from their codependency; Bucky moved to Wakanda and Steve continued with the Avengers. Fans who talk and act as though Steve and Bucky’s lives fully and completely revolve around each other, and each other ONLY, clearly have not actually watched the movies critically.

The narrative always acknowledged that Steve and Bucky’s codependency was not healthy, and that as much as they loved each other, they needed to learn to be their own people, and not be defined only through each other’s eyes.

Which brings us to Endgame. Perhaps the most significant detail about Steve’s final choice is that he canonically told Bucky about it ahead of time. Bucky confirmed this verbally in TFATWS. Steve did NOT return to the 1940s on short notice; he let Bucky know about it. And, on the other side of the same coin, the exact details of this conversation are private. For all we know, Steve could’ve asked Bucky to come with him, to also seize a chance at getting back the life he lost. Steve could’ve ensured that Bucky was alright with this, and if Bucky really wasn’t ready to lose his support, then he wouldn’t go. All of these are very in-character possibilities for Steve, and there is NOTHING whatsover in canon that states that he didn’t say these things.

But what happened? Bucky let him go. Bucky told Steve to go live his dream, to go be with the love of his life. Bucky was alright with it. (Remember Bucky knew from the start how important Peggy was to Steve. He was a first-hand witness to Peggy declaring Steve “the right partner.” He knew what this chance at time travel meant for Steve.) And by letting him go, Bucky chose to stay in the present. Would he have been able to do this in Civil War? No, and that’s because since then, he grew. They grew. They got to a place where the cords of codependency were finally cut, where they both knew they could live their own lives and not rely on each other to keep one another upright. They finally knew what paths they wanted to follow to live their fullest lives, and those paths were not the same one. Steve embraced a future in the past, while Bucky embraced the present moment. In other words, they finally reached “the end of the line.”

Oh, and I find it absolutely hilarious that some people are like “how dare he retire with Peggy while Bucky is out there being tortured in the 40s?” Steve made a branched timeline when he returned to Peggy, meaning no matter what he did from then on, the Sacred Timeline wouldn’t change. And he knew that. And there is not a single piece of text to be found anywhere in canon that tells us that he didn’t immediately tell Peggy that HYDRA was still around and that they didn’t team up, take HYDRA down, and rescue Bucky before New Year’s 1950. So that argument is ridiculous.

Also, did Steve “leave Bucky alone,” as many have said? Uhhh, NO. We see this in TFATWS.

After Steve left, Bucky was not alone. He had Sam, aka a professional counselor. He had tons of friends in Wakanda, and those friendships were close enough that he could successfully request a new suit for Sam on a whim. And Sam told him exactly what he’d been needing to hear for so long: “It doesn’t matter what Steve thought. You gotta stop looking to other people to tell you who you are.”

On top of that, as we see at the end of the show, Bucky now has an entire family: he’s bonding with Sarah (who knows what that might lead to), and he’s another uncle to AJ and Cass, and he’s bringing cake to the cookout and the arm that used to be a killing weapon, he now uses as a plaything for the children to dangle from. The entire community has welcomed him as one of their own.

Steve and Bucky’s story is a beautiful one because it shows how true friends help guide you to where you need to be in life, and their support sets you on the path to being your best and fullest self. The health of Bucky and Steve’s friendship was destroyed by their shared trauma of being taken from their normal lives in the 1940s, and they clung to each other for emotional survival. Then, gradually, they helped each other get back on their own two feet, and when the time came, they learned to let each other go, because they loved each other so much.

In other words, the finale of Endgame was the natural and inevitable endpoint for their story arc. If it ended with them still together, and clinging on to each other, then what would be the point? That would just be character regression for both of them. But instead, the story concludes with both of them finally free from the codependency, leaving only their love for each other, which they will always carry with them.

[charcubed]

Disneyland's Rogers: The Musical, propaganda that turns Steve Rogers into more myth than man, and revisionist history (possibly) to a purpose

Any of my thoughts in this post could just be me reading too far into things. I'm very aware of that, and please know that this post exists just because this sort of thing is fun for me! This is a thought exercise where we propose "What if we live in a world where the MCU is actually doing a cool and interesting thing as a longcon?" If you have anger at Marvel, that's valid and relatable, but please don't get angry at me or imply I'm an MCU stan who doesn't think critically about the mouse. Thanks!

Breaking news: I'm back on my bullshit!

A quick personal recap: I infamously hated Avengers: Endgame for a long list of reasons (and I even rewrote the movie). One of those reasons is that I've always taken issue with Steve's ending. But in the years since then, and as the MCU's phase 4 has evolved, my frustration at Steve's "ending" has turned into an ongoing and legitimate theory that the MCU could be slowly leading into a loosely adapted Secret Empire plot line. I know we've all been joking about Steve being trapped or about an imposter Steve since 2019, but uhhh, it's kind of not a joke to me anymore? It feels weirdly plausible at this point and so I enjoy discussing the potential.

You can find a full elaboration on that here, where I wrote out my "Steve was snatched by HYDRA" theory in 2021.

In that post, one of the things I mentioned at the time was Rogers: The Musical being in the Hawkeye trailer.

[The musical's] very existence is an example of how in-universe the stories of the lives of the heroes are being commodified, especially (in terms of how they’re framing it) for Steve’s. The heroes are no longer seen as people, if they ever were. They are, as Kate Bishop says to Clint in a recently released clip, more about “branding.” Sam Wilson will be redefining the shield moving forward in a Cap context, but simultaneously, the world is still enamored by Steve Rogers as a symbol in his own right. And that is ripe for manipulation as a Trojan horse to control public opinion… whether in the context of things like this by themselves (is the musical portraying Steve accurately, or is it painting an inaccurate picture of him the world accepts as fact?) or in future (is this propaganda that makes the public see Steve a certain way and continue to love him, to set up a fake or brainwashed Steve coming on the scene later?).

Now a form of the musical exists in full, at Disneyland and all over Youtube. Considering some of its baffling content – which I will break down below – this perspective seems even more strongly worth considering.

I have two main reasons for why I'm defending examining this musical so closely:

1. It is (arguably) an in-universe piece of media that has bearing on the MCU canon. It isn't like any other typical Disneyland attraction; its very existence is meta and it was in canon first. Obviously it's seen in Hawkeye, but there are also posters for it in several different phase 4 properties. It's lurking in the background indefinitely. So what can this musical tell us about what the wider public within the MCU is being told about the life story of Steve Rogers?

2. This Secret Empire graphic – which is animated in the center of the stage of a prolonged period of time – feels like a literal sign to pay attention.

Granted, this is obviously still ancillary material. 99% of the MCU audience will never see this musical, whether in person or on YouTube. But just because it isn't a vital piece doesn't mean it's automatically an entirely irrelevant piece.

They've given me an inch with that sign and I'm taking a mile.

So if you're interested, please join me on this journey :)

For the record, let me just say that I salute the creative team behind this show. It's pretty fun and the songs are catchy, the sets and costuming are cool, and the cast is overall very talented.

It's also fucking maddening. LMAO.

Why? Firstly, because of the seemingly deliberate ahistorical inaccuracies. We all know Ant-Man is wrongly shown in the Battle of New York, which originally "came from [the Hawkeye showrunner] and Marvel, as something to further aggravate Hawkeye as he watched the show, and also as a comment on how movies and articles and people always get something wrong." It seems like they expanded those meta nods, but most inaccuracies are now in service of glorifying Steve and Peggy's "love story." Yes, romance objectively makes for good theater; but again, I feel that this is worth examining considering the full context.

And secondly, Steve's ending is framed as an offer presented to him, convincing him it's the happy ending he deserves because he's tired. In my mind, these two big elements go together, and I'll walk you through the details of what happens in the musical before I tie the thought threads back around into some theorizing.

For your reference, here's a list of the main songs and story beats:

• "U-S-Opening Night" - the Starkettes (who are basically a Greek chorus) frame the show's story, and then it turns into an ensemble that loosely takes place at the Stark Expo. • "I Want You" – Steve's "I want" song about trying to enlist in the army. • "Star-Spangled Man With A Plan" – Steve performing on the USO tour obviously, and then there's a reprise with an added voiceover that (very briefly) covers the Howling Commandos' rescue + the war via comic book imagery. • "What You Missed" – Fury and the Starkettes tell Steve some pop culture things he missed while he was frozen, + they tell him about the Avengers. Then Fury goes down a list of other hero characters, including the Guardians? Doctor Strange? Wanda?? It plays loose and fast with time, because many non-2012 characters are bafflingly mentioned in this nonlinear Avengers list – including the Winter Soldier (???). • "Save the City" – this is the song seen in Hawkeye, with the civilians + the Avengers all involved, but it's slightly different here and expanded to also reference other battles. • "End of the Line" – Old Steve presents main Steve with the time stone as an opportunity for his happy ending, and they reflect on things together. (Yes, this is insane.) • "Just One Dance" – Steve and Peggy reunite and sing about their love. • And then there's basically a reprise of "Save the City," with the Starkettes and the whole cast closing the finale out.

Right out of the gate, let's address this: the main reason you're going to see some fans pissed about this musical is not only that Steve and Peggy's ~epic romance~ is made a pillar of the story... but also that Bucky's importance/involvement in Steve's life is minimized as much as possible.

And they took Bucky-related elements from canon and made them center more around Peggy instead.

• For some weird reason, Peggy is in the Stark Expo scene. When a soldier is hitting on the Starkettes ("hey sweetheart, I wanna dance!"), Steve tells the soldier to show the ladies some respect. The soldier grabs Steve and throws him down, and then Peggy swoops in to yell "Pick on someone your own size!" and punches the guy before walking away. So she's given Bucky's TFA line verbatim, and she is given the role he had of saving Steve from bullies. There is blatantly no reason they couldn't have had Bucky still serve that function and be truer to "history," because he briefly enters this scene in uniform less than a minute later to announce he's shipping out to the 107th – and then he spins off with a date on his arm. (We don't see Bucky on stage again until the full cast comes out for the finale!)

• After the Star-Spangled Man show, Peggy rushes in to talk to Steve. Steve is excited about his USO performance (???) but she urgently tells him to listen as she says that the 107th has been captured. Peggy apparently knows it's Bucky's division, and she knows Steve is going to go, so she tells him that she's already arranged transport for him. This is a subtle twist from the truth of how it went down in TFA, in which Steve recognized 107 as the number of Bucky's division, and his dogged determination inspired Peggy to relent and help his rescue mission. Here, Peggy is given a stronger role in the Cap origin story. And before Steve rushes off, Peggy sings a short untitled ballad hoping for their dance, so Steve pauses before he leaves to ask her to go on a date with her when he returns. • The most egregious Bucky-to-Peggy change of all is the song "End of the Line," in which the infamous Steve and Bucky line/promise (that broke Bucky's brainwashing...) is re-contextualized to be about ???? Peggy waiting for Steve in the past??? Old Man Steve and regular Steve sing it together. But we'll go back to that in a minute.

Again, I get it, yeah? It's for theater. Whatever. But in reality, the obvious logical truth is that Peggy is centered (to the point of taking elements from Bucky's story, and in turn Bucky is downplayed) because they needed to convince the audience that Steve going back in time to be with her makes sense. Steve's time travel ending had to be justified, so the Peggy and Steve "love story" had to be a pillar in this with everything else being given lesser weight.

And the inherent selfishness of him doing something as big as going back in time also had to be justified... which is why they do their best to convince you Steve fought so much he deserved it.

Let me elaborate on that by describing the lead-up to the "End of the Line" song.

So, right before "End of the Line" is "Save the City" – which includes Steve belting "I can do this all day!" repeatedly, of course. It's the 2012 Battle of New York as the Avengers come together to win.

As they begin to disperse, the song then transitions to a voiceover alert mentioning Sokovia being under attack by artificial intelligence (a.k.a. Age of Ultron). The Avengers group rushes back to center stage to say "Save the city! Help us win!" together for battle again.

And then things get fucking weird.

Because the next voiceover threat is "Washington DC. Attack: the Winter Soldier." This is not accurate to the order of events! The Winter Soldier events were before Age of Ultron; the public of the MCU would also know this.

And suddenly on stage Steve is now in the center while everyone else gestures to him. Instead of singing with him, they're telling him "Save the city! Help us win!"

Then, another voiceover: "Wakanda, under attack" (Infinity War) and again, Steve is centered while everyone else points to him. The ensemble says, "Save the city, help us win! Save us all from the state we're in! Got to hear you, got to hear you, got to hear you say..." as Steve is buckling to his knees under their pointing. And as the lights go down to one spotlight on him and everyone else leaves, he says "I can do this all day" one last time, but now it's subdued.

The implication is that Steve has been fighting and fighting, people leave him or he loses them, and he's tired.

And then fucking Old Man Steve arrives.

He says "On your left," because yes, they gave him Sam Wilson's line. BATSHIT.

So now there's two Steves on stage! There has been no mention of Thanos or infinity stones or anything up to this point! (I can only assume that's because in the MCU universe no one would want to be reminded of the trauma of "the Blip" – though it's pretty wild that they're allowed to know about magical time travel?)

Steve is baffled by Old Man Steve's arrival. I, too, was baffled by Old Man Steve's arrival.

As Steve questions how this is possible, Old Man Steve shows him the time stone from his pocket – and only the time stone – which Steve recognizes.

OLD MAN: "You've got to remember where you've been to know where you're going." STEVE: "Where am I going?" OLD MAN: "A date with destiny." STEVE: “Destiny. So we’re the hero till the end?” OLD MAN: “That’s the thing about endings, Steven. They can be rewritten.”

Lmao???????

Steve starts singing about how he hopes this means they "win" and calls himself a "tired hero."

STEVE: "But sometimes I wonder, who will save the savior? Can we really do this all day? So here I am, now and also then. Just a man, looking back at where he's been." OLD MAN: "The road is rough but wounds are healed by a thing called time. You can't forget what's waiting at the end of the line."

Me, watching this: the fact that he says this out of the blue makes absolutely no sense.

There's a bit more singing, including "end of the line" repetition, and then Old Man Steve pulls out the time stone to essentially show visions of... I don't fucking know. Past, present, and future?

That's pre-serum Steve, Steve with Mjolnir, and Sam Wilson as the new Cap. This is the only reference to Sam in the whole thing.

More singing, and then: Peggy's silhouette.

OLD MAN: "Can't forget who's waiting..." STEVE: "I can't forget who's waiting..." BOTH: "Don't forget who's waiting..." STEVE: "At the end of the line."

At this point I'm like, what in the hell?

Did Old Man Steve just brainwash normal Steve into thinking "end of the line" is now about Peggy? Because uhhhh, sorry, that's what it feels like!

Then Steve uses the stone to go back in time, reunites with Peggy, etc. etc. finale.

It's truly some crazy shit.

[drags hands down face]

Look... there's a lot to unpack here, and there's a lot that gets me about it. I know this is dramatized for the stage! I KNOW! But the fact that Old Man Steve shows up to convince Steve he should go back in time makes me want to gnaw on furniture.

Another person essentially uses the lure of a life with Peggy to tempt Steve into doing this, dramatized or not. That is how it's framed.

It's a hell of a way to frame it, and it makes Steve's ending stand in even starker contrast to so many other things in phase 4. Desperately trying to go backwards when you shouldn't or to bring back a lost lover is an evil temptation, and it results in a trap or negative cosmic consequences for basically all of the other characters in the MCU.

• In Shang-Chi, Wenwu is tempted by the Soul Eaters beyond the Dark Gate. They use the voice of his deceased wife to convince him to set them free. • In "What If" episode 4, Doctor Strange becomes evil in a desperate bid to save Christine and he destroys his universe. Along the way, he tries to tempt/trap the good Strange who's fighting him by using visions of Christine, but good Strange knows she isn't real. • Wanda's grief and desire to bring back Vision leads to – well, you know. • In No Way Home, Peter trying to undo things is what causes the multiverse problems.

And the fact that they frame it as Steve being tired, so basically the argument is he deserves that time travel ending (just like MCU fans who defend Endgame say in real life)... Well.

There's no way to make it hold up, especially because in "What If" they explicitly subverted that and had Captain Carter not go back in time despite how she felt she'd "earned" it.

Lastly, in this musical as Steve decides to pursue time travel as his course of action, he basically has the meaning or memory of "end of the line" rewritten for him. I refuse to not think that is some nefarious shit. Yes, it's not out of the realm of possibility that it's just some general Disney erasing Steve and Bucky nonsense.

But... this is on another level to me. I do think that it's a blatant choice that they had to be aware even general MCU fans would call bullshit on. Everyone knows it's inaccurate. "End of the line" is embedded in pop culture consciousness as being connected to Bucky. It just is! Surely that means it's not a stretch to theorize it could be deliberate meta commentary.

How, in the MCU world, would the in-universe playwrights even know the phrase "end of the line"? How the fuck would it be accidentally applied to Steve and Peggy? Not to sound like a crazy person, but who the fuck was rooting around in Steve and/or Bucky's personal business or their brains in order to obtain that knowledge and then remix it, and why? Neither of them would flippantly mention it in the public eye or interviews ever. So where did its inclusion come from?

And in the finale ensemble, this is Bucky's line when he comes out on stage and salutes + points to Steve: "Don't forget who's waiting..." And Old Man Steve completes it with "...at the end of the line."

What on God's green earth am I meant to do with THAT?

Smh.

The vibes are fucked, folks.

The MCU public wouldn't know enough to say the vibes are fucked. The MCU public wouldn't know the origin of "end of the line" as a phrase. But us? The ones who know the "true story" via the movies? We can call bullshit.

Whether the creative team behind this musical did every aspect of this consciously or not, in my opinion the fact that they had to tweak canon "history" to A) make Peggy's involvement in Steve's life more central and B) emphasize Steve as a tired hero all works as commentary on and almost a condemnation of Endgame's frustrating ending. In a way, it's also what Endgame did with the compass and 1973 moment with Peggy as well.

Steve's ending had to be convincing.

It's theater.

And so, maybe the same is true for the in-narrative perspective of this musical in the context of the MCU world. What purpose would it serve to tell the MCU public a feel-good narrative about how all Steve Rogers wanted was to no longer be a tragic man out of time and get to make a life with his best girl? To frame it as being about how he fought so hard for years and so he earned a happy ending? To minimize and nearly erase Bucky's importance in his life?

Who would want to do that sort of propaganda, and why?

The MCU civilians are given this happy explanation and maybe don't widely question it. Who cares about the details or logistics if it makes a good story, I guess. It's a stretch, but maybe they mostly applaud it. Maybe they're happy for "America's favorite son" (not unlike people who uncritically liked Endgame). In a way, it's even a rehabilitation of his image (after the Accords) like putting the shield on the Statue of Liberty. And maybe they'd even be ready and waiting to applaud if Steve ever made a dramatically selfless and de-aged return to the spotlight or a position of authority.

But mostly, the public is being conditioned to not know or to forget that anyone else like Bucky Barnes or Sam Wilson would possibly know Steve Rogers the person well enough in the modern day to call bullshit on any of this – or on his hypothetical miraculous future return.

So. Sure, it's probably nothing.

But what if it's not?

-------

UPDATE: @faeriecap added to this post with some incredible information and further behind-the-scenes context about the MCU/Marvel stuff at Disney parks! Check it out here :)

[facelessfinest]

Never before have I unironically used the phrase Mary Sue, but what they did with Carter in this final episode was just fucking nuts man. Kohhori was cool, I like her, but giving Carter every fucking major weapon in the canon? And then having the fucking WATCHER?? Jump in with that “it couldn’t have been me, it had to be you” fucking bullshit? She is not all that, marvel.

But you wanna know who is???

FUCKING STRANGE SUPREME.

I cannot FUCKING believe they made the most profoundly powerful iteration of a character, just to fucking throw him in the waste bin when it turned out people were way more interested in what he had going on than what Carter was doing.

There was no reason they couldn’t have made her interesting without nerfing everyone else, except that they don’t fucking know how apparently because marvel is fucking trash these days…

Seriously, there are two big ways to ruin any interest people have for a character you plan to make the face of a show/arc/phase. One, shove them in every episode and keep forcing them into plots where people don’t want them. Two, fucking killing off better characters for taking up the limelight! Look, I like the idea of Strange fighting the amalgamation of his grief, but there’s no reason he should have died over it, especially when Carter is in the same boat. This episode would have been way better if we got rid of the forced high stakes, and just had two characters suffering the same kind of grief talk it out with each other, find a way to heal, maybe by leaning on each other a little bit. They are unique in the sense that they are always lost in time, struggling to find their place.

Marvel used to capitalize on character moments like these, use them to build up their characters and give them some sense of home to keep them moving forward as heroes. Now they just kill off characters around their current Big Cheese to keep the focus on them. When did this become storytelling? When did this become cinema?

I’m fucking tired of marvel’s shit man, and I want Strange Supreme back…

[luna-rainbow]

Digging this out of my old drafts:

There is a strange poetic parallel (or poetic irony, depending on your point of view) in what Peggy says to Steve as he mourns Bucky, and what Steve says back to her when she pleads with him not to tank the plane.

Peggy: It wasn't your fault. Steve: (If you read the report) You know that's not true. Peggy: Did you believe in your friend? Did you respect him? Then stop blaming yourself. Allow Barnes the dignity of his choice.

Peggy: Please don't do this. We have time. We can work it out. Steve: (...) Peggy, this is my choice.

I mean, firstly, this is textual proof that Bucky's last act was a conscious choice to protect Steve. Secondly, the bitter irony of that line once you take into consideration what follows - of Hydra, enabled by SHIELD, stripping away the dignity of Bucky's choice (as well as his ability to make a choice).

But Steve's pointed wording is...interesting. Even in the kindest of readings, he is using her own words against her. During a time when she's upset and vulnerable, he uses the exact words she gave him when he was upset and vulnerable. "Give me the dignity of my choice," he tells her while dismissing her appeal to consider other options.

And it makes me wonder what exactly did Steve feel when Peggy said that to him. Bucky didn't board the train planning to die, and he didn't protect Steve with the intention to die. Death was a risk, but it was far from the explicit choice that Steve was making here which (as far as he was concerned) equated to certain death.

Had it really been a comfort to Steve to hear that Bucky should be the one to take the brunt of the responsibility as "the dignity of his choice"? When that hadn't been the explicit choice he made? Did those words really serve to alleviate his guilt when both of them knew the only reason Bucky made the choice was for him?

In the end, Steve wasn't allowed the dignity of his choice when he woke up in the 21st century...and he would learn, to his horror, neither was Bucky.

[momentofch-aos]

Today’s M’s Marvel thought of the day.

Peggy Carter writing and reading Daniel Sousa’s eulogy and Jack Thompson stood off to her left. Not her right hand side because on her right lays her right hand man’s caskett.

[doctorhelena]

I’ve created something for every day of Steggy Week 2023 over at @steggyfanevents! This is for Day 1 (Headcanons and meta).

[autumnrory]

i rmr when all the initial meta around endgame was coming out people were talking about steve being depressed and whatnot and it's like well yeah but he's BEEN depressed, like he woke up alone in this century and he kept going, now i can understand it being worse this time after finding a family and getting bucky back and losing them all except of course that's not why endgame steve was on about so like......the people writing meta were trying to connect these things that of course weren't really there on screen because that simply wasn't our steve

but i think it really could've been SO interesting to see this is the thing that finally makes steve stay down like he's lost so much and he just CAN'T keep fighting like i get some people think that's what they were going for but considering the ending......it's really not. and so i'm just thinking about a version after iw, maybe he gets some of the thor treatment except not turning his depression into a dumb fatphobic joke lol and maybe nat and others are trying to get through to him and it just doesn't work and then we get some flashbacks (which you could have done for all the original avengers actually which would be particularly important for bruce and nat and clint who did not have their own trilogies) including his mom telling him "you always stand up" and THAT being the thing to finally get him moving like it would've been such a perfect way to finally show sarah rogers some respect and ACTUALLY show steve really struggling instead of whatever they tried to do with him in that movie

[incorrectssr]

Thinking about how Dottie is not afraid of Vernon Masters because there is nothing he can do to her that she has not done to herself; Whitney Frost, however, not only poses a new and strange threat but also presents the possibility of removing Dottie entirely from existence.

[inthecornerstone]

I love how in season 2, Peggy is just so tired of dealing with Jack that she doesn't even bother being sassy with him anymore. She's got him figured out: He's a good guy who gets insecure and makes bad decisions. There isn't much she can really do about that. That's how we get their scene in 2x08 where he's expecting Peggy to get argumentative and try to defend herself, and she just bypasses all of that and gets to the root of the problem.

"You're willing to believe any phlegm Vernon coughs up on paper because you're worried I would betray your trust. I wouldn't."

I think it's especially interesting given what came before (Peggy using Okinawa against Jack during their argument in 2x03) it's almost an apology on her part. My reading of that scene in Better Angels is that Peggy knows as soon as the words come out of her mouth that she's gone too far, but she's too stubborn to take them back. So she's using this as a chance to assure Jack that she is trustworthy, that she knows this about him but won't stoop to his level. She's also totally calling him out, acknowledging that he's only doing this to her because he's afraid.

Then she ends the conversation by giving him a (fairly backhanded) compliment. She totally refuses to engage with him. She doesn't even read the file!

Jack has no idea what to do with this! But it's such a good scene because Peggy's confident and self-assured reaction really gets him questioning Vernon. Peggy doesn't react at all like Jack would if someone confronted him about Okinawa. So he's forced to realize oh, this file is probably a forgery, maybe I am on the wrong side. It sets up his decision to go against Vernon and back Peggy in the next few episodes soooo well. The character development in this show is truly all I could ever ask for.

(Also, I really wish we got full outtakes of that scene, because what did Chad do that was "just godawful" lol)

[hail-americas-ass]

💄Anti-Peggy Carter Meta

PEGGY CARTER: A CHARACTER OF ELITISM, PRIVILEGE, AND WHITE FEMINISM

How to (Not) Handle Rejection with a Few Bullets or Less: a Comprehensive Guide By Peggy Carter ft @kestrafagnor

 Peggy Carter: A Mosaic Made from Other Characters ft @amarriageoftrueminds

Peggy Carter: A Patron and Paragon of White Feminism​

More to be added

HYDRA SLEEPER AGENT PEGGY CARTER, AND WHY IT FITS

Peggy Carter and the ‘Noble Nazi Collaborator’ archetype

Cynthia Glass and Peggy Carter: Two Sides of the Same Coin

Peggy Carter shouldering her way into Bucky’s character like a badly fitting jacket

Why did Peggy live peacefully into her 90′s if she was a major threat to Hydra? check out the metas here by @kestrafagnor​

Peggy Carter could’ve been an astonishing villain, perhaps even the best​ ft @lordzannis 

More to be added

[tremorsmackenzie]

just saying both Daisy and Peggy are nicknames for people named Margaret, which is peggy carters actual name. i love these parallels, i love that it connects two of the most badass women in marvel, who are both shield agents and i love how it unintentionally plays even more into daniel having a type lmao

"some of my favourite people are people like you" uh huh

[velvet4510]

I truly do not understand why so many people seem to think Steve Rogers is still around in the main MCU timeline as of Phase 4-5. I’m not saying he’s necessarily dead, but he’s definitely not around.

In TFATWS, Sam clearly says “Steve is gone” in a private conversation between him and Bucky about Bucky’s efforts to move forward with his life. If Steve was around, why would Sam say that? And to Bucky of all people? And why wouldn’t they be calling Steve for advice/support during their lowest point with the Flag Smashers?

When a character says one of their best friends is “gone,” in a private chat where they have nothing to hide, I think we can take their word for it.

So either our beloved Steve has passed away or he went back to the timeline he lived in with Peggy after giving Sam the shield. I think the latter is likely, especially if he and Peggy had kids; he’d want to spend his last days with his family there, after giving Sam and Bucky proper closure.