#Odysseys’ unfaithfulness to Penelope is both

[chryza]

Actually I think Jay is a visionary for daring to characterize Odysseus in a way no one has ever attempted: as a guy who doesn’t cheat on his wife.

[ultravioletqueen]

Some time ago my sister introduced me to the world of the video game Hades and its sequel, all the lore and references to Greek mythology fascinate me (I'm a Greek mythology nerd, it's my weakness), I didn't think there would be anything that would bother me about the game Well, except one thing, ODYSSEUS.

Odysseus is by far one of my favorite heroes in Greek mythology, not only for his cunning, gray morals and determination, but also for his immense love for his wife and son, that made him different from the rest of the Greek heroes for me. ,that he was a genuinely loving father and a truly devoted husband even with the situations with circe and calypso, which to clarify, NEITHER OF THE TWO WAS CONSENSUAL, it was extortion and sexual abuse, Odysseus did not want to be with either of them.

For this reason it made me sad to see that Supergiant showed Odysseus as an unfaithful man (when in the Odyssey this man is the personification of simping) who is separated from his wife.

Even if I find the idea interesting that he is lying and Penelope is and working from the shadows like the partner in crime that they are, I have another idea:

After what happened with Circe and Calypso, he thinks that he no longer deserves Penelope, who according to his words "was waiting for years for an unfaithful man" and that is why he separated from her and calls himself "unfaithful" even though both situations were far from his control.

He loves penelope,he loves telemachus,he waited for years to meet them again,but the calypso and circe incident make him feel DIRTY(wich is common in victims of sexual abuse) and not deserving of the love of penelope and penelope in general.

using the lies about being unfaithfull could be a form of trauma block to avoid thinking about the incident,but at the same time it makes him feel WORSE because he thinks he betrayed the WOMAN HE LOVES,HIS SOULMATE AND LITERALLY HIS OTHER HALF.

Im not okay guys...i just want them to be happy again.

(Español)

Hace tiempo mi hermana me introdujo en el mundo del videojuego hades y su secuela,todo el lore y referencias a la mitología griega me fascinan(soy una nerd de mitología griega,es mi debilidad),no pensé que habría algo que me molestaría del juego,bueno,excepto una cosa,ODISEO.

Odiseo es de por lejos uno de mis héroes favoritos de la mitología griega,no solo por su astucia,moral gris y determinacion,sino tambien por el amor inmenso hacia su esposa e hijo,eso hizo que para mi fuera diferente al resto de heroes griegos,que fuera un padre genuinamente amoroso y un esposo realmente devoto aun con las situaciones con circe y calypso que para aclarar NO FUERON CONSENSUADAS NIGUNA DE LAS DOS,fue extorsion y abuso sexual,odiseo no quiso estar con ninguna de las dos.

por esta razon me puso triste el ver que supergiant mostro a odiseo como un hombre infiel (cuando en la odisea este hombre es la personificación del simping) que esta separado de su esposa.

incluso si me parece interesante la idea de que esta mintiendo y penelope trabajando desde las sombras como los partner in crime que son yo tengo otra idea:

que después de lo ocurrido con circe y calypso piensa que ya no se merece a penelope que segun sus palabras "estuvo esperando por años por un hombre infiel" y por eso se separo de ella y se denomina a si mismo como "infiel" aun cuando ambas situaciones estaban lejos de su control.

El ama a penelope,el ama a telemaco,el espejo por años para volver a verlos,pero los incidentes con circe y calypso lo hicieron sentir SUCIO(que es común en víctimas de abuso sexual) y no merecedor del amor de penelope y de penelope en general.

Usar las mentiras sobre ser infiel podría ser una forma de bloqueo traumático para evitar pensar en el incidente, pero al mismo tiempo lo hace sentir PEOR porque cree que traicionó a la MUJER QUE AMA, SU ALMA GAMELA Y LITERALMENTE SU OTRA MITAD.

no estoy bien gente...solo quiero que sean felices otra vez.

[dootznbootz]

I fully blame the Telegony for starting this. It was the first to break up OdyPen and starting the whole "Odysseus is willingly unfaithful" interpretation

EUGAMMON OF CYRENE, WHEN I FUCKING GET YOU!

He needs to be thankful that history is keeping me from yelling at him. 👀 I would leave a book review that would make him CRY. HOMER would leave a book review that would make him cry. My gosh, I wanna see something silly like a meme of some sort with Homer about to fucking WRECK Eugammon, that's so funny.

like it's just such a mess. not only against his character but there are so many points that go against the Odyssey.

1.) Odysseus' line is supposed to only have one son each time. That's Telemachus. You can't just retcon shit to have your OC exist in canon, Eugammon. At least admit it's an AU (Joking...Kind of. 👀)

2.) Tiresias' prophecy. (even fucking wikipedia mentions this fuck up!)

3.) Ultimate wife guy/family man, whose marriage bed is literally a symbol on how he's rooted like a tree on Ithaca, rooted to his marriage, where he belongs, apparently needs to do fuck all and wander about.

4.) You're telling me, Penelope, Queen of Ithaca, was into this marriage circle bullshit? That she would marry he beloved husband's murderer??

Also with the whole "he had a new wife and was with until she died." HOW OLD WAS ODYSSEUS?! HOW OLD WAS PENELOPE?! Odypen were both probably around mid to late 40s when they reunited (at least that's how I see them lol) FOR ANOTHER WOMAN TO GO THROUGH HER WHOLE LIFE WITH HIM???? ARE THEY 150 YEARS OLD????!

And honestly, I think you're right, if it weren't for that stupid poem, I think people would actually study the Odyssey and look through it like, "huh...You know, he seems pretty scared of these goddesses...And really obsessed with this cool as fuck woman. Neat." BUT NO!!! SOME DINGUS HAD TO WRITE BAD FANFIC THAT FOR SOME REASON PEOPLE ALWAYS BRING UP IN YOUTUBE COMMENTS!

You know what? Yeah. Meme time of Homer wrecking Eugammon.

[katerinaaqu]

Have you read Homer though? Because for starters you say "several times" while we have only two female figures in the Odyssey and those are Circe and Calypso.

With Circe Hermes tells Odysseus that he has no choice but to bed her if he wants to save his men who were held hostage and with Calypso he clearly states that he was unwilling:

(I translate both passages in my answer there)

Now of course there is a passage about Calypso which I analyze here:

So no it is not "several times". If anything only Calypso is the person that seems to leave the element of doubt for many and even then the idea that he was willing is clearly debunked by Homer's definitive ουκ εθέλων εθελούση (unwilling [m.] by the side of the willing [f.]).

It is post-homeric scripts including Hesiod that mention the affair with Calypso starts as willing but Homer clearly states that Odysseus was unwilling by the side of Calypso (he even proceeds to write an amazing psychological passage when Odysseus doesn't let women touch him for quite a while for example refuses the help from Nausicaa's maids and wants to bathe himself instead) and Circe was a powerful goddess that was holding his men prisoner at first and then Odysseus claims how much he fears her. Not only does he pray to Gods and begs her to let them go but also passes the night by the ships after they return from the underworld till Circe herself summons him)

It is perfectly fine if you want to follow the idea that Odysseus was unfaithful if you read other sources but interestingly enough Homer mentions how unwilling he was. What is more both of the women that he associated with are powerful immortal goddesses. It is no different than female characters being conquered by Gods in mythology. I am sure you would not blame Leda for "seducing Zeus" right?

And again no matter what even if you assume the affair with Calypso started willingly he was still raped by her. Either it started and he tried to end it and Calypso didn't take no for an answer or he never wanted that and then it is even worse.

Something I'm starting to notice about this fandom; y'all can like Epic's version of Odysseus without trying to paint Calypso as a rapist.

Odysseus in the original tale did cheat on his wife. Several times. And there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. But trying to paint him as blameless and all the other women as rapists for seducing him is not the winning move y'all think it is.

Like Tiktok is becoming the worst when it comes to the topic of Calypso.

[ayearinfaith]

𝗔 𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿 𝗶𝗻 𝗙𝗮𝗶𝘁𝗵, 𝗗𝗮𝘆 𝟯𝟴: 𝗢𝗱𝘆𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘆

The 𝘖𝘥𝘺𝘴𝘴𝘦𝘺 is the second oldest complete literary work in European history, preceded only by its prequel the 𝘐𝘭𝘪𝘢𝘥, both written by the Greek poet Homer in the 8th century BCE. It tells the tale of the hero Odysseus’ 10-year journey back home after the Trojan War events of the 𝘐𝘭𝘪𝘢𝘥. It is a highly influential text in Western cultures and the source of the English common noun “odyssey”.

𝗢𝗱𝘆𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘂𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗜𝘁𝗵𝗮𝗰𝗮

Before the setting of the 𝘖𝘥𝘺𝘴𝘴𝘦𝘺, Odysseus was a hero of the Iliad and likely a widespread figure of oral mythology. The Roman name for him is Ulysses, and the distinction between Greek and Latin terms implies traditions of Odysseus beyond and predating Homer. If the Romans had just inherited the myth directly from the Homeric account, they would have named him more similarly but instead have used a variant that may have come from other Greek dialects or from neighboring non-Italic speaking people like the Etruscans. The actual etymology of Odysseus’ name is unknown, though Homer and other poets made many puns or allusions with it, normally giving it regrettable meanings such as “hated one:, “lamentable one” or, most fittingly, “lost”. In accounts of the Trojan War, one of the most significant events in Greek mythology, Odysseus is portrayed as a very different hero from the other major figures, like Achilles, Ajax, or Agamemnon. While most of the Greek and Trojan heroes are renowned mostly for their physical abilities and have generally passionate and headstrong personalities, Odysseus is cunning and able to keep a cool head. He is both one of the leading Greek tacticians and a diplomat, able to maintain the unity of the Greek forces despite their constant squabbling. His most famous tactic is the Trojan Horse, in which the Greek’s hid a retinue of soldiers inside a giant wooden horse and then appeared to sail away. The Trojan’s, believing the siege at an end, pulled the Horse inside as a trophy. At night, the retinue came out of the horse and opened the city gates for the rest of the army, thus ending the 10-year conflict with a Greek victory. Prior to the war, Odysseus was king of Ithaca. The exact location of Ithaca is unknown, though it is commonly believed to be an island west of the Greek mainland. Odysseus was no demi-God, unlike many other famous Greek heroes, though he was not totally without divine heritage, being 1/8th a god on his mother’s side, by way of Hermes. He is the favorite of Athena, goddess of wisdom, who comes to his aide many times over the course of his life.

𝟮𝟬 𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿𝘀 𝗔𝗯𝗿𝗼𝗮𝗱

Though not a part of the Homeric account, later tales of Odysseus display him as unwilling to go to war with Troy and feigning madness as an attempt to escape his oath to aid his fellow Greeks. He is unsuccessful in this gambit and must join his fellow kings and heroes on the journey to Troy, in what is modern day Turkey, for a war that would last ten years. At long last his tactics provided a Greek victory and the heroes could begin the journey back across the Aegean Sea. Homer’s 𝘖𝘥𝘺𝘴𝘴𝘦𝘺 does not actually begin with Odysseus’ journey, but rather with his son, Telemachus (literally "distant war"), now 20 years old, ten years after the end of the war. Though Odysseus is assumed dead, he and his mother Penelope have not lost faith and are fending off suitors wishing to claim Odysseus’ estates and kingdom. Athena comes to Telemachus and convinces him to voyage out himself to seek his father. Telemachus does so, taking him on his own journey across Greece meeting much of the surviving cast of the Iliad. Odysseus, meanwhile, makes his appearance washed ashore in the kingdom of Phaeacia, not far from Ithaca itself. Here he is found, nude and barely alive, by the princess Nausicaa who take pity on him and takes him in. Once restored, he recounts the events leading up to this point and the 𝘖𝘥𝘺𝘴𝘴𝘦𝘺 truly begins. One could summarize the journey as a tale of warning to those who do not properly venerate the gods. First Odysseus is separated from most of his fleet by a storm sent by Zeus as punishment for the deceitful nature by which he ended the war. Next, he lands at a lush island which turns out to be home to one of the terrifying one-eyed man-eating giants, the Cyclopes. Odysseus uses his cunning to escape the cave of the Cyclops (whose name is Polyphemus) first by telling the monster that his name is “nobody” and then blinding it. After his men escape, hiding below Polyphemus’ flock of sheep, Polyphemus calls for help from his brothers, but they do not credit his claims that “nobody has blinded me”. Odysseus’ misadventures might have ended here, except as he leaves, he taunts Polyphemus and reveals his true name. Polyphemus then asks his father, none other than the god of the sea Poseidon. Poseidon curses Odysseus and though the hero does not realize it, he cannot return home until the sea god is appeased. Odysseus then has his boat blown of course by a magic bag of winds, is attacked by more giant man-eaters (though not Cyclopes), and winds up on the isle of the demi-God sorceress Circe, who turns all his men into pigs. Here Odysseus finally receives some aid from his great-grandfather and messenger of the gods, Hermes. Protected from her magic by Hermes gift, Odysseus forces her to restore his men. Circe still manages to seduce Odysseus and convinces him to stay with her for one year. After this, she aids him in summoning the spirit of a dead prophet, Tiresias, who advises Odysseus on how to placate Poseidon. It seems Poseidon’s wrath is almost at an end, so long as Odysseus and his men can survive a few more trials which Circe and Tiresias advise him on. Thus, he is able to survive the hypnotic call of the Sirens (by having his men plug their ears and tie him to the mast) and successfully navigates the whirpool, Charybdis, albeit suffering some loses to the nearby sea monster, Scylla. Finally, the last trial is upon them. All Odysseus and his crew must do is avoid eating the sacred cows on the island of Thrinacia. Odysseus’ men, who so far have been as much a plague to him as any god, eat the cattle, enraging the sun god Helios who has Zeus strike their boat with lightning and send them all careening baack into Charybdis. Odysseus, protected by fate, washes ashore on the island of Ogygia where he is found by the nymph Calypso. Calypso wishes to make Odysseus her husband and keeps him trapped with her for seven years. Finally, with all the gods having forgotten their ire, Athena is able to free him. Poseidon does have one last laugh, and shipwrecks Odysseus one last time leading to his washing ashore in Phaeacia.

𝗛𝗼𝗺𝗲 𝗮𝘁 𝗟𝗮𝘀𝘁

Odysseus is given a boat by the Phaeacians and finally returns home, just as Telemachus returns as well, having been unable to find his father. Through some plotting, disguises, and divine intervention by Athena, Telemachus and Odysseus reunite and hatch a plan to oust the suitors. Penelope announce a final trial for any man wishing to marry her: they must string Odysseus’ famed bow and shoot an arrow through 12 axe heads. None can do it but a disguised Odysseus. It is uncertain if the stringing of the bow was impossible for others due to a lack of strength or because only Odysseus knew how to properly string a recurve bow. Regardless, the deed is done and Odysseus reveals himself. Along with Telemachus, he slays the suitors and some unfaithful servants. The tale ends happily, with Ithaca at peace and Odysseus on his throne, reunited with his family.

Image Credit: Odysseus and Polyphemus, Arnold Böcklin, 1896

[ciceroisthefamilycat]

Lauriver, as inspired by classic literature

The Odyssey is a pivotal inspiration for "Arrow," but especially as regards Oliver and Laurel's relationship. Oliver is clearly Odysseus, the master strategist and a beleaguered traveler stuck on an island and struggling to return home. Laurel is a less direct representation of Penelope, who ignores her many suitors and waits for Odysseus' return as long as she can, but in the final months before his return is facing increased pressure to accept a suitor. Notably, the test Penelope sets for her suitors is that they be able to use her husband's bow with success and she does not believe her husband has truly returned until he shares the private information that he made their bed from an olive tree still rooted to the ground. Odysseus is unfaithful while away, but his love for Penelope remains paramount. This parallel is most directly referenced within the show's text during 1x14 "The Odyssey," in which, just before Oliver must recite a line from the Odyssey, he tries to call Laurel.

of note to Oliver/E2Laurel is that when passing the land of the Sirens with his men, only Odysseus left his ears unplugged because he wanted to hear their song (though he had them tie him to the mast lest he drown himself)

 The Great Gatsby is far less influential, but is mentioned here because Laurel was Oliver's green light- the sign of hope that he held on to and which drove him to keep on living (in his own words) because as much as he wanted to die, he wanted even more to return to her and make things right. Of less significance are Jay Gatsby's time as a yachtsman, that his relationship with Daisy was interrupted by his service in the army (which here would be the years on the island), the false name of Jay Gatsby, and the opulence and wealth in which Jay lived.

 Hamlet is first mentioned in "Arrow" by Felicity in her first appearance- 1x03 "Lone Gunmen"- but it's somewhat of a misdirect. Felicity wants to be sure Oliver isn't after Walter for being Moira's second husband. He isn't. But Oliver does eventually realize the new king, as it were, of Starling was behind his father's death. That's right- Malcolm, another of Moira's former lovers which we learn in season 2. This sets Oliver as Hamlet, Malcolm as Claudius, Moira as Gertrude, Robert as the Ghost, and Laurel as... Ophelia. Ophelia's father Polonius (the king's chief counselor) warns her to stay away from the Prince (as does Ophelia's brother Laertes who is away until the climax of the play).

So Oliver returns home, fixated on the quest his dead father gave to him- as Slade reminds us in the S5 finale, it always comes back to Oliver's dad. Meanwhile Quentin warns Laurel to stay away from both the Hood and Oliver. In order to achieve justice for Robert (as the Hood), Oliver puts on an act in 1x02 Honor Thy Father- preceding that first actual reference- that he is still the same self-centered playboy he was when he left. Then, in the S1 finale, Tommy sacrifices himself for Laurel. After initially blaming the Hood, Laurel succumbs to alcoholism and her own form of madness, much as Ophelia suffered after Hamlet killed her father and her brother challenged him to a duel. Ophelia ultimately commits suicide by drowning, and as we know Laurel's apology to Sara in 2x14 Time of Death, Laurel felt as though she's been "slowly drowning." Also in 2x14 is the infamous hallway confrontation between Oliver and Laurel- Oliver tells her she's self centered and she should go get drunk. In the play, after Ophelia is pressured to reject Hamlet (as Laurel rejected a returning Oliver in 2x01), Hamlet infamously accused Ophelia of immodesty and told her to "get thee to a nunnery."

*Poison, the method by which Claudius killed Hamlet's father, is particularly prominent in 1x03 (the curare in present day and flashbacks, Max Fuller's club), and in 2x13 Heir to the Demon, while Laurel is recovering from a snake venom used on her by the League and Sara downs the stuff to get out of going back to the League. This may be incidental though, as large chunks of "Arrow" focus on drug/alcohol use (i.e. Vertigo, Mirakuru).

Of some lesser relevance, that same confrontation involves Oliver disavowing Laurel for helping to prosecute his mother the very episode after Oliver learned that Thea's father is Malcolm and Oliver became estranged from her. In 2x14 Laurel feels betrayed herself a little to find out that her mother has moved on romantically from her father. Not to get too Oedipal, but a large amount of the literature analyzing Hamlet is from an Oedipal lens. At a time when Oliver feels massively betrayed by and has lost faith in his mother and just seen Laurel lose faith in hers, he's begun to lose all faith in Laurel, and instead jumped into bed with her sister (who in 2x14, despite being very kind to Felicity and Sin is a bit of a guy's girl vis a vis her camaraderie with Dig and Oliver and assumes a motherly role to Sin cast onto her by Sin's father in the flashbacks). This entire arc is about Laurel falling off Oliver's pedestal and into madness, and fits into the hysterical and distraught trope popularized by Ophelia herself (to many audience members' chagrin). One final point to Laurel as Ophelia is that many have pointed out Ophelia is left by all the important (male) figures in her life- her father, brother, and lover- and we know Laurel wonders aloud to Oliver "What's so wrong with me that everybody leaves?"

[alowart-blog]

A Low Art

Margaret Atwood

a Canadian poet, novelist, literary critic, essayist, inventor, and environmental activist.

Profile

Margaret Atwood was born on November 18, 1939 in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada to a nutritionist mother and entomologist father who fostered a love of nature. Also growing up in Quebec and showing a passion for writing at an early age, Atwood eventually pursued her undergraduate studies at Victoria College at the University of Toronto, graduating in 1961. She then earned her master’s at Radcliffe the following year. Over the course of her career, Atwood went on to teach at a variety of colleges and universities in both Canada and the United States.

Atwood’s first published work was the pamphlet of poetry Double Persephone(1961), published via Hawkshead Press. More poetry followed during the decade as seen with the books Talismans for Children (1965) and The Animals in That Country(1968). She then published her first novel, The Edible Woman, in 1969, a metaphoric, witty work about the social status of a woman about to wed.

The first chapter of Penelopiad,  A Low Art, begins with the statement “now that I am dead, I know everything”. The narrator clearly wants the readers to think of the theme as the underworld, and that is the setting of the excerpt. The narrator then stated that her wish didn’t come true, at least not all of them. The narrator also stated that she knew something that she wished she hadn’t, “you think you’d like to read minds? Think again” she added.

She then begins to describe the afterlife, stating that everyone arrives to the underworld in a sack full of words that they’ve heard and words that have been said about others to the person. Her sack is full of words about her husband, and that some people say that her husband made a fool of her and got away with everything. She is really loyal to her husband. She always thought that her husband is plausible. She seems to admit in the excerpt that even she believed him often, thinking that he would not lie to her since she was such a loyal wife. She is a loyal wife to her husband that is why she described herself as a “stick used to beat other women with”, since all the storytellers, singers, and yarn-spinners considered her the model of a faithful wife. “Don’t follow my example”, she wanted to tell this to other women.

She always knew that her husband was tricky, but she still pretended not to see that side of him, for the reason that she wanted happy endings. She then realizes that lots of people were mocking her in secret. She defined this mock as scandalous gossip that spreads faster than truth, but if she denies it or if she defends herself she would sound guilty.

Unlocking of Words

Factoids,

an assumption or speculation that is reported and repeated so often that it becomes accepted as fact.

Example: One factoid that encourages market timing is that return predictability patterns are stronger during recessions, perhaps due to the scarcity of risk-taking capital.

a woman who seduces someone, especially one who entices a man into sexual activity.

Example: Her wife was considered as seductress.

Compulsion,

An irresistible urge to behave in a certain way, especially against one's conscious wishes

Example: They were at first allowed religious freedom, but became Christians under compulsion in 1300.

Unscrupulousness,

Refer to lack of moral standards or conscience to guide one's conduct.

Example: At the same time a new enemy arose in the Illyrian pirate fleets, which outdid them in unscrupulousness and violence.

 Scandalous

causing general public outrage by a perceived offense against morality or law.

Example: The debut of the scandalous live performance shocked the audience. 

 Preposterous

contrary to reason or common sense; utterly absurd or ridiculous.

Example: His idea of selling dead bugs for big money is totally preposterous!

 Jeering

make rude and mocking remarks, typically in a loud voice.

Example: Angry voices wove in and out of the crowd's jeering and the ringing of her ears.

 Aristocrat

belonging or typical of the aristocracy.

Example: I was born in Kentucky, you know, where all the best and most aristocratic horses come from.

 Eminent

famous and respected within a particular sphere or profession.

Example: It has an old town hall, a theatre and several statues of eminent men.

 Considerate

careful not to cause inconvenience or hurt to others.

Example: My considerate neighbor brought me a pot of soup when I became ill.

Guide Questions

•       Why does Penelope consider story telling “a low art”?

In telling a story, if the majority believed you, therefore your statement is true while, if minority is on your side, you are telling lies.Penelope considered story telling as a low art, because  "A Low Art" proved that a story can either be true or not based on how the majority will acknowledge it. She considered it as a low art, since she proved that stories can be change depending on the narrator’s perspective. For example, the story came from Greek mythology, The odyssey, the summary of the story is that he was betrayed by Penelope, and in her perspective, she was the one being betrayed and fooled.

•       How does Penelope’s portrayal differ from the traditional portrayal of Odysseus? What you think of Odysseus?

Penelope's portrayal differs from the traditional portrayal of Odysseus in a way that Penelope, in her story, is a faithful and loyal wife to Odysseus. The Odysseus that she described is the exact opposite of the Odysseus in the traditional story. The Odysseus that she have is tricky and unfaithful.

•       Based on Penelope's perspective, how is she different from how the epic portrays her? What do you think of Penelope's character in the preceding story?

She differs from the Penelope in the epic in terms of the love and truthfulness. The Penelope in the epic was true and loyal to Odysseus, because she loved him and waited for him, while in her perspective, she seems to be loyal to her Odysseus because of fear and to avoid being seen as guilty of being stupid. In he own perspective. she didn't anymore love Odysseus.

> what does she have to say about the “official version”of what happened? why did she poing this out?

The official version of the story that she compared to her life is the exact opposite of it. She pointed this out to emphasize the irony of the title of her story and what really happened to her.

>hy does she call herself “a stick used to beat other women with”?do you agree with her?

For us she called herself as a stick used to beat other women, because she is a symbol of a faithful and a loyal wife. Other people sees her as a faitful wife to her unfaithful husband. Men wants their women to be like her, to stay faithful despite their untrue acts.

> why does penelope say that she “sounds like an owl”when she tries to warn other women?

I think that she describes her warn like the sound of an owl, because they always hear the hoot of the owl every night and it seems like her warning is always repeated that it lost its value.

> how much of ancient history do you think is based on fact ,and how much on gossip or exaggeration.?

I think that our ancient history is based on facts mixed with exaggeration, but definitely not a gossip. First of all you cannot say that the history is only a gossip since you were not there when it happened to prove your stand that it is a gossip. We trust our history for it is where we came from, hence i also believe that is also exaggerated.

>do you think a story is colored by the biases of the story teller?

Yes. A story can relay another message or concept to the readers based on the narrator's perspective. The biases of the story teller can be seen in his/her story since it is told in his/her own perspective. The support of this answer is the excerpt itself, the excerpt is the story of Odysseus told in another perspective. That is why the message of the story is not the same.

> do you think history is colored by the biases of the historian?

Yes. This answer supports our stand about the exaggeration of the stories in our history. I think that the historian exaggerates a little bit on their story about their history.

> does this story chang the way you look at literature and history?why or why not?

No it didn't. We always knew that literature and history has a little bit of exaggeration, but we are believe for history that it is based on facts and not gossips or opinions.

Reflection:

Based on what I learned, this literary piece is focuses in the era of women in 19th century that they living in so unfair that time. All women treat like a useless person. So the story wants to say that we need to be fair**. **It say that women and men should be fair to each other in all matter. And I'm glad because now a days women a men is almost fair. For example women can be president in our time, women can work like a men unlike before women is only for house to clean, to take care the kids. This is one of what I learned.

 A Low Art emphasizes a woman’s suffering in the biased era that she is in. The literary piece focuses on the era of women in 19th century that is biased and unjust. There is no equality among st women and usually they get beaten up or sexually abused. The story wants to point out equality and justice to women. The story also wants us to speak out if we experienced injustice. "A Low Art" also teaches a woman to take a stand for something that they know is right. I have to tell my own version of story because silence can sometimes worsen the situation.

[hirac-delesbian]

A full book sounds amazing! Wow!

And yeah it might not be worth it for you haha, toward the end I was basically reading it as just a different story where Penelope and Odysseus were both the villains and the ending of the slaves haunting them was a happy one. As opposed to the odyssey where it is so much easier to care about those two even if they might have done bad things. I’m fully capable of putting modern morals aside while reading the odyssey, but it was still interesting to see things like slavery or child brides be played completely straight and being forced to grapple with that. I also in my mind decided to interpret Penelope’s “don’t trust men” speech as willfully deflecting in order to not have to take any blame for the girls deaths, which added complexity to her character. I also chose to interpret the stories characters told about Odysseus being unfaithful etc as intentionally false rumors. That probably was not the authors intention tho lol, so understandable if you don’t want to cope like I did haha!

Here are screenshots of parts I particularly liked just on a writing or character level.

(this features god awful helen slander but I still think its a cute moment between flawed characters)

and the ending that made it worth it for me

sorry theres so much lol you dont have to look at it all 😭I tried to narrow it down. This is the best pitch I can make for the Penelopiad although rest assured I complain about it so much to my friends haha, it's a love hate relationship for me. I feel similarly about Atwood's other works tbh.

May I ask what's wrong with changing modern adaptations of ancient stories to fit the morality of today? The way I see it, it's hard to connect with the characters portrayed when every second one is a rapist of some kind.

Stories adhering as much as they can will never be as popular or appreciated as ones modified to be engaging to the audience they have now.

Stories are meant to entertain, and the audience they were originally made for is dead. What the audience finds entertaining changes in decades. Does it not make sense to adapt them to that?

You answered your question yourself. By placing modern day morality and fitting it to ancient stories we just twist the original stories and their meaning and we create a false idea of the past to make it sound as if that place was consisted of people who were terrible they had no Morals at all and nowadays we are the great moral people that know what's up.

You said it yourself: "when every second one was a rapist of some kind". That is just false assumption on both the characters and the past. In fact rape was severely punished. Even in the Epic Cycle when Locrian Ajax raped Cassandra the soldiers were trying to stone him to death and he had to take refuge to a sanctuary. Him being a noble didn't matter before such an immoral act. Rape was not casual as "modern morality readings" think. There is a big risk of misunderstanding when we project our morality in ancient stories which were not always THAT far away from us at some things.

At another case I have heard people speak of "gay ancient greece" when the concept of "gay" didn't even exist and not only that homosexiality had a much more complicated meaning in antiquity than we think now and no it was not a bunch of people kissing their partners in public as many people do in 21st century. Again there is a danger to misunderstand stuff and they do get misunderstood

Modern day morality changes by experience of mine never realize the harm they do to the narrative and character development (for example Odysseus giving out his name to Polyphemus has nothing to do with modern narrative saying "oh he was stupid" there is an entire analysis behind it which just harms the character and his development by bluntly say that without taking the background in consideration)

Changing stuff to ellegedly "fit modern narrative" is inheritently dangerous because it contains personal biases on what morality is in the first place and it is harmful often because these stories are far from just entertainment; they are witness of the past and a past culture and by changing them according to the bias of one person on modern morality consequently leads to the misinterpretation of the past. And in the end of the day ancient stories are still entertaining today. Look at the festivals in Greece where we play ancient theater as it was written. We have only changed the concept of the full face mask. So allow me to disagree and say the ancient stories still entertain today and the admirers of them are not dead at all.

I am not saying it is wrong in every shape or form in fact as I said million times already it is even expected to add some elements from each culture or era to appease the public. The problem begins when that story is exclusively looked through that keyhole and then we have the bias of one person on the text shaping the past and have a story that simply doesn't work and many people even those with no knowledge in the past realize there is something wrong with the picture. See how many people who love the Iliad and the Odyssey criticized Miller for adding too much of her modern morality in her books. Even people who are not experts realized the story was damaged despite her beautiful weiting etc