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ilikelookingatthings · 2 days ago

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Honestly adrien has most directly faced consequences.

In copycat they were clear that him acting on his jealousy caused a akuma even by implying her abd LB were a thing. He faced getting attacked by the cops and not only did he get chained up....the fact ge lied was used to defeat the akuma because ladybug didn't actually likevhim back where he found out she wasn't even taking his flirting seriously all that time. She didn't find out what he did but he was punished abd made clear to be in the wrong by the narrative and had a reminder she didn't actually like him. Mari THINKS the akuma was caused by her skipping the statue reveal to steal and delete a message to adrien so she learned little but even then jt was adrien dealing with the consequence and she gets to go to the movies with adrien and everyone at the end of the episode where sge returned the phone secretly becayse sge didn't know how to explain how she got it despite thinking she could use it as a icebreaker.

Chat was called out swiftly abd directly when ge tried to play up they moght be a thing to the interviewer even after seeing that kiss he gad no idea happened. Everytime he ket himself be happy seeing evidence of kisses ladybug would do her best to remind him it meant nothing.

When he got a bit pushy with asking then projected his dad issues in gkacatiour ladybug didn't show up and he was rejected. Where a positive was when he apologized cuz she wasn't inbthe wrong for not showing up when she gave him at best a maybe and ge accepted her honesty where she blushed and kept the rose. He was punished/not rewarded for bring pushy and only got a slight reward when he acknowledged she wasn't wrong for not showing and accepting her answer.

In frozen he was punished and deliberately called out when he trued to make her jealous and though she might change her mind where he bkth accepted she won't change her mind but he also can't force it or replace her with someone. Which also meant in miracle queen that he WAS being sincere toward kagami and wasn't just using her as a changed target even if they got pushed together too soon by mari.

Even when he offered flowers out of friendship and they were rejected he rolled with it and offered himsekf flowers and the show pointed out she did so because he used to offer flowers and she assumed he was trying to find a work around her rule to give her romantic flowers.

He was pretty thoroughly punished in how he handkdd the situation with kagami as she broke up with him and didn't even want to be friends for a while unlike how luka was understanding the entire time and reassured mari even thoigh mari was breaking up with him.

The show made it clear he was in the wrong when he kissed marinette as chat noir where he said why even though we know mari is LB and adrien took that route cuz she was avoiding civilian adrien.

When he got giddy people saw him and his crush as a good couple she immediately rips into him like in oblivio or the billboards despite being giddy when she gets shipped with adrien by her friends or others.

When he gave into believing maybe ladybug might like him back in sentibug itvtutned out sentibug wasn't real. Sentibug died and ladybug said ge could tell the real from a fake bevause the real one woukdnt want to kiss him.

When dude joked about being a thing in glactiour 2.0 he was thrown in the trash even thoigh lady ug has used pretending to be a couple to defeat that akuma before despite her knowing his feelings are real. Sude was almost akumatized. Mari threw a potterywheel and he had to help his cridh poor active confessing for someone else while she kind of disregarded him taking her anger and hurt seriously with trying to move on.

The show pointed out when his flirting gets in the way by making it clear when it's a issue like in oblivio ir when he gets hit like in dark cupid.

Because unlike nari adrien tends to be straitforward with his romantic feelings it either gets called out straitfirwardly or he faces a consequence that the audience can see is directly linked to his behaviour and usually he KNOWS how and why the results are linked to his behaviour.

And while people claim he doesn't learn no means no. That is false...his motive behind his flirting and feelings change which MATTERS. He knows ladybug doesn't realize his feelings are sincere up to the first glacatiour due to copycat and the interview and his flirting was him trying to get across his feelings and banter.

He accepted her rejection and his acting out in the furst glacatiour wasn't about him feeling entitled to her being there. He had used the rooftop outing as a way to rebel against his dad who canceled his icecream friend outing, didn't show up for a meal and expected adrien to play piano despite how it woukd obviously upset adrien...so adrien projected on ladybug his issues with his dad when she showed up to the akuma because he wanted to defend his right to feel sonething in convient...especially since the reason he had rushed earlier in asking is they have a short time frame together. He acknowledged she wasn't wrong to not show up once he felt like she listened and acknowledge his right to feel negatively(and considering we know she found out his feelings are real and still came up with a fake dating plan despite him already showing attitude kind of validates it a bit...it was a smart but also insensative plan. And considering she at least gave a maybe and considering his plans with his friends were her plans which implied he had planned tge LB meet up for after and SHE let herself act out of fristeration and took it personally when adrien didn't show up even though she NEVER INVITED HIM PERSONALLY and she projected they would share a icecream even thoigh she was given a heads up adrien couldn't come due to his dad and lashed out at Andre despite her friends and Andre trying to comfort her...both had that issue of having expectations that weren't fair.

In frozen he tried to change targets but then tried to get ladybug jealous where he was called out and he realized he both couldn't expect ladybugs feelings to change just as he can't just expect his own feelings to change. Sure he didn't give up his feelings but he did acknowledge once again that he can't expect hers to change just because he likes her...and how love doesn't depend on the other liking you back.

That also means when he tries again with kagami later it WASN'T kagami being a rebound or a changed target. A love akuma sensed his interest in kagami. He ignored a ladybug fist bump to check on kagami after that situation with lila. He hung out with her on his own quite a few times. A whole joke was riding on the fact chat sincerely was interested in kagami but that mari was assuming he was trying to make her jealous again with the irony that's not the case this time because mari was the one who pushed them together prematurely.

He backed out of the kiss later which is true but he was rushed by mari earlier and now has to be there fir ladybug even more after fu.

Unlike mari he actually got closure on his crush and knew where he stood and he didn't lie to himself that his feelings were gone. But he still knew ge could choose how he uses that love and what type he could grow. A whole joke in the newyork special was ladybug thought chat noir was trying to ignore hiw she didn't want romantic flowers by pretending it was platonic to trick her...when in fact he WAS sincerely offering her the yellow flower for friendship. And he contrasted mari who spent her time trying to lie to herself and say she was over adrien despute her behaviour not matching at all.

And while everyone tends to say adrien had no interesting in kagami due to his crud behaviour as a boyfruend...if you take off the romantic feelings for ladybug assumption the issue was adrien found comfort in being chat and being around kadybug because he knew she accepted him acting out as chat even if she didn't like him back....someone who had no expectations for him and who already knew him vs his struggle to open up to kagami who DOES have expectations. How kagami wasn't wrong that adrien was struggling to open up but she also missed that him being goofy WAS him trying to open up. That his chat personality was like her painting....something they both work on that others might be blind to the importance of...like how her mom missed the importance of painting to kagami. And kagami caught him in a lie using the charm when he was saving Paris and broke up with him. Making it clear he hurt her and that she didn't want to be his friend anymore unlike mari who had a much more patient and understanding luka who apologized after he was akumatized and who mari broke up with and who assured mari that he was still her friend and if she ever wants to give it a try again he will be open.

Mati let herself cry about luka and thoight she had to give up normal things to be guardian until she started using her old crush on adrien to feel normal again since it was connected to before she lost fu, it was familar and she could crush and maje plans while feeling safe in ne er actually doing anything about it.

Instead of crying about kagami when he can't do anything about his secerts adrien used HIS crush on ladybug as a distraction. Something familar he could fall back on to be a rock for ladybug who was dealing with alot of change and give him something he can use to express himself because he already knows ladybug doesn't like him back amd she knows his feelings.....so he ALSO thinks that dynamic won't change.

Unlike before the loss of master fu adrien was not flirting with the udea she would change her mind anymore. Her liking him vack WASNT the point. He liked expressing himself and he used it as something familar to put his energy into to distract himself from hks other problems like the break up with kagami, his controlling emotionally distant dad, nathalue getting sick. heck even using it to pretend things were fine even though he was concerned about how no matter how hard he tried he wasn't able to make it to akuma battles on time or be very useful.

Mari didn't know chat had actually tried sincerely dating someone and delt with a break up because she still assumed he was trying to make her jealous before and becayse chat actually dkesnt ket his issues get exposed infront of ladybug unlike her shouting in a theater. And since she hasn't had closure and HER crush was still about wanting yo be liked and feeling wanted and feeling normal....she completely missed that any of chat's flirting wasn't actually about thinking she would change her mind.

Kuro neko anf glacatiour 2 rides on that misunderstanding as she hadn't noticed that chat's flirting and banter wasn't about her liking him back.

His flirting in glacatiour 2.0 was banter cuz one, it's nice for others to think you look good with your crush, two a way to distract the akuma because SHE had used the tactic before and three....a way for him to express his feelings because he can't vent as his civilian self. He wasn't actually expecting her to kiss him or change her mind and she has treated thaf stuff as banter before. It helped show that even though HE knew he wasn't expecting her feelings to change that it can still put pressure on people and make them uncomfortable when they have turned you down before. And he was in the wrong cuz he knows her and her temper well and she had expressed back in the interview which used that kiss from dark cupid and her negative reaction after oblivio....hence why she threw him in the trash...and jt shows how she wants to be a civilian more cuz she is bust while he is mire playful with akumas since that's HIS escape. Mari was right to call him out and rip into him and shows what happens when your too pushy with your feelings when someone has turned you down.

He was distressed because he hadn't meant to make her feel disrespected cuz he thought his flirting wouldn't matter since it's been banter before but he showed he WAS willing to try stopping and be full platonic if he made her uncomfortable...and of course a struggle cuz that's one of the few things he had to vent for himself.

Which contrasts mari who still hsd her secert crush and at times gives adrien the opposite emotions due to her over compensating and didn't understand hoe her feelings could hurt adrien or her holding back said feelings and who also had no issue using chat to practice confessing to 'buttercup despite knowing his crush for her. She also showed while ADRIEN was distressed and trying to get over ladybug and taking her hurt and how she felt disrespected seriously....her issue wasn't ACTUALLY with chat loving her. Her issue was with the CITY disregarding what she said and flaunting it around and chat was measly the straw thar broke the camels back. She didn't like him encouraging it a d him missing her temper growing. If she actually felt disrespected and uncomfortable completely she wouldn't gave invited chat to help her confess to another boy. She basically forgot her blow up at chat noir and brushed his distress on her behalf aside and she genuinely gkt cheered up and opened up to chat as marinette and admitted her fear of vulnerability and how she uses her crush on buttercup cuz she feels safe in not REALLY acting on it. And she as ladybug later on gave chat leeway fkr his crush again.

And in kuro neko his flirt was his way to pretend their partnership was fine by using something familar to cover his nerves. which she used to dismiss his sincere offer to help by collecting the miraculouses that she knows he knows which they both know is sincere and valid. She was on a time crunch and didn't want to examine why she had refused when he asked why/fir a better reason so she tried to use his old behavior to act like he was being entitled and ridiculous to cut the conversation short. She uses the romance as a reason because due to being busy with being guardian, her own issues, how chat had deliberately acted fine to not worry her all that time she had not NOTICED that he was flirting less and that his motive behind jt had changed because HER motive with adrien hadn't changed much and it's easier to notice a behaviour than the absence of a behaviour.

And considering adrien doesn't actually tell plagg everything he feels unlike how mari opens everything to tikki and how plagg will also look for shortcuts and how adrien uses romance as a distraction and a simple motive....adrien uses it a bit to avoid the bigger issues he has with the situation just so he could come back abd be useful as cat walker.

But adrien did accept bit by bit that ladybug didn't like him back, that even if he liked her without expectation she would like him back that jt could still bother her and them his feelings were used to dismiss him having a actual good point in treatment even if he used it as a distraction from his problems or more complicated feelings.

Heck even in the in-between times if tgat when he thought she COULD develope feelings for him back in oblivio...she had scolded him but he showed he understood sge still didn't like him...but she did fall for him under other circumstances so his hope wasn't out of nowhere and ge dudnt expect her feelings to just change conviently either.

And adrien after all that time DID actually move on to civilian marinette and he found out she liked him through Andre the icecream man and her FINALLY saying she likes him and now having context that the confession she practiced was for ADRIEN. So of course he wasn't going to give up on marinette then.

I get why you might nkt realize the changes since behaviour can seem similar over time and change is subtle and since we are seeing from mari's point of view and she doesn't notice it.....but adrien DOES actual change and grows and shifts his behaviour and knows no means no.

Would it have been more simple if he just went cold turkey from the get go at the first rejection....yeah...but feelings are complicated and her first rejection was about liking someone else and the complications of dating a hero...not about not liking him at all. We know she had admitted to hersekf if adrien wasn't around sge might consider chat noir. It made fun banter they were used to by then....and feelings don't easily go away and they are suppoused to have opposite approaches to things. Mari fears the friend zone and thinks in ultimatumzms while adrien thinks feelings can change and develope over time abd a point is ge DID actually try and move on while mari doesn't KNOW this.

Much like how WE and MARINETTE know she was PISSED about chat nkir not making it to battle at all that fjrst time in emphereal. How she was going to rip into him and demand he show up more. How su han said how important chat noir is and how he is irreplaceable and more efficient then all the other side heros. We know chat had inspired her from the begining in origins and she has appreciated him through all the change(mentioned with scarabella and rockatear). We know su han said chat was important. And how she defended chat noir to su han when su han implied chat should be known because what if he is untrustworthy so she refused to get chat's identity in the end....but that she FORGOT to tell this to chat noir.

So Chat/Adrien doesn't know how valued he is because the first time he couldn't cone at all she forgot to tell him that mattered. How we actually was grateful to all the sude heros when he couldn't make it. How he struggled to get to akuma attacks in time to fight or got barely used but he had no context to why he suddenly wasn't making itand that it wasn't about him not being good at his job and it was ladybug bringing mire people in sin e alya and her reveal of her identity. How him hiding his worries and questions because plagg told him to lower his expectations and because he knew ladybug was stressed....but he doesn't realize he js actually important because she has OPTIONS now and how she would say they would be fine even without chat. A d how she doesn't know to speak to him about things because he isn't telling her how much things are bothering him. But when he did keave he came back cuz he was reminded she was struggling and what's important is he can help.

And he has semi learned to doubt himself more over time which is why he ended up not going into the final battle which then caused his dad to die. Sure we know the details and the truth but a bigger issue than adrirn finding out his dad was hawkmoth is hawkmoth/gabriel just xant find out he is adrien.

But iver all chat noir DOES change and learn lessons.

Mari's issue is mari learns lessons but they are NEXT to the actual problem. She gets the right answer with the wrong equation so she jeeps making very similar mistakes that come from the same core problem.

The show built up a importance in her confessing to adrien on her own and overcoming that insecurity as well as learning to see how her feelings can affect others for good or bad defending on her choosing to act or not but they sidestepped that growth by having him confess first and her never realizing properly that the way she handled her crush could hurt him....a majour thing is mari is often inaccurate at putting herself in others shoes because her bias toward what she already plans on doing affects her view. And the build up about her crush on adrien is if she confessed first it would show growth in her going for it even if she didn't know the outcome...that she gad faith it would be okay and that she was putting that he deserves to know someone cares over her fear of vulnerability. But sge both never really figured out the main issue with hie she treated adrien romantically....like a celebrity crush where she wasn't REALLY seeing him.

Even with the 'crush on chat' they tried to use it was more about avoiding kther hssues and she 'didn't REALLY consuder chat noir's feelings or her behaviour or treatment from his perspective. She is now talking the talk but she hasn't really kearney the core problems.

Which is why she tends to regress a bit in how she handles stuff...probably doesn't help the character they were using yo broaden mari's view on stuff(chloe) was made worse so mari thinks she was unredeemable and they took her easy way of growth with adrien confessing first.

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And to be fair to nino and alya they are not the main characters. They get very little screen time as is and alya has apologized when she has messed up.

And specifically in Nino's defense not only dies he have kess screen time the reason he outed the identities was because ladybug made alha tell him that alya wasn't going to be used as a hero at all anymore. He was only a hero due to alya and considering ladybug had given them the go ahead to know eachother and kept them on as heros despite hawkmoth knowing them.....him telling adrien wasn't a big deal since nino thought they wouldnt be heros anymore and nino had sense guilt from alya...just misinterpreted it. Guilt he only sensed because alya dudnt feel understood or listened to by marinette and was made to directly lie to nino...

He got akumatized over the situation abd specifically Saud where he was wrong. And if he hadn't been told by alya then Alta woukd have been hurt in that big battle. Snd alya faced consequences from having told nino and not telling mari she did so.

Heck alya has admitted to mistakes and it's mari who gives her more responsability. But alya generally has changed to. Learned about secerts abd trust and how you can't force secerts out. She supports mari plenty and learned stuff as scarabella. It's nit her fault her apology was cut and technically lila never actively showed maliciousness for a while and lila did her best to pretend to be good and tricked teachers and parents. Not her fault that writing didn't make sense and when she does try to get mari to make better choices abd communicate mari tends to stall or avoid.

In the case kf the most resent episode....alya found out mari had lied and was understandably upset when this is a BIG lie and situation to be in. Alya has learned trying to out the truth too early can have consequences and alya wants to believe naei will make the right choice.

Sure alya won't remember to pressure mari...but mari will remember alya's reaction. Abd that IS pressure where mari faced someone who she values disagreeing with her choice a d giving her a warning....while akya catching on mari dies have a secert ir domething bothering her means the focus is alya's anger was not just at the choice but js still out jf concern...alya is still on mari's side and alya is still newer to this.

Trying to dismiss how the show dodges mari facing issues by trying to bring up others doesn't hold up as much.

Seriously...compare alya/wifi censure from the begining to now shows alot of growth and faith.

Liar. Shameless liar.

Yes, I am pissed that there is no improvement to be seen yet for the third season in a row in how Marinette takes advantage of Chat Noir and his trust. And, no, this episode pointing out Marinette's lies is not enough to give this a pass. Alya losses her memory in the end so Marinette goes back to being held to no standards by anyone around her. She will just continue doing it until hell breaks loose, like always.

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