#Messianic Theology

[ladyphlogiston]

Part of what makes Christianity at large not a cult is there is no Secret Knowledge. It's all there. You can't level up.

My sister, discussing gnostic heresies

[hindahoney]

Let's talk about appropriation of Judaism, and hijacking Jewish history

"According to Halacha, Jews who abandon their Jewishness by choice become 'meshumadim' (An example being messianic "jews" of Jewish ancestry). Though Jewish by lineage, they cannot claim any privilege pertaining to Jewish status. To make it simple: if we don't claim you, you don't get to claim us."

Credit: insta user @rootsmetals

[piedoesnotequalpi]

Hey! Friendly reminder! While interfaith families exist and are great and I love hearing about the new traditions people create together, one cannot be Jewish and Christian simultaneously* (religiously speaking)! The belief systems actively contradict each other!

-signed, a very tired Jewish person

*Note that I am referring to religion-as-theology rather than religion-as-culture here

[grandpasessions]

Philosopher John Gray has claimed that

“if anything defines ‘the West’ it is the pursuit of salvation in history. It is historical teleology—the belief that history has a built-in purpose or goal—rather than traditions of democracy or tolerance, that sets western civilization apart from all others”.

Both capitalism and communism “were messianic movements, using the language of reason and science, but actually driven by faith”.

When the object of that faith is progress, and when the stakes involve war and bloodshed, lucidity when we are tempted to take our guiding myths as fact is particularly important, and for Gray,

“belief in progress has become a mechanism of self-deception that serves only to block perception of the evils that come with the growth of knowledge”.

This critique of self-deception leads Gray back to a more accurate foundational myth, that of original sin, fully acknowledged in its mythical status but nonetheless operative and useful as a corrective to more potentially dangerous modern myths of progress.

The Fallout of Redemption J. Acquisto

[mindfulldsliving]

Ezekiel 37 Prophecy: Uniting Sacred Texts and Peoples

We aim to explore the intricate connections between this Old Testament prophecy and the teachings within the Book of Mormon. Knowing the background and context of these scriptures helps to illuminate their potential meanings and enriches our appreciation

The Prophecy of Ezekiel 37: Unveiling Its Connection to the Book of MormonCriticism of Ezekiel 37:15-17 and Its Relation to the Book of MormonUnderstanding the Two SticksEzekiel 37:15-19: Books or Sticks? From Mormonism Research Ministries – by Bill McKeever and Eric JohnsonAppraising Ministries blog – Two Sticks: Refuting the Mormon View of Ezekiel 37:15-17 by Pastor – Teacher Ken…

[xenofact]

Getting a Handle On The Messiahs

I live in Silicon Valley, which as we’ve seen, has spawned people with Messiah Complexes. There’s always someone out there ready to save the world with their new solution or idea - you can check the marketing materials. And if you think you know who I’m talking about, you’re probably wrong by the odds - because we’ve got a lot of them.

I also move in spiritual and political spaces. There’s plenty of messiahs there to, ready to tell you how to save your soul and save the world., sometimes at the same time It’s the same old gig we’ve seen for thousands of years, really. Oh, and once again if you think you know who I’m taking about you’re probably wrong because of, again, the odds.

Now you may think I’m going to talk about grifters and opportunists. I am, tangentially, but I’m also talking self-proclaimed Messiahs in general. Because Messianism goes pathological if it didn’t start that way.

Think about what it takes to think you’re a Messiah. You have to believe that you are the one or a small amount of the ones who will save the planet. You have to know that it’s up to you to do everything, that you’re the linchpin of human history. You have to think you’re really special, if not touched by God or his/her immediate stand-in.

Know what you also have to believe? That everyone else is useless without you.

To be a Messiah is to know you’re special and by contrast everyone else is lesser. A Messiah may not say it, may not think it, but they must believe everyone else is lost without them. I don’t’ buy the superiority of these Messiahs, but it seems obvious many of them didn’t just buy it, they got a subscription.

In fact, to be a Messiah, you need other people to be worse than you. Messiahs are nothing without someone to save. To be the savior is to need people who need saving, and without that a Messiah means nothing. If your identity is bound up in being a Messiah, then other people automatically get a downgrade in your book.

What of those people who don’t think they need you? To many a Messiah, they’re the enemy, the disbeliever, the opponent of humanity. To get in the way of the Great Savior by not believing in them shakes up the entire Messiah’s belief system.

Being a Savior needs the saved, and needs someone to explain why the salvation isn’t happening.

This is a pretty toxic mix. You have to believe people are worse and that you’re the best or better. I also am pretty damn sure many a self-proclaimed Messiah started with the dislike of other people or increased self-regard, and then built up from there. I imagine many an honest, sincere Messiah even lost their metaphysical marbles confronting all of these psychodynamics.

Even a potential benevolent Messiah risks getting pretty goddamn pathological. I’m sure in this day and age many of the mass-media Messianic Maniacs started pathological and only went up from there - or down, depending on your viewpoint.

So no, I don’t trust Messiahs. I trust people, folks as messy as I am, hands dirty, getting busy just trying to get things done. There’s lots of those, working every day. Some of them may be legitimate Messiahs . . .

. . . but you’d never know it. And maybe it’s better that way for all of us.

Xenofact

[bristolchurch]

Revealing the Divine: Exploring Christophanies in the Old Testament

The significance of recognising and comprehending Christophanies, or Old Testament appearances of Christ, lies in their role in revealing God’s nature, character, and redemptive plan. The Pre-Incarnate Christ: Christophanies reveal Christ’s presence and activity in the world prior to His birth as a human being. These appearances help to establish Christ’s eternal nature and active involvement in…

[notaplaceofhonour]

I was raised in the People of Destiny cult (later renamed, and more well-known as, Sovereign Grace Ministries, now Sovereign Grace Churches).

The valorization of martyrdom and The End Times was so ubiquitous it was ambient noise. We stood in the church lobby theorizing about who the antichrist would be, we argued about whether Jesus would rapture us all before, after, or during the Tribulation Period where Satan would be given free reign over the earth. There was a strong Christian Zionist fixation on Israel as the final battleground and capital of the coming Messianic Age. But the one thing we were all certain of was is that we were in the End Times, that we were not of this world and couldn’t get too attached to our lives here.

We were raised to believe our sin nature made us undeserving of life, that we deserved death and eternal conscious torture.

My parents read us the Jesus Freaks books (a series by Christian Rap group DC Talk about martyrs). I spent “devotional time” reading Fox’s Book of Martyrs. We had guest speakers from Voice of the Martyrs, their pamphlets were often stocked in our church’s information center. We grew up with our dad listening to right wing talk radio and making us listen to songs about how the Godless atheists were outlawing Christianity in America, that we could all become martyrs soon.

The group’s theology was damaging & traumatic in a lot of other ways that contributed to the suicidality I have continued to struggle with for the rest of my life. For a long time I did not believe I would live past 20. There are times when the idea of giving my death meaning by using public suicide to make a political statement has appealed to me.

So now, seeing so many social media posts glorifying the suicide of a US Airman this week, I have been furious. Reading his social media posts, I recognize so much about the way I was raised in his all-or-nothing, black-or-white mindset, the valorization of death-seeking & martyrdom, and the apocalyptic fire-and-brimstone imagery of self-immolation. The moment I saw people I followed celebrating his self-immolation, I said to myself “this feels like a cult”

So when I learned he was raised in a cult too, nothing could have made more sense to me. His political orientation may have changed, but his mindset did not—it was no less extreme or cult-like.

I’ve talked about so many of the reasons this response from the broader left scares me, including how it’s laundering that airman’s antisemitic beliefs, but I cannot think of anything that would hit me in a more personal place than this specific response to this specific situation has.

When I see the images, I think: that could have been me. That scares me, and what scares me more is that so many prominent people are overwhelmingly sending the message to people like me that there is nothing else we can do that would have a more meaningful impact than killing ourselves for the cause.

I do not believe that. I will not even entertain it. And having to see his death over and over and over again, to argue against people who are treating this like an intellectual/moral exercise or a valid debate we all have to consider has been immensely triggering and fills me with a rage I rarely feel. It’s unconscionable that we are even putting self-harm on the table, and that pushing back against that is somehow controversial.

There is hope. Our lives do have meaning. There are far more effective means of fighting injustice. And the world is a better place for having you in it. Don’t fall into believing this is a way to give life purpose.

[sabakos]

The ritual aspects of religion are far more fascinating and worth preserving than the theology, that thing Japan has going on where they have a bunch of incoherent festivals that none of the participants understand the meaning or purpose of seems like it's the way to do it. Nobody to the left of Shinzo Abe even remembers which stuff was Buddhist or Shinto or Taoist anymore.

So I really think the problem in the west is not appropriating religion enough. If you're truly upset about "cultural Christianity" and not just concern trolling messianic Zionism, the best response is to celebrate christian rituals as loudly, offensively, and incorrectly as possible. Get a giant inflatable light-up hippopotamus dressed as santa claus and stick it in your front yard the day after Thanksgiving. Invite your devout christian coworkers out for chinese food on Christmas morning and act disappointed when they can't come along. Buy a Christmas tree and put a menorah on top of it instead of a star. Ask white people if they celebrate Kwanzaa.

[ladyphlogiston]

Louis Evely, quoted in The Other Side of Silence by Morton Kelsey.

[determinate-negation]

ok so by the time I sent the last ask I then saw you answered more questions about these tunnels. ngl I still don't understand anything so maybe I should ask if you recommend any books or documentaries that will be enlightening for people not in the know about hasidic communities (apologies if that's the wrong verbiage)

basically chabad is a very big hasidic movement that has a large presence in nyc, and the rebbe menachem mendel schneerson was a major figure of establishing chabad lubavitch in new york post ww2. an extremist messianic sect within chabad believes that the rebbe is the messiah, and that he didnt actually die. this is technically not recognized by chabad leadership, because it is pretty heretical, and they say its a fringe position, but its definitely a very mainstream belief among chabad in nyc. like you cant walk around the city without seeing these posters up with a photo of schneerson

this thread kind of explains more about the hassidic movement and chabad in nyc

https://x.com/kilovh/status/1744884820780397015?s=46&t=kNkxEGlbDjt69LgNEB9ZBw

dont know any books or documentaries but maybe my followers do

[idylls-of-the-divine-romance]

The Song of Song's is sensual!!!1!

The Song of Song's is spiritual!!!!1!

The song of songs is spiritual and sensual, and literal and allegorical, and dreamy and passionate, and mystical and earthly, and erotic and pure, and romantic and abstinent, and idealistic and realistic, and pastoral and political, and religious and relatable, and historical and messianic.

And a failure to understand that all of these things are simultaneously true and are not opposites nor contradictions, is a failure to understand this book. And it's a book worth understanding. This book reverses the Fall of the (G)arden. It is Paradise Restored. It is the healing of the relationship between humans and humans, between humans and The Divine, and between humans and nature.

I repeat, a failure to understand this, is a failure to understand this book. Now go read it!

Also, one final thing: no, The Song of Songs is not in conflict with "Pauline Theology" (goodness I hate that phrase). In fact both the author of Songs and Paul are both dedicated to the same thing: healing the rift between humans and each other, and healing the rift between humans and God. Part of understanding the Scriptures is understanding that is is a commentary on itself. It all goes BACK to Genesis 1-3 (The Sublime Creation Narrative, and the (G)Arden Narrative) and FORWARD to the Messiah

[givemearmstopraywith]

do you have any suggestions for material that approaches theology with marxist thought? i Have gone through liberation/womanist theology stuff but none that so explicitly called itself marxist

you might enjoy critical theory if you're not already familiar. none of these writers are theologians or even theists, but they are strongly influenced by marxism and i find they fill in the gaps of theology where i wish for more marxism. they radically reshaped my theology even as they are highly critical of institutional christianity and i strongly recommend them.

dialectic of enlightenment: critical theory and the messianic light by jacob klapwijick (good introductory primer)

negative dialectics by theodor adorno

"the dogma of christ" by erich fromm

max horkheimer's "theism and theism" and "religion and philosophy"

herbert marcuse's an essay on liberation

everyone i haven't directly linked can be found in this book.

you've mentioned you went through some womanist/liberation theology: the thing with both theologies is that, particularly for catholic theologians writing in the 1980s, there was a real danger to explicit marxism. marxism is atheistic: anyone utilizing marxist rhetoric or calling themselves marxist jeopardized their safety and inclusion, especially during the reagan administration, so liberation theologians like guiterrez were actively either shunned or discouraged from being "too marxist." i won't recommend their work again, but i strongly encourage you to reread them after engaging in some critical theory- my experience of liberation theology was radically changed by doing this, since liberation theology finds its origins in critical theory. additionally, you might be interested in:

the long loneliness by dorothy day

in the vale of tears: on marxism and theology by roland boer

class struggle in the new testament by robert j miles

christian socialism: an informal history by john cort

all things in common: the economic practices of the early christians by roman a. montero

prophetic encounters: religion and the american radical tradition by dan mckanan

speak truth to power a quaker search for an alternative to violence by bernard rustin

the life and work of camilo torres restrepo, dorothy day, benard rustin, and simone weil

i like this article a lot too

this is a bit all over the place, but it might be helpful for starting off- and again, i encourage you to reconsider liberation theologians, especially gustavo gutierrez, marcella althaus-reid, and james h cone. they are easily the most important thinkers for liberation theology and all of them are driven deeply and intrinsically by marxism even if they don't write explicitly about it. you might also like sallie mcfague: i recommend the body of god: an ecological theology and life abundant: rethinking theology and economy for a planet in peril.

[pink-fiat003]

When and where did you first learn about Christianity, and when and why did you decide to become Christian?

I didn't actually start learning about religion seriously until in high school when one of my relatives told me he was a Catholic. As a Muslim, I had no clue about Christian theology at all. So I watched YouTube videos, read "The Case for Jesus" by Brant Pitre (which is a 5/5 book), and the Bible. However, once I started going to Mass with him and being near the presence I think that was the final nail in the coffin and eventually led me to believe. For me, the strongest argument is the fact that there's strong historical evidence for Christ's ministry and the crucifixion -it's difficult to deny it happened. It also doesn't make sense to me that a prophet would come 600 years later if Jesus made it clear he was completing the Messianic prophecy to the Jews - which has a lot of basis in the Jewish books. I could go on with a lot more arguments.

But in conclusion, the historical arguments are the strongest reasons for pushing me towards becoming a Catholic. I was baptized and received all of my sacraments this year. Thank you for asking!

[gaiuskamilah]

i'm so fascinated with rheya's story and the concept of her as their goddess, because it's such an obvious rejection of christianity. of course, this is no surprise considering that the book lead is a jewish man and the series has multiple times subverted the antisemitic tropes associated with vampires. religious themes are prominent in bloodbound, and the treatment of it and its distinct parallels to a certain point of view of christianity i think can't be denied.

rheya is referred to as a goddess throughout the series. she's a priestess and arguably the goddess phampira made flesh, which already draws parallels to jesus, who was a spiritual leader himself. gaius augustine is roman and her most devoted follower, converting (turning) people across the world in a similar way the roman st paul the apostle did. gaius also shares a name with st augustine of hippo, arguably the most important philosopher in christian history and theology.

to be a vampire in bb is to drink the blood of another vampire, and all are descended from the priestess-goddess rheya. this immediately evokes similar Eucharistic notions - as in john 6:53-54, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day."

rheya herself has inspired canon organized religion. the chapel built by dracula is highly reminiscent of catholic and orthodox churches:

in the bonus scene in the dark solstice, serafine is also shown to be praying to rheya. this in particular caught my attention because of how it was worded:

"when the First shall return to us... when the Order will burn... when we may once again be free" it's a very messianic prayer and in itself mirrors the christian belief that one day, jesus will return and enact his will and his kingdom onto the earth.

the whole passage can be compared to the lord's prayer. "when the first shall return to us... when the order will burn" - "hallowed be thy name / thy kingdom come / thy will be done / on earth as it is in heaven" which talks about second coming of jesus, and in this case, rheya. vampires are waiting for salvation, waiting for and asking for "deliverance from evil".

despite all this, bloodbound actively rejects rheya as god made flesh, rejects the notion of her as their savior, and arguably even the concept of a savior. mc denying that rheya is neither savior nor goddess is akin to denying that jesus is the savior and is god:

and this even extends to her name itself - rheya apostolous. "christ" is not jesus' actual name, it's a title that means savior. and while we can take "rheya apostolous" as a typical first name-last name thing, i choose to view "apostolous" as a title - and apostolous means "apostle", a follower, not a savior or a goddess.

and again, knowing that the book lead is a jewish man makes this approach make more sense. through christianity has undeniably jewish roots and jesus was jewish himself, judaism denies that jesus is the messiah. this approach to vampire lore as well as the care that was put into it in order to subvert antisemitic tropes rife the concept of vampires makes bloodbound such a refreshing take on the vampire genre as a whole.

[buggie-hagen]

Books I've read in 2023:

On First Principles by Origen. Translated by John Behr.

Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself) by David Zahl

Luther's Outlaw God, vol. 1: Hiddenness, Evil, and Predestination by Steven Paulson

Luther's Works, vol. 23: Sermons on the Gospel of St. John, Chapters 6-8

Boys and Oil: Growing Up Gay in a Fractured Land by Taylor Brorby

Theology is for Proclamation by Gerhard O. Forde

Luther's Outlaw God, vol. 2: Hidden in the Cross by Steven Paulson

The Annotated Luther, vol. 4: Pastoral Writings ed. by Mary Jane Haemig

Call Me By Your Name by André Aciman

Atomic Habits: An Easy and Proven Way to Build Good Habits and to Break Bad Ones by James Clear

Who is the Church?: An Ecclesiology for the Twenth-first Century by Cheryl M. Peterson

Messianic Exegesis: Christological Interpretation of the Old Testament in Early Christianity by Donald Juel

Luther's Outlaw God, vol. 3: Sacraments and God's Attack on the Promise by Steven Paulson

Ragged: Spiritual Disciplines for the Spiritually Exhausted by Gretchen Ronnevik

The Early Versions of the New Testament: their origin, transmission, and limitations by Bruce Metzger

The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman

Confessing Jesus: The Heart of Being a Lutheran by Molly Lackey

Adamantius: Dialogue on the True Faith in God translated by Robert A. Pretty

The Annotated Luther, vol. 5: Christian Life in the World, edited by Hans Hillerbrand

The End is Music: A Companion to Robert W. Jenson's Theology by Chris E. W. Green

Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself by Melodie Beattie

The Church Unknown: Reflections of a Millenial Pastor by Seth Green

Reading While Black: African American Biblical Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope by Esau McCaulley

A Guide to Pentecostal Movements for Lutherans by Sarah Hinlicky Wilson

Daily Grace: The Mockingbird Devotional, vol. 2

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Not listed are some books that I chose not to finish and some books that I have yet to finish.