#Marv Wolfman Story

[keycomicbooks]

Vigilante #1 (1983) Keith Pollard Cover & Pencils, Marv Wolfman Story, Dick Giordano Inks, Origin of Vigilante (Adrian Chase), 1st Appearances of Jonathan Davis, Terry Gomez

#Vigilante #1 (1983) #KeithPollard Cover & Pencils, #MarvWolfman Story, #DickGiordano Inks, Origin of Vigilante (Adrian Chase), 1st Appearances of Jonathan Davis, Terry Gomez "A Fable for Our Times!" Vigilante is given the chance to take down one of his oldest enemies, evil businessman Mister Quilt, a thoroughly disgusting human being. As D.A. of New York City, Adrian had unsuccesfully prosecuted Quilt four times. SAVE ON SHIPPING COST - NOW AVAILABLE FOR LOCAL PICK UP IN DELTONA  https://www.rarecomicbooks.fashionablewebs.com/Vigilante.html   #KeyComicBooks #DCComics #DCU #DCUniverse #KeyIssue

[kelaeri]

Presenting... my finally completed collection of the 1996 Nightwing series!

The only exception, of course, being Devin Grayson's #71-100 which were never collected in Nightwing titled graphic novels. But anyway, this series I highly recommend starting with if you want to read Nightwing-- not with comics that were released later. I know they're popular and the art is more modern, but trust me. Post-Crisis (generally) gives a much deeper look into his character.

[roseworth]

Hi sorry not to be weird but you're the local Rose expert and I was wondering if you could help me? I'm trying to figure out what ethnic group Lili Worth belongs to. I know she's from Cambodia so logic says she would most likely be Khmer, but the fact that she was fleeing the Khmer Rouge puts that kinda in doubt for me? I've seen a few things saying she's Hmong which would make sense as they were a minority group during the Cambodian Genocide but they're a pretty small portion of the population and I haven't seen anything canon supporting it, just fan posts. When it comes to Lili I've really only read Deathstroke the Terminator (1991) so I'm not super familiar with her. Sorry for any trouble!

!!! no trouble at all <3

as far as i know it never specifically said which ethnic group she was pre-52, but in deathstroke #15 slade says that lili was a "local princess in the siem pang"

honestly i dont know a lot about the different ethnic groups in cambodia but google says that the common ethnic groups in the siem pang are the khmer and lao. i guess we can assume shes lao since she was fleeing the khmer rouge? but unfortunately the real answer is that marv wolfman put 0 thought into any of this

but then. in deathstroke #43 suddenly she says she was trained by the khmer rouge??? idk if this is a retcon or if we're supposed to assume that they trained her to fight while she was imprisoned???? odd choices all around tbh

so short answer: its not specified and wolfman probably didnt even consider any of it for more than 5 seconds

but!!! during rebirth in deathstroke (2016) she and rose are confirmed hmong!

and they've been hmong ever since <3

[starsapphire]

the jess drew laser retcon gets me EVERY time like what the fuck was bendis on. like he thought "jessica's mother got shot directly in the womb with a magic spider gene splice laser beam and then didn't go to the doctor about it" was more believable than "experimental medical treatment". and they published it

[about-faces]

TOP 22 TWO-FACE STORIES OF ALL TIME

20.) Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying (1989) from Batman #440-442 and New Titans #60-61

Besides the Tim Drake origin, this is a great look at how a Batman without Robin leaves him deadlocked with a conflicted Harvey in a deadly game of cat-and-also-cat. This is the first hint of Harvey having a distinct secondary personality, where the Joker’s gaslighting leads to Harvey possibly developing an actual alter for Two-Face. Awesome Jim Aparo art accompanies work by the legendary George Perez, who sadly doesn’t draw Harvey for more than a couple pages.

[cantsayidont]

December 1992. I've never quite made up my mind about this graphic novel, originally released as a slim, very expensive hardcover, and intended as the definitive origin of Ra's al Ghul. Here are some pros and cons:

It's the best Batman story Denny O'Neil ever wrote, at least from the standpoint of execution. A lot of O'Neil's classic Batman stories were written as inventory stories, and feel like it; were it not for Neal Adams' art on some of them, they would not be nearly as highly regarded as they now are, and some are real stinkers. In construction, theme, characterization, and mood, this might be his most accomplished comics work.

It's appalling Orientalist hokum, even for O'Neil. In the interests of avoiding any possible politicization of Ra's al Ghul (who is fundamentally an Arab version of Fu Manchu, much as O'Neil and Adams tried to deny it), his origin is set in a fantasy Arabian kingdom that no longer exists and has no sense of actual place or period — lazy, non-confrontational worldbuilding for white readers who consider 1,001 Nights too gritty and realistic.

I've never liked Norm Breyfogle's art, so having him draw this important story was not a plus. (I know some people love Breyfogle's work, it's fine, a matter of taste, don't @ me.)

It has some of Breyfogle's best pencils, but the painted color was a mistake. Painted comics were briefly "in" around this time, and I guess it was a way to add a sense of occasion, but it tends to undermine the penciled art, which is admittedly quite good.

I'm not convinced Ra's al Ghul needed — or benefited from having — a real origin. O'Neil does try to hedge this in the text by presenting the origin as the account of a now-dead former associate, the veracity of which would be nigh-impossible to verify, but as with the Joker's origin in THE KILLING JOKE, once it was out there, it was going to be treated as canonical unless someone made an active effort to debunk it. I tend to think a character like Ra's al Ghul works better if Bruce is never quite sure how much is real and how much is smoke and mirrors, which was certainly the vibe in O'Neil's earlier Ra's stories. I always assumed that one of the reasons O'Neil was so antipathetic to Ra's stories he didn't write was that they were too literal, so I dunno.

It's better than its immediate predecessors, SON OF THE DEMON (which has lovely Jerry Bingham art for a frustrating story) and BRIDE OF THE DEMON (which has no virtues I can think of), but every time I look at this book, all I can do is sigh and click my teeth.

[robocops-a-christ-allegory]

Paul Kupperberg in interviews talking about Peacemaker and Vigilante is like. “Oh yeah I got put on Vigilante after writing some guest issues and then it ended. Yeah I started writing Peacemaker because he was a charlton character and nobody had any ideas for what to do with him anyway so.” and then the interviewer never asks him anything actually interesting so thats all we get.

[shadowwingtronix]

Beast Machine Hunters> The First Story Bible finale

BW concludes phase one of Beast Machine Hunters with The First Story Bible finale, completing our look at Marv Wolfman's Beast Hunters story treatment.

Last time we finished Marv Wolfman’s story treatment but the whole story treatment includes one last section. In this part the focus is a description of the Maximals and Vehicons themselves, and while there are two more books to review in this series it is the end of the Beast Hunters version of what became Beast Machines. The biggest issue with Wolfman’s treatment–outside of more typos than me,…

[evilhorse]

What’s wrong with me, father?

[confusedhummingbird]

"To me, Dick is the one hero who simply decided being a fighter for justice was the right thing to do. The murder of Dick's parents was solved almost immediately so there was never a feeling he needed revenge. Even back when he was created he was someone who made bad jokes and seemed to have fun doing what he did. He wasn't the sole survivor of a doomed planet. He didn't feel responsible for the death of his parents. He wasn't appointed an intergalactic cop. When Batman put his parent's killer behind bars he saw that stopping crime was something worth believing in. Dick is the only one I know who is like that. And he does it without having been given any special powers. To me Dick is the best kind of character there can be; he's dedicated to his cause for all the right reasons. Plus he's human, so Dick has to work hard to be good. Unlike Superman he has no natural powers. Shoot him and he will be hurt. That makes the story more interesting."

-Marv Wolfman

Dick Grayson, Boy Wonder : Scholars and Creators on 75 Years of Robin, Nightwing and Batman.

[keycomicbooks]

FANTASTIC FOUR #217 (1980) Joe Sinnot Cover & John Byrne Pencils, Marv Wolfman Story, Death of HERBIE (Destruction)

#FANTASTICFOUR #217 (1980) #JoeSinnot Cover & #JohnByrne Pencils, #MarvWolfman Story, #DeathofHERBIE (Destruction) "Masquerade!" As Reed immerses himself in the task of repairing the Baxter Building's systems from last issue, Sue berates her husband for sending Franklin to Whisper Hill to be looked after by Agatha Harkness, and for ignoring her protestations before walking out on her husband. SAVE ON SHIPPING COST - NOW AVAILABLE FOR LOCAL PICK UP IN DELTONA, FLORIDA  https://www.rarecomicbooks.fashionablewebs.com/FantasticFour%202.html#217  #RareComicBooks #KeyComicBooks #MarvelComics #MCU #MarvelUniverse #ComicBooks #NerdyGifts #KeyIssue

[wilwheaton]

One very simple question :)

(Tv/comics)

Marvel. Or DC?

I have liked them both and disliked them both, at different points in my life, for a variety of reasons. At the moment, I'm not paying attention to them at all.

When I was a kid, I was all about Xmen and Fantastic Four from Marvel and, Batman and Justice League (Marv Wolfman's run in the late 80s) from DC. Never really cared for Superman. The 1967 Spider-Man was awesome as a cartoon, but I rarely read the comic book.

In the 70s, I was only allowed one comic per week, usually picked out from whatever was left on that spinning rack at the drugstore. So more often than not, I ended up with something like House of Secrets or House of Mystery or one of those horror anthologies that didn't need me to read the issues before or after, like the serialized superhero comics did. I got a lot of replay value from those books.

In the 80s, I had my own money and the ability to drive myself to comic conventions, and that's when I fell in love with Sandman, Watchmen, pretty much the entire Prestige Format that became Vertigo. I recall feeling like Marvel was for kids, then, and DC was serious. I was only 16, so take that for what it's worth.

But speaking of being 16, I'm gonna focus on Batman for a sec. I loved Batman 89, and I think all the efforts to make a Batman movie ever since have fallen short in ways I couldn't predict back then. It's gotten better with age and by comparison, for me. Michael Keaton is my favorite Batman, the way Christian Bale is my favorite modern Bruce Wayne (they both pale next to Pure. West. if anyone asks me).

The OG Batman series is maybe my favorite series of all time not called Star Trek or The Prisoner, and the 1966 movie is my favorite of all the Batman movies. Of course I love the animated series, and I get to be Blue Beetle in Brave and the Bold, so that's pretty awesome and its whole own thing.

Turning to the current moment, with rare exception, all the MCU and DCU movies do nothing for me. I thought I must have been missing something, so tried really hard to give them a chance to knock me out. I watched as many of the MCU movies as I could stand, and I just felt exhausted and bored by all of it, by the time I got to ... I can't even remember. Something with maybe Thanos and Ant-Man? I felt like it was a big, complicated mess of fan service and meetings that could have been e-mails, resulting in in a stew full of interesting ingredients that have all blended together into a flavorless paste. I do enjoy all the James Gunn movies, though, even if Chris Pratt is the worst Chris, because James always centers the characters and their conflicts, then uses the action and stunts to support the story.

I feel like a lot of this sounds harsh, but even Star Wars, my favorite movie when I was a kid, has grown into something I don't recognize or care about. I'm old. I know what I like and what I don't like. I'm not patient like I once was, and it's clear I'm not the person those studios want in the theatre, anyway. I could make that joke about how it's the children who are wrong, but I accept that I am not in the demo, and I am genuinely happy for everyone who loves the spectacle and the experience of seeing those films with an enthusiastic audience. I just won't be there with you, but you can find me in the parking lot, yelling at a cloud.

...wow that's a very big answer to a very simple question.

[silverwhittlingknife]

hi Silver! o/ because that fanart made me wonder - would you happen to know when/where Dick's stuffed elephant plush Zitka turns up in the comics?

GREETINGS CAM <3333 THAT ART WAS SO CUTE

Yeah, I think your instincts are right - it's a truly adorable bit of transformative fandom, but I'm 95% percent sure it's not comics canon. Barbara has canon plushies, but I don't think anyone else does.

I got kinda invested in the investigation (it's hard to prove a negative!) and I ended up typing out an entire History of Elinore/Zitka, so, uh, if you're curious, meet me below the cut for:

Where does Elinore / Zitka - the animal - appear in comics?

Did Dick ever have a stuffed elephant toy in comics?

Where does Elinore / Zitka appear in comics?

We're gonna go in chronological order!

Dick's circus elephant friend was first created for practical reasons: in Batman 436, Marv Wolfman does a big expanded flashback to Dick's circus backstory as a way to subtly show us Tim before officially introducing him (so that we can have a technically-solvable mystery-of-Tim's-identity in LPoD). In this comic, there's an elephant named Elinore who loves Dick:

Aww. Such a cute elephant!

Batman 436 comes out in August 1989. New Titans 60 comes out a few months later, in November, and guess what? When Dick visits the circus, he is suddenly surprised by an unexpected blast from the past! It turns out that even though it's been years, Elinore still remembers him!

Here's the part where Elinore remembers Dick:

SUCH a cute elephant. I love her.

(Guess who else still remembers Dick even though it was so long ago. Guess which other character is about to be an unexpected blast from the past. Guess which character Elinore is directly paralleling guess guess guess sorry everything is about Dick and Tim in my mind but I can focus I swear)

Four years later, in 1993, Batman: The Animated Series retells Dick's origin story. They like and keep Wolfman's elephant, but they change her name to Zitka:

Wolfman doesn't return to the elephant beyond those two appearances, and a few years down the line, New Titans gets cancelled and Wolfman's not writing Dick anymore anyway. So the animal gets abandoned for a while, until Devin Grayson, a fan of both Wolfman and B:tAS, revives the Wolfman-era Titans team in JLA/Titans and then the ongoing series Titans 1999.

Grayson then brings back the elephant in a flashback to Dick's past in Titans 16 (Jun 2000), where she imports the B:tAS name. Sometimes I'm skeptical of TV-to-comics imports, but honestly, I endorse this one. You lose the alliteration, which is a shame, but IMO Zitka is a better elephant name than Elinore.

Here's Dick with the newly-christened Zitka in Titans 16:

Grayson also briefly references the elephant in Gotham Knights 20 and - in a final angsty callback - in Nightwing 88 (Feb 2004), where Zitka tries futilely to comfort Dick in the midst of his trauma conga line:

... And... honestly, I think that's it for comic appearances? The two Wolfman comics plus the three Grayson comics.

Both Wolfman and Grayson are writing multiple titles - Batman, New Titans, Titans, Gotham Knights, and Nightwing between the two of them, spanning a big chunk of Dick's post-Crisis canon - and both writers use the elephant for heartwarming moments of nostalgia, which means if you're doing a post-Crisis readthrough for Dick, Elinore/Zitka feels memorable. But I don't think she actually shows up that much.

For post-2011, I am not as well-informed - throwing this out to the dash? anyone know? - but I feel like Zitka the heartwarming symbol of Dick's heartwarming circus past is, uh, thematically very at odds with the Court of Owls evil!circus vibes, so my instinct is that this story element was almost certainly dropped in the reboot.

Did Dick ever have a stuffed elephant toy in comics?

In WFA, yes; in main comics continuity, no. Technically, I have not read every comic ever published, so I could be wrong!! But I don't think so.

Below, find my rambling reasoning on the tonal vibes of pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, and post-2011, and why this particular story element doesn't seem right to me for the first two.

Pre-Crisis (...okay, mostly the Silver Age): stuffed animal, yes or no?

tl;dr no, requires too much background knowledge on the part of the reader, plus the elephant wasn't a thing until later

Elinore doesn't get created until post-Crisis, but also just generally, pre-Crisis callbacks are more along the lines of this reference in Batman 129 (published in 1960), where, wow, Batman and Robin are hunting jewel thieves - and it turns out Robin recognized this strongman! BUT HOW?!

The comic goes on to recap Dick's entire origin story in flashback, on the assumption that you may not know it.

(BTW, if you'd like to know more about Haly's Circus throughout the years, nightwingology has a great post here summarizing a lot of fun plotlines and characters!)

Basically: Silver Age comics are very self-consciously episodic and kid-friendly; they're not generally gonna do overly-elaborate callbacks because they don't know what comics their kid readers may have randomly picked up or remember.

By the time of post-Crisis, comic books were being written for an adult audience buying from the direct market, i.e. readers who are collecting whole runs & don't need or want Dick's origin story to be recapped to us in full every time it's referenced. That's why in post-Crisis, we get stuff like "hey, neat, this particular soda brand is getting mentioned in several different books!!" or "in order to understand this story arc, buy SIXTEEN DIFFERENT COMICS in FIVE DIFFERENT RUNS and read them ALL ACCORDING TO A NUMBERED ORDER and also you better be following the individual plotlines and recognize these five minor characters who we don't bother to introduce!! Good luck!!" But the elaborate post-Crisis plotlines - and subtler worldbuilding like a stuffed animal callback to Dick's backstory - don't make a lot of story sense UNLESS you're imagining your readers as completionist adult fans.

So IMO a stuffed animal wouldn't be a pre-Crisis thing unless it was The Episodic Story Of the Week, and I don't think a stuffed animal is action-adventure-y enough for the fast-paced storytelling of the Silver Age. (Unless it, like, came to life and tried to eat you or something.)

Post-Crisis: stuffed animals, yes or no?

tl;dr: no, Dick's a manly tough guy, he's not gonna have a stuffed animal, that'd be lame, like something Tim might do

Part of the edgy grimdark adult vibes in 80s/90s comics is that some characters who used to be kinda silly & goofy & lighthearted - like Batman and Robin - get reimagined as Serious and Angsty and Edgy in a Tough Cool Manly Brooding Way. This massively affects characterization for Bruce, Dick, and Bruce and Dick's relationship.

(I obviously love this change & love the tense Bruce-and-Dick interactions, but plenty of fans of the earlier fluffy comics really disliked the edgy retcons of Miller / Wolfman / Starlin / et al.)

The upshot is that post-Crisis is a period when you could have a recurring reference like a stuffed elephant, but you wouldn't have a stuffed elephant, not for Dick. I think a toy like that would be too cutesy / childish / effeminate to give a male character in post-Crisis, unless you were poking fun at him.

Now, you could probably let Tim have a stuffed animal, because Tim is sometimes cool but also sometimes a tryhard loser who is faking being cool and not entirely pulling it off (see e.g. the Robin comic where he practices tough-guy faces in the mirror, or the Teen Titans comic where Conner discovers his cringy Enya CD, or when he's fanboying over Connor and it's awkward, etc etc.). A stuffed animal would be deeply embarrassing, and you'd have to be careful to compensate by having Tim do something cool afterward - but Tim's character concept allows for "he's kind of a loser sometimes."

But Dick isn't!! In post-Crisis, Dick's a tough / impressive / "cool guy" character, the kind of guy anyone would want to be, even in the flashbacks where he's Robin, and even in the stories where he's more lighthearted than angsty. It'd be kinda lame for Dick to have a stuffed elephant, so he wouldn't. I feel like Dick would be more likely to poke fun at it if someone had one, like when he's making fun of Wally for liking the Hardy Boys. Dick could have a Batman action figure, at most, and if he had one he would have it ironically.

Basically: in post-Crisis, a male character hugging a stuffed elephant feels more likely to be a punchline to me, not something poignant. (Even with Tim, Tim could have an embarrassing stuffed animal, but he couldn't hug it when sad - that's too far. Maybe Booster Gold might do this. Probably he wouldn't, but spiritually, he would. Sorry Booster ilu! <3)

Instead, Dick instinctively deals with his inner turmoil like the TORTURED ACTION HERO he is: by punching things and brooding and yelling and joining the mob and sleeping on rooftops and going on obsessive secret missions and acquiring Angsty Stubble!! Just like Batman!

(Technically I don't know if Bruce ever joined the mob but you know he would.)

Anyway as you know this is my favorite continuity and I am poking fun affectionately, but uh, yeah sdfsfdsfs. No stuffed animals.

Post-2011 / Infinite Frontier / Wayne Family Adventures: stuffed animals, yes or no?

tl;dr it's in WFA! Probably not anywhere else, but it could be.

Post-2011 stuff tends to be cutesier overall, most of all in the current Infinite Frontier era. So I don't feel like this would be tonally out-of-line with IF comics. Taylor tends to go for more meme-y references rather than fanfic references, though.

So the obvious best fit is WFA, which is aiming for a rough approximation of Silver Age family-friendly vibes - wholesome, episodic plots, Teaching Good Moral Lessons For The Youth, etc. - plus lots of Easter eggs for fanfic readers and some comic references.

And look, here we are:

Aww.

Whew - that's everything I could find!

Anyway as you can probably tell, I LOVE the elephant, so this was a very entertaining rabbit hole to go down, thank you <3

[celaenaeiln]

Nothing in Batman comics is canon because it’s literally 90% fanfiction written after the actual creators stopped writing the characters.

anon it doesn't work that way.

By that logic, practically noone exists because the original writer of Batman, Bob Kane and Bill Finger, only created Bruce, Dick, Alfred, and the villains gallery. That's it.

No Barbara, no Jason, no Tim, no Damian, Steph, Cass, Duke, Lucius, Tim Fox, Kate, Talia - there's no one then.

But suppose we go back on that statement and say 'well actually, the creators of new characters', which still doesn't make sense but let's go with that. Then major plots wouldn't happen. Because Max Allan Collins and Chris Warner created Jason Todd but Judd Winick is the one who brought him back to life. Marv Wolfman and Pat Broderick created Tim Drake but Alan Grant wrote a lot of the Robin comic and Batman comic characterization for him.

It's physically impossible to say that just because other people continued the series, the comics can't be taken seriously.

Comics are the source material. Of which fanfics are based on.

The Star Trek and Star Wars book series are written by multiple different authors but that doesn't mean that what's written doesn't happen or isn't true or is wrong. The 39 Clues and Doctor Who series are the same deal.

Batman comics are canon. Because if only the works of the original authors of Batman were to be considered canon, then practically everyone in the Batman universe doesn't exist/doesn't matter. Because they're just fanfic then.

But this idea doesn't just stop at the Batman fandom anymore because every comic was written this way. The people in Superfam? Gone. Flashfam? Gone. Arrowfam? Gone. Like this logic doesn't just apply to Batman, it applies to virutally every character in the existence of DC.

The beauty of comics is seeing how the next writer will continue the story. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they need tweaking, and sometimes they're wrong although that's usually very rare.

The problem with fandom's view on comic writing is the belief that whatever the authors create must match our perspective of the characters. That's wrong. Their characterization is what we should be adding on/building on to our perspective of the characters. Unless there is something so wrong, something so illogical, that it must be noted because that character has never acted that way before, then we must discard or critisize a comic.

Comics develop. Characters develop. Each writer brings something new and adds a layer of depth to each character they write about. That's how we get new interactions, new relationships, new sides that make each character interesting.

Take the original Dick Grayson comic and his intro to Robin

Detective Comics (1937) Issue #38

Dick originally wanted to go to the police. He had no intention of going after Tony Zucco but Bruce is the one who demands they go after him together by themselves!

I love this version created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger, but I also love the version created by a completely different author where Dick decides to stake out Zucco on his own. Both versions show different sides of him and authors sometimes even choose which one they want to include. Some have gone with this version where Dick tries to go to the police before being interrupted by Bruce and others have gone with the second, more famous version. But neither of them are bad and you can't say that the one where Dick goes after Tony Zucco is fanfiction. It's canon. If it's written in comics, it happened unless there's some disastrous, glaring contradiction.

You have to understand, these comics - especially Dick and Bruce's - are nearly 100 years old. Dick, and it's wild to think about this, existed before even the Justice League did. Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, and Aquaman were all created after him. If the orginial writers stopped writing, and noone picked it up, there would be no Justice League and that's a problem because the Justice League is one of the foundations of the DC comics.

So much has changed in a century and new writers constantly come in to show that change. That's why comics after the original writers finish writing are still canon and important. The original characterizations of all these major players were all super peppy and cheerful before new writers added angst and drama to their backstories. Bruce and Dick used to laugh and grin when they went crime fighting with no sadness or anger or other emotions. It wasn't until a couple decades later where writers started writing that in which is how we get the grim avenger Batman today.

Here's the third point to why they're relevant even though they're written by new authors: the passage of time in real life, is included in canon comics characterizations.

One comic talks about Dick discussing the Joker and he says, "at the beginning, it was just all fun and games. He would cause problems but at the end of the day it was a game. But one day, things went too far. People got shot. That day, the Joker changed. He was darker and evil. It wasn't games anymore."

This comic panel talks about the Golden Age to now, the progression and development of characters.

The comics and reality are inseparable because reality is literally written in. The works of writers after the orignal ones aren't arbitrary or some whimsical thing.

It's very different from fanfiction because fanfiction has no need to stick to the truth or canon characterization but these comic writers do because they have an obligation to do so. The only problem they might have is accidentally focusing too much on one aspect of a character and neglecting the other parts but almost none of them are way off the mark.

So no, for the sake of characterization, personality development, plot events, and new interactions, all comics are extremely important and definitely canon. Us readers might have different opinions and thoughts on them but it's irrelevant in the face of the fact that the comics are the only truth to which we can base our interpretations on.

[farshootergotme]

Can I just say thank you thank you. 👏👏👏

I grew up with the 2004 Batman cartoon and I have thought Dick and Bruce had a parental relationship whether it be father/son or Big brother/little brother it depends on the adaption.

I have just recently got back into Batman and into comics in general and I was honestly a bit shell shocked to see so much well adopted family incest which is just wow but I’m just numb to the internet at this point so nothing surprises me anymore.

What I can’t stand is liars, I swear these people who ship dick and Bruce together are just straight up in denial in some places just accept you’re shipping something taboo. Don’t lie to me about how much they hold a place in queer history which is greatly exaggerated given how it happen based on a lie by a quack and his horrible book note the beds were separate I checked the infamous comic panel it’s just draw really badly but given how tight the deadlines for comic back in the day were I will forgive that poor artist. Also another book they source from the 2000s book written about the queer coding of Batman and Robin seems to really like to leave out the fact that Dick is a child and is written as one. No matter what gen he was written as young lad with hobbies similar to that generation and time period mostly.

Like yes at the time it was done because homophobia but don’t pretend there wasn’t another issue aka it would be the grooming of a minor like for context homosexuality was see as connected to pedophilia. Like seriously when I was looking into this topic, it honestly felt like telephone because how much the original context of the panel was lost like seriously does no one check sources anymore.

Another thing they don’t bring up is how in the 1940s adopting was very uncommon and seen as weird to many it wasn’t as accepted back then which is why ward was used because that was more acceptable back then. It’s also the reason why Jason was adopted by Bruce because it was more acceptable when he was created. Also it was such a non issue to the writers at the time that even though technically Dick wasn’t adopted by Bruce on panel he still treated as one by the writers mostly before Marv Wolfman decided it make for interesting story to have Bruce not adopted Dick and have Dick have a whole hang up on it and is confused by why Bruce didn’t at that time.

Like literally I am tired of people claiming Dick doesn’t want to be adopted by Bruce or that he never wanted him to his father to him it’s simply just not true although it is complicated. Like Dick won’t call Bruce dad but in his eyes as he got older he saw Bruce as a father figure as well as his second dad and Bruce has always seen Dick as like a son and to his actual son blood or no blood for crying out loud he bloody raised him along with Alfred for over ten years like how could Dick not develop a parental bond with him and Alfred ahh. He may not be father of the year but he still cared and look after him all those years like no wonder Dick felt hurt in the original Marv wolfmen story when he wasn’t adopted.

Now, I will say in the early adaption of Batman and Robin and even the silver age to an extent. Did betray them as brothers because well the age gap was closer in 1966 version and late 70s cartoons of them so I can see why older fans can see it that way and the silver age mostly do a big brother little brother dynamic with them. While golden age seems to flip flop and if they were father/son or Big brother/little brother and the Bronze Age they went to father/son by the end because that was probably more interesting to write. Like a son repelling against his overly critical and overprotective father figure was probably relatable to lot of teens and young adults reading Dick stories at that time. Then the rest of eras after that just settled with them being Father/son duo mostly. We don’t talk about Devin weird ass takes in their relationship I swear she is just inserting herself in some characters just to be creepy towards Richard and well she nearly destroyed Oliver character by writing him being weird about Richard when he was Robin which was just yikes.

I also just find it so gross how she took a very reserved and very ace coded character like Dick Grayson and sexualised him, like making his exotic and making him overly sexual is just huge yikes to me and making him Romani because circus is such a huge stereotype and quite harmful. I have such mix feelings about Richard being romani because of how it was done and Tom Tyler has done a poor job in my opinion as well. Like originally Dick was just pure American then his mother became european notable french in one of them which makes more sense to me. I don’t know, I will eat my socks when it’s done well which would be wonderful but right now it’s just no to me. Also, why Richard like what just because he’s sexy Devin and he is romani because circus. Like my ass is as white as snow but even I know that is a weird ass take and honestly fetishy in nature I feel.

Which leads to me being so weary of people who do use it because like yes some people do it so well take notes writers at DC. But others well… I feel just sexualise him for the sake of it and I get very suspicious of people who make draw Dick overly feminine or straight up make him the wife in the relationship. It just makes my trans man heart nervous because usually they also ship Richard with older man (Bruce with him as well probably…) which in Canon he has called creeps and acts super uncomfortable around them. Like whatever ship your taboo ships just keep a safe distance from me okay. It just sadden how Richard is written as overly sexual and slutty like that is not my boy. 😭

I think the reason it also upset me so much is Bruce in a lot of ways is like my dad when he is written as a well meaning father figure. I relate to Dick being the eldest of many siblings and also my Dad is my stepdad but he has raised since I was nearly one. I know it’s not the same but to me he is my father and nothing will change that. It’s why I can’t stop people who act like Bruce and Dick aren’t father/son because well he’s not adopted by law so it’s doesn’t count but to Bruce already is and honestly I just wish in modern adaption just get adopted as a early teen at this point. Like even modern DC doesn’t hide or exclude Dick Grayson is Bruce Wayne eldest son and I’m so happy for that. (Even though he has been adopted by law but as an adult but I digress.)

I will shot myself mentally if I see another person claim it is DC heteronormative doing their relationship like shut up. You who says this bs you clearly don’t care about queer history or adoption history in general and it’s so harmful how people try to undermine adopted families like that. Like seriously ship what you like just don’t pretend it isn’t taboo as all hell. 😤 Also, anyone who claims this don’t you dare call young queers homophobia because they’re saying how it is. You don’t see people defending pedophilia and incest in Greek mythology do ya.

(Then I think in my head how strange it always the ace coded characters that get sexualised or made the secretly horny seductress/playboy type food for thought.) 🤔

Oh apologies for the kinda rant there but this honestly this has been bothering me about the bat fandom. I will say I’m still a noob when it comes to comic book history and I haven’t read most of Dick and Bruce books but I have done my best to do my homework on them and the rest of Batman history and it members. I have honestly only read modern books like world finest and short teen titans spin off book. I’m currently pre order Mark Waid latest book Batman and Robin year one which I am so excited for truly he is saving me given me some good Father/son moments with Dick and Bruce. Also maybe the new Nightwing which I hope will be good, I read TT run online free because I’m poor :p and it was so boring, Richard just feels so bland in that book. Like I will give TT credit their some good panels and moments but that’s just it. My inner Dick Grayson fanboy is showing ha ha. 😅

Anyway, sorry my rambling but honestly this fandom baffles me sometimes.

I have nothing to add—you said it all. Loved the rant and I agree with all of it! Thanks anon!

[about-faces]

TOP 22 TWO-FACE STORIES OF ALL TIME

7.) “Double Jeopardy”/”Twice Dies the Batman!” (1980) from Batman #328-329

Harvey and Gilda are reunited in this twist-filled tale of love and vengeance. Marv Wolfman’s first Batman story crams several issues’ worth of plot into this two-parter which should have changed everything for Two-Face.