#Marinette stans don't interact

[familyagrestefanblog]

I think I'm soon gonna upload an explanation for why I say that in my opinion Marinette in the original french version of the season 4 finale obviously referred to ALYA having "abandoned her" when she said this:

Cause in my opinion the season 4 finale makes that more than obvious and it's wild to me that people claim she's referring to Fu as if that isn't some wildly out of pocket victim-blaming that has barely anything to do with what happened on-screen.

And no, this is not me salting on Alya. I'm mostly on Alya's side here. And I still wouldn't even call this Marinette salt either because all I'm doing is not blatantly ignoring what's on-screen in their conversation where Alya renounces the Fox miraculous:

Like, it's THERE. Marinette feels betrayed by Alya leaving 'despite' Marinette having voiced her forgiveness. It's on-screen, I don't have to ignore that just because yall rather wanna put it on Fu so you don't have to acknowledge that Marinette has actual flaws that are ugly and shouldn't be swept under the rug.

So yeah, I'll upload an analysis post on that soon. I brought it up here and there and I want to give the proper explanation for why.

[eddo-tensei]

More thoughts on Derision (Spoilers, obviously)

I think it's amusing that the default counter-argument to anyone who criticizes this episode boils down to "Well, you're just a Chloe Stan!" Which is something I had to deal with myself recently. Apparently, you can only hate this episode if you're a Chloe apologist. First off, hi, I'm Eddo. I wrote a fanfic where Chloe literally gets thrown into the dirt and suffer an allergic reaction to cacti, both times being her own fault. I feel like my Chloe Stan license should be revoked after that.

Anyways, I'm not surprised with the direction they went with Chloe in Derision. It's been stated since around Season 4 that Chloe was on a "Damnation Arc", so they've been doing everything they can to make her worse and worse. So, I'm not surprised or even angry that they continued this here. I'm annoyed, but not angry. What I AM angry about would be the other characters who got mangled in this shitshow.

Writers? Could you please stop having Chat threaten people with Cataclysm after he's shown regret doing it to people by accident TWICE?! This has happened three times now, counting what happened with Scarabella. Yes, I know he did this before with Darker Owl, but that just makes it worse because that happened right AFTER he regretted doing this to Monarch. You know, the guy who's been tormenting and attacking everyone for over a year? I guess to Chat, Damocles and Kim deserve it more for ripping away a fantasy and pulling a shitty prank respectively.

I know I complained about this a lot already, but this needs to be stressed upon. If we're going to take Cataclysm seriously, especially with what later episodes showed us, maybe DON'T have your hero threaten people with it for relatively petty reasons? "BUT IT'S FOR TRUE LOVE!!!1!!" Yeah, no. When he tried to do it on Darker Owl, Ladybug told him to cut that crap. It then happened again with Dark Humor with Ladybug telling him not to do it. It doesn't matter if it's for "true love." Both times he did this so far, Ladybug made it clear that this was a bad idea. So, maybe you guys should stop trying to encourage it. I refuse to believe that Chat believes that Monarch is more deserving to live after everything that he did than Kim after what he did. Speaking of Kim...

My friendly neighborhood dumb jock, why would the writers do this to you? When we only had the leaks to go by, I actually tried to scour for any interactions Kim had with Marinette and I can confirm that with the revelations we got in Derision, they REALLY don't make sense. Yes, Kim was a bit of a douche in the first season. Origins had him push Ivan around to the point of being the trigger for the Akuma. But he wasn't THIS much of a douchenozzle. Moreover, I have a hard time believing Marinette would be as friendly as she is with Kim throughout the series given what he did to her as revealed in this episode. Also, I know this is going to sound offensive, but...Kim was Marinette's first crush? Really? That's what you're going with? I'm not trying to insult Kim, but there was NOTHING that hinted to this. I can't help but think this was the thought process of the writers when they brought this up:

"So, we need to have Chloe do something to Marinette that would explain why Marinette struggles to be with Adrien. It has to be something big and traumatic. More importantly, it has to involve Marinette actually having a past crush that Chloe ruined and it has to be a character we're familiar with, so we can't make up an OC for it. We can't use Nino because he had a crush on her and it wouldn't make sense for her to reciprocate. We can't use Nathaniel because his crush went almost completely unnoticed by Marinette and he's also gay now. We can't use Ivan because he likes Mylene and we can't complicate that. We can't use Max because most people think he's ace and subverting that would piss a ton of people off. Oh, and we can't have it be any of the girls either because our show would get cancelled if Marinette isn't straight. So, let's just make it this guy."

"This. Fucking. Guy."

I'm having a hard time thinking of any other reason. I know some people theorized in the past that Kim and Marinette might've had a thing, but I don't think they held any water. Even now, however, I really don't think people should be happy it was canonized in this way.

I always held the belief that Chloe was responsible for Marinette's behavior, but my idea of it was that Chloe had been bullying Marinette for a long time and those years of sustained bullying took its toll on the poor baker girl that made it difficult for her to not only open her heart to people she loves, but have difficulties making friends in general until Alya came along. Yeah, Chloe doesn't look good in this case either, but it would've been more reasonable and would probably resonate with a lot more people who probably had to deal with bullies messing with them for a long time because these effects usually aren't instant. They get built on for a long time and it can really mess up their perception on things.

I think a good story would've been Marinette having to heal from that sustained trauma and while it is difficult since nobody can just quickly heal from trauma, it'd be a good journey for Marinette to be able to open up again with Alya and Adrien being just the first two pieces Marinette needs for her recovery.

But now, instead of all that, it turns out Chloe just pulled a prank that just unleashed a cavalcade of trauma on Marinette all at once that is hyper-specific to how she handles her crush that Adrien and ONLY Adrien can heal. All the while, it turns out that the prank was actually pulled by a guy who I really thought was just kinda fun and cool, but now I can't talk about him in the same way again because he's been thrown under the bus for the sake of this nonsense plot that's difficult not to call a full-on retcon. Do you know what I can call a retcon, though? Or rather who?

I am sorry to all of the people who are probably stanning Socqueline right now, but I CAN'T vibe with her. I'm not saying you're not allowed to like her either, because that would be dumb, but I DON'T like how she was presented in Derision. First off, to get this out of the way, we're no strangers to characters being introduced out of nowhere. Felix and Zoe are both characters that come to mind. The thing is you can at least explain their respective absences easily. Felix had likely been distant from Adrien for a long time with him only coming in out of obligation with Amelie. Zoe is actually even more easy to explain given that she was shoved into a boarding school by Audrey and wouldn't really be able to connect with any of the characters until she was forced to transfer. Socqueline, however, does not have that luxury and cannot be easily explained away not only with how we found her, but for the fact that there was NO hint to her existing until Season 5 and that is inexcusable given how much importance this character now has. To put it in perspective, this is how we are introduced to Socqueline in Jubilation:

Marinette: That fake Ladybug from this morning, I think it was Socqueline, a school friend from last year. Knowing her, I’m sure she means well. But I have to convince her to stop putting herself in danger like that.

That's it. She just calls her a school friend. Yes, it's clear that she's at least important enough for Marinette to remember her name, she was just called a school friend. At the very least, she did have an interesting story with her trying to be Ladybug in order to help people. Of course, she had to be talked out of it because it's causing issues with the real Ladybug, but it's a decent story and Socqueline had only made a few appearances here and there.

And then Derision.

Yes, Socqueline referred to Chloe as "that monster", so it's clear that they planned her to have something against Chloe since her first appearance. However, Derision showed us that Socqueline wasn't just a school friend. She was Marinette's closest confidant in the school years prior to the start of the series. She actively protects Marinette from bullies, particularly Chloe, and was clearly a huge inspiration for her until Chloe got her suspended from school.

First off, in case I haven't made it clear, we haven't seen Socqueline AT ALL until Season 5. Not even a hint to her existence. So given how significant she was made out to be in Derision, WHY HASN'T SHE MADE ANY APPEARANCES IN THE SERIES BEFOREHAND?! She doesn't even have the excuse of being outside of Paris like Felix and Zoe do because she's STILL there and in an arts and crafts store no less, which probably would've been a great place for Marinette to hang out in with her friends if the writers thought this through. But they didn't and Socqueline's debut comes off as severely jarring because we have this character who was really important to Marinette's life just not show up until she started cosplaying as Ladybug.

Secondly, it muddles Marinette's own backstory as well as severely hampering the significance of Alya. Now instead of being alone with nobody to help her against Chloe, which makes her friendship with Alya all the more stronger, Marinette just had this super cool friend who was always there for her until mean ol' Chloe got her kicked out of school. Doesn't that sound like something you'd see in a fanfic, specifically one that's salting Alya given how Socqueline was depicted as Marinette's BFF?

Thirdly, if Chloe was able to get Socqueline suspended so easily, then why hadn't she been able to do that with the other students? Yeah, she got close with Alya, but that didn't stick. If Chloe really had the ability to just make students disappear even if it happened once, she would NOT hesitate to try and do this again with any other student who slighted her, ESPECIALLY Marinette. But she doesn't. Once her attempt on Alya failed, she didn't try again. Hell, LILA had more attempts to get Marinette kicked out of school than Chloe did and actually got closer to doing it than Chloe would ever get, which is weird since she doesn't have the title of "Mayor's Daughter" to throw around like Chloe would. This just feels like something done to explain away why Socqueline didn't show up in the series which doesn't work because she's STILL IN PARIS and I'm pretty sure Marinette would be more than happy to meet with Socqueline given how close they were, but that never happened.

Fourthly, I'm guessing nobody felt like pointing it out because it felt too obvious, but doesn't Socqueline just come off as the writer's answer to Bridgette? You know, the older Marinette based on the anime PV that some fan writers implement into their own stories? Yeah, she's not one-to-one similar to Marinette like Bridgette is, but it definitely feels like another instance of the writers pulling stuff out of fanon just to put a canon spin on it. And like all the other instances, it's a bad spin.

Lastly, this whole incident with the prank and Socqueline's suspension took place a few months before Origins. Not even a year at the earliest. It was specifically stated that Socqueline was suspended three weeks before the end of the school year. Given how close that time gap, the way everyone behaves in Origins makes almost no sense. Marinette would be a lot more horrified of Chloe if Derision was anything to go by and Chloe would be more willing to try and cast Alya out so Marinette doesn't have any allies given that Derision showed Chloe REALLY wanting to make sure nobody helps Marinette. The only point I could even give any leeway to is Kim and even then, again, he's not that much of a douche in Origins as he was in Derision. So, really, it all just comes off as a blatant retcon specifically to try and explain the new direction the writers are taking with certain characters. And do you want to know the dumbest thing? Apparently, Socqueline was such an inspiration to Marinette that the latter changed her hair to be more like Socqueline's.

No, seriously. That's also how they explain why Marinette has different hairstyles. I know Expository Hairstyle Changes are a thing in fiction, but this is just awkward as hell given how traumatic and melodramatic the whole thing is. You don't need to say that Marinette's hairstyle came from someone who she considered a hero because nothing about Marinette indicated that her hairstyle is important. This isn't like Josuke changing his hairstyle to be based on the man who saved him as a child. It's a purely cosmetic change that's suddenly given a shit-ton of significance because now it's connected to this horribly traumatic incident. In fact, you know what this reminds me of?

Actually, the whole segment where this Linkara clip came from seems to sum up a lot of things wrong with Derision. It's not just bad because it makes some characters look bad or introduces stuff out of nowhere. It's bad because now everything in the flashback is now part of all of the characters! Every prior episode will now have to be viewed with a lens tinted by the events of this episode. Now nobody can discuss Kim without people salting on him for the prank, now nobody can talk about how important Alya's friendship with Marinette because of Socqueline's sudden boost in significance (In fact, it's very likely that Alya salters will try to use Socqueline as a replacement friend), and now nobody can speculate the intrigue of Marinette's past because EVERYTHING about her behavior is linked to this specific incident and nothing else. That's what pisses me off about this episode. That's why I share that Double D meme so frequently. I could care less about how much of a monster Chloe was depicted to be in this episode, but I am going to complain when other characters are butchered in the process. I will complain about one thing concerning her, though.

Isn't it amazing that you can tell the writers are trying DESPERATELY to squish any and all positive interpretations of Chloe, even trying to downplay parental neglect because "this character also didn't have a mom and they didn't turn out this way" even though Mylene's and Chloe's situations are still VASTLY different? You can make the argument that Audrey's absence doesn't excuse Chloe's actions. In fact, I don't think it really does either, but saying that there's only one valid response to an absent parent is EXTREMELY insensitive to people who might be going through similar situations.

Oh, and to cap this all off? This is the favorite episode of one of the main writers. Said writer possibly being considered to be the new director for Season 6 of Miraculous and onwards. I'm not gonna name which one for obvious reasons, but it's been confirmed.

I feel like this is a good indication that you need to hop off this series.

[purrincess-chat]

Okay, listen, I find the distribution of LS sides data to be interesting, and major major props to the OP for spending the time doing it. I mentioned back when the OP did s1 that I understand the metric they used in measuring bc it's unarguable screentime, even if I personally consider a lot of moments where the two aren't together to be for one ship or another (particularly for Adrinette when a majority of the time in earlier seasons Marinette spends probably more time plotting schemes to get with him than actually interacting with him, which would have added to their screentime, in my opinion), but I respect the OP's decision on doing it the way they did. That being said, I'm not going to lie, I laughed pretty hard after the s5 measurements. You're telling me that LN stans lost their absolute damn minds and screamed from the rooftops about how Adrinette stans were "gaslighting" (🙄) them when we said that LN wasn't being shafted that season and "buhh LN is dead where's LN??? I miss them" All of that over a 14% drop in screentime? And they still had THE MOST screentime out of all sides that season?????

I don't know that I can ever take a LN stan seriously again, I'm sorry. I already don't take people who fight about the sides like they're 4 different ships seriously bc as I have said numerous times and will say numerous times again, they are the same damn people. But so long as there are clowns dressing up and showing off for the fandom, I will be here shaking my head at how absolutely absurd they are.

Anyway, all of the respect in the world for the person who did that, you mad lad, you legend, you absolute beast. Please take a damn nap, you've earned it 🤣

[mlbigbang]

2022 Rare Pair Fic Rec List

It's the end of the year which means it's finally time for the ML Big Bang's yearly fic rec lists! We're really excited to bring you our contributors' favourite fics started this year to supply you with plenty of reading material while you're waiting for the Big Bang fics' publication in January.

Alya/Nino

Strangely Familiar by @sunfoxfic 79,676 words, Teen, 30/30 chapters

Alya Césaire’s life is perfect. Indeed, between the success of the Ladyblog, how well she’s doing in school, and the fact that she’s a superhero who has never bore the weight of a crisis of epic proportions, her life almost couldn’t be better. Almost. But Alya has always been a go-getter, and so she’ll chase after that perfect life if it kills her. Which is how she ends up rushing to move out of her father’s apartment and in with Marinette, Adrien, and a complete stranger: Nino Lahiffe. And in fact, her life does seem perfect — she and Nino are fast friends. They spend a lot of time together and get to know each other really well. But in the end, fortunate situations will bear unfortunate truths, and she learns things about herself that aren’t quite comfortable. Like I said, though: Alya has always been a go-getter, and she won’t let new feelings deter her from chasing after her perfect life.

"DJWifi centric with great Core 4 dynamics as well, really interesting Nino & Alya characterisation and interactions and identity shenanigans and aaaahhhhh"

Trust your instincts by @ultrakart 2,380 words, General, 1/1 chapter

Alya has the instincts of a fox. Nino finds it hilarious.

"Funny animal instincts DJWifi fic. Perfect :D"

Laughing at her Laughter by @sunfoxfic 634 words, General, 2/2 chapters

Now that Nino knows Alya has the Fox Miraculous permanently, they're able to try something they always wanted to do: Switch Miraculous. For one of them, at least.

"A very sweet kwami-swap! AND it has beautiful bonus art!"

Pigs and Purposes by @azuriteartist 863 words, General, 1/1 chapter

Nino and Alya discuss responsibility and sacrifice.

"We stan kwami swaps so much and this conveys so much with so little."

Adrien/Nino

in which Adrien braids his boyfriends hair by @ck2k18 986 words, General, 1/1 chapter

"I could do your hair for you,” Adrien offered. “I-if you wanted.” Nino turned to look at him. “You want to cut my hair?” Adrien shook his head. “Not exactly. I mean, I could try but I don’t think you want me to, unless you want to end up bald,” he joked. “I was thinking I could braid it.”

"Adrinino is so good and it's so sweet!!! I love a good ole hair doing fic!!! (especially when there's talk of future kids!)"

Marinette/Alya

Is it chill that you're in my head? by @bring-the-storm 8,217 words, Teen, 1/1 chapter

Alya stared at the picture plastered across the homepage of every single tabloid and news site, whispering every curse she could think of under her breath. SHOCKING SECRET ROMANCE BETWEEN LADYBLOGGER AND PARISIAN SUPERVILLAIN REVEALED!!! the headline announced, casually shouting the words she had been dreading for all of Paris to read. --- Alya had always assumed that someday Paris would discover that she had secretly been kissing their most wanted vigilante, but she had never thought it would happen so soon. As the domino effects of her relationship with Ladybug go spiraling through her life, Alya turns her sights towards the one responsible: the elusive superhero Hawkmoth. AKA Someone outs Alya and her girlfriend so she retaliates by deciding to take down Hawkmoth 

"A very enjoyable read! As the tags say, it's basically an episode of a show; it's a bit funny, a bit plotty, a bit shippy. A very clever story!"

Marinette/Kagami

We Don't Need Roses by @coffeebanana 5,308 words, Teen, 1/1 chapter

Kagami’s days at the tattoo shop have gotten a lot more exciting since the flower shop opened up next door, bringing Marinette into her life. But no matter how close the two seem to be growing, Kagami can’t help but notice that something is holding Marinette back.

"Marigami. Mainly fluffy, but there's some angst that really rounds it out. Tattoo parlor/flower shop AU. What I liked most about it was the characters backstories, especially Marinette. Also Kagami is a useless lesbian."

Marinette/Chloé

the memories that you went and tossed away by @sunfoxfic 4,965 words, Teen, 1/1 chapter

Marinette Dupain-Cheng suffered from an accident that caused amnesia. Now that lycée has started, she's back in school, and Chloé is trying to make sense of her own problems, but Dupain-Cheng keeps getting in the way, and she can't figure out why. It's fine; everything's fine.

"An angsty, one-sided crush story that is satisfying and enjoyable, even without a happy ending. It is very well written!"

Alya/Kagami

darling (the composer has stepped into fire) by @theladyfae 1158 words, General, 1/1 chapter

Kagami likes Alya. She still isn't sure whether Alya likes her or not. This is a problem, when Alya's mere presence flusters her more than it should.

"READ FOR EXQUISITE GAY PINING"

Adrien/Lila

A Little White Lie by generalluxun 1,199 words, General, 1/1 chapter

A nervous Lila Rossi shows Adrien her room, and things take an unexpected turn.

"Wonderfully written and deeply emotional, the way you can expect from his fics. Short, with a twist that hits hard for maximum impact. A must-read for all of us who don't like Lila."

Luka/Chloé

broken guitar (with a little c minor sting) by noirshitsuji 2,175 words, Teen, 1/1 chapter

For the White Elephant Exchange at the Miraculous Writer's Guild: Give the LB and CN miraculouses to two characters (who aren't Marinette and Adrien). *** “Has nobody ever warned you about adopting strays, Couffaine?”

"The dynamic of Luka and Chloe in this is tasty and I have grown to be extremely fond of the writer's particular style. They're very good at subtext and insinuation and nuance."

Luka & Marc (QPR)

just wanna stay for the night by @asadweeghostie 246 words, General, 1/1 chapter

He keeps trying to not touch them, like little love notes as he eyes his favourite one. Lyrics about love and friendship written next to his keyed notes.

"There's something about this fic that always feels like home to me. I'm aware that this is a queerplatonic relationship, but the way it's written and how it's talked about brings up the possibility for a future romantic relationship, so I feel that maybe it's more fitting here. This author is one of my favorites; the way they write and express relationships is so endearing."

NSFW works

Félix/Kagami

Blood Will Tell by @sunfoxfic 30,352 words, Mature, 11/11 chapters

Kagami Tsurugi is pregnant. More precisely, Kagami Tsurugi is pregnant and Félix Fathom is the father. After spending months as "friends with benefits," neither knows what to do, and both are panicking in their own emotionally suppressed ways. And as the worst happens — both in their heads and at their hands — they uncover more than they thought they could handle; but the story is not over, and what doesn't kill Kagami only makes her freakishly motivated to be better tomorrow.

"A raw fic that is exploring accidental teenage pregnancy and all that comes with it. It is gently but realistically showing the often-glossed over discussions about abortion, while not straying too dark and being very "readable". The prose is gorgeous as well!! Chlonette: An angsty, one-sided crush story that is satisfying and enjoyable, even without a happy ending. It is very well written!"

Luka/Adrien

I've Got Friends on the Other Side by @inkmousey 6,796 words, Explicit, 1/1 chapter

Father Luka only tries his best to be a devout servent of The Lord. Adrien, a Succubus, wants to see Father Luka on his knees saying his name like a prayer instead.

"I love subverting expectations and this fic does it more than once!!!"

charge de fin de soirée by @leafweaverryn 5,627 words, Explicit, 1/1 chapter

During a late night patrol, Chat Noir finds Luka at a laundromat working on washing everything he's got. The hero takes the opportunity to air out some dirty laundry of his own…

"Such an amazing and thrilling Lukadrien fic!"

[spif-lol]

If there's one ladrien stan, it's me. If there's no ladrien stans I have died. Watched a video about how boring Ladrien is compared to marichat and I don't agree at all. I guess maybe if you're only looking at the romantic aspects of it, which I would argue are interesting, but perhaps lesser so than the other sides of the square. But scenes with ladybug and adrien in them are always some of my favourite, because I'm always trying to see those scenes from each other's perspectives. It wouldn't be satisfying if they ended up as a couple, but to get insight into how they view each other would be so good. There's the obvious layers to it, that they are both public figures and they assume the other reacts the way they do to each other because of that fame. But in the individual scenes, it's crazy.

Their first meeting, in the Mime, it's fine, straightforward, Ladybug stops short midsentence when he rolls the window down and stares wordlessly back at her. Neither probably thought much of that interaction, and were simply wrapped up in their own feelings.

Then in Simon Says they have their first proper interaction. Ladybug travels with Adrien and Nino to the Agreste mansion in order to protect his dad from the villain, and Ladybug and Adrien have a brief heart to heart in Adrien's room. People give these two a lot of shit for the way they blush and stammer and generally have a surface level relationship, but I've always loved the way the two start that scene all gooey for each other and then quickly sober up and talk to each other really naturally. I honestly really love the professionalism in this relationship - sure they can't have the friendship potential of any of the other sides of the square but the respect they have for each other is so important.

One thing people don't acknowledge enough is how much Marinette learns about Adrien simply through being Ladybug. They treat each other different in these forms, yes, they maybe see each other in an idealised manner but of all sides of the square this is the one where Adrien is the most vulnerable and open about his life, relationship with his mother, fear of being locked up. It isn't until the end of Season 4 that Marinette herself is told anything of the sort by him, and DESPITE the strengths of marichat, one issue with it is that Chat can't tell her anything personal, because his identity's a secret. Adrien with Ladybug is not the same, aside from obviously not letting her know he's Chat Noir.

In Riposte, instead of making up an answer to explain why he left his hiding spot (so he could fight as Chat Noir), Adrien gives Ladybug an earnest half truth, and tells her he hates being locked up, which we later see in Sandboy to be his greatest nightmare. We already know that Adrien as Chat Noir wears his heart on his sleeve, but in his civillian form to Ladybug he's arguably even more so. His identity reveal in one of the timelines in Desperada is as Adrien, and his fantasy of suggesting he and Ladybug run away together is as Adrien too.

In relation to this, one of the things I love most about Ladrien is that it humanizes Adrien for Marinette in a big way. He is vulnerable and thoughtful around Ladybug, often the damsel in distress. And Adrien gets to see Ladybug knocked off her pedestal around him, in Santa Claws (my beloathed), in Volpina and elsewhere, he calls her out for acting decidedly unheroic, in a way she often does when she is obsessing over him. He doesn't understand why, and this causes him a lot more pause for thought than when she brushes him off as Chat Noir.

That's what it is, that's the heart of why I love Ladrien. The intrigue. The way their relationship must drive each other crazy. They don't know the other is in love with them, they just know that as two vaguely famous strangers they have a special bond. They don't have a natural build up of friendship like Marichat, but instead intense dramatic moments that build up with each season. Him trusting her to save him in Gorizilla, her insistence that he use the Snake miraculous in Deperada. From Ladybug's perspective, why would Adrien fight so hard and not give up after a few tries? He says that all he cared about was saving her. That's insane. Even with the aesop of the episode - that she is choosing Adrien despite Luka being the obvious choice - the reliance they have on each other is heartwarming. Sad that she has romance goggles on in this ep and treats Chat as lesser, but ultimately they both learn a lot in this episode, and actually have a foundation for a relationship from here on out.

A few people have pointed out that when she gives 'Adrien' the dog miraculous in Risk/Strikeback a) yeah there's a bit of romance goggles at play but actually she is being pretty smart here in choosing him as someone she TRUSTS and isn't under the effect of Risk and b) while the actual thing gets undercut by us as the audience knowing that it's actually Felix and having to watch Chat Noir feel snubbed yet again (he got done so dirty in Season 4 pls protect my boy) it's so so so sweet how she treats 'Adrien' in this episode, knowing that she knows he struggled in Desperada and encouraging him now that he has another miraculous to wield. Ladybug and Chat Noir as a duo may have been shunted to the side, but Ladybug is so good as a team mum in that season. She cares about Adrien so deeply and will do anything to make him feel better (she doesn't realise Chat needs the same support until it's too late, but her trusting him with the bunny in Season 5 does show that she learns her lesson).

And what a lesson it is to learn! One of the most iconic Ladrien scenes occurs at the end of Strikeback, as a casual miraculous handover turns into Adrien and Ladybug sharing one of the MOST INTENSE scenes in the series. Ladybug realising she was tricked, and having every reason not to trust Adrien in this scene, but trusting him anyway. Being snapped out of a panic attack by his insistent kindness, and detransforming to begin the hard road ahead of her. Everything changes after this scene, and it would be enough for me even if we never got any Ladrien again.

But of course we do, in Deflagration, the scene that prompted me to write this post because I'm OBSESSED WITH IT. Marinette's class all fighting Hawkmoth as civilians, and Marinette in her ladybug disguise, pulling off her plan with their help, fighting Hawkmoth hand to hand to get her earrings back. Failing, always just out of reach. Until Adrien acts decisively, running forward and taking the earrings in one fluid motion, as only one who has been fighting alongside Ladybug defeating akuma after akuma can. The scene focusses on Hawkmoth's horror at the fact that his son has defeated him, and Adrien's cold, cruel expression as he stares at the man who has caused so much destruction and suffering to everyone he knows. But what is Ladybug thinking in this scene? Leaving aside that she's just gotten into a relationship with this man due to his sheer defiance in standing up to her and getting her to admit her feelings. Ignoring the part earlier in the episode where she wonders sadly where Chat Noir is, and hopes he's okay. Is she surprised by the effortless way in which he disarms Monarch? Or has their relationship thus far taught her that Adrien Agreste is a force of kindness and ruthlessness?

The professionalism kicks in. "Thank you comrade!" she says with a salute and runs off to transform and get the job done, defeat Monarch. She has no idea that that was Chat Noir. No idea that that was Gabriel Agreste they just fought. Nothing but sheer thankfulness that the Resistance made up of her friends and classmates, with whom they wouldn't have won, embodied by Adrien.

Ladrien my beloved.

In short, it may be an underloved ship, but I will always adore the nuances of their relationship, and the way it opens up new dynamics to the love square and the fight against Monarch.

[stardust-blossom]

Rating ships (part 3)

Lukadrien: I never liked the ship because of the lack of interaction between the characters. They seemed more like  acquaintances to me rather than friends. Another thing, Lukadrien is a ship which is largely used by the fandom just to spite and  express their hate on Marinette. I hate it when people use ships to salt and bash marinette

-----------------------------------------

Marigami: I actually like this ship! This is another Marinette ship I like. When I got in this ship, i started to immediately like it! It's a good ship and I don't have any problems with it at all. I'm fine with Marigami

-----------------------------------------

Lukzoe: No.

Just.

no.

Ok let me just place my cents here:

Both of them barely have any chemistry.

It's not a bad ship, but it's basically Lukagami all over again! (Basically shipping Luka with someone else so that he's not a threat to the L//////S)

People only ship them because they have the same aesthetics

Most (Not all) of these lukzoe shippers are basically L//////S stans who r suddenly pitying him and are shipping him of with dietnette thinking that "He'Ll Be HaPpY wItH zOe WhIlE NoT WoRrYiNg AbOuT MaRiNeTtE" 🙄 (Dietnette=Diet marinette=Zoe Lee)

-----------------------------------------

Conclusion

Lukadrien and Lukzoe are good ships, the only problem i have with the former is that, it's used to bash a character, and the latter is just a boring ship (These r my opinions, u don't have to agree with me)

-----------------------------------------

[ilikekidsshows]

I'm that evidence anon and I must say they did came at me back in twitter even though all the things I said was a fact and can be checked if they want to rewatch the episodes lmao. They said Adrien did all that feat was just to add dramatic or hilarity effect and while I can also say the same with Marinette and her sack of flour, I don't have the courage to say more because people are easily flipped when their headcanon doesn't fit their the canon and that is my first and last interaction with mltwt. It's traumatic enough to be attacked over a fact, salute to you mate to be able to handle it better than me. *hats off*

This is the logical fallacy of the Over the Top Marinette Stans. The show is a girl power show where Marinette consistently gets to be cool and correct, but it's still not enough to the most enthusiastic of her fans. She has to be the coolest and most correct constantly, all the time, and anything that contradicts that is "hate" or a "misunderstanding", even when it's literally things that happen in the actual show.

They'll come up with all these excuses for why the literal facts of what we can see in the show should be ignored because the version of the show and character inside their head is the one they formed an emotional attachment to. They also have to convince others it's the actual canon instead of something they invented.

Like, instead of calling me a spoilsport and saying they'll keep headcanoning Marinette as buff anyway (fully respectable, headcanons can be whatever you want them to be), one Stan said I was "denying different body type representation", therefore implying that they think buff Marinette is actual canon. As in, they think Marinette canonically has a body type other than Miraculous' usual petite/twiggy arms, when you can look at any screenshot of the show to see that she doesn't.

Some Over the Top Marinette Stans have evolved away from character assassination of characters other than Marinette, but the denying of reality is still the same Saltfic level of nonsense. And I think that's something that's important to remember, that the new breed of OtT Marinette Stans is still related to the Saltfic crowd and I just don't want to poke that hornets' nest too much.

[blckwhtepersona]

I was pretty unimpressed with the actual show, but I started reading early fandom fanfic between our watching sessions and that kept me interested enough to keep watching.

This was sort of me. Except I was a bubble-headed young thing (13-15?) who watched Season 1, read lots of fanfic, and merged the fanfic MLB cast with the canon, so I had some serious rose-tinted glasses slapped on from reading fanfic that actually put them in a decent light.

My first introduction to the show was a friend showing me the episode "Horrificator", already halfway through, so I basically missed the first half and ended up in the second half, where I saw a cool-looking monster with an interesting superpower, and two teenage superheroes that—at the end—were one person pining after the other. (I didn't know about Adrien's crush on Ladybug until later.)

So, what made me like the show was the love square, because it was the first time I'd ever seen anything like it—two secret-identity superheroes, with feelings for each other but they don't know it, and I was super excited to see how that dynamic developed. And thanks to fanfic, I was basically feeding that fantasy with so many fictional scenarios that only got me more hyped.

For me, Season 1 was the best season of the entire show, probably because the drama was low-stakes and there wasn't too much lore—basically your classic "Season 1 is the intro, Season 2 is when the story develops further". Aside from the "I have his entire schedule" thing, I didn't get any red flags off of her, and Adrien also received decent screentime to explore him and his feelings.

"Gamer" and "Stormy Weather" are probably my favorite episodes. In "Gamer", I enjoyed how Marinette and Adrien interacted, and it showed that once Marinette and Adrien had more time together, she was able to get comfortable and talk to him like a normal person. It was basically fanfic Adrienette merging with canon Adrienette, and I was all for it.

As for "Stormy Weather", besides the top-tier animation and lighting, I loved how Ladybug and Cat Noir's dynamic was like. They worked great together, didn't need too many words to understand each other, and both had their chances to shine. It wasn't all about Ladybug.

I had dropped off watching the show from that because Season 2 hadn't come out yet, and even if it did, I didn't know it because I didn't have dependable internet at the time. By the time I got back into MLB, it had 3 seasons, and I was still thinking of Season 1. Even then, I saw only a few episodes of Season 2, like "Anansi", "Queen Wasp", "Malediktator", and "Sapotis", but I wasn't too mad about it. (Also, sidenote, when I first learned of Lukanette and Adrigami, I was PISSED because I was still Adrienette endgame; now, Adrienette makes me sick.)

My initial gripes about Season 2 and Season 3 weren't major at first. It was more or less just over unnecessary drama between Ladybug and Cat Noir and too much of people stanning Ladybug. But Season 4 was when I began actively hating MLB, for reasons stated already by so many people here.

And then Season 5..... well, I already had no hope for the show at that point, but I was still disappointed.

Silver lining though, MLB pretty much inspired my OC fanfic to improve the show, so there's that! 😃

Tell me, what did you think of ML when you first discovered it? I thought Chloe's arc in season 2 was decent for this type of show, even if it could have been better. I also never took Marinette's obsessive behavior over Adrien that seriously until it started getting really grating.

My first interaction with ML consisted of me looking for kids shows to watch in Spanish, finding Miraculous on Netflix, watching maybe three minutes of The Bubbler, and then turning the show off because it didn't seem very good. That's the episode that starts with Marinette freaking out about giving Adrien a birthday present and it gave me the impression that Miraculous was doing the classic female-protagonist-pines-for-the-male-protagonist-who-barely-even-knows-her-name trope, which is not a trope that I'm into. I'm way too ace for that shit. This is the scene in question as I looked it up to make sure I was remembering it correctly:

Marinette: Ah! (she stops right in front of Adrien.) Um, he-- Hey! (she gets nervous as she holds her gift behind her back.) Adrien:(surprised, shyly) Hey. Chloé:(as she watches what's happening outside) Wait! Am I seeing what I think I'm seeing? Don't tell me it's Adrien's birthday?! Sabrina:(checks her tablet, gets surprised, and makes excusing noises while smiling sheepishly.) Chloé:(facepalms) Ugh, do I have to do everything myself? Seriously, what are you good for? (walks toward Adrien.) Marinette:(nervously) I, uh, I wanted to, umm, gift you a make-– I mean, gift you a give I made-- I mean... Chloé:(yawns while Marinette is talking and then shoves her away) Out of the way. (she acts sweet.) Happy birthday, Adrien! (throws herself onto him and gives him a kiss on the cheek.) Mwah! Adrien:(surprised) Yeah, thanks Chlo.

This backs up my vague memory that my initial assumption was that Adrien and Chloé were friends while Adrien didn't know who Marinette was because he was clearly much more comfortable with Chloé. Same goes for Nino who was talking to Adrien earlier in this scene.

I'm not sure when this first watch occurred, but I know it was at least a year before I revisited the show. I made a friend in another fandom and that friend was transitioning out of Miraculous, but they had a lot of really good Miraculous fanart and even some fanfic which got me curious as I couldn't understand why anyone would be into the show given my dismal initial impression.

On this friend's recommendation, my SO and I started watching Miraculous an episode or two at a time. I was pretty unimpressed with the actual show, but I started reading early fandom fanfic between our watching sessions and that kept me interested enough to keep watching. My initial impression of the show didn't really change until we watched Origins. That's the episode that really made me fall in love with the canon characters as it took everything about the show and elevated it. The crushes had depth! The Chloé/Adrien thing wasn't just the bitchy rich girl going after the popular boy! Gabriel was confirmed to be the big bad! Things were suddenly going places and that honestly wasn't surprising.

It's incredibly common for kids shows to have lackluster first seasons where they don't really commit to anything major re plot because they're just testing the waters to see if they'll be green lit for more seasons. Because of this, I was under the impression that Origins must have been when they got green lit and season two was going to do the standard kids show thing where they really get to dive into the plot and characters in a big way now that they're making money. This assumption was backed up by the addition of the new heroes to the show's intro.

For the first half of season two, I was invested as it seemed like we were finally getting seasonal arcs. Chloé seemed to be getting set up for some sort of character arc, which I was all for as I enjoy a good mean girl arc. We also had some tension brewing between our heroes with Fu favoring Marinette, a dynamic that felt more accidental than planned since it only happened because Marinette found the grimoire at the end of season one. I thought all of that was going to come to a head with Chloé's Queen Bee debut as things had seemingly been set up for Chloé to be Adrien's pick for a Miraculous.

Then Queen Bee actually happened and my excitement quickly faded. I still cannot think of a less interesting way for Chloé to get and use the bee. No one gives it to her and she outs herself on national television right away? Talk about wasting an idea. Clearly this had just been a one-off thing done so that the show could drive up hype for season two based on promo images of Chloé as a hero.

But it wasn't a one off thing. For some reason, they kept bringing Queen Bee back and that's when I knew we were in for a bad time because that should have never happened. It especially shouldn't have happened when Marinette was giving out the miraculous. I could maybe see a setup where Adrien gives Chloé a second chance, but Marinette trusting Chloé made no sense:

Marinette: I must choose someone who's not impressed by people in power. Who can help me trap Malediktator. Huh?! Of course! That's it. (reaches for the Miraculous of the Bee) Wait, what am I thinking? (facepalms)

Yeah, what are you thinking? Alya was your first choice for the bee, she isn't impressed by people in power, and she wasn't hit by Malediktator, so go grab her! Why would you pick Chloé?

Long story short, I kept watching because the show wasn't terrible, my SO enjoyed hearing me dunk on it as we watched it, and I was really enjoying the fan content, but I didn't have much faith in canon after the midpoint of season two and I continually lost faith as the seasons progressed. I never pictured it getting as bad as seasons five, but I only had hopes for Miraculous to be truly good for about 2 weeks as that's how long it took us to get from Origins to the Queen Bee mess. I was also disappointed by Alya and Nino's hero journeys. I expected them to be chosen for grander reasons. As is, it felt like they only got recruited because their loved ones were in danger.

Since you brought up Marinette's crush, I'll end by saying that I have never been a fan of that style of crush-based humor (once again, way too ace for that shit), but it didn't bother me in a serious way because it was very obviously meant to be humorous. I just suffered through the jokes when they happened and then moved on as there was no reason to dwell on them. It probably helped that I was reading a lot of fanfic and even the people who love the show generally agree that Marinette's crush should be played down in more serious stories.

The only time Marinette's crush bothered me was Derision as that episode straight up destroyed her character. It also made the writers look awful because they made Kim the bad guy for laughing at Marinette's behavior, but we'd just spent over four seasons being told Marinette's behavior was a joke, so what is the lesson here? Are we all supposed to feel guilty for laughing at a trauma response we didn't know was a trauma response? Are the writers saying that trauma is funny? How can you be so tone deaf?

[purrincess-chat]

Lord, I'm tired of "which ship is better" between the LS dynamics. They're the same people.

I was never a huge LS shipper. I was always either indifferent at best and annoyed at the decisions they made at most because some stuff would be done so much easier if either character took more incentive. Like, a lot of it is explained away as plot decisions, but thats neither here nor there.

I think the reason why people think it was a bad idea that Adrienette was paired now was because it feels too rushed... No, it wasn't. It feels rushed to you because all you saw was the stumbling on the words and longing stares. I guess in these people's eyes, they didn't hang out platonically enough.

I'm still indifferent to the LS in general. I find the Adrienette scenes cute, but arguing over which dynamic is best is just pointless blowing of air. Just write something if you're not happy with how something's going in the show.

You probably get asks like this all the time, so I apologize if this is kinda redundant, I just see the salt everywhere and it's just aggravating

No worries. It's valid to be frustrated with the fandom. I've always found arguments over which side is better to be moot because one side isn't better. Which side people like more is a matter of preference, but in the end, they're the same two people, so no side is intrinsically better or worse than another. It's reductive to think of the square that way, and it misses the point behind the square. I think of all the MC stans that like to post rankings of each side in the ladrien tag, and they always rank ladrien last for being boring or toxic or whatever. I think ranking them is dumb. Have a favorite, sure, but don't put down the other sides that makes no sense lol.

In the case of Adrinette "not being close friends" I'd agree, it's fundamentally misunderstanding their canon interactions. It gives the same energy as people who claimed Ladrien is only capable of standing and blushing around each other. Not only is it an intentionally shallow interpretation of their dynamic, it's also directly disproven in canon every time they come on screen. In Adrinette's case, yes, Marinette consistently fumbles around him, but she has always shown to calm down in the face of something serious. In Gorizilla, she runs around with him all day and talks to him normally because they have other shit going on. Her stammering always related to thinking of him romantically, but they have had numerous platonic interactions where she could talk to him fine, and in most of those interactions, Adrien confided in her. His trust of her has been building over each season. S1 we had the umbrella scene when he confessed he didn't have friends, we also had gamer when he expressed insecurity in his ability compared to her. S2 had a bunch, Gorizilla, Frozer, Mayura. He gave a whole fucking speech about how he was happy they were friends in Mayura. S3 we have Chameleon, Puppeteer 2, he stood up for her in Ladybug, he and Kagami begged her to run away with them in Heart Hunter.

He and Marinette have always been friends, and they have been making small strides each season. That's why she went from "just a friend" to "a very good friend" to "someone special to me." Adrien has been giving us check ins on their friendship since day 1. Their development was slower and more gradual than LN, and of course they're not as comfortable with each other as LN, but that's the point of s5. They're working through their issues. They just so happen to be doing it romantically. And to say that their love isn't as deserving because they're not entirely thick as thieves is a very narrow view of love. Just because adrinette isn't the best friends side at the beginning of s5 doesn't mean they don't deserve to be together if they want to be?? I know plenty of people irl who have best friends of the opposite gender that date people they're not as close to instead. The point of dating is to get closer to people, and that's what is happening in canon. Adrien said it himself in Transmission that he wanted things to be different with Marinette. He can't share his true feelings with anyone else because they don't understand and only see a marketing image. And we have seen that this season with people consistently brushing off their feelings in favor of their own ideas. Adrien and Marinette fall back on each other, and have been figuring out how to be an effective couple that meets each others needs. And that's incredibly sweet, and I think it's worth showing. Lots of cartoons paint this idealized version of love and put it up on a pedestal as a prize to be won. I think if this season ended with them revealing their identities and getting together, it would be perpetuating just that. That love is a prize to be won in the end, then after that you live happily ever after. But they stuck adrinette together mid season and are giving us a half season where they bumble around and figure love out. Their story isn't over just because they are together. Relationships are complicated and take work, and I appreciate that message from canon.

I think people are just looking for excuses to justify their anger, so they are twisting their interpretation of canon to suit their needs. It's a very common strategy among salters, I've seen it plenty of times. They find vague at best "evidence" of their claims that ignores tons of context and other instances that disprove their arguments. It's not new to me, honestly. I do actually feel kind of bad for them though. Sitting at home all angry and missing out on the absolute bliss that is romantic Adrinette. What a miserable existence./j

[dizzying-faust]

Me on Twitter seeing an Adrien stan wishing him to be the protagonist

[familyagrestefanblog]

You know what? I don't care, fucking hot take:

Even if Alya were to have known that Lila was lying about some stuff, she had no actual reason to immediately crucify Lila for it the way Marinette stans think she should have just because Marinette said so.

I don't care who doesn't wanna hear it, but the amount of both flimsy and big lies and excuses Alya hears on an almost daily basis coming out of Marinette's mouth is insane. Just because Marinette doesn't like lies being told doesn't it suddenly mean that her own lies don't matter for hypocritical reasons.

Canonly speaking, Marinette too is a liar on a very broad scale and that isn't at all entirely caused by her secret identitiy.

So even IF Alya knew that Lila was indeed lying about some stuff, from Alya's perspective it wouldn't be a reason to go witch-hunting because she's Marinette's best friend and is already used to liars not automatically being bad and malicious people.

By all accounts, from Alya's perspective, Marinette was witch-hunting the new girl for something Marinette herself does all the damn time. All because Lila flirted with Adrien and claimed on the Ladyblog on her first day in Paris that she was already saved by Ladybug and is close friends with her.

Buddy, big fucking whoop.

Alya thought this new girl just came to Paris and isn't even from France, but was apparently supposed to hate her the moment Marinette revealed herself just because Lila lied on her first day on an amateur blog interview about knowing the local heroine because she doesn't know anyone yet and wants attention.

Jesus fucking Christ, is that it? Why should Alya care for that in the long-run? It was one bigger attention seeking lie on Lila's first day (which Alya even profited off of, but that's beside the point) that in the end, for Alya, no one got hurt but Lila herself because Marinette as Ladybug called her ass out. Presuming of course that Marinette at any point voiced at least that much towards her. Which, btw, she didn't. Marinette only said that she followed and overheard Lila and Adrien. That's literally all she told Alya and Nino.

Alya had literally no reason to see anything worse in Lila's lies as in Marinette’s own. Especially not since Marinette never actually voiced anything substantial towards anyone. She didn't even ever tell anyone about what happened in the bathroom. She apparently just expected everyone to get it automatically uploaded in their brains and then the show had Marinette be upset about that not having happened and never let it go again.

In retrospective, 'badly handled' is an extremely nice way to describe this plot line. Adrien had to have an entire character arc on his own with Lila to make up for Marinette never mentioning WHY she deems Lila as dangerous as she does, so he can side with Marinette in season 5 and support her in "proofing the others wrong for siding with her bully".

Even though Marinette never gave anyone the needed information on WHY she thinks it's valid to accuse Lila the way she does.

Seriously, what was the class supposed to think? Adrien and Sabrina were the only ones who got a character arc to make up for Marinette’s aggravating unwillingness to give context for why she disliked Lila so much.

From everyone else's perspective, but here especially Alya's, Lila was there for ONE day in "Volpina", then left for a while without ever having interacted with Marinette Dupain-Cheng (on-screen), but already before she came back in season 3 Marinette was witch-hunting her even when Lila was merely online calling the class. Not even LILA knew in "Caméléon" why Marinette acted the way she did and explicitly said so, then how the shit was anybody else supposed to?

What on earth was Alya supposed to think here besides Marinette acting on jealousy and later on her hating the new girl for telling lies even though Marinette herself constantly tells lies? No shit Alya tried to play both sides! In her eyes, Marinette gave someone a very hard time who very much reminded Alya of her own best friend!

Lots of people talking about Alya salt again (boo! Hiss! Leave her alone, she’s awesome!). In the context of that, I’m seeing discussions of her interview with Lila. Stuff like:

Does she deserve hate for it? (No)

Is it a big deal? (No)

Did she have any way of verifying Lila’s claim that she’s Ladybug’s best friend, especially when Ladybug herself wasn’t saying anything one way or the other? (No)

Did she pretend to her audience that she verified Lila’s claim? (We don’t know, probably no)

Does she normally verify people connected to the (secretive) super heroes? E.g. did she check that she was really interviewing Ladybug and not just her friend Marinette in a costume? Should we expect her to? (No)

Does any of the Alya salt have any basis in reality? (No)

All good and useful questions, but I think after years of debating these points, we’ve all missed the really important one:

What exactly did Lila say during the interview?

The thing is that Lila doesn’t actually know a lot about the stuff she’s making up, and she’d try to use the interview to only talk about herself. I can’t imagine Alya would be very interested in that, and she’d try to steer the conversation back to Ladybug and what she’s like, stuff that Lila knows nothing about.

So my guess is that this interview would end with,

“Very interesting, thank you! That was Lila Rossi, she’s says she’s Ladybug’s best friend, and according to her Ladybug is red with black spots. That’s all we have for you today, stay connected!”

[lnc2]

it's wild because a common (and completely wrong but whatever) critique of ladrien is that all they do is blush around each other and then when we get scenes that are devastating and great it doesn't count because it's not fitting a certain mold?

ladrien is such an interesting side because the whole idea that if they knew they loved each other every other secret unravels is right there. people say they don't have to work for it and that makes the side boring but ephemeral gave us a whole ladrien fic speedrun and the inevitable crash. chat blanc, in the exact same way, started off with ladrien which quickly unraveled everything else.

some of ladybug's lowest or ugliest moments are in front of adrien. and adrien has been unhinged on main in front of ladybug several times- leaping from a building, the 25,000 resets, etc.

furthermore each side does not exist independently of the other and at any point in time i would argue that every scene is a composite of what one or the other believes to be two sides of the square. every marichat scene is also an adrinette scene to adrien while every marichat scene is also a ladynoir scene to marinette.

which is important because all of these experiences combine to create a full picture of the other. it's what we literally see happen in ephemeral when marinette tries to fit together her ideas of adrien and her ideas of chat noir into one person.

so in ephemeral we get a ladynoir/ladrien reveal and then a ladrien/adrinette reveal as the love square crumbles. (although the love square technically dissolves the moment one or the other knows the identity of the other but i digress).

in strike back we see ladybug once again putting trust in adrien and then realizing it wasn't actually adrien and the complete unraveling of everything she worked for that season and adrien not only watches it happen and comforts her, but also helps her strategize through it.

writing off those scenes because they aren't a confession like in glaciator 2 or holding their hands in risk or chat telling her they'll get the miraculous back together in strike back is wild because it doesn't happen without these other pieces informing each other.

the reason we see scenes where marinette and chat noir are talking about their love for other people is because neither of them see the other in that light and it's giving them a glimpse into another side they wouldn't normally see. adrinette we see scenes of them building up that trust that exists already in ladynoir but we also see that reluctance to share that we also see in ladynoir despite the against-all-odds-we'll-get-through-this-partnership they have going on. and in ladrien we see them merging these identities- the romantic aspect, the friendship, the partnership, the trust - in this weird place where ladybug feels like she can be more vulnerable and open, adrien is less guarded than chat but more assertive than he is at school and so eager to please but also willing to call her out– it's like the ground zero for what is happening in the other dynamics.

anyways this is getting away from me blah blah blah all sides are the same side bc they're the same person but we shouldn't be looking for or seeing the same things in their interactions because each interaction serves a different purpose blah blah something something stan ladrien for healthy skin

[sunfoxfic]

The thing I find interesting about this season is that, despite the fact that all of Adrien's relationships have been crumbling since episode 2, his friendship with Marinette is at worst unaffected and at best stronger than ever.

Literally -- Kagami, Chloé, Nino, Ladybug, his father -- everyone who matters to him has abandoned him in some way, shape, or form. Except Marinette. Every time he has significant interaction with Marinette -- Psycomedian, Guiltrip, Sentibubbler, Glaciator 2 -- his relationship with her has only been strengthened.

As far as I can tell, there's no particular reason for this. I don't think it acts in service of his arc, and given how much Marinette's arc this season has been about how unaware she is, it would make sense for their relationship to be slipping away and for her not to realize it. But that's not the case.

They just.... Work. As friends. They're committed. They specifically want not to hurt each other, and will try their hardest to make that happen.

In conclusion: Stan Adrinette <3

[ladyofthenoodle]

Zoe is such a sweet character but she's so overhated. Like yeah she only appeared in three episodes, got a miraculous fairly quickly, is connected to one of the more popular characters and apparently that's enough for her to get called a Mary Sue or boring. When there's Felix who also appeared a grand total of three times, is connected to the deuteragonist and steals a miraculous also quickly. Misogyny, pretty much?

i don't know if i am ready to call it misogyny, since a fairly good portion of the zoe hate is coming from chloe stans. i'm certain there are some people who are more critical of zoe than felix due to a tendency to be more critical towards female characters, but from what i've seen, a lot of the criticism is from people who are very attached to chloe's arc.

there's also a big tendency to attribute complexity and depth to "mean" characters that we don't give to "nice" characters, even when they've been given the same level of attention by the writing. i like to think that's because most of us accept nice as a default and mean as something that needs an explanation, so we assume characters like felix have some hidden depths that explain their actions. now, in felix's case this is very likely true, but nice characters like zoe don't inspire the same level of interest.

that said, zoe is a background character, and so far not one that has added all that much to the show, so i can't really fault people who find her boring. i think she's cute and has potential, but i'm not particularly invested in her and don't spend much time thinking about her unless she's actively onscreen, so i can't really argue that she's a very interesting character.

the mary sue thing is ridiculous though, especially when marinette's also giving miraculous out to people like marc, who haven't really had any screentime either and have had limited onscreen interactions with marinette. and while the show goes through great pains to tell us she's a better person than chloe, at no point are we made to accept that she's better at using the bee miraculous, that she's the best hero ever, that she's super special, etc. she's just a girl that marinette likes and trusts and is competent, while is pretty much the same qualifications for at least half the temporary hero lineup (i'd say a few of them have been shown to be more strongly/uniquely qualified than others at this point, but that's straying a bit off topic). that's pretty far from being a mary sue.

tldr; i agree zoe doesn't deserve as much hate as she gets but i don't feel strongly enough about her to get too worked up about it

[theerurishipper]

Anyway, this person blocked me, but not before reblogging my post one last time. And I'm not going to continue chatting with them about it but I will reply to their last reblog because it's my post and I'm petty like that.

I don't know how you even reach this conclusion goodness you're making up a whole different point now and suddenly me disagreeing with you on how you don't understand her circumstances is me excusing?..ok. I literally said it before she should stop doing it and be held accountable for lying and change her ways cuz she's not gonna be perfect human at the age of 14..what more do you want??? You made this post publicly so expect public disagreement.

I guess me saying that her intentions don't excuse her actions is me reaching an entirely different conclusion. Idk why this person says Marinette should be held accountable and comes to give me all the justifications under the sun when I say the same thing.

Marinette stans ig: She's just a fourteen year old girl, she has good intentions, she was manipulated by Gabriel, stop blaming her!

Also Marinette stans: I'm not excusing her!

And "you made this post publicly so expect disagreement," they say, after they reply to my post, block me and prevent me from being able to respond. Also, I put this in the salt tags. I tagged "ML Salt." I tagged "Marinette Salt." And yet this person chose to come onto a post that wasn't for them, that was clearly not for them and was tagged so that Marinette stans like them wouldn't interact with it, and started an argument with me. And if you're going to start shit on my post, I'm not in the wrong for replying.

And so you admitted you dont care about the context so ur biased in this analysis then and trying to paint this situation as solely her fault when this all leads back to gabriel being their source of pain and suffering from the beginning sherlock. It's so easy to blame a teenage girl over an abuser right??? That's what im getting from ur post.

It's not that hard to be unbiased here because there is clearly one person who is being hurt and another who is actually the one making the mistake. It is not that hard to understand that even if she's lying to make him happy, she's wrong for doing that and it's a really fucked up thing to do. It's not hard to understand that no one is obligated to listen to your reasoning and offer you compassion and understanding when you do things like this. I get why Marinette is doing what she is doing, but I'm not going to downplay her actions and expect her to be forgiven instantly because I feel bad for her or because she had "good intentions" or whatever. She's doing something awful, and her reasonings don't matter to the person she's hurting. Her "good intentions" won't make Adrien hurt less.

I'm not blaming her for Gabriel's abuse. I'm blaming her for siding with him and lying to his son. Even if she didn't mean to, that's what she's doing. Yes, Gabriel is the source of their pain, but that doesn't mean Marinette is blameless. You can be hurt and still hurt other people. I never tried to paint this solely as her fault. I said many times that the main culprit is Gabriel. But Marinette also made mistakes, mistakes that the fandom is ignoring and downplaying, and I am gonna call her out.

Don't use "i lost my hope on the writers" card, adrien is not the only victim here. "The writers neglect adrien's struggles" and You and the fandom always neglected marinette's struggles and trauma you aren't any better. Saying she enjoys off his trauma response is such a gross misunderstanding of her character yikes.

I literally said Marinette is also a victim of bad writing hello?? And no one is downplaying Marinette's trauma. Look at the salt tags and tell me Marinette doesn't have an army of stans that can't admit she did anything wrong. The fandom always focuses on Marinette's struggles. The moment any character does anything that doesn't conform to her wishes, they descend on that character and tear them to shreds. If you weren't around when Chameleon aired, good for you. Adrien doesn't get the same courtesy from this fandom. Even in this situation, everyone is worried about how Marinette will feel and jumps to her defense every time someone says anything negative about her bad actions, but will turn a blind eye to the impact of her actions on Adrien and will ignore his feelings, because all Adrien exists for is to be her trophy. Fuck his character development, right? No one cares about his arc as an abuse victim if it means that Adrienette won't be canon anymore, or if Marinette gets called out for her actions.

And idk why they keep saying that I said Marinette enjoys his pain? I literally said she didn't. I said that she's a good person. Who's reaching entirely different conclusions now?

Anyway, they probably won't see this, but I just needed to say my piece. I'm done now lol.

This is just an unstructured, incoherent vent post, but I've seen a few posts recently about how Adrien would definitely forgive Marinette for keeping secrets from him because he loves her, or that he would blame himself for not noticing what was going on and not her. And those aren't wrong, per se, but this is what I mean by the show taking away Adrien's agency. Ultimately his choices are allowed only as far as they do not inconvenience Marinette or anyone else the narrative cares about, like Felix or Nathalie. Which is why Adrien is not allowed to grow, he is not allowed to prioritize his own feelings and emotional needs. Any wrong done to him is resolved by him putting aside his own feelings to forgive the people who wronged him. And yes, he has been taught that his feelings don't matter by Gabriel and that he should bend over to the whims of everybody around him. And that kind of makes it worse, how the effect of Gabriel's abuse is used to convenience everyone around him. I think it's gross.

Just look at the Ladynoir conflict from Season 4. Adrien brings up his grievances with Ladybug's treatment of him a few times, but ultimately, he ends up putting it aside to focus on her emotional needs when she is at her lowest. Kuro Neko gave us the message that it wasn't that Ladybug was treating Chat Noir unfairly, but that Chat Noir should stop expecting to be treated with respect and should stop having emotional needs. And at the end of Strikeback, nothing is resolved, Ladybug hasn't apologized to him or resolved to do better by him, but he still shows up to her side to comfort her. No, she didn't apologize to him. She admitted her mistakes but did little to correct them even after the fact. That whole arc ended with Chat Noir being treated poorly over and over, and yet coming back to Ladybug's side because he's such a good partner and he loves her so much.

And Adrien, a character who has been forced his whole life to bend to the whims of others to please them at his expense is doing the same thing to Ladybug. Adrien exhibiting this behavior is 100% a trauma response. Ladybug is supposed to be his escape from his abusive homelife. And yet, the show writes him falling back into his trauma responses with her (Kuro Neko) and does jack shit to portray it as a bad thing. And the Season 4 finale is once again Adrien putting aside his feelings and showing up to support her. Adrien's emotions are not validated, they are tossed aside. Ladybug admitted her mistakes as she did several times through Season 4, but she still did little to correct them. That admission in Strikeback doesn't do much, because we never see her do anything to fix her mistakes after that. What happened was that Chat Noir saw her in distress and decided his feelings were unimportant because she needed support.

This is not healthy. Adrien should not be invalidating his own feelings so that he can offer comfort to others. He shouldn't forget and forgive so quickly without the other person doing anything to correct their behavior towards him. Once again, this is how Gabriel has taught him to behave, to stop "being so emotional" and to conform to his expectations. And Adrien continuously downplays his own issues for others' sake. And obviously, we would understand that he can heal from this, that he can learn to take care of his own emotional needs first.

And quite frankly, all the posts about how we shouldn't want Adrien and Marinette to break up, or how we shouldn't be so hard on Marinette, or that she is just a child in tough situation, or that she is doing it out of love and that Adrien would forgive her kinda make my point. Because let's be real. What Marinette did is a serious breach of trust. I do not understand how anyone could forgive something like that quickly. And I understand why she did it. I don't think she is a bad person or anything like that. But it's still an awful thing to do. And frankly, I don't see how Adrien could just... instantaneously forgive her without invalidating and downplaying his own pain and hurt. If he did, I would seriously question his self-worth. And while I don't think Adrien would never forgive Marinette or that he would stop loving her, frankly, I would like to see more acknowledgement of his feelings and his emotional needs both from the fandom and the show. I would like to see that his feelings matter, that he is allowed to be angry and that he is allowed to hold people accountable and call them out. I would like for him to not forgive some people. I would like for him to require distance and space from them. That would be development for Adrien, to let himself be emotional and not feel the need to put his own needs aside for others.

But for Adrien to prioritize himself, it would mean acknowledging the harmful things characters like Marinette have done to him. And that can't happen, because all the purpose Adrien serves is as a plot device to connect Marinette to Gabriel, and actually having her be held accountable by the narrative for her choices is a big no no. Growth for Adrien would mean that he lets himself be angry at Marinette for how she kept secrets from him, never apologized for it, and ultimately ended up keeping the greatest secret of all from him about his father and the fact that he is a Sentimonster. But as the writing to this point shows, Marinette isn't a safe space for him where he is allowed to be himself. She is someone who also elicits his trauma responses from him. He doesn't let himself be angry with her, he always puts himself last when it comes to her.

I am not saying Marinette is in any way comparable to Gabriel. She is nowhere as bad as him, she does not come close to that in any way. Marinette is a good person. But what she did in the finale, is explicitly something that Gabriel wanted her to do. Gabriel wanted to continue to dictate his son's emotions and perceptions, and Marinette helped him do it. That's not a healthy relationship. And looking at all the Marinette-Gabriel parallels in Season 5... it's not a good look at all. The show portrays Adrien as someone who has been denied autonomy his whole life, and as someone who is expected to cater to the desires of the people around him and be perfect for them while neglecting his emotional needs, and made his arc one of finding independence and his own identity and learning that his feelings and desires matter. But also, they only matter as far as they don't inconvenience Marinette. Adrien shouldn't downplay his feelings, but if doing so would help Marinette, then he should do it actually. And it's hard for me not to see it as Ladybug benefitting from his trauma from his abusive home. It sounds harsh, but that's how it feels.

And all the talk of how Adrien would never hate Marinette and that he would forgive her is... disappointing to me. Because I don't necessarily disagree, but it still is about prioritizing Marinette's feelings over Adrien's. What is focused on is not how Adrien might feel betrayed, but how Marinette might feel sad about Adrien feeling betrayed by her, and reinforces that Adrien is so good because he would not hold it against her. Even though he should, even though it means he would be downplaying his pain massively if he didn't blame her for that. If Adrien's character should develop, he should be allowed to realize that he has the right to get angry and that he doesn't have to downplay his emotions or feel like it's all his fault. He should be allowed to do that without people jumping to Marinette's defense and excusing her of blame.

Throughout the series, Adrien has been the person to help Ladybug through her problems, and the narrative has never allowed her to do the same for him. And I want to see focus on Adrien for a change. I want to see someone other than Plagg reassuring him and supporting him, especially his partner. I want to see the narrative be less about "oh, Adrien would never hold anything against Marinette because he loves her and would understand her always," and be more "actually Adrien is allowed to prioritize his feelings and want distance from Marinette after she betrayed him in such a personal way." That would be development. That would be reclaiming his agency. That would be free will and autonomy. I would like to see focus on this in the show and the fandom.

Adrien is not obligated to forgive Marinette. He is not obligated to understand her reasonings for why she did what she did. He is allowed to be angry at her and express his hurt because of her actions. Seasons 4 and 5 have regrettably established Marinette as someone else who denies Adrien's agency and around whom he reverts back to his fawning trauma response, and quite frankly the best thing for him to do would be to break up with her and go find himself on his own terms. I want his character to develop and grow, and unfortunately, Seasons 4 and 5 proved to me that it would not be possible as long as he is around Marinette, both from a character and narrative standpoint.

I just wish people would acknowledge and validate Adrien's perspective and feelings more. Even if it means calling out Marinette. Gabe is Adrien's abuser but he isn't the only one who has hurt Adrien in the story. Marinette is an incredible and amazing person but as far as we've reached in the show, she is hurting Adrien. And she has done many things across these two seasons that violate Adrien's trust. It's not even that this is a mistake she could learn from, but that she has done several such things over and over. From keeping secrets about the Miraculous holders' identities even though Hawkmoth himself knew, to Rena Furtive, to trying to trick him into an identity reveal in Ephemeral, and now keeping the fact that he is a Sentimonster and that Gabe is Monarch from him. It's gone from secret keeping to outright lying to him. It is not healthy. And it is a sign of stagnation and regression in Adrien's growth if he continues to keep forgiving her over and over again despite her never fixing her behavior.

If Adrien's arc is about finding autonomy, then he cannot be with someone who is complicit in denying him the ability to make his own choices. If Marinette was supposed to be the knight in shining armor, they shouldn't have given her the key to the tower and have her hide it away. If she was supposed to save him, they shouldn't have had her condemn him further. If Marinette was supposed to be the one who helped Adrien regain his self worth, the person whom he could trust and rely on the most, they shouldn't have made her side with Gabe, deny Adrien his agency, and violate his trust so many times.

It didn't have to be written this way, but these were the decisions made by the writers. They chose to portray Marinette like this for no discernable reason and refused to acknowledge it or deal with it meaningfully. Adrienette is so profoundly unhealthy now that if Adrien's character is to grow, the only way for him to do that is to break up with Marinette. But the show has also made it very clear that Adrien is only a plot device and a trophy for Marinette at the end. So I have no doubt that all will be forgiven in a matter of minutes, and the narrative will praise Adrien for being traumatized and denying his own emotional needs to comfort Marinette as she feels bad for hurting him. And it's sad, but I guess it is what it is.

[iwasbored777]

*Marinette stan anon* it's no big it's nice hearing stories of how people became stans of _

And you bring up a good point of how the Fandom seems to try to pit adrien and Marinette against each other and having this weird view of the love square where they have to 'earn' the right to be together (Marinette has to stop being Marinette or adrien has to stop being adrien) compared to anyone else who has presented as a love interest of either of them (held the door open for m or a one time = #relationshipgoals)

Why can't we just love both and enjoy the love Square instead of pitting them against each other

Believe it or not I WAS CLOSE to become Adrien salter, pls put your swords down before I explain 😅, but I realized it quickly, it literally lasted for few days tops before I made this account, that I don't hate Adrien - I hate double standards his stans usually put and then have the stomach to call the show misogynistic when they're the only ones who act like that. Every argument I used it wasn't really against Adrien, it was "but he isn't pure too, why are you acting like Marinette is treating him so badly when both make mistakes" and then I was like "you idiot, you can defend Marinette without being a b*tch to a character you actually like, you don't hate Adrien and you know it, you just want Marinette to be treated equally as him in the fandom". This was somewhere when season 4 started I think - Ladynoir conflict era - and it was hard. I was mad bc of the Marinette backlash but Adrien is my favourite oblivious boy/soon-to-be son in law. I love both of them and they are my kids and toxic stans who don't ship them don't have to interact with me.