#MRA discourse

[wild-at-mind]

Btw you might see me using the term ‘MRA-lite’ and wonder what it means. It’s a term I use for people who are kind of MRA adjacent, and may end up there at some point, due to the ideas they are escousing; however I don’t call them MRAs because that term has become associated with being hateful, and often violent or dangerous towards women. People who are more MRA-lite I do not think are hateful, let alone violent or dangerous. They are just encountering some (very old, tedious and missing a lot of background context) ideas and saying ‘why is no one talking about this???’ very earnestly.

[facelesspassport]

Today I heard someone say that there is an "insecurity epidemic among young men" and I am just so fucking happy someone has FINALLY given me the words to describe what is happening to the world. I keep hearing whinging about "men's mental health crisis" and "male loneliness" and "male suicide rates" blahblah in spite of the fact that none of that stuff is actually an issue. Women's depression and rates of suicide attempts have remained consistently higher than men's over the years, and if we look at sex stats you'll see that the rise of loneliness is actually affecting women at very similar rates to men (12% and 14% celibacy rates in the US, respectively). Not to mention the suicide attempts of young women and girls have sky-rocketed in the last couple of years. Suicidal ideation in girls in my country is currently double that of boys. In spite of all this we still see males lashing out en masse, claiming that "men are under attack", "women are privileged", and feminism is "ruining men's lives". Even though none of their claims have any basis in reality there is still an obvious problem here- something is very disturbed in the modern male psyche; but I have not seen anyone accurately label the issue until today. There is an insecurity epidemic among men. Women are finally attending classes, entering the workplace, and gaining voting rights in most countries around the world. These changes are a recent development and they are making modern men question their place in society- as they should. Sadly, instead of taking this time to self reflect, men are desperately trying to stop women's suffrage and cry "abuse" whenever we hold firm. What we are seeing is a big, glorified tantrum, not a "mental health crisis". I am not sure how we would go about fixing this problem but I'm glad that I am finally able to name it!! I thank D'Angelo Wallace for the help.

[cartoonghosts]

why do people online argue about the stupidest shit. It doesn't matter babe go outside and look at a cloud please this isn't good for anyone

[velvetvexations]

I might be off base here, but I think that part of the reason why some transfems* sometimes react so defensively when transmascs* replying to their posts about trans experiences is that a lot of them are so intensely dysphoric that the thought of their experiences being ones that could be shared by men* feels in and of itself like an act of misgendering

*broad labels used w/ the understanding that there's nuance to their applicability

previous anon here w/ added context, although not especially well written so apologies if it doesn't make sense part of the reason I think that, apart from just outside observation, is that when I was a young teenager, very very early in my transition and not especially stable, I fell into a very similar pattern of thinking when it came to thinking about my own experiences of misogyny. I never fell down any shitty right wing rabbit holes with it, but there was a solid half decade there where I just couldn't bear the thought that I was being impacted by misogyny in the same way that the girls I knew were, because I felt like to acknowledge that would be to concede that I was actually just a girl after all.

That kinna gender defensiveness plays a large part in the behavior of trans radical feminists*, but everything else is small potatoes to the fact that mostly they're just aggressive bullies who get off on flexing their victimization and holding up their category as the only pure people on Earth.

*"stop lying and saying that transphobes think of trans women as men, they know we're women, you just want to misgender us by proxy!"

[modgod200]

This might be a controversial post, but fuck it.

I think the only people who are qualified to talk about the other gender’s experience are trans people. Unless you have lived as that gender, your opinion of their experience is based solely on other people’s accounts and/or your own biased observations of what their experience must be like. I have never been a woman. I do not know what it is like to exist as a woman nor do I know what it is like to be treated as a woman, and if I tried to picture life as a women based on what I have seen or heard it is not going to be an accurate representation of being a woman. The same way that if you have lived your entire life as a woman you do not understand what it is truly like to live as a man. You look like a dumbass if you talk about how the other group will “ never understand what it’s like” to be your gender and then act like you have perfect encyclopedic knowledge on the other’s lived experiences.

Trans people are the only people who truly understand how the world treats both men and women, and I find their accounts and insights about their experiences to be absolutely fascinating. Hearing trans men’s accounts about being a man has opened my eyes to some of my own experiences that I have never really examined because I thought it was a universal fact of life instead of a gender-specific experience. And hearing trans women’s experiences on being a woman has helped me understand a little bit better how a woman’s experiences differ from my own because they actually have a man’s frame of reference that they can compare it to and explain it with.

[fite-club]

the sheer fucking audacity of transandrophobia truthers to say shit like "everyone just thinks we should shut up and quit whining, sound familiar? people are saying that we're trying to dominate the conversation and that we need to be nicer, reminds you of something doesn't it?" like ok are you seen as men or not? do you understand how women's complaints are sidelined or not? how can you make it any more obvious that you see yourselves as closer to "womanhood" than trans women. you're literally implying that your words aren't being heard because you're being treated like women.

[hyumjim]

I actually do think. There are some commonalities between trans men and trans women’s experiences broadly speaking. But we all know this right. Trans women have the right to their own spaces and transmisogyny deserves to be recognized as its own particular beast and these things should not be controversial statements. But I also think that there is general trans experience stuff, and occasionally very specific stuff that we can have community over. Idk why I feel like I’m being terrible by saying “I’ve felt that way too,” or “this has happened to me too,” when it’s something that is being singled out as being a product of transmisogyny. Is that pulling focus? I am not trying to center my experience, but saying that I relate to what is being said. I have had a lot of beautiful friendships with trans women and I fear that we may not have connected with each other ever if I was afraid to say that I saw my own experience in theirs….

[gibbearish]

ik i talk abt high control groups kinda often but i do encourage anyone involved in discourse in any capacity to watch folding ideas' "this is financial advice" video, because a lot of what he says about the gamestop apes being a self-organizing high control group imo also explains the more toxic discourse tendencies, and i feel like most discussion around high-control groups on here focuses on the tradtional kind that has one or a few distinct leaders which makes it harder to draw parallels between the signs. so i think its important to point out that these kinds of groups can still create that same energy as a unit even if there isn't one specific person calling the shots

[catt-deactivated20240918]

I should make bait posts more often this is rather entertaining

[the-mummy]

Just realized that since Strange Darling just released digitally I'm about to see some of the dumbest, incredibly off, and bad faith founded "reviews" possible. Hate that.

[straightlightyagami]

ngl i’m not a fan of radical feminism as an ideology even when it’s not transphobic (although obviously the “trans inclusive” version is better)

[wild-at-mind]

If you ever see me becoming one of those transmisandry people, please fucking call me out immediately.

[meowm1x]

some random fuck just added a misogynistic screed from a random post i rb'ed and i was like. gonna say "sorry my follower posted that.jpg" but i dont even think they were following me, unless it's a sideblog? even weirder behaviour if so. even then i didnt want to reblog to give any attention, this nonsense doesnt deserve it.

imagine calling yourself a dyke and then having such cringe opinions about women. anyways, just in case anyone else wants to block, it's dykebender.

[professorbussywinkle]

This is a post for the boys and men

When you experience a frustration or emotional pain in life and don't cry it out, it stays in you, and the next time you become frustrated, the strength of that previous frustration is compounded with that subsequent frustration, making this one new instance of frustration, have the strength and potency of two instances of frustration, and so on and so forth, and when you cry, it all gets released and the next time you experience a frustration, it only has the strength of one single frustration

Now imagine you're a man, and you are told that you will no longer be a man if you feel hurt by something and have the human impulse to cry about it, and that people in real time, right in front of you, will immediately stop respecting you, and start berating you, calling you a pussy little faggot and a crybaby bitch and reducing your manhood as illegitimate when you do this "Unacceptable Thing For A Man To Do™️" yeah, id become emotionally distant with everyone too...

Those moments when you wanna release your compounded pain, and every time you tried to release that pain, people interpreted that moment of vulnerability as a weak point to strategically exploit to make you feel even worse and less than, builds up so quickly and is so profoundly emotionally destructive, I cannot express this strongly enough

men frequently fucking kill themselves over this exact thing

Now imagine a life times worth of those frustrations, and people exploiting your vulnerability in order to tear you down even more and terrorize you, and you'll begin to understand why men are so cold and closed off and act the way they act

If you were not raised as a boy, you will never understand this profoundly destructive, soul raping feeling of being forced to carry every single frustration you have ever felt since childhood on your shoulders, if your manhood is to have any legitimacy in people eyes

We are failing our young men and boys by doing this, we HAVE to treat our men and boys better, it's okay to cry, your literal life and peace solely depend on you being able to cry out the pain experienced from living in this world, please fucking cry. You will feel so much lighter. If anyone has ever done this to you, know that you didn't deserve that bullshit, and that was fucked up for them to treat you like that, and I'm personally so fucking sorry people did you like that

Side note also: if you're a woman and a man has ever trusted you enough to take one of the greatest risks in life by letting his guard down and deciding to be emotionally vulnerable and open with you and cried in front of you and you decided to throw that shit back in his face and made him feel like he was less of a man for it, you're a piece of shit woman, and you should rethink your life choices

[facelesspassport]

Girls, every time you find yourself wanting to "debate" an mra talking point, you can just post a link to one of the sections of this video instead.

I never have to talk to a misogynist again. Thanks, munecat :-)

[scientia-rex]

When I was in ninth grade I wanted to challenge what I saw as a very stupid dress code policy (not being allowed to wear spikes regardless of the size or sharpness of the spikes). My dad said to me, “What is your objective?”

He said it over and over. I contemplated that. I wanted to change an unfair dress code. What did I stand to gain? What did I stand to lose? If what I really wanted was to change the dress code, what would be my most effective potential approach? (He also gave me Discourses on the Fall of Rome by Titus Livius, Machiavelli’s magnum opus. Of course he’d already given me The Prince, Five Rings, and The Art of War.)

I ultimately printed out that phrase, coated it in Mod Podge, and clipped it to my bathroom mirror so I would look at it and think about it every day.

What is your objective?

Forget about how you feel. Ask yourself, what do you want to see happen? And then ask, how can you make it happen? Who needs to agree with you? Who has the power to implement this change? What are the points where you have leverage over them? If you use that leverage now, will you impair your ability to use it in the future? Getting what you want is about effectiveness. It is not about being an alpha or a sigma or whatever other bullshit the men’s right whiners are on about now. You won’t find any MRA talking points in Musashi, because they are not relevant.

I had no clear leverage on the dress code issue. My parents were not on the PTA; neither were any of my friend’s parents who liked me. The teachers did not care about this. Ultimately I just wore what I wanted, my patent leather collar from Hot Topic with large but flattened spikes, and I had guessed correctly—the teachers also did not care enough to discipline me.

I often see people on tumblr, mostly the very young, flail around in discourse. They don’t have an objective. They don’t know what they want to achieve, and they have never thought about strategizing and interpersonal effectiveness. No one can get everything they want by being an asshole. You must be able to work with other people, and that includes smiling when you hate them.

Read Machiavelli. Start with The Prince, but then move on to Discourses. Read Musashi’s Five Rings. Read The Art of War. They’re classics for a reason. They can’t cover all situations, but they can do more for how you think about strategizing than anything you’re getting in middle school and high school curricula.

Don’t vote third party unless you can tell me not only what your objective is but also why this action stands a meaningful chance of accomplishing it. Otherwise, back up and approach your strategy from a new angle. I don’t care how angry you are with Biden right now. He knows about it, and he is both trying to do something and not doing enough. I care about what will happen to millions of people if we have another Trump presidency. Look up Ross Perot, and learn from our past. Find your objective. If it is to stop the genocide in Palestine now, call your elected representatives now. They don’t care about emails; they care about phone calls, because they live in the past. I know this because I shadowed a lobbyist, because knowing how power works is critical to using it.

How do you think I have gotten two clinics to start including gender care in their planning?

Start small. Chip away. Keep working. Find your leverage; figure out how and when to effectively use it. Choose your battles, so that you can concentrate on the battle at hand instead of wasting your resources in many directions. Learn from the accumulated wisdom of people who spent their lives learning by doing, by making mistakes, by watching the mistakes of their enemies.

Don’t be a dickhead. Be smarter than I was at 14. Ask yourself: what is your objective?