#ML Meta

[cakemousse]

alright unless proven otherwise, i'm going to hc that toxinelle's crush is actually griffe noire

or a “crush who doesn’t think I’m a lame-o”! credits to @2manyfandoms2count for the translation

it's unfortunate... but hear me out

the salters always say that the lovesquare is toxic codependency, imma show you what real toxic codependency really is, on the part of emonette at least

'he's rude as fuck and disrespects her all the time, there's no way emonette would fall for him' while this is true and i would agree under normal circumstances, toxinelle came from a world where she didn't have anyone, no super awesome friends to inspire her everyday, no best friend in life and in death, no mum who is gentle and calm, nothing. she's lonely and has nothing to fall back on, but you know who she can fall back on? griffe noire

even if he does let her fall

he is the only constant she has in her life, at least ever since she got her miraculous. even if it means getting insulted left and right by him, she puts up with him

why? cause if she doesn't she'll truly lose the only thing she has 'going' in her life

and we can see that after she read marinette’s diary about the part where ladybug and chat noir are partners or rather teammates, she looks at griffe noire, as though she’s thinking of being teammates with him. it’s something she wants, and we know it’s something she truly wants by the end of the special

also in this universe, emodrien has a crush on emonette, so what's preventing toxinelle to have a crush on griffe noire?

toxinelle isn’t happy, we can tell when she poured her heart out to ladyfly about everything and then finally about her crush thinking she’s lame all the time, but there isn’t much she can do if she wants her constant to continue be by her side

loneliness really does some fucked up things to a person huh?

the concept’s pretty fitting of a villain don’t you think? 🥲

[uptoolateart]

Here's a whole bunch of initial thoughts I have after watching the London Special.

Time Travel

Speaking as someone who writes way too many stories involving time travel...there were a lot of holes in this special. Also, I appreciate that it's been 15 months since the S5 finale aired, and they probably wanted to remind us (and especially children) of the key moments...but some scene repetition felt like it was just there to pad out the episode length. But I'm gonna shrug all that off because of everything else this special did.

Lies, Lies and More Lies

I've not been quiet about how angry I was over Ladybug lying to Adrien and keeping vital secrets, in that S5 finale. I'm so glad to see that this special addressed that stuff. By the end, we see that both heroes are keeping secrets. Cat's identity has become more pertinent than never, and she has no idea.

Going Too Far

In their final conversation, Ladybug told Cat she worried she might have gone 'too far' this time. Throughout S5, we were repeatedly told no one has ever been able to handle unifying the miraculous like Marinette can. We also watched her change dramatically over that season. By the S5 finale, I felt like she'd become overpowered. In this special, I think she acknowledged that. Maybe she handed out the other miraculous because she realised she was in danger of becoming another Gabriel, e.g. making decisions about what's right for Adrien, etc.

Did She Make the Right Decision?

With no one else to turn to, Marinette asks Plagg and Tikki if she made the right decision. They don't tell her she's wrong, but they also seem very undecided. She also asks Bunnyx, who tells her that both paths - telling or not telling Adrien the truth - will lead to both happy and sad moments. This warns us that hard times are on their way. She wants to 'protect Adrien', but she can't. She can't keep him from pain. seems to suggest that Marinette's choice to keep the truth from him is going to lead to some hard times.

Kagami

Kagami intimated that she disagreed with Marinette's decision. When she comforted Adrien in the white room and told Bug Noire to go...that really hit me. There is so much going on there. Transformed, Marinette can't comfort Adrien. In fact, she's just hurt him, and Kagami is the only one in that scene able to help him pick up the pieces. Not just that, but Kagami can relate. Remember her name means 'mirror'. She's now in the position Adrien could be in, if he knew the truth. She's the one trying to come to terms with the truth about her parent. She's the one dealing with the knowledge that she's a sentibeing. She is an example of Adrien's alternate path. When she tells Bug Noire that she's letting her love for Adrien blind her...Kagami is speaking personally - as someone who can put herself in Adrien's shoes in a way Marinette just can't.

If I Could Turn Back Time

When Chrono Bug got that black cat calendar as a lucky charm, she must have known it meant Cat Noir was somehow the solution. But she ignored it. I think her emotions regarding Adrien blinded her from understanding what the universe was trying to tell her.

She and Bunnyx spent much of the episode trying to determine the crucial moment when things started spinning out of control - the moment they needed to change. Marinette focused on the revelation of her identity, which I'm sure was vital. BUT...the elephant in the room was the moment she chose to lie to Adrien. Standing in that time burrow, she had a chance to change the story she told him and undo everything that's on its way. Surely that cat calendar was hinting at this.

Kitten

I think it's telling that the cat on the calendar was a kitten. It felt like the universe was telling her there's something she isn't seeing in Cat - that he's more fragile and in need of nurturing than she acknowledges. When she sees him at the end, and he tells her he has his own awful secret - when he cries over it - she should be questioning why he's that eaten up about missing that final battle. What's his secret? Why's he so devastated? But she's too wrapped up in her own conundrum. Like in Cat Blanc, she's not 'listening'. For me, the most painful moment was when he tried to reassure her that things would be okay - now it'll be 'you and me again, just like old times'. She hasn't yet told him there's actually a huge team now. But they both must understand that the old times are well and truly gone.

The Truth Is Out There

We're now waiting for yet another reveal. Adrien and Marinette still have to find out they're Cat and Ladybug - but Adrien also has to find out the truth about his father. This special hammered it all in so hard that it's Chekhov's gun waiting to go off. What I wonder is if the writers had this angle in mind all along, or if they did this after they saw the fan reaction to that S5 finale. I suspect it's a bit of the latter, particularly because they also had Bunnyx explain that Marinette's reaction to Gabriel in the S5 finale was her getting the 'proof' that he was Monarch. Her reaction was one of many things we all questioned after that episode first aired, so I think the writers were trying to 'fix' things with this special. And I'm fine with that. I'm pleased that they're listening and not just moving on from this stuff / trying to sell it to us that lying to someone is 'the right thing to do'.

The Wild Card

At the end of S5, I thought it was clear that Lila had worked out Ladybug's identity. I assumed S6 would involve some vendetta against Marinette. This special demonstrated that would make things too easy, so they levelled the playing field. Lila doesn't know Ladybug's identity. But she does know Monarch was Gabriel. I think it's inevitable that at some point (probably not for ages, because the writers will want to string us along in suspense), she'll tell Adrien the truth about his father.

Cat Blanc

I think 'Cat Blanc', and Adrien's vision in the white room, were foreshadowing. In this special, we saw how angry Adrien was at Bug Noire when she told her story. He demanded to know why she couldn't save Gabriel. He seemed to have forgiven her by the end, but when he learns the truth, he's going to feel so betrayed. And when he breaks down...watch out, moon.

The Inevitable Break-Up

I think it's inevitable that Adrinette will break up...but only temporarily. When it all blows up, it could be the necessary turning point we've been waiting for, where they finally get on equal footing - where their relationship is based on honesty and total mutual respect.

Conclusion

Buckle up, guys. We're in for a bumpy ride - but I remain optimistic. After 15 crazy months, I'm finally no longer angry about the S5 finale.

[nemaliwrites]

I keep thinking about how Adrien would be different if he were mister bug from the beginning rather than chat noir - here is an attempt to gather my Thoughts

You are Adrien Agreste.

You have never lived a life where you are free; you have never lived, period. People look at you, and they see what they want to see. They see the plastic smile on your face, one you have perfected over the years. They see your perfect hair, your perfect face. The clothes they dress you in have more personality than you do.

And then one day comes a man who sees you.

He hands you a box — earrings inside, but it’s more than that. What he hands you is responsibility. Trust. The ability to actually be someone.

There is a partner with you; a girl you don’t love. You could have, perhaps, if things were different.

(If there weren’t already another in your heart: someone who hates you, yes, but inspires you to be a better person every day. Who inspires you to put on those earrings, take up your yo-yo, and do the right thing)

She is wild, amazing, black cat through and through. But where she is wild, you are restrained. This is the biggest, the only responsibility you have ever been given. The last thing you want to do is give it up.

Your partner, she tells you, is the opposite. Her entire life has been nothing but responsibility. It’s different, she thinks, to let someone else take the lead for once. To listen instead of command.

Different, you repeat. Does that mean bad?

No, she tells you with a smile. Just different.

The akumas you fight are difficult, of course — but in a way, you’re used to it. In a way, your whole life is nothing but a series of akuma battles.

Wait. Listen. Find the simplest way out of things; the way that saves the most people. And now, you have your ladybugs to set things right in a way you have never been able to before.

Duty makes your shoulders heavier, your mouth set. But that’s not a bad thing. Just different.

Maybe this is who you were always meant to be.

[hawkeabelas]

i will never understand just how desperately people want Marinette to be punished for the choices she made at the end of season 5. like, yeah, she kept some information from her boyfriend that he definitely has the right to have. that sucks. but the choice makes sense: she wants to protect his feelings, he just became a literal orphan and she doesn't want to add to his grief, also from her perspective she's a superhero and he's a civilian (we know this isn't the case, but that's dramatic irony baybee!) and that's a burden for her alone to carry as Ladybug.

Obviously this will eventually cause conflict, maybe even an argument or several. But Marinette and Adrien are very emotionally mature for their age, out of necessity, and I think they'll work through it and be stronger in the end.

but my fucking god do people want the worst for Marinette in season 6. to the point where they talk about an adrinette breakup being inevitable and earned. like this is the worst thing Marinette has ever done and she deserves to have everyone in Paris hate her forever.

like fucking hell. she's a 14 year old who was tasked with responsibilities that would make most adults crumble. give the girl a break.

[passionfruitbowls]

i love how adrien tries to put marinette at ease by letting her know that he’s also still getting used to their relationship, and that he has his own worries. it shows her that she doesn’t have to be alone while navigating her feelings.

and then, when she pulls her hand away and apologises, he’s caring and patient. he doesn’t try and rush her into doing anything, he doesn’t dismiss the trauma she’s developed from people (namely chloé) bullying her in the past. he’s more than happy to wait until they both feel ready to be more affectionate with each other. and having that mutual trust and respect is a very important part of any relationship

[bittersweetresilience]

the designers

the runaways

the ones who create

the ones who decay

the lovers

the halves of a whole

a short incoherent compilation of parallels between marinette and adrien and gabriel and émilie. i'm also thinking about the ones who make choices and the sacrificial lambs but for now have these.

inspired by @anna-scribbles! happy thirteen day!

[ilikekidsshows]

I remember years ago when Ladybug the episode airing, there's so many people called Tom and Sabine as a bad parents... for whatever reason, and I was one that keep saying they're a good parents. Now though... it make me wondering if they are really as good as I thought they were if Marinette turned out to be this bad.

I saw some people say the reason why Marinette turned to be this spoiled is because she has one child syndrome, but Adrien is one too and ironically he become a better person than Marinette ever be. And the only one child who become spoiled is Chloé and Felix whose parents is also way too doting that they let the kid do whatever.

Today I found out the term "Helicopter parenting" A helicopter parent (also called a cosseting parent or simply a cosseter) is a term for a parent who is overattentive and overly fearful of a child's experiences and problems, particularly outside the home and at educational institutions. And I feels like its something that Tom would do, especially in Weredad episode. He doesn't want Marinette to feel sad so he will create a situation where she won't be sad, emotion need to be fixed or prevented, which... Track with what Marinette's tend to do.

I know I shouldn't put pshycological aspect into a cartoon, let alone a toddler show, but it just fit. 😅

---

The thing about discussing psychology when it comes to media isn't really about who the media is for, I think. The issue, as I see it, comes from using stereotypes of different conditions to classify characters in a negative way, regardless of what genre a piece of media belongs to. It's kinda how you would go about actually writing a story with these same themes: don't forget there are real people who deal with these things who won't appreciate being demonized or dehumanized, so treat the topic with compassion.

However, sometimes it can be useful for your self discovery to discuss whether or not a character fits similar categories as you yourself do. It can be a fun topic to discuss when it's done in a compassionate way. Sometimes small details just fit together way too well to not bring it up. Sometimes it can be good to be aware that the writers might be codifying their characters a certain way and what kinds of attitudes that codifying enforces.

Those people calling Marinette's problems "only child syndrome" when we can see her parents and their parenting techniques are definitely barking up the wrong tree. Only children aren't naturally spoiled, they might not be spoiled at all. But helicopter parents are common these days. A lot of modern parents are afraid of screwing up because we're more aware than ever of how parents can traumatize their kids, and that makes them easily veer into overprotective territory. I do agree with you that helicopter/cosseting parenting seems to be a far more fitting descriptor for what’s going on with Marinette.

Miraculous does often genuinely hit the nail on the head on what some types of parenting do to kids, which makes it so absolutely bonkers when they claim that it's not on purpose. It’s more likely that some of it was on purpose, but the writers then changed their minds about what they wanted to say about parenting. Like, Chloé’s issues get built up as being the result of being spoiled and neglected by her father and mother respectively, but then season five claims Chloé‘s just an evil hellspawn who was born that way.

The thing about Adrien is that his disposition also makes sense with his upbringing. His only friend growing up was Chloé, the epitome of a spoiled brat lashing out because she doesn’t get actual care from her parents, and sometimes Félix, another emotionally unskilled kid lashing out at others because he doesn’t have friends. Add to this Adrien’s emotionally immature father, who goes on a year-long magical rampage where he purposefully tramples on everyone else’s emotions in a misguided attempt to get his wife back with no consideration towards the son he also loves and who's actually still alive. Gabriel also doesn’t want to shield Adrien from disappointments, he often causes them and seems to have that attitude that it’s character-building.

But yeah, it makes sense that Adrien is emotionally astute, since his own emotional well-being relied on him developing the skills to work around the social bombs he grew up around. And then the series decided that, actually, Adrien being so attentive, often even to his own detriment, is a good thing because Marinette can benefit from it. Suddenly Gabriel’s behavior was claimed to not be abusive or emotionally damaging to Adrien at all and Félix is a caring cousin and a good guy. Considering there are still some throw-away lines in the post-retool episodes about how harmful Adrien’s fawning is to himself, it really seems like either there’s been a change in course or the writers disagreed on what the takeaway over Adrien’s family situation was supposed to be.

As for Marinette, ‘Weredad’ does, just as you pointed out, confirm Tom as an incredibly overprotective parent. I’ve also previously made a post about how Marinette exhibits a lot of signs of being an overly coddled child, which is the same thing as a child with cosseting/helicopter parents. Marinette can’t handle stress, because her parents don’t expect things from her, not wanting to pressure her. The one time her parents asked her to do anything for them in the show was handing off a cake to a customer in ‘Timebreaker’. The rest of the time Marinette seems to almost be a free-range child, with no mention of bedtimes or her parents expecting her to have her homework done. Marinette’s studies barely get mentioned, which is really weird for a middle school teen hero show where the characters spend a lot of time in school and classes. But Marinette’s parents are apparently completely unaware of what Marinette does with her day or what happens at school, outside of the letter/email they received in ‘Simon Says’ about Marinette’s repeated absences. Nobody keeps track of or expects anything from Marinette on a more casual level, so when things actually rely on her performance, she buckles under the pressure.

Marinette also can’t handle setbacks, because her parents refuse to voice out her failures and weaknesses so that she could accept them. In ‘Animaestro’, where Marinette starts badmouthing herself, her parents, instead of dealing with this self-deprecating attitude directly, insist she’s definitely not a klutz and totally gets to be a server. They also completely sideline her reason for wanting to be at the event because of this, which they know is to see Adrien. The instant Marinette’s lip starts wobbling, her parents will lie to make her feel better instead of discussing the situation with her. Basically, they treat her like she’s a toddler incapable of understanding that they have a responsibility to their client to not bring an untrained child to work as a server at a public media event with a lot of celebrities.

This lack of dealing with Marinette’s self-esteem problems is also related to Marinette’s past as a victim of Chloé’s bullying. Marinette’s parents are very unengaged with Marinette’s role as a victim; even when she gets expelled on what they think (rightly so) are false accusations, they leave things to the authorities and just tell Marinette she can work at the bakery. To a child, that preparation for the worst-case-scenario feels like the parents aren’t on her side at all. Of course, we don’t know if the parents are aware of the past bullying Marinette faced; even in ‘Origins’ they merely encouraged her to go to school and bring everyone pastries. In general, Marinette’s parents seem to know very little about her friend group (they think Sabrina is a close friend of Marinette’s in ‘Darkblade’) and social standing in addition to her daily activities, which lends credence to me deeming her a free-range child.

Marinette also can’t handle rejection, because her parents never deny her anything except for a single episode, ‘Simon Says’, where they told her she couldn’t go out with her friends until she stopped skipping class. They were incredibly gentle about this grounding too, and held each other's hands afterwards, like this was an incredibly difficult task they’d just completed, gently telling their teenaged daughter she had to stop skipping class for a week before she could be allowed out whenever she wanted again. Basically, it takes extreme circumstances for Marinette’s parents to give her any boundaries, and they clearly don’t like doing it, which explains perfectly why she has no boundaries when it comes to pursuing her attraction to Adrien.

The problem with all of this is that this should be a good ground for Marinette to grow from. This is a valuable topic to discuss. As I said earlier in the post, overprotective helicopter parents who are afraid that every single disappointment or setback will traumatize their child for life are a thing. As such, this is an important thing to teach to families and especially to kids who wouldn't understand what's going on in their lives unless someone brought it up. But this isn't what the show does, because the head of the showrunners is the most overprotective parent of them all for his fictional creation, so of course he isn't going to criticize himself.

[fortuna-et-cataclysmos]

In defense of s5 finale

I hear and see a lot of people expressing dislike of the season finale, some also in the tags and comments of my analysis/speculation posts. So I wanted to further expand on this.

Gabriel's victory -being remembered a hero despite everything wrong he did, especially abuse to Adrien- has left a sour taste in many people's mouth; many blaming the scenarists and not shying away from calling it "bad writing."

But I think that that was exactly what the scenarists wanted to do? The perfect world Gabriel leaves behind is unsettling, unfair, and I think that the creators have done their best to show that implicitly but clearly. I think that we are supposed to be irked by the finale.

Why do I think that? Because there were a lot of small things that gave the message that, as @emsylcatac iconically put it, "this is the bad place." I touched upon some of those in my previous post on how this was a victory for Gabriel and Lila, and a defeat for Ladybug. I'll try to list them more clearly here.

Gabriel a hero

This is the one thing everyone has the most problem with. At the end, Gabriel was declared the hero who gave his life to defeat the Monarch, who was none other than himself. Some artistic choices here are so over the top that I believe they were specifically made to irk us.

If the silver statue itself wasn't enough, the exact quote of Caline Bustier is:

All the rings that have been highjacked by the Monarch have been recycled into a statue in honour of the great Gabriel Agreste.

Then Tsurugi Tomoe goes on to say:

Beyond the visionary entrepreneur and genius creator that he was, we are celebrating a hero today.

See, everything bad about Gabriel has been flipped. If you count literally exploiting people visionary entrepreneurship, sure, he was that. And genius? He couldn't get the miraculouses of two teenagers for an entire year despite having all the resources, and he ended up succeeding only with the help of another extremely powerful person (Tsurugi Tomoe) and even then he ended up dying himself.

As of creator, he was literally a destructor. He destroyed Paris more times than anyone can count, and everything was fixed every time only thanks to Ladybug. Let's not also forget how he destroyed the Miraculouses to exploit their power.

Adrien's comment about his father

This is another thing many people have had problem with. It is so outrageous that I won't believe the creators would expect us to take at face value.

At the end, Adrien acknowledges that his father died to take down the Monarch, and says:

I don't know if one day I'll manage to become like him.

Lo and behold, the man who had emotionally neglected and abused his son to no end has turned into the said son's hero and role model. Adrien not only looks up to him, but also wants to make an active effort to become like him. Hell, he even doubts if he can be as good as him.

No way this line can taken at face value. There are many children's shows with abusive parental figures nowadays (like She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, the Owl House) that have all handled the conclusion to that abuse generally well. The watchers' expectations are high in this respect; the scenarists would know that such conclusion, if not ironic, would not satiate the expectations of the spectators.

Lack of accountability: Gabriel and Tomoe

As many many people have pointed out, the general lack of accountability in this season finale is infuriating. So Gabriel mentally tortured THE ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION and not only never faced consequences in life, but also is remembered as a hero in death?

What about Tomoe?

Not only she has not faced any repercussion for being basically a supervillain, but also she is still a respected public figure who can go and make a speech backed by the mayor, in front of the freaking French flag. If that doesn't irk you, I don't know what will.

Worse is that, she goes as far as saying in her speech that:

I'll make sure to continue his legacy.

So she'll continue to be evil. Great hint that she'll continue being an antagonist in season 6.

As you can see, the new world that has been created is extremely unfair and problematic. No way this can be "the good place," an actual "happy ending."

Everything is fixed! No problems anymore!

Also, you'd realise that the world is perfect, a little too perfect. It is like a green utopian dream.

Caline Bustier has been the mayor "only for a few weeks" (direct quote from the episode), and she has already fixed all the problems possible in Paris. Not only that, she has also solved inequality and class struggle (again, mentioned by herself). Let's make Caline the President of the World already.

Funny that LITERALLY ALL THE PROBLEMS of a city could be solved, while the exact same episode showed Majestia, the freaking Supergirl of the ML universe, acknowledged in her nightmare that:

Even with all my superpowers, I'll never manage to solve all the problems of the world.

Well, Bustier says that she has no superpower, that people working together can accomplish that. Kudos to her and her democratic spirit. But like, perfect city in a few weeks? Even Mayor Bourgeois who wanted to send all the trash of Paris to space would realise that that's impossible.

There is no perfect solution, yet the world is perfect

Ladybug acknowledges that there is no perfect solution to Gabriel's situation. Trying to bring back his wife, he has caused irreparable damage to himself and to Nathalie, effectively leaving Adrien an orphan. He still hopes that Ladybug can fix it all. But she can't because of the nature of the wish: for one thing gained, another thing should be lost. In Ladybug's words:

There is no perfect wish. Every time a power is used for personal gain, it causes catastrophes. (...) We'll find a solution, but it will never be as perfect as one would wish.

Interesting, given that the world ends up being completely perfect?

All the problems are solved, literally everyone is happy, Marinette and Adrien are finally together. But the wish was made for personal gain, no? So where are the consequences? Where is equivalent exchange? The catastrophe, the price of the perfect, green, just world? I think we'll see that in season 6.

The dream world

The new world is seriously giving me weird vibes. Like it is a movie set. For those who have watched The Good Place, you'd know how in the town everything feels a bit too bright, artificial, perfect. I get the same vibes from the post-wish world.

The Agreste mansion is covered by green vines?? Way to hide the atrocities that were planned and happened here.

Here is a screengrab I found on the internet from The Good Place (the ladybug is a funny coincidence lol)

I am getting the exact same vibes!

Also, I have expanded on that in my post on "running out of time" theme, but basically in the ML universe usually the "real" stuff are associated with the night and the rain while things that happen in the sun turn out to be fake or erased/forgotten. So the feeling that I get from this finale is that, this new "perfect" world is not genuine; that the seeming happiness it brings will be soon destroyed (I doubt erased), just as it happened in other fake reality episodes like Chat Blanc, Ephemeral, Oblivio, or Jubilation. As I argued before, this is not a permanent victory. Hell, it isn't even a real victory, not with the secret Marinette is left to keep from Adrien.

Not a real victory

Another thing that makes me think that this ending is not genuine is the lack of Chat Noir in the finale. Yes, I am a fervent Ladynoir stan who was hoping for some Ladynoir action (if not reveal) and was hugely disappointed by the lack of Chat's engagement in the final fight, but now that I think of it, this may have been on purpose.

Notice how in Conformation, Ladybug says:

Our only way to win against him is to fight him together.

And yet, soon thereafter, she is catapulted into a fight with the Monarch.

Notice also it wasn't her choice to unify the miraculouses and face the Monarch alone. She had to, because Chat Noir wasn't there.

Let's remember that this show spent the entire season 4 explaining how Ladybug assuming all the responsibility alone leads to disaster, how she needs Chat Noir to share the burden with him.

Let's also remember how in season 5, especially at the beginning of it, we see Ladybug change her behaviour towards Chat Noir: she gives him more responsibilities (the Bunny Miraculous, the identity of certain holders if I am not mistaken), and how at one point she confesses that Chat Noir has been very serious and responsible lately (and then promptly develops a crush on him).

So taking on the Monarch herself is really against everything they have built up in season 4 and the beginning of season 5. That's why I think that this "victory" is so wrong: it was "won" only by Ladybug. Maybe if Chat Noir were there, he would have prevented the Monarch from making the wish (hypothetically, then we would have an entirely different timeline). If his identity were revealed the way Marinette's was, Gabriel could have controlled him through his amok. In any case, their defeat or victory would have looked very different from this.

In the end, we must remember that this world is far from being a victory for Ladybug: she has, after all, LOST. She couldn't stop Gabriel from making the wish. And while this world looks perfect, and we got what seems like a forever happy after ending for Adrinette, their happiness is set in a non-genuine victory and world.

So I think we shouldn't be angry with the show-runners: there is a reason why this ending feels and is wrong. If it were all wonderful, it wouldn't be the season finale. It would be the finale, period. And I believe that everything that has been disturbing us in this season finale will be addressed, if not consist of the core conflict of season 6. Let's all take a deep breath and turn to fan fiction or fan art till we get the new season now :) (at least that's what I'll do lol)

[gentil-minou]

I really should be sleeping but I really think one of the reasons Adrien is so fond of the statue scene and why it led to the realization of his feelings for Mari is because in that scene she's basically doing what he does as Chat Noir to Ladybug.

As in she's speaking his love language.

And I don't mean cringe, I mean honestly saying how she feels, showing open and deep devotion for the other person, a willingness to be vulnerable and dramatic in pursue of passion and love.

It must have been so jarring for Adrien to see Mari act that way, because it really is something Chat would do. And while I do think he thought it was just her joking around, that playfulness is what Adrien adores! And remember in psycomedian how important comedy is for Adrien! And Mari, well she's like him!

That "cringe" that all the haters complain about is exactly what Adrien loves about Mari, because it's exactly how he would express his feelings! And, as we've seen in canon, it is what opens his eyes to her and to his own feelings.

Don't forget Mari has ALWAYS struggled with her feelings and never been clear about them. That's WHY the statue scene happened in the first place, because Adrien thought she hated him. And all he wanted was to know if she maybe, just maybe liked him back. At least as a friend.

What he got instead was something way more, and I really do think it's because once she did say her feelings, in that ridiculous over the top way of hers to a statue, he realized they were more similar than they'd previously though.

LISTEN TO THE BOY.

[marimbles]

ok since i’ve really only whined but not actually explained my reasoning lol, here is my take on the s5 finale. (this is long, sorry)

I think we’re all on the same page about the idea that gabriel being seen as a hero, by all of paris but especially adrien, is icky. and on top of that it does not feel good that marinette is supporting that lie, even if it’s out of love for adrien. most people are assuming this issue will be resolved somehow in 6, probably by lila exposing the truth. cool. that’s my hope as well. but even if that’s the case, i still dislike the framing of his wish and what the surrounding context seems to imply about it.

it is not my assumption that gabriel’s wish included green initiatives and a reformation of the parisian school system lol. I assume that his wish was to exchange his own life for nathalie’s. but as we know, wishes literally rewrite reality. the fact is that paris improved after his wish, so it is still related. he remade the world, and the new world ended up better. It all supports the idea that his wish was a good thing—a noble sacrifice that redeemed him in some sense. my impression is that even if (hopefully) he is exposed as hawkmoth, the actual wish he made will still be framed as admirable. obviously marinette found it noble enough to agree to lie to everyone about gabriel’s identity as hawkmoth.

which brings me to another pain point: the fact that gabriel essentially won the long battle against ladybug and chat noir. i’ve heard arguments that he didn’t win because he died and how is that winning? he got what he deserved in the end. but imo, he just put himself out of his own misery, because he was on the brink of death anyway because of his cataclysm wound, and he basically escaped having to face any emotional consequences from his literal terrorism and child abuse. and even if you don’t consider that a win, you also can’t consider marinette’s end of the deal a win either. her goal was to prevent hawkmoth from unifying the miraculous and making a reality-altering wish. which is exactly what happened. so she failed her mission. ladybug lost. and to me it’s sort of bizarre that the narrative seems to be framing that as a good thing? ladybug lost, but the new reality that resulted from it is so much better than the old one, and she is actively choosing to lie in order to protect the seeming goodness of that reality.

marinette is lying, of course, to protect adrien, which does not feel out of character. we’ve seen her do this before. but it is frustrating to me for precisely that reason. the final battle was meant to highlight how much marinette has grown over the past five seasons, but her choice here highlights the ways she has not grown. starting with syren in season 2, she has witnessed how much it hurts chat noir to be left in the dark and how it weakens their partnership. in that case, she convinced master fu to let him be in the know, and trust was restored. but then she continued a habit of keeping things from him, putting more and more distance between them, till it culminated with kuro neko in s4—a total breakdown of the ladynoir partnership, where chat noir renounced his miraculous. i would have thought that marinette would learn from that experience and realize that keeping people in the dark is harmful and that even if the truth hurts, adrien has a right to know it. but she once again made the decision for him, and when he finally finds out, it will be all the more painful to know that the person he loves and trusts most in the world lied to him. i actually really appreciate that marinette as a protagonist has such a good heart but is still such an imperfect character, so i want to respect this choice as a manifestation of her flawed but good intentions. i just can’t help but be really disappointed that after 5 seasons of making the same mistakes again and again, she has apparently not learned from them, which makes me feel she has not grown the way the writers say she has.

her facing hawkmoth alone for the final battle is supposed to be a sign of that growth—and yes, I can see how she has grown a lot in confidence and capability since her shaky debut as ladybug. but i also feel that her flying solo defies one of the central themes of miraculous: that in the fight against evil, good people need to stand together. just think of the difference between the s4 and the s5 finale. in strike back, ladybug is broken and sobbing because she has lost the miraculous and feels like a failure who is all alone. but then she is buoyed up by her faithful partner and all of paris, who express unbreakable faith in her and vow to stand by her side. that was so powerful! showing that she doesn’t have to be alone, and she’s not supposed to be alone, and that part of being a hero means accepting help and working with others to achieve good goals. this message was a major part of marinette’s character arc in s4 and it’s something that was introduced from the very beginning and has been supported over and over in the show. but then in “re-creation,” she has no team, and she doesn’t need one. which … good for her, I guess? But then why did we have 5 seasons of “you and me against the world” if in the end it was always going to culminate with “I'm sure we can figure out a solution if we work together. You … and me”—referring to Marinette and Gabriel, while Adrien is literally locked in a blank white prison hundreds of miles away?

it just really kills me that in kuro neko, adrien gave up his ring under the assumption that chat noir was not needed—that he was entirely useless to ladybug. and then the narrative proved him right. ladybug did not need chat noir to defeat monarch. she just needed his ring. the writers confirmed in their recent commentary that they had planned a bug noire fusion from the beginning, and they intentionally sidelined adrien so that could happen—they even had to figure out an excuse for why he wouldn’t be there. so they traumatized him with nightmares of destruction and fear of akumatization to ensure that he would once again give up his ring and conveniently remained locked away while bug noire faced down monarch alone.

you could argue that it’s better for adrien to have missed the final battle anyway, since facing his own father would just be even more traumatizing for him. i understand that. (that’s the reason i liked that in the owl house, it ended up being just luz vs belos, and hunter did not have to face him again.) but at the same time it feels so narratively unjust that chat noir—who has been fighting against hawkmoth by ladybug’s side since day 1—has zero part in seeing his mission through to the end. even though it’s all about him. because while marinette is the protagonist, adrien is the connecting piece of the whole story. it’s always been ladybug vs hawkmoth, and adrien is in the middle of them, because he’s both ladybug’s partner and gabriel’s son.

you’d think, logically, that as the connecting piece, Adrien’s decisions would be vital to the plot. That he’d have the power to tip it either way. but instead he is completely stripped of his autonomy—literally, because he’s a senti, and also symbolically in the narrative, because he’s simply removed from the equation. Like, he’s still central to the equation but he has no say in it. It’s all about him but he’s not even present. Everyone is fighting for him but he can’t fight for himself. Everyone is speaking for him but he doesn’t even have a voice.

the finale kind of sets up marinette and gabriel as narrative foils of each other, showing how they have the same motivation—to make adrien happy. and they make the same decision to protect that goal. which is interesting, sure, but also kind of effed up to me? i’m not sure what to take from the idea of the protagonist mirroring the antagonist in this way. that’s been done loads of times, but in this context, for a child audience, i don’t know what to make of it. what kind of message that is supposed to send to the children who are the primary audience of this show? ladybug is a good guy, and in the end, she’s just like the villain because they both love adrien and want to protect him. so that’s why she agrees to tell everyone the bad guy was a hero. ????

that gabriel/marinette parallel leaves adrien to parallel emilie, which makes sense and is fitting but also just sort of … depressing and again, lowkey effed up. that adrien ends up with the same narrative role as a corpse in a coffin. almost, like, macguffin-esque—a thing that motivates the agents of the story but has no agency itself. despite him being so central to both sides of the main conflict, his decisions don’t affect the outcome. because he doesn’t have the option to make any. because he’s not even present. both gabriel and marinette made a life-altering decision for adrien, thinking it was best for him, without considering that what’s best for him is to know his own story and make his own choices. him getting the rings was somewhat relieving, but it also felt like kind of a slap in the face. because it’s like, “look, adrien’s free! he has his amok and no one can control him anymore!” but, like, how free is a person who is living a lie? will he ever experience true autonomy, or will his life continue to be dictated by the decisions others make for him? will the narrative give him decision-making power or will his role continue to be symbolic?

one thing that makes this all extra dissatisfying is that Adrien literally does not have the option of getting closure with his father, because he’s dead. maybe a dramatic reveal in the middle of the final battle would not be the best way to go about it, but now he can’t have any sort of closure. in the owl house, it didn’t feel necessary for hunter to be present in the belos takedown because he already had his confrontation with belos in graveyard possession scene. belos tried to physically control him, and hunter broke free, and spoke his mind, and as traumatizing at is all was, it was good for him to be able to do that. it would’ve been so nice if adrien also had that opportunity. if he did break free from his father’s control, either by overcoming akumatization or the control of his amok somehow. or if not that, if he were just able to have one honest conversation with his father about emilie. like he did with his alt self in the paris special. it was so significant for the writers that bug noire detransformed and spoke to gabriel as marinette. why couldn’t adrien have done that? Marinette is the one to tell Gabriel that Adrien wouldn’t want him to make the wish and hurt someone else, that Adrien has made peace with his grief, that he has learned to cherish his mother’s memory without living in the past. wouldn’t that be even more powerful coming from adrien himself? if adrien was part of that final confrontation just as himself, we could even still have bug noire play a primary role.

i get that adrien being part of the battle is a risk, since we saw in chat blanc one option of how it could play out. but we also saw in the collector another potential way adrien might respond to learning that his father is hawkmoth—charging into battle by ladybug’s side. especially if he was given time to process the idea beforehand. it’s not impossible. you’d just have to compose the scene and its buildup a different way. so honestly it feels sort of lazy to just remove him for the sake of ease? and also sort of a waste of narrative potential? the villain being the father of one of the main characters is such an interesting plot element. imagine if luke skywalker did not ever face darth vader. if he never even learned that vader was his father. or if he learned that fact after vader’s death, which was the result of a confrontation he was not present for.

of course, i know adrien is not the protagonist. marinette is. and of course i want her to be empowered by the story. but i’m getting a little tired of what i see as kind of cheap feminism in ML. like, girl power for the sake of visibility so the writers can pat themselves on the back about it, if that makes sense? this show does have so much good feminist power with a strong female lead who has realistic flaws and a big heart, who overcomes self-doubt and other struggles, and who has proven time and again to be a smart, capable leader who has earned the trust of everyone on her team. but all of that sometimes feels undercut by the narrative treatment of adrien—like he has to be put down somehow to elevate marinette. ML has subverted gender roles in a lot of ways by having ladybug lead with her brain while chat noir follows with his heart. and adrien has a lot of other strong feminine associations—the focus on his physical appearance, the expectation of perfection and obedience, his soft and gentle nature, his romanticism, etc. And one of the biggest ones is all the ways he is trapped, all the ways he is pushed down and made to be submissive. they even depict him as a princess locked in a tower, with marinette as the knight in shining armor to save him from the evil dragon (his father). with adrien in that traditionally feminine role, it would have been empowering to see him to take a leading part in his own liberation. instead, he was locked away both literally and symbolically in favor of a solo bug noire confrontation, so marinette could look like a girlboss in her cool new outfit, taking on the bad guy all by herself, even when it would (imo) fit better with the themes of the show and her own character arc for her to fight alongside her partner. but as Thomas Astruc said, “She's Barbie, he's Ken. You don't like it. I get it. It won't change. Anything else?” (X) it just makes me feel that the writers cared more about the cinematic value and feminist brownie points of that battle than its narrative significance—which i feel could only be increased by adrien’s participation. “all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing” … and that is all adrien was allowed to do.

i think a lot of fans at this point are just assuming that whatever feels dissatisfying/off will be fixed in s6. they’re trusting that the writers have a brilliant master plan that we just have to be patient and wait to see come together. idk, maybe i’m just tired. or a little jaded. i think there will be a lot to enjoy in s6, but i’m also prepared for disappointment. i honestly did not love many elements of s4 as well as s5, and i had expectations that weren’t fulfilled there either. i’ve felt let down by the writers many times now, so i expect that many of their future choices will  not resonate with me. but i still love ML, and I am eager to see how everything will unfold. i’ve also read a lot of other analyses of the s5 finale, and there are great points being made on many sides. this is just my personal interpretation and opinion. i did not like the finale when i first watched it, and after sitting on it for months and trying to evaluate my feelings and look at it logically, i still do not like it lol. if you do, great! this isn’t intended as a personal attack on anyone—just me expressing my two cents, which ended up being more like $20. thanks for bearing with me if you read all this ✌️

[marinetteplztakeabreak]

Im so in love with the narrative use of sentimonsters in ml???? And how it serves as a metaphor for parents who are Wrong??

You have Félix, who’s the most direct case of “parent thinks that having a child is like a little trophy and checkmark on the list and doesn’t want the child to actually be a person or exist or cause inconvenience.” His father literally didn’t see him as a person and based on the fact that he literally broke Félix’s miraculous he seemed to see Félix as either disposable or unbreakable. There was no sense that he needed to be loved or protected.

But then you also have Adrien, who Gabriel *theoretically* loves. I think Gabriel actually thinks that he loves Adrien as a person. But he has this idea that he can make Adrien happy through obedience alone. He thinks he can just order Adrien to be content or to have the same priorities as him. He calls Adrien melodramatic a few times even and it’s like???

Gabriel *theoretically* wants Adrien to be happy but it doesn’t cross his mind that it’s going to take more than him yelling “hey Adrien i order you to be calm and content.” And ordering Adrien to love the career Gabriel Chooses and love the girl Gabriel Chooses for him and the hobbies that Gabriel Chooses for him. And when that doesn’t work he decides that Adrien is just Beyond His Help and will be better only with his mom there.

And it’s like???? Very fun nuance with this idea of,,, you cannot yell or force someone into being happy,,, it doesn’t matter if you have their best interest in mind,,, if you never listen to what they actually want or see them as a human person then you’ll still be the villian in their story

And THEN!!!!! You have Kagami who’s a completely different case even though she starts with the same circumstance. Because Kagami IS treated like a person and has a good amount of autonomy. It’s just all Conditional. She can do whatever she wants with her life as long as its also exactly what her mother wants. And her mother doesn’t always explain why. And the thing with that is!!! It DOES work for a while!!!! She does trust her mother and actually talk to her about things. And she will defend her mother to the ends of the earth.

But all it takes is that One argument where kagami says “hey . please stop making me date adrien. i dont want to . its hurting me” and tomoe TAKES HER RING instead of listening. And its like. Thats IT.

It doesnt matter if you spent years making a foundation of trust in a relationship because Eventually your kid is Going to grow up and theyre Going to disagree with you on Something Eventually. Kagami was so ready to listen to whatever her mother had to say but her mom didn’t elaborate on anything she just basically said “okay if you wont listen without question you dont get to have autonomy” and of COURSE kagami’s gonna be like. Okay. Bye then.

And i just think it’s soooo cool how there’s these different Layers of “parents forgetting that their child is a person and not a tool for your own personal gain” and that ml shows how it can manifest in so many different ways and it shows that it messes ,up trust and relationships and then it also shows that the kids are all okay once they have love and support and someone who treats them as a person with autonomy

and theres this theme of “it is not too much to ask that you be treated like a human person . no matter how broken or how much of a disappointment you think you are. you are still in the right for demanding to be seen as a person.” And i just. I really love my senti kids i love them soooo much

this show really said “it doesnt matter what sacrifices your parents made for you, youll never be an object that they own” and i just,,, yessssss

[familyagrestefanblog]

I can only hope the new Paris special won't force Marinette/ Toxinelle into the role of the "chaotic baddest bitch" for superficial praise and keeping Adrien/ Griffe Noire as nothing but her unconditional support again and the "good" one. Because literally from the way the powers of Ladybug and Chat Noir work that's bullshit and the MUCH weaker story premise character wise.

Toxinelle has no offensive powers. She can be as smart as she wants in this scenario her powers are needed for AFTER the Butterfly akumatized someone to save the city, so she can prevent said saving from happening.

Griffe Noire would be required to first nuke the city so the butterfly can react to something and that means alternative Adrien/ Griffe Noire would - the longer all that went on - have needed to let go of all morality he once had and agree to become the moster of the two so SHE can remain level headed and get the Butterfly from the hero.

That's still alot of pressure and burden on Toxinelle's shoulders, being the one who has to be the light at the end of the tunnel for both of them to get their happy ending in a better world. But for the love of God, Adrien throwing out his humanity and only holding onto her and his dead mother

If this is to be believed:

Is ALOT worse and fitting as the conflict's heart piece.

I can only hope the special will be reasonable enough that Toxinelle will be the lesser evil of ShadyClaw and not waste so much story potential for another round of "Chloé the awful bitch". There is so much more interesting stuff you can do with Marinette than that, especially in the Toxinelle field.

Already as Ladybug Marinette showcases extremely dangerous anti-hero tendencies where she becomes so strategic that everyone involved stops being human beings or mattering in the moment because she needs to get something important done.

Most crucial examples are how Emilie Agreste's dead body was used as a mere inhuman tool by her in "Recreation" to defeat her insane husband, by cataclysming the lift and letting it crash down on Emilie to force Gabriel to stand still. Only though that Marinette then barely gave Gabriel enough time to throw the lift sideways and he only managed to save himself and Emilie from being crushed in the nick of time.

Or you know, all of Marinette's horrifying plan in "Destruction" that put several life in danger by sending Monarque to helpless civilians (even to ANNOY HIM) and Chat Noir was literally turned into a non-human object served on a silver plate to Monarque. He couldn't move an inch like a human is to be expected or even BREATH while Monarque went to grab for his throat while Marinette herself stood save and sound in the back because all she actually thought about in that plan were the Kwamis and herself (not even bringing up how fucked up it was to not even let Chat Noir know that her plan involves him having to possibly live with having cataclysmed a person.)

Everyone else MONARQUE had to keep save in her plan by not being the awful and sadistic monster they thought him to be. Tolerating all kinds of disrespectful bullshit and not using any Second chance or other miraculous powers besides voyage, or for the lols quartering Chat Noir's statue for example in a second's notice.

Marinette's plan in "Destruction" was horrifying and impossibly irresponsible in how she instinctively dehumanized everyone but herself and the Kwamis in it without noticing it and 100% relied on MONARQUE to be a decent and reasonable enough person underneath so she could get away with the insane endangerment and dehumanization of everyone but herself (especially Chat Noir).

Her final battle with Monarque had Marinette come back to this questionable morality when she pulled a low-blow anti hero move by dragging the dead spouse of the villain further into the fight, and risking to take any human dignity away from Emilie's remainings - who never wanted any of this being done in her name - by making it GABRIEL'S job to save and preserve her from Bug Noire.

Marinette 100% has some serious anti-hero tendencies in how she dehumanizes people sometimes as side-effect of her strategic mind and when she's either to caught up in her head or she thinks her goal justifies the means.

Jfc, quit the bullshit and let Toxinelle be the escalation of that side of Marinette because she and Adrien know their identities this time around - truly THEM against the world - and she's stuck in a position where Adrien was forced to let go of his humanity and other emotional attachments for their cause, is way too far gone by now and she has to make sure they actually win so all of this wasn't for nothing.

Give me a Marinette/ Toxinelle who made it out of her having been bullied alot worse and that's how she got into this, but by now she deep down fully regrets ever having started this and wished with every inch of her heart she could stop

but she knows she herself already hardly could live with herself after all this so she would never ask Adrien/ Griffe Noire to let go of the only hope he has at this point and live with the fact that he became an actual monster to preserve HER humanity, so she can save them both with the wish.

A Toxinelle who believes they already went too far to possibly go back and because of that she detaches herself from morality in the way it happened in "Recreation" with Emilie because in her (and Adrien's) mind they only have to win and everything will be okay again.

Adrien won't be a monster anymore and will return all together to the boy she once loved - and only still behaves like around Marinette or while thinking of his mother - and Paris, it's citizens, the entire world and THEMSELVES wont remember anymore what happened or that Toxinelle and Griffe Noire ever did any of this to them.

Give me TAHT Marinette/ Toxinelle please. For the love of GOD.

[uptoolateart]

Okay, so what I was saying in my long Gabriel analysis rings true. (Ha ha...rings....) He changed to be accepted by Emilie's parents.

Deep down, Gabriel probably relates to Marinette. In the story Feligami tell...Marinette could easily be the poor tailor, while Adrien is the heir to the empire, ready to throw it all away for her.

At some point, Gabriel got twisted and sold out his values. It was probably a gradual process, which explains why Emilie initially fell in love with him and then stuck with him despite her unhappiness with him later.

In one of her videos for Nathalie, she said Gabriel got stuck on things. He was good enough for her but not for himself.

When he looks at Marinette, he sees a little of what he used to be. When he gives her that speech about being naive in the fashion world...he's talking about himself, once upon a time. I think he once had a dream like hers, and he let it go, focusing instead on the wealth and status he needed to be good enough for his in-laws.

Now, he envies Marinette, even if he's unaware of it. That's the only reason a grown man would be fixated on her in that way. He's treating her the way Emilie's parents treated him. He has to break her and get her out of his son's life because if he doesn't - if she achieves her dreams of marrying Adrien and becoming a designer without selling out her principles - it means he could have done this too. It will force him to reflect and take accountability for his bad decisions...and he just can't cope with that.

Similarly, when he hurls abuse at Cat Noir about what an ill-mannered child he is, and when he goes to such lengths to control Adrien...I really think he's seeing a reflection of his younger self there too.

Underneath the pancakes and bad dancing and total insanity, the man is nothing but a writhing heap of regrets and won't see that he had so many chances to do things another way.

[116t98]

I remember reading an analysis post a long time ago (which I can’t find for the life of me 😩) that described how Lila’s design, particularly her hair, fits her character. The OP essentially said that when you look at Lila from the front, you think that she’s wearing her hair down, which can be used to visually represent how open/free a character is, but it’s not until you see her from behind that you realize her hair’s been tied up the entire time; she appears to be open and friendly, but in actuality, she’s keeping her true self closed off/kept away until she chooses to reveal herself to someone

Additionally, her full bangs, which covered her entire forehead and eyebrows, helped to demonstrate how closed-off she really is

She’s much more in control of herself than she lets on, as she’s only letting you see what she wants you to see

But now, she’s traded her long hair for a pixie cut with short bangs that show off her eyebrows. Whether it’s a recent change or if her hair’s always been short, I couldn’t tell you, but seeing her new look in these two episodes reminded me of that post

Up until this point, she had a façade that she relied on to hide her true intentions in plain sight, but now that’s gone (maybe it was never really there to begin with, assuming her hair’s always been short); she’s no longer putting up a front of friendly innocence to trick people into buying her lies

Why would she bother now that everyone who matters knows she’s the bad guy? Why would she bother when she’s got Chloé to act as her puppet and do all the publicly despicable stuff for her? Why would she bother now that she’s finally winning?

She’s always embraced her role as the villain, but now she’s doing so openly, with no façade to hide behind

This is who Lila really is, has always been, and she’s not hiding it from anyone anymore

[wackus-bonkus-maximus]

Same anon who just asked about why you placed Adrien as a 7 instead of a 2, only to look deeper in the reblogs of your ML enneagram post and see you already answered it haha!

In friendly defense of 2!Adrien, I’d argue that his reactions to being stressed coming off as more of a 7 rather than a 2 is actually a perfect reflection of the effects of his abuse; it’s fear that drives his non-confrontation tendencies rather his own nature. I think Risk highlighted that a bit in revealing how Adrien does desire confrontation, even if he doesn’t act on it.

(I have always found it interesting to consider the role that trauma/neurodivergency plays in shaping a character’s personality, since it’s one of the flaws I feel most personality assessments can’t really account for.)

I also think Chat’s arguments with LB were more like to be confrontational than avoidant (thinking of the times he’s called her out and his romantic pursuit being the primary indicators), up until she became the Guardian. So then with S4, I’d consider it to be a gradual relationship shift that leads to Chat no longer feeling safe and secure enough in his position to confront her the way he once did, which is why he only tries a bit in Kuro Neko before running, and then doesn’t try at all in Strikeback.

I hope this doesn’t come off as too preachy or anything, just wanted to share my 2¢! Cause either way you slice it, your Adrien has always been brilliantly written and incredibly in-character to me, so you’ve clearly got a rock solid understanding of his character. ❤️

hello november anon and sorry for the delay! thank you so much for the ask and also for going back and looking through my prev posts. you know my teacher heart loves it when you do the readings! 😌 also you're definitely not the only one who believes adrien is a 2 rather than a 7! and while i know there are good arguments for both sides, i'll explain in depth my position on adrien's personality.

part 1 of the ask:

so here are the reasons i think adrien IS an enneagram type 7

adrien's motivation seems like that of a 7 to me: he wants to experience everything and be satisfied in every way he can. if he had a disney princess "i want" song, it would be "i want to go to school, i want to make friends, i want adventure in the great wide somewhere., i want to have fun."

the literal first shot of him in the show (if we use origins as a starting point) is adrien running away. nathalie asks him to please reconsider, he knows what his father wants, and adrien says, "but this is what i want to do." according to the enneagram institute, "sevens do not see themselves as the center of a community or family, but as members of a free-floating band of fellow adventurers whose own enjoyment is enhanced by being with others." going to school and having a new experience with new people is what's going to enhance adrien's enjoyment of life - not being the center of his family unit or the apple of his father's eye.

a 2's motivation would be to be as loved as possible and to make themselves neeed by those they most care about. while adrien definitely shows a desire to be loved and needed, especially by ladybug, i think his primary desire is for experience, and it's this from which all his actions- not just characteristics - are based. take for example his reaction to getting his miraculous vs marinette's (also in origins):

adrien is excited and intrigued and ready to go, as a 7 would be when offered a new experience - and a new way to satisfy their desire to try everything. marinette, as a 1, is quite the opposite: she is being put in a situation where she must do something right or fail, and therefore is stressed tf out. while marinette's motivation to be good/perfect fuels her anxious reaction, adrien's motivation to experience everything and be satisfied fuels his thrilled and slightly reckless reaction. that's why he charges out into battle without listening to all the instructions; his motivation was to escape the restraints of his life and try something new.

in growth, enneagram 7's take on the positive traits of 5's. in stress, they take on the negative traits of 1's. i have seen adrien exhibit these behaviors throughout the show on many occasions!

according to the enneagram institute, "Sevens have fear about their inner world. There are feelings of pain, loss, deprivation, and general anxiety that Sevens would like to stay clear of as much as possible. To cope with these feelings, Sevens keep their minds occupied with exciting possibilities and options— as long as they have something stimulating to anticipate, Sevens feel that they can distract themselves from their fears." therefore, while one can argue that adrien's wealth of knowledge and fun facts is a result of everything gabriel has forced him to learn (mandarin, piano, fencing, medieval horse colors), we can assume he at least was interested in it - and that seeking new knowledge like a 5 kept him from lingering in his sadness.

"i'll help you learn mandarin marinette" "i'll show you how to fence marinette" "most people think henry iv's white horse was white my lady" "do you need subtitles my lady i speak several languages"

now as to how adrien moves to the low parts of type 1 during the show: i think the main examples of this are the instances he adopts rigid, critical, and judgemental characteristics, which is potentially unpleasant for anyone who has to be around him.

first up, adrien's akumatized forms: chat blanc, ephemeral, celesticat

i bring up the akumas because, though adrien isn't in his right mind (by hawkmoth's akumas), they are examples of adrien being in extreme stress.

as chat blanc, adrien wants to either right the world or destroy it for being wrong - the critical supreme judgement an unhealthy 1 is capable of. he lashes out when contradicted, and is quite ruthless even to marinette, who he loves, in the name of executing judgement.

as ephemeral, adrien seeks to control time. (however, this is probably the weakest example because adrien was being amok-controlled in this instance and was acting on shadow moth's will, not his own.)

i include celesticat because while this is an example of a "good" akumatization, adrien was still under so much stress that an akumatization was able to take place. yet even while being in "good" stress, adrien still shows characteristics of 1: perfectionism, righteousness, taking control of the situation. he literally turns into a pure white angelic being, an embodiment of perfection. it's what he believes he has to do in order to salvage the situation. it's one of the more healthier moves from 7 to 1 i have seen depicted in media and is entirely plausible concept under the enneagram's theory! this just goes to show the depth and richness of his character.

next, we will discuss adrien's various alter egos:

cat walker

i've said it before and i'll say it again; cat walker is another move from 7 -> 1.

as chat noir, adrien is at the height of his 7-ness. he enjoys the freedom that his miraculous powers and secret identity gives him, and uses it as a means of escape from the regular constraints of his life and obligations. then in kuro neko when ladybug slights him, she denies him the fulfilment and satisfaction in reaching his full potential as chat noir (e.g., being of equal importance on the team as her) that he should be allowed. of course he becomes hurt and angry! she's stepping on his core desire in life.

according to enneagram coach dr. tom lahue (my favorite enneagram guy ((also a 7)), "type 7's typically deal with anger by trying to avoid it or deflect it. that really is the anger type of a 7 - deflective. deflecting things away." that's what i believe cat walker is: a stress reaction, a deflection of his anger with ladybug. he deflects his painful emotions into something he thinks is positive; a new start.

adrien is usually so joyful and optimistic, but this was a huge blow for him. dr. tom says the best way for a 7 to handle this anger is to be "real and genuine" when coming to terms with it, what does adrien do instead? he turns to a new alter ego. he chases the experience of fulfillment, only he does so by adopting a persona who is serious and perfectionist. obviously this was neither what adrien or ladybug needed, and that is because cat walker is a stress reaction who adrien cannot sustain without continued levels of unhealthy self-denial. this is the hardest he has gone to 1 in the show and what it took to snap him out of it was a level of reflection, analysis, and objectivity (that this was an unhealthy behavior) indicative of a type 5 - and which shows his progression to growth.

2. aspik

one can argue that aspik is more proof of adrien being a 2 than a 7 actually, as his motivations for becoming aspik were to woo ladybug. however, the stress response of a type 2 is to move to the negative qualities of type 8, which is to lash out at those who they believe have taken them for granted.

according to the enneagram institute,

"Average to unhealthy Twos seek validation of their worth by obeying their superego’s demands to sacrifice themselves for others. They believe they must always put others first and be loving and unselfish if they want to get love. The problem is that “putting others first” makes Twos secretly angry and resentful, feelings they work hard to repress or deny. Nevertheless, they eventually erupt in various ways, disrupting Twos’ relationships and revealing the inauthenticity of many of the average to unhealthy Two’s claims about themselves and the depth of their “love.”

as aspik, adrien was never resentful of ladybug for taking him for granted or making him feel rejected. as aspik, his goal was never to make himself needed by her. as aspik, he maintained some extreme levels of optimism that ignored the rational conclusion that he should give up for several thousand time loops. as aspik, he was able to let go and displace his hopes in himself to someone else - and run off to his responsibility as chat noir with high spirits (though i'm sure the ladrien kiss helped)

3. griffe noire

this has got to be the most stressful stress reaction i've seen on adrien. and you might say "but wackus he looks nothing like a type 1" and i say "JUST HOLD ON

going back to dr. tom's analysis on type 7's in anger, he says, "7's typically express their anger indirectly, e.g., through sarcasm, like 5's - like 6's sometimes... but they quickly try to move on and reframe into a more positive way." griffe noire, rather than telling jokes and puns to lighten the mood, mocks and ridicules poor toxinelle who has not convinced me she doesn't have a crush on him. 1's actually do the same thing when they are unhealthy; they criticize and blame and nag others for not being up to par, and by directing his anger at his situation onto toxinelle, griffe noire is doing the same.

dr tom goes on to say, "in some cases [7's] might take impulsive actions to try to free themselves from this feeling of being trapped... engaging in frenetic escapism in behaviors or addictions or substances to try to distance themselves from those who are frustrated with them... or their own anger/pain in life." we have seen griffe noire engage in multiple frenetic behaviors while running amok (haha), all of which are clearly attempts to redirect his pain and anger/ keep it from consuming him. for example, griffe noire takes chat noir's cataclysm to the chest as though it's a game. for another, he openly threatens to destroy the entire world with his super cataclysm. and of course, he is constantly abusing his miraculous by over-exerting his powers in a way only adults should. yet all of these destructive behaviors are still adrien's way of escaping his normal life, and his everyday pain. it's almost like his self-destruction is his addiction.

and yet by the end, it took the introspection of type 5 for griffe noire to realize that his behavior was unhealthy. he observed, he listened, he showed an inquisitiveness that brought him back from the brink. and he also upgraded his outfit so if that isn't a type 7 path to growth i don't know what is!

now i know i won't have convinced everybody, so i just want to drop this section from the enneagram institute's text on misidentifying 2's and 7's:

Although both types are gregarious and enjoy being with people, their interpersonal styles are noticeably different. The Two... would like to be the heart and soul of a family or community, the best friend or confidant everyone comes to for attention, advice, and approval. Twos want to be significant to others and on intimate terms with them, although sometimes they go too far, meddling too much and being too solicitous to make sure they are needed.

adrien is not focused on being needed by anybody, not even ladybug (although due to his romantic interest in her, i can understand why people think so). being the heart and soul of the team is not what motivates him; primarily, i think he just likes having all the experiences he wouldn't otherwise get to have without being chat noir.

By contrast... Sevens do not see themselves as the center of a community or family, but as members of a free-floating band of fellow adventurers whose own enjoyment is enhanced by being with others.... Sevens may thus exhibit a certain generosity, although their motives may well have less to do with helping needier friends than with making sure that they themselves have a good time by having others around.

this isn't to say that adrien is just focused on having a "good time." i see that his enjoyment is amplified when he is surrounded by people he loves and cares for. he is motivated to have good experiences, and be fulfilled by trying everything, and becoming close to people and forming loving relationships is just a happy byproduct of that.

now there ARE several caveats to my analysis which provide potential arguments against typing adrien as a 7 - and which i can touch on briefly before i close:

adrien's abuse: i understand that trauma and anxiety can affect personality deeply. i'm not qualified to speak on this, or on how it should or shouldn't affect any personality type. i can only say that i think adrien has acted pretty consistently under stress as far as the show depicts

inconsistent characterization: i think we can all agree that ml won't be winning any awards for its consistency in characterization. which i know sounds contradictory to what i just said about how it depicts adrien under stress, but i think there IS a lot of discrepancy in this show and over the course of 9 years with different teams of writers all trying to execute one person's vision, inconsistencies are bound to happen.

thank you again for the ask, anon, and thank YOU if you have read all the way through! tell me your thoughts, if you make it down here - whether you agree/disagree or are just nodding along and letting me indulge in my enneagram brainrot! this is an entirely in-good-faith interpretation of mine, and i'd love to see other opinions if you have them!

[killervelveteenrabbit]

Is this the end of Chloe Bourgeois?

She’s been exiled from her city after a brief but disastrous run as its absolute ruler. Her father has disowned her. Her mother is humiliated by her and seems intent on making her burn for it, now that she has sole custody of her. Her co-conspirator in her grand scheme has dropped contact, forsaking her to run her own game. Her childhood friend, the boy she once regarded as hers and hers alone, has washed his hands of her. Her only friend, whom she treated as an underling for years, has turned against her. And her favorite bullying target has just explained to her, in no uncertain terms, that she’s lost everything and has no power over anyone anymore.

Even from a Doylist perspective, there seems to be no place for Chloe anymore. She no longer lives in Paris, and Lila/Cerise has usurped her position as designated beta-villain. Some would see this as an opportunity to write Chloe out of the series entirely, and few people within the fandom would shed tears. 

And yet, Chloe does have her fans. Some of them object to the apparent beatification of Marinette, in-universe and out, or that Mr. Astruc and the writers have flanderized Chloe into the series’ hate sink at the cost of her character arc. Others sympathize with Chloe as a victim of emotional abuse and neglect who doesn’t understand how to be a good person because no one’s shown her how (although I would argue that Armand and Miss Bustier at least tried).

Putting Chloe on a bus (or in her case, a jet) while singing “Ding Dong, the Bitch is Dead” seems too easy and neat an ending for her. I would like to see Chloe return in season 6 with the increased capacity for empathy that often comes from losing something precious. I want her to learn that “nice” isn’t just an affectation one puts on to impress people you like. I want her to understand that true heroism takes effort and even sacrifice. I want her to experience the give-and-take of equitable relationships. I want to see her tempted to fall into old habits and make a few bad decisions, but ultimately prove herself to herself. And again shifting from the Watsonian to the Doylist, I would like to see Chloe become a powerful foil and counter to the increasingly diabolical Lila/Cerise.

The problem is that I don’t see how this is possible. Audrey seems intent on controlling Chloe’s every move to prevent her daughter from causing her further shame. Even if Chloe did return to Paris, everyone there seemingly hates her. The only way I can see it happening is if Audrey got tired of Chloe and sent her back, not knowing what else to do with her... and if someone, against their better judgment, agreed to shelter her... and if she adopted a new name and changed her appearance so that no one recognized her as the recently overthrown child-dictator of Paris.

Reinventing Chloe offers far more creative potential than discarding her. Also, it would show the kids for whom this show was created what it means to be a truly good person, that sometimes it takes real effort and hard choices but that it’s ultimately worth it.