#Loki series positivity

[artist-issues]

Reminder that making Loki and Sylvie romantic was not a huge mistake. It was very smart and very in-character.

Not because they love themselves. That’s just a very clever writer’s play on the Loki-Trope-words.

Because she’s the most not-him person that there is. He wants to be the center of attention. She wants to live a quiet life left alone. He wants to take thrones and rule. She wants to topple thrones and rulers. He wants to tyrannize and enslave. She wants to set whole realities free. He sets traps to defeat his most hated foes. She just runs up and stabs them. He never shuts up. She’s stoic and quiet.

To people who believe it’s weird or gross because “they share DNA” or “they’re siblings…” Yeah. They share the same DNA, clearly—just like the Alligator Loki! 🙄 And they share parents, clearly—oh, except they don’t, because Loki’s parents were the kind of people to hide his true origins from him, and Sylvie’s parents were as different from that as you can get. They don’t share DNA, they aren’t the same gender, they don’t share memories or a similar history, and they don’t even share a name. They’re not like the same person, and they’re not like siblings.

The places where they’re similar? Like Sylvie’s chip on her shoulder against those who’ve wronged her? They’re all the places Loki has grown out of, or is in the process of growing out of when he meets Sylvie—and she’s been hellbent on avenging herself against those who’ve wronged her for her whole life.

He’s in love with her because of the—say it with me—“Idea of Potential” that she represents.

It’s just like how Ariel is in love with Eric, even before she gets to know him, because all she needs to know is that his character traits match up with everything she’s always hoped humans could be like. All Loki needs to know about Sylvie is that her character traits match up with everything he’s always wished he could be:

Confident instead of pretending to be confident; heroic instead of pretending to be heroic; secure in who he is regardless of what people think of him; able to focus on something bigger than himself; etc. Loki’s never been able to be those things and even convinced himself he’s proud of pretending—but Sylvie genuinely is all those things.

And Sylvie? Since she was stolen from her home and family she has made no connections, had nobody care about her, and focused only on her mission. If she ever had dreams outside of that, it probably revolved around the idea of freedom. Then in comes this guy who not only expresses care for her, but is the type of guy who doesn’t let anybody tell him what he is or what to do—he can relate to her feelings of hurt, and eventually, tries to help her grow beyond them, too.

They both represent something that the other person has always wanted to do or be, and they both challenge each other, and they both have this big existential hole in their hearts of “nobody wants me or likes me” to relate to each other with.

How is this a mistake? It’s literally the smartest way they’ve ever had Loki make a connection with someone outside his adopted family. (Mobius is cool and all but he’s a Thor-stand-in for this Loki, who’s been ripped out of Thor’s timeline.)

I’m going to stop beating the dead horse, but basically, if you think Loki and Sylvie as a romantic couple is weird, try and look at it the way it actually is, instead of superimposing “female love interest bad” or catchy Internet memes like “Loki Show Approves Incest” over everything 🙄

[emilythezeldafan]

just so you know, I'm still emotionally devastated over the Loki finale, it's just inward now /lh

(Loki Series Antis DNI)

[feral-sylki]

“Her name was Sylvie”

“Because we’re the same”

“See? We’re both selfish”

These three quotes have attached themselves to my brain and won’t let go and so I’m gonna chatter about them because I have so many thoughts and look. I am quite aware there is a focus on Sylvie with these. I can’t help it, she’s my favourite, her tragic backstory, insane grin and absolute commitment to her beliefs have captivated me

Okay so first one: “Her name was Sylvie.” Loki, with the very real possibility she’s been killed, holding the line for her. The identity she forged for herself, the escapism and the rebellion and the individuality that’s so important to her, he not only respects, but holds the line for her. You fell for yourself; no, because she isn’t me, she’s Sylvie. He cares for her, he fell for Sylvie, the fierce woman who teases him and challenges him and fights for life with everything she’s got. And he does reach Mobius. Mobius plays it off mockingly during the interrogation “is that with an ie or just an i?” but he remembers it and he uses it. He says to Ravonna, “Why didn’t you let me interrogate Sylvie?” Like it’s so important to have someone who cares, someone in your corner. There’s so much packed into four words

“Because we’re the same.” The flip side of the individuality is the fact that they are variants of each other and that’s such a fascinating and important and beautiful part of the narrative. Sylvie violently establishes her individuality and separateness from the Loki conglomerate at the beginning, but she choses to reassure Loki that he can do it by using their sameness. Like seriously I cannot express how amazing that character development is there. She’s now so much more comfortable in her identity because of him. Because of him, Loki, fresh off the sacred timeline, who was meant to “cause pain and suffering and death” only, he has helped her feel more comfortable in her own skin, by caring and just being himself. That’s awesome. And it’s also romantic as hell. Win win

“See? We’re both selfish.” Painful. Devastating. Beautiful. Harder to pin down why I like it so much because I haven’t had two years to chew on it yet but here we go let’s see. Ok so: it’s an extension of the we’re the same module, and even estranged from him, she’s still willing to accept what he and she share. There’s still care there; it isn’t what they had in season one, but it’s there all the same. She was horrified by the timeslipping and concerned for him, so, she takes him drinking. That’s my hedonistic girl. But the point being that she sees him in pain and is trying to care for him, in her way. So, we get there, conversation, and we get to the other thing that’s fascinating about it: at the time Sylvie owns the “you’re so selfish” when it’s thrown at her like “of course I’m selfish, I want a life, what’s wrong with wanting something?” which is amazing, because I really do love a character who is not only willing to admit to selfishness, but embraces it, owns it, takes pride in it, even. Like fuck yeah that’s my girl. But but but, and here’s the sticker: with this line “See? We’re both selfish.” we see that maybe it did get under her skin, the way that only he can really hurt her like this, precisely because of how much she cares for him, this vulnerability that she has with him, one of the few people who she’s taken down her walls before. But she also can see how low and rough the spot he’s in is right now and she cares about him and wants to help him, so it could be argued she’s using it like she used their sameness to reassure him last season. She says “we’re both selfish” in the same breath that she told him being selfish isn’t bad; so essentially: it’s ok, Loki, it’s okay to want things, we both wants things, it’s normal

So yeah, I’m completely normal about these characters this show and these quotes

[musclesandhammering]

Ok so obviously TVA!Loki is the most powerful variant, but I don’t think we give og!Loki enough credit for how strong he was (while confined to the timeline). Dude literally overthrew the Allfather and locked him in an enchantment for 4 years with no one knowing about it. That version of him was nerfed to hell in the movies and I’m still mad about it :/

[musclesandhammering]

I love this scene so much. I also want to point out- because I haven’t seen many people mention it- that this is not just Loki being dramatic. By reciting this quote, he’s testing He Who Remains. Because:

a.) In their original conversation, HWR said “I know it all, because I’ve seen it all.” implying that he has nearly infinite knowledge of everything that’s ever happened or will ever happen on every possible timeline. When Loki throws out a T.S. Elliot quote and HWR just looks at him blankly, it proves that he does not, in fact, know everything. Loki, on the other hand, did know it (probably because of the centuries he spent studying everything related to time). So even though Loki’s knowledge isn’t infinite either, this shows that his now surpasses HWR’s.

and more importantly:

b.) We know that Loki has been timeslipping and repeating this exact moment over and over again, and he reveals right after this that they’ve also had this conversation before. Loki most likely said this exact same quote in their previous conversation, and- if HWR is as all knowing as he says, if he really did “pave the road” for Loki’s new powers and everything else going on- then he would remember talking to Loki and hearing this quote the last time he timeslipped to him. But he doesn’t. And when Loki realises that, he realises that HWR isn’t as in control as he seemed- he’s not entirely pulling the strings anymore. And immediately after this realisation is when Loki reveals that he’s learned to pause time etc.

This quote is literally the moment the tables turn. HWR’s response to it was the turning point of their interaction. It’s when Loki confirmed that he’d surpassed HWR’s level of power and was now the one with the upper hand.

"We die with the dying. We're born with the dead." - T.S. Elliot

How is he so beautiful, an expert in mechanics, physics, and engineering, and he's quoting T.S. Elliot? How is any other character supposed to compare?

[sunflowerdigs]

Here's my thing (after watching some of the Thor movies). MCU has queer-coded the fuck out of Loki since his introduction because he has been a villain (it's at Jafar levels, honestly), and now that queer fans are reasonably asking them to put up or shut up because there's a man he's not related to that he's gotten extremely close with, MCU is like "Bisexual? Who is she? We don't know her. Genderfluid? Do they even exist? Male friendship is all that you should expect from us."

Of course, I'm grateful for what we've gotten because it's not nothing. The Lokius friendship has at least been allowed to exist as it is without negative commentary or jokes at its expense (in fact, much of the humor around it bolsters the romantic subtext, like the shots of people reacting to their adorable bickering). But still. Given the amount of feminine-coded and queer-coded characteristics MCU has given Loki in order to, honestly, make the audience other/dislike him from the jump and make their job as creators easier, Marvel could, at the very least, acknowledge Mobius as a positive romantic possibility for Loki. And stop pretending that people who see something romantic there are imagining things, as though Loki being attracted to a man is wishful thinking.

[feral-sylki]

The way Loki and Sylvie’s attitudes towards each other grows along with their attitudes toward their Lokihood is something I’ll forever be insane about. Like, the way we start off with the TVA’s angle and the whole ‘superior Loki’ thing, which Mobius uses to access Loki’s particular issues when it comes to self worth, to motivate him to track down Sylvie bc “this variant is better than you, and you can’t take it.” Loki has long felt like he must compete for any modicum of worthiness, and so it slides into his attitude right alongside his pre existing issues. He adopts it, and even repeats it to Sylvie when he meets her; he tells her of his exploits, of his going undercover and earning their trust, and demands, “I think that makes me the superior Loki, don’t you?” This, then, is the attitude he approaches meeting a new Loki under at this stage of the story: comparison, competition, superiority. And interestingly, Sylvie does a bit of this too, “here I was worried they’d found a better version of me” and all. Where did she get it from, and how much of it does she buy into? Is she using it to needle this TVA Loki because there have been others who came before? Questions without clear answers, but the very fact it’s there at all is quite fascinating.

But yes. Sylvie. Meeting Sylvie challenges this mindset. We are introduced to her side of things, which includes her vehement rejection of the identity. Loki’s reaction to her “don’t ever call me that”, initially focusing on “what, tech-savvy?” because her next words “No, a Loki,” and the venom in her voice takes him totally by surprise. His reaction is utterly fascinating. He narrows his eyes, juts his chin out, confusion and question written all over his body language. The idea of competition and a hierarchy among himself and the other Lokis fitted into the pre existing issues his raising instilled in him; but this, this total rejection of identity? Well that echoes more closely (for this Loki especially, who is coming directly off New York and all that led up to it) his very recent trauma as regards his true identity as a frost giant. Episode three is our major introduction to Sylvie and focuses greatly on her assertion of her individuality, and the way this mirrors Loki’s own journey leading up to this stage. Loki, too, violently attempted to reject the part of his identity that, when it was revealed, suddenly caused him a great deal of pain. Not that that means that being a frost giant is a bad thing to be; in much the same way that being a Loki is not a bad thing to be, they have each been taught hatred of the self. Loki was raised in Asgard, and absorbed a very negative idea of the Frost Giants (“what, that I’m the monster parents tell their children about at night?”). Sylvie’s status as a Loki is part of what ruined her life. The self loathing that they have both developed for themselves is a shared root

They become significantly less aggressive with each other as they spend more time with each other, mutual (or semi mutual) curiosity giving way to genuine affection as they both slowly deconstruct the issues they have associated with their identity. Sylvie opens up to Loki after travelling the apocalypse with him, when they think they’ll die by the lake on Lamentis. “Do you think what makes a Loki a Loki is the fact that we’re destined to lose?” An offering, an olive branch of sorts, to the other Loki across from her, peaceably, if sadly, acknowledging their shared identity, and their shared pain. And Loki responds in kind, choosing to reassure her, “No. We may lose. Sometimes painfully. But we don’t die. We survive.” And this touches Sylvie deeply; she reciprocates. Loki is famous for his silver tongue, but Sylvie is a very touch oriented person. She reaches over and touches him, with gentleness, exactly where the frost giant that revealed his true identity to him grabbed him. And this moment, in what they give to each other and see in each other, is a turning point for both of their attitudes towards themselves

Immediately following this, we’re brought back into the TVA, and the old adages are reiterated: notably, the moment when Mobius is trying to get a rise out of Loki and brings up the ‘superior Loki’ shenanigans, commenting that “I would have bet on her, but that’s what makes a horse race.” Now obviously this takes place in a scene where Mobius is deliberately needling Loki, and has also conveyed news of Sylvie’s (fake) death. But amidst it all, this line, and the look that crosses Loki’s face. He hears it afresh, and it is as if it is the first time he’s fully considered how insane that rhetoric is, how divisive, dismissive, dehumanising. No longer does he take pride in the competition. No longer is there satisfaction for him in the winning of the TVA’s game. “Her name was Sylvie,” is all he says, and with it, he forces the recognition of her personhood, in a system that views her as just another variant, one of thousands.

On and on, until they reach the stage where it is a positive affirmation “You do! Because were the same!” as this shared identity is an intrinsic part of their relationship to each other and their mutual love for each other, both as individuals separate from themselves and also as variants of themselves. But just as they are both Lokis and this shared identity is one they’ve both come to accept and respect as not a thing to be loathed or levelled up but a simple thing that is, so are they separate people who have lived separate lives. “Why aren’t we seeing this the same way?” is a heartbreaking line because she has finally after all this time been willing to open her heart to another Loki like herself, and through loving him come to love herself and her identity. They’re the same. But they’re not. And Loki’s heartbreaking return, “Because you can’t trust and I can’t be trusted” is acknowledgment that whilst they share a root and a soul, their lived lives diverged long ago and shaped them into very different people.

But regardless of the beautifully painful ways this falls out in the season one finale, they can never go back to how it was before they met each other. They are irrevocably changed, in how they see themselves. And that’s beautiful

[musclesandhammering]

Just curious, if I did a post about things I liked about the Loki series, would anyone be interested?

[indelen]

I'm fairly certain that Loki's story in the MCU is done in terms of character evolution, but I do think he was situated in a way that means he can pop up effectively anytime as a plot device whenever writers need one (and I'm fairly certain Tom will always be down for a cameo). Which is interesting with Young Avengers obviously being lined up.

Like imagine Loki being somehow instrumental to forming a second team of Avengers, but this time the intent and context is completely different. Not a villain to rally against, but a god guide though time and space? The irony of it, the circularity.

[andy-888]

Can we talk about how Mobius seems like the only TVA agent that likes mundane people things like games, jetski, pie... like he has hobbies??? And interests apart from the TVA??? Ik it seems like nothing but every MinuteMen I saw is so mission focused and when they realized the truth they were like "we need to save the TVA" like I don't think I've seen anything like Mobius. Casey didn't even know what a fish was. The only exception i can think of is Ravonna, who collected objects from missions

[musclesandhammering]

This is such great meta. I’m a huge series anti (and an even bigger s*lki anti), but this was one of the parts of the show that I actually really loved, because it meshed perfectly with my long-held interpretations of his motives. So, of course I’m gonna ramble about it.

I’ve always thought that Loki kept seeking a throne for several reasons:

What he really wanted was love and respect and acceptance, and- given the culture he grew up in- he associated all of that with kingship. Especially considering how he struggled with those things as an individual, he probably thought being king was the only way to achieve them.

His “birthright” has always been an anchor for him. He always felt like such an outcast, but the one thing that helped balance the scales for him (socially speaking) was the fact that he was in the line of succession. That’s like the one thing he had going for him, so it’s what he’d always cling to. So ofc when his life started falling apart, he clung to it even harder.

He always wanted to be Thor’s equal so badly, and sometime in the first movie he realised that, no matter what he did, he’d never stand next to Thor as an equal hero. So he decided that he would be Thor’s opposition- the villain, the competition- and maybe then they could be equal and opposite.

He feels so low on the food chain, so to speak, that he’s scrambling for some sort of leverage. Especially after everything that happened (having everyone against him in T1, the Thanos stuff, being an outlaw in T3, etc) he’s posturing to make himself seem more intimidating and in control than he really is, because internally he feels powerless.

So basically it’s: I don’t want to be king, but that’s the only way I’ll ever be respected, and it’s the only way I’ll ever be Thor’s equal, and it’s all I have, and it’s a defence mechanism.

I completely agree with you, though. He never wanted to be a king- he felt like he needed to- but in the show he’s realising that being a king was never going to help him anyway.

All of this also gives a nice meaning to Coulson’s line “You lack conviction.” All the fellow stans interpret that as “Loki was forced to invade New York and was trying to sabotage it!!” (which I strongly disagree with), but this meta pushes the real reasoning more into the territory of “Loki was doing what he thought he needed to, but deep down he was apathetic about the whole thing.”

👑

[chokemedaddyloki]

Is their love the greatest power in the universe because I swear my heart just stopped. 💚🗡️🌌

😭😭😭

[lucianalight]

Probably everyone noticed this but I still want to talk about it. I really liked the loom and thread symbolism for managing time and timelines in the Loki series. It's a nod to Norse mythology and the three Norns who weave the fate and destinies of everyone at the foot of Yggdrasil, the tree of the world.

The spaghettification, inaccurate as it was shown, adds to this symbolism. The threads that hold the universe come apart as it gets destroyed. And that scene of Loki trying to grab them and hold them and not being able to vs the end when he is carrying all the threads and nourish them with his magic as they come alive and make the world tree. Just like how Norns use a well to nourish Yggdrasil.

Some threads are even made of the fabric of his cape and unweaving it.

Which is also a nice contradiction between weaving stories, unchangeable and fixed as they were with loom in place, and letting the stories unravel and develop as changeable and ever growing as branches of a tree.

[musclesandhammering]

I looove this analysis. And I loved that scene. The only thing is I think they should’ve made it just a tad less obvious for the audience. Like if we as viewers had fully believed him only for Mobius to come in at the last second and call him on his lie… that would’ve made Loki a bit easier to take serious while also emphasising how well Mobius knows Lokis.

And this just illustrates my frustration with the entire show, really: I actually like 90% of what they did with it, I just hate the way they did it.

I love this scene! Even though I thought it was too obvious what Loki was trying to do, the writers did a great job showing the manipulative side of Loki!

Slinking around Mobius

Whispering in Mobius’s ear about how he needs assurance to continue working for the TVA

Leaning in close to convince Mobius that he only trusts him to give Loki what he wants, 

Loki was playing into Mobius’ protective side. 

Loki: *whispers* We’ll need to speak to the Timekeepers at once. They’re in graver danger than we realized.

It’s all very “devil-on-your-shoulder." 

The lighting is A+ as well. It’s shadowy and dark and casts Loki in an ominous(?) flickering light. Then the subtle music ties it together because it reflects Loki’s sneakiness and him whispering into Mobius’s ear. 

It reminds me of the "Thor, it’s madness.” scene from Thor 1! Thor’s having a temper tantrum over being forbidden from invading Jotunheim, and Loki slinks out from behind a column to talk to his brother. 

Loki assures Thor he’s on his side and that facing the Frost Giants is the only option. Loki plays into Thor’s fears that the Jotuns will attack again, possibly with an army. Loki wants Thor to believe that Loki thinks he’s right.

Two seconds after the idea gets planted in Thor’s head, Loki says, “Thor, it’s madness,” fully aware that once Thor has a plan, he’s impossible to stop. Loki predicted that Thor would mess up relations with Jotunheim, get in trouble, and delay the coronation. Thor played directly into Loki’s hands!

Of course, since Mobius knows Loki’s tricks, he can catch himself before he falls into the trap. Loki was *this close* to convincing Mobius. He didn’t anticipate for Mobius to call him out on his lies.

I love that the Loki series brought back the sneakiness!

[jocelynmakenna]

I'm. I'm fucking broken. I just watched the Loki finale. Loki's journey from the first episode to now. His glorious purpose, to be the king of the gods. He went from being power hungry to just wanting to protect his friends to understanding what a wonderful glorious burden his true role is. To protect everyone and everything. What a character arc. What a show.

And I'm gonna be so fucking mad when the next project fuckiNG RUINS IT GOD DAMN

[circuitsofgold]

I’ve been doing some thinking about Loki and his relationship with Sylvie. And as a disclaimer, I ship everything and nothing at the same time. Yes, I am aware that is a paradox. I ship Sylkie in a romantic sense and in a platonic sense. Same with Lokius. Although I like the idea of all three of them together in both a romantic and platonic sense.

But I think Loki wants her to be a part of his life and he wants the best for her because she's him. He sees so much of himself in her. The bitterness and the anger. The heart rending loneliness he felt everyday of his life. Yes, he had a family and "friends". ( I say "friends" because they were Thor's friends who tolerated him because he was Thor's brother. ) He had a home while she didn't. She didn't have Frigga to teach her magic. She doesn't want a throne so much as she wants a home.

As he moves away from that, he wants to help her. Wants to share his found family and home with her. But the obstacle is that that found family is the TVA. He's aware she's trying to build a life in the 1980s and I think some part of him is happy for her. But at the end of the day, he's selfish. ( Though I do like the idea of a sort of compromise. She gets her life in the '80s and he visits her. Claiming he's checking in on her and they catch up on her break. )

I saw a post earlier saying she was "emotionally stunted" and "childish". And you know what? She is. If only because she was taken from her life at an extremely young age, say around 7 or 8, by human standards. I's been long enough where she doesn't remember her life on Asgard. Has no memory of a mother? Since escaping from the TVA, she's hidden in apocalypse events, just trying to survive. That's not exactly the best place to learn social skills. ( Though she apparently has excellent customer service skills if her McDonald’s badge is anything to go by. Though coming from someone who works in customer service, you learn how to act the part very quickly. )

Loki wants the best for her because he wants the best for himself. ( I also think she reminds him a bit of Thor before Thor "went soft". ) She's a part of his "found family".

This has been an incoherent mess. But I think about these two characters a lot. Would I like to see them kiss again at some point? Sure. But only after a heck of a lot of development with both characters in that direction. But at this point, I’d be happy with them just existing together.

If you've read this whole post, thank you.