#Jirochou

[courtesanofdeath]

JUMP MV: Gintama × serial TV drama (Togenyo Alien)

[suchine-toki]

(A Totally Serious) Gintama Dads Tier List

Why does this series have so many dads help-

S

Isaburo: Despite his outwardly stern demeanor, he understands Nobume's past traumas and helps her cope with them, while also educating her on the harsh realities they face. He named her after his deceased daughter and cared for her as such, even texting her frequently and buying her donuts.

A

Shouyo: He's a father figure for several characters in the series, demonstrating unwavering love and acceptance, and provided a supportive environment for them to grow. His memory and teachings remain a guiding force for his students. Reason for losing points: He left his kids concussed and dumb.

Gintoki: He consistently shows protectiveness towards Kagura and Shinpachi, often putting their safety and well-being above his own. He's playful with them, teaches them important life lessons, and accepts them unconditionally. Despite his flaws, Kagura and Shinpachi love him very much. Reason for losing points: Has several mental health issues and his feet stink.

Zenzou's dad: He became a father figure to many children as he taught ninja arts and played kick the can with them. Many of his students attended his funeral, showing how loved he was. Reason for losing points: Sold Zenzou's JUMP collection to buy p*rn.

Matsugorou: Also known as Musashi, he's Ikumatsu's dad. It's shown that despite their poverty they were very happy together, until he lost his memory trying to save a boy from drowning. He saves her daughter and reconnects with her. Reason for losing points: He wears a jacket and fundoshi.

B

Jirochou: He abandoned his daughter Pirako because he felt compelled to protect what his friend Tatsugorou left behind after he died. His subsequent actions reflect a desire for redemption and a willingness to spend more time with her. Reason for losing points: Was too chicken to have a threesome with Tatsugorou and Otose.

Abuto: He's not the stepdad, he's the dad that stepped up. Although he's not exactly a parental figure to Kamui, he has been by his side since he was a kid and cares about him a lot. Kamui was even shown to hesitate attacking him. Reason for losing points: He's losing his will to live.

C

Shimura Ken: Not much is known about him, only that he died leaving Tae and Shinpachi with a huge debt. Although he cannot be blamed for dying from an illness, he didn't take any measures to prevent his children from suffering because of him. Reason for losing points: His name is a parody of a comedy actor.

Koshinori: Since the heir of the Yagyuu clan had to be a man, instead of changing the rules, he forced Kyuubei to conform to that identity. He later decides to let her live as she sees fit. Reason for losing points: His height is 122 cm (4'0").

Umibouzu: He has a complex relationship with Kamui and Kagura. His absence leaves a void in their lives and creates feelings of abandonment, even if he'd reasons to do so. His two children ended up finding substitute father figures elsewhere. Reason for losing points: Stopped a 3 day fight to take a dump.

D aka Betrayed their students tier

Jiraia: He takes on the role of Tsukuyo's mentor and trainer, but his influence extended beyond that, manipulating her emotions and exploiting her vulnerabilities. Their relationship becomes increasingly abusive and toxic until she breaks free of it. Reason for losing points: Bad skincare habits.

Utsuro: Despite his mentorship role, he manipulates his students' emotions and desires for his own ends, creating emotional turmoil within them as they uncover his true intentions and the extent of his malevolence. Reason for losing points: His existence.

[gintama-polls]

[ghostiekins]

Pirako+Jirocho - The 4 Devas Arc Flowers: I don't actually know if there's a name to these flowers but they're pretty

edit: I've been informed they're benibanas/Japanese safflowers thank you @/alexiethymia!!

[sankatsuka]

Otose, Jirochou and Tatsugorou: Microcosms in Gintama

Back to being delusional and crazy about Takagin... I've always noticed some similarities between Jirochou and Takasugi, but because the narrative kept comparing Tatsugorou and Jirochou to Gintoki (+ the white hair), it was hard to decide what to make of it...

But now I would go on to say The Four Devas arc feels like a microcosm of Shogun Assassination arc. Otose, Jirochou and Tatsugorou could very well be a microcosm to the entire Gintama. I think there's a lot to say about Gintoki and Takasugi's characters based on this.

Warning for spoilers and romantically implied Takagin/Gintaka.

Edit: Added another microcosm I found. Marked *.

I don't even feel like this needs to be explained, but Jirochou and Takasugi have pretty much the same gruff, constipated, distant personalities, except of course Jirochou came from a better family. Not to forget the heights and the similar choices of kimonos. The narrative never makes any points on how similar Takasugi is to several characters, but it definitely is there. Especially if Gintoki often picks a fight with them (looking at you Hijikata and Umibouzu). But I think Jirochou is the biggest culprit for being most similar to Takasugi, often having the same intense sequences with Gintoki.

There are two big similarities in the setting and events of The Four Devas arc and Shogun Assassination arc -

Both involve an attempt at overthrowing the authority;

One takes place in Kabukichou, and the other in the entire Edo.

Whether its coincidence or not, the cast that appear in The Four Devas arc and Shogun Assassination arc don't appear in the other (aside from Yorozuya, of course). If you can believe this was intended as a microcosm, then this means Otose, Jirochou and Tatsugorou have big roles to play in Gintama's overall narative.

So if Jirochou's personality heavily references Takasugi, who represents Gintoki? Or is there a third character to represent Otose?

Nope, my take is that Gintoki represents BOTH Otose and Tatsugorou. The narrative clearly points out the parallels between Tatsugorou and Gintoki, but the ones with Otose are never said. In fact, Gintoki has many similarities to women but the narrative never points it out (aside from Tsukuyo, but even then Gintoki belittles himself compared to her). It's probably because it's weird to compare a good-for-nothing guy to a woman in the first place.

But it wouldn't be weird if Gintoki was meant to represent a son to Otose and Tatsugorou, considering how they never had a child and Otose took him in. In a way, you could say he has a half of Otose and a half of Tatsugorou--

Gintoki has also coincidentally had two occasions where he is associated with halves. The first is in the Soul Switch arc, where the soul in the cat corpse Dozaemon with half of Gintoki's soul embodies the losses Gintoki suffered. The second is in Takasugi's death, where for some reason, he says he wished he could have shared a drink with him, even if it was half the number of times they fought.

These halves can be traced back to Otose and Tatsugorou. Dozaemon was highly characterized by wanting a place to belong and found it in Tae, which very much resembles Tatsugorou who is heavily implied to long for a place as a lone wolf and found it in Otose.

Then, Gintoki's words to Takasugi about sharing a drink seems very much like why Otose opened her snack bar in the first place - so anyone, no matter how different, can have a drink together. Maybe it's coincidence, but if Gintoki chose to say half + sharing a drink, then this could be one half of him speaking (Otose).

Another implication of Otose's half in Gintoki is in the amnesia arc. If it took away all memories, including the bad ones, from Gintoki, then what was left was just his soul as it is. He acts surprisingly more polite and empathetic compared to his usual self that even Tae is captivated. He also naturally cares about everyone's feelings around him, apologizes a lot and chooses to leave Yorozuya so as to not burden Shinpachi and Kagura any longer. Gintoki's base soul has always been someone who cares deeply about people, which we see demonstrated in his own way in the rest of the series.

Tatsugorou's traits in Gintoki are obviously that he's a lone wolf who gets along with everyone, but never gets too close and keeps his past a mystery. Otose's traits in Gintoki are how he easily acts like her proxy, always bringing people together. There is that huge parallel of how the entire Kabukichou came together to protect Otose and the city and to fulfil Gintoki's wish in the end. I would simplify their traits in Gintoki as wanting a place to belong (Tatsugorou) and sharing a kindred spirit (Otose). It's probably why the Gintoki in Hijikata's body isn't so different from the usual - because the soul and some memories that defined it were still there.

There is the argument that Tatsugorou would act like Gintoki without his memories, of course. But Jirochou describes Tatsugorou as chivalrous rather than an idiot who would protect everyone like Gintoki. So I'm inclined to think that Tatsugorou doesn't have the unconditional loving side for everyone that Otose has and acts mostly on his justice. He does get into physical fights for no reason.

Now that I have established Otose, Jirochou and Tatsugorou's traits in Gintoki and Takasugi, the events in their past and the Four Deva arcs has more to say about their characters:

Tatsugorou dying because of Jirochou, and Jirochou making a promise to protect Otose and Kabukichou | Takasugi making Gintoki promise to protect Shouyou, who breaks it and kills Shouyou to protect both

I know, the most obvious parallel is how Tatsugorou died in Jirochou's arms. But I'm taking a more psychoanalytical approach as always, as this event became what changed Jirochou immensely. I would think that Shouyou's death would be the parallel to this, given how it changed Takasugi.

Jirochou and Takasugi (partly) letting their guards down was what caused these tragic events to happen. Jirochou distances himself from Kabukichou and lives out the guilt of having let Tatsugorou die for someone like him, and Takasugi lived on suffering the guilt of having made Gintoki bear the cross of killing Shouyou. Both even feel like they were the ones who killed Tatsugorou and Shouyou.

Not to mention how Takasugi literally threw away his humanity in the Silver Soul arc to protect his teacher, just like Jirochou metaphorically doing so to protect Kabukichou. And Pirako comments how Jirochou really couldn't care less about the city and only did so for one woman. This is the same mindset Takasugi openly fights with in the war, fighting only for Shouyou, but later that reason reveals itself to be Gintoki.

Both Jirochou and Takasugi threw away their humanities to make it up to the man they admired who died protecting them (Tatsugorou and Shouyou), and make the person they love happy through that (Otose and Gintoki).

I would even go as far as saying the Tatsugorou half of Gintoki died alongside Shouyou at that time. There is the symbolism of how all three students created their graves. After all, Gintoki lost his home, something Tatsugorou always wanted for himself. He started wandering around afterwards, distancing himself from people but still protecting them. Even being willing to give up his life for strangers, like Otose sacrificing herself for everyone.

It's as if during this period, he closed the part of him who wanted a place to belong entirely but not the rest of it. He did say he no longer wanted to carry the burden of belonging somewhere with something important--

As he expresses it openly to Kamui 500+ chapters later, he had tried to live on empty and not let people in anymore to protect himself. But when he met Otose behind Tatsugorou's grave only did Tatsugorou's half start to come back alive, fighting once again to belong somewhere.

Gintoki does after all promise to stay somewhere to protect someone, despite having avoided belonging anywhere until now.

Jirochou attempting to kill Otose for his plans of protecting Kabukichou | Takasugi fighting to kill Gintoki to go through with his plans of toppling the Bakufu

Another big similarity here is how both Jirochou and Takasugi are willing to kill someone they love for the apparent greater good. Jirochou critically injured Otose, and Otose was at great risk of dying.

This emphasizes how Jirochou and Takasugi always play the roles of villainous anti-heroes. We learn in the Liberation Army arc that what Takasugi was trying to do was play hero and make a miracle to avenge the dead, even though it was impossible.

Something I also have to talk about is the romantic feelings that this trio captures. Jirochou's feelings for Otose seem to have come about from the way she loved everyone equally, even never giving up on straightening Jirochou up no matter how much he misbehaved.

As I discussed in previous posts, Takasugi's romantic feelings for Gintoki seem to stem from a similar place of unconditional love. It makes me think that gruff guys ware drawn to gentler, unconditional people who can see through their facade, contrast them and express their love for people when they themselves can't. Someone who wouldn't give up on them.

Even Gintoki being the one to keep getting back up to stop Takasugi on his rampage, like Otose had done with Jirochou.

With how the story teases Otose with Jirochou too, I'm inclined to believe that Otose did harbour some romantic feelings for him. But she was more attracted to Tatsugorou, who shared her values of being present with people, unlike Jirochou who distances himself all the time. There is a scene where Otose notes how Jirochou and Tatsugorou communicate with their fists, and she looks from far away as if it isn't a world she is part of. A way to see this, could be that if Otose understood Jirochou better, she may have fallen in love with him first.

Whereas Gintoki already knows how important it is to communicate with your fists, that it's what he uses to wake Takasugi up in the end. The chapter even being titled Fists.

This is what makes both Otose and Tatsugorou's halves in Gintoki important. Without Tatsugorou's traits, Gintoki would have never been able to see eye-to-eye with Takasugi. Gintoki probably knew Takasugi better than Otose knew Jirochou because of this too, which is a recurring theme in the story of how they can just tell each other's thoughts. And without Otose's trait of loving people and never giving up on them, Takasugi would have never found a place and fell in love with Gintoki.

And in Takasugi's final moments, if Gintoki was speaking with the half of him who is Otose - then it could mean that part of him fully reciprocated Takasugi's feelings.

Takasugi plays strong roles to both halves - he was the one who encouraged Gintoki to just do what he wanted honestly and with all his heart at the start (here, just a theory though), and he was the one who fought to his death for his sake fully committing Gintoki's place within Takasugi's soul in the end. It's just that only one half of him could be honest, but it doesn't mean the other didn't love him either.

In the end, Jirochou's conclusion is to properly return to his life, to stop being bound to a promise and pay attention to what really matters now in the present. This is similar to Takasugi's conclusion in the Liberation Army arc: to live life as just a human and to face and accept everything that's happened.

The ending of the Four Deva arcs involve Jirochou reuniting with Pirako, and so does Takasugi's ending reuniting with Matako.

*(Another strong microcosm is in the Invasion arc: Jirocho made his entrance with a speech about the role of men in Kabukichou - how they become cowards when they can't protect one woman, so with that title, they will keep roaring about their chivalry till their death. And this is exactly what Takasugi does both as a terrorist and at his death, playing hero and never divulging the real reason why. Sadly I can't add anymore photos - this speech is in Chapter 622.)

I did talk about Tae being drawn to instances where both halves were showing. I personally think the reason Gintoki and Tae aren't together is because of how they are too similar as people, both being a combination of Otose and Tatsugorou instead of one. Both of them are kind caring people but also terribly cunning, that it isn't an exaggeration to say Tae IS the female Gintoki and vice versa. It's even emphasized in how they coincidentally have many similar character traits (having stalkers and chibi rich kid one-eyed simps, being a useless woman and man). Even the teasing of how Tae seems to return the feelings of many people like Gintoki.

As halves, I do think they would have been together. But as wholes, they probably understand each other better than anyone that they want to care about everyone (hence why they aren't together).

They can only really be with someone who is happy with them just the way they are. Even Kyubei being happy just seeing Tae smile, even if it could be taken in a romantic context of reciprocating Kondo's feelings. Kyutae was heavily implied to be mutual and canon if Kyubei was a man (grrrr). Takagin feels mutual but just won't happen even if Takasugi was alive because of their clashing natures.

Yup, I'm pretty much convinced Takasugi->Gintoki was 100% implied romantic at this point. Pirako commenting how Jirochou was doing all of this for the woman he loved and didn't care about the town, Takasugi having parallels to almost every man canonically in love...

Takasugi saying he can just a bit honest about doing what he wants to do and not entirely. This motherfucker.

(Gin-san is my honest reaction to him.)

[hymnism]

"I heard Otose was keeping a mad dog around..."

[kalkydra]

uh oh!!!!!

[sebfreak]

JUMP MV /『銀魂』×『桃源郷エイリアン』| serial TV drama

[craftydragonperson]

Happy Birthday Terada Ayano Otose 🚬

[courtesanofdeath]

i'm sorry i'm never not thinking about this every time i see jirochou and housen

[suchine-toki]

I've been thinking for a while about the similarities between Jirochou and Tatsugorou, and Gintoki and Takasugi. How both pairs, despite fighting a lot, were good friends who wanted to protect the same things, and how important the memory of the other was to keep moving forward.

[gintama-polls]

[joelletwo]

wrestling with the 4devas bitchslap again to convince myself its fine if graveyard wins the best ep tourney: it's not the other bloggers who are wrong, it's me

not a complete response to but definitely in conversation with and asking some of the same questions again as @reductionisms's 4devas essay, which tries to square gintoki's "life doesn't need to be fun, i just need you to live" being a series-sanctioned message he's given to villains as an arc-concluding moral continuously up until 4devas with it here being an incorrect worldview that needs to be (physically) corrected by shinpachi, the straightman tonal signpost of gintama

a conflict i have been perplexed by ever since i got to this line on my first watch a year or two ago, since i've seen this line before! all over fandom! as part of the general "dont [bottom text] kill yourself" motivational messaging of gintama that i love!

and, briefly, when i hit 4devas i was also in the middle of being really frustrated by the new arc pattern i was seeing crop up: i loved the villains-turned sympathetic-turned someone worth saving by gintoki tune of the first half of gintama, but it fell massively flat for me in Yoshiwara in Flames, where i was never convinced to be on housen's side but had to watch him get a heartwarming redemptive death at the side of the woman he abused anyways.

then shortly after i had the same exact experience in Red Spider with jiraia, and i thought, if this is what gintama is gonna do with its shitty dudes from now on im gonna quit the fucking show. and then shortly after that i met jirochou and saw him cut down otose the woman he loved (under a raining sky!!! the fucking sky motifs!!! the signpost im about to watch a dude be shittily violent to women and be expected to feel sorry for him about it) and saw too much red to really take in the rest of the arc level-headedly or care about anything in it lol.

so it was written off in my mind as the 'otose almost gets fridged' arc until i rewatched it this week. then i had to remember, oh yeah, there's a ton of political maneuvering fakeouts in this arc that i never actually squared back with how the plot presented itself prior to the reveals, so i'd still been thinking about the "fakeout" plot. then i read the manga version with all the "truths" in mind from the start, and finally i felt like i could understand what this arc is doing a little better.

(way) tldr (4.4k words. sorry): do i love this arc? eh. do i still hate it? eh. but it's doing stuff!

first, i was able to see an echo in all the "actually i was planning to betray you the whole time" "actually i was working to help you the whole time" plot beats of what sorachi does with the larger edo/universe story further into the back half of the manga. if i ever sound like i didnt enjoy or wasnt convinced by the execution of these "reveals," it's because i didnt and wasnt, lol. but it's fun that he had fun with them i guess.

the arc starts with pirako ingratiating herself into yorozuya, then having a classic "bump into you and pretend to be injured to extort you" encounter w her dad's gang. to resolve this without escalating into violence, gintoki... does it back to them, which is really funny. but thus the tone is set for the arc of: DISHONEST APPROACHES TO CONFLICT.

pirako isnt honest about her overall intentions the, like, seven different times that she "admits her real ones." kada plays at peacekeeper in the devas while being the ultimate person scheming to get the upper hand over everyone else in the end. (she's also secretly harusame, evil amanto outsider who acts as a unifying force for the kabukicho fighting itself to band together against and expel: sorachi's favorite move! the problem was never internal, it's the shadowy REAL antagonists who infiltrated us)

jirochou and otose are ultimately doing a pantomime of conflict to try to keep temperatures down and escalations from breaking out, so no one they care about has to get hurt. gintoki doesn't know this until the end, but he follows in their footsteps after his encounter with them in the graveyard: he plays at having given up to the rest of yorozuya so they'll leave and escape the coming kabukicho war, the same thing otose was trying with him. it fails both times. i'm really not sure why gintoki and otose thought it would work, honestly. they should know their kids are stubborn as hell.

but gintoki is in a bind because of the things he needs to protect, and all of his actions are primarily in service of that, to the detriment of how he'd prefer to act if he were less restricted. he is unsurprised and unoffended to hear saigou is only willing to warn them, not help them, because her son is in danger if she acts directly. all four devas are, seemingly, being mutually restrained this way, holding back even when blatantly manipulated to do so. the other constant of this arc: everyone is dishonest, and no one wants to risk losing what they have.

gintoki understands that! of course! he's had to make that calculus before, after all :)

and this arc is just one big cliff scene echo: the entire graveyard scene pushing gintoki to emotional regression because he thinks he's losing another parent figure, one he's just seen the Gintoki Figure of the arc cut down, no less (takasugi stolen valor when he goes berserk against him and only ends up uselessly bleeding out on the ground about it, honestly). otose goes into this willingly so gintoki can live. he accepts this decision because he values protecting her values (her kids living on) and is briefly broken by it (the story says, before giving him shinpachi to "put him back on track"). prior to the bitchslap, after saying he just wants them to live, even if it has to be without him, he says:

i dont have a good understanding of when we start getting reveals of gintoki's backstory versus foreshadowing because i went into gintama already knowing most of it, but definitely by the recent red spider where we get our first real look at (or really, first listen to) shouyou. but here we actually get some of what gintoki felt about it, which he keeps closely guarded even when the whole truth comes out: he's done his best to survive having lost, but it was so unbearable he can't face losing again.

(also, honorable mention backstory echo, the person calling him a brother sets his home on fire to drive him and his parent figure out of town. as i liveblogged: this one would really hurt gintoki if gintoki cared about anything oboro ever did!)

but with the shinpachi story-rerouting, they get the good end, keep everyone (otose, yorozuya, all of kabukicho, even pirako and her dad - everyone but kada) safe without having to sacrifice a single thing, even keep gintoki hopeful for this outcome. so, as goose points out, we are left to understand that there could have been a good end on the cliff, that something is different here than there, and, skipping a lot of math, that that is the people around gintoki.

which i do find really funny to imagine as a slam on takasugi and katsura. sorry you kids suck too much, your teacher dies bc u were cringefail. but lets look at it.

everyone is dishonest, no one wants to risk what they have: gintoki rallies himself to keep fighting but is determined to do it alone. kagura and shinpachi fight him on this; they can't leave because they don't want to lose their home, they can't let him fight alone because they don't want to lose him. they're just as restricted by what they have to keep safe, but their only option is to act where everyone else's is inaction. shinpachi says:

if i may skip over the bitchslap itself for now, gintoki does consent to let his allies fight with him after it. yorozuya stands alone against saigou, who's heavily demoralized but resigned, strongarmed into fighting them by the threat to her son. but on seeing their resolve to keep protecting their own precious home and family she says:

and, to skip straight to my thought, i think this is what turns the tides back in their favor. there are more twists and turns to the fight. pirako equates what binds saigou, which she herself equates to what binds the yorozuya, to what binds her:

(with an intentional distinction that she's willing to actively destroy the others', as opposed to their purely self defensive fighting, which is echoed at some point in her distinguishing gintoki from jirochou in the same way, that jirochou not only lives to protect like gintoki but is willing to destroy in the process. i don't find that part as interesting, but it's more fuel to the power of having something to protect as a driving force as an arc theme.)

so now all three stand on the same ground, absolutely unwilling to give up what they hold dear, but all their cards are on the table. they aren't dealing in 12 dimensions of tricksy defensive pre-emptive moves anymore. they know it wouldnt work, anyways, since they all know their drives to protect are the same and no one will be talked into backing down. now they can directly duke it out and let the winner be determined that way, on strength of will. even before the actual circumstances change, the fight somehow feels freer seeing how inevitable it is. and with everything out in the open, yorozuya can now protect each other and saigou's son, taking out one side of the conflict.

(and with everything out in the open, the ultimate 4devas villain can become the single person who continues to betray the others, kada, whose further machinations - with everything out in the open! - saigou (and later yorozuya) can choose to protect pirako from. everyone wins! because everything was out in the open! do you see where i'm going)

and so we come back to the question: gintoki is corrected, the arc is rerailed to the better outcome. so is the correction justified?

what does the correction accomplish outside of its moment? most convincingly to me of goose's presented options, i also think it's done as a thematic shift, a, okay, just live was a strategy that worked before but now doesn't suffice, so we need something more.

as to why this is needed now and not earlier or later...tldr bad planning <3 but like.

we have, prior to this, a consistent thrust of arcs where gintoki teaches people to lose. as well, while we meet the harusame and we visit space and we get the barest glimpses of takasugi's weird shadowy background moves there, largely we're dealing with kabukicho characters and kabukicho stories. we see or only hear about the shogun for short comedic moments only. we've largely dropped the series intro focus on things like the shinsengumi or hasegawa acting as foreign diplomats. it's a local series, a hometown series, a kabukicho and not even an edo at large series, a personal story about gintoki making personal connections with his personal experience as a flawed person with a flawed approach to life that has let him, chronic slacker, get by on the bare minimum.

at this moment, chapter 300, we have a slow trickle of gintoki backstory starting to come out to us. we've recently expanded the story focus to include yoshiwara, which gets a callout in this arc by kada to keep it relevant. we have an arc of sorachi testing out plot beats that he'll use again for the endgame, in all the political maneuvering and alliancing and betraying and shadowy outsider space governmenting, where he's also doing a lot of echoing of that backstory that only becomes clear later. so it's possible he's thinking about shifting gears and setting up for the eventual endgame, which means getting out of the episodic cycle so things can stick.

and after this arc, to my opinion and memory, we stop getting the classic gintama flavor sympathizable'd antagonists. a lot of the bigger arcs don't even have clear Big Shot antagonists anymore, being more about the shouyoucore theme of characters fighting against themselves, or if there is one they're always explicitly part of the Shadow Government now, a unified and more daunting force than someone they can win over with an inspiring gintoki interaction.

so 4devas does act as a turning point at least in some way. and it's not possible to say this definitively, since all gintama arcs are ultimately never going to be about gintoki or his friends Actually losing something instead of beating the odds, but it does feel like theres a different flavor to, say, dekobokko with its direct look at how chars lives could be different and better and they will still choose to keep struggling as themselves. and Kintama arc definitely doesn't feel like an early days arc, like it can only resolve the way it does with a gintoki who is now able to face his past and the possibility of losing again and again and again (now with, natch, his faith that yorozuya will by his side when he does).

why now, after 300 chapters of letting it sit ignored in the back of his brain working out perfectly fine except when it doesn't (the very reminder of shouyou in a fight making him go Demon Mode, which is like regular gintoki but worse at fighting, bc he is so unprepared to think about shouyou)? well i personally am in big favor of the "take a decade off" strategy for facing problems. it worked for me too. realistically watsonianly its nice to let things percolate in the brain and do some of the processing behind the scenes until its less immediately painful. and he's made many bonds over these 300 chapters, shown in this arc when the whole town rallies behind him, that are there to support him when he needs it now and weren't there before.

realistically doylistly eh. bad planning.

and so we come back to the question: gintoki is corrected, the series as a result is rerailed to a writing space where things can start changing (leave the episodic, as you guys say, sazae-san format). it's useful in the future. so is the correction justified in terms of what comes before it? was the correction needed?

thinking about the bitchslap leads to thinking about the cliff scene leads to (sorry kagura and katsura, you guys arent really relevant here) pitting shinpachi and takasugi against each other in how they act with something on the line they can't bear to give up.

i don’t need the lesson of 4devas to apply logistically to the cliff scene. once they were set up on that chessboard, frozen in their assigned places as a backstory, it’s not like takasugi could’ve power of friendship’d his way out of being physically retrained if he decided he wanted to. it’s set up as a forced choice, it has to play out as a forced choice.

but we see that even before it’s asked of him, takasugi is willing, prepared, unbothered to give up his own life for shouyou’s. this is, goose lays out in the sequel, the cardinal sin in gintama - a teacher shouldn’t outlive their student. it would have been especially egregious to shouyou, whose whole desired life’s purpose is to raise students who can outlive him and outgrow him, take his lessons and go out into the world and do their own thing with them. takasugi doesn’t expect to do this and doesn’t seem to see a point in the possibility if shouyou isn’t back with them.

though we can also think of shouyou as a little too quickly willing to give up on the cliff - sorry, gintoki, the suicidal guy has thought about it for .02 seconds and decided the best outcome is for you to kill him even though he could get out of this no problem. maybe its no wonder gintoki gave up too. can we ask katsura what he would’ve done?

and is takasugi different from shinpachi there? he rejects the mentor’s attempt to exchange his own life for his. he’s not willing to consider a life without him.

but shinpachi is convinced no one is going to die. because they’ll be there together. incredibly naive - shinpachi and kagura, restricted to one option by what they need to protect like everyone is in 4devas, have acting as that one option because they are still free in a way gintoki and the other adults aren't. they’ve never actually experienced the impossible choice that forces you to give up, so they can act as if there isn’t one - what else would they do? why would they think to give up?

but gintoki is defined by having lived the impossible choice. its built into the foundation of him as a character and leaks out everywhere. he couldn’t have relied on his friends on the cliff because they were quite forcibly removed from the picture as an option, not by his or their choice. its written as an inevitability, logistics we find out later be damned.

if we refocus to 4devas, we can look at the Gintoki Figure for a different angle. jirochou, after he and gintoki resolve the arc conflict by being able to team up because they - say it with me - put everything out in the open, tells gintoki about his impetus for abandoning his family and coming back to his wayward life in kabukicho, the death of otose's husband.

it's, um, another now really obvious parallel to gintoki, lol. characters talk about how jirochou does everything he does in this arc to try to atone for his failure to both otose and tatsugorou, and i guess thats true bc he was written that way but he has an odd way of showing it, but anyways he resolves that, despite his guilt over this, all he can do now is keep living and keep protecting what they loved together. he's come to the usual gintama message all on his own, reinforcing that this is the correct way to live in this series. he had his own unavoidably shitty situation, and he came to terms with it.

so then where did jirochou go wrong, in the narrative's eyes (other than abandoning one woman and their child to deal drugs in the town of his other woman while ignoring her)? was there a point he could've changed how their trio's story played out? but he loved and trusted tatsugorou, and he was happy to step aside and let him be the one by their otose's side. i doubt he would have been happy stealing her away even if it were possible.

but if we look at the resolution tool of 4devas... he never put everything out in the open!!! everyone knows he loved otose, but in more of an open secret way. in classic romance plot, he never confessed for second male lead rejection closure. indeed, in the closest we ever get to a main character having a romantic plot in gintama, the very ending of the arc flirts with him doing just that now that he's made a little progress with the arc message, with the entire cast of the arc expecting him to (and interrupting before he can).

but if he had when they were young. if he had been honest with his friends. could it have opened up other options that weren't available on his own, that they didnt know to offer? i have a preferred one lol. but u can get creative with all sorts of life paths that avoid tatsugorou dying that way or, at the least, jirochou feeling chained to a shameful life (living in a town he doesn't go out in to protect a woman he doesnt talk to and feeling like he doesnt deserve the family he abandoned for this) because of it.

and then if we take this and rewind back to the cliff... we get to grind my favorite ax, "shouyou shouldve told literally anyone literally anything about his deal." if gintoki knew more about shouyou, they could've faced his horrors together, the whole time. he couldve known that shouyou was being literal calling himself a demon and not internalized his own identity as one for life just because shouyou bonded with him over it. i truly genuinely think the logical conclusion of all of gintama's big messages are that shouyou and gintoki should have been more open with each other.

but i don't think sorachi thinks that. and, you know, by 4devas rules, the unriskable precious things he was protecting by staying silent were his students' humanity, and secondarily his own fragilely newly hopeful heart that literally couldnt stand another 10 millionth round of rejection (killed himself and then went on a 12 year rampage over it. girl i would too).

and takasugi really isn't dishonest about what's going on in his head when he tells us he expects to die for shouyou. that's as cards on the table as i could ask. gintoki is, a little bit, by omission. he does what i'd want him to here - tells takasugi try just not dying - but doesn't give him a reason to, and doesn't tell him he has no plans of letting anyone die for shouyou.

so what goes wrong on the cliff - shouyou is happy, gintoki is happy, oboro's even kind of happy, katsura is irrelevant - is that takasugi is blindsided (whoops) by their silent agreement that betrays the one he thought he and gintoki had. and then ruins everyone's party about it and spends the next ten years doing so for good measure.

which is also, basically, what shinpachi is going through that prompts the bitchslap, too. he thought they were a team, that they had each others backs, not that gintoki is a one-way protector of them. he is blindsided by gintoki lying to and tricking them and hiding things from them. he is hurt by gintoki feeling hopeless all by himself when he could share that with them and be encouraged by their endless child optimism.

and would it need to have changed anything on the cliff? in the moment after the bitchslap, what contributes to gintoki changing his mindset is tama telling him, we trust that you're capable bc youve always shown us that, can you trust us this time? when, later in the arc, gintoki seems to regress by sending kagura and shinpachi away, he asks them to trust that he's still trusting them, relying on them to help shoulder his burden, and in return they know he's staying alive, not self sacrificing. maybe it would've helped just to feel on the same team and not shut out, to be able to trust gintoki like gintoki was trusting shouyou?

so. two paralleled instances of gintoki making a bad situation worse by keeping to himself and being too self sufficient. that feels clear cut that feels fine im okay with that as a takeaway. do i think its exactly what sorachi had in mind while writing this, as opposed to just a good series 'hey lean on your friends' moment to read cool and tug at the heartstrings? eh lol. i think theres definitely room to read takasugi into this arc (i still need to refind the takagin 4devas post...) but its not so baked in that i think he was a PRIORITY in the plotting.

but is the shinpachi SCOLDING necessary is the scolding justified... and yes its in response to life doesnt need to be fun i just want you to live. still a confusing framing i can't immediately square. but/and more immediately its directly responding. to gintoki opening up to them about his insecurities!!

which, as said, he doesnt do!! he doesnt talk about his failures! its basically like, here and to hijikata that one time and otherwise even when we know all the facts about what happened we still never hear gintoki himself talk about it. (so he really DOESNT learn the lesson here either. he stays dissociated and triggered every time utsuro comes up. he tries to solve the altana baby problem on his own. he doesnt talk to his new friends OR his old friends. bwah. gintoki. silver soul.)

so this is like. its just in the wrong order!! its just in a baffling order lol. if you want gintoki to share his burden do you need to punch him when he shares it. does it also need to sound like you're blaming him for not being capable of upholding his promise to protect anyone when thats the insecurity thats got him all discombobulated this arc in the first place (a whole set of notes i took on this that i didnt find a place for in this post)?? its so weeeeiiiiiirddd lol i dont liiikeee itttttt. theres plenty of things shinpachi can validly punch gintoki for but this is such a weird one.

so i guess. having a clearer understanding of this arc do i hate it less? YES honestly. i hate fakeout plots generally they irritate me but everything... more or less makes sense by gintama standards now that i have the whole plot in mind.

do i hate jirochou less SORT OF? i enjoy him. in his individual relationships. i like his shitty dad deal i love shitty dads. i like him pining for otose who genuinely likes him but also brings up her husband every sentence she says to him just to keep him down. i like his parallels with gintoki that they both explicitly acknowledge and find macho comfort in. hes still not theeeeeeeee most well-developed gintama antagonist but you know? i at least think otose and pirako would want to be around him after this.

do i feel like i have a clearer understanding of the bitchslap moment. NOT CONVINCED I DO. i feel like its going to be one of those things that slips in and out of my understanding like sand in cupped hands. i have a tentative understanding of it that i dont think sorachi actually had in mind. so i dont think ive solved it lol.

will i be cursed to think about 4devas forever? god i hope not. am i okay with it beating farewell shins in the polls. god i fucking hope it does. in the horrible timeline where i have to see 305 make it all the way and then lose i guess id rather it be to this one than to hijigin. consider this poll propaganda?

[serialadoptersbracket]

Round 2, Match 63: Whitebeard vs. Otose

Submitted kids:

Whitebeard: Marco, Portgas D. Ace, Thatch, Izou, Haruta, Deuce, Jozu, Vista, and a bunch more I can’t think of rn

Otose: Sakata Gintoki, Catherine, Tama, and arguably most of Kabukicho

Propaganda under the cut!

Whitebeard:

1. “His reason for piracy was to start a family. He has so many kids who all call him dad. Found family to the max.”

2. “His biggest dream in life is to have a family of his own, but how to go about that? Settle down with a wife and have lots of kids? Boring. No, the best way to go about it is to become a pirate, find the most outcasted and lost people you can, and make them your crewmates/sons”

3. “His entire crew calls him pops because he takes them in and treats them like his children. He also likes to take into those who don’t have anyone else. His main goal in life was to have a big family that cared for each other so that’s what he made his crew.”

(Mod note: Full propaganda list coming soon!)

Otose:

“Okay so Otose is a middle aged to elderly woman who we are introduced to in the series as Gintoki’s landlady. However we later learn that when visiting her husband’s grave she found Gintoki, in his late teens having been discreetly released from the prison he was held in because the head executioner didn’t believe he deserved death. In exchange for being allied to eat the manju she wanted to offer her husband, Gintoki promised (her husband since it was his manju) to always protect Otose. She then took him, cleaned him up, helped him heal, and let’s him live with her. While she’s technically his landlady, Gintoki doesn’t pay rent, ever. To the extant that when his rival and him switch bodies, and said rival pays rent, she takes it as a sign of the apocalypse. Also I should note later arcs draw clear parallels between Gintoki and her husband And her other love interest, Jirochou, almost like he’s the kid they never had.

Catherine is introduced as a new employee of Otose’s, a middle aged woman who’s a dream employee right up until it’s revealed this is a con and she’s actually robbing Otose. Gintoki puts a stop to it, and Otose’s response it to, rehire her, realizing Catherine has no opportunities But crime otherwise. This creates an intense loyalty that while Catherine might bitch about, she once put her life on the line, telling her old crew she can’t do another job with them, leading them to try and beat her to death before Gintoki intervenes.

Then there’s Tama, a robot who began as a toy her creator made for his sick daughter, but as he kept improving upon her, eventually made her into a fully functioning android he essentially saw as his daughter. Then Tama is framed for murdering him, and then she learns he set it up to create a robot apocalypse. Afterwards Otose takes her in, and gives her a job working for her.

A final element of Otose’s adoptive nature is how she became one of the four devas of Kabukicho. The four devas are the most powerful people in Kabukicho and the other three are, a yakuza and former war hero/criminal, another former war hero/criminal who single handily took out fleets of enemies, and a former captain of the Harusame (space pirates). What did Otose do to join their ranks? Well she repeatedly helped people out when she didn’t have to, the repeated kindness she showed to everyone when they needed it meant that multiple residents were willing to put their lives on the line to defend her. Like it takes kidnapping the son of another deva and holding him hostage to get that fraction to turn on her.”

[averagelonelypotato]

do you think Jirochou always flirts with Otose when he comes by, only for Gintoki to put a stop to it 

[ciaossu-imagines]

Hello there! For the mini event may you please do gintama with the au avatar the last airbender, thank you!

Hello there, my lovely anon! I definitely can do that - I really couldn't come up with solid ideas, so I admit to taking the lazy way out, so have a pretty comprehensive list on what type of Benders everyone would be in this AU! And guys, there are so many characters in Gintama so I swear it wasn't as easy and lazy as it looks! Thanks for sending in a request and I hope you'll enjoy!

Okay, so we're going into this AU with there being the four major bending types - Earth, Air, Fire and Water. Each bending type is as it is portrayed in Avatar: The Last Airbender, with people possessing different degrees of bending and different skills being present within each bending type.

So, when considering which type of Bender each character would be, I kind of broke it down into personality types and traits and qualities to look for, based on what I figure the 'stereotypical' Bender is for each of the four.

Earth Benders are a little rough around the edges, slow to anger, slow to decide on things, but stubborn once their mind is made up. They can be sensitive and they are often very patient.

Air Benders are gentle souls, respectful and adaptable, changeable. They're fast, both in their movements and in their thoughts.

Water Benders are typically calm and easy-going, flexible enough to adapt to their companions or situations. They're often quite easy to talk to and rather content with their lives.

Fire Benders are often prideful and confident individuals who are loyal, determined and ambitious. They can be very playful and fun but they often also have very short fuses on their tempers, which can be very volatile and explosive.

Keeping that in mind, this is what I figure the characters would be for Benders.

Earth Benders

Shimura Shinpachi

Shimura Tae

Shimura Ken

Chin Pirako/Doromizu Pirako

Kanemaru

Otose

Hanako

Saigou Tokumori

Saigou Teruhiko

Doromizu Jirochou

Hiraga Gengai

Hiraga Saburou

Haji

Terada Tatsugorou

Otaki

Jigsaw

Ofusa

Kirara

Urara

Rokkaku Kirie

Hongou Hisashi

Terakado Tsuu

Terakado Ichi

Hachibei Takaya/Takachin

Takatin

Rotten Maizou

Hijikata Toushirou

Sasaki Tetsunosuke

Kumanaku Seizou

Saitou Shimaru

Sasaki Isaburo

Oboro

Katsura Kotarou

Dragon Leader

Fat Dragon

Nakamura Kyoujirou

Shachi

Kameyama Duuke

Onijishi

Hijikata Tamegorou

Tsukuyo

Mutsu

Daraku

Abuto

Shijaku

Blu-Rayko

Prince Dai

Princess Bubbles

Otakai Sayaka

Water Benders

Sataka Gintoki

Kanemaru

Hasegawa Taizou

Hachirou

Tatsumi

Obi Hajime

Ketsuno Crystel

Ketsuno Seimei

Kuzunoha

Uchino

Hashida Kantarou

Hashida Kanschichirou

Hashida Kahei

Daigo

Kitaooji Daigorou

Izumi

Kawakami Bansai

Yamazaki Sagaru

Kamiyama

Harada Unosuke

16th Ikeda Yaemon

Hattori Zenzou

Wakikaoru

Momochi Rappa

Kurokono Tasuke

Takechi Henpeita

Kidomaru

Ebina

Seita

Suzuran

Hinowa

Kamenashi

Neptune Shokaku

Umibouzu

Shiramizu Pinko

Anigasaki Momo

Air Benders

Ikesawa

Tama

Oryou

Azumi Agonoske

Musashi

Kozenigata Heiji

Honjou Kyoushirou

Juurouta

Murata Tetsuko

Murata Tetsuya

Murata Jintetsu

Hedoro

Nishiki Ikumatsu

Hasegawa Hatsu

Hayashi Ryuuzan

Hayashi Fuyou

Sakurajima Chiharu

Okuni

Isao Kondou

Tokugawa Shige Shige

Tokugawa Soyo

Tokugawa Mori Mori

Tokugawa Sada Sada

Sarutobi Ayame

Elizabeth

Sakamoto Tatsuma

Yoshida Shouyou

Chougorou

Urashima

Oiwa

Rei

Enshou

Daishikyou

Mahha Noriko

Fumiko

Megami

Sorachi Hideaki

Fire Benders

Kagura

Kamui

Sakata Kintoki

Catherine

Ane

Kurogama Katsuo

Kujaku Hime Kada

Madame Yagami

Kanbei

Yagyuu Kyuubei

Yagyuu Binbokusai

Yagyuu Koshinori

Toujou Ayumu

Kitaooji Itsuki

Nishino Tsukamu

Minamito Sui

Shirino Douman

Gedoumaru

Antenmaru

Mone

Professor Meguro

No.305

No.502

Death Cancer

Ochi-san

Ben

Haga Kenji

Yocchan

Kimiko

Matsudaira Katakuriko

Matsudaira Kuriko

Hanano Saki

Goemon

Bichie

Sougo Okita

Hitotsubashi Nobu Nobu

Itou Kamotarou

Shinohara Shinnoshin

Imai Nobume

Ikeda Asaemon

18th Ikeda Yaemon

Utsuro

Jiraia

Banzou

Takasugi Shinsuke

Kajima Matako

Okada Nizou

Tendou Soutatsu

Mashiroi Kaguzou

Mashiroi Utsuzou

Inoue

Tasuke

Kuraba Touma

Eromes

Kurikan

Okita Mitsuba

Housen

Otohime

Admiral Abou

Ougai

Soutatsu

Kouka

Suitsu

Prince Hata

Jii