#Jason's character is a tragedy and him getting love after he died makes so much sense

[somewhereincairparavel]

Imagine, a few hundred years after Jason's death, he becomes a historical figure, unbelievably famous, that people write books about him and New Rome has his face printed on their gold coins. It's a Van Gogh situation where he isn't appreciated or noticed of the work he's done until centuries after he's gone, simply because one archaeologist decides to dig through the past and discover his true character, even offering Apollo a gift in exchange for an interview in the process, since only he had seen Jason alive for the last time. And Apollo starts to tear up recalling Jason's last moments .

[nilolemillion]

Let’s get one thing straight (very unlike me): Batman loves his kids. All of them. He’d die for each one in a heartbeat (of course not kill for them, cough cough Jason). But if you think for one second that Bruce Wayne, the guy who regularly dresses as a bat and fights crime at 3 AM (cough cough insomniac furry.), has a favorite BatKid, then clearly, you’ve never met his children. He doesn’t have a favorite, not because he loves them equally, but because none of these potatoe pie pumpkin cutie-headed chaos gremlins deserve to be his favorite.

Let me explain.

Dick Grayson (WOOP WOOP that’s the sound of that police. Yes Karen, I know he’s no longer an officer, NO KAREN I DON’T GIVE A FUCK.):

The first pancake. The golden boy. Everyone assumes that Dick has a special place in Bruce’s heart because he was the first Robin. He’s charming, he’s capable, and he smiles like he’s got a fucking sponsorship deal with Colgate. But let’s be real, this guy left the nest the second he could, started his own superhero gig in Blüdhaven, and still occasionally shows up to remind Bruce that he doesn’t need him (yes king, show your independence, love that for you.) And you know Dick is the type to throw that ‘you’re getting old, B’ line out there just to twist the knife. Bruce loves him, but how can he be the favorite when he’s busy playing Batman-lite with better hair?

Jason Todd (My personality favorite zombie, resuscitated character in the whole world, I love him so much and all the Outlaws.):

Oh, Jason. The problem child. The one Bruce failed, died, and came back with a vengeance (literally). You’d think after all that tragedy, Bruce might go a little easier on him. But Jason? This kid shows up at family dinners with guns blazing, ready to debate the morality of lethal force like it’s Thanksgiving dinner conversation (and it is, I did it and it was quite fun.) Sure, Bruce would die for him (again), but Jason pushes every button Bruce has like it’s his job. One minute he’s trying to be the better vigilante, the next, he’s making Gotham’s criminals wonder if Batman has gone completely off the rails. If Jason’s Bruce’s favorite, it’s in the ‘how are you still alive and not in jail?’ kind of way.

Tim Drake (DC DROP ANOTHER CANON ILLUSTRATION OF TIM BEING A CUTE LIL STALKER AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!):

Tim’s the brainiac of the family, the kid who deduced Bruce’s secret identity with zero help. Naturally, you’d think this would earn him some serious brownie points. But here’s the thing, Tim works way too hard. He’s got all the signs of a caffeine addiction (which is completely and absolutely understandable, he’s just a little silly and caffeine addicts are hot, yes I am too), zero concept of work-life balance, and is always trying to out-detective Bruce. Yeah, Bruce admires his dedication, but let’s be honest: Tim’s the kid you have to physically shove into bed because he thinks sleep is a myth. Bruce is just trying to prevent this kid from burning out before he’s 30. How can Tim be the favorite when Bruce spends most of his time making sure he doesn’t turn into an insomniac vigilante-zombie?

Damian Wayne (I’m literally making my birthday party theme of him, that should explain enough.):

Ah, Damian. His literal blood son. You’d think that alone would give him a shot at favorite-child status, right? Wrong. Damian is an adorable, pint-sized murder machine with a superiority complex the size of Wayne Manor. Bruce loves him fiercely, of course, but Damian’s idea of father-son bonding is training in deadly combat and arguing about why his assassination techniques are totally valid. Plus, he’s got that whole ‘I’m the heir to the world’s deadliest league of assassins’ thing going on. Sure, he’s Bruce’s kid, but you know he’s never going to let Bruce forget it. Not exactly favorite material when he’s constantly plotting world domination during family movie night. (Dw, he won’t act on it, Alfred made very clear that the batkid who dares dominate the world will be banned from his pastries. Besides, he’s too busy scratching Titus’ belly, he doesn’t have time to dominate the world. PRIORITIES BITCH.)

Cassandra Cain (I stan her more than I stand my own life. Help. I literally crocheted a plushy of her.):

Cassandra is probably the least rebellious out of the bunch, which should give her an edge, right? Wrong again. Cass may be quiet and respectful most of the time, but when she does go rogue, it’s on her terms, and it’s not just a small rebellion. No, Cass will disappear for weeks on end, take down a crime syndicate by herself, and then show up like it’s no big deal. Bruce can’t even stay mad because she’s so good at what she does. But Cass’s habit of ghosting the entire family and dealing with things solo? Yeah, it keeps her out of the running for favorite. Plus, she’s secretly the most dangerous one, and Bruce can’t play favorites with someone who could take him out without even blinking.

Duke Thomas (He’s was the sunshine I was midnight rain. DC DROP ANOTHER CANON ILLUSTRATION OF ISABELLA WITH DUKE AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!):

Duke the daylight protector of Gotham, which is cute and all, except that Bruce has no idea how to parent in the daylight. Duke brings this bright, positive energy to the BatFamily, which sounds great in theory, but this is Bruce we’re talking about. The guy who lives for darkness and brooding. Bruce loves Duke’s optimism, but it’s like trying to teach a vampire to enjoy the sun. Plus, Duke has a habit of questioning everything, and sure, Bruce appreciates his independent streak, but do you really want a favorite who keeps making you reconsider your life choices?

Stephanie Brown (My sweet dear and beloved purple queen, I love her so much.):

Not an adopted batkid, her mom is alive I think… But I don’t give a duck KAREN. Stephanie is the wildcard, the one who does whatever she wants, whenever she wants, and somehow gets away with it. She’s staged fake deaths, gotten fired from being Robin, and still keeps coming back for more. Stephanie’s whole existence is an exercise in chaos theory. Bruce loves her resilience and her ‘never-say-die’ attitude (literally), but how can she be his favorite when her middle name might as well be ‘Loose Cannon’? She’s the kind of kid who’ll fight crime while live-tweeting it. Yeah, Bruce loves her, but he’s not rewarding that kind of energy with a favorite child title. (I’m still confused about her age thingy.)

So no, Bruce doesn’t have a favorite. Because how could he? His kids are walking, talking disasters, each one a different flavor of chaos. Bruce loves them all more than anything in the world, but picking a favorite would be like trying to choose between different natural disasters. Earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, they’re all beautiful in their own destructive way, but you wouldn’t want to pick one to live through. In the end it’s about Bruce somehow surviving all of them.

[nightwings-robin]

Some of y'all act like Tim hated Jason when Tim was Robin and Jason was still dead but I disagree.

Not a lot of people do this but I've seen it enough times that it's gotten to bother me a little bit.

Let's take a look at some early Tim opinions on Jason.

Detective Comics (1937) #618

"Just a boy like me... One day I'll be as good as Jason."

This issue came out in 1990, so it's rather soon after Jason died and Tim was introduced (which happened in 1988 and 1989 respectfully). This is what Tim thinks about Jason very early on. This doesn't read as even remotely like hatred to me.

But wait, there's more!

The very next issue shows Tim having sympathy for Jason.

Detective Comics (1937) #619

Tim is noting the similarities between Dick, Jason, and himself. This issue is in the same arc when Tim's parents get kidnapped and his mom is killed. He has sympathy for Dick AND Jason, who both lost their parents. Tim is faced with the same pain and it shows his compassion for Jason.

Now this isn't to say that Tim was unaware of some of Jason's problems and maybe did blame him for his own death a bit, as shown with this panel:

Batman (1940) #455

Tim knew that Jason had times of anger and says he won't let that happen to himself. I don't think Tim is being quite fair here in claiming that he won't let his anger get the better of him like Jason's did, but Tim is hardly the only character to think this way about Jason and, again, this doesn't read as hatred to me. If anything, to me this reads as a character with preconceived notions about how another person died and not wanting to make the same preconceived mistakes as that person.

Is he being a bit harsh and 'holier-than-thou' here? Yes. Do I think this is hatred or some other malicious view of Jason? No.

There is also that time Tim hallucinated Dick and Jason, and they gave a sort of "pep-talk" to him about being Robin.

Batman (1940) #456

These are Tim's own thoughts manifesting through Dick and Jason. I do dislike that he imagines Jason blaming himself for his own death but think about why Tim would think this about Jason. Tim never met Jason. Wasn't there when he died. He only knows what he read and what he was told about Jason from other people. People like Bruce, Dick, and Alfred. And while those three loved and cared for Jason, they also unfortunately reinforced the belief that Jason was responsible for the Joker murdering him. It's not great but it does stand to reason that Tim would think this about Jason.

But it's not all bad stuff. Tim imagines Jason cheering him on alongside Dick:

Batman (1940) #456

Tim imagines not just Dick but also Jason telling him he can do it. That he can figure it out and be a good Robin. I feel like if Tim really did hate Jason, he wouldn't imagine Jason rooting for him.

Tim goes on to imagine Dick and Jason later helping him out with a fight:

Batman (1940) #457

Again, Tim imagines both Dick AND Jason encouraging him during a battle. He imagines that they both want him to succeed as a hero. Why would Tim want Jason's approval if he dislikes Jason? Because he doesn't dislike Jason. Tim respects him enough as Robin to think that he wants Jason's encouragement.

and then at the end when he officially becomes Robin:

Batman (1940) #457

"Dick made it a symbol... Jason gave his life for it. Failing them... what they fought so hard to build... worries me."

Tim sees being Robin as not just carrying on Dick's legacy, but also Jason's. He wants to live up to Jason just as much as he wants to live up to Dick. He wants to be a Robin that both of them can be proud of.

Like none of this says to me that Tim hated Jason. Did he look up to and idolize Jason the way he did with Dick? No, but that also doesn't mean that Tim hated him.

I get the feeling that Tim viewed Jason's death as a tragedy but since they never met, he didn't have any personal feelings about him, only wanting to live up to the Robin name that Jason left behind.

Now I DO think that Tim did eventually end up hating Jason after Jason came back and tried to kill Tim and others multiple times but this post is specifically referring to the time before Jason returned from the grave.

And I guess I should make it clear that I've not read every single comic issue of Tim Drake ever so maybe there are moments that refute my claim that I just don't know about. I'm simply going off of issues that I have read and I've only read Tim's very early days as Robin.

Feel free to disagree and add on if you want.

[kiragecko]

One of the main reasons I love things like Reverse Robins AUs, is how they can help you figure out what's important to a character, and then look at those things through a fun house mirror to learn them better.

This is why my new favourite Reverse Robins concept is Tim, the second Robin, dying protecting a 4 year old Dick Grayson and his parents from the Court of Owls.

Part of why he dies is that Damian has made showing weakness so painful that he doesn't call for help. Dick leaves Gotham with his parents and gets another 5 years of happiness before they're killed by Tony Zucco. Tim becomes a Talon. He becomes active in Gotham when Jason is 16, and nobody knows who he is until Dick has become the newest Robin and the Court sentences Batman and Robin to death, a year and a half later.

Things that I find really satisfying about this idea:

It keeps the canon Dick+Tim 'Relationship Transformed by Kindness and Death' dynamic, but flips it. Instead of Dick being trapped in the place of his tragedy, surrounded by reminders, and Tim growing up silently watching him; we have Dick being whisked away from his tragedy, growing up surrounded by reminders of what's been saved.

It allows us to play with Jason's 'I Can't let Go of My Death and So I've Lost Myself and Everything I Loved' issues. Tim can't let go of his death, and it's his only link to himself and everything he's lost. He remembers saying 'The Flying Grayson's will fly again!' Keeping Dick alive is more important than avoiding being thrown back in the Labyrinth. Protecting Dick from the Court is his path back to his family.

It keeps the obsession and connection between Tim and Dick, instead of trying to convince the reader that Tim idealized Damian. I've struggled to translate Tim's motivation for becoming Robin in a reversed setting, and I can't make it work. This gives that motivation to Dick, instead, and allows us to explore how DICK would have been transformed by that one meeting. He didn't need love and affection in the same way Tim did. But I can see him holding on to the hope and heroism he saw, and instead of getting consumed by his rage when his parent's die, he's motivated to live up to Robin's legacy.

It gives a reason for my favourite reversed dynamic: instead of Bruce being broken by Jason's death, Bruce is convinced to step up by Tim's. In this universe, Bruce didn't choose either of his first 2 kids, and found it easier and safer to deny Tim even WAS his kid. (During Tim's tenure, Batman and Robin start patrol from the central Wayne Ent. Batcave, leaving the Manor to Damian, because it's easier than keeping Damian's vicious resentment and jealousy in line. Tim learns to mostly avoid the Waynes as civilians. Bruce deals with anything he sees, but doesn't confront the roots of the issues, and Tim loves being Robin but never feels particularly safe in the role.) Bruce 'got a kid killed' by holding him at arms length, and so, when Jason comes into his life and Bruce's attempts to find him a better place are stopped by corruption at every turn, Bruce chooses to truly become a parent.

One of the few things Tim remembers is his certainty that Robins aren't safe around Damian. This lets me keep Dick's canon struggles with Tim and Damian's conflicting needs. Both want to protect him, but Tim wants to protect him FROM Damian, and clingy baby Dick idolizes Tim, but NEEDS to hang off various parts of Damian for as much of the day as possible. Damian is drowning in guilt and wants to make Tim as comfortable as possible, but has committed to raising Dick. He can't let Tim stay between the 2 of them at all times.

It doesn't give as many hooks for Tim and Jason's relationship as I like. And I remain conflicted about whether Cass and Steph should come before Tim (to properly reverse canon) or after Tim (to make them contemporary with Jason, because he deserves to have contemporaries in AUs. Canon denied him). Duke is swapped with Babs, and I have fun thoughts about him, but that's a different post.

I don't think I can write this, but I want to see it!

[glitter-stained]

comments sections are bleh let me invade your inbox hello

ON HANAHAKI AU. and also in conjuction (is that the right word? i do not care about google i trust my brain!!) with the notif i got of you liking one of my art pieces. the original context of hanahaki has always felt Weird to me bcs its like ? giving people an obligation to reciprocatw your feelings. INSTEAD i subscribe to the idea of it being about extreme lack of communication and repression that results in a physical overflow—in this case still flowers suffocating u bcs cool aestheticw qnd also they carry this fucked up vibe to them idk man

ANYWAY i just think its SUPER fitting for jason in his familial relationships (ESP bruce) and i think each time he dies its just building more and more. like concealing this thing over and over again, not letting himself process what hes dealing with and express that hes desperate for validation and love + yk. all that trauma that people like to pretend has been resolved ...

not to mention. jason is a canonically suicidal character, at least passively, so the amount of value he puts on resolving the issue and curing himself is.. Lacking

i have no idea if any of that made sense i dont think my meds have kicked in yet and my brain is SCREAMING. Sorry for my godawful typing

Okay so

First of all I usually like Hanahaki BECAUSE you cannot make yourself love someone. So in general I like classic hanahaki because you get one of two situations:

1. Soft hurt/comfort where the person's self-esteem and past trauma stops them from realising the others actually love them back (I'm a soft bitch and will enjoy any variation of this trope)

OR

2. Tragedy when they try their best to make themselves love the sick person the way they need to, they love them but not in the way they need, and in the end it feels like their love is not enough no matter how much they love and they have to watch their loved one die because of it. Do you understand the tragedy it's so good!!!

So usually I like trad!hanahaki

However

I'm not kidding when I made the Jason hanahaki before seeing your ask i was already like wait but for jason what if it's not about feeling unloved. What if the very act of loving someone whose love will never satisfy you, not because of its nature but because you have such a different understanding of love and what it implies, is what hurts you. What if the reason you're sick is because you love someone who keeps hurting you, and you hate that you love them, and you can't help that you love them and you can't help that you hate that you love them, and this is what kills you.

And even death does not stop the love, just like the love can't stop itself from killing you.

So that's the OG thought for the AU

Honestly I really like your take on that, the relentlessness and desperation, and the suicidality -I can see him being so tired of the pain and at first wanting them to see and then realising they're not seeing it and getting used to it, getting comfortable in that cycle of pain and just waiting for the day it finally takes, until he has to actively conceal it because he's grown so used to his own personal garden of doom that someone finding out, and the emotional vulnerability that comes with it, is scarier than this.

Also loved your art because the version of Hanahaki death i like most is when the body horror is hardcore. Like, sure, die choking on flowers maybe but I need a whole rosier to sprout out of the ribcage, alien-style. And I think after Jason wakes up from his death, the plant is just there. I think he has a whole safehouse where he keeps his plants. He calls it the Greenhouse. It's beautiful, and the petals are bloodstained.

[qcomicsy]

I was going to reblog with a comment but that post is already super long. But so true ! Like the ninja assassin thing with Dick is a modern retcon something that would be a Tim Cass or Damian thing to do. But writing a flashback for an adult Dick in the 2000s would be weird. By the 1960s he was firmly in canon 18 and in college. How are you gonna go back to the era of goofy and be like this is Dick’s angsty teenage years involved getting turned into a vampire and fighting Bruce over dating Talia. It just doesn’t make sense with how Long comics keep going. 80 years of comics and he’s only what 28. Like it’s very hard to keep a consistent character when everyone wants to make Dick Jason and Bruce new characters every few decades

Absolutely!

My personal view about how they kept retconning Dick's personality as a child and his relationship with Bruce is that it's a mix of complex things and bullshit.

The complex things is yeah, Dick and Bruce had their share of problems when Dick was growing up. They did start bumping heads a lot, but it was more like "this kid is turning into a man and is starting to clash views with his father (who is already someone who's not easy to deal with)" and "that's the part where he starts to develop who he is as person" (I won't get much into that because I haven't read many comics regarding Dick transition from Robin from Batman & Robin to Robin from Titans until Nightwing in the pre-death of the family era.) than the borderline abusive and toxic relationship they started to introducing in the late 90's to early 2000's portrayals of them.

It's complex because after rebooting everything it's hard to introduce such a long and gradual process that took almost ten years of development that is Dick's emancipation not only from working with Bruce but also following his every step as boy wonder. Specially if we think about the huge fall out they had right after Jason died.

It's bullshit because they started with those retcons when we had that long and embarrassing period of Super-hero history (late 90's to early 2000's) where everyone was trying to make super-heroes popular again but following alongside with a palpable embarrassment and self-conscious shame regarding any silliness and/or whimsical side the superhero universe. Like "we're making superheroes stories but this is for adults, this ain't for children 😡😡". Nobody wanted to be the "60's Batman TV show everyone makes fun of" and everybody wanted to be Alan Moore.

We had all this writers who grow up reading "Death of the family", "The Killing Joke", "Batman Year one" add were dying to recreate the 80's dark period glory, even if they didn't had the same writing skills for that.

I mean hate the Killing Joke all you want (I know I do), it has a shit tone of good writing.

It's bullshit because everyone was still sore about how Batman turned into a joke in the 90's after that one movie and for some reason everyone blamed Robin. It's bullshit because comic books are always influenced by the popular media around them, and while 40's Batman had the American Way and American Family Values™ 🦅🦅🦅, 80's Batman has Scarface, Taxi Driver and long urban tragedies.... 90's have Die Hard and every extra power macho fantasy under the sun.

I mean... This was 90's Nightwing.

he's so big and so stupid and one day I'm gonna top h–*gunshots*

No one wanted to see "good father" Batman, hell no one wanted to see any emotional shit in comics? Emotions??? In my manly comics??? Miss me with that gay sit emotions is for girls 😡😡 I wanna see big buffy man making his enemies cry 🔥⛓️☠️💪☠️😡⛓️🪚🔧

So you reach early 2000, everyone kinda hates or is kinda embarrassed of Robin, Batman is a former shadow of the man and the father he used to be. But you still wanna introduce new readers to your character (Dick Grayson) that (for better or for worst) is loved but only by the people who already know him, you're still embarrassed of his silly origins and the whimsical part of it.

So what do you do?

Personally I think writers thought Dick had it too easy as Robin, personally I think they were obsessed about making it real, personally I think everyone was obssessed and trilled with the idea of being the next Tim Miller and making their one fresh real edge introduction of the boy wonder. Personally I think this is all the new 52 was absolutely on for the Batfamily.

Personally I believe (and this is more a optimistic take) some writers were creatively trying to tie Dick's anger issues as Nightwing to his origins as Robin.

You have this chance of one in million (at te time) to reintroduce Nightwing (reintroduce Robin), now you can make it as real as gritty and as edge as you want. You can make it Robin cool again, you can introduce in a way that will sell well the dark story you where preparing for this character. And you also can deny any father and son relationship he could had have with Bruce Wayne and keep the big beef strong man without feelings reputation that people have been manufacturing by choice into Batman from ten years by now.

And what is more dark and character building than an abusive father?

I think writers thought that making Bruce abusive towards Dick and Dick resentful towards Bruce was the best way to launch this new universe as realistic and grittier. Not only making Dick's Robin introduction (and origin) more "real" but also separating Bruce even more from a emotional and father like figure that for some reason some writers (and fans!) despised to much.

Killing so many birds with one stone might as well call yourself David from the Bible.

And they were so certain this direction would be a success that the just notice their mistake now.

Anyways... A load of bullshit.

I personally don't mind Dick's Robin having anger issues, I think it's a natural progression from his first real serious introduction from back in the 80's, I also think it adds more to his character tying up his first trauma along with a long life of others and the result of having to deal with a frustrating job (that is vigilantism is) since literally ever. I like the idea that the perfect Robin wasn't perfect all the time and he also had (and has) other side of his personality that isn't as nice or likeable as it should and that's a thing he consciously have to work on as a person since he was a child.

However I also think writers did took to far sometimes and Dick history and specially his relationship with Bruce suffered from it. And I also agree that if everyone tries to reboot, retcon and fucking "subvert" a character every fucking ten years you won't even have a fucking consistent character to begin with (gestures vaguely to Jason Todd, Deadpool and now poor fuckin Damian and their wreck of comic book history).

[lazuliquetzal]

thoughts on time travelling Jason?

SOBBING I HAD TO REWRITE THIS BECAUSE TUMBLR ATE MY ANSWER

anyway anon I spent a very long shower brainstorming concepts but then when I stepped out I realized: it's just Two Dead Birds by InsaneTrollLogic. Then I spent two hours trying to come up with something original, but then failed, because all of what I came up with was TDB by InsaneTrollLogic. Easily my favorite time travel Batfam fic (I have read a lot).

But anyway, part of the reason I like it so much is because it sidesteps the inherent tragedy of "look at yourself back before you died!" which, while really fun and cathartic, IS SO FUCKED UP ARE YOU KIDDING ME. Jason literally died and you make him confront a happier version of himself that he can never return to? A version of himself he fundamentally cannot relate to? A version of himself that has all the love and support, and who he will never see in the mirror again? Jason time traveling and saving his past self from the Joker is a super straightforward and dramatic plot line, so I get why it's the obvious choice but god, the implications are so depressing.

TDB avoids that by taking place post-Ethiopia. Instead of saying "the way Jason fixes his past is by preventing the trauma altogether," it says, "the way Jason fixes his past is by guiding his past self back into the arms of a healthy support system." Which is exactly the kind of hopeful growth-wish-fulfillment thing I'd personally want in a Jason Todd Time Travel fic. (Anon, I swear I genuinely tried to come up with an original idea for this but everything just boiled back to "TDB is already what I want out of a Jason Todd time travel fic.")

Speaking in more general terms, the interaction of a later-stage, semi-rehabilitated Jason versus a fresh-out-of-the-Pit Jason is really interesting to me. Part of the general appeal of time travel is getting to contrast a character at the beginning of their arc with them in the middle, or at the end--it really showcases character growth. And in Jason's case, I'd want this to be the comparison: we're not comparing the before and after of an unfair tragedy, we're showcasing at his long and difficult journey of reinventing himself.

And I think it'd be a fun push for Jason to confront his initial hurt and anger in the form of his younger self, and realize, "you know what, Red Hood isn't just about giving my daddy issues a body count. I'm going to construct something better." That's what a time travel fic is about, babey.

[timdrakeinorder]

"I'll come back for part 2 after work" well it's been over a month and I'm unemployed now, whoopsies

I am once again banging on the walls, begging the dc fandom, movies, cartoons, etc to give Harvey Dent more attention. He's SUCH a fascinating character! I'm so bored of Joker, man. Two Face is way more terrifying to me because he's much more grounded. There's also the tragedy of being a close friend of Bruce's that he failed to save. He's the murderer of Jason's father! He's been rehabilitated at least once and we see multiple times that there IS a chance for Harvey to be Harvey again, to live a good and honest life. The real tragedy is that it never sticks. Harvey can never escape this. I'd love to see more Batman media that explores the idea that Batman and Two Face are two sides of the same coin (pun absolutely intended) and they are both "cursed" to be what they are

Another fun thing here, Two Face has no idea that Tim isn't Jason. I haven't read enough of Jason's robin era to know if they have more development, but Two Face was Jason's first rogue! Jason went absolutely ape shit on him and just barely saves his life soon after. I also absolutely love how much the scrap metal Harvey is using looks like a crow bar, it adds so much more weight to this

I think Two Face starts puzzling out that this isn't Jason here. He can't put his finger on what's changed yet, but he's on the path

This nearly brought me to tears! This scene mirrors Jason's death so heavily, but Alfred was here this time! He could save Robin this time! After how hesitant Alfred was to let him do this in the first place, I can't imagine he didn't feel great responsibility and guilt here

They care about each other so much it makes me sick!!!! I'll say it to my dying day, Alfred deserves more credit than he gets for Tim's training, he had Tim's back from day one!

god </3

The guilt complex and need to self-sacrifice came pre-installed, Bruce didn't need to do shit but teach him how to hit good

He's only 13!!! He feels so much undeserved responsibility for these two. He's just a random civilian kid who knows too much, and they're highly trained vigilantes who have been doing this for 10 years plus! I don't even know how long Bruce has been Batman at this point, but ALPOD happens soon after the nightwing comic where he says it's been 10 years since his parents died

Bruce still hasn't even met Tim!!!

Dammit Tim, why are you like this?

God I miss the way comics used to use color, this is so tasty!

Alfred and Dick teaming up to talk Bruce into letting Tim be Robin! Tim isn't even advocating for himself to be Robin yet!!! Bruce is stressing out so hard right now and they are NOT helping

And here's where Alfred advocating for Tim to be Robin really starts to make sense. At this point, being Batman is Bruce's slow burn suicide, nothing Alfred can say or do will make him be more careful. Alfred's priority will ALWAYS be his boy, no matter what. And if having a Robin is what keeps Bruce alive, then so be it.

Tim is so little against the looming shadow that is The Batman but he's holding so strong. He's so determined

I think THIS is where Tim really starts endearing himself to Dick. I think he sees a lot of himself and, painfully, a lot of Jason in Tim. Dick is just as dedicated to Bruce as Alfred is

Cue Tim shifting strategies bc hunting down criminals matters to Bruce infinitely more than his own life ever will

Aaaaaand hit the image limit, part three incoming (in less than a month this time)

Batman #442 (My thoughts)

Alfred has known him for ONE NIGHT and he already gets Master Timothy status. It's unreal how fast he got endeared to this little shit. Alfred and Tim's relationship is so underrated and I will never stop saying it! In a way, Alfred mentored him before Dick or even Bruce did. Alfred has such an important role in teaching him how to be a support for Batman, and accepting how dangerous what they do is as someone on the sidelines

Alfred is so strong, he really doesn't get enough credit for how hard being Batman's guy in the chair, emotional support, nurse, and father is. He could lose his son every single night and he just has to sit at home and hope for the best

Right of the bat (hehe) Tim has SO much respect and appreciation for Alfred and it's really nice to see.

Hey look, it's the profile thumbnail!

It's like Tim can't physically restrain himself from jumping in to help when he sees a problem. He's so worried

This is where we get into one of my biggest gripes with fanon, the "tim forced batman to make him robin" thing, and also a bit of the "bruce was irresponsible and chose to endanger a random civilian child" thing, although the 'are robins child soldiers?' discourse is too heavy for me to get into.

The biggest problem I have with it is when Dick and especially Alfred are portrayed as being against the decision and forced to accept it by Bruce

As with a lot of fanon, it's rooted in canon and then horribly exaggerated. Tim talks Alfred into taking him to save Bruce and Dick, despite multiple attempts to talk him down both in the cave and in the car. Tim followed Dick all the way to Haley's circus to try and talk him into being Robin, if Alfred didn't drive him the little shit absolutely would've found his way to the fight anyways the second the man turned his back. He's extremely stubborn. And, as established in earlier installments, Batman has been reckless to the point where it is VERY likely he'd die out of his own lack of self-regard any day. I really can't blame Alfred for having a moment of weakness here. Bruce means more to him than anything in the world and Alfred can see that in Tim.

This is also where we get into the "did Tim stalk the bats and take pictures of them regularly?" fanon discourse. I definitely don't think there's canon support that he was following them every night on patrol as an extremely young child (he didn't even figure out their identities until he was 9. I've seen writers make him as young as FOUR trying to follow them and as a big sister to a 4 year old, y'all are insane) That being said, I think his use of the word "followed" could be interpreted in a few ways. It would be a perfectly valid interpretation that he means 'followed' in the way one follows the news, as in keeping track of. However, he does have A LOT of pictures of Batman and Robin and, in my opinion, a lot of them don't look like newspaper clippings. Plus Batman and Robin are rarely caught on film, I don't think the newspapers would catch them often enough for Tim to build a collection that big.

Tim also knows when Titans meetings are, where Dick's apartment with kori is and the fact that they're together as well as knowing what angle to peep through the window at and where to view both the tower and that apartment stealthily. He knows where Dick's New York apartment is, he knows how to get in, he knows how to get into Dick's safe.

He DID manage to follow Batman to that fight on the dam and photograph it.

I think that's too much evidence to completely dismiss the idea that he's followed them before

And here's the real kicker about the 'Tim forced them' thing. TIM DID NOT GO IN WANTING TO BE ROBIN! TIM SEES THIS AS THE ONLY SOLUTION TO BATMAN'S SELF-DESTRUCTIVE VIOLENT SPIRAL!

Tim is selfish. He is stubborn. He's reckless. He wants to help no matter the risk. He sees a problem that affects him deeply out of a VERY parasocial relationship and demands to be able to fix it no matter what anyone else has to say about the matter. And he's a 13 year old boy with a heart too big for his chest. Tim was made to be robin

(coming back for part two after work. we're still only on page seven and I have MUCH more to say)

[bitimdrake]

What’s your opinion of that post going around saying that Jason is a character doomed by the narrative while Tim is doomed by his own flaws? I personally disagree with it because a lot of what happens to Tim is out of his control (like his friends and parents dying), and while Jason’s death was out of his control almost everything that happens to him after becoming Red Hood is due to his own flaws and lashing out at others. I’m curious about what you think :)

ohhh interesting. Because I am simultaneously like "yeah that post is neat and I agree with it!" and "yeah you're totally right and I agree with you!" I am simply agreeable :)

Hm. I think a significant portion of why the original post strikes something true is the meta context. Jason was doomed, not because of anything about him, but because he had the misfortune to be written in an era where the main Batman writer hated the idea of the Robin. He had a lead writer who kept trying to get him killed, and finally succeeded.

On the flip side, Tim is very protected by the narrative. DC knew damn well they could not let something bad happen to this Robin right after the death of the last one, lest the concept of Robin be ruined forever. So even as terrible things happen to the people around Tim, he himself is very very safe for the first twenty years of his history, and only really could be seriously hurt after there's a new Robin.

(Also, iirc, that post labels Tim-soomed-by-flaws specifically as a Greek tragedy and like. I'm no classics expert, but I don't think being a doomed-by-flaws Greek tragedy is mutually exclusive with having shitty things out of your control also happen to you.)

It also feels most true when specifically around Jason's Robin tenures. Jason was recruited by Bruce, largely did good, and died anyway because the universe was cruel. Tim, on the flip side, very much chose to be here despite having full access to a normal, safe life.

Also. idk. Tim does have hubris struck down by the gods energy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ This is most especially true in Red Robin, and especially especially under Nicieza's writing, where he may be informed by grief but is also a guy so infuriatingly convinced of his Rightness.

Onnn the other hand: everything you've said is also totally true!

Jason is a tragedy doomed by the narrative as Robin. But while he carries some of that energy even after returning, he is very much making his own mistakes as the Red Hood. There's a lens to look at it where Jason is narratively doomed because he never got to live a real life and is now stuck being against the main character (Bruce) who will inevitably prevail. But there is also the more Watsonian lens where Jason is absolutely doomed by his own flaws and causing his own destruction when he doesn't need to!!

[eta paragraph got lost here; re-adding] Red Hood Jason does a lot of really awful things that were entirely his decision. And he faces a lot of struggles that he very much could have avoided if it weren't for his own flaws. And though Tim is flawed and never died (and arguably isn't even really a tragedy?), the terrible things that have impacted him the most--the various deaths of people he loves--were fully out of his control, and sometimes not even narratively about him! (e.g. Steph fridged for Bruce; Bruce, Conner, Bart all killed/"killed" for their own stories, etc)

In the end, I guess it's a matter of perspective. Which vibes are strongest to you.

[bigskydreaming]

Brain topic du jour is reflecting on the frankly weird as fuck pattern in Dick’s life where....he barely ever experiences losses one at a time. Most of the loss he’s experienced in his life is compounded by him losing multiple people and other elements of stability all at the exact same time.

1) When his parents died, in some continuities this is coupled with him losing his extended family of his aunt and cousin as well, with his uncle left comatose and on life support for years before he eventually died as well. Even in continuities without Richard, Karla and John, the loss of Dick’s parents is compounded by the additional loss of his circus family in the sense that he was taken away from them by the state and their constant reassuring presences in his life were no longer comforts he was able to rely on.

2) When Jason died, Dick didn’t just lose his brother, as the tragedy was compounded by Bruce’s reaction. I’ll never be able to gloss over the effects of NTT #55, personally, because I think its too key to Dick’s entire characterization and the specific direction his character took in the years that followed this, to like....disregard that Bruce however unintentionally, while lost in his own grief, added to Dick’s own sense of loss for Jason in probably the worst way possible. As by kicking Dick out and telling him to leave his keys, Dick - having no way to know or guess that they’d ever reconcile, just like he never actually went back to the circus being a regular presence for him - to Dick, this was in essence the equivalent of his childhood tragedy all over again. Losing not just one family member, but his whole family in one sweep, and all the comforts and stability offered by a home he was forced to leave. Even Dick’s contact with Alfred was minimal for awhile, because why would the guy who basically JUST saw history repeat itself and was like, well I know how THIS tends to play out.....why would he think that if Alfred felt forced to actually choose between his loyalties to Bruce and Dick respectively, that Alfred would pick Dick over the man he’d known and raised from childhood himself?

3) Titans Hunt. I know I harp on this one a lot, but you can’t deny that it fits the pattern. Dick didn’t just lose one friend and teammate.....he lost Joey, he lost a good four or five lesser known Titans who nevertheless were people he viewed as directly HIS responsibility to keep safe. With these tragedies compounded by the fact that though comics played out a lot more slowburn and extended stories over years back then, like.....the aftermath of Titans Hunt was still everpresent and directly died into Dick’s reactions and emotions during the Mirage storyline and everything that happened with the failed wedding and his breakup with Kory AND the fact that he was literally forced off the team he’d basically founded, by the government agency that took over the team and appointed Roy as its leader in his stead.

3) Graduation Day. The second time the Titans disbanded it was again not due to a singular loss, because Dick didn’t just lose Donna at this point, but also Lilith died in the exact same story and though Lilith is criminally underused, like, she’s also one of Dick’s oldest friends. She was literally the first Titan to join after the original five. This then led into the Outsiders era, where Dick was shown to still be reeling from the losses of this story for an extended period of time, and in a fun parallel to the Titans Hunt aftermath, Dick was also ousted from his leadership of THIS team by essentially a vote of no confidence by his teammates (and uh, Bruce too, literally).

4) The Blockbuster arc. Where Dick’s emotional state was due to a continued string of multiple losses. He lost his apartment building and almost every one of the neighbors he’d built a community out of, as we’d been shown him actively involving himself in their lives and vice versa for YEARS before this point. Then he lost his circus, his childhood home, burned to the ground and with dozens of deaths - both spectators and actual performers Dick had known and loved as a child. Then he lost his relationship with Barbara, his sense of self-security and autonomy to Tarantula, he lost another teen vigilante who died in his colors, the mantle HE’D created, when Stephanie was believed dead in War Games, and it all culminated in losing the city he’d invested himself in as his CHOSEN home, the place he dedicated himself to protecting, when Chemo blew it up.

Oh just for the record - my nonexistent passport to the magical kingdom of Narnia for a fic that raises the point when bringing up Tim’s losses in the Red Robin era, that like.....ALL of the above happened at literally the EXACT SAME TIME as all Tim’s referenced losses occurred. Obviously Steph meant more to Tim than Dick on a personal level, but I also included her largely as an anchor point to the timeline, to show how that death, and not long after that Jack Drake’s and then Superboy’s.... occurred right smack in the middle of one of the absolute WORST periods of Dick’s life. To be clear, I don’t intend this to suggest that no actually, Dick had it harder than Tim - nah. 

No thank you. Hard pass. I hate that sort of thing even in support of my own faves over other characters. No, instead the thing I’d love to see explored more is just in light of the SPECIFIC angle fics take here - that Dick’s actions while Bruce was lost in time showed an obliviousness to everything Tim had lost lately - for literally ANYONE to bring up or introduce into the timeline here an awareness of everything Dick had lost AT THE EXACT SAME TIME PERIOD. To establish that actually, Dick didn’t just ‘not understand what it was like’ - rather, its more accurate to say that nobody in universe around this time ever shows an awareness of Dick’s own losses and says oh wait, that doesn’t track then. 

Because obviously, with this stuff put in proper perspective, Dick understands VERY VERY WELL the exact thing we’re accusing him of not understanding by being oblivious to Tim’s losses that he’s not actually oblivious to because he tries to talk to Tim about them all the time, while meanwhile its everyone else who has absolutely mum to say about the fact that Dick’s emotional state is compromised to hell and back at this point, not JUST because of losing Bruce, but also because *gestures wildly* literally ALL OF THE ABOVE in the exact same time frame Tim’s extended losses happened in.

And okay I am going to indulge in slight tiny itty bitty pettiness and point out my ire that so many fics set during this time tend to recite listicles of Tim’s losses, with Steph, Kon and Jack Drake at the very top of said list....while paying no attention whatsoever to the fact that STEPH WAS LITERALLY BACK BY THE TIME THE RED ROBIN SERIES HAPPENED. She’s LITERALLY a person Dick sends to check up on Tim after Tim turns Dick away when he tries himself. How are you gonna stress the impact Steph’s loss has on Tim when you’re not even acknowledging STEPH’S RIGHT HERE IN THE EXACT SPECIFIC CANON STORY YOU’RE CITING??? I just. afhioskhflafhlafhklfahlfa. 

And not to put too fine a point on it, but you know who ELSE was also back at the same time? CONNOR. Superboy LITERALLY was already back to life by the time the Red Robin series even began. Like, the issue where a resurrected Kon and Cassie (Wonder Girl) have a heart to heart about the fact that Tim and Cassie ‘connected’ during his absence and Connor stresses that this doesn’t bother him or make him feel negatively towards either of them at all, because hello, he was literally dead at the time, why would he mind that two of the people he loves most in the world sought comfort in each other? Yeah, that issue? Literally came out BEFORE Tim even became Red Robin.

I MEAN. I’m just saying, when people constantly take shots at Dick’s choices during this period because of how much Tim had lost before Bruce already, in order to shift focus away from the fact that Dick lost Bruce every bit as much as Tim did......and you repeatedly emphasize the SAME three names as the focal point of Tim’s losses while paying no acknowledgment whatsoever to everything Dick lost at the exact same time Tim lost these three.....it quickly becomes kiiiiiiinda relevant in my opinion THAT TWO OF THE THREE NAMES CONSTANTLY MENTIONED AS BEING TIM’S LOSSES ARE NO LONGER EVEN LOST BY THE TIME THE SUBJECT COMES UP. Again, I’m just saying! Pettily, mind you! I am aware of the pettiness, I just beg awareness of like *again gesticulates wildly at all of the above* ALL THAT!

LOL.

But I digress.

5) When Bruce was believed dead while he was lost in the timestream. Again, Dick didn’t just lose the father who had been the only parent in his life for almost TWICE as long as his first parents......this was coupled with the loss of numerous other sources of stability in Dick’s life. There’s the matter of his personal sense of identity and self-expression....Dick FOUGHT against becoming Batman, trying to handle Gotham in Bruce’s absence as Nightwing for as long as he could, because he knew being Batman was very much NOT going to be good for him. He put so much of himself into building his identity as Nightwing, establishing himself in that role, that self-image, that yes, I maintain it was an actual LOSS for Dick, to feel like he had no choice but to give that up and everything it meant to him and his own life, in order to essentially live Bruce’s life for him in his absence. 

Because it wasn’t just being Batman that Dick was struggling with at this time....he also had to act as the patriarch to the Wayne family, essentially raise Bruce’s ten year old son, step into Bruce’s old role in Wayne Enterprises, all while getting no acknowledgment for any of this, for literally LIVING his father’s life instead of the life Dick had worked so hard to build for HIMSELF....because of course Dick’s actions and struggles couldn’t even be advertised beyond the family and close friends, because the whole point of him doing all this was so that nobody else even realized that Bruce wasn’t really there anymore. Dick didn’t just assume Bruce’s responsibilities. Dick assumed Bruce’s life, so thoroughly that most people didn’t even put together that Bruce was ‘dead,’ between Dick handling Bruce’s actual roles and responsibilities while Hush made public appearances as him. 

Like, when you’re living someone else’s life so completely that nobody can tell they’re even gone....how on earth does that leave any time or space for you to have ANY kind of life of your OWN, y’know? Not to mention the fact that like in so many times previously....all this meant that Dick couldn’t even afford to let his grief for his own losses show, because he wasn’t supposed to be grieving any losses in the first place, that was the whole point of the con!

Additionally, couple this with the fact that throughout this time period, Dick didn’t have Tim to lean on at all, because it was never that Dick kicked Tim out or neglected him or didn’t care....he’d actively stressed how much he needed Tim, because the partner Tim was convinced Dick chose ‘over’ him - Dick was the first one to admit back then that he DIDN’T trust Damian yet, couldn’t afford to, because he was all too aware that Damian didn’t give a fuck about him yet and couldn’t be guaranteed to step in to have Dick’s back - because that required mutual trust that Dick literally just hadn’t had time to build yet. And add to THAT the fact that during this time, Jason was actively antagonizing the family and Dick in particular at every turn, trying to bring them all down and basically write over what all of them saw as Bruce’s legacy with Jason’s own version of what he thought that should look like.

Also also, take into account that unlike how often we see fanon depict Dick as just too stubborn or proud to ask for help, there’s the fact that he actually had very few avenues TO ask for help! As already established, he DID ask Tim for help. Not like Jason was an option at this time, and Dick’s friends weren’t actually just sitting waiting in the wings and groaning about the fact that Dick was trying to do all of this solo....nah, they kinda had their own problems, which Dick was all too aware of?

Like the fact that in the wake of Final Crisis, it wasn’t just Bruce that was believed lost. Many other key Leaguers like Martian Manhunter were dead or lost, with others struggling to fill the gaps left in their absence. Cry For Justice happened right after Final Crisis too....that story where Lian was murdered? So it wasn’t like Dick was remotely going to try leaning on Roy when Roy had just lost his freaking DAUGHTER and very much wasn’t handling it well (and not to overshadow Roy’s loss at ALL, but please let’s not act like Dick - who had literally been the person to put a baby Lian in Roy’s arms for the first time and had known that girl for pretty much her entire life - like, it shouldn’t be used to detract from Roy’s loss at all, but it shouldn’t have to, to just acknowledge that Lian’s loss right at this exact time was painful as fuck to Dick, who’d loved his niece like crazy.)

The pattern of compounding, concurrent losses in Dick’s life. I’m just saying. Its there.

And it extends into the New 52 as well, where Forever Evil came right on the heels of Dick losing his circus in THIS continuity to the Joker, just as a way to hurt him in Death of A Family. And with the aftermath of Forever Evil and Dick’s own literal death, being like....the complete loss of Dick’s entire life, even though he was revived quickly. That didn’t mean he got to live HIS life though, since Dick Grayson was believed dead and he was told had to remain so, so its like fuck whatever he actually wanted to do as he went about on the Spyral mission aka something that pinched his own sense of morality and personal agenda at every turn and was kinda the last thing a therapist would recommend for a trauma recovery period, lol. And like, for all the focus that was paid to how Dick’s family were hurt because they believed they’d lost him when he was actually alive, let’s not forget that for all intents and purposes, Dick DID lose his family in the wake of his resurrection because he was flat out told over and over that due to what ‘he’d LET happen to him’ he was an ACTIVE danger to them, and thus wasn’t allowed by Bruce to contact any of them or lean on them to any degree, until Bruce got amnesia and stopped blocking Dick’s pleas to return home by just not being there to pick up the secret phone line at all. 

(And omg, the obliviousness that just EMANATES off the hot takes that Dick had a ‘choice’ in all this and he still CHOSE to do what Bruce told him....like. LOLOL, stop being pissy about me bringing up the term abuse apologism when its literal victim blaming to paint the guy who had to be beaten into ‘agreeing’ to the Spyral mission in the immediate wake of the trauma of DYING, all while his father vocally blamed him for his own suffering and the ‘threat’ he now posed to his family, keying directly into the guilt complex Bruce knows damn well is at the core of most of Dick’s motivations.....fucking please. There’s no choice in all that. That’s active emotional, mental and physical abuse aimed at directly manipulating Dick’s actions, delivered by the guy who knows Dick best in the world and whose approval - particularly when Dick is at absolute rock bottom aka Current Location - matters more to Dick than just about anything because his sense of self-worth has more in common with dog shit than actual dog shit does. Or something. Idk. That analogy got away from me. But like. You get it.)

BUT. I. DIE. GRESS. (I guess).

Aaaaaaanyway, so yeah! That repeating pattern throughout Dick’s life of ‘loss? What loss (singular)? My losses only come in groups, lolol, fuuuuuun’ - mmmm. Yeah. So that’s what’s on MY brain right now. Thoughts?

[val-el]

this is going to be mostly meta and analysis based on my own read-throughs of jason, but it's something i've been thinking about a lot lately.

there's so much to his character from before he died, and so many writers in DC and some people in the fandom tend to ignore it and focus on the fact that he died and came back. when there's so much more than that. and because DC rarely explores that themselves, you have to go back and read it.

i know we talk about how jason's tragedy is coming back from the dead a lot, which it is! but there's another layer to the fact that his story deals with cycles of crime and poverty, and the fact that he went from wanting to break that cycle to being the red fucking hood is also part of the tragedy.

part of the tragedy is dying a hero, dying to protect someone you love, and being okay with that. and then you get brought back and become part of the cycle you had already broken.

jason was raised in crime. he may not have been actively participating in it, but it was still prominent in his life. before dc retconned it, willis was working as a henchmen in order to support his family. it paid medical bills, it put food on the table, and crime never stopped. he'd always have a job. he wasn't an abusive asshole, and he wasn't absent. he was doing his fucking best with what he had. and i'm not going to get into the gritty details of what does and doesn't make crimes justified -- this is just important background to how jason views crime as a whole. after willis died, catherine turned to crime, too -- because she was sick, and self-medicated via drugs, and eventually that killed her instead of her sickness.

this leads to jason boosting cars, which he talks about with bruce, saying; "I don't want to be no crook. I just boost what I gotta to survive." (this is in his post-crisis origin, starting in Batman 1940 #408). even when bruce sends him to a boarding school, crime follows him there, because the principal is running a crime ring out of it.

and because jason was raised where crime was necessary, this affects his relationship with being robin, and even his relationship with bruce as a kid. when bruce takes him in, it's jason being told that he doesn't have to turn to crime anymore.

however.

bruce views crime as something that needs to be stopped and destroyed, and jason sees crime as something necessary, and this is what causes them to butt heads. it's this difference in views that make things tense between batman and robin. and when jason becomes red hood, he doesn't stop the crime, he controls it, makes sure that kids aren't getting sold drugs and parents that are trying to put food on the table continue to do so, and punishes assholes like black mask.

and there's a lot of controversy around his actions as red hood, but at the end of the day, he's doing what he thinks is good for gotham. him and bruce, ultimately, have the same goal. because they were batman and robin. but they view the world differently, enough so that that wedge will always be there. and i think taking away bruce's fortune and putting him on the streets of gotham might make him finally see things from jason's point of view, and that can start actually improving their relationship.

because jason's already meeting him halfway with the rubber bullets and leash on killing, but bruce still doesn't understand.

anyway. jason broke the crime cycle when he became robin, when he died a hero. coming back repaired the cycle, in a way. crime is familiar to jason, and necessary, and so being red hood wasn't just about the joker and his death and lack of being avenged. it was also about deciding batman wasn't what gotham needed and stepping up to fill in the gaps the bat symbol leaves.

thank you and good night.

being so serious when i say people shouldn't be allowed to talk about red hood jason until they've read his appearances as robin

[our-happygirl500-fan]

You know the whole Baterang to the throat thing that causes a lot of discussion in the fandom? I think Bruce might not have been aiming for the throat

It ricochets

This point in comics Bruce has been through a ringer Steph's died, Barbara and Jim have left, Leslie betrayed him and he's had to send Cass and Tim away and now Jason is back but for revenge so Bruce isn’t at his best and I think Bruce threw the Baterang in a moment of panic and either over or undershot which ended up with well that.

This moment causes a lot of debate but I don't see it as “Bruce harming Jason to save the joker” the way a lot of fics paint it I see it more as he'd been aiming for Jason's arm or something to disarm him but overshot and it’s kind of like a symbolism of their relationship. 

 Which is basically Bruce takes an action to stop Jason from going down a path that he thinks will end up hurting Jason, but ends up hurting Jason in the long-run.

Like when he discussed taking away robin from Jason (because he thought Jason needed time to deal with issues that were becoming more prevalent) which only ended up making Jason feel insecure about his position in the Wayne household, contributing to why he so desperately pursued a stable parental relationship in his biological mother.

Bruce knows that if he gives in and kills the Joker he'll never stop killing we've seen timelines that prove that and I think Bruce also thinks the same of Jason that if Jason kills the Joker he won't stop at all so it’s not that he’s saving the Joker but that he’s trying to save Jason but Bruce ultimately misunderstands Jason’s needs and winds up hurting him.

Bruce is trying to save Jason from what he sees as a downwards spiral, but he ends up hurting him not just emotionally, but physically, and in the most extreme way possible. It's like an even darker echo of how trying to bench him as Robin led to his death.

Bruce has spent YEARS haunted by the memory of Jason’s death his death fundamentally changed Bruce's entire character Alfred said that Jason's death affected Bruce more than his own parents death.

In Underworld Unleashed it's revealed that his greatest desire is to have Jason back, in Hush he talks about how he wanted to put Jason in the Lazarus Pit and how he believes Jason knew he always loved him, and in As The Crow Flies we learn that his greatest fear is Jason coming back as an enemy and then in Under the Red Hood he gets Jason back (his greatest desire) but as an antagonist (his greatest fear) and moreover his belief that Jason 'knew' he loved him is WRONG.

Jason's insecurities from before his death combined with the perceived betrayal of Bruce not avenging him have led Jason to the point where he genuinely believes Bruce doesn't care, and in Jason's eyes, killing the joker is the only way Bruce can prove that he does but instead, in that moment, Bruce's attempt to diffuse the situation backfires.

Bruce misunderstands what Jason needs in that moment like he misunderstood what Jason needed at the start of Death in the Family it's just the ultimate representation of their constant emotional feedback loop. They trap themselves in a cycle of fighting because Jason can't read how Bruce really feels and Bruce can't read what Jason really needs and in that moment both those things are true, with Jason not seeing that Bruce truly cares anymore, and Bruce not knowing how to properly deescalate the situation and show Jason that he still cares.

It's extremely easy to read the batatrang throw as purposeful even though I wholly believe it was accidental but if that moment was explored more, I'm positive that Jason would believe it wasn't an accident, and would view it as proof of his already held view that Bruce doesn't love him anymore after all, that could have killed him, symbolically disowning him in the most extreme way possible.

Heck in Jason's appearance in Green Arrow (2001) Bruce had thought Jason might have died again! Before Jason turned up to mess with Mia.

The thing that's tragic about Jason that actually leads to a lot of his own suffering is that Jason doesn't really know what a healthy relationship looks like so I'm not sure when his actual 'last straw' would be.

Jason is the kind of person who sees love and acceptance as entirely circumstantial. He believes he must /earn/ love and acceptance, i.e. by being Robin, rather than it being inherently given.

A huge piece of understanding Robin Jason is understanding how much he lacked proper support systems back then. School was his only connection to his kids his age, and he didn't benefit much from that connection, his life was essentially: manor, school, Robin, repeat.

Jason loved school, but his school life was also pretty depressing. Jason kept to himself, he didn't have the time to participate in extracurriculars even when he wanted to and his peers didn't view him very positively. Jason was also really isolated from the rest of the hero community, there was his stint with the Titans, but it was pretty brief. He was also penpals with Kid Devil, but for the most part, he just had Batman.

The lack of support is actually one of the reasons I give for Jason and Steph dying in universe since they were the two Robins without support systems outside of Gotham. When Bruce was a jerk Dick and Tim could be like 'fine I'm going to go hang out with the Teen Titans or Young Justice' but Jason and Steph could only be like 'oh no' plus Bruce would deliberately try to take away Steph's support systems that she did have multiple times like when he ordered Cass to stop training with Steph.

But that's besides the point, I wouldn't be surprised if Jason confused being Robin with being accepted in the manor so when Bruce threatened to take away Robin from him, he might've seen it as his only proper support system being taken away from him, his world felt rocked back into instability once again.

When you look at it like that, it's very easy to understand why Jason sought out his biological mother. He had a hope that Sheila would offer him that stability once more, and that he'd get support and trust and unconditional love.

And that’s what make it all the more heartbreaking to me he came to this woman seeking love and gave her his greatest secret and she repaid him with a horrific death.  Jason’s death is one of the saddest to me because there’s no high stakes 'he died saving the world stuff' he’s just a kid who wanted a mom and got killed for it.

DC’s habit of taking away who he was is so detrimental to his backstory as the Red Hood because the transformation from someone who tried being kind and who did give it their all being killed for it and coming back like ‘no more’ is so much more interesting than ‘we always knew this would happen’.

Robin disobeying orders is nothing new. If that was the core of why Jason died, then any Robin disobeying orders should never be put in a positive light, but often it is. Jason (and Steph) were just the ones unlucky enough to emerge dead and judged for it instead of alive and praised for it.

Jason died because he was a child who just wanted to be safe and loved.

So many times Robin disobeying orders saved lives it’s nothing new and Jason had a pretty solid reason, the story of Jason Todd should be portrayed as the tragedy not make him some warning sign.

This is why I always hated the victim blaming after Jason & Steph's deaths because they died doing what if it had been Tim or Dick a Robin would be praised for, like take Steph for example we've seen constant stories of Bruce firing Robin, them going off on their own & Bruce realising he's wrong & taking them back but when Steph goes off on her own she dies the only reason Jason & Steph died is that the writers forced them to fail where they would have allowed the others to succeed.

But anyway back to my point the thing about Jason feeling like he had to earn love is why he was initially so hung up on the idea of Bruce 'replacing' him when he came back to life, he viewed Tim being robin as Bruce /transferring/ his love for Jason to another person, rather than seeing that Bruce could love Tim while still loving and missing him.

The reason Jason sought out his mother after Bruce benched him as Robin was that he viewed Bruce benching him as Bruce rejecting him and latched onto the idea of finding someone, i.e. a birth mother, who is supposed to give /unconditional love/.

The fact that his birth mother REJECTED HIM and then played a hand in his murder undoubtedly affected his attitude when he came back, if even his mother didn't want him, and then Bruce let the joker live and replaced him, then, in Jason's eyes, OF COURSE Bruce doesn't care and as mentioned previously Jason didn't really have any friends in school or the hero community, believing that the only real close personal connection in your live, someone you spent all your time with, had forgotten about you and rejected you is bound to mess a person up.

[thattimdrakeguy]

TIM DRAKE’S CANONICAL ORIGIN - No fanon, no misconceptions, just what’s on the page. “BATMAN NEEDS ROBIN.”

When it comes to Tim’s origin and general backstory, there’s been a LOT of misconceptions and misinformation spread about it, that either change the vibe, or the entire events in-general.

So as Tim as a character means a lot to me. I thought it’d be good post to make a big post explaining Tim’s origin as best and clear as I can, as most people don’t have access to his original origin to be able to see for themselves.

It essentially goes like this:

This moment here, is more or less how it all began for Tim. Getting to meet Dick was something that stuck with him for more than one reason. A good reason, but also a very bad reason.

Tim’s parents (actually just his mother) where worried that Tim would be very scared of his time at the circus, and so his parents asked The Flying Graysons if they would take a picture with him to show that they were just people despite all the costumes.

Although, that was just a mother’s worry, because Timmy was actually having a blast.

Dick immediately stuck with Tim, and it’s even where the first hair ruffle between them happened all those years before they truly knew each other.

But then, as things would have it, this was the last day The Flying Graysons flew across the trapeze, and they would die that night. Traumatizing the tiny toddler Tim.

He reveals all of this to Dick Grayson, who he worries about hurting from telling him, given the obvious trauma Dick would face from having such a tragedy effect him.

This event being so engrained into Tim’s mind made this event not only be the spawning point for the original Robin with Dick Grayson, but also the third (and as of this post, present) Robin with the boy this post is about, Tim Drake.

He couldn’t forget about what he seen that night since it practically haunted him from that day forward. It wouldn’t leave him, but despite the PTSD it gave the little toddler Tim, it also ended up leading to another important part of Tim’s origin.

His haunted memories, that gave him PTSD, and nightmares for years, allowed him to remember details that would lead to find out Batman and Robin’s secret identities. Which would ultimately lead to his biggest jump towards Robin.

The next stage of his origin wouldn’t take place till he was thirteen. He kept the identities safe, and to himself as he genuinely did care about Batman and Robin.

Cared about them so much to the point he risked his own life for them.

--

And here’s where a big misconception about Tim’s origin and backstory comes from. People think that Tim was out searching for Batman every day and night, but that’s not distinctly true, as in actuality, as far as his origin shows and says. Tim only searched for him on this one day, because he was worried about him. He just clipped newspapers, watched the news, and made fan art instead.

He later explains that his escapades was because he was worried about Batman after the trauma Bruce felt after Jason’s death. Batman was becoming more violent and on a rampage, and Tim sought to go find Dick Grayson to ask him to become Robin again to help Bruce remember what he was like before, and to not sink any lower.

Tim was pretty much in love with Batman and Robin during his childhood. They could never leave his brain, both after the night the Graysons died and he saw Batman, and after he solved the case of their identities. It can be assumed that after figuring out who they were he grew even more of a connection to them. A face and humanity to the icons that he was obsessed with as a kid and even then, he still loved them so much as when he showed up to them again he was still a little kid. He cared about them a lot, and worried about him.

During his origin we get a very good idea of what Tim is like: He’s very very naïve almost to the point of danger, he conducts himself in a very socially oblivious way, he has a very big smart brain that can figure stuff out but still follows his heart, he often doesn’t know any better, he’s excitable just by seeing them but you can also tell by his expressions that he’s still very very anxious and nervous, he’s brave, will fight for what he thinks is right, and puts his heart into anything he loves/cares about.

On top of that, he shows that he has an insanely natural and instinctual sense of detective work. He’s absolutely impressive for as small and young as he is.

He went from Gotham City in New Jersey to New York City where the Titans where, shown to just be riding on his bike (although it’s fair to assume he also took busses), got his own hotel room, searched how where they lived and all else.

Which is a heck of a lot of things to do for a little boy as sheltered as Tim was.

Yet the way it’s portrayed, it comes across like Tim genuinely just didn’t know any better. He had this goal that he wanted to accomplish, and despite the fact that most people’s logic would say that it’s too dangerous, he just goes for it.

All just because he wants Batman to go back to what he remembered. A Batman that wouldn’t risk the lives of the people he fought, or beat them to near-death. He hoped in his heart that he could be able to bring back a happier Batman, and that he could hopefully have Batman remember who he used to be before Jason’s death.

Tim thought that Batman needed a Robin, because Batman needed something to remember who he was. Something that would bring him back from his lonely, more aggressive self, and back to being more of the true, blue, hero he once was.

Which is insanely naïve, and unrealistic, but, hey he did it, I suppose.

He continued to use his detective skills to find Dick.

Who as fate would have it, ended up finding Tim sneaking through the trash because Tim was trying to solve a crime that was committed at Haly’s Circus.

Something that I enjoy about this story as well, as a bit of a side note, is that Tim isn’t portrayed as a Gary Stu despite his massive general talent in solving crimes, because Tim doesn’t beat Dick, and Tim doesn’t actually get the culprit of the crime right either.

They still show that despite how clever, and brave Tim can be, that he’s still a little kid that doesn’t know nearly as much as he likes too.

Not that it stops Tim from fanboying Dick even more so.

Eventually Tim gets the chance to explain to Dick his main purpose of showing up is.

Where he also shows hints of his very simplistic and black and white way of thinking. As he seems to not be aware of the nuances that many people actually think with. To the point that he’s actually indirectly offensive.

Which is a habit of Tim, but he’s never hurtful out of malice (at least until they wanted him edgy, or he genuinely isn’t enjoying the person he’s with), he’s mostly just hurtful out of ignorance. He doesn’t know better, and he’s shown regretting it when ever the person reacts in the ways you expect.

Tim actually shows a lot of signs of having Autism, but that’s never really been a thing they go into, but it is an interesting thing to note. As Tim shows a lot of Autistic traits.

They go to stately Wayne Manor, where Tim mainly repeats what he’s there for, and goes into detail about his backstory, which I’ve shown earlier in the post.

and explains where his parents are, and where he lives.

A lot of people seem to think they just always left Tim alone and he went to public school, but Tim didn’t go to public school till his Robin miniseries.

Although, I don’t know what happens during a vacation week, like I don’t know if they stay or not, but since Tim’s shown having a nanny during his ongoing, I figure it’s safe to say he still had a nanny then as well.

Also to note that, in this and his appearances shortly after, he seems to be really oblivious that his parents were in the wrong for leaving him with other people instead of actually raising him. That is until later where Tim shows that he clearly does realize eventually. 

They also have Alfred reading into Dick’s way of thinking as they imply that he wants Tim to become the next Robin.

Because Dick certainly doesn’t want to be Robin again.

But they sort of contradict Dick’s feelings here, as Dick’s shown to be fed up with Tim’s insensitivity even if Tim does genuinely mean well.

So I’m not sure what really happened there. I have to guess that it’s mainly just Alfred that wants Tim to become Robin again, but he can’t admit that to himself just yet.

Tim panics and cries on realization that he offended Dick, and shows once again that he’s just a child that can’t and doesn’t understand what all he needs to in order to understand the situation. 

He’s just a small kid that wants his heroes to be okay again.

Which after Dick and Batman get into danger, Tim decides on one thing, even if Dick won’t be Robin again, Batman still needs a Robin.

He even makes it clear that despite fantasizing what being Robin would be like, that he never wanted it for himself. He’s just doing it, because no one else will and he feels he has to. He’s stepping up to the plate and becoming the hero he feels he needs to be.

Even if it ends with Alfie the Butler having to save him, because like I said before, despite his smarts, Tim definitely wasn’t a Gary Stu. He was a great detective, very brave, acrobatic, and knew karate, but evidentially he wasn’t very great at karate and didn’t know enough about what he was getting himself into.

Not that he doesn’t prove himself useful at all. As he actually ends up saving their lives even if he still ended up nearly breaking his freaking limbs apart doing it, but ayy, when that adrenaline pumps.

and this is the last important part of the origin to show, besides the part where Bruce agrees to train Tim.

He gives his speech, he pours his heart out, and can only hope that he got into Batman’s heart enough for him to listen to him, and would allow Tim to take his place by Batman’s side, and earning Alfred and Dick’s approval in the process (if they didn’t have it already).

--

So Tim wasn’t an over-talented, mega mature, Gary Stu, that was left alone to cry at his parents house, and stalked Batman and Robin every night, till the day he decided he was going to be Robin himself.

In actuality Tim was just an innocent, naïve little boy, that didn’t have enough supervision, that went out of his way to meet Batman and Nightwing just in hopes that they’d listen to him, because he was so worried about Batman’s well-being, and thought that only Robin could really solve it. He was talented as far as detective skills go, but even then he didn’t solve the case at the circus. He just had enough talent to show that he had it in him to become something more, and he persevered through to do it.

With so much misinformation spread about Tim’s origin, I think quite a few don’t really get the pathos and ethos out of it that they would if they had his origin available for themselves to read.

Because you can get quite a different image than what was actually on the page for Timmy’s origin story.

He’s just a well-meaning, oblivious boy, that probably should’ve had someone watching over him, with potential for a big brain in him.

He’s not the brightest bulb, or the toughest fighter, but what they do show in his origin is that he had a big heart, and plenty of enthusiasm to be a good Robin. He had the care and determination to make sure things were better before he left, even if his hopes were naïve.

His empathy and determination really is what got him the job. His detective work was just what helped him get to where he needed to be to really show that to them.

Tim Drake’s the little boy that said “Batman needs Robin”.

[phantomchick]

Ok like I’m not 100% sure on who I’d say you’re passionate about (character-wise) except for Jason Todd, so if you want to post some musings on him I’d be thrilled to hear them :]

Ooooh maybe because I love this character so much it's a little hard to articulate my feelings about this? I'll do my best though! Thank you for the ask.

So:

Top five ideas/concepts/etc that I believe are essential to accurately depicting Jason Todd

1. The Core, The tragedy; the crux, the turning point, whatever you wanna call it, the pathos of Jason Todd's character lies in the fact that he was good, before he died.

He was a good Robin.

A good hero, someone who loved Bruce and loved life even with the messy complicated bits and was loved in return, someone with their whole future ahead of them. That's what makes the confrontation in UTRH so fucking sad. The fact that Jason was the best of us and Bruce knows it, the fact that Bruce and Jason made a great team, father and son, batman and robin, they worked well together they were partners side by side and yet they're so far apart now and there's the question of whether they'll ever be able to close this vast gaping rift that's between them and there's the sinking knowledge that that love, devoted and constant as it was may always be lost because of irreconcilable differences. A pivotal aspect of Jason's character, his trauma and foundation, is that before "he took me away from you", before Jason was brutally murdered and came back only to find another kid wearing his identity and living in his house and his murderer still breaking out of prison every year to kill, before all that, he was good. And he was innocent and that innocence is gone and he'll never get it back. Bruce might never get him back, something that aches especially after seeing how much Jason's loss has haunted him over the years in comics like Knightfall. If you retroactively make him a bad Robin, a violent person who solves his problems with murder and was always going to grow up to be a violent person who solves his problems with murder? Then that central tragedy becomes warped, it undermines the entire narrative, the entire emotional heft and weight of the character and the character's bonds.

2. What motivates him and why. In the words of the great @cerusee try to think about the psychological processes, or the experiences of events Jason might have had that could connect child Jason to adult Jason; that gives you a lens with which to interpret adult actions and assume motivations. You can also explore the emotional disconnect between the two if that's what you like!

3. Make him competent! It doesn't make sense for him to be otherwise, he had a 4.0 gpa and overall excellent grades in school to the extent he was considered a nerd by some of his classmates, he was trained by the Batman as well as the league of Assassins who trained the Batman, not to mention the line up of teachers of various expertise Talia provided for him in a literal replication of the training journey Bruce himself went through, and that's before you even get into the likes of the All Caste and their time distorting pocket dimension. Additionally, during UTRH he literally took over the entirety of the Gotham criminal underground in a fortnight and that was just a step in his plan to get the Joker out to kill him, this man is meticulous, goal oriented, observant and incredibly capable. Gotham gang crime is an immense network that's been clearly portrayed as vast and untenable in comics of that time such as Birds of Prey, War Crimes (terrible as it was) and Nightwing. Not to mention the Batman depictions of it such as Long Halloween and Dark Victory. He singlehandedly broke the stranglehold Black Mask had on the city that Batman was temporarily letting stand due to wanting things to settle after the events of Batman: War Crimes. It really grates when people make him less skillful or less intelligent than he rightfully should be.

4. Make bold decisions about what you envision the character as and don't let the canon dictate your boundaries. It's totally valid to ignore entire swathes of canon if you find them ooc! I personally find a lot of his canon characterisation all over the place at best and viciously classist and clickbaity in development at worst. Whether it's using him to prop up another robin of the hour in comparison, just using him as a violent reckless misguided foil to Batman or portraying him as a lesser person and more of an antagonist than a hero and retroactively making him 'someone who never should've been made robin' thereby again undercutting and sabotaging their own narrative for no good reason, there is a lot of sucky canon to wade through and pick apart if you want a coherent characterisation. Like in that one Rhato issue where Jason hallucinates Joker killing Robin Jason and younger hallucination Jason cries out to his older self for help? And Jason having experienced this hallucination several times before, knows he can't really help, sits back and does nothing (until after robin-him dies and then killing Joker for self satisfaction despite knowing the pointlessness of it), the whole issue served to not so subtly re-contextualise Jason as the villain and the one to blame in his own murder, "it's not just Joker killing Robin it's Jason himself who lets happen!" heavy handed way to excuse dc for the responsibility of the writing choice or what. Stuff like that and like battle for the cowl is common and beyond fucked up and it's fine to ignore it and pick and choose what you accept. However, importantly it is equally valid to come up with motivations and reasoning for morally messed up portrayals of him in comics like Nightwing: Brothers in Blood or Battle for the Cowl, if that serves more cathartic for you. I mean @envysparkler on ao3 has an entire catalogue of re-imaginings of the scene where he beats Tim up in Titans tower and I love their stuff. There are also people who vibe with the modern portrayal of him because they identify with him as a victim of Batman's failures/jerkishness and enjoy his darker side. I enjoy those kinds of call out fics and too! @lananiscorner has some great arkham knight stuff especially. However personally? I generally find the more modern canon portrayals of Batman, especially when it comes to his dynamic with Jason, grim dark and overly edgy. Batman is a wish fulfilment hero inspired by the romanticism of fictional heroes that came before him the likes of the Scarlet Pimpernel, Zorro, The Phantom, The Shadow as well as detective stories like The Bat, Dick Tracy and Sherlock Holmes. He's supposed to be someone who saves, who inspires, who has the ability to make a difference, he's the wish fulfilment of being able to save the day by punching the problem and alternatively having enough resources and money to make a difference in a societal way, he's mysterious, he's dark, he's broody but has a core of compassion and kindness behind his every action. He's supposed to be heroic! And heroes don't abuse their kids. It's hard to find the tolerance line of what's still acceptable as Batman messing up and being emotionally inept Batman.. and not being acceptable as Batman. This got long winded but basically... In my opinion, a core concept to keep in mind while writing Jason? Is ignoring a lot of what's written about Jason. The same applies to the characters closest to him and his relationships with them. Use your own judgement.

5. Remember the core! In this case the core appeal. For me. He's a character rooted in hiraeth, he can't go back and doesn't know if he'd want to now, but the fact remains that place that used to be his is gone. Along with the future he could've had. But is he doomed to brood and linger on that? Where is he going? What does he want most? Jason isn't apathetic, he cares deeply about everyone he meets, about his family, about his past and about his choices. Is he someone who kills because with the likes of the Joker, there's no other option if you want to prevent them from killing the innocent, it's been proven demonstrably that containing them doesn't work. Or is he just someone who'll kill any criminal, ala The Punisher? Someone who Batman doesn't trust not to kill. There's also the sense of isolation and craving for love while simultaneously distrusting it, as well as the way he compares himself, his worth, how much his father cares, with his siblings. While exploring his relationships with other characters and his struggles with his past, his future and his motivations for his type of justice. I think it's interesting to remember the idea that he's someone who's very lost and lonely, someone who grieves for not having been grieved, someone without a love he can trust. Jason is terribly kind, and terribly angry and, terribly, terribly sad all at the same time. I think for me that's where the whump hits hardest. The fact that he's lashing out is undeniable, but also relateable. It's good to keep in mind what draws you to a character as well as what kind of stories about them hit you hardest when you yourself are trying to write them, I try to always keep that in mind when writing Jason especially. I want to write things that bring out the appeal, the thing that makes him resonate and attracts me. I like to put him in situations that show it off!

[magicaththedemigod]

an extensive analysis of “the song of achilles” by madeline miller

Or: things I noticed and couldn't keep to myself.

Because I just finished reading it and have many feelings about it, I've decided to compile all of them into a very lengthy Tumblr post.

This will be broken up into three parts:

1. Foreshadowing

2. Dramatic (and regular) Irony

3. Fatal Flaws

1. Foreshadowing

Miller does such a delightful job with foreshadowing. The number of quotes I could be spitting at you right now... but I digress. The main job of foreshadowing, especially in a tragedy like "The Song of Achilles," is to set the characters up for their tragedy.

What I like most about how Miller goes about it in this book is that she doesn't attempt to pull a shocking twist out of nowhere; instead, she takes an approach which allows the reader to fully marinate in their despair.

For example, this quote:

Achilles shook his head, impatiently. "But this was a greater punishment for her. It was not fair of them." "There is no law that gods must be fair, Achilles," Chiron said. "And perhaps it is the greater grief, after all, to be left on earth when another is gone. Do you think?"

Let's take a moment and unpack some of this. For context, this is a conversation between Patroclus, Achilles, and their mentor Chiron. They're discussing the tale of Heracles, who's driven to madness and ends up killing his own wife and kids.

From reading the book, (SPOILER ALERT) you know that Achilles' own pride and honor end up forcing Patroclus to impersonate him in order to save the Greek army, and in doing so is killed by Hector. The fact that Chiron directs this question, "And perhaps it is the greater grief, after all, to be left on earth when another is gone. Do you think?" to Achilles, who is left behind after Patroclus' death is such delightful foreshadowing that I almost threw the book across the room when I first read it.

Achilles slumps into such a depression after Patroclus dies (really, after he kills Patroclus with his own fatal flaw), that he even loses the ability to care about his fame or honor anymore. He feels the greater grief, so to speak.

Even after he dies, Patroclus is left behind, unable to rest properly because they never put his name on the tomb. In that sense, Patroclus is then the one left behind, experiencing loneliness and grief.

The book is full of little hints like this, and that's part of why it's almost torture to read as someone who knows how the Iliad goes. As I said before: the foreshadowing in this book is meant to have the reader in pain from the beginning because you know nothing is going to work out in the end.

2. Dramatic (and regular) Irony

Yes, that's right. I'm about to rip into your soul.

Probably one of the biggest parts of classical Greek myths is dramatic irony (the audience knowing something the characters don't). In plays, the ending is almost always announced before the play begins. In fact, the audience most likely already knows the story from previous tellings or just general knowledge. It makes sense that it would be one of the biggest players in "The Song of Achilles."

As usual, let's start with a quote:

His eyes opened. "Name one hero who was happy." I considered. Heracles went mad and killed his family; Theseus lost his bride and father; Jason's children and new wife were murdered by his old; Bellerophon killed the Chimera but was crippled by the fall from Pegasus' back. "You can't." He was sitting up now, leaning forward. "I can't." "I know. They never let you be famous and happy." He lifted an eyebrow. "I'll tell you a secret." "Tell me." I loved it when he was like this. "I'm going to be the first." He took my palm and held it to his. "Swear it." "Why me?" "Because you're the reason. Swear it." "I swear it," I said, lost in the high color of his cheeks, the flame in his eyes. "I swear it," he echoed. We sat like that a moment, hands touching. He grinned. "I feel like I could eat the world raw."

First of all: cute. Second of all: wow, so much pain.

As you know, Achilles is the opposite of happy at the end of the book (well, maybe after they die, but we'll get to that later). Though he swears it here with Patroclus, the two of them make decisions that ultimately lead to their downfall: Achilles decides to abandon the Greeks after they slighted his honor, Patroclus decides to help them even if it means risking his life, and Achilles lets him do it.

So let's talk about dramatic irony. The irony here is that you know, maybe just from this exchange alone, that Achilles isn't going to be the first happy hero. You know there is a war coming, know that Achilles and his famous heel will get himself killed. You might also know at this point that Patroclus will die first and send Achilles spiraling into grief before that happens.

It's painful, truly. Achilles spends his last days in utter agony, wanting to die but unable to kill himself, and Patroclus can only watch on as a ghost (spirit?). Even when Achilles does die and his ashes are put into their urn (seriously, how did any scholar ever think they weren't lovers?), they still have to wait to be reunited.

But there's still more. Consider these lines:

Hector's eyes are wide, but he will run no longer. He says, "Grant me this. Give my body to my family, when you have killed me." Achilles makes a sound like choking. "There are no bargains between lions and men. I will kill you and eat you raw."

Sound familiar? That's right: "I will kill you and eat you raw" sounds an awful lot like "I feel like I could eat the world raw," doesn't it? Another parallel from Miller: one from a time of happiness, the other from a time of extreme grief. However painful it is, I really live for connections like that.

And I've got one more for you:

Achilles shook his head. "Never. He is brave and strong, but that is all. He would break against Hector like water on a rock. So. It is me, or no one." "You will not do it." I tried not to let it sound like begging. "No." He was quiet a moment. "But I can see it. That's the strange thing. Like in a dream. I can see myself throwing the spear, see him fall. I walk up to the body and stand over it." Dread rose in my chest. I took a breath, forced it away. "And then what?" "That's the strangest of all. I look down at his blood and know my death is coming. But in the dream I do not mind. What I feel, most of all, is relief." "Do you think it can be prophecy?" The questions seemed to make him self-conscious. He shook his head. "No. I think it is nothing at all. A daydream." I forced my voice to match his in lightness. "I'm sure you're right. After all, Hector hasn't done anything to you."

See where I'm going with this? I don't think I need to explain this one.

3. Fatal Flaws

That's right, one of the most essential pieces for a tragedy: hamartia. For those who might not know, hamartia is the fatal flaw that ultimately leads to the downfall of a tragic hero or heroine. In every single piece of classical greek writing, if the story is a tragedy, the main character will have a fatal flaw that makes it so.

Take Achilles:

I looked at the stone of his face, and despaired. “If you love me-”

“No!” His face was stiff with tension. “I cannot! If I yield, Agamemnon can dishonor me whenever he wishes. The kings will not respect me, nor the men!” He was breathless, as though he had run far. “Do you think I wish them all to die? But I cannot. I cannot! I will not let them take this from me!”

You probably already know what his fatal flaw is: pride. He needs the fame, needs the glorious memory of his deeds to live on forever, so badly that he is willing to sacrifice his life and what might’ve been a fulfilling and long life with Patroclus out of the limelight. His fatal flaw is what spurs each of his actions in the later half of the book, including the moment where he decides to leave the Greeks to their deaths for slandering him.

Even Patroclus has a fatal flaw: his love for Achilles.

That night I lay in bed beside Achilles. His face is innocent, sleep-smoothed and sweetly boyish. I love to see it. This is his truest self, earnest and guileless, full of mischief but without malice. He is lost in Agamemnon and Odysseus’ wily double meanings, their lies and games of power. They have confounded him, tied him to a stake and baited him. I stroke the soft skin of his forehead. I would untie him if I could. If he would let me.

Though riding into the center of the fighting, especially dressed as Achilles, will make Patroclus the prime target, he decides to do it anyway. And not out of fear for Achilles’s life; he knows how important his pride and reputation is to him, and out of desperation will do anything to keep Achilles from being devastated when it doesn’t work out for him.

(Honestly, this is the part where I start to hate Achilles for doing this to Patroclus... it’s like he doesn’t even consider Patroclus his equal and does everything without consulting him.)

Of course, Agamemnon has a fatal flaw as well. He is like the mirror image of Achilles, so proud and stubborn, righteous and arrogant. However, he is the darker image, the one that revels in taking things by force and, of course, raping women like Briseis. He serves as a poignant foil for Achilles, highlighting all the ways the traits they share can easily become corrupted. It’s part of why this novel works so well.

I hope you all enjoyed this book as much as I did. Truthfully, I did have a few problems with it, but I wanted to trying picking it apart anyway. And if you haven’t read the song of achilles... what are you doing reading these spoilers?? 

[mademoiselleseraph]

Do I really think this would make Catherine better or do I just want it to be more like Perfect Blue?

AU where Vincent is an aspiring actor still trying to make it big at age 32. He has talent, dammit, but he never seems to get the right auditions at the right times. He's lost more than one job over prioritizing his potential acting career and is lucky that Orlando got him a job with a little more leeway at his workplace.

He does love Katherine-with-a-K, but he'd be lying if he said their relationship wasn't beneficial to him and his ability to chase his dreams. She's paid his bills a few times and she honestly doesn't mind if she'll pay his bills for the rest of their lives, she just wants something to show for it. And honestly, it's worrying that he wants to do something where so much can go wrong and he isn't even insured. Katherine herself got into fashion by designing otokoyaku costumes for stories that would make great Takarazuka shows when the should have been studying. The first conversation they had was about the performance arts. She wouldn't ask him to give up his dream but would it kill him to be more realistic?

The first night out with the guys we see has Vincent tell them that he went to audition for Romeo in a production of Romeo and Juliet. But they were hoping for someone younger and prettier so he read for the part of Paris instead. When Toby admits he didn't actually read it in school, Jonny explains that Paris is the romantic rival. Vincent scoffs at this, objecting that Paris is the one Juliet doesn't want to marry, and would rather die than marry. Toby responds with a sympathetic "ouch."

When the mysterious Catherine-with-a-C shows up she makes a point to mention that she has connections. Helpful connections.

And after waking up with her in his bed and no memory of how she got there, he gets a call from the theatre company. They went with someone else and he apologizes for wasting their time but the director on the other end says their sister company is casting Hamlet and they put in a good word for him as the title character. It would suit him much better than Paris. He thanks them profusely and writes down the address and time so he can make it. He'll have to cancel plans with his actual girlfriend Katherine, but she'll understand.

You don't get suggested for Hamlet after being a Paris so sub-par you don't even get a call-back. It just doesn't happen. Something's fishy here. And yet... maybe that girl had something to do with it. She did have connections, didn't she?

And so it goes. Vincent goes home and passes out after a night at the bar, seeing the same girl every night. He finds himself exposed, clawing his way to the top of a shaky tower. He can't stop or get too comfortable or it will fall from underneath his feet. Sometimes he has to push others down to get there. He wakes up next to that girl he can't remember saying yes to or inviting home and he finally starts actually landing the roles he tries for in tv and film. They're not leads, but the characters are named and have a good amount lines and personality.

Jonny mentions that his girlfriend is an opera singer, and discusses plot points in Faust, her current production, with Vincent, who studied Goethe's version of the tale in college. They talk about nude witches and smutty metaphores involving apple trees, and of course, the betting of one's soul.

Toby describes Vincent chasing his dreams as inspiring. Vincent wonders at what point does inspiring mean desperate and pathetic, but in a cute way.

Erica and Vincent were in a Greek tragedy club in high school that cast the characters "the traditional way" and Vincent remembers taking the role of Jason in Euripides' Medea so Erica could play the title role. He jokes that she didn't seem offended at them letting her perform and she says they just weren't used to girls that looked like her then.

Two questions relevant to Vincent's role as Hamlet show up in the confessional. One is "who's responsible for the king's death?" The answers presented are Claudius, which leans toward order and Gertrude, which leans toward chaos. The other goes "Did Hamlet have a hand in Ophelia's demise?" The answer "he's not guiltless" leans toward order and the answer "it's not his fault she's sick" leans toward chaos.

The best ending for Catherine-with-a-C involves everyone at the bar wondering what happened to Vincent and catching a news story on the tv that he's set up to become a star like few others after showing up out of nowhere and landing roles that should have conflicting schedules left and right. He sounds like a pig in the interview, saying it's all about the connections and sometimes connections have nice legs and a waist you can wrap your hands around and that he's not looking for love but child support would take care of itself if his career keeps up like this. Everyone shares their disdain, hates his shades, and Jonny states that he'll give Katherine-with-a-K a call to make sure she's okay. We cut to the other Catherine sitting on the edge of the bed, grabbing Vincent's hair and saying, ever so sweetly, "I'm still your number one, aren't I?" And he leans in to kiss her, whispering "Anything you say," before his lips touch her neck.

In Katherine-with-a-K's best ending, Vincent mentions signing on to play the neighbor in a family comedy. It's not prestigeous and it won't get him any awards, but it's a steady paycheck, and they've even given him some creative leeway. The deal with his character is that he's head over heals with a lady way out of his league. He suggested that she could be a missed connection from high school, career-oriented, in the fashion industry, and named Katherine. They've accepted all this input. His girlfriend is touched by this and when they get married he declares that she'll be a bigger household name than him, and he can't wait to be known as her husband.

Rin's best ending involves him being a producer, yes, but any movie Rin composes a score for is contractually obligated to offer Vincent a cameo. By the time he dies he's sure people will make compilations of the cameos, construct elaborate theories of them all being the same universe-hopping character, dedicate memes to him, and the like. His legacy will be people on the internet having some harmless fun.

The Neutral ending has Vincent publishing a memoire of that week of nightmares, dedicated to "The two women who taught me what I was not and the person who saw me for what I was. I still think about you, Rin." He's well aware this won't be received as nonfiction, and so he's working an a manuscript for a fantasy novel. There's a hero and a dangerous tower and a god with ill intentions and, well, you'll have to read it to find out what else.