#I’m also reminded that all of the harrowing stuff she experienced so far is in the span of ONE YEAR

[wolflover2426]

Right! I feel like people forget that Marinette had seen some truly traumatic shit when the truth gets revealed to Adrien specifically, like people are forgetting that she’s traumatized by Chat Blanc and how she was trained under Master Fu and his principle is to always keep her secret identity and any secrets of the miraculous to herself. Plus, Ephemeral which was her sign that revealing their identities is still a risk while Hawkmoth was at large.

Also, Marinette was willing to dissolve her relationship with the Girl Squad back in Gang of Secrets because they were close to finding the Miracle Box. The fact she even opened up about her secret to her best friend is HUGE to her.

Plus, Marinette is clearly just so horrified and feels so guilty because she thinks it’s her fault that Gabriel is dead and Adrien is now all alone. The girl clearly struggled with even telling him that his father is now gone and probably wished she could bring him back for him because Marinette is selfless and wants Adrien to be happy.

Marinette clearly had good intentions and she wanted to soften the blow for Adrien because as we’ve seen what happened when Adrien finds out about Hawkmoth two times and both of them ended the world.

"well if I went through a harrowingly traumatic experience that involved being viciously attacked and watching two of my boyfriend's parents die and seeing the corpse of his third, i would feel completely comfortable telling him that his dead dad and extra parent were evil terrorists and also that he's been mind controlled his entire life and his existence is a lie and he's not even human. all on top of breaking the news to him that he’s been orphaned. at age 14"

speak for yourself man i can't even make phone calls

[ehlnofay]

tagged by @wispstalk to list five songs that remind me of my characters. this is a query that is perfect for me and also cruel and spiteful, because I have so many songs for all of my characters, complete with detailed analysis of which elements of their story the song is about and a video that plays in my head while I listen. the process of narrowing it down to five is the most harrowing thing I’ve experienced in all my life. and in the end the selection was not perfect. (there are other songs and bands I would have liked to include. alas.) in any case:

1. Metaphor by The Crane Wives

if arabella had a theme song, this would be it. the whole air of it is so perfect for her, the relationship it describes to language and communicating with people in general... it’s so. ugh. she DOES cut her teeth on secondhand sentiments. all these words ARE sweet and meaningless. you CAN’T trust a single thing she says!!

2. Second Child, Restless Child by The Oh Hellos

I love the oh hellos but it is not common for their music to make me think of my fictional medias; I am not sure why. this song however is the exception because it makes me think SO fully and completely of efri. so very and utterly. like she is restless and in my head her nickname is a nordic word alluding to being a younger child. it’s right there in the title before you even get to the lyrics about running far from all you’ve ever known. besides the song is the same age as her, which is neat, and also every time I listen to it I can see her dancing in my head. (she’s not a very good dancer, but she is enthusiastic!)

3: Dlora Yelps by Don’t

the music that reminds me of caelestis is unusually varied, which is very fun and also made picking one of zir songs very difficult. I chose this one because it was a musical niche that I didn’t have elsewhere on the list. this one to me is about caelestis and nerevar and the interplay between them; the dynamic between a guy and his maybe-partially-probably reincarnation is bound to be a weird one, metaphysically and emotionally, so that’s very interesting to me, and how ELSE am I supposed to interpret “I’m born once more / watered by the dewy dawns / and ankle deep in coupled thought”?

4: Secret Worlds by The Amazing Devil

there’s a number of TAD songs that make me think of pax, but this one has got to be the strongest. (martin’s there too, in the conversation of this song, and in the mind video. as a treat.) it so powerfully makes me think of them and their attitude to their role, and eventually the gorgeous way it all crashed and burned, that I incorporated it into an artwork I did some time ago (and have loose plans on doing it again.)

5: Ask Me Anything by S.J. Tucker

this isn’t technically my character... but, yes, it is. this song reminds me of my reimagining of sheogorath and how it relates to people to such a ludicrous extent that it in some small part inspired my short story Comfort. (the idea for that story lurked in my head for months, with several false starts playing around with different angles, before one day I was walking home listening to that song and it captured the sense of sheogorath’s attitude to its most favouritest random people so well that I started drafting stuff as soon as I got to my laptop. I get a lot of my story ideas listening to songs that make me think of them. it’s a delight.)

[raguna-blade]

So carrying on the shared symbol thing with persona games, here’s a fun one that probably needs more time in the oven but hey, can come back later with later revelations

So, here’s one that technically shows up in the first game but doesn’t really become a thing until (I am assuming, i still need to actually play the first few and finish most of them but whatever) Persona 3

Evokers! Also known as guns. Specifically hand guns, but I think that’s the least important detail when one of the big symbols of your game is shooting yourself in the head to summon mythic figures.

So Evokers. In game, and as per the wiki, they are supposed to function by more or less...making you face mortality and the fact that you’re going to die for real.

By simulating shooting yourself in the face. It’s a good thing that the Kirijo group already got their mad science comeuppance because man, that’s kinda...

But hey, the logic and rules at play here do seem to be consistent across the games. To Summon a persona requires, apparently, a huge amount of stress and or trauma to activate properly, and the Evokers are a fast way to do that that isn’t, comparatively anyway, super duper traumatic. It’s free artificial trauma for everyone that is comparatively less permanent.

Which...Well I don’t believe that for a second considering SEES is one big trauma center. I don’t think there is a single person in that group who is trauma free really. Nobody is free of it, even the dog.

I mean maybe the protag, but they come off as super depressed to me.

But for the moment let’s accept that as true. If i’m wrong i’m wrong, but I think i’m right and i want to get to the juicy stuff.

So given evokers function by applying trauma directly to the soul to summon yon persona, I think it’s obvious then what guns are SUPPOSED to represent right?

Trauma. But not just any kind of trauma no. Remember, Evokers are supposed to basically be going Hey Trauma But For A REASON. To Summon a Persona. A persona which is used to protect yourself from something (Shadows technically, but A persona is a mask used to face life’s struggles as the games are so fond of reminding us.)

So, Guns are Trauma Turned Towards Protecting Yourself from...something. My understanding of psych stuff is you know, layman, but basically it’s an active self defense mechanism. Or at least turning that pain on outside hurty things.

So if this holds true as a consistent and shared symbol going forward, we should expect that everyone who uses a gun is both

A: Traumatized in some manner.

2: Actively Defending themselves possibly by literally using that trauma against things.

Which i’m sure is totally a healthy thing to be doing. Has to be. Can’t not be right?

I can see no possible way in which using your trauma like a club against the world can possibly backfire on you.

SO!

Who uses guns in the series going forward.

In Persona 4, We have two for sure, maybe a third. That is Naoto, Adachi, and Maybe Dojima (I assume he HAS a gun, but I don’t think he’s ever shown using it. I’m going to assume for the moment this is true as fits the analysis, cause it fits well enough, but if he actually pulls it out ehh)

Persona 5 has uh...literally all of the phantom thieves. Technically not morganna, but if you think a slingshot isn’t basically a fire arm, well sure technically but also you can absolutely kill someone with a slingshot don’t get it twisted. But yeah, all of the phantom thieves and ESPECIALLY Akechi, since he uses a real one. Well, sans Futaba, but we’ll get there.

And do these individuals demonstrate being both traumatized AND using that as some kind of defense mechanism...?

yeh.

So start with P4. Now compare the other persona users in 3-5, the group in 4 is actually really well adjusted. Like yeah, you have some elements of stress and being an outcast and elements of weird harrowing stuff happening to them sure. I mean if nothing else they’re in the middle of a murder mystery with a serial killer in town, that’s stressful for anyone, let alone the weird supernatural shit on top of it, and then there’s the more mundane stressors.

But...Uh...Largely, they’re handling it pretty well actually. Protag was pretty alright moving to town and seems to get along with people well. Yosuke had the dislike of being in town but he had friends, he wasn’t really hated or anything. Chie is pretty alright, Yukiko is stressed but not exactly freaking out, Kanji has some shame going on however you want to frame that i’m told it reads different for japanese audiences though it’s not mutually exclusive, Teddie DID in fact have an existential crisis but that’s not really the same thing i think, Rise is hella stressed, and then there’s naoto who uh.

Kid’s got some problems. They’re also the only one who uses a gun So Hey First stop.

So depending on how you want to read it, Naoto is either dealing with some trans issues or just aggressive and unending misogyny given their profession. Personally while i can see the naoto is trans reading, the game doesn’t explicitly come out with that as the issue, while it DOES with the misogyny so I’m going with that. If you do think it’s more that than what i’m going with, you can easily sub it in I think since from what i’ve heard on the subject suggests it very much CAN be traumatizing dealing with that in society....And also because it’d still feed back into the misogyny thing so it comes back to that anyway.

Regardless. This is a thorny enough issue really, so i’ll strive to not fuck up but please forgive me if I do cause it’s not intentional.

What do we see with Naoto? They’re a genuinely skilled, talented and experienced detective, and at a really young age. Their skills are undeniable really, and they’ve got acclaim and real accomplishments under their belt.

They are also, apparently, belittled constantly because they’re read as female and that is apparently far far more important than their skill. Because of that they’re belittled, talked down to and dismissed purely because of that.

And Naoto is fucking tired of it. So much so that they do everything in their power to present as male and believe they should straight up just...cut out whatever lady aspects are there and just go full dude.

Which here you get two really radically(?) different readings depending on if you fall on the Naoto is Trans and so fucking tired of the misogyny vs Naoto Is fucking Tired of the misogyny and so damn desperate.

In case A, Naoto genuinely believes they’re a dude, and genuinely believes duding it up will solve their problem....But they’re rejecting that part of themselves actively, and refusing to acknowledge it at all. That’s a problem for him, if only because actively rejecting a part of yourself is by no means a healthy thing, especially when it keeps getting brought up constantly in your line of work (I can only imagine how much this would suck to be dismissed because people think you’re a girl when you’re a guy but also you’re denying that you’re a guy and recognize that even if you were outwardly a guy they would STILL dismiss you as a girl even though you’re not. Just typing that out is...yech.)

In Case B, you have a still tired of the dismissal, but also they think they radically need to change their body and gender just to get anywhere in the world which is egregiously fucked up because you know. She’s good at her job! Why should she HAVE to be a dude to get anything done? It’s fucked up.

But they’re a gunman! So...i mean i guess it’s obvious what the trauma at play here is, it’s gender related regardless of how you slice it and how is it used...? Naoto disguises (or “disguises”) themselves as a guy, actively using the thing that they’re being traumatized by to fight back against the world in some way.

I mean as thorny as the issue is in the reading it, the outcome is at least simple enough under the shared symbols thing.

Ok, but what about Adachi...? Welllllllllllllllllll

Adachi is definitely traumatized I think but it's not in the kind of way that's sharp and specific. I'm cribbing a bit off of [https://youtu.be/8qG8Mqe_1v8] with their description of how Adachi reacts to the Scoobies calling him out.

To summarize and or paraphrase, it's not that there's a specific thing that broke Adachi down. It's that he's trapped in a job he hates, or at least without the possibility of improvement. He's shoved in a backwater town when he's a city boy. He feels ignored, he doesn't like the people around him very much, he's got basically no money, he has no significant other, he has to just keep going and existing day in and day out and it's...

God it's so fucking soul killing.

It's not like his childhood was better apparently, in that it basically was a prelude to adult hood but also unlike then, he didn't have the supposed promise of do well in school and get cool shit that was summarily broken.

So what's a guy who's made to feel worthless, made to feel like a nobody, made to feel utterly disenfranchised, and has actual evidence to support some of this (keep in mind the reason he got reassigned did involve him screwing up somehow, though I don't think it's explained what or how) going to react when given the ability to act out with no consequences, or seemingly?

Well, I imagine that you would see them do some fucked up shit really. We've seen people in real life do things just as bad if not worse, and the exact way he wields his trauma is well...sadly understandable to anyone.

Though another interesting shared thing, which I neglected earlier and MAY share into the Gun Imagery is a sense of isolation. Which...Actually. Actually may track. Evokers are used by well...ritualistically killing yourself, which is for all the harm it throws out to everyone connected to you, is also a very solitary act. And in both cases here, the characters are in a very real way killing their true selves in order to deal with the world (In adachis case by presenting a fake version of himself and in Naoto's case by actively rejecting a part of themselves however you want to spin that one)

This does raise a question of the SEES gang having elements of isolation which off hand I want to say yes that's the case across the board, and only by coming together do they win but I also legitimately cannot recall how it plays out beyond the minimal We're The Only Ones Capable of Dealing With This thing which isn't quite the same thing. The ritualized killing yourself still stands so that's still in play really, and i'll keep an eye on it going forward.

I should probably ALSO keep an eye on the uh...Suicide aspects. Even looking back at Naoto and Adachi they have elements of it, although more figurative than literal. Both very much have a life is over thing related to their careers and where they end up when first introduced, so it's not an unreasonable call though the strict actual read of suicide suicide is...Hmmm...

Well I suppose Adachi's chunk of the world is accessed through the noose room if I recall, so that might not be quite as empty a connection, while Naoto's secret lab thing may not be quite as on the nose it does focus on a destruction of self in some way given the way a lot of those secret labs go about doing things in those shows.

That is, there's generally one of two outcomes. Either the Evil Org creates a mindless/corrupted pawn to use whatever their powers/abilities are for the organization (see every monster of the week) OR they create a hero/renegade warrior that uses those very same powers they were imbued with against them....Which suddenly makes me wonder if the the ambiguity of if Naoto's transness vs woman in male spaces thing is intentional in regards to how to read that section. If so that's actually clever as hell because then either way you want to read it the literal what's going on with their shadow (body modification either to become their true self and the rejection of that or to be able to actually be respected for their work and the implied destruction of self that's going on there) it reads as this is bad so...Kudos.

Anyway, off topic, maybe another day.

All this said, this leads to Dojima who SHOULD have a gun and probably does, but...never uses it that I can recall, not once. Doesn't even show up with a gun if memory serves.

It's not that he's not traumatized. He most definitely does have some shit kicking around what with the dead wife, disconnect from his daughter and all that, but he never really...weaponizes it does he? He never turns it on others, never uses it to isolate, none of that. Which is interesting because as a Cop I think we can safely say he SHOULD have a gun of some flavor right? That does seem to be the vibe, and yet he doesn't freak out. The reason why is heartfully straightforward though.

Nanako. He can't exactly revel in his hurt and lash out at folks with it. Like yes, he's not winning parent of the year at the start of the game by a long shot, but frankly emotionally distant and neglectful after your wife died but still trying (failing but trying, critically, the trying) is not the worst spot to be in, no way. And he takes to reorienting things quite well once he get's the additional stability in his life Yu and (at least in part) Adachi.

Which, really, is what also ended up saving the SEES members. Not Yu, but the fact that they managed to form genuine connections with each other that let them get past the hurt and not be taken up and swallowed by it. It's why Adachi ended up going the way he did because he really DIDN'T forge those connections, and because of the whole everything he couldn't really get out of that loop and fix himself up.

I mean Izanami's game basically threw two whole ass people into the deep end of their problems but this ain't about her right now.

So ok, that's the group from 4 and right now this is feeling pretty consistent.

So let's get to the group that has literally every party member carrying with The Phantom Thieves.

So...again, to bring it back, Guns symbolically here are weaponized trauma right? They're using that to strike back against what's threatening you, often by using it against them.

Now, there are variances with the phantom thieves for sure, and the most relevant and DIRECT one is that all of them, every last one, is an outcast of some flavor from the social norms, and this has screwed with them something fierce. Now it's not as apparent or visible in all cases, but I'll get into specifics as we go down the list, but I want to say this at the top because it fundamentally comes down to Because Of this outcast status, this particular form of trauma, they became the Phantom Thieves, and in doing so struck back against the society that hurt them, with the intent to inspire those like them.

Well not Akechi, but his specific issues at least nominally align I guess.

Anyway. I won't go into as much detail here, but I feel it's worth pointing out that their Phantom Thieves Personas are probably the cleanest way to point out how they go about weaponizing their various more personalized traumas to protect themselves and fight back.

Joker: Accused of a crime he didn't commit, sent to a city away from his family and friends, said to be a violent felon...Like it's not exactly brought up in the game in part because he's a silent protag but Joker absolutely had his life ruined. Like full stop, his world fell apart over night, not because he did something wrong but because he tried to do the right thing. And then Kamoshida happened which basically took boyo from being merely fucked over to losing what little he had left (where what he had left was a friend of a friend of his folks taking him in and shoving him in a drafty attic)

And then from said trauma he created the well...Joker Persona. Someone who emphatically is a criminal, the kind of guy who is actually pretty ominous when you consider the knife,gun and dark outfit combo making him look like some kind of assassin. That he helps people is probably a small miracle really.

But by the same token, it's blatantly clear the persona that he pretends at school is not his true self either. He has to hide himself, make himself look small and innocent and as unthreatening as humanly possible. He's not, by any means but...

Morgana: Imagine you wake up one day and you remember maybe your name, a few random bits of information, and nothing else except that you were (probably) a human and now decidedly are not. That's...Rough man. It's just rough to deal with and it's awful, and then you just keep getting hit with that fact over and over and over again. Mona's pretty straightforward, but it tracks that they would make themselves out to be the cool collected sort that they do (even though they botch it nigh constantly). If you can't remember anything about yourself, make yourself out to be the coolest smartest most talented type right?

Ryuji: He literally had an authority figure not only mock his family situation, he straight up broke his leg, killed his dream of running track, ostracized him from his friends and peers, put more pressure on his mom. He was reduced to a thug and his response to that was, apparently, let me be a (diet) delinquent then. It's not like he did anything bad really but he certainly stopped giving any kind of a shit to the world. His attitude got turned up for sure. This got more emphasized with the Actual Skull persona as a phantom thief, where he's far more intimidating, outright hostile and violent (A bat and a shotgun? yee)

Ann: I mean there's the obvious sexual assault, her friend attempting suicide, etc, but i've seen it pointed out that a good chunk of Ann's problems are also based in the fact that she's white in japan, so basically she straight up has to deal with racism too. It's why she's considered the sexy one for example (girls like her are easy you understand) so it's...well. How the game handles (or doesn't) that aside, the persona she ends up developing first off a very blithe sort of vibe to how the world views her (seen in her confidant arc) before ultimately gravitating to having more active control over her image and consciously choosing how the world will view her instead of them making the choice themselves.

Yusuke: Abusive parents (which is damn near a theme with the phantom thieves. Families being broken or Abusive which is hm) who actively stole his work, and he knew about it. It very clearly messes with his art and his relationship to this thing that he loves, and even after knowing how his adoptive dad was abusing him and other students and making a mockery of art...To which he actively throws himself into Art EVEN HARDER than before, as a dedicated fuck you on the subject. Actually straightforward, which is perhaps weird for Yusuke, but hey they can't all require deeper reading.

Makoto: Makoto's deal is a bit more complicated but boils down to She's tired of having all these expectations pushed onto her and dictating the exact kind of person she should be. Always the good girl, always kind and elegant, soft spoken, I mean she knows aikido and is supposed to be good with it. Which is why she turns that around is basically Lord Humongous, albeit less jacked dude in bondage gear and more Badass Violence Biker. Just let it all out and take no shit from anyone ever. Again straightforward enough.

Futaba: Now...Here's a weird one to say because it's...She doesn't have a gun. I mean we could probably make a fair enough statement, if an absolutely buckwild one, that she does not at this point have a trauma. Or at least, not one that is weaponized. Because well...Her issues were very self focused. She thought her mom killed herself because of her, and that almost made her (futaba) kill herself. That's not a great place to be, but it's not like she ever takes her dead mom issues out on the world. She doesn't even really take her extreme social issues out on the world. If anything she pretty much...Has them and kind of deals with them quietly.

I suppose you could say that her weapon of choice is the computer. It's no gun, obviously, but unlike everyone else up til this point she also doesn't really...hide herself. There's no fake persona (in the not summoned beings of myth and story) that she presents to the world. She's decisively genuine about everything, and pretty much the only difference between her and her Oracle persona is neat goggles yeah? Which makes her an interesting pair with Maruki who we'll get to later as another gun not haver.

Haru: Kind of a complicated one, though also kinda straightforward. She's ostracized from her father and finds the abuse that he's laying down on the people who work for them abhorent, which is bad enough, that kind of realization that your life is built on the suffering of others. There's also the uh...It's not strictly this because arranged marriages are very much business affairs more than romance, but the way it's portrayed definitely reads as her dad selling her which is you know. Not...ideal, though her specific reservations there seemed less the arranged marriage (it's business she get's it) but more the dude was an creep and also again the abuse. The family motto being betray anyone to get ahead (paraphrased to hell and back) also suggests some not so great things really, though her bond with her dad did seem to be genuinely strong, which is why her reaction is tada heroine of justice.

Which, I just realized this and I gotta point it out, actually lines up MARVELOUSLY with Morgana and Zorro. Wealthy Individual who see's the crimes and evil deeds of the world and decides to mask up and fight the crime they cannot contest with their unmasked face, warring against the system that enriched them at presumable cost to themselves because it's the right thing to do? Beautiful. Probably should look into that more. But yeah.

Sumire: I mean...I mean she basically straight up says I think I was second best to my sister in everyway and then I got her killed and her reaction to that was Let Me Be My Sister and well...yeah that's exactly how she dealt with her trauma, albeit with a little bit of magic help. And Perhaps most notably, this is almost the most explicit demonstration of Evoker Gun Antics because She Creates a Persona (“Kasumi”) To Protect Herself (alldattrauma.exe) by using that trauma (dead sister) against the world (Literally everyone else) it's...Actually a really clean example I think?

Akechi: Last but not least of the gun havers, Akechi who uh...Outcast because of family reasons (single mom, Dad's a creep) in a way that just...We don't actually ever get the details I don't think, but the way he reacts to it I think makes it clear that his whole life was basically a string of kick this kid while he's down, keep him outside the system, and of course the persona he ends up creating, both of them, end up being one the charming charismatic prince who seeks justice and a bloodthirsty lunatic, neither of which accurately reflect his true self I don't think. Aspects of it sure, but not completely. If pressed, I would say that the Akechi we see in the Third Semester is probably the closest even though he's probably a dream Akechi, being someone who does have a distinct judgement for what is right and wrong but also, critically, can and will shoot you in the face cackling as his plans come together. Rather like Joker actually, which is appropriate given their mirrored trickster roles, and the general shape of their outcomes (both get their smuggery on when things go to plan)

Anyway, the way he reacts to being forced to live an outcast is as mentioned, let me get back into that system, let me be part of it and all that.

And last but not least

Maruki: Now...He doesn't have a gun. It doesn't quite match up with the symbol thing which I think at this point is established enough that it's probably some kind of thing, but what I find interesting is that...he fits MOST of the criteria right? Definitely has a trauma that shaped how he reacted to the world and yet, it's not weaponized right? It doesn't well...evoke a different persona from him. It's not weaponized to protect him and that seems odd right? He ends up with a Palace right?

Sure. But I want to go back to what i'm proposing the Evokers Represent.

Trauma, A Destruction of the Self (Suicide literal or figurative), Isolation, and weaponizing your trauma to protect against the world...And he only actually tracks to the Trauma part of that. He IS hurt for sure, no question. He is fighting back against the world in his own way for sure, what with Azathoth and his mind whammy, and I would say that the nature of it is directing how he's doing things (no more pain for anyone yeah sure)

But where it falls apart, and actually DOES line up with the guns as metaphor for those things mentioned, is that he doesn't really Isolate. He doesn't present a fake self to protect himself. He doesn't destroy an aspect of himself to protect himself. No, he's extremely upfront that “No this is bullshit, it should change, fuck this noise, I'll do what I can with what I can and oh hey godlike power now I can help everyone”

Which cool, except that apparently in the Stay in Maruki's world ending he kinda fades into the background, which suggests the self destruction but no, not even then really. Like I know I made a bit of meta about him obscuring himself and kinda fading away as a person, but I don't think it's strictly meant to be get rid of yourself so much focus on the message and not the messenger. You can throw your mask away. No more pretending. You don't have to hurt anymore. As the song goes.

And it's worth pointing out that, in comparison to literally everyone else on this list, Maruki is unambiguously a healthier person mentally by a long shot. Shady antics with Sumire aside, He genuinely wants to help people, he want's them to be better the right way ideally but if he had the means to do it of course he'd just hot delete those deeply traumatic and life shattering pains that they couldn't overcome. Then he does get that ability. And Then he does do that.

Anyway, the ramblings on long enough, and I kinda feel i'm drifting, but yeah. Think this is another symbol that tracks (I probably wanna check out Persona Q and Q2, but what I know on those does have it break down a bit but they're also not mainline games so I'm not sure how to square that so....)

[rorykillmore]

what do you wanna do w villanelle on denny after her canon update, or what do you think she will do/how will she handle things

[cracks knuckles] NOW i can tackle this.

me realizing i suddenly officially have to put all the thoughts on this i’ve been having on this over the past few months together and that i have no idea where to start: wait.

coming back to denny will be! really difficult for villanelle, actually! not just because of everything she’s been through, but because of the kind of... duality of both worlds. settling on denny once and allowing herself to have Nice Things was one thing, but when you’ve experienced for yourself that it can just be torn away from you at any time? and that you won’t even remember what you lost?

for her, it’s particularly difficult because canon ke is not really an environment where it’s easy for villanelle to form the kind of bonds she made on denny. canon villanelle has not had the kind of development that denny villanelle has had, and being jerked between these two completely different mentalities makes everything i just described THAT much more jarring. post season 3 villanelle is already in the middle of this, like, canonical identity crisis, right, and so for her to be in a world that wants denny villanelle on top of that is just. it’s just going to be a lot.

i mean! she is denny villanelle, but she also isn’t, because she’s had so many distinct experiences to alter her and she can’t just... go back to before. nevermind the fact that it’ll have been nearly a year’s worth of time for her but only a little over a week on denny, which puts a rattling distance between her and everyone else in that capacity, too. 

to sum up what i’m trying to say, it’ll be... scary for her. to accept some of the Good back into her life again, knowing for sure now that one day it’ll all be taken away again. and she also really wants to figure out what kind of person she is or... wants to be, and she’s not necessarily sure the answer to either of those questions is “the villanelle that everyone remembers”, so what does she do? it’s almost another ratchet situation where a balance needs to be struck between “villanelle needs to establish her identity on her own terms” but also “other people aren’t wrong for grieving or feeling sad if she’s Not The Same”, in a way

there’s also the whole family thing, which -- god i’ve been rambling for a while now already, but i really wanted to touch on that. villanelle lost her birth family, only to come back to denny and remember that she has a found family that still loves her!!! which is a really conflicting situation. i think part of her will want to be with them more than Anything, but the other part of her does not know how to cope with this harrowing... hurt of what happened with her blood family. which won’t make sense to her. because in villanelle’s pretty simplistic view of How Emotions Work, shouldn’t she just be able to replace that family with a BETTER family? shouldn’t that fix everything? but no. love can be healing in its own right, but trauma is trauma and you have to face that eventually

i would love for her to eventually be able to talk to someone both about what happened with her mother and what happened with the twelve - the extent of how much and HOW LONG they’ve been manipulating her - but i know that she’ll probably make that difficult for a while so. we’ll see what happens.

but hopefully with all this YAPPING i’ve made it clear why her first instinct for a while will be... to avoid most people and close in on herself while she desperately figures out how to cope. what happens from there and how quickly she warms back up to having people she loves again, i think will depend on how her reunions and other future rps go! it’s one of those things you kinda have to feel out organically.

i AM going to take her post-season finale, i’ve decided, which means that the bad news is: she’ll probably be bitterly avoiding konstantin for a while, too (sorry, konstantin). the good news is that if there’s one thing season 3 has taught her, it’s that she can’t walk away from eve, and eve wouldn’t make the choice to walk away from her, so eve will probably be the one person she actually will try to find and keep in contact with right off the bat. it’s a start!

(oh, maybe natasha too, if only because once she hears natasha is kind of in deep shit for HELPING HER, she’ll feel shitty enough to want to show her face)

as far as what she’ll actually DO in the midst of all this - aside from her mansion-building scheme, which i’ve already discussed in another ask - i’m honestly not 100% sure yet! fresh off her canon update will be an opportune time to throw her at some new characters too, so who knows what kinda stuff she’ll get involved with while she’s Laying Low.

the one thing i’m really indecisive about is, like. what she is going to do PROFESSIONALLY. post season 3 villanelle seems so genuinely tired of killing, but on denny for the past however many months she’s always kinda teetered on the brink of being a fucked up anti-hero, expressly only killing Bad Guys and whatnot. maybe she’ll... play with kind of reinventing that, a bit. like. i don’t know if “vigilante” is the word i want outright (depending on your definition), but some kind of scary criminal presence who is fiercely involved with getting people out of Bad Situations. 

a little while ago i played with the idea of like. a villanelle who goes after groups that recruit and weaponize people (which reminds me! firebrand!!! villanelle is NOT going to want to go back to firebrand but, she’s also not going to want to leave ruby and pyrrha there, so she might. go back for their sakes, but in a very different context, which’ll be really interesting??) and also recently i did a private rp with a friend where she unexpectedly wrote herself into  “i’m going to make compassionate choices out of spite to fuck over all the people who only ever wanted me to be a weapon and a monster” so... idk! we’ll see what happens to her on denny!

also: i haven’t decided yet if she’d go back to calling herself oksana. for right now i think it’ll stay something she only wants eve to call her while she uses Villanelle as a kind of barrier against. everything and everyone else, but who knows. i’ve always said that kind of development from her would make me SOB

[winesympathy-blog]

Wine & Sympathy - Episode 3: Back At It Again [Transcript]

Show Notes:

We sit down with actress and make-up artist, Jennifer Holt, who discusses getting back into the acting game after taking some time off. We talk about what it's like to raise a child actor, being back in the audition seat, and how the corona virus has been affecting her daily life.

Co-host: Asabi Goodman

Co-host: Vanessa "Ness" Bristow

Guest: Jennifer Holt

Social Media & Website Links

Facebook: www.facebook.com/winesympathy

Instagram: www.instagram.com/winesympathy

Twitter: www.twitter.com/sympathywine

Website: www.winesympathy.page

Guest Links

Website: www.facebook.com/jennifer.jbholt

Instagram: www.instagram.com/jennifer_holt

[START]

AG  

And hello!

VB

Hi everybody, this is Vanessa.

AG

And this is Asabi and together we are...

BOTH  

Wine and Sympathy!

VB  

Well today we actually have one of our famous special guests that we keep talking about.

AG

Yes, such a treat, such a treat and I'm excited to get to know this person.

VB

I know.

AG

Yes.

VB

Okay, I'll do a little bit of an intro. So today our special guest via phone, due to COVID-19, is Miss Jennifer Holt.

AG

Woohoo!

VB  

Jennifer is known for her roles in Flipper, Pacific Drive, Beverly Hills Family Robinson, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and is currently in pre-production for the new indie production, The Witches Knight, which is so cool.

AG

It looks cool.

VB

I like witches!

AG  

Yes, and it's not like NIGHT, it's KNIGHT like a Knight.

VB  

Knight!

AG

Yes. As in swashbuckling. Ha ha ha!

VB  

She's also...a little bit of history about Jen...she was in the running to be Miss Saigon for Andrew Lloyd Webber when he first brought Miss Saigon to Australia. Now that's kind of how we know each other from our musical theatre history. She's also a working hair & makeup artist in many productions, and is the mother of the fabulous teen actor, PJ Holt. So, recent changes, Jen, you've decided to jump back in front of the camera. Can you tell us why?

JH  

Why? Well, actually my son has been pushing me to go back in front of the camera. He actually found old videos of my musical theatre time. You know, the old VHS?

BOTH

YES!?

VB

I am currently doing that, VHS to DVDs lately.

AG  

She has some shocking stuff.

JH

Well, he found a couple of them when he was younger, and he's been asking me why don't I do it since he does it? And my old agent, Peter Glover, who is a producer now. His daughter is actually one of the producers of "Tidelands" and what was the other one? Oh my gosh.

AG  

The Witches Knight?

JH

Oh, no, no. She's a producer for ABC. Oh, sure. Harrow. Yes, she is part of Hoodlum.

AG

Harrow? I've been on that show. Yes, Hoodlum. I know them very well

VB  

And they just convinced you to jump back in front...

JH

Yes. Yeah. So she and Peter are father and daughter, and they used to be my agents.

AG  

Okay.

JH  

And Peter Glover actually used to say, "get your butt into gear, Jen, and get back in front of the camera."

AG  

That’s fantastic!

VB  

That's good, too, because you are a woman of the same age as us.

AG

Yes.

VB  

And that's one of the things about this podcast that we're talking about. What it is like to be a woman in her 40s.

AG

Prime! Just say it, a woman in her 40s.

BOTH  

[Laughter] The new 20s!

VB  

Okay so double 20s! What's it like to be in the performing arts? As you? How do you feel going back into it now?

JH  

Okay, it's been a while since... Well, it hasn’t been a while. But to start going back there and putting myself out and auditioning. It's kind of daunting. Yeah?

BOTH

Yeah.

JH

Because the fact that I think to myself, “Oh my god, I'm old.”

AG  

You're not old, but we know how you feel.

VB  

You're experienced, NOT old!

JH

Yeah but do you know what I mean? Yeah. What can I...What roles can I play? And sometimes I don't get to play the role that I like to play anymore. Does that make sense?

AG  

Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

JH

Yeah. And then sometimes, though, there is one that I would like to play, ones that I'd like to play a certain age, our age group, and then sometimes they say, "No. You don't look old enough to play that part.” But I am that old.

AG  

Yeah, that's right. We get that.

VB

Because we don't look our age. It’s super weird.

AG  

Well, I mean, I think it's that the "powers that be" have this idea of what a woman in their 40s looks like. And you know, when women in their actual 40s rock up. They're like "Oh, you're not exactly what we had in mind. We need somebody who looks a little bit... "

BOTH  

Older!

VB  

Well, they should open it and make it women in their 50s instead of women in their 40s.

AG

Exactly.

VB

I think it's marketing's fault or advertising.

AG  

Who knows? I think people just see someone on television and they go, “Oh, that person must be in their 40s,” because...Let's be honest, when you were in your 20s what did you think a 40 year old looked like?

VB

Old.

AG

Yeah, exactly. [Laugh]

VB  

And wrinkly. Hey, Jennifer. Tell me about The Witches Knight.

JH  

Oh, at the moment I can't really say anything.

AG  

NDA [Non Disclosure Agreement].

VB  

Well that was a little bit of a "boom boom"....

AG  

Now Jennifer, this is Asabi here, and I know we haven't met, but you know I did a little bit of IMDb stalking on you. And it turns out that we worked on the same project together - Project One Shot - back in the day. Remember that? I played one of the Real Housewives of Sanctuary Cove.

JH

Oh yes, you guys would have been at that table in the restaurant. Yes. The really stuck up housewives!

AG  

Yes, that's right. And they gave us free food and free champagne. It was really nice.

VB  

It sounds like a great gig!

JH

You guys got the best spot, just so you know; no one else got to eat, in the whole production!

AG

They put tonnes of food in front of us all day long. And it was just like little finger foods. But still, it was nice. And they were like "Eat, eat it. We made it just for you!" So it was really good.

JH

Well then we would've met then, for sure.

AG  

Yeah, definitely.

JH

I was actually in that section.

AG  

Oh, okay. Then, yes. So we would have met each other.

VB

That's what's so crazy about Brisbane, or Queensland, but Brisbane specifically. We all kind of know each other. It's like, you know, the 12 degrees or seven degrees of Kevin Bacon. The seven degrees of BrisVegas.

AG  

Yeah, that's right. We should make that a game.

VB

We should make that a thing?

AG

We Should.

VB

Well, we’ll figure it out, and we'll get back to you.

AG

With each guest, we’re like, “so how are we connected?”

VB  

Now, Jennifer, tell me as a female artist, how do you do everything that you do? You're a mom, you obviously have a job. You're obviously pushing your career and doing everything that we do to survive. How do you do it? How do you cope?

JH  

How do I cope? Good question. Do you want me to lie a little bit? I'm kidding. Seriously? Um, it's a really good question. I just do, I focus on well, most of my focus is helping my son cause he gets more auditions than I do, due to his age, and his look, he is better looking than me.

AG

Never.

JH

We do have the same agent.

AG  

Oh, well see...

VB

That’s cute.

JH  

So... but he is...but coping with everything, it's... Ohhh, it's a lot of reorganizing beforehand. Does that make sense? I have to think of everything that needs to be done at least a day, a week ahead.

VB

It's all about time planning, isn't it?

JH  

Does that make sense? It's, it's, and it’s not fun.

AG  

No, I can only imagine your calendar must be crazy. Just completely chock full of appointments here and there for you and your son.

JH

Yes, it's basically getting up in the morning. Okay, remind myself what's on my agenda. So I have to prepare everything. If something like, well, my son’s gotta go to school, so I got to take him to school and do everything else. I mean, he's only 13, he should go to, you know, make his own lunch. However, I'm a bit pedantic about what he eats. So, I wake up early in the morning and I make and cook his breakfast. I cook all his lunches so he goes to school with proper food, and then I come back home after dropping him off and I go into the computer and I'm on the phone.

VB  

And you are doing stuff like our podcast! In your history of everything that you've done, which everyone knows about and we can also check you out you've got a Facebook page don't you? What’s...what's your link to that?

JH  

Oh it's my name is Jennifer Holt, oh my gosh what is my Facebook page?

AG  

That's okay we don't promote ourselves well either. That's all good. We will we will definitely put a link to your Facebook and your socials.

VB  

[Laughter] What's your best experience in your career to date? What would, in your mind, is like, the first thing that comes to your mind as being like the best experience so far?

JH  

Best experience? Ah, just one?

VB  

Okay, give us a couple.

AG  

Give us your top ten!

JH  

I mean, to me, working with amazing other talents is, I think...I can't really say I liked working on Dr Jekyll & Hyde over, over Flipper or anything like that. I just...I don't know. I just love just working with creative people. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. It's like my son the other day he received a trophy from Texas for his little film that he wrote. I was more excited than he was. And I said, “Oh My God, honey you won!” And he goes "Oh, thanks Mom". So I said “okay great, don't jump out of your skin” stop...

AG  

I think he realizes that it's from Texas. [Laughter] Not to degrade any of our Texas listeners, if we have any but...I'm from Oklahoma. So you know... [Laughter]

JH

You know, I said to him, aren't you happy? He says, "But Mummy, I don't actually do it for the trophy. I like the trophy, but I do it because I really love what I do."  That's the same thing; I think that's the feeling that I have as well. I enjoy being on set. It's my happy place. It's my son's happy place. We actually get on really well when we're both on set. Funnily enough.

AG  

Have you ever done anything together?

JH  

Oh, there was a Commonwealth Games commercial. I was...They wanted me to drive him...pretending I'm driving him to his swimming training. That was one. Oh! He's actually in The Witches Knight, as well.

VB  

Oh, fantastic. The one that we can't talk about. Yeah.

JH

Yeah, well, he got cast before I did.

AG  

And see there is already a picture for it up on IMDb.

JH  

Oh. Did you see the picture?

AG

I did, yeah.

JH  

Which one? Of me looking really glamorous?

AG

Let me see. I’ll have to look at it again.

JH

Oh the actual or the mock up poster?

AG

Yeah, I think it’s the mock poster, which is very cool. Very, very cool.

VB  

It is cool. Now obviously being part of this crazy BrisVegas community that we're in, how do you find it for casting? You said before that your son got more auditions than you did.

JH

Okay, with PJ he doesn't get a lot of Australian auditions. He gets some more of American, because he has an agent in Australia, as well as LA, and all his auditions are all American/Canadian based auditions.

AG  

And why do you think that is?

JH

Because he doesn't have an Aussie accent.

AG  

Right. See? And I think that's a very important insight for Australia. Because I suffer from the same thing. I don't have an Australian accent either.

JH

Yeah. He has your accent.

AG

Yeah, yeah. And I get a lot of auditions for American based shows that are filming here, but rarely do I get auditions for the Australian shows that are here. Or I just get cast as an extra. And I love...I love being on set as you said, you know, there's just something about being around creative people...

VB

But, you’re more than just an extra.

AG

Exactly. And what sucks is that they see me and they're like, "Oh! Let's put the camera on her." So then I get seen...

JH  

And then you open your mouth!

AG  

That's right! I get seen in that one little thing and then I can't get cast as anything else because, you know, I've played plain-clothes detective on Harrow for the last three seasons, and I'm like, “Give me one line. I can say no. I can say no. I can say it like an Australian. I could say NO [in Australian accent].” And there you go.

VB  

That was so "Aussie."

JH

That was a bit Aussie. It was a bit scary!

VB  

You have a bit of an accent too, Jennifer.

JH

Accents. I do. I can have her accent as well.

AG  

A little bit. Yeah, not bad. Not bad at all.

JH  

Now with a Southern accent anybody can do a Southern accent...

AG

I agree with that girl, anybody can do a Southern accent. It's so simple.

VB

We will leave that one over there...

JH

But yeah, so with auditions and stuff even with myself because Australia - we're talking 20 years ago, yeah. More than 20 years ago - it wasn't as multicultural or multi-ethnic when it comes to television or film. Vanessa, you would agree to this, unless it was musical theatre because no one really sees you up close.

AG

Yeah, that's right and they could put paint on your face to make you look white.

JH  

But for Films & TV, as you may have seen on my IMDb, all my stuff is all American as well, because I played Mexican.

AG  

Oh, a hot mess. A hot Mexican mess. So, what do you feel the state of Australian Film & TV productions are now? Do you feel that they are becoming more diverse?

JH

Yes, I think so. They're getting there. They are getting there but it's extremely slow. It took over 20 years.

AG  

Yeah. And I think it's you know, I get...this might make me sound racist, I don't know. But sometimes I get turned off when all I see is just white people on a show and I'm like, “Oh, another one. Another one,” because I look around Australia and Australia is a very diverse place. You know, you've got people from all over the world here in Australia. And it's amazing and gorgeous and beautiful and the relationships that we all have because of the diversity and then you go on to television and you just see this really...

VB  

Whitewash

AG  

I'm not gonna say whitewash...

VB  

But I can ‘cause I am white, its one dimensional bullshit.

AG  

Yeah. It's just kind of like the same stories over and over, and, you know, there's no diverse perspective that you're getting from Australian Film & TV. I'm saddened that your son doesn't get more rolls because they're over 10,000 Americans that live here. I don't know how many Canadians live here. But you know, our accents aren't that far apart from each other.

JH  

They're very similar until they start saying "going out."

AG  

Yeah, that's right. There are places in America if you get along the border, that American/ Canadian border where they all have the same accent. America is just as diverse in accents as the UK. Well, maybe not as much as the UK. The UK is crazy. But America is just as diverse in its accents. And just because, you know, we don't all sound exactly the same coming from America. And I think there's a tonne of us here. There's a tonne of diversity here in Australia, and I feel that it needs to be reflected in our Film & TV.

VB  

I agree. Hey, Jennifer, what's your favourite wine?

JH  

Church Block.

VB

Church Block? Nice. Red or white?

JH

Red. I'm actually on my alcohol fasting. I do it every year.

AG

Oh! Tell us about that.

JH

Every year, I don't touch alcohol for six months.

AG  

Six months?

VB

Well, we're not hanging out until you are done.

AG  

That's not...no...wait a minute. Okay. Wait, wait, wait. So, you spend half a year fasting? That's half a year.

VB

That's a long time [general mumbles and laughter]. Why do you do that?

JH  

Just to get my body back and rejuvenate.

AG  

Okay, how much do you drink in the other six months?

JH

[Laughter] That's a different podcast.

AG  

[Laughter] Well this is Wine & Sympathy.

VB  

I'm sympathizing with you. What are you three months in? What, do you start on New Year's and then just go through to June or July?

JH

Well actually, no. I was supposed to start after New Year's, but at the time I was still overseas stuck in a hotel. So what else can you do in a hotel room?

AG

MINIBAR!

JH  

And then you get to the sky lounge. I started, actually...I came home in January. So once I finished my bottle of gin that I brought back, I thought okay, that's it. Six months it is. So I've got until July.

AG  

Oh, that's a long time.

VB  

So, I'll come over in July and we'll have...you can make your favourite dish...

AG  

Or we’ll have you over to do another podcast.

VB

She is a really good cook.

JH  

Yeah. While drunk!

VB  

I will drink while you cook for me, that sounds like a plan.

AG  

I love how Ness just invites herself over, “And you will do the cooking. Thank you.” [Laughter]

VB  

I love to cook, she knows that.

AG  

That's awesome. Well, our podcast equipment is mobile so it can go anywhere.

VB  

So you just invited yourself? [Laughter]

BOTH  

[Laughter] I sure did. Oh, well, I invited Jen to do another podcast.

JH  

End of July, hopefully we'll be allowed to have gatherings then.

VB  

Gosh, how are you coping during this crazy COVID-19 time?

JH  

I'm okay, um, it gives me time. I've cleaned the house several times over. Every morning, I don't know why, I just, every morning, I disinfect every door handle. (mumbles of agreement) I catch myself and what are you doing? There's no one else here, you haven’t left the house.

AG  

Oh but it's good. You never know, germs can just, you know, it's like osmosis or something...

JH  

We've been...we've been okay. We've been okay. We’ve just been laying low. PJ is...I'm helping PJ write his script. A script idea that he has, because he wants to film it. So I said, “Okay, well let's just...we've got plenty of time to write it.”

VB  

Got any roles for two 40 year old women? One called Asabi. One called Ness.

AG  

Hey? [Laughter] Write us in. Write us in as 30 somethings. [Laughter]

JH  

Ha ha - early 30s, thank you, and all the 40s women come. So, anyway, we've been doing that and I’ve been gardening. I've been cooking a lot. Honestly, if I was drinking and cooking the way I've been, I need a liposuction at the end of this covid!

AG  

Oh my god! What’s your favourite...What’s your favourite thing to cook?

JH  

Japanese.

AG  

Japanese food. I love Japanese food. Chawanmushi is probably my favourite Japanese dish. Do you know that dish?

JH

No.

AG

It’s like an egg custard and it has a little bit of vegetables in it.

JH  

It’s a dessert?

AG  

No. It’s not a dessert.

VB  

It’s weird.

AG  

What?

VB

You said egg custard.

AG

Yeah. It's delicious. It's actually very savoury. It's very savoury. And it has a little roasted chestnut in the middle. It's kind of like hidden in the middle. Yeah, it's my favourite, favourite Japanese dish. And yeah, it's great. You can't get it outside of Japan.

JH  

We can't have any nuts in the house.

VB

Nut allergies?

AG

Oh no, that's sad.

JH  

Full on nut allergies.

VB  

Yeah, that's hectic. Do you have an epi pen, because I love hitting people with needles. That's another podcast.

AG  

That is a very different podcast. [Laughter]

JH

Yeah. We have an epi pen in every room, so we're good. We've got that covered.

VB

Oh that’s good. Nice, nice. Alright, so we're gonna finish up here. But I'm going to have a beautiful photo of you on our Facebook page.

AG

Yes.

VB

...and some links to your Insta and your Facebook. And we're going to check in again in a couple of months’ time, actually in six months when you're cooking for us, because I wanna know, I mean, you're only just stepping back into the spotlight, so to speak. I want to know how you go. This is really fascinating for me, and obviously, I love you. And I just think it's really important that, as females, that we stay connected, and we lift each other up and support one another. And I do support you 100%.

AG  

Yeah. Thank you so much for having a chat with us. Yeah, and we definitely look forward to seeing all that you have coming up.

JH  

Thank you. Thanks for having me, guys. That was fun.

VB

It was improv!

AG  

But we are actors, that's right. Improv. Yeah. [Laughter]

JH  

What happened to method acting?

AG  

Oh, well, you know. [Laughter] I think we're always method acting.

VB  

Yeah, I think that went away when we had a glass of wine!

AG  

I think we become method actors.

VB

Alright. Thanks very much to our wine sponsors this evening. Me.

ALL

[Laugh]

VB

Thanks a lot to Jennifer Holt for being part of Wine & Sympathy.

AG  

Thanks, Jennifer.

VB  

Bye bye!

[END]

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