#I wonder if it was the same with Miquella

[irrepressible-miracle]

Maybe Miquella's curse isn't eternal nascency, maybe his curse is that he'd be slower than everyone else, that he wouldn't have enough time

[goji-pilled]

like i said i choose to believe they had a good relationship (i also dont know how that fancy pants english works)

[mac-tirs]

the usage of different types of english in elden ring

most human/tarnished NPCs we meet, like rogier, ansbach, and nepheli, use late modern english:

"a sorcerer, as you might have guessed. i'm looking for a little something, here in the castle. when i'm not hotfooting it from the troops, that is." - rogier, first meeting "general radahn. a pleasure to see you, after all this time. but those remains do not belong to you." - ansbach, upon summon for PCR

but older demigods like messmer, ranni, and morgott use early modern english:

"thou'rt tarnished, it seemeth. mother, wouldst thou truly lordship sanction, in one so bereft of light? yet… my purpose standeth unchanged." - messmer, pre-battle cutscene "thou needst not indulge them unduly, but they too wish to appraise thy worth. it hath been a passing long time since a newcomer entered my service, after all." - ranni, after agreeing to serve her

then there are the younger demigods, like miquella, malenia, and potentially melina, who use a later variant of modern english, similar to the tarnished NPCs we speak to:

"if we honour our part of the vow, promise me you'll be my consort. i'll make the world a gentler place." - miquella, post-PCR cutscene "the scarlet bloom flowers once more. you will witness true horror. now, rot!" - malenia, phase 2 transition cutscene

finally, the hornsent NPCs like the hornsent, hornsent grandam, and the hornsent spirits such as the one outside the whipping hut, who use late middle english similar to the english found in shakespeare's sonnets:

"fie, another? ... then, as that woman would surely say, we are in our purposes well aligned. but understand. your kind are not forgiven. the erdtree is my people's enemy. by marika long betray'd, set aflame." - hornsent, first meeting "all your resentment lingers yet... the raw stuff from which i shall surely forge a curse. upon the dastard messmer's head. upon marika's children each and all." - scorched ruins hornsent spirit

i find it interesting how different the usage of english is in the game, and i feel that it can be a hint on how to properly date an individual's occupation in the lands between/land of shadow. the hornsent, being a people much older than many in the lands between, use the most archaic version of english, while the tarnished and younger demigods use a form of english more closely related to our own in the current period. older demigods (and marika herself, as heard from melina's recounts of marika's spoken echoes) use a form of english more closely related to the period of transition from middle english to early modern english.

additionally, another interesting thing to me: mohg is almost certainly nearly the same age as morgott (since they're referred to as twins), yet he speaks a little differently compared to morgott:

"tarnished, thou'rt but a fool." - morgott, post-battle dialogue "dearest miquella. you must abide alone a while." - mohg, pre-battle cutscene

this makes me wonder if it's possible that, assuming that miquella's verbiage is indicative of his younger age in comparison to the older demigods (aka the demigods born before the marika/radagon union), miquella's charm altered mohg's perception enough to also alter his manner of speaking and carrying himself in some way. if his pursuit of finery (dressing in embroidered robes and handling himself with poise, juxtaposing his bestial growls and strength) was mainly done in an effort to fit into miquella's ideal of a consort. of course, mohg could just be as vain as he seems to be all on his own accord, but i find that it's interesting to entertain the idea that even his current state of being was due to miquella's charm.

i'd love to hear what others think about this. i'm not very learned when it comes to english (it's not really my first language), but i find this all very cool to think about.

[galaxirin]

I just realised the horror of Miquella’s curse because yeah, Malenia’s was gradual decay, her own body betraying her.

But for Miquella, he had to figure out his curse by merely waiting. His mind growing older but his body never gaining height or muscle. His face remaining plump and soft while Malenia’s slowly but surely becomes angular and sharp. Malenia saw promise even with the curse too with the blind swordsman but with Miquella,

He was forced to realise he was being left behind.

Thinking about the stages of grief realising he can’t age either, the denial that maybe he’s just a late bloomer or maybe tomorrow he’ll finally get taller. The anger of realising that he probably will have to watch Malenia rot away while he. Stays. The. Same.

No wonder he’s known as the most fearsome Empyrean, that anger is well deserved.

[feukt-42]

The most interesting part with Leda for me, is that for all of the murder she does, she doesnt seem to enjoy it in any way. When she fights Ansbach, the Hornsent, Thiollier or you, she always seems to express some form of regret at having to kill you. Of course, she doesnt actually have to kill anyone, she is just very quick to use murder as a solution, but it doesnt seem to stem from a desire to hurt others, it feels like she genuinely believes this is the only way forward.

She says she is mistrustful of others, and while that convo is kinda funny, it really does feel like she has lost all trust in mankind. In the dialogue about Hornsent's crusade, while most people remember the "they were never saints" part, I mostly remember "Man is by nature a creature of conquest". It really does speak to how she views people, and it seems like she believes Miquella's forced age of compassion is the only way to change things for the better, that without his control, everyone would just constantly be at each other's throats. It almost makes me wonder about the needle kights. Did she kill them for the same reason ? Were they actually disloyal to Miquella ? Was there already infighting before she came along ? Whatever the case, Leda is now utterly convinced of Miquella's cause, and is ready to do anything to bring him to power.

It's a very interesting dynamic with Miquella, who is always portrayed as a very hopeful figure, always trying to create a kind and compassionate world, while Leda is a very pessimistic one. She seems to almost embody his "through whatever means necessary" philosophy. Had Miquella succeeded, i could almost see her taking on a role similar to the one Messmer took for Marika, an enforcer, someone who does the dirty jobs so their god can keep their hands clean. Hell, she's almost started to do it by herself, Miquella wouldn't even need to ask her.

[tlgtw]

Bits and pieces of the still incredibly written backstory of Elden Ring continue to poke out from the dogwater, as it were.

St. Trina, as we learn, was a specific aspect of Miquella that was made separate: In Miquella's words, St Trina was the embodiment of his 'love.' And when he abandoned St Trina, he abandoned that aspect of himself that made her.

This newly introduced example reveals to us what the nature of Radagon's exactly was, in turn.

Radagon, the 'other half' of Marika in the exact same way that St Trina had been for Miquella, we learn here, had *himself* been a specific singular aspect of Marika's emotions or feelings.

With St Trina having been made out of Miquella's 'love.'

You wonder, too, what Radagon should have been made from.

What aspect of herself did Marika separate into her second person, as called by her the "Loyal Dog of the Golden Order"? We know Radagon was created prior to the creation of the Golden Order itself, since he was involved in the invasion of Liurnia.

So at the same time as Marika was married to Godfrey, begetting Godwyn and Mogh and Morgott. Radagon was married to Renalla, begetting Rykard and Radahn and raising the potential successor of Marika--the Empyrean Ranni. He was given a massive amount of responsibility, the seeming crux of the Liurnian-Leyndell alliance that ended the Liurnian Wars that Marika's empire was losing, and he by every account was completely dedicated and successful; even weakening the strength of the Carian royal family by reducing their practicing of astrology.

All yet, when push came to shove: After Godwyn was assassinated and Marika sought to destroy the Elden Ring. It was Radagon who dropped everything he had and stepped in to stop her.

"Proudly" as his Golden Order Greatsword says,

Radagon divorced his first wife, married his 'original self,' begettedthe Twin Prodigies Miquella and Malenia as two more potential successors to Queen Marika, set up the brutal inquisition and censorship of the Age of Radagon headed by his own son Rykard, and was even involved with the very the development of Golden Order fundamentalism!

Radagon did so much fucking stuff! He was so damn proactive! So what exactly must he have been!?

That Marika initially separated from herself? And who went on to try and stop her very own plans when they turned against the wishes of the Greater Will??

This conflicting 'half' of her original person! That nonetheless was all this strongly willed on his own!?

What part of Marika COULD Radagon have originally been!?!?!?

And it's awesome. It's really really well-designed writing.

Frankly, even, it's genius. It's not anything revolutionary in terms of narrative devices or anything like that, but it's really elegant. It's really meaningful and concise, and it's really cool!!!

A lot of Elden Ring's base game is, or now maybe--was. (It having been the basis of my entire show on YouTube.)

But the actual story, instead of solely the backstory, of the DLC, unfortunately, is not!

You ever seen a boss item whose entire description was literally entirely the game just fucking QUOTING ITSELF?

Hyetta at Frenzied Flame Proscription: "Become their lord. Take their torment, despair. Their affliction. Every sin, every curse. And melt it all away. As the Lord of Chaos."

Ghost outside Church of Inhibition in Liurnia: "Ahh, Lord Vyke, it seems that you were no lord, after all."

Midras's Flame of Frenzy, from killing Midras, Lord of Frenzied Flame:

Or! Better yet, ANOTHER boss spell, whose entire description is dedicated to literally just acknowledging its fucking colour!!

Land of Shadows, from killing the Scadutree Avatar:

I definitely sure wish I still hadn't!!

In fact, I don't think the level of vacuousness from Shadow of the Erdtree's descriptions has ever been seen before!

Not even in Dark Souls 3!!

AUGH

[dragon-communion]

Alright I have this theory about Miquella, Malenia and Trina that I need to float out there.

When we find her, Malenia specifically states that she was dreaming. She has in fact been dreaming.

I dreamt for so long. My flesh was dull gold... and my blood, rotted. Corpse after corpse, left in my wake as I awaited his return. ... Heed my words. I am Malenia. Blade of Miquella. And I have never known defeat.

It's hard to say whether or not Malenia was in communication with Miquella via dreams. I do think there's some meat to the theory that she split herself, however, very much the way Miquella and Marika did.

Malenia budded off daughters in Aeonia, and I think that in the same way Trina represents Miquella's love and Radagon might be Marika's sense of loyalty, Millicent could literally be Malenia's dignity.

There is something I must return to Malenia. The will that was once her own. The dignity, the sense of self, that allowed her to resist the call of the scarlet rot. The pride she abandoned, to meet Radahn's measure.

-Millicent

Considering how relatively willingly Malenia bloomed for us, I have to wonder if she did indeed literally lose her restraint.

And she had so many splits.

By the time we get to her, Malenia has rotted the entire Haligtree and she seems to be a hollow shell of herself, repeating who she is and what she stands for like a mantra until we make her desperate. She is frozen in time as that woman who bloomed in Caelid, I think, just a fragment made of raw determination to win at any cost.

It's also notable that the Scarlet Rot isn't just painful, it might actively cause nightmares.

Everything is as you said. Since inserting the needle, the scarlet rot has ceased to writhe. Even the nightmares have abated...

-Millicent

Malenia might've been experiencing Rot-induced nightmares for a few hundred years until we got to her.

Miquella's textual motivation for moving proverbial mountains all throughout his life was curing his sister. While he struggled to uproot it at the source, they did find several stopgap treatments: wearing Miquella's unalloyed gold, which conferred a limited amount of his own immunity onto the bearer; and the Sword Saint's flowing water techniques.

I think Trina, as Miquella's love and an aspect of his own affinity for forgetfulness/oblivion, might've become the saint of sleep specifically out of Miquella's urge to soothe his sister's unquiet dreams. She eventually expanded and gained more autonomy, moving on to the Cleanrot Knights, then the merchants and albinaurics. It's hard to say when the albinaurics were brought to her attention, but I think Miquella had a lot of dealings with Ranni, Rykard, and maybe even Iji.

(Side note: could the mirrorhelm have made Iji immune to Miquella's charm?)

Torrent's whistle in particular is delicate goldwork that I think is heavily implied to be Miquella's handiwork. Of the smiths and engineers in-game, I think Miquella's skill at making outright automail had to take at least some inspiration from Rykard's machinery, and a lot of the weapons associated with the Haligtree take inspiration from Carian weaponry. The Miquellan Knight's sword is basically a Carian sword with the glintstone switched out for Haligtree bloodstone amber. Why is that?

(Additional side note: I think Loretta might've been Radahn's teacher in the art of horsemanship and archery, considering she's the only other Carian character heavily associated with horses and archery. It'd provide a good reason for why her albinauric identity was a huge secret. And, once Radahn left for Sellia to learn gravity magic/get a new mentor, that gave her the free time she would need to champion the albinaurics and investigate the Haligtree.)

Either way, Trina would have had front row seats to the treatment of the albinaurics as servants and worse, and there's a chance that that was when she had her first encounter with the Flame of Frenzy.

Miquella's approach to excising gods was scientific, but I think Trina attacked the problem from an ideological angle. It's actually a pretty good idea, since the gods in Elden Ring seem to be ideologies made physical. Frenzy is despair- so those afflicted with Frenzy must be given hope, and they were given a "holy land" in the form of the Haligtree. And we can in fact still find their hope in the Apostate Derelict, Philia's promise of being able to birth albinaurics, in very close proximity to the largest amount of Trina's Lilies in the game.

Tl;dr: I think Trina is a saint of sleep specifically because Malenia was afflicted by Rot-nightmares, and Miquella wanted so badly to help her that he budded off an aspect of himself that could.

[mytypeismohg]

Playing Elden Ring again and starting thinking of some things about Trina, also about Millicent and Midra evolving/growing stronger due to pain.

"Silver sword of St. Trina, now stained the color of velvet. Inflicts eternal sleep. When St. Trina was abandoned, the faint, light-purple mists coalesced into an intoxicating deep-purple cloud."

Stained velvet? Deep Purple. Eternal sleep.

"A young shoot, heavy with velvety purple nectar. Material used for crafting items. Exceedingly rare to find. Said to burgeon forth where the nectar-like blood of abandoned Trina pooled."

Velvet and deep purple is Trina's blood.

Crosses site of graces.

Cerulean Coast Cross -“I abandon here my doubt and vacillation”

Vacillation: the inability to decide between different opinions or actions; indecision.

You can find the purple blood blossoms here too. Did Miquella abandon his doubt of abandoning Trina, or was Trina the embodiment of the doubt? Mostly, did Miquella began assaulting/mutilating Trina here? Is this how her blood pooled here?

Fissure Cross -“I abandon here my love”

I've seen some interpret this as calling Trina "my love" as a term of endearment, which could be also true, however Miquella is divesting himself of parts of his own being. Physical and emotional. Of course Trinas blood pools in various places inside the Fissure, as well as being stained on her face. Clearly Trina had a lower half in the trailer, so what happened?

So on sleep. Trina's sleep spell was not the same in the base game as the velvet eternal sleep in the DLC. The sword outright states this "deep purple mist" was created by her abandonment. Her gentle spell of lulling sleep is now an intoxicating mist which can be dangerous to some. More powerful and effective, but no longer harmless (mostly).

This is what Gowry says about Millicent once you have the option to side with her or not:

"If you happen to be present for the girl's fight with her sisters, I ask that you side with the sisters and kill Millicent. It must be done by your hand; no other. Millicent trusts you, rather deeply in fact. Sever that trust. Nurtured by betrayal, her bud will flower most vividly. When Malenia ascends to godhood, Millicent too shall be reborn. As a scarlet valkyrie."

Midra. Everyone remembers the "Endure". Endure the pain to ascend to power, perhaps? To evolve into something far more powerful and dangerous due to pain?

Trina has suffered both of these things. Physical pain and abandonment. I believe this is why her blood being spilled has changed her power so drastically. Yet her loving nature remains unchanged. I wonder if Trina was left to suffer could she have become something much worse, like Godwyn? Or is she holding it back? Enduring, but for everyone else's sake instead?

[prismatic-starstuff]

wait idk if anyone ever asked you but since you don't seem to have any issues with miquella, what are your general headcanons for him?? 👉🏾👈🏾 i'm kinda curious (including the reader/tarnished or not, i don't mind!!!)

Oooooo, I posted some general Miquella headcanons but I do have headcanons specifically about how he'd be with the Tarnished! :3

Post-Heart Stolen Headcanons:

After the battle - after having their body held tight by Radahn and Miquella's gentle voice murmuring such lovely words in their ear - the Tarnished no longer thinks of fighting them... or the people at Enir-ilim... or anyone.

Miquella is attentive. Surprisingly so. He'll often seek the Tarnished out seemingly just to be near them; to walk with them, to tell them stories of the old world and all the horrors he doesn't want repeated, to speak of the future he longs for.

The Tarnished is invited, even encouraged, to stay close to Miquella. They learn a lot about him in these times; how almost unnervingly serene he is no matter what he's discussing, how he brightens when talking about his family or his intended future, how he idly braids Radahn's hair when he has nothing else to do with his three hands.

Once enough time has passed, the time comes to depart Enir-ilim and return to the Lands Between, to the Haligtree. ...And it's then that the Tarnished sees that Miquella never gave up all his ability to care; because the sight of his rotted tree brings tears streaming down his face.

Despite his initial eagerness to return, he doesn't talk to the Tarnished, Radahn, or any of his people for approximately two days after; the first day is spent alone in tears, the second day is spent making a needle infused with his godly power in hopes of healing the Haligtree's rot.

The Tarnished assists, bringing gold items to be melted for this purpose, reassuring the god that the tree will be able to flourish again. And for their assistance, Miquella is genuinely grateful; offering them a needle of their own, should they ever need protection against other forces.

One time, after sitting together with the god, the Tarnished realises that there's a braid in their hair that hadn't been there before. This begins to become a routine thing; Miquella takes to braiding their hair just as he does with Radahn's.

Miquella often brings things to the Tarnished; flowers to place in their hair, and things that they enjoy. ...Whether this kindness is borne of gratitude or it's just his personality, or whether it's all just a way to keep them on his side, is debated by many.

As they watch how Miquella listens to the concerns of the denizens of the Haligtree, how he cares even if he cannot love, how they show no signs of bewitchment yet seem to adore him all the same... the Tarnished begins to wonder if perhaps they'd thought too harshly of Miquella at first. (...But, they realise, even that thought could be due to their own bewitchment.)

The Tarnished realises that, even as they're allowed more and more freedoms, they are under a charm. They know this. But... they also know how gentle Miquella's hands in their hair feel, and how warm his smile is when he looks at his flourishing and happy people, and how for all the world he seems to truly care. And so, as time passes, they simply... stop thinking of the fact they're charmed, and they surround themselves with the gifts given by the god, and they let their thoughts be only of love.

[katyahina]

Just some references I've been compiling, but I decided to put them here!

1) Marika seems to have two distinct stages: one with less detailed dress (unless sculpture creators were just lazy fdshhfds) but with three braids (right long one, left cut one and back big one) (screenshot proving the third big braid on the back as depicted on her statues in the Churches by @blaiddfailcam in this ( x ) really cool theory post!). And second with her more trademark singular braid pushed to the side! The bracelets on her shoulders are permanent, but her wrist bracelets seem to just come and go. Well, like her belt. @val-of-the-north put it the best: "people do not have only one look, so why demigods should be different" 💀

UPDATE 6/6/24: I finally have a good shot of her third braid!

2) She doesn't seem to have more than B cups though, and her face shows a mole above her right eyebrow. I hoped Radagon had the same feature, but with the best model of his face I still can't say whether it is so because of how his hair is placed:

3) Miquella is strange, as his statue versions and his drawing/DLC promo versions still vary, despite him supposedly being stuck in the same state forever

But seems like his "earlier" stage depicted in the statues has this 'apron' feature, likely inspired by those ancient Greece robes! The DLC version so far has more plain 'skirt' part without apron part, and with the belt over his sleeves! And MUCH longer hair, of course!

UPDATE: I've been able to take a closer look at Miquella's statue FINALLY, and turns out the version of his statue that holds a bud (especially notable in Ordina) has some herbs sticking out from the "apron"! What I assumed was apron might actually be a pouch for herbs and alike, attached to his belt! Or it is an apron with inner pockets. x)

4) I wonder whether, maybe, Malenia and Godwyn used to have white robes before (in the states that are depicted in the statues), and dark blue with golden embroidery simply means adulthood? Also Godwyn's Prince of Death state appears to have the blue clothing let down to only cover the lower body, same as Radagon and Marika's when we find them (saw these good statue models here ( x ) on xitter)

^ also mind how this body for SURE looks more adult than the body on the statue that holds Malenia and Miquella!

UPDATE 6/6/24 (another one): I was able to find the image with an angle that shows Malenia's face in that statue with Godwyn! Her smaller self does have less elaborate crown, of course!

( x )

In this age, her crown is reasonably same as Miquella's, and circles around her head in full, whereas with her older depiction you can see the crown circling under hair!

[ganondoodle]

(more elden ring radahn thoughts)

on whats really left of him .. and his soul? general too many thoughts about him- long post and probably incoherent, but you know me, im never coherent anyway, many thoguhts, head full, quite literally

in base game, he has lost his mind we are told, and clearly he isnt like he used to be, but we really dont know the extend of it hes clearly capable of fighting rather .. controlled; its not like hes biting and clawing after you, he still uses his swords (and bow, sth he doesnt even have in dlc) and magic, we know even in this condition he held back the stars AND still fought you hard at the same time (i know undead people can still fight in elden ring, pls hear me out)

and i wonder .. how much of his mind did he really lose, obviously some since he eats people now which isnt sth he used to do, but ... we dont know how talkactive he used to be, we get one (two? i can only think of one) quotes from him in the descriptions of an item, he might have been a man of few words already, so him not talking at all isnt that good of a measure (not saying its the only measure, just wanted to mention), resorting to eating people that atack you might just be an act of desperation too

we get told he kills friend and foe alike (and im not questioning that really) but in his cutscene we see him drag along the bodies of cleanrot knights, who are under direct dommand of malenia, and by extend miquella, im guessing they kept sending them after him to finish him off; now knowing that him dying means being sent to the realm of shadow, to miquella, and NOT knowing if he wanted that, i feel that that detail has grown in importance-

when you start the fight, hes rather defensive, shooting at you almost immediately upon you entering the arena with no extra cutscene either, what he shoots at you a long ranged gravitation bolts that stop you dead in tracks with a very high stagger rate and if you are on torrent it stagger you off of it; i know it could be just tactical and bc all he knows now is to fight as best as he can BUT, you could also look at it as a defensive strategy, to keep you away, and away from him .. even though you are not told he is afraid to die and he eats people now, sure he could come over there and snack on you once he shot you enough times, but the important thing is that you as a threat to his life is eliminated AND he doesnt seem to have some sort of insatiable hunger for people that makes him charge and snap at you immediately, there could be self control there still (if i wanted to reach a little further i could also say he could be trying to keep you away from him not jsut to save himself but to save you from him too, but thats a reach and i know that)

once you get close enough he usually changes to fire a salve of arrows that fall from the sky and follows you around, also high in stagger- its only when you get too close that he pulls out his swords and charges at you

his arena is interestign as well, its a piece of land in caelid that is inaccessible (unless you can fly?) from all sides, a barren battlefield only reached through a teleporter, im not sure if it is the same place as when he fought malenia or not (wasnt that in the middle of caelid where you find the rot needle?) but i doubt anyone could have put him there against his will, so did he .. go there himself? or stay there for that matter- how quickly do you lose yourself when infected with rot? and how quickly for him, since hes a demigod? did he intentionally isolate himself there? make it harder to reach him for both friend and foe alike?

another point is that most enemies (as far as i can think of) that are infected with rot/are in caelid also deal rot damage, radahn does not, hes even really vunerable to it in fact, its an intersting detail to me bc he only uses either standard attacks or gravitational magic, given that hes been in this condition for a long time and its caelid id expect the rot to be somewhat important there, but its not

how much has he really lost his mind, is he really as mindless as jerren makes him out to be? is he trying to stay alive no matter what, isolating himself on an (almost) island and only living off what comes there, which is usually people that want to kill him, be it friend or foe, all are out for his life one way or another, could it be defensive ... desperate even? no one but him and miquella/malenia seem to know that him dying means hes put into the land of shadow, where miquella is waiting for him; (why wouldnt he tell anyone? was he not able to? was he afraid to upset the golden order by spilling it out?) could he know that would be the end of him having his own will, knowing what miquella can do to people? ... perhaps even .... having been manipulated by him before when he was less experienced and more in direct vicinity to him, to promise something he doesnt actually want?

this is a reach too but ... could he be trying to make himself unusable for miquella, theres no real cure for the rot, could he have decided to stay alive as long as he can to both destroy his own body (and soul even?) intentionally so it cant be used against his will, like a desperate act to destroy himself rather than become someones unwilling puppet? did he succeed in both somewhat but not enough to become fully worthless and unsalvageable? just how much would he have had to destroy himself for him to become useless to miquella, is there even a limit? would he have been "revived" no matter what, no matter what little was left of him?

how is he mindless, yet his soul it taken when you kill him, his body beyond repair, but his soul intact? that seems like the opposite of what he is, and you are told he is, in the base game to me (maybe hes just fallen into madness i guess, but given the soul is like .. the self, he should be mad in the dlc too then, unless miquella can just pick out the parts he likes and throw away the rest .... which isnt impossible either)

now, there could be the argument that he might have actually agreed to it, hes been a big fan of godfrey, who is a consort to marika, a god, and little more than her pawn as well, his 'young' look you see at the end of the dlc could also be connected to it, the braids i thought where a sign of miquellas influence could also be just how he looked back then, an imitation of godfreys hairstyle- and we dont know for sure he didnt used to have them even after gettign older since they could just have loosened after spending so much time in a zombie lite condition (or is it?)-- but his portrait in volcano manor doesnt seem to have them either, hes also sporting the armor you see in base game (i think) there the fact that, according to godfrey, strength is the only thing that matters and to become a consort you need to be the strongest of all to be worthy, could also be interpreted that way- though i dont if he would have wanted to replace the golden order, he was a fan and follower of it, did he even think of it the implications? did he even know? was he just young and stupid? (very possible tbh)

then theres the idea of there being less left of his soul, so in the dlc he is barely if anything at all, himself, both in body AND soul, how much was there even left after all that time in caelid, he is silent except for like two grunts he does also in base game (he has more sounds there too), completely unexpressive, with very few gravitation magic, in the second phase miquella literally snakes his arms around his neck, almost every single attack is filled with light magic, clearly coming from miquella and not him (i know bringing up leonard might seem overemphasizing his role, but in these games what information you get is very scarce so every bit you do learn is important and was written intentionally- but he stayed together with him in caelid, all his attacks involve him in one way or another, he only started to learn that magic for leonard, so radahn didnt have too abandon him as he got too large to ride him, he uses gravitation in dlc too, so it means that at the point of his life that he is recreated as he already had leonard or that that is a sign of whatever is left of his soul that comes from a much older him, and if it is, its very little) (also this is a reach too but most enemies with horses have separate health bars, he doesnt, he and leonard basically share the same health bar, literally inseperable uwu)

"theres no evidence hes mindcontrolled" people say to me. have you seen him? how he acts? or more, how he DOESNT act? that miquellas entire deal is THAT HE BEWITCHES PEOPLE, ffs he STEALS YOUR HEART if you get grabbed by him twice in the dlc fight- theres no evidence he wasnt either, you are told they had a vow, but you never know what exactly that was, when it was (in the memory of miquella wishing for radahn to be his consort you only see miquella- was it a silly wish between kids tha miquella never grew out of?), in what circumstances, you never get to hear radahn say anything about it, its completely left out, thats a little unrelieable to me! idk!

but fine, maybe he did agree to it, maybe he thought being a consort to a god would make him just as cool as godfrey, maybe he fought malenia, who was said to be undefeated, only to prove he had the strength worthy of being a consort and it backfired when malenia infected him with the rot (why then? also he doesnt look exactly thrilled about what she say to him in the trailer but that could be just me too i guess lolololol), maybe he wanted to die all along but his pride meant he couldnt just let the rot win, maybe the festival was really what he wished for and told no one what the real goal was, maybe he wasnt rotten in the first place and just acted that part so he had an excuse to die without having to fight with all his strength as even the undefeated warrior wasnt able to beat him, maybe becoming a consort to miquella was worth leaving leonard behind to him, maybe he wanted to be nothing but a pawn to a god, to be used and discarded, maybe he really believed in miquellas wish for a "gentle" world (aka all love miquella)

it makes sense, im not going to lie about that, but the other does too- and in the end, we will never know what the truth is! we will never know if that was what he wanted, or if he was manipulated even back then, i wish we could to see his part, his voice, his will, but we never will, and it doesnt matter, in the end it doesnt matter if he wanted it or not, the fact remains hes a silent frankensteins monster of miquella, expression- and personalityless, a voiceless pawn to a god that steals everyones hearts

i dont need to be "right", i like to think about things, i am in the camp of he didnt want to or decided against it, but it doesnt really matter, even if miyazaki himself went onto stage and loudly declared that yes it was all planned from the start and radahn was in on it the whole time- i still would think the other way around it, i jsut think about him alot, i want to question things instead of taking everythign i hear at face value, especially when its very strangely told from one side, i will question every little thing if i only hear one side, no matter how much sense it makes or not, it makes me suspicious

(i some of this can be attributed about purely gameplay stuff, like the change in armor so he doesnt look the same etc, but i dont care, i like to think about the implications it brings with it, intentionally or not)

and there he is in a barren battlefield, eating the remains of whoever enters his isolated cage with the intent to kill him, never succeeding, howling like a lonely old wolf at the sky, is it desperation about a fate he cannot escape, grief about what hes done or failed to do, is it a call of yearning? for freedom?

we dont know. and it doesnt matter.

[roachymochi]

Not done rambling about Elden Ring actually. I wanna talk about Melina and Messmer. They both have butterflies, they both have vision of fire, they are siblings. And from what we know they may well be empyreans.

the term empyreans refer to the highest sphere of heavens, a region of pure light and flame where divine being dwells. But it's etymology, taken literally, means "on fire" or "set ablaze".

I always thought it was a strange way to name potentials gods-to-be, but the fire theme seems like a direct reference to Messmer and Melina's status as they are burned by their own flames. Especially for Melina, has her burned and bodiless status imply her body was completely consumed.

The dlc teaches us about the nature of Marika's flesh, and how an empyrean can leave behind an entire other person from a part of their flesh. Miquella leave behind his love, who his St Trina. Marika probably did the same to create Radagon.

That bring us back to Messmer and Melina. Could they have been once a single unified being ?

We know Messmer lost quite a lot of his flesh. Most of it was devoured by the serpent, but their is one piece of him that was taken out by someone else. His right eye, replaced by a seal of Marika to keep him safe from the Serpent. Melina only has her right eye opened. In the frenzied flame ending, her left eye seem to have been hiding a cursed and fearsome power that may have been sealed away.

Messmer committed many atrocities, but he only seemed to care about her mother, and the love she gave him. He his weak, tired, and emotionless : like his soul was has hollow has his body devoured by the snake. Yet he persist and refuse to die, until it may serve his mother's goal.

Melina is completely unknown by anyone but the Tarnished. She never knew her mother and seems to wonder what motherly love is like. She is emotionally distant, like her bodyless existence makes her untangible. Yet she care so much about everything, the beauty of the world, and how much life is yet to be. To save this, she is ready to burn herself, even if it means destroying everything her own mother ever built.

Messmer and Melina have so much in common, and their difference only highlight the strength of their common theming. I can't help but think they used to be one and the same.

[mac-tirs]

i mentioned it in the replies of one of my posts, but i love how tied morgott and mohg are in soul despite their differences. their great runes occupying the same tower is one thing, but the possibilities that they work together in some capacity despite having such fundamental differences in beliefs is so interesting.

there's nothing that explicitly states that they're collaborating on anything, but i feel you can get real far if you let your mind wander. their shared occupation of the shunning grounds, morgott and mohg's matching shackles, morgott's sword having that bloodflame slice ability, the complimentary ways that they fight with morgott's speed and mohg's strength, mohg's illusion guarding the frenzied flame proscription with morgott's seal hidden behind him... there's so much to work with there!

the last part is what interests me the most, tbh. something peculiar about this setup is how morgott's illusions work; when he summons margit in stormveil and out in altus, gold shimmers around him while a symbol bearing the sigil of the crucible appears on the ground beneath margit. when he summons godfrey's spirit, the same symbol and golden hue appears on him. but with mohg, no such gold appears, nor any symbol. he merely materialises out of thin air.

this is interesting because of the fact that this means morgott didn't summon him. not only because he doesn't show up with the symbol or gold, but also because when you kill morgott, his margit illusions in stormveil and altus also disappear if you don't kill them before morgott. this doesn't happen with mohg in the sewers, who can be fought before you even get to godfrey, even if you kill mohg in his palace first before any of them. but why is that?

i personally believe that it's because mohg's illusion is not one born from the same magic that morgott uses for his incantations. i know, shocking, the golden order fanboy and the formless mother fanboy use different spells, but it does serve to explain why mohg's illusion stays even when the man himself was slain first. it sets their magic apart very clearly and decisively, but also grants more insight into their collaboration.

mainly because i think that morgott and mohg working together on this can fit into 2 different possible reasonings behind the nature of their relationship. the first being that this is a begrudging truce built off of mutual respect and fear of the frenzied flame, and that they don't agree on much else beyond that and are estranged otherwise. the second being that they still work together in some capacity and still hold even the slightest bit of affection for each other, and guardianship over the frenzied flame using the magic they are best at (illusions and seals) is testament to that.

both are plenty compelling, though i find myself more drawn to the 2nd reason. i wonder if there was a time before miquella where mohg was establishing his dynasty and his brother, a fanatic of the golden order, turned a blind eye to his actions out of love. its probable that morgott and mohg never publicly acknowledged their familial connection, since neither varre nor ansbach make any mention of mohg having a brother, nor does anyone (barring shaneheight) know that morgott is actually an omen. it could be that, when mohg left the sewers to establish his dynasty, morgott let the matter lie and the two went their separate ways rather amicably, if a little bitter.

as per usual, this was just a huge ramble with no direction. just musings pretty much. i love thinking about these guys a lot.

[hoarah-babylon]

I had to make a BIG post going over everything that's got my brain whirring after watching the story trailer - it's all my speculation and personal opinion so don't take it as fact yada yada IT'S FUN SPECULATION TIME

(I'll put it under the cut bc this is gonna be a LONG one)

“Miquella the kind spoke of the beginning. The seduction. And the betrayal. An affair from which Gold arose. And so too was Shadow born."

My interpretation of this scene is that we are seeing the creation of the Golden Order by Marika. She plucks grace from something dead and fleshy, and holds it up to the Greater Will, beckoning in her new age. It would make sense to me, considering the voiceover, that this is a dead god that has been betrayed by Marika so she can pursue her Order and claim power. It does like quite reminiscent of Kos from Bloodborne to me. The fleshiness of the corpse also reminds me of the godskins/snakeskin. However, I don't believe this is the Gloam Eyed Queen. From my understanding of the timeline (mainly thanks to @eldenringslut) the GEQ didn't come about until later on during Marika's reign - if we are seeing the creation of the GO, and my understanding of the timeline is correct, I don't think it would make sense for this to be the GEQ. I can't deny different aspects of this do allude to things related to her though - the dusky sky, the godskin-like flesh. But I almost think that would be too 'perfect' for it to fit together like that, especially with how much people want to know more about the GEQ, I think fromsoft would want to keep us in the dark and surprise us. Whatever we are seeing here, Gold and Shadow seemingly came about at the same time.

We get our first look at what appears to be Messmer's army. They appear to all wield spears which ties into Messmer's whole Impaler thing, along with the shot of the person(?) impaled on the steps. I wonder who these people were, if they had to stay in the Shadow Realm after the battle was done (if it is?). I find the design on the helmet interesting - at first glance I thought it could be a tree or roots, but actually doesn't it kind of remind you of the black tendrils that shoot out of Messmer's flame? I think it could be either, or both, or maybe it's a chicken and egg situation and they're related somehow... my first thought when the initial gameplay trailer came out was that the dark tendrils in Messmer's flame could be deathroot or something similar to that. Maybe I wasn't far off?

We get our first shot of Messmer here. His pose pretty much solidifies to me that this is his army - this is the pose of a character commanding an army. It's so classic fantasy, the composition and everything, I love it. Messmer is awesome. I'm obsessed with the snake-like flames flying above the carnage.

"What followed was a war unseen. One that could never be put to song. A purge without Grace, or honour. The tyranny of Messmer's flame."

My take on this is that once Marika had won her battle/betrayed the God we see her pluck Grace from, she had her opponents banished and/or wiped out at the hands of Messmer. I have to say, it does surprise me that it seems Messmer was around and fully grown at the creation of Marika's Order. The implications there leave me with so many questions. Who is his other parent? Marika is Numen, and they seldom give birth. This is not an insignificant thing for her to have a child, especially if the theory of births being governed by the Erdtree/Golden Order is to be believed, and this must have came about before then. It would also go against the idea that Messmer is the full brother/secret triplet of Miquella and Malenia, considering that Miq + Mal were not born until Marika had left Godfrey for Radagon. I find that detail so intriguing... especially because I was so on board with the butterfly theories.

No idea who this is, but they're cool and that definitely looks like the kind of weapon we'd be able to pick up. It just looks like a PVP weapon, know what I mean? Very reminiscent of Vyke as well imo, similar pose to the box art of him along with the billowing cape. This reminds me, I'm noticing an emphasis on hair in this trailer too - I never took much note of Marika's hair before but in this trailer there was a lot of emphasis put on how long it is, how similar it is to threads of Grace, and Miquella's hair too. It's making me think of the bible story of Samson but let me not go too off the rails

Here we have some of the coolest shots in the trailer imo. This posits the Lion/Omens as enemies of Messmer to me - which to me supports the view that Messmer is aligned with Marika. The Lion/Omens always came off to me as if they were making a mockery of the GO - positioning themselves as enemies to Marika/the GO. We get another good look at his Flame, with the tendrils. They almost remind me of thorns actually. That final shot looks like a victory scene to me. It also really hammers home the Impaler thing. The man knows his brand!

Then we pan up to see what hangs above this burned city - this 'shadow tree'. THIS IS MARIKA'S RUNE.

I think we are seeing the origins of her rune as part of the modern Elden Ring here - Grace/blessings dripping from the bough of this tree. I have to say given the imagery relating to motherhood on the run up to the DLC, the rune does look vaguely yonic, especially on the seals. I think references to motherhood are in this trailer too - Marika taking something from a fleshy orifice with a voiceover talking about seduction, I can't imagine that wasn't intentional. So far the main character we have seen is her child, after all. The whole story of Elden Ring revolves around Marika's children. I have a feeling Marika's relation to motherhood and childbearing is going to be a big theme in the DLC.

I remember when the first gameplay trailer dropped, people theorised that this was Ranni's rune, and I was happy to believe that because of the similarities to Rennala's rune. But now I believe it's Miquella's rune, for several reasons, one being it reminds me of Malenia's rune, and they are twins after all. Although Rennala and Malenia's runes are oddly similar, it just makes more sense to me that it would be Miquella's, considering we are following in his footsteps. I think these rune spikes are going to be our DLC equivalents of sites of grace.

"And so kindly Miquella would abandon everything. His golden flesh, his blinding strength..."

Abandoning his flesh is very reminiscent of Ranni... but why would he need to abandon his flesh? Perhaps after Mohg stole him away? Though I have to say, I'm warming up the idea that Mohg never actually had Miquella, he just thought he did. That might not make sense considering that body in Mohg's palace is how we get to the Shadow Lands, but I don't know, something about it doesn't sit quite right with me for some reason. The line 'his blinding strength' is a bit odd. I can't take credit for this next idea, I saw it on twitter, but someone suggested that this is referencing him potentially abandoning Malenia - his strength, his blade. For Miquella to abandon Malenia though, it doesn't exactly align with what we know of his character. This is the person that turned his back on the GO because it could do nothing for Malenia's sickness. He'd need a really good reason to do that to her. Maybe it was his only option? I'm so intrigued about why Miquella is even in the Shadow Lands to begin with. What are his motivations? Perhaps it's something to do with his proclivity to want to welcome all, especially those outside of Grace, I suppose those in the shadow lands fall under that mantle.

"Even his fate."

Now THIS is super interesting - our first look at St. Trina! In her usual purple - associated with sleep. It does also look like she's sleeping here, sinking... What on earth does it mean to say that Miquella abandoned his fate as we are shown an image of St. Trina? Was he meant to eventually become Trina fully? We don't know much about her, but we do know Trina is an aspect/alter-ego of some sort of Miquella. Considering his parents were one in the same body, it's not a stretch to assume this could be the same case here. But in Marika/Radagon's case, it doesn't seem completely intentional - with the Ring shattering, I always got the impression they each fought to be in control of their singular body. Perhaps Miquella/Trina worked together rather than against each other? The queer part of me can't help but think of some kind of allegory to transition and Miquella having to walk away from it for whatever reason... but I really don't know enough to figure anything out from this.

I saw someone point out that this shot of Trina looks like Trina's lilies too, which is super cool (sorry I don't remember who that was).

"But we are not deterred. We choose to follow. Will you walk with us?"

I'm honestly surprised to see all these characters that we saw in the previous trailer just hanging out, I assumed they'd all be enemies of different factions. But here they look like allies, and from the voiceover they sound like it too, asking if we will join them. I think the voiceover is one of these NPCs. Seeing the fighting guy second on the left has got me super excited, what if he teaches us the hands-on combat we saw him do in the first trailer? I also think the crouching character on the right is the one we saw sleeping in the purple area (Trina?) from the last trailer:

Anyway, these are my thoughts, I hope they resonate in one way or another. I can't wait to come back in a couple months and see how wrong I was <3 yayyy

[wraith-caller]

Love how Leda’s charm effects was literally psych medication to keep her rampant, compulsively murderous paranoia in check. THE freak knight we deserved for real. Only wish she had more dialogue/quest steps so we could really dive into how bananas she is, and how she managed to purge all the other Needle Knights.

Dude same haha When I realised what was going on with the charm breaking, I was sorta dreading talking to her, thinking, 'oh she's going to just be like doubting her own dedication or sth, and her arc will be about renewing her faltering faith'. But I was a fool, bc they were like 'haha, actually, this woman is an unhinged fanatic'. They ran with it and I really enjoyed it. I'd like to read over all her dialog again, plus her loot, and go back over various Haligtree items, too. I wondered before game's launch if she may end up being the intended knight for the Haligtree knight's sword, given her armor's design parallels to the Carian Knight set, but now I'm not sure. I also wonder, was she that fervent before the charm? If so it could really shed the light on the nature of how the bewitching works. For example, Ansbach was NOT super gung ho and lovey dovey about Miquella before it broke. Thiollier didn't have much at all to say about him either. Freyja owed him more, given their personal contact, so it makes sense she'd hold fast to him. The Hornsent is interesting because he's willing to abide the Tarnished/Erdtree people like us so long as we're helping Miquella reach his goals - but after the charm, it's revealed he doesn't care about Miquella so much as he cares about his intentions to rectify what Marika did to the hornsent people. So what about Leda? If she was this dedicated to Miquella beforehand, why charm her at all? Basing this on nothing, but I like to think of her having a sort of internal conflict about it that kinda broke her. Did Miquella doubt her dedication? Wasn't she loyal enough? Why would he meddle with her mind like that, her pure and kind Miquella, who she swears her sword to? It must be a failing on her part, and so she must be more dedicated, more fervent in her faith, until she's seeking for threats that aren't even there. The Hornsent makes some sense to suspect, but Thiollier? Mr. weak as a kitten? Before Ansbach? It's not suspicion coming from a logical place.

[ceofcatgirls]

Thinking about it, it seems every child of Radagon and Marika has either parallels or thematic relations with a demigod from another marriage

Miquella - Ranni and Mohg

Malenia - Radahn and Morgott

Messmer - Rykard and Godwyn

I think the Empyrean twins and the Omen twins are most interesting.

In the case of Miquella and Mohg, they are both twins cursed from birth who wish to disavow Marika's legacy. They've witnessed what it's like to be born cursed, for Mohg he faced discrimination and for Miquella he witnessed what people shunned from the GO endured, and how that could've been him had he not been lucky to not be abandoned by Marika. As a consequence, they both want to make a new era where people like themselves no longer suffer.

It makes me wonder if Miquella was aware of what the Omen twins endured, and if it influenced his beliefs and his choice of picking Mohg's body for Radahn

As for Malenia and Morgott, they too are twins born with a cursed from an outer entity. They've grown to greatly detest this curse, as seen by Malenia not wanting to use her rot powers at all until the Aeonia battle, and this is even more obvious in the case of Morgott. They've also developed great loyalty towards a figurehead of an era, Marika in the case of Morgott and Miquella in the case of Malenia. Conveniently, Miquella and Marika also share thematic parallels. Malenia and Morgott are also great in battle, and Radahn has suffered under both of them. They are willing to fight for the era they believe in and put a lot of religious trust on the figureheads they follow.

The case of Messmer and Godwyn is also interesting, because of how different they are. Messmer has two curses; hid fire and the abyssal serpent, meanwhile Godwyn is born completely normal and only suffers when he half dies. They are also figureheads of the order of Marika, with Godwyn being a stand-in for the Golden Order and Messmer leading Marika's crusade. Their hair colours also show the two sides of Marika; blonde and red.

Though, I'll say the case for Messmer and Rykard is just as interesting. Messmer was born cursed from a serpent yet Rykard chooses to be eaten by the God devouring serpent. For Messmer, the curse was forced upon him. For Rykard, he chose it on his own free will. This dichotomy is one of the central bits to their characters, and how important the concept of free will is. Rykard would view Messmer in great awe, perhaps he wouldn't even see the abyssal serpent as a curse. Messmer on the other hand, would perhaps not understand why Rykard decided to ruin himself, and ofc detest him for going against his mother's likeness.

I won't speak on more obvious writing, like with Miquella/Ranni and Malenia/Radahn.

This isn't exclusive to the trio I mentioned above, btw. I think every child of Marika has some relations to each other in some way. The most obvious example being Ranni and Godwyn. I just think it's neat how the characters relate to each other whilst still being very unique

This goes for Melina too, btw. But my speculation on that feels more like a headcanon more than anything haha. But it seems Melina, like Marika, subtly wants us to go for Ranni. I think this is because Melina put great importance in fighting for a new world where life can flourish (as seen if you pursue the frenzied flame), and Ranni's ending is the best for this. She is also more than happy to destroy symbols of Marika's order, like the Erdtree.

Now this is real headcanon territory. But, if the theory that Melina was split in body and soul, and that who we travel with is the spirit whilst who we see in the frenzied flame ending is her body, it would seem Melina also has thematic correlations with Godwyn and Ranni. Specifically about the splitting of the soul and body. But ofc that's entirely speculation!

Ofc she also has similarities with Messmer, in the sense of them having the same closed eye, and both being related to fire (except Melina embraces that fiery nature, whilst Messmer detests it. That speaks about their characters, I think. Especially in relation to Marika), but overall Melina for me seems to be a more unique character, and if anything she takes after Marika the most. I have further thoughts about Melina pertaining to Millicent but I'll leave that be.

Anyways. This was a quick thought dump I needed to get out there into the world.