#I think the problem of the fire nation is never really addressed and I need it to

[jetantifa]

I don't accept that the Fire Nation should be allowed to keep their monarchy and maybe Zuko tries and tries to cling onto power because he's convinced he can change things in the Fire Nation from the inside out. It's ill thought out, he's naive but he's desperate to try and the Avatar lets him, just as misguided.

Zuko talks the right talk when he's suggesting they need to pull back from the Earth Kingdom, but when an advisor points out that the quarry only exists because the firebenders made it possible to mine, that if they're pulling troops back then Earthbenders will lose their jobs, and what else will they find to do? Will they go backwards without people to guide them? He sounds troubled as he says it, it reminds Zuko of Iroh and something in him twists.

Zuko doesn't recognise it for what it is he's done until the military stationed there are drowned out, like rats, and the advisor begins to let spite bleed into his words, when he calls the Earth kingdom leeches who don't even know what's good for them because they aren't accepting that hand the fire nation offered them, and Zuko can't find a reason to disagree, he knows they can't govern themselves

It keeps happening, nobility stopping him from doing a smooth, clean break, a unit gets maimed, and Zuko doesn't know how to navigate it, he doesn't even know who could be involved. It's tied to the Earth kingdom but that just draws suspicion, after all, wasn't Zuko in Ba Sing Se for a while? Who's to say he wasn't murdering them in cold blood to stir some terror, to make his advisors push back, Ozai liked to do this then cut down anyone too unwilling to fall into line quickly.

The way it looks to the people, he's attempting to snatch away power from the nobility who usually back him, his family? Zuko can't get rid of them, because he knows too much change could set up a coup, so he's moving slowly, but in doing so, he's not removing fire nation bases, or pearing down his army, he's stagnant. When people start talking about Ozai again, in whispers, he doesn't understand, he thought if the head of the snake was removed, the rest would follow along so he could rebirth the fire nation into a new era.

But the imperialistic fire nation was always more than one man, it's systematic, it's a disease and Zuko only realises it when the walls are closing in and he's abdicating under threat of being usurped, he's stuck trying to figure out what's happening and anyway, I just think Zuko finding the freedom fighters, with Jet alive and making sense of what the fire nation represents, that the advisors and nobility obviously don't want to let go of their power because war is profitable, so ofc they dress it up as benevolent rather than controlling

I just think class traitor Zuko finally joining the freedom fighters could be so fun because the Palace was always stifling but he's only realising it when he's in the trees again, when the blue spirit comes alive again because you can't wash away 100 years of imperialism when it's embedded in the structure itself and they should start getting along in their shared ideal of wanting to resist. For Zuko it's to remove the rot, the corruption from the Fire Nation, for Jet and his people, to get the Fire Nation army to stop oppressing them, to leave them to govern themselves.

That it's Fire Nation propaganda that they (the Earth kingdom) can't function without the Fire Nation, it's nothing more than a way for the Fire Nation bourgeoisie to line their pockets because war is far more profitable than demilitarising like Zuko wanted so ofc they'd be at odd ends with him

[redbayly]

Had to do another rambling because some Antis got their panties in a twist.

After posting my very clearly tagged Zutara headcanons last night, I saw a post in the Zutara tag this morning where some Antis were ranting about their usual nonsense.

I would've just blocked and moved on, but something caught my attention about the post. I realized what they were talking about was very likely a reference to my post from last night.

I don't remember all the details (I did end up blocking them), but the crux of their complaint was that Zutara shippers steal Kataang dynamics or something. Specifically, they were calling out a recent post about Katara and Zuko traveling around helping people (which I talked a lot about in my post, so that's why I think it was me they were calling out) and that that is exclusively a Kataang thing that I stole and applied to Zutara. Also, someone in the comments had added that, if Zuko ever did go around helping people it would only be with Mai.

There was also a lot of whining about seeing Zutara stuff when they were looking for Kataang. As if I hadn't clearly tagged my post as Zutara and even used the word within the first few sentences to let the reader know what the post was about.

(For pity's sake, moderate your tags or skip over something with a tag you don't like! It's not difficult!).

But back to the main argument that Zuko and Katara wouldn't travel around helping people together and that that is exclusive to Kataang.

That is absolute bullshit.

First off, it was a headcanon of mine and I can headcanon what I damn well please (as can everybody else).

Secondly, what even is that argument they were making? Did they completely ignore the fact that both Zuko and Katara are good-hearted, helpful people who are trying to make the world a better place? We see numerous instances in canon of them helping others for the sole reason that it's just their nature to do so. In fact, if anything, they are more likely to seek out people to help out of pure altruism than Aang, who usually just sort of stumbles across people in trouble and helps because it's his job as Avatar.

(I'm not insulting Aang. I'm just saying that he's more likely to goof off and avoid getting involved in something if he thinks it's not serious enough, whereas Katara and Zuko are more likely to leap at opportunities to be helpful).

A third reason this is ridiculous is that Aang doesn't own a monopoly on doing good or helping the world. Zuko was already planning to make changes to heal the damage the Fire Nation caused. He's an "idealist with a pure heart and unquestionable honor." Do the Antis really think he would sit around on his ass while there are orphans to feed and towns to rebuild and justice to be restored? Also, why would Katara not be out there doing her all to help the world regardless of whether Aang is involved or not? Katara "never turns her back on people who need [her]" so I doubt she'd let anyone decide for her whether she travels around to fix people's problems.

I could go on and on about why this Anti-Zutara argument was stupid, but I've addressed the main points.

So, I'll say this one last time. If you dislike Zutara, read the damn tags and avoid the post you don't want to see. Don't whine about it and make up nonsensical arguments for your faux outrage. Leave Zutara shippers alone and let us have our headcanons.

You already got your ship in Bryke's canon. Just let us enjoy our headcanons in peace.

[balanceoflightanddark]

Avatar the Last Airbender Netflix Episode 2- "Warriors"

Well, things took a bit of a downward turn.

It started off reasonably well enough. Aang buries Monk Gyatso and gives him a proper send-off. Again, I do like that his bond with Gyatso is a driving force for his character. Even introduces new stuff like his initial problems with training with Katara since he never trained with anyone outside of Gyatso before. Particularly since an ongoing subplot is his inability to control his bending abilities sort of caused him to latch onto his father figure. While I'm not exactly on board with "other kids being afraid of Aang" before he was revealed to be the Avatar, I do think it feels like an extension. Like maybe once he gained control, he made friends again like in the cartoon.

Thus, without Gyatso there to guide him, he feels more lost. Particularly with his duties as the Avatar. So he has a good solid foundation to go to Kyoshi Island this time around since he feels he needs the wisdom of a previous Avatar in order to find his place in the world and whatnot.

...we'll get to Kyoshi's "wisdom" in a moment, but for now, just know that I'm not a fan of how she was handled.

Now on to the Kyoshi Warriors, who are fan (Azula snickers) favorites for obvious reasons. On the one hand, I do like that they addressed how their isolationism has caused problems for Suki and the island. That lack of contact with the outside world has left them with little options other than keeping their heads down while the Fire Nation basically stomps everywhere else. Again, this feels true to the original series. The Fire Nation preyed on that disunity between the Nations to get such a huge advantage. Divide and conquer so to say. Hell, we see that in action with Zhao pushing Zuko to work with him to capture the Avatar instead of being a lone wolf and chasing after glory like Zuko has been doing (only thing done well with Zhao in this episode if I might add). This is in contrast with Suki's mother being reluctant to harbor Aang, Sokka, and Katara, wanting them to leave as soon as possible. You get why wanting them to leave is a priority, but you also know that you can't exactly run forever and keep your heads to the ground without fighting.

...and here's where I start to run into problems.

Let's start with Sokka and Suki for starters. I know a lot of people were angry about Sokka not being sexist this time around. I was not, but probably for different reasons than most. The idea of sexism in the Water Tribes is based on Native American stereotypes. For a series that's supposed to be about anti-colonialism and breaking those very stereotypes, that's a big red flag. With that in mind, I'm not against Sokka not having it.

I will get to the sexism thing later though, around when we get to Pakku and the North, but toning it down here was not the issue.

What IS is how Sokka's struggle with leadership is portrayed here. Again, this is a reasonable extension of the original series and I have no problems with it. Hell, I could see it as a pretty good developing point for Sokka. Problem is...I don't think it went far enough. Sokka is presented here as being aware of his inadequacies as a leader and a warrior. Yet, he's not really challenged either. Suki doesn't really do a whole lot aside from ogle him and tell him he's better than he think he is. Which sort of falls into the trap of Suki being reduced to Sokka's girlfriend in my opinion. I know she has that subplot of wanting to see the outside more and all, but then we have scenes where it's implied that she's too hard on Sokka for beating him?

Okay, let's take a step back for a moment. Removing the sexism angle, part of Sokka's flaws in the original was his pride. He thought he could take Zuko when he obviously couldn't. He demeaned the Kyoshi Warrior despite them beating him. The whole purpose was that he was using his pride to cover up his insecurities about being a nonbender and his doubts about being a leader. Yet at the same time, it was that pride that prevented him from actually confronting his flaws and growing as a person. Suki's purpose in the original was to help him swallow his pride, and thus allow him to grow to become a better warrior. He adopted her customs with humility, and he became a better fighter as a result.

Here? Nothing. He doesn't even adopt the Kyoshi Warrior uniform (which considering one of the problems plaguing the world is division amongst allies is a HUGE missed opportunity), nor do we learn of their values outside of protecting people. Which in a 45 minute episode, boggles the mind about how they couldn't fit that in. Instead we just get a more generic "you're better than you think you are" without deconstructing why Sokka needs that message. He doesn't really learn humility here, just that he needs to be better. That doesn't really address his problems outside of slapping a band aid on it.

Speaking of bad advice...Kyoshi.

I HATED what they did with Kyoshi. I understand that she's not the most compassionate Avatar, but it feels like they ran with her "murder" portrayal the fandom gave her. Her advice to Aang about being a warrior was accepting that things will get bloody, but he shouldn't run from his duty. Yeah. Right. Apparently the only way to fight fire is with fire I guess. Her message of "being merciless" is the exact same doctrine the Fire Nation runs on. Something that is highlighted when Zhao threatens to burn civilians. And it doesn't even make sense from her perspective since she takes down Zhao's soldiers without killing any of them.

Forgive me, but while Kyoshi is somewhat correct that things will get worse, the answer isn't to get meaner and more ruthless as a result. Which honestly comes as a surprise since they bothered to include her backstory from her novels, but forgot that part of her journey was realizing that she needed to be more than some ruthless thug and instilling fear lest she run the risk of becoming like Jianzhu. And she should've known that tearing down a scared kid for running away won't do any good since SHE was a scared kid who initially ran from her duty as the Avatar. It just made her look like a colossal hypocrite.

sighs

Sorry. Kyoshi in the original and in the novels was one of my favorite past Avatars. I'm just insulted they basically made her fanon self canon when she's more than that.

Finally...Zhao. I'm not a fan of how he's the one to burn down Kyoshi Island instead of Zuko. Mainly because it made him look like a colossal idiot. He knows there's an Avatar running around and he only brings A SINGLE SHIP? What's more, he knows about what Kyoshi Island was doing and presumably knows how formidable the Warriors are. Why wouldn't he bring back up in case things heat up? His men don't even outnumber Suki's!

What's worse is that they got some of him down okay. He was wily enough to figure out that Zuko was looking for the Avatar and where Aang was on few clues. So why's he that incompetent here since by all accounts, he should know better? Was the message here that the Fire Nation aren't as powerful as they appear, so Sokka and Aang just need to man up and fight? Then how the hell did the Fire Nation get so close to winning the war in the first place?

...yeah, this episode was a bit of a step down. The kid playing Aang continues to help carry this thing, but honestly, if they can't even get one of the past Avatars right and deconstruct the ruthless attitude of the Fire Nation where it should be needed in this case, I'm not feeling confident for the third episode.

[darklinaforever]

Mai is an apathetic character, certainly, and the only ones she seems to have any real affections for are Zuko and Ty Lee in the series. Because other than that, I get the impression that she doesn't really care about his own family. And it's not a bad thing that she is like that and that Zuko accepts her as she is. The problem is that it's clearly underdeveloped and has no real interest in the plot. To the point that once again, at the end you wonder what Zuko is still doing with her. It would have been interesting to seriously address Mai's apathy. Instead we focus mainly and quite simply on his interest in Zuko, which is... really not great. Creating an independent female character with badass characteristics and suffering from apathy, all of which to finally boil it down to her love for a guy is so inappropriate in my opinion. Especially since this love isn't even treated properly, because since Mai's mental state isn't really treated, she can clearly just be taken for a bitch. And that's how she makes me feel. This story of apathy only comes to light at the start of season 3 and is never addressed again. It's like it's just there to give a reason why Zuko would stay with her despite their very clear differences. In fashion, it's not her fault, it's because of what she went through. (Our first impression of Mai's parents doesn't even seem to be bad. So Mai's statement also feels like a backpedal...) And it might have worked somewhere, if it had been addressed correctly again instead of just once and never brought up again. Although also Zuko maybe didn't even understand the apathy thing like some viewers. Maybe he just understood that Mai had a difficult childhood which caused her to bottle up her emotions and not have a real interest in anything. If he understood just that and not Mai's apathetic aspect... Well that wouldn't really explain why he would still stay with her despite everything in the end. Especially since everyone is not going to think about apathy for Mai once again seeing how it is skimmed over and barely discussed. Mai's character has a lot of potential for me. Even in a romance with Zuko. (Seriously, they look awesome drawing together) But how am I supposed to get invested in a character that's barely covered ? How am I supposed to buy into a romance that just hinges on Mai's childhood crush on Zuko, without getting Zuko's opinion on it, a short, vexing discussion on the boat ride back to the nation of fire ending surprisingly with a kiss for no reason ?! Like... am I supposed to buy into this so-called romance ? Once again, it seemed mostly presented that this relationship was based on not much and was symbolically the epitome of everything Zuko thought he wanted but which he actually doesn't really want and especially what he doesn't need. Damn Bryke you really don't know how to write... Essentially the beginning of Maiko announces a future separation instead of a relationship that will continue. And the thing finally started to justify them staying together later at the end of the series, namely apathy, is barely skimmed over and is addressed only once, just to have done it, not coming from this fact still not made sense of the Maiko endgame. Because, even with the apathy aspect in play, it still does not justify the end of Maiko's game with the way in which their relationship began textually and symbolically speaking. If the writers wanted Maiko at the end of the game, they should have given them another start and treated Mai's character more, whether in her apathy or other aspects of her personality. Give her another fundamental trait than "loving Zuko". Which is to say, I don't like Kataang, but I still prefer this relationship to Maiko. In any case, the best romances are those experienced by Sokka, specifically with Suki.

[church-of-lilith]

Honestly what does give me a little comfort in kind of a messed up way is the fact that us sapphics aren't exactly alone-they pretty much screwed over EVERY minority lmao: Nate's storyline wasn't really explored and mostly centered around his relationship with Jade, Keeley could have had a whole fish out of water storyline like Ted about winning over her coworkers but instead the focused on her relationship drama, completely wasted Edwin and Shandy's potential for cheap laughs, gave a half assed attempt at writing Sam's storyline only to call him literally getting hate crimed a "big whoop" and never address it again, never actually giving Dani a storyline, like the list goes on and on XD its honestly kind of impressive how they managed to lowkey tear down their entire legacy Omg if you can edit your reddit post you should also mention how the only other sapphic character on the entire show is that creepy dog breeder..

This is so true. It feels like they dropped the ball for every single minority character and the longer you think about it the worse it gets.

Let’s talk Nate for a second because his whole storyline really baffles me. They had him coaching at Westham, and then they had him quit (or was he fired?) from Westham OFF SCREEN? And then suddenly an episode later he’s back as the assistant kitman for Richmond? I’ll never understand why these writers were so dead set on him coming back to Richmond, all so he could just fade into the background. And while I do believe the whole kit man decision was a temporary one, and that going forward they made him a coach again, I don’t like the implication that he worked through his issues this whole season to just end up back where he was. There’s no reason Nate couldn’t have gone off and gotten another coaching job at another team! He’s still the Wonder Kid, clearly has mad skills and credibility, you can’t tell me there isn’t a team who would have wanted him! I understand he had to return to Richmond briefly to have closure and make his apologies, but then he could’ve gone off to coach elsewhere and continued to spread the Lasso Way and change the lives of other people! We didn’t need him at Richmond when basically all the work has already been done. I wish they would’ve given me any indication that he’d really been impacted by this whole arc he went through & then gone off to be the change he wanted to see in the world.

Keeley’s whole storyline being about Jack & the business was such a waste of Juno Temple’s amazing acting, and an underutilization of the fan favorite character we know and love. Most everything about her seemed so off this season? And as you pointed out, she really didn’t even become Miss Independent until the very end when Rebecca took over financing and she was able to make decisions about her own business finally. I would’ve much rather they had Rebecca funding it from the start (or at least earlier in the season) so we could have seen her adventures and misadventures through running her own company that didn’t have anything to do with her messy, exploitative relationship with Jack.

The way I feel about them trying to tackle racism with Sam’s storyline is the same way I feel about them trying to tackle homophobia with Colin’s. If you’re gonna half ass it, don’t do it at all. And they certainly didn’t put half the amount of time and effort they needed to into thinking up how to properly handle Sam’s storyline. We went through the whole hate crime that was never addressed again. And then we had this big problem with Edwin in the final episodes where he was like “I’m going to destroy your entire life and you’ll never make money with the restaurant and you’ll never play for the National team.” And then that was just NEVER addressed again?? Not even a throwaway line about Rebecca taking care of it or something?? He was suddenly playing on the Team and the only explanation we were given from Brendan during the AMA was that it was due to ‘national outcry’ like give me a break. Not to mention we never saw Simi again and so we never got to see if she and Sam ended up together. We were sort of just left to infer that everything worked out for Sam, and that just doesn’t work for me.

Poor Dani Rojas was doomed to be nothing more than a joke from the very start. He deserved more, but at the same time I’m almost glad they didn’t give him more because the storylines this season were awful.

So yeah, feels like all of the minorities on the show lost. I don’t know how the writers managed to do this in so little time, but you’re right it is really impressive.

[stereax]

Any scorching hot takes on which top team will drop like a rock next season? Or if you're not feeling spicy, any 4 nations thoughts? Could be anything: positional depth/roster speculation/line comps/which team would win the tumblr hotness poll, etc. Personally I'm very curious which Cs stay Cs and which Cs become Ws

I'm not gonna touch 4 Nations yet because I don't know anything about that, especially because, iirc, they only have six players on each roster right now? I don't want to speculate who goes and who doesn't just yet because, knowing my luck, I'm gonna get half the teams injured just talking about that lol.

But! Hot takes on which teams will do WORSE than last season. This, I CAN do! Under the cut!

Now, I don't think any teams will "drop like a rock" - part of the parity of the NHL means that teams that are good usually stay good for a while and teams that are not usually stay not. A Devils-esque complete collapse is only going to happen if there's massive injuries (like the Devils had) and trade hell (like the Devils again had - there was a deal in place for Markstrom a long time back but it got nixed by Flames ownership, for example). That being said...

I think the New York Rangers is the obvious answer here. They haven't added anyone of note (depth defensemen don't count) in a league where just about every other team has gotten demonstrably better. Part of this is due to the issues surrounding moving Trouba's contract, which made them unable to jump on free agents on July 1. This, coupled with the issue of Goodrow and the waivers situation, has shown many across the league that the Rangers organization does not intend to honor NMCs and NTCs, which is a strong blow against them. But they'll still be a good team, partially because of Shesty and Quick and partially because the Metro isn't exactly the best conference in the league. (Only the Rangers, Carolina, and New Jersey seem any good, and Carolina went through its own gutting of its entire second pair, but because they're the Canes they'll make Walker and Gostisbehere Norris candidates. The Isles are mid and didn't address it, the Flyers are stuck between trying for a wildcard and tanking, the Pens have no supporting cast, the Caps just acquired Dubois which is all I need to say about them really, and don't even talk about the Jackets...)

You also have the Vegas Golden Knights, who lost basically all of their UFAs and, due to their cap crunch, didn't gain much from it outside of Alex Holtz, who's a project forward. The Pacific, however, is weak as balls. (Calgary and San Jose will be bad; Anaheim, Seattle, and LA will be mid; Vancouver will be pretty good; Edmonton will be very good.) Simply based off goaltending and defense, as well as very good center depth, Vegas should still be okay enough to make the playoffs, and we all know the famous Vegas Trade can happen too, which always makes it interesting. (In the Pacific, Calgary as well is probably going to take a massive step back. Everyone worth a damn was put out for a fire sale. I'd fully expect them to be in the Hagens sweepstakes. And Seattle's a mess...)

Another team that's gonna have problems is the Boston Bruins. Not that they'll be bad. We know they'll never truly suck. But they've got question marks floating around their lineup, from Korpisalo and Swayman (one was statistically a bottom five goalie in the league last year and the other isn't under contract right now; the point of shedding Ullmark's cap hit was to have a cheap backup like Bussi and not a major question mark with a large cap hit for a backup) to Zadorov and Lindholm (arguably both overpaid and both expected to be top line players; those contracts will not age well) to Marchand (he's not getting any younger and who knows how much he's got left in the tank, especially since this is his contract year). There are going to be some major growing pains. I would not be surprised if they start slow, fire Montgomery, and then still end up as the second seed in the Atlantic.

From the Central, I'm gonna pick the St Louis Blues. They signed Ryan Suter in the year of our Lord Stanley 2024. And took on two cap dumps in Radek Faksa and Mathieu Joseph. That's all I need to say.

Y'know what. Let me just do Way Too Early Predictions again.

This is how I see it. (Atlantic, Central, Metro, Pacific)

Draft lottery: CBJ, CGY, CHI, MTL, SJS

Hockey purgatory: ANA, BUF, OTT, PHI, PIT, SEA, STL, WSH

Wildcard tossups: DET, LAK, MIN, NYI, TBL, UTA, WPG

Playoff teams: BOS, CAR, COL, DAL, EDM, FLA, NJD, NSH, NYR, TOR, VAN, VGK

I would not be surprised if both WCs in the East go to Atlantic teams and both WCs in the West go to Central teams. At the same time, I'm having a really hard time seeing any bona fide Cup contender. Last year, from literally last July, the Panthers seemed to be head-and-shoulders THE team to beat. This year, there's nobody like that, at least to me. Everyone has some question marks.

"But Edmonton - " Edmonton is in cap hell, still having to resign Broberg and Holloway and already being over the cap. Plus, Skinner is not that good. Plus, Ekholm and Bouchard can't carry the defense. Plus, McDavid and Draisaitl can't carry the offense. Give me a break.

But yeah. Sorry for the delay here! I hope this answers your question - let me know if you have any other questions or follow-ups :)

[sokkastyles]

I think the best ending would be for Ozai to die and Azula lose her fire bending. Idk all the details of how that would happen but like imagine Azula trying to live without her bending it would be so interesting. Ozai is too much of a generic villain.

You already know my side in the "should Ozai have been killed" debate but it's less about me thinking Ozai actually needed to die and more about the lack of story and character development in the ending we got. Disappearing into a prison forever is just fine. People have made good cases for the political problems that causes and the comics address that, as well as the emotional fallout for Zuko, but I'd be willing to suspend belief if the show provided me with some satisfying reasons to accept Ozai being alive at the end of the show.

Azula having to deal with the loss of her bending is an interesting au. I don't think she should have it taken away but I have been thinking of a possible au where she loses it akin to Zuko temporarily losing his, and having to find inner peace with herself to get it back.

We know that Azula is dangerous even without her bending, which we see when she is chi-blocked in the comics as well as when you take into account how manipulative she is, so taking her bending away on the grounds that it makes her less dangerous doesn't really work, but I would like to see her have to go on an emotional journey akin to what Zuko had to do, if only because so much of her personality is tied up in her bending.

I'm less inclined to believe that Azula needs to lose her bending, though, so much as I think she needs to learn that her bending doesn't make her better than others. So much of Azula's belief in the superiority of her bending is reliant on colonialism when it comes to the other elements, classism when it comes to benders of her own nation, and her belief that she's a better bender than her brother comes from a narrative of abuse. Not to mention how it allows her to abuse her nonbender friends. Why are we still assuming that this narrative is correct?

I'm not saying that Azula isn't a skilled bender, but it wouldn't surprise me if, once Azula no longer has the shield of being princess of the Fire Nation and Ozai's golden child, she finds out that she actually isn't the bestest bender in the world.

Imagine Azula in her travels meeting some random common firebender who ends up beating her in combat. Azula is of course outraged by this all "don't you know who I am????" This feral firebender girl is like "princess WHO? Never heard of you," and then kicks Azula's ass. This is the beginning of a beautiful enemies to friends arc where Azula ends up learning more about her firebending than she ever thought while learning about the lower classes in her own nation, as well as the lies her father made her believe.

[lagt-duck]

I think that when discussing canon in cartoons some fans really really just want all the angst

And if you try to point out that hey it doesn't really make sense to consider canon oke of those fanon interpretations

Said people Will jump on you

Lemme explain

Cartoons like any other media, show us what it needs for the plot

Like if you specify the sexuality of your character in a piece of media

It's because the A, B or even Sub plot will address it.

If your rugged hero is said to be hetero (or bi), it's because he has a "not like other girls" love interest in an action movie

It's the rule of the Chekhov's gun.

If you have an element in a story

That element is needed for something, so when I say that me personally

Cannot see the fire nation in a avatar as homophobic, it's because structurally it doesn't make that much sense. And before anyone rants me about how "it makes absolute sense because in the real world-" and i need you all to remember we are discussing a fictional world where we are never shown that the evil regime personally targets it's citizens. A thing that never happens in real world regimes.

The reason why I cannot see the fire nation as homophobic it's because it never shows ANY sign of bigotry beside racism.

And again if it's not there doesn't mean it HAS to be because it makes sense.

The Fire nation is shown to not have even a lick of the sexism of the water tribes, and also guys. Can we stop treating the fact that katara lost to pakku as her demolishing the patriarchy? Because we don't see ANY other female bender after she gets accepted

She wasn't fighting for all the women

She was fighting for herself

And that's

FINE

Because it's a cartoon show from the early 2000s

It's a show that already does a great job

Is it flawless? No, but no product is

Also a slightly less important thing

People take aang principles as the full truth on the Air nomads

And the philosophy is true

I fully believe that was his people believes

But you cannot tell me he would be able to rebuild the structure of it

Would you have been able to retell your entire culture when you were in middle school?

This is less a problem because most people seem to share some parts of this idea

Anyway the fire nation to me is not homophobic and before anyone comes after me with "but the show runners told us that"

1) they specified under sozin. Meaning that could have changed

2) it doesn't matter to the story, so virtually is an empty statement

Anyway thank you for coming to my rant about why some fans need to stop painting the fire nation as canonically brutal in their own country when the show goes out of his way to show that while they are the "bad side" what's important in avatar is being A GOOD PERSON not "being on the right side".

[bellatrixobsessed1]

Skin & Scale (Part 4)

An old man punches a woman in the face. Her brother slugs him back. The apple that they had been bickering over bounces to the floor and rolls to the feet of a street child. A whole swarm of them flock to it and become a tangle of limbs and cussing. Caldara City is in disarray and the burning retribution hasn’t even begun.

Azula massages her temples. “This is why you should have let me do the talking, Zuzu!” She drums her fingers upon the table. “The whole city is in a state of panic because you don’t know how to choose your words.”

“I–”

“The dragons won’t even have to lift a claw at this rate. It’s embarrassing.” 

“Look, I’ve never handled a situation like this. The Fire Nation has always been…”

“Untouchable?” Azula quirks a brow. “So was Ba Sing Se, but it got breeched. An admirable job if I must say.”

“Admirable…” Sokka grumbles folding his arms across his chest. 

“I’m am pleased to know that you agree.” Azula smiles. 

“I was being sarcastic.” 

“Noted and promptly disregarded.” Azula shrugs. She turns her attention back to Zuko. “Luckily for you, you have someone who knows the right words to choose and the correct order to put them in.” 

“If you want to try addressing them, be my guest. They won’t listen to reason!” 

“Because ‘reason’ has been delivered with a shaky voice and an uncertain tone of voice. You need to be firm and decisive but with a careful measure of sympathy and understanding. They’re afraid, which is a useful tool in some instances but not this one.” 

“So you offering a demonstration?” Toph leans back in her chair. 

“Indeed, I am. So pay attention, Zuzu. You’ll want to learn this for next time.” 

“Next time!?”

“There will be a next time. You didn’t think that being Fire Lord would be an easy thing, did you?” Zuko opens his mouth to respond but Azula continues. “Did you know that most Fire Lords die in their late 40’s. There are a few exceptions, of course, but a lot of them…” She pauses. “Stress tends to do that.” She suspects that she probably won’t make it past 39. 

Given her body’s refusal to bloom, she might not make it to her twenties but for an entirely different, less literal reason. 

“Call a meeting with the general public and I will reassure them that they have nothing to worry about.”

“But they do have something to worry about.” Sokka counters. “You said it yourself, we need to prepare ourselves for a dragon related doom.” 

“Yes, but they don’t need to know that.”

“Yeah, I guess that panic doesn’t really help.” He mutters. 

“Avatar, you will make the speech with me. My words will be enough, but it would add an extra layer of comfort to have the Avatar emphasize as much.” She stops her pacing to stand directly in front of him. “If you can stomach a fib.”

“I’ve like before.” He confesses. “Asks Katara, it was a whole thing. I don’t mind lying for the greater good as long as we tell the truth in the end.”

“I have more important things to attend but you can feel free to tell the truth after we sort our dragon problems out.”

Katara bristles at this. “Since when are we letting her run things?”

“Since Zuzu lost control.” 

Admittedly it kind of stings to still be treated like the enemy even when she is trying to help. Perhaps it is the price of her disposition. 

“It’s fine.” Zuko mutters. “She can have this one.”

She is almost certain that she will have more than just one. Zuzu doesn’t have the personality type to do some of the things that it takes. At least this time the thing is a simple public speech. At least this time she won’t have to get her hands dirty. 

Sometimes she gets tired of doing the hard and gritty work. 

Maybe one day she will say no, tell them to handle their own problems. 

But, then, some of their problems are entertaining. She supposes that they can’t use her if she doesn’t mind the tasks. She supposes that she does volunteer to do a good majority of it. She just wonders how they would react if she stopped being so helpful.

.oOo.

“I think that we did good today.” Aang smiles. “Lychee juice?”

Azula considers before taking the cup. “It wasn’t terribly hard, Avatar. Fire Nationals are rationally driven people…most of the time. Sometimes they just need a stern reminder to get it together. A touch of intimidation will do the trick.” She shrugs.

“You don’t have to do that, you know?” Sokka shrugs.

“Do what?” 

“The whole intimidation thing. Not with us anyways. We know the truth.” 

“The truth.” Azula furrows her brows. 

“You’re actually kind of a nice person.”

Azula sniffs and takes a drink. “Hardly.”

“Let her keep her walls up, Sokka.” Toph puffs a strand of hair out of her face. “She’ll get tired of it eventually.”

“You didn’t.” Katara quirks a brow. 

“I did so!” Toph declares. “Sort of…”

Azula rolls her eyes. “I don’t know what I did to give you any indication that I care about any of you. I just want to ensure that I get to be Fire Lord every now and again.”

“That’s why you always join us for dinner?” Sokka points out. 

“I don’t know if you are aware, but having meals is a basic human need and it would be quite inconvenient to have to rush through my meals before you get here or wait until afterwards.”

“If you say so.” Sokka helps himself to a dinner platter. 

“You work pretty well with Aang.” Zuko points out. 

“Aang annoys me the least.” She glances over at him as he silently picks away at his cabbage stew. “He knows when to keep quiet and not push matters. All of you are dull minded and deplorable and…”

“That’s why you can’t get enough of us and enjoy helping us so much?” Sokka slings an arm over her shoulder. 

She rolls her eyes. “I help you all because I need something to do. It is that simple. And in this case I am rather fond of not getting clawed apart by a vengeful dragon or two. We have a common enemy.”

“If you didn’t like me, I would be on fire right now.” He taps his fingers against her arm. 

“That’s a splendid idea.”

“But I had to suggest it first.” He quirks a brow. 

“You’re very smug right now, Sokka.”

“Smug and still not on fire. Admit it, you’re warming up to us.” 

From across the table, Toph snickers. Toph and Zuko both. Her cheeks warm ever so delicately. “How many sticks of jerky will it take to keep you from talking?”

“How many do you have?”

Azula shoves the whole platter of some thirty jerky sticks at him. His eyes light up. “You can’t say that you hate me and then give me thirty jerky sticks! That’s just contradictory!” 

She clears her throat. “We’ve wasted enough time, having to deal with mild hysteria. Tomorrow we should set out to look for signs of dragon habitation on the off chance that it is still alive. And I would like to emphasize just how minimal that chance of finding signs of life are…”

“You can’t just change the subject like that!” Sokka protests through a mouthful of jerky, just distinguishable enough for her to understand and just indistinguishable for her to pretend to not have.

“Even so, I suppose that the smallest leads are worth looking into just to tie off any loose ends. There are several caves and volcanoes worth looking into. They are all located on the more remote Fire Islands. With the bison they are only a day’s trip away each, two days at worst.”

“And if we can’t find any signs of dragon life, then what?” Katara asks. 

“We can just hand Azula over to them. Close enough right?” Sokka chuckles. 

She folds her arms across her chest. “Hilarious.”

[blakebow]

The last anon made me question my shipping taste since I dislike Bumblebee for the same reason I dislike Zutara.

Both ships would have one of the character's date another character that reminds them of there trauma.

Adam = Yang

Fire nation = Zuko

So can someone explain the difference please because I thought Katanng was like Blacksun with the goofy boy with the staff having a crush on a girl with emotional trauma ?

hi anon! it seems you're confused, so let me see if i can help with clearing up that misunderstanding.

Zutara is not at all like Bumbleby.

Because yes, while there was initial trauma with Zuko and Katara and they hated each other until the end of book 2, through book 3, their bond strengthened and they got closer, working past the issues they had with each other's pasts and came to see each other just as they were as themselves. (if that makes sense?) Katara didn't see Zuko as her trauma anymore.

after their talk in the caves where they both addressed why they didn't get along and both revealed that they shared a common trauma, the loss of their mothers and the pain that caused them, they came to an understanding of each other's struggle.

Katara had a profoundly more supportive relationship with Zuko than Aang in the last season as Aang was forceful with his affection, showed jealousy of others (past) interests in Katara, including Zuko. and tried to talk her out of getting closure for her mother's murder, which Zuko all fully understood and went with her to hunt down Yon Rha so Katara could face it head on. Aang continually kept trying to convince her to let it go and forgive him, which upset Katara because he refused to listen to how she was feeling. not to mention the proof of this is shown in how Katara willingly intervenes in Zuko's duel with Azula and fights to bring her down to protect him after Zuko defended her in turn.

Also, in argument against Kataang, their relationship isn't framed in the most positive light in LOK. as Kya and Bumi, two of Aang and Katara's children complain that Aang played favorites with Tenzin who was (at the time) their only airbender child and essentially ignored them. they're so bitter of this fact that they bring it up over 70 years later after Aang's passing. that's not good and makes Katara look out of character because the original Katara from ATLA would never have allowed Aang to so blatantly shirk his duties as a parent and ignore both of his other kids because they weren't as special as Tenzin.

Where in RWBY, Yang shows 0 interest in Blake's problems being a faunus, which is a scrutinized minority in verse, saying and I quote "oh it must be hard to be a faunus", while watching Cardin Yanking on Velvet's ears not even five feet away and not noticing how uncomfortable that makes Blake to watch (before any of her teammates knew she was a faunus.)

It's Yang's blatant disregard of Blake's identity that Blake runs away and finds comradery with Sun Wukong, who's a fellow faunus and fully gets all of what she's going through.

it isnt's until vol 3 that problems actually really arise with bumbleby, until Mercury tricks everyone into thinking that Yang punched him unprovoked during the vytal festival tournament, which triggers Blake and makes her remember Adam, where Blake brings this up to Yang and actually makes her cry by saying she doesn't trust her, this is swept under the rug and NEVER addressed again.

after volume 3, where Yang gets maimed by Adam and Blake runs away in fear, Yang refuses to even understand why Blake ran, when Weiss confronts her in vol 5 she says "what if i needed her here FOR ME?" basically, not acknowledging the fact that Blake was terrified for her life and thought she would be better off being the only one killed if Adam chose to come after her. after they reunite, Yang is even hesitant to forgive Blake, and there's a canon song confirming as much that Yang no longer trusts her not to abandon her again.

Vol 6 is total shit because it's where Bees was forced and started to degrade the quality of both characters, having Yang be the one to face Adam with Blake (rather than having the original plan of Blake and Sun taking him down at Haven) and from vol 7-9 onwards it's a dumpster fire i don't even want to bother getting into except for the shitty, forced one sided confession in vol 9, which was hamfisted in the middle of other far more important plot developments.

i think the diference between the two is that Zutara actually works through their trauma and grows from it to form a stronger bond that makes both characters better people.

where Bumbleby does not, and instead does the opposite. Yang's anger issues and possessiveness of Blake increases the closer they get, making her more of a trigger and more reminiscent of Adam instead of less, making Blake into a worse character by stripping her independence and making her completely co-dependent on Yang.

in conclusion: Ship Zutara, not Kataang and Black Sun, not Bumbleby.

[unfortunately-obsessed]

I see were you are coming from, but again I can't agree with all you said.

(Also, I hope this conversation is not upsetting you in any form, and I'm sorry if I misunderstanding you in any way)

First: I agree with you on "nobody can guarantee that they won't hold their power over your head". But when you start to consider any amount of power = dubious consent, you're falling into an abusive dynamic again

Nobody can guarantee you either that your partner won't physically beat you one day. Anybody can be a victim of domestic abuse.

Every relationship is a risk. Every relationship needs communication and commitment, including platonic ones. If we lived in a world were you could never risk having those type of connections, then you never would be able to befriend your boss either.

Another example: what if you marry a person that has an apartment and you go live there? They're the legal owner. Does It mean you will tip-toe around them, do your best to never disagree with them? Wills this apartment never be your home? No. You're bound to disagree on something, it doesn't mean is the end of the relationship and that you're immediately homeless

My point is, you would need to keep everybody at arm's length. You couldn't marry a person if they had an apartment, because it means that they can kick you out. You couldn't befriend your boss because it meant they could fire you. Or have a friend that comes from a higher financial background, because what if they use their influence to blacklist you from society? Does it mean you couldn't befriend a doctor ever, because what if you need their treatment one day and they refuse because you made them upset?

Even emotionally, even if it doesn't include physical abuse or "tangible" power (e.g academic). You get into a relationship knowing that the person will have the power to wound you. What if they cheat? If you like them, it'll hurt you. That's a consequence that you can't circumvent

But as a society we don't consider relationships dangerous. On the contrary, we need human connection to survive. None of those obstacles prevents us from loving

I genuinely don't understand what you meant with "those [relationships] are dangerous to normalize" at all

Because it would mean Jean x Scott is dangerous too! So many times Scott was the X-Men leader. It means he could purposefully cut her out of the missions. He held power over her

How about Storm and T'challa? He's the king of one of the richest nations in the world

How about Storm and Wolverine? I would say Daken is pretty close in age to Ororo (who's about the same age as Rogue)

Or Rogue and Wolverine? Wide age difference

Rogue and Gambit? She could kill him before he could touch a card

Emma and Scott? She's filthy rich!

Are all of those ships problematic too?

I mean. I don't know if I'm getting my point across? I don't know how to address your "he was an authority figure in her life = the ship is problematic" besides comparing it to other ships

Rogue is not a damsel in distress. She could have walked away at any moment – she did so twice (only in 97', but on comics? She ends things with Magneto more than I like to think about as a shipper)

Yes, she was living on his citadel/home. But really? She's Mystique's daughter. On Uncanny X-Men, she survived the Savage Land alone for an undisclosed period of time. And on 97' she had mutates around that she could easily absorb. What if she absorbed Vertigo?? Magneto is not immune to that!

So... Yeah. She was relying on him, but if Erik kicked her out? I doubt that would be a problem for her.

On Legacy, she punched him because he insulted her (they talked it out later). So if he did the same on 97'? I doubt she would stay if it became toxic

And again, she didn't! She left! She noticed from her own volition that they couldn't nurse a healthy relationship, and left! And Erik couldn't (and didn't want) to stop her! Later on Genosha? Same thing

It doesn't make them problematic. It doesn't mean he was grooming her (again, I hate using this word to describe a fictional situation, especially one that doesn't even fit the term). It doesn't mean they were abusive or toxic or that there was dubious consent.

All it means is they were well written! Because they both have their own problems and obstacles and it affects their relationship

And about Wanda and Pietro's age being close to Rogue: I have nothing to say besides what I already went through. This happens in real life and it doesn't make the relationship between Erik and Rogue immediately toxic/abusive.

Especially because this is fiction. I mean, TAS is really wonky with ages, Wanda and Pietro should be forty each if we were realistic about the timeline but they clearly aren't

Uhh yeah 👍 that's what I had to say. We have different worldviews and sorry for any typo

Consider: saying Rogueneto is a power imbalance and thus is toxic is a disservice to Rogue because she is powerful, both in actual superpower and in personality

Here's me, more of a rant than anything:

Rogue's not a damsel in distress. Even if she can't absorb Erik directly – as it the case 97' but not most of other universe, including comics and animations (ie. Watxm or Evo) – Rogue can still keep up by absorbing literally everyone around. She's never helpless

Age gaps aren't intrinsically unbalanced. The term "power imbalance" can't inherently refer to an age gap because it means one of them can dominate decisions in a relationship because they have financial power, influence and resourcefulness.

Wouldn't Jean (as Phoenix) x Scott also be a power imbalanced and thus toxic if we applied the same rules to them because Phoenix is a million years older and also much more powerful? Or Storm x Wolverine, since Ororo is Rogue's age?

Not to say that X-Men 97' is the only place where they had a relationship close to teacher/student. He wasn't even her mentor. Yes, she was living on the citadel by an undisclosed amount of time, but let's remember that if she wanted to leave he wouldn't be able to stop her. And, if you consider a (legal adults) teacher/student to be inherently predatory... I can't do anything about that. Just never get close to colleges.

Saying that Erik took advantage of her, that this was grooming or abuse is horrible– please don't use real world problems to express your discontent with a fictional couple that doesn't even fit the term you're trying to use

And saying that Magneto was manipulative by offering a crown to her... He was asking. Rogue could step back– she did. Would you prefer he didn't and left her for Genosha? (Like she was going to do to Remy). Because, to me, Erik considering her fit to rule is romantic

[failingradish]

Hello, I have just started following your blog and I really admire your work. I always wondered what all the past avatars had looked like since very few made an appearance in the series. Anyway, I just came across your team avatar drawings for when after Korra had died and was reincarnated. I always tried looking up what people's ideas were for the future avatar and your designs for this certain era just stood out to me. Now many people have come up with names for their Earthbender avatar oc, though I don't recall seeing a name for your avatar on this blog and would like to know more about him. He's so interesting and I love how he is accompanied by some type of goblin spirit? The animal familiars that you have made for each avatar are just breathtaking. I think you are a very creative artist and if you don't mind I'd like to know more about the next avatar after Korra if you'd share some information with me. I'm sorry if I bothered you and if someone has already asked you this question, though I am just really interested in your artwork and want to know more about your characters.

Hi thanks so much for your compliment- but WOW that's a long question, but I'll try to answer it anyway- 💕

Truth be told I haven't put that much thought into the single characters- because that's not really what I'm most interested in. But I have some specific concepts in mind that I'd like to see partially addressed by a next avatar series-/ how I would do it with my 5 braincells.

1. It's not the avatar after Korra, but the one another generation down (Water-> Earth -> FIRE)

I want to see a world that NEVER found the next avatar and let the next one after figure out what happened to the one b4 them- or even a couple of fake avatars be declared by diffrent nations, since as unbiased as the avatar may be being the nation with the avatar has some advantages especially in a time of political peace trying to enforce soft power onto other nations.

(Similar to what the Chinese government is trying to do- capturing the penchen lama, so they can declare their own Dalai Lama once Tenzin Gyatso dies :( )

2. The mystery of whether the main character is actually the avatar (did the Earth Avatar actually die already or are they just another fake)

Ideally this would mean that 1- this wouldn't take place too long after korra's death (like 30-40 years) and 2- the mc can't bend any element yet (or just 1 element but that's somehow more boring to me)

They could be running away from the people claiming they're the avatar, trying to find the real one- traveling the world is an important part of avatar and that would be the perfect reason.

3. Growing independence movements.

I really want to see diffrent cultures within the earth kingdom and fire nation strive for independence now that they don't need the protection of a bigger state anymore and nobody (idealy) wants to look like the big, bad oppressor.

Similar to what happened in europe post ww2

4. The current avatars main mission always seems to be fixing something the previous avatar failed at-

Like how Kuruk fixed Yangchens mistake with neglecting the spirit world,

Kyoshi uuuh not sure- did she fail at anything?

Aang ended the war that Roku failed to prevent,

Korra brought back the air nation after Aang couldn't

And Korra ofc lost the connection with all past their lives.

I actually don't want them to change that- stick with it.

But I want the mc to go on a journey to discover his predecessor in the first season (build the problem for the final season //point 5) and then a treasure hunt of sorts to discover all avatars that were "forgotten"- avatars from cultures like the ones from point 3- tying these points together and discovering the avatars and (more importantly) their peoples identity and how to move forward.

Let them write it all down too, so they won't be forgotten again.

5. Every avatar story needs a main antagonist, so that's where I put something completely wild but stick with me-

The Earth avatar that was never found was born into an underground kingdom that was founded long ago by powerful earth benders(/or spirits idk make it a legend) that in an effort to shield their people from the dangers of the surface submerged their city, isolating it from the rest of the world for hundreds or thousands of years. Over time they created an elaborate tunnel system- building more and more cities and creating an empire.

The new avatar would realize who they are at some point and seek to understand this world they supposedly were meant to protect. The avatar would then attempt to befriend the next in line to the throne in order to attempt to convince them to let their empire rejoin the surface world. A suggestion that would eventually end up getting them killed by their friend (you could insert a tragic lesbian couple here ❤)

So the new mc finds out eventually what happened but not who killed them- keep that part hidden for the final show down.

6. Spirit gaang member

I want them to do something interesting with the joined worlds concept- so give them a spirit that aids in the groups journey- my version is a time based spirit that gave the mc a old fashioned clock that'll help 'unlock' the stories of the past avatars. Could also be a mount. Pls don't let it talk. If they make a comedic relief spirit i might oof myself tho.

Also also. Kill them.

7. So that's about it ofc, my only other request is pls bring back proper character development for the side characters. Like mentally bolin and mako stayed the same throughout korra...

??? Idk storytelling really isn't my strong suit

(Not question related)

FOR FULL DISCLOSURE! I didn't completely draw all of the backgrounds for this ask- for a lot of them I used Photos to bring across what I mean better.

(And also this is an answer for a Tumblr question and I already spent way too much time on this I'm sorry djbdkdbdzk)

All of the images  I used can be found HERE- other apps I used were Prequel, CSP, Paint Tool SAI and Photoscape.

Thank you for reading this far.

[zuko-always-lies]

I feel like one or the key issues of Zuko’s redemption arc is that they try to make him more like iroh.

It bothers me since it really only shifted from Zuko blindly following his father to blindly following his uncle. There isnt much personal growth that occurs, rather a shift in loyalty.

I think the problem comes from trying to make Zuko have a similar redemption to iroh. Which is why he never address his past behaviour nor he really has empathy on how his actions affected others as Iroh didnt need to confront that either for his redemption.

Plus the fundamental problem Zuko had was not that he failed to see how war could be bad ( though that was another flaw) but rather the Agni Kai taught hum that compassion was a weakness. Zuko straighr up was told to ignore his own morality which left him confised and clinging to his fathers.

Of course Zuko would steal from Song and destroy Kyoshi village. Compassion is weakness and Zuko cannot be weak.

Its strange to me that iroh never once tries addressing this. Its really odd to me iroh never even notices these connections as i dont remember his ever telling Zuko he didnt deserve to get burned (at least, not before Zuko changed sides).

Thats not to say its an excuse for what Zuko’s done, its just me being fustrated it was never expanded upon as the core root of his problems. Once Zuko regained his sense of morality for himself (not just following whoever he thought was right) then he could have grown immensly and a lot of flaws would be addressed.

I dknt know, it just boyhers me immensly that Zuko’s arc was more framed as ‘Iroh is always right, be loyal to your uncle and do what he says’ (because thats what fundamnetally changed when he switched sides) instead of ‘Your father was wrong and always has been. You are not weak becasue of compassion. Now stand up for your people just like you did in thaf first agni kai.’

Zuko as a character feels stiffled by Iroh, since he kept getting told what to do instead of the lesson kicking his ass and forcing him tk understand kn a deeper level.

Sorry for the long ramble. I like Zuko as a character (hes a jerk who can be kind, its just underneath alll that trauma) and His redemption trying ti make him more like iroh kinda does hum a diservice to me.

Zuko's redemption arc was so much more centered on Iroh, Zuko's guilt about Iroh, and Iroh's plans for Zuko than it was on Zuko developing compassion for ordinary Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom people that it's not even funny, and that's a shame.

[writing-with-olive]

Hi! Mind helping me with a writing question? I'm trying to do a redemption arc, but this guy is really bad. I've yet to find something/someone he's not willing to sacrifice to get what he wants. The main problem is that he knows he's evil and LIKES it because its fun and gets him what he wants-- freedom and power. How do I make him WANT to be better and to get the audience to believe he deserves redemption? I've already taken him out of his position of power-- which he wants back. What next?

Hey anon!

So really quick, I wanna address a possible misconception:

Redemption is about realizing something was wrong and making the active decision to become better, and then following through. There is no such thing as deserving redemption, because that implies that if you screw up badly enough, you're not allowed to feel remorse or take steps to fix what you can. This may sound super nitpicky, but it changes a lot of the framing. It's not that suddenly the good guys like the redemption arc character - in fact you can have a redeemed character that the good guys Don't Trust, it's that the redemption character starts to realize they've messed up.

(more details below the cut including what makes a redemption arc, an example, and addressing specifics from your ask)

Alrighty, so what makes a redemption arc?

Although it manifests externally, it's nearly all internal conflict. This is because redemption is a conscious choice. You can put the character through all kinds of hell, but if their mindset doesn't change, they won't be able to redeem themself. (it looks like you know this, but I figured I'd say it anyway)

So we gotta figure out how to change their mindset. As I see it, there's two phases to this - the part where they refuse to acknowledge that they're changing, and will dismiss any notion of it, and the part where they consider that maybe changing won't be so bad. Also, another important element of mindset to consider is that there's often two layers of wants for a character; what they think they want, and the real driving factor underneath. It's that surface level thing that's gonna change, not the underlying one. That's how you make the change natural.

Let's look at Zuko from Avatar the Last Airbender as an example (um... spoilers). For the bulk of the show, he's hell-bent on capturing the avatar because that's his ticket home, which is important to him because while he's in exile, he has no honor. He's considered a villain because he's in direct hostile opposition to the main characters. His arc is realizing that his honor is not predicated on returning home. He starts out in full villain mode for season one (though it's important to note that his misconceptions about the world are laid out - the audience can understand both the surface-level and driving force behind his actions), but by season two he seems to slowly be moving towards the "hey maybe I don't need to go home to the Fire Nation to be honorable - I can be happy here" camp. But when he has a clear opportunity to complete his mission and go to the Fire Nation with honor, he slams back to villainy at Mach 4 during the season 2 finale. This is important because if characters go smoothly from villain to hero it often doesn't feel really earned. It's only once he's back that he realizes that while he's regained his father's favor and is in the Fire Nation, and he's being told how honorable it is, it doesn't feel honorable to him. The surface level was satisfied but not the driving force. It's only after this realization that he's able to join the side of the heroes - and he's got to work for it. He has to undo as much of the damage he's caused as he can, all with the very real possibility that he will never be accepted by any of the good guys.

So.... to answer some of your points more directly:

1) he's evil and he knows it.

This, if you play it well, can actually help you. He's already got an understanding of morality, and even if he doesn't care right now about whether or not he's hurting anyone, he understands that it is technically bad. That means once he cares, he's got a framework to go off of.

2) it's fun and gets him freedom and power.

So when I look at this, here's my thought process. First, I feel like the aspect of "it's fun" is more of the byproduct - he enjoys the freedom and power he feels while being evil, which overrides any kind of moral squeamishness nonsense. The need to do evil is the surface level want of your character.

The driving force is the need to feel powerful and free. A big part of his redemption arc is going to be his definitions of what it means to be these things changing. Maybe power at the beginning means that people fear him, but it changes to mean people trust him. Maybe freedom at the beginning means no one tells him what to do, whereas at the end it means not having to look over his shoulder in case someone's coming to backstab him. I don't know if this is the direction you want to take your character, but the key idea here is that he doesn't have to change what he thinks he wants, it's what he means by those things that shifts. That's why it makes such a difference when they finally get what they thought they were after, only to realize that it doesn't satisfy their desire the way they thought it would.

3) how to make him want to get better?

At first, he won't. You can dangle that bait of his powerful position in front of him, and that's all he's going to see. That's good.

While he's unable to reach that position, however, maybe his normal way of doing things don't work. Maybe he tries to hurt someone and they get away with no problem and look down on this character (that lack of power would probably sting). Maybe he has to make a temporary ally to get out of a near-death situation, even if he fully intends to backstab the ally the first chance he gets.

Basically, you're throwing challenges at him where he has to try out different ways of doing things - this is what's going to sloooowwwly start to change his outlook on the world. Of course, he's probably not going to admit it, but the solutions he's forced to take show him the merits of whatever world outlook he's going to have in the end after he's committed to redemption.

Then, when it looks like he might be starting to turn good.... give him what he thinks he wants. And let it go horribly wrong.

He'll probably start off all triumphant, but quickly realize that it's not the end goal he thought he wanted. What he thinks of as power or freedom have shifted, and this position he's just regained doesn't really accommodate those new wants.

This is when he does a little bit of introspection and decides to fight like hell to redeem himself - what will get him to the new definitions of power and freedom? That's what his new goal is.

so hopefully this is useful. if you haven't seen avatar i highly recommend watching it - it's amazing :D

happy writing!

[itsnothingofinterest]

Something I think worth mentioning about villain redemptions is, in addition to people just liking the characters; one reason the villain fans want redemptions for the League is that their redemptions would almost certainly signify the addressing & remedy of serous systemic issues that have affected many characters and aspects of the series, and have been felt since the first line of the series.

It’s no secret that the world of HeroAca is plagued with systemic issues rooted in inequality, corruption, and the gross mishandling of quirks among other things. These have affected both villains like Shigaraki, Dabi, Toga, & Spinner, and hero students like Izuku, Shoto, Shinsou, & Shoji. However while the students’ character focus is, on average, about how to overcome these hurdles to become good heroes and what kind of heroes that makes them; the villains’ character focus is more on what to actually do about the systemic issues they were never able to just overcome, and so are attempting to tackle full force. In other words, the handling of the villains is seemingly going to be directly tied and inversely correlated to the handling of those systemic issues and, in turn, just how many problems are really going to be solved in the aftermath and not rear their heads again..

The Problems

It’s like this: people often like to compare BNHA to Avatar: The Last Airbender (probably because of Todoroki’s resemblance to Zuko, even though his position is more like a less Azula-ish Azula, but that’s beside the point), and have even made comparisons between Shigaraki & Dabi and Ozai. Now that’s more than a bit weird, but we’re gonna role with that to explain something.

See, the thing about Ozai is, he was in a position of power; a position from which he and the last 2 Fire Lords had effectively caused all of the problems. And the reason they did that was basically just because they were arrogant; they thought the Fire Nation was better than everywhere else. Meanwhile; the Gaang had Zuko, the next in line to the throne who had been enlightened by his travels about the values of the other nations & how wrong the Fire Nation’s way of doing things was. The Gaang new if they defeat Ozai & Azula, he gets that position of power and will cease all the problems arising from it. For them, that part of the plan was simple: defeat the big bad = no more problems.

For Shigaraki & the League, it’s no where near that easy. See, while they have acquired power in various forms; they’re really just average joes picked off the street. Naturally occurring misanthropes produced by societal failures like oppression, abuse, inequality, prejudice, corruption, and other such topics. Heck, Jin’s name means ‘humanity’; both as in compassion, but also as in a face in the crowd (or rather the entire crowd). And Shigaraki even once compared them all to maggots crawling out of the trash piles the heroes swept under the rug. And you aren’t gonna accomplish much just squashing the maggots; they’re just gonna keep coming faster & faster as the piles get bigger & bigger, and even without a League we’d just see more Kaminos, Fukuokas, Daikas, & Jakus. The thing they need to address is the trash piles, the issues in society, in order to actually stop the problems.

The Easy-Yet-Hard Solutions

“Well, okay,” you might say, “but can’t those societal problems get addressed and the villains still get killed or jailed for life, as are the consequence for their actions?” Well technically yes, that is possible, but the problem is it would be a very, very, very hard sell to the audience.

For one; not many on the heroes’ side see these things as problems. To most of them, the biggest problem in society is that it needs more All Might. Not to say there’s no one in the country who thinks society needs to change...but there is the slight hurdle that a good number of them joined the PLF, and are presumably headed off to Death Row for association with Shigaraki. (You may think that’s an extreme assumption, but Kurogiri got worse for very similar crimes.) This doesn’t exactly discount our heroes tackling all those root issues we discussed; but, well, it’s a bit hard to believe the heroes might try to change society in accordance with the wishes of people we assume they’ll just think of as enemies until the end. (Especially regarding the necessary changes that might inconvenience the heroes.)

What’s more, the villains most directly represent the victims of those issues, so it’s hard to separate their treatment from the handling of those issues. There’s just some dissonance in the idea he heroes would be like “In our pursuit of justice, we shall ensure no hero has the power to abuse their family any more, and shall hold heroes accountable for any breaches of the law they commit. But as a separate matter, screw Dabi. Life in prison for him and he’s (debatably) lucky we’re not killing him. Endeavor of course shall walk free because he’s trying to change, and he’s gone through so much, and he means so much to us.” Like I said, that’s a hard sell. It gives off the impression that the heroes are just doing what they’ve always been doing, which conflicts with the idea that they’re then going to change things.

The Hard-Yet-Easy Solutions

Conversely, if the villains get redeemed and end up working with the heroes; societal restructuring to remedy those systemic root causes of villainy are all but guaranteed. They know better than most what problems there are in society, seem to have thought pretty hard on how to fix them or what alternative systems could be installed, and have no reason to be coy about any of that. The heroes, conversely, tend to have the faith in humanity to think they can better the world without needing any acts of terrorism, and the societal sway to then actually do it. Or at least will acquire that sway, if we’re assuming the UA students are gonna end up doing most of the leg work on this.

In short, each side has about half of what’s really needed to guarantee a societal remedy that’ll ensure we don’t get any more naturally occurring Shigarakis, Dabis, & Togas; and in turn that we don’t end up right back where we are now eventually.

It’s not quite accurate to say they need to work together on this; both sides could accomplish this restructuring on their own. But with the heroes, it’s highly questionable if they’d even think to change things if they get the chance, and how how hard they’d really try if they did; and with the villains we know they’d put their all into it, but it would incur massive costs in human life. If the villains get redeemed though, and the two sides work together on this? It’s very easy to believe the presence of one side would entirely eliminate the issues in the other’s methods. The best solution is the one that comes from both sides working together; and that’s probably why Izuku & Shigaraki’s quirks each ended up being named after half the phrase “All for one and one for all”.

Conclusion

Look. I get it. The League are terrorists, there’s no getting around that, and at times it can feel like the villains fans ignore this. But that truth is that it’s more complicated than that.

Shigaraki’s inner circle are simultaneously some of the victims most in need of saving & some of the greatest threats the HeroAca-verse has ever faced. They are, in several ways, the greatest conflict a hero could ever face, and how a hero would handle them would define not only the type of hero they are but also the quality of hero they are. I’m just saying; a high quality hero that’d save them, the real Plus Ultra-type, would probably be the kind best suited to taking care of those metaphorical garbage piles and reach that “no more problems” state you usually want your stories to end in.

Does that really mean they need to get away with everything they’ve done? Honestly, got me buddy. Like I said, from a hero’s perspective, their situation is complicated; so if you’re looking for the perfect solution for how a hero should handle them, it’ll probably be pretty complicated in itself. To me personally, that stuff seems like details. What I’m most prioritizing is if we’ll get the best resolution to the root issues as possible.

[snafu-maniac1]

Zuko deserved better

So I rewatched Avatar the Last Airbender recently and let me tell you......

I wanna murder several people.

Looking back on this entire series I’ve come to notice something. I watched the show just like any other audience member and only saw the good and the bad characters. One of these prime examples is Zuko. Zuko’s redemption arc has been praised as one of the greatest in history, succeeding where others have failed. But watching it all again......it wasn’t redemption. Not to me personally.

Before everyone gets angry and defensive at me, please finish reading my post and hear what I have to say. I do not wish to start any fandom wars or discredit or disrespect anyone’s opinion, this is just my personal psychological analysis of Zuko’s character....Sigh and let me give you a warning.

It’s gonna be LONG. 

So if you’re not interested or don’t want to hear it or don’t feel like reading something this long that’s fine, you can go ahead and just click away and ignore this post.

Starting from book 2. 

Now you may be wondering why I’m starting here and not from the start of Zuko’s childhood but I first want to address the one question everyone had been wondering since the series 2 finale. What would have happened if Zuko hadn’t sided with Azula?

My answer is.....that wouldn’t have happened.

Everyone’s been focusing on the entire arc where Zuko was struggling to accept that the war was wrong and how Iroh was trying to get through to him when he tried to capture Appa and afterwards, but here’s something everyone tends to ignore.

Why didn’t Iroh try sooner?

Why didn’t he try to stop Zuko before Aang came, before he’d gotten so deep and desperate to the point that he continuously committed heinous acts to capture the Avatar? People would justify it by saying Iroh wanted Zuko to realize the wrongs of his father and Nation by himself to shape him into his own person. But that is in no way the appropriate way to approach a physically, psychologically and mentally unstable and abused child. Zuko was a thirteen year old boy when he was burned and banished. This is where we go into his childhood. Zuko was raised like any other Fire Nation citizen. As we’ve seen in book 3 and in the Pirate comic book, The Fire Nation citizens were led to believe that the other Nations were ‘savages’ and ‘barbarians’. It villainizes the Fire Nation even more. The very fact that they would spread heinous lies against other people when they themselves were responsible for the war that ruined so many lives. But when you realize, what Sozin and the other Fire Lords did was a solid battle tactic. Making the opposing side out to be these horrendous monsters. Making lies or accentuating every one of their worst traits to dehumanize their enemies so that the people would not have any qualms about fighting them. All of the Fire Nation schools were taught these lies. And Zuko was no exception.

Zuko was a member of the Royal family. And from what was shown in the Avatar series, the Royal family was isolated from the rest of Fire Nation society. Zuko had no way of knowing what the other Nations were really like, no way of knowing the truth about the war and no one had bothered to explain it to him. The one person that could have, did NOT. And yet people had expected him to just automatically know that he was being lied to and that his people were the villains. Zuko’s only social exposure was with Fire Lord Azulon, Fire Lord Ozai, Dragon Of The West General and Crown Prince Iroh, his cousin Prince Lu Ten, his mother Princess Ursa and his younger sister Princess Azula and her friends Mai and Ty Lee. All of whom believed in the Fire Nation propaganda and all of whom had no problem in participating in the war and making jokes about burning Ba Sing Se to the ground. Zuko was under scrutiny and aggression from Ozai. Ozai was Zuko’s ‘handler’, his ‘groomer’. He groomed Zuko into a certain type of submissive and obedient behavior. Zuko was not allowed to show any type of emotion otherwise he would suffer severe repercussions. Ozai and Azula taunted Zuko for having a sense of compassion and with how he was ostracized in a war loving family, he began to believe his behavior and way of thinking was unusual. It was like Azula said to Mai, “Your mother had certain expectations of you and when you strayed from them you were shot down.” In Zuko’s case, the expectations he strayed from resulted in severe punishment. Ozai was willing to permanently disfigure and traumatize Zuko when he was a thirteen year old boy. It’s not unusual to think that his punishments towards Zuko would sometimes very likely be physical and many people even write alternate universes of the Avatar series where Ozai was even more abusive than he already was. He was a manipulative man who brainwashed his daughter into being his perfect, obedient little slave and manipulated his son into questioning his own sense of reality. He would tell him that Azula was born lucky and he was lucky to be born, cementing Azula’s view of herself of receiving everything she wanted and turning her personality toxic while he made Zuko feel inferior and faulty. If there was something wrong with him, his father would tell him and he needed to fix it. But he never could. He strayed towards his mother, who like Iroh, abandoned Azula because of Ozai’s manipulation and did nothing to help her like they ‘helped’ Zuko.

When Zuko was thirteen he wanted to ‘prove’ himself to his father by attending one of his war meetings. Zuko very likely only wished to do what his father wanted because by then, Iroh had abandoned him when he left after the Siege of Ba Sing Se, his mother disappeared and his grandfather and cousin were both dead. The only ones he had left of his family were his father and sister who both abused him and he only wished for their approval and their affection. Humans need mutual affection. Children who do not receive affection from their parents, tend to not take that type of neglect well. Because people need affection to properly function. Our parents love us from when we are young and that emotional connection is something very important to every human being’s mental state. However, Zuko’s only source of affection, his mother, was taken away from him. Azula herself, had no source of affection. Not from her mother, who thought she was demented from her father’s brainwashing, nor from her brother who feared her, nor from her father who used her as a tool. Returning to the day of the Agni Kai, Zuko wished to be of use to his father, he craved his affection because that is what the abuser does. They make you believe they are the only ones who can validate you and if you do not abide by their rules or follow their orders then you mean nothing. Zuko for the most part from what I could see in the flashback, held his promise and did not speak. But when he refused to back down when his people were in danger, Ozai was not pleased. This is because he is an abuser. He is Zuko’s ‘handler’ and when someone who is abusing another person witnesses this type of behavior, they have a feeling of loss of control. They desire control, they crave it, over the abusee especially. So when Zuko showed empathy towards the Fire Nation citizens and did not do as Ozai wished, he decided to ‘rectify’ that. In the most BRUTAL way possible. An Agni Kai. A public spectacle where he would establish dominance over his son, over his pawn and he would make a show of it. He would show everyone that HE was the one in control and NO ONE could defy him. When Zuko refused to fight Ozai, because of his love for his father, Ozai only saw that as a weakness. Ozai is a psychotic man. The fact that he did not have any problem in burning his son so cruelly shows that he does not have any sense of morals. Going back to Zuko, a thirteen year old child at the time, he had just been punished for disobedience, for straying from his father’s expectations, in the worst way possible.

Zuko did what many people would say is the right thing to do. He tried to defend his people from a cruel man intent on sending them to their deaths. But in doing so, he had defied his father and was punished for it. He was punished....for trying to HELP people. His life was essentially DESTROYED and he was thrown out of his home...for trying to help people. For showing empathy towards others. He was punished in the worst way possible for defying his father. His entire perception of right and wrong was thrown out of balance. He was taught that the war was right and that the Fire Lord, his father, was all knowing. And his mother tried to teach him kindness and her lessons of kindness got him punished. The amount of physical and mental damage he had sustained from such a punishment would in some cases be irreversible. Iroh was right there with Zuko and he did nothing. I CAN understand why he did not step in during the Agni Kai. He had been gone from the Fire Nation, his brother had taken the throne and he could have very well himself been punished severely for intervening. However, why did he allow Zuko to continue to believe he was the one at fault? Everyone of us has seen Zhao, has seen the way he treated Zuko during his banishment. Zuko very likely spent those entire two years before Aang’s arrival, being subjected to that type of behavior from everyone around him. All of them blamed him, all of them very likely said that he’d deserved what had happened to him. No one was on his side. He ended up turning aggressive and cruel towards others, because that was the way his father behaved and it was his empathy towards others that got him punished in the first place. He said in The Storm ‘the safety of the crew doesn’t matter’, just like the general that called the 41st division ‘fresh meat’. It was easier for Zuko to lash out at others and be aggressive than to let them see his vulnerabilities and hurt him for them again. It was the same with Song and her mother. Ozai tried to force him to be cruel, he tried to groom him the same way he did Azula. They dehumanized the other Nations and Zuko behaved the exact same way he was expected to. ‘Their compassion would cost them’. It was exactly the way his father wanted him to be. It was what Iroh did not wish for him, and yet despite claiming he thought of Zuko as a son, he did not in any way try to convince Zuko to give up his quest during the two years he had been searching for something that at the time was believed did not exist. The only instance we were shown of Iroh saying anything against his search, and even that is a stretch, was in the Western Air Temple episode where Zuko has a flashback of Iroh telling him that ‘destiny was a funny thing’ when Zuko said it was his destiny to capture the Avatar. Iroh had time to run the White Lotus, an antiwar organization for two YEARS maybe even longer and he did not think of taking two MINUTES to talk to Zuko, to ease him into realizing the wrongs of the war. Okay, yes he could have passed it off as character growth. But how do you expect a person, surrounded by people telling him he was at fault, he had no choice, either obey or never come back, to realize something like that? How do you expect an abuse victim to accept help all by themselves when their abuser forces them to depend on them? Did Iroh take him to some Earth Kingdom villages to see that they aren’t the vicious savages the Fire Nation portrays them to be? Did he take Zuko to the Southern Water Tribe to see the damage done to them at the hands of his own country? No. Instead he acted like an oblivious old man who had no interest other than Pai Sho and speaking proverbs that Zuko could not hope to understand.

Two years Zuko spent looking and looking and he turned desperate to the point that he was willing to do anything to go home. And then The Avatar finally returned. And then the people that Zuko was raised to perceive as brutal savages continued to stand in his way. And did Iroh intervene? No. He still did nothing. He allowed Zuko to continue his pursuit and turn into the worst possible version of himself. People say that Zuko should own up to the consequences of his actions. And he should. But would he have done those actions had Iroh stopped him earlier? Would he have done any of the things he did when the only remaining adult figure in his life had told him otherwise? Would he have listened to Iroh? The answer is yes. He was willing to do what Ozai had expected of him so why would he not listen to Iroh with time and patience instead of waiting till the last possible moment to do so? Children don’t automatically know right from wrong from the moment of their birth. They are taught by their parents, by the adults in their lives and Zuko had Ozai as his parental influence. And Iroh knew that. He knew the type of man his brother was and he did not try to overwrite his brother’s abuse to help his nephew until Zuko was already on the path of no return. When they became refugees Iroh still did nothing until they got to Ba Sing Se and until Zuko, again in an act of desperation, tried to capture Appa. That was when he FINALLY decided to step in. Three years since Zuko’s banishment, sixteen years of his father’s influence and abuse and he decides the very moment his nephew is close to the brink of insanity is the perfect opportunity to DESTROY his entire world view. He had worked day in and day out for two years before Aang appeared, only for his uncle, someone he TRUSTED, to tell him it was all for NOTHING. Two years of TORTURING himself. A year of fighting against his Nation’s enemies and SUDDENLY he’s being told it was all for nothing. When Iroh and Zuko reunited, Iroh told him he found his way again ‘on his own’ like how Zuko told Ozai he had to learn everything ‘on his own’. And they were both right. Zuko had no one to help him. He had to suffer through so much on his own, without anyone’s help and they’re SURPRISED he acted the way he did. When everything came to ahead in Ba Sing Se with Katara, people thought ‘Oh Zuko has changed he’s going to help Katara.’ And when he did not they HATED him for it. 

The reason for this is because Katara was the ‘good guy’ and Zuko was the ‘bad guy’. Black and white. Katara and Zuko shared a moment of understanding from both losing their mothers and Katara offered to heal his scar and he chose to side with Azula and both Katara and the viewers saw this as a betrayal on Zuko’s part. This assumption however is completely unjustified and unfounded. Everyone sees Zuko and the Fire Nation as the bad guys. The villains of the story. But Katara and the Water Tribes and Earth Kingdom were the bad guys in the Fire Nation’s eyes. Katara was the ‘savage’ standing in the way of Zuko going home. The Avatar was his home’s greatest ENEMY and THREAT. Had the situation been reversed and Katara had to choose between Zuko and the Water Tribe and her brother and father, people would have supported her choice because they were the good guys. Zuko’s people were the bad guys so it had to be the wrong decision and a betrayal to Katara and Iroh. But Zuko was an unstable, traumatized child who did not wish to believe his people were bad, who did not want to fight his home after he spent so long trying to capture Aang, his home’s greatest THREAT and ENEMY. Katara hated Zuko because he represented everything that the Fire Nation did to her family. And Zuko hated her because she was the ‘savage’ keeping him from his one way home. To Zuko, Katara was the bad guy. And looking back at their moment of sympathy where Katara said he betrayed her trust I can only ask one thing....how could Zuko have known that Katara wasn’t trying to trick him? Now, the viewers would automatically respond ‘Katara’s not like that! She wouldn’t do that!’ but the fact is, we the viewers KNOW Katara. We know she’s not that type of person because we got to know her through out the series. Zuko does NOT know her. To Zuko, she’s just another faceless enemy out to KILL his father. He chose Azula’s side because he could not accept what Iroh was saying to him because why hadn’t Iroh said so sooner? He did not want to join Aang’s side cause this was the AVATAR. The one out to KILL his FATHER and take down his HOME. When Zuko returned, he was conflicted about what he had done because he had begun to see how wrong his father and sister’s behavior and The Fire Nation’s war truly was. And Iroh cemented that further by proclaiming Zuko’s struggle was because of Roku and Sozin’s conflict when that was clearly not the case. Zuko was groomed and brainwashed by the Fire Nation propaganda like every other citizen but he was not dispelled from that belief by anyone. No one tried to make him question that belief. Iroh did not try to ‘help Zuko’ until the very last moment in Ba Sing Se. People believe Zuko betrayed Iroh because that’s how it’s supposed to be when Zuko was the ‘bad guy’ and Iroh was the ‘caring’ Uncle and ‘voice of reason’. And yet he did not think to ‘reason’ with Zuko before this entire mess even started. He did not in any way try to disrupt Zuko’s view of the other Nations or his father. In my opinion, IROH was the one who betrayed ZUKO. Iroh KNEW the entire time that what Zuko was doing was wrong. Zuko was a child who was not allowed to think for himself and Iroh KNEW Zuko was brainwashed by the exact same propaganda he himself had believed before he lost his son. If Iroh, who had believed in the Fire Nation for so many years, was unable to realize the wrongs of the war until his ADULTHOOD when he lost his son, how in the world did he expect a 13 year old child to do so? And Zuko became even more unstable and then he chose the Fire Nation.

When he realized it was wrong and went to join team Avatar, they were reasonably mistrusting.

Zuko’s redemption arc from a simple perspective, from team Avatar’s perspective was very well done. Team Avatar did not know what Zuko had been through. To them he was just another Fire Nation monster who had hurt them. To the audience, he was just another Fire Nation monster who had hurt the good guys. No one would think that deep into a fictional character’s perspective or psychological and mental state. No one would think past the ‘good guy’ and the ‘bad guy’. But one thing I cannot justify is Katara’s accusation of betrayal towards Zuko. As we have mentioned, Zuko and Katara were enemies who had a mutual hatred towards each other before his ‘redemption’. They had one single moment of shared empathy and understanding and that is NOT the basis for earned trust. What would Katara have done had she been in Zuko’s shoes? Fighting her enemies, fighting people she sees as nothing more than monsters and she has to choose between her long time enemy and her sibling and her home and her family. If she was in that position, she would choose Sokka and Hakoda and Aang and the Water Tribe over Zuko in a heartbeat because those are her FAMILY members and her FRIENDS and people would justify her because she’s the ‘good guy’. The hero. But Zuko is the villain so his actions automatically AREN’T justifiable. I understand Katara’s mistrust towards Zuko because of their history and because again, she doesn’t know anything about him or what he went through. But she cannot expect him to just automatically leave behind everything he’s ever known and ever believed in because of one single moment of understanding. Zuko should have done everything he could to make it up to the group because he owed it to them and they again, did not know any of his reasons for hunting them. But Zuko does not deserve to be labeled simply as ‘a bad guy turned good’ when he was NEVER a bad guy to begin with. When he was never even mentally stable enough to make that type of decision for himself. In today’s day and age Zuko and Azula would have BOTH ended up in a mental institution. And after all of the things he went through, Zuko was the one who ended up going back to Iroh and apologizing when Iroh was the one who abandoned him and then Zuko at 16 years old ended up as the leader of a nearly fallen apart country. He had to suffer through insomnia, assassination attempts and mental instability and abandonment. Iroh left to Ba Sing Se and only made two appearances in a total of SIX comic books after the end of the War and one of those was entirely brief. So while Iroh gets to enjoy the rest of his life selling tea, Zuko has to suffer the consequences for what his family did. He was also abandoned by Mai which brings me to another point.

Zuko’s toxic relationships.

Some people say they dislike Mai because she is emotionally abusive towards Zuko. It never occurred to me before but looking at it now, I have to say that I agree. In the comics after book 2 had ended it was shown that Azula used Mai’s childhood crush on Zuko to manipulate him into going back to the Fire Nation with her. And Mai.....I don’t even know how to get started on the entire mess that is their relationship. Mai is a person who does not like emotion. She doesn’t like to express herself and immediately shuts down anything even close to emotion. The same applies to Zuko. Zuko is a very emotionally unstable and insecure person. And instead of reassuring and calming him, Mai immediately cuts him off whenever he loses a handle of his emotions and just flat out ends their relationship on the spot. She gives Zuko no explanation, just gets angry at him and then all of a sudden when Zuko can’t take anymore and explodes she suddenly says she cares about him. Their relationship is toxic. Mai demeans his problems and things that trouble him. Quote “I just asked if you were cold, I didn’t ask for your whole life story.” when Zuko was nervous about going back home. She demeans his guilt towards Iroh and tries to make him feel better by ordering servants around. And then in the Boiling Rock episode she attacks him for his letter which is reasonable on her part, but there is the problem that despite being Zuko’s girlfriend, up until that point she was Azula’s subordinate first and foremost and she could have tried to let Azula know. Still was a shitty way of ending their relationship, I’m not gonna act like it wasn’t but I still wanted to put that perspective out there just for thought. Not to mention how she ended things in the comic books. The trust issue I understand. But I don’t understand how ONE single mistake would lead to her just immediately ending things instead of at least TRYING to work it out. She could have listened to him and seen why he was so upset and scared of messing up that he went to Ozai of all people for help. She did not stick by him when he needed her and that was what forever ruined their relationship for me. 

In simple terms, Zuko was a bad guy who became a good guy and redeemed himself.

In psychological terms, Zuko was an abuse victim who was brainwashed since his childhood, blamed for it and made into a scapegoat while his sister ended up in a mental institution because of her father’s influence and because the same people who ‘helped’ Zuko didn’t think she deserved it too.

So from what I’ve seen while rewatching the series....

Zuko never needed redeeming. Zuko needed help.

And he didn’t get it.