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david-talks-sw · 2 years

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An argument I hear from time to time is the following:

"I don't care that this novel is considered Legends, if it was canon when George Lucas was in charge of Lucasfilm, it's still canon to me now. Whatever George says is what counts, I don't care what Disney says."

Putting the Expanded Universe's Star Wars and George Lucas' Star Wars in the same basket. And that's, uh... inaccurate.

So without further ado, let's explore:

George Lucas’ involvement in the Expanded Universe

Early years of the EU...

When the first bit of EU content came out in the form of the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Lucas was too busy working on the films, so Alan Dean Foster wrote it by himself (which explains why Luke and Leia's relationship plays out romantically).

After the movies came out, when new material was going to be created, George told Lucas Licensing and other authors that the Prequel era was off-limits to write about, because he might tell that story one day.

Beyond that, they could go to town and write sequels, for instance. After all, part of why Star Wars was created was to let people's imagination run wild and George was happy to let other artists play in the sandbox he created.

That said, things were very clear from the get-go.

These weren't his stories.

The Thrawn books, Dark Empire, all this material was explicitly just Tom Veitch and Timothy Zahn and whoever else's creation. Not George's, who was described by Lucas Licensing's Lucy Autrey Wilson as "not very involved".

The most he did was answers "OK/Not OK" questionnaires about what the EU writers could or couldn't write.

Telling Yoda's backstory? Not OK.

Telling Han's backstory, between the Prequel and Ep. 4? OK.

Having someone wear Vader's suit after his death? Not OK.

The Emperor returning in a clone body? OK.

So that's it. That was his involvement in the 90s.

Him saying "don't write something set during this/that period".

"OK/Not OK" questionnaires.

It's also worth mentioning he didn't approve of Mara Jade, Luke's wife in the EU. In his mind, "Jedi don't marry".

Rather, the character herself wasn't an issue... until she married Luke. When Timothy Zahn asked for Luke and Mara to be married or engaged, back in 1993, Lucasfilm initially vetoed the idea.

According to Brian Jay Jones (author of "A Life", George Lucas' biography), in 1995 George convened a 'Star Wars Summit' wherein he gathered licensees and international agents to Skywalker Ranch to reinforce "the need for him to maintain quality control, especially in the areas of publishing, where some characters—such as Luke Skywalker, who’d been given a love interest in a fiery smuggler named Mara Jade—were living lives far beyond the ones he had written for them in the original trilogy".

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During the Prequels...

George Lucas was writing and directing three movies with large themes, shot almost back-to-back, commuting between Australia and California. That's hard enough as it is.

Also, in the 90s, most movies were still shot on film. During the making of Phantom Menace, Lucas shot parts of the film by combining prototype digital Sony cameras and using them in combination with videotapes, rather than shooting on film.

For Attack of the Clones, George worked with Panavision and Sony to develop fully digital cameras, which eventually became the standard.

As if that wasn't enough, by making the Prequels, Lucas and ILM were also creating fully-digitized worlds (Coruscant, Geonosis) and characters (Jar Jar, Yoda) and laying the groundwork for the CGI technology that has now become essential for today's blockbusters.

Having established all this...

Do you really think he had the time or the patience to read through a bunch of novels and guidebooks?!

Simply put: George Lucas was too busy revolutionizing cinema to be involved in the development of the EU.

So if you ask George who Tahl or Vitiate are, or what the Stark Hyperspace War or a vapor manifold are, if you ask him to recite you the Sith Code... he'll grumble and say "heck if I know".

He outright admitted that fans know more Star Wars lore than him.

Because SOMEBODY ELSE wrote that stuff.

And he let them do it because:

It made money. A lot of money, especially after TPM came out. Money that could fund his next films. You don't mess with licensing. Hell, it's why he was so cool with there being all those Star Wars parodies.

He didn't see those stories as canon anyway, so it couldn't hurt. He saw them as a separate universe, an alternate timeline wherein the films happened ALONG with all these other tales.

So associating the EU content with Lucas is unreasonable. He was too busy, so he just let Howard Roffman, Lucy Autrey Wilson, Sue Rostoni and Lucas Licensing do their thing and crank out new stories and transmedia content for the fans.

It was a one-way relationship. The licensing parallel universe needed to have some internal consistency AND adhere to what Lucas established in the new films movies (which was difficult because they weren't involved in the production process), but he didn't need to be in line or consistent with anything they established.

Now, George did set some guidelines/boundaries and there were obviously do's and don'ts. But once those boundaries were set and the brief was established, the authors had a lot of freedom and, like, 99% of their interaction was with their editors from the respective publishing houses (Scholastic, Del Rey, Dark Horse) and the folks at Lucas Licensing.

George was only really brought in to sign off on, like, some of the major plot points only once in a blue moon. Stuff like:

"Let's make a Maul novel". George would go "fine, just keep him mysterious."

"What species should Plagueis be?" George: "he could be a Muun, here's concept art."

Nothing more than that. Again: the Expanded Universe was other storyteller's interpretation of what Lucas had created.

Sometimes, it was spot on and it aligned with George's vision.

Other times, this additional lore was created by writers who didn't know what he was doing with the Prequels, so they were in the dark regarding certain plot points.

And then you have the authors who absolutely disagreed with George's vision of the Prequels, or of Star Wars, in general, but wanted to engage with the material nonetheless.

Which is why, whilst sometimes the EU fixed some plot-holes, sometimes the EU had inconsistencies.

Inconsistencies such as Ki-Adi Mundi being a Knight on the Council, who is married and has kids (when the Jedi being prohibited from marrying is a major plot point in the Prequels)...

… or the Jedi being essentially superhuman (when one of the narrative reasons Qui-Gon is killed is to show that the Jedi are mortals, not supermen)…

... or other stuff like Mace having a blue lightsaber for a period (because who the hell knew purple was an option?!) or some Jedi having red lightsabers, or Sith Lords being able to become ghosts after death, when that's a feat you can only achieve by being selfless.

It's also why you get conflicting definitions of what the Jedi call "attachment" or conflicting narratives trying to reframe midi-chlorians as a cold, intentionally-flawed way of seeing the Force (when they're meant to be a beautiful metaphor for symbiosis and how the Force works).

And it makes sense that some of this stuff wouldn't track, considering how Lucas stated multiple times that he didn't have anything to do with it, that it was a separate universe from his own...

Safe to say that if George had any involvement in the EU, it was so minimal that he, himself, didn't count it as "involvement".

Additional sources:

Later years of the EU...

After the Prequels were over and done with, Lucas created The Clone Wars with Dave Filoni. At first, he'd just suggest a few storylines, but he quickly got VERY involved in the whole process. Far more involved than he ever was with EU content.

And y'know... Dave Filoni is a massive Star Wars fan and an avid EU reader. So, from time to time, Filoni would bring up EU material for Lucas to consider during the story conferences, and they'd look at what was out there together.

But it's important to note that George's stance toward the EU didn't change and became a rule for everyone on the writing staff: the EU content was nothing more than a pool of "fun what-if ideas" that they could draw inspiration from.

If they could, they'd try to not mess with continuity... but if the story called for it, they could retcon anything without batting an eye. Because it wasn't canon to them.

It's why author Karen Traviss quit working with Lucasfilm after the Mandalorians were retconned into pacifists in The Clone Wars.

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The only things that were truly canon were:

George Lucas' own word.

The movies.

Previously established The Clone Wars lore.

And that's it.

Everything else was somebody's else's concern. Not George's.

Sources:

This way of seeing the EU continued all the way to the time shortly before George sold the company to Disney as his drafts for the Sequels featured:

no Jacen, Jaina or Anakin Solo (Han and Leia's kids from the EU),

a still-alive Chewbacca (who died, later in the EU),

no "New Jedi Order".

Every version of George's Sequels ignored the EU.

Which would explain why the EU reboot was planned in the summer of 2012 (when Lucas was in charge)!

I'll repeat: the EU reboot was planned months BEFORE George Lucas sold the company to Disney.

Because of course it was! It's a natural result of 30 years' worth of content that's so intermeshed that it would stop future artists - namely George himself - from creating anything else.

Sources:

Exceptions to the rule:

1. Comics (kinda)

He did read the comics. Or at least, he gave them a glance.

Aside from the fact that he grew up reading comics, understand that George Lucas is a visual artist, first and foremost.

That's what he's about and that's what he loves, that's what speaks to him. There's a reason his upcoming Museum of Narrative Art will feature comic panels and pages of all kind.

During pre-production on Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, Lucas had the art team draw concept art before a script had ever been written so he'd have ideas for set-pieces.

Later on, J.W. Rinzler pitched him the idea of adapting his early drafts for Star Wars into comic form. Lucas' initial reaction was going "hell no". Rinzler had concept art made…

… and George took one look and was on board.

So it's not a stretch to assume that a book telling a story through beautiful drawings would catch his attention more than a novel.

Case in point: He knew who Quinlan Vos was and was enamored with the character. He knew Aayla enough to put her in Attack of the Clones after seeing a cover of Republic by John Forster featuring her (below, left).

(although, it's worth pointing out that he doesn't call her out by name a single time, in the director's commentary of the Attack of the Clones, she's just the "Twi'Lek Jedi" and her inclusion was done mainly to add more diversity to the Jedi fighting in the arena)

Over a decade later, when the comic Star Wars #7 came out in 2015, Lucasfilm acquired artist Simone Bianchi's original 20 pages and cover art for George, so he could feature it in his the Museum of Narrative Art:

So at the very least, he looked at the comics and admired the visuals.

Whether he actually read the comics in detail or just skimmed through most of them because he liked the pretty pictures (likelier, imo) is an entirely different matter.

Sources:

2. Video-Games (kinda)

Lucas would periodically check in on the status of LucasArts games, lending creative input and advice.

Sometimes, his advice ranged from "weird" to "he's gotta be fucking with us, right?"

Apparently, he advised the team developing Star Wars: The Force Unleashed that they dub Starkiller "Darth Insanius" or "Darth Icky".

And you know what? I have no trouble believing it.

Firstly because if you're going by the idea that he gave no fucks about the EU, then of course he'll come up with "meh" names. But also, this is the same guy who created "Winkie" in 2012/2013, the character who'd go on to be named "Rey".

He also told the team creating Star Wars: 1313 that he wanted a fresh face as the main character, then only weeks before the game was announced he went "let's make it Boba Fett".

Finally... the cancelled Darth Maul game by Red Fly.

Codenamed “Damage”, then “Battle of the Sith Lords”. Think Batman: Arkham City meets Star Wars.

Red Fly pitched it as a coming of age story where we see Maul be kidnapped, tortured, eventually joining the Dark Side, and ending in TPM. Then they had interactions with LucasArts and found out Maul survived his fight with Obi-Wan.

The game went through several iterations, partly because the people at Red Fly were kept in the dark about the developments in The Clone Wars (Season 4 wasn't out yet), and even when some tidbits came out and they knew characters like Savage Oppress and Death Watch would be included, they didn't get more details.

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Whatever. They do their best to make something from what they're told. Then they have a meeting with George. As this GameInformer article explains:

“A friendly George Lucas entered the room and was eager to hear the pitch from Red Fly’s creatives. “Before they could finish their spiel, Lucas cut them off, stood up, walked over to [two Sideshow Collectibles statues of Darth Maul and Darth Talon], rotated them to be facing the same direction, pushed them together, and said ‘They’re friends!’” adds the source. “He wanted these characters to be friends, and to play off of each other. […] The problem with the idea of Maul and Talon teaming up for a buddy cop-like experience was that they were separated by over 170 years […] When this vast time divide was brought up to Lucas’ attention, he brushed off the notion of it not working, and said that it could instead be a descendant of Darth Maul or a clone of him.”

So now the game is about a descendant of Maul, guided by his ancestor and fighting a redesigned Darth Krayt, etc?

The game was eventually cancelled when George sold the company.

Worth pointing out that this was circa 2010/2011... around the time that George started working on his Sequels, according to Jett Lucas. And we know that the treatment for the Sequels that Lucas presented to Bob Iger featured old man Maul and Darth Talon as the villains of the trilogy... take from that what you will.

3. The Prequel novelizations (kinda)

They were all given a copy of Lucas' screenplay.

While most of their work was with Sue Rostoni, Lucy Autrey Wilson, and Howard Roffman on the Lucasfilm team (like some of the other authors), Terry Brooks, R.A. Salvatore and Matthew Stover all spent a bit of time with George before writing their respective novels.

George told Terry Brooks to write some additional material for Anakin Skywalker because there wasn't enough of that in the movie. He was shown rushes from the set, they "opened the safe" for him. When Terry had further questions re: midi-chlorians and the history of the Sith, George goes on a 30-minute monologue about all that.

R.A. Salvatore had a 45-minute interview with him that turned into a 3-hour chat. He was able to go back to the Ranch a few times during the writing process, and one of those times George chatted with him and his wife during lunch. He was shown various cuts of the film and concept art.

Matthew Stover and George talked for a whole afternoon (I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume he was also shown the other stuff like some cuts/deleted scenes, concept art, etc etc).

Was there a line-edit of the ROTS novel from Lucas? Regarding the Revenge of the Sith novelization, some people bring up the idea that George Lucas did a line-edit on the book because Stover wrote this statement on theforce.net:

That said...

Stover, also stated that Lucas told him to write whatever he wanted as long as it was good,

he also said he didn't actually see Lucas type the edits,

an anonymous Del Rey editor stated on theforce.net that the notion that George edited the novel himself is "extremely incorrect".

There's enough "reasonable doubt" for the argument to be made that the Revenge of the Sith novelization was edited the same way as any other Star Wars novel, rather than by George himself.

The fact remains, though, that it was a novel written by someone who understood the source material, as it was explained to him in detail by George Lucas himself (a luxury many SW authors never got).

Lucas' backstory for the Sith in the TPM novel: If Pablo Hidalgo is to be believed, the backstory of the Sith, as detailed in the Phantom Menace novelization, came from Lucas.

(Obviously, I'd allow for the very likely possibility that there was some embellishment by Terry Brooks)

20 years later, however, it seems George decided to stick to the idea that there was no war between the Jedi and the Sith.

Final thought:

A lot of people will insist that George was involved in spite of all the above-posted evidence. Saying stuff like:

"But [X person] said that it was canon..."

Sometimes, they’ll link you to this whole website collecting quotes of other people saying "the EU was canon" (never George Lucas except for, like, one/two quotes where he acknowledges the existence of Sequel books which MUST mean he saw them as canon, right?) and...

On the one hand... of course they'll all vaguely say he's "involved" and tip-toe around the subject; it's technically true and, again, they're trying to make money. It's a business, folks.

On the other... yeah? Duh. Of course it was canon to Lucas Licensing and the authors who wrote for the EU. But it wasn't canon to George. And I just gave you a whole bunch of quotes directly from him and/or the same people quoted on that website, all confirming that he didn't see them as canon and he wasn't involved (or barely was).

Other times, we're straight-up approaching "burying head in the sand/lalalala I'm not listening!" levels of justifications.

Like, we just talked about the Sith's origins, right?

I remember a while ago, this Star Wars YouTuber was reviewing this quote from Lucas, in The Star Wars Archives: 1999-1995:

The YouTuber's reaction the second after reading the quote is saying:

"And of course, what George is referring to, here, is the Battle of Ruusan and the Brotherhood of Darkness using the Thought Bomb created by Lord Khan to kill the Jedi Lord Hoth and…"

My guy! You read a whole excerpt that started with "there was never a war between the Jedi and the Sith" and the words "Ruusan" or "Thought Bomb" never being mentioned once in the passage (or in the TPM novelization)... and concluded that George was referring to the Jedi/Sith Battle of Ruusan? And all that other EU stuff?

See what I mean, folks?

Now, look, I grew up with these stories (heck, I grew up with these stories in three different languages). So I get it. I know they're awesome.

And, yes, there is a difference between the kind of content we used to get and the content we're getting now (for one, lightsabers used to be lightsabers, in video-games, not baseball bats).

But if you're trying to prop up the EU, the facts show that the "George Lucas signed off on them" authority argument isn't a valid one. Because he clearly wasn't very interested or involved in it.

And why would you want to use this authority argument, anyway?

You shouldn't need to say "this came from Lucas" to like those stories. They don't need to be George Lucas Approved™ to matter and to be validated as "worthy of appreciation". They're valid on their own, they're great stories. And if you like them better than the Sequels, go to town. I know I do.

The only thing you can't do (with a straight face, at least) is hold them up as "the True Lucas-Approved Canon™ as opposed to the Disney Trash" in a rant, because you'd be wrong and/or lying. Neither had Lucas' hand in them in any meaningful way.

Finally... I was devastated when the EU was officially made non-canon, in 2014. And for a few years, I saw the new Star Wars continuity through this lens:

"Any EU content is still canon unless it's directly retconned...!"

Trust me, when I say that only pain lies that way. Because that's not how a lot of Star Wars creators, including the Flanelled One himself, see it. The way they saw/see it is:

"Unless it's been shown in a movie or TCW... it's a legend, it might have happened."

This line of thought seems to be increasingly applied to the new Disney canon too, by the way. "If it's not shown on a screen, then it's probably canon yet also up for grabs to be retconned."

And the sooner you accept that this is how it's being treated, the sooner you accept that the EU was never canon to Lucas or Filoni...

... the less painful it'll be when, I dunno, you watch The Acolyte and it's nothing like the Darth Plagueis novel or Plagueis himself is absent, or he's there, but as an Ithorian instead of a Muun.

(note how I didn't use the word "painless")

#Lucas Canon & EU Canon & Disney Canon are all different things.#the only downside to this notion is that you can't use Lucas' name in conjunction with the EU to win a debate or rant about LF.#or use Lucas' name to validate a headcanon that came from the EU #Aside from being glad he got to create a universe that inspired so many artists and creators to let their imagination go wild #he barely gave a crap about what other writers did in a parallel universe that he didn't even see as canon.#and that's FINE #collection of quotes #89 quotes I think #this may be the longest or second post I've written yet #meta #sw meta #expanded universe #george lucas #lucas quotes #dave filoni #youtube #star wars #star wars analysis #TCW #star wars comics #star wars novels #lucasfilm #EU #Legends #star wars legends #sw legends #supplementary material #long post

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starplusfourletters · 8 months

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I read vision of the future (hand of thrawn book 2 aka Who Scams the Scammers)

(spoilers) and once again it turned into a liveblog, apologies

Hold up are we doing Warrior Cats? Is this Warrior Cats Planet??

What base is “arm around your waist to serve as a psychic translator conduit”

Omigod I WISH my Warrior Cat name were “Jaded of Mara”

Everything I know about Soontir Fel I learned from x wing but I would not have guessed his primary motivation to be "dirt"

@ luke and mara: the girls are talkingggggg

North Barris Spaceport has me twitching

Ghent not remembering who the president is and just assuming it’s probably Leia. I mean fair

What base is "holding hands to brace yourselves over a swarm of flesh eating insects"

So we’re finally asking why Mara ISN’T actually dark side and the answer is… shrug emoji?

Man Zahn really is stuck on “character bonding hike” as a device huh. But consider I eat that shit up

Oh No Lando is racist

LMAO at “so oblivious you need a child pterodactyl to tell you to just kiss already” to “besides I don’t want my life to be like spiderman three I hated that movie” to “kissing with dubious consent” ALL ON THE SAME PAGE like Zahn finally realized he really needed to get this show on the road

LMAO at Ghent getting a free pass from Pellaeon to hack the empire. Like you’re just going to get the thing you need and not steal all of our military and political secrets right? Riiiight? Even more LMAO at the fact that that would probably not even occur to Ghent

When everyone assumes they're the protagonist so finding this one macguffin is their job personally. Like guys I like the energy but maybe we've got enough different plans to do the same thing (the exception, hilariously, being Luke) (and Oh No it turns out Luke is the one to find the macguffin because You Have to Follow Your Heart and Let the MacGuffin Come to You. I eat that shit up also)

Mara’s just... So great.

Not to make everything about my blorbo but absolutely to make everything about my blorbo I do wonder to what extent Ahsoka’s characterization post-Rebels doesn’t click for me is because a lot of the more obvious directions for Oldsoka overlap with Mara, and the powers that be didn’t want to reinvent the Mara Jade wheel. Not to say they have similar characterization – Mara has terminal sam coded dean girl syndrome – but idk, in dynamic range maybe? Calling out bullshit, weaponizing her own abrasiveness, covering insecurity with humor, being Kind of a Lot with a side of trust issues at any given moment – there are modes Mara and Youngsoka share that didn’t pass to Oldsoka apparently. Idk possibly all this is just me wanting them to TALK

Establishing that you can do evil things for selfless reasons without necessarily being in any danger of falling to the dark side is... Philosophically interesting

We interrupt this tale of political espionage to bring you Jedi Relationship Counseling (spoiler alert: communication is key)

"That part of her life [Mara’s time with Palpatine] had died unmourned" I mean mourned a little bit. Mourned for at least a book and a half

I've been willing to suspend my disbelief on everything in this book until "both Luke and Mara forget that ysalamiri exist"

I will never not be a sucker for The Movements and Transferred Ownership of Emotionally Significant Weapons

Oh No thrawn made a second foundation

The Aing-Tii seem OP but whatever

Oh No the second foundation forgot to close the garage doors

(Re: The Jade’s Fire) I know Mara’s having a Moment, and I promise I’m taking it seriously, but when the warrior cat asked “What is it you want, Mara Jade” my WHOLE BRAIN responded with "I want Hermione Granger! And a rocket ship!"

Moranda has real Kevin from home alone energy and I'm living for it

Is it bad that I’m actually kinda happy the Imperials’ Bothawui shield plan worked? Like, they had a really interesting plan and I’m happy for them. They earned it

WAIT IS MORANDA DEAD FR?

What base is “full mind meld while you’re fighting for your lives”

Who would win: ~1.5 Jedi, 2 sentinel droids droidekas, or Artoo with a sauntering gun

If I had a nickel for every time this duology explicitly established Jedi can’t go completely without oxygen, even when in a trance, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot but which makes me feel like the Ahsoka show had a weirdly specific axe to grind with the source material

Luke’s proposal to Mara is Just. The. Funniest. Thing. That’s some Anakin-level cringe and the prequels aren’t even out yet. He truly is his father’s son.

I mean POV there’s this guy and for a couple years you want to kill him, and then you realize that’s more of a You Problem, so then you’re friendquaitances for a decade mostly because you don’t approve of the shit he’s getting into, and then you have one (1) honest conversation and get caught in a death trap and he’s like “so I think the next step for us is marriage”

LEIAAAAAA! Full Jedi Knight Leia is both terrifying and hot. I would run.

“So it is treason” – Some random guy

Lando needs to be on the New Republic payroll simply for being willing to speak to any of the other characters and also he needs a raise. This poor guy getting called on to command the entire New Republic fleet mid-battle and he’s like “I’ve been a civilian for 15 years and also I knew you would pull some horse piss like this steve”

Mara Jade, Imperial protege. Skills include: Identifying load-bearing walls. (Now all I want is Property Brothers: Sith Edition)

Mara please. Luke please. These absolute idiots. This is some pear scene shit. I hope nothing bad happens to them ever

The whole back half of this book has been an emotional rollercoaster for me specifically because I wanted Flim to be Thrawn FR soooooo baddddd. And now I’m sad. His name literally means scam don’t do this to me Zahn

I’ve been amused by all the Star Wars universe idioms but I gotta take a moment to specifically showcase “burned your sky-arches.” Karrde is a delight to have in class

Having an independent intelligence agency that’s supposed to work for both the New Republic and the Empire seems absolutely unhinged but go off I guess

When the New Republic and Empire sign peace accords and Luke can’t even be bothered to show up

Mara is great and her arc is fuckin hilarious to me. The narrative has identified her as The Damaged One and I’m like???? She came to terms with her troubled past, drew her own boundaries regarding the Dark Side, recognized that there are people who care about her instead of pre-emptively pushing them away, and resolved to form deeper emotional connections. Smash cut to ROTS Anakin whose physical and psychic damage has literally turned his brain into oatmeal

Again I know this was before the prequels Mad points for explicitly saying Mara needed to form attachments to become a Jedi. Zahn being pretty gangsta there

OH NO THEMB

#long post #hand of thrawn #vision of the future #star wars legends #mara jade #ghent #timothy zahn #ahsoka tano #because ahsoka just sneaks into all my mental processes sorry

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navigator-vahnya · 1 year

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I’ve been listening to the Thrawn 2017 audiobook with my husband on our way to and from work. We just finished the Dromedar incident and got to the part where Captain Rossi gets all pissed off at Thrawn for saving the Dromedar’s crew instead of the Tibana gas. She suspends him, but then Thrawn razzle-dazzles her with some reverse psychology, getting her to kick Eli off the Blood Crow along with him. For those that don’t remember, the convo goes something like this:

Rossi: “One word out of you, Ensign, and your ass is staying behind on Ansion too.”

Eli: *seethes silently*

Thrawn: “i’M sUrE EnSigN VanTo WiLL bE Of gReAt VaLuE tO yOu On tHe ReMAiNDeR oF yOuR PaTroL.”

Rossi: “On SECOND thought, I can hardly deprive my extra special lieutenant of his aide. Congrats on the extended shore leave, Vanto. Peace, bitches.”

Eli: *surprised pikachu face*

At this point, shaking his head in disbelief, Ricky paused the audiobook. This was the conversation that followed:

Me: “What’s wrong?”

Ricky, exasperated: “Why is Thrawn OBSESSED with Eli?”

My brain, who’s an unapologetic Thranto shipper: «Where do I even BEGIN? Let me launch into a detailed monologue on how Thrawn and Eli are actually soulmates, only at this point in the story, Eli doesn’t know it yet.»

But in reality, I don’t want to sway his opinion, and I’m really curious about his unadulterated take on the Thrawn trilogy, so all I said was this:

Me: “Why do you think Thrawn is obsessed with him?”

Ricky: “I dunno, because he keeps manipulating his life? First he asked Palpatine to put Eli with him. Then he pulled that shit to get Eli assigned to the Blood Crow instead of the job he wanted. Now he’s getting Eli kicked off the Blood Crow too. Wherever Thrawn goes, he’s making sure Eli comes with him. Seems pretty obsessive to me.”

Me: “Hmm…”

Ricky, thoughfully: “…Is Thrawn in love with Eli or something?”

My brain: «Yes. Definitely.»

Ricky, not waiting for an answer: “Well, my man Eli better watch his back. Thrawn seems like the kind of dude who’s got people chained up in his basement.”

My brain: «Yep. I’ve definitely read that fic before.»

Me: “Lucky for Eli they don’t have basements in space.”

Ricky: “Are they still roommates? He might not actually need a basement…”

My brain: «And they were ROOMMATES!»

So I really enjoyed my husband’s take for several reasons. Firstly, he picked up right away on the fact that Thrawn’s early relationship with Eli was super manipulative. When I first read the book, I think I was wearing Thranto-colored glasses. I only saw the things I wanted to see. Like how Thrawn saw potential in Eli and wanted to cultivate it. Or maybe it was the bonding experience of Thrawn and Eli both being outcasts together, “the Wild Space yokel and the Unknown Regions alien”; they could succeed when all those core-worlders wanted to see them fail. But in reality, even if he did indeed see potential in Eli, Thrawn screwing around with his whole life and career was hella manipulative. Of course I know now that Thrawn wanted to keep him close because there was concern of Eli being a spy or even a Grysk plant. Even though he did indeed come to appreciate Eli’s unique talents over time, that’s not why he kept him close at first. But I was impressed that Ricky immediately called Thrawn’s behavior out as “obsessive,” because…well, it does come off that way.

Secondly, the Thranto shipper in me found it really interesting that Ricky asked me, “Is Thrawn in love with Eli or something?” Even though the love in question is of the manipulative and obsessive variety, I found it interesting that that word crossed his mind. It goes to show that even people who aren’t looking for it, and who aren’t reading between the lines, can pick up on some sort of Thranto vibe while reading (or in our case, listening to) this book. I really can’t wait to hear what he thinks once Eli’s loyalty to Thrawn begins to grow.

#thrawn #eli vanto #thranto #thrawn 2017 #ricky listens to thrawn #lilythoughts

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corellianhounds · 18 days

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Criticism of Ahsoka Tano’s Character and Role in Season 2 of The Mandalorian with Suggested Changes

Word Count: 2.8k

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I’m largely indifferent to and more critical of Ahsoka Tano’s live action appearances in The Mandalorian and The Book of Boba Fett than favorable. The short reason for why is that my introduction to her was the second season of Mando with “The Jedi” episode, and your audience only cares about Gandalf the White if they already know Gandalf the Grey.

The longer reason is that I don’t think she’s utilized well for Mando’s story. When I saw her for the first time I only knew through cultural osmosis that she was in TCW and was Anakin’s padawan. That’s it. I don’t know anything about her character and that episode doesn’t give me much to go on. I haven’t seen The Clone Wars or Rebels cartoons and I think it’s unrealistic to automatically expect your audience to know who this person is when this show was introduced as a standalone story with brand new characters, simply set in the world of Star Wars. There’s no indication that I should have seen two unrelated cartoon shows before going into The Mandalorian, so if you’re going to have this pre-established character from another medium, she should be written as if you’re introducing her for the first time. Don’t rely on what part of your audience knows about her, introduce her to this story as a new character because she’s entirely new to your main character (who in this show is also the audience’s proxy for new information). You shouldn’t be relying on our hypothetical prior knowledge for us to trust her or know where she’s coming from regarding the Jedi as a whole.

If your intention as the show runner is for your target audience to be people who have consumed select pieces/all of Star Wars media in the past forty years so you don’t have to do a lot of (or better) exposition, you have to be okay with automatically limiting your audience and likely having casual viewers (of which Mando had many) drop off when you start writing in characters without having more thorough storytelling establishing their place in this show. From a casual viewer’s standpoint, her character isn’t all that interesting, forthcoming, or fleshed out in “The Jedi,” at least not enough for me to care about the fact she’s apparently the main character of that episode since the central conflict/physical plot doesn’t affect or pertain to Mando’s overarching plot or character development, and the Thrawn name drop meant nothing to the audience regarding Mando’s story that far and— in the rest of two seasons of his own show and his participation in TBoBF— has yielded nothing as a result. What the episode did was introduce Ahsoka so she could get her own show and it largely wasted Mando’s episode and his involvement with Ahsoka for that entire season. We’re not given any indication that the information he gets could only come from her and not another Force user, and at that point the show would have been better served with an original character not constrained by or beholden to an established (apparently canon?) history or the episode’s focus on her.

Bo-Katan comes back at the end of Season 2 and is involved with the overarching plot. Cobb Vanth was apparently from the comics but I didn’t need to have read them for his character to make sense in the Krayt dragon episode because they DID lay out his character well enough I didn’t need prior context. Objectively, “The Jedi” episode is poorly written as an episodic installment of The Mandalorian, the script and characters on their own aren’t all that compelling, the music is what really indicates I’m supposed to care about Ahsoka/her decisions, and if you look at it from the POV of knowing Mando’s story with no knowledge of Ahsoka, she’s kind of wishy-washy and vague in her response to testing/training the kid and her explanation as to WHY she has reservations. I don’t find her character admirable when she refuses to go through with their deal in the end, especially since it’s apparent she has bigger priorities she should have been clear about from the beginning.

I know her being clear about her priorities would negate Mando’s purpose in staying there and the episode would follow him off to wherever he went next, but keeping Mando there for her for the whole episode only for her to go back on their deal makes her seem deceitful and not much different than Bo-Katan, who also used him for her own gain and changed the terms of their deal partway through the job once Mando was already working for her. The only difference is in their deliveries and personalities. The showrunners relied too heavily on the audience not wanting Mando to separate from Grogu to be what kept us from protesting about/criticizing Ahsoka’s decision; audience emotions are irrelevant to what will make a stronger story that will have more impact in the end. We don’t have to like every character who’s introduced, and our opinions about them can change over time as the story progresses and we see them develop.

If you don’t want me to think negatively of Ahsoka but you’re dead set on these circumstances being what keeps these two characters together for the length of the episode, she can’t have her mission take priority in the end. It’s that plain and simple. If she was never going to train the kid, she needed to be upfront about it AND you need to explain to Mando— somebody who has zero clue about the Jedi code or Force powers or the caution against attachment and it’s reason for existing in the first place— why the kid seeing him as his father is relevant to Jedi training at all. You can’t just say “You're like a father to him. I cannot train him,” you have to explain to Mando what being a Jedi™ means. The Jedi were peacekeepers specifically trained to uphold and defend what was best for the greater good and to serve as protectors of other people, meaning the choice to train the child as a Jedi would mean Grogu dedicating his life to this schooling, and that people with strong emotional personal attachments tend to have a harder time separating themselves from their loved ones and tend to prioritize those loved ones over everybody else, meaning they’re less likely to be good at doing what the Jedi specifically were called to do. That doesn’t mean the kid or anybody with similar tendencies is ‘bad,’ it means they shouldn’t dedicate their life to being a Jedi™. There’s more than one way to learn how to use the Force.

Does that ruin the chance of Mando staying there on Corvus because he would logically move on, meaning we as the audience wouldn’t see Ahsoka’s Cool Samurai Episode™? Yeah, but those are the circumstances Favreau and Filoni came up with, so either you change the story or change Ahsoka’s character or change Mando’s role in the Calodan conflict. Kill your darlings and write a better story. It’s not the Ahsoka show, it’s Mando’s.

However, the episode isn’t unfixable.

One of my biggest complaints with Season 2 is that it failed to establish/drive Mando’s character with the inner motivation of why he’s bringing the kid to a Jedi in the first place: yes, the Armorer tasked him with returning the child to the Jedi so that the boy had the chance of being raised by people like him who may already know him and would understand how to raise him to control the powers he has, but that’s the external reason. The whole premise of the show is predicated on the child being in danger and Mando wanting him to be safe. The Armorer says in the finale for Season 1 that the boy is too small and young to be trained as a Mandalorian, but given the fact he’s capable of powers that allow him to do these incredible things, there’s a possibility he can be trained to defend himself in other ways. The point of giving the child to a Jedi is that he’s given the cultural upbringing closest to what he would know as his own (an ideal the Armorer, Mando, and Mandalorian culture as a whole would understand the importance and value of), and so that he can learn to protect himself.

“The Heiress” should have established that as Mando’s internal motivation, and “The Jedi” should have been where the character voiced it because by this point in the season he should be at his most desperate. He’s finally found a Jedi and she’s reluctant to take him. Ahsoka’s his last lead. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: there is only one way for Din and Grogu’s story to end, and it’s with one of them dying before the other. The child does not age the same way humans do. He needs to be trained to use his powers so that he can defend himself when he’s alone. His proximity to Din makes him a target by association because Din simply being a Mandalorian invites conflict. Even when the Empire isn’t after the kid, the child is constantly in danger. Even if Din lives to a remarkably old age, the boy may still be a child by his species’ reckoning. Who’s going to take care of him once Mando is gone? What happens if they’re separated now and the child is in danger?

That’s a very real and compelling motivation for Din to want to give the child away for the child’s own good, permanently if he has to. If giving the boy to a stranger means he will be safe and taught how to keep himself safe, that’s the sacrifice Din is willing to make. That’s the kind of sacrifice any good parent with empirical evidence backing up their reasoning would understand, and Din has seen that evidence in spades.

We should see Din being scared for the child. That worry fuels his mission and it should stoke his anger and frustration when that mission continues to be foiled by dead ends (Cobb Vanth not being a true Mandalorian, therefore having no contact or information to give him), side journeys that cost him time, resources, safety, and possessions (the Frog Lady’s contact for information contingent on traveling sublight, which garners them the attention of the law), and personal conflicts and compromises (Bo-Katan’s heist, deception, and their culture clash). “The Siege” re-establishes that the child is still in the greatest possible danger he could be as a target of the Empire, and Mando is following his last flimsy lead to a Jedi who may or may not exist or even be on the planet he’s been sent to, considering the person who gave him that intel deceived him once already before giving it to him.

Mando should have been desperate for Ahsoka’s help. If she refuses to train the kid, he (as far as he’s aware) has no other options. If Ahsoka were honest about having larger priorities to attend to (ones Din wouldn’t object to if she explained she was fighting the resurgent Empire too), she could have told him about Tython at the beginning and the two would have parted ways without wasting Mando’s (and the audience’s) time on the Calodan storyline.

Mando wasn’t given enough time or personal connection to the people under the magistrate’s despotic rule for his bleeding heart and sense of honor to compel him to stay, and Ahsoka was honestly capable enough I don’t think she needed Mando’s help. She was planning to storm the castle herself anyway. Mando could have gotten the spear another way if that was to be his incentive for taking down Elsbeth.

In order to fix “The Jedi” and still have Ahsoka as the main secondary character and still have her be an honorable person by the end, a few things need to happen:

If Ahsoka was going to be a genuine option to take the kid under her wing, she should have been sent there by somebody else to depose the magistrate and gain the information about Thrawn that she would then relay back to her partner or employer, or she should had a personal vendetta against the magistrate (devoid of any connection to Thrawn) and genuinely needed help getting close enough to take her out.

Mando needs to be given more story and connection to the given circumstances of Calodan, forming connections with and gathering exposition from the people in town

Ahsoka and Mando’s discussion where she’s already reluctant to take the child as a student for personal reasons needed a better explanation based on how she saw her own master fall because of his flaws (just enough to flesh her out and give exposition to Mando/the audience who have no idea who she is), and Din’s own reasoning and desperation need to reach a boiling point where he reveals why he’s so insistent on the child needing a teacher (so the child can be taught to protect himself). This discussion needs to establish tension and stakes that make the emotional conflict (having Ahsoka take the kid and Mando’s mission being complete) dependent on the outcome of the physical conflict (the liberation of Calodan, Ahsoka resolving whichever conflict she has with Elsbeth)

That revelation allows Ahsoka to say she’ll consider taking the child as a pupil, but that it can’t be done until her mission is completed

The two of them have contact with other characters introduced from Mando’s more fleshed out connections and the story in town, grounding Mando’s involvement in this physical conflict

And most importantly, something Mando does in the ending fight/s inadvertently affords one of the citizens the chance to kill Elsbeth themselves before Ahsoka can get the information she wants. This reinforces Mando’s character as somebody who puts power into the hands of the people most affected by the conflict they’ve asked him to help with, and it inadvertently thwarts Ahsoka’s objective in obtaining information, forcing her to forgo the kid’s apprenticeship and forcing Mando to continue ahead, trying to find the information elsewhere. This outcome, based on consequences driven by character decisions, is much more compelling and satisfying and more naturally prevents the main character from achieving his main objective, forcing him in the story to continue forward.

This doesn’t mean the two of them have to be enemies. Conflict from outside factors prevents Ahsoka from being the child’s teacher and gives a logical segue for Ahsoka to give Mando the next best thing since she can no longer help (information about Tython and the chance of finding another Jedi or Force user). It provides a more natural exit for Ahsoka to either stay or go in the larger story of Mando and the kid, and her character doesn’t end up being wishy-washy or deceitful at all. Things just didn’t work out for the three of them, and it’s time for them to part ways.

If anything, doing that episode right could have meant it became a two-parter in order to really get into some of the nitty gritty of each of those characters and more worldbuilding and hey! Now die-hard Ahsoka fans get two episodes with her, and Mando’s character is given meaningful involvement in town and we can flesh out the storyline with Elsbeth a little more, raise the stakes and really give it some tension.

(This episode could have also had the optional bit of exposition of the two of them coming to the realization that the child doesn’t necessarily need to be a Jedi, that was just the information Din was operating under because that was what was available to him, and what Din really means when he says he needs to find a Jedi is that he wants the child to be protected by people who understand him and can teach him the kind of effective self defense he’d be capable of. Ahsoka or whoever you have filling her role (or even somebody in the town) can tell Mando that being a Jedi is not the only way to master use of the Force, that there are other avenues that would achieve Din’s inner objective, which in turn foreshadow and/or parallel Din dealing with challenges to his faith and the other ways he sees people being Mandalorians.)

(Him deviating from the exact wording of the mission the Armorer gave him is a non-issue. She gave him an objective with the broadest and biggest target she herself had knowledge of and she wouldn’t have cared if the kid ended up being given to a non-Jedi provided they were still a Force-user and they were who Din decided was best suited to fill that role. She trusts his judgment. This show had the opportunity to branch out into what else the world of Star Wars has to offer and diversify the setting so that we could have either gotten away from the Jedi or kept from rehashing things the audience is already aware of concerning them.)

#The Mandalorian #Din Djarin #Ahsoka Tano #baby yoda #character analysis #The Mandalorian meta #my writing #hounds speaks #The Mandalorian crit

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cross-my-heartt · 1 year

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Appreciating Rebels Thrawn: Atollon

Okay folks this one is going to be different from my Rewriting Rebels Thrawn series. I wanted to take the time to appreciate this arc because I think it's very in line with what we know about book canon Thrawn.

So this is going to be an analysis of why Atollon works, especially in the sense of what failure looks like for Thrawn, with some teeny tiny scene tweaks and suggestions at the end for how it could be brought even closer to book canon.

So without further ado, let's get into it. (As always, spoilers for the books ahead).

In terms of chronology, we're at a point where Thrawn has recently been promoted and given command of the Seventh Fleet, and been assigned to deal with the rebel threat on Lothal. This is important because it means he's had limited time to handpick and mentor his subordinates. Something that's vital to the success of his convoluted plans.

To put it simply, Thrawn's way of leadership requires trust and competence (both of which he does his damnedest to cultivate in the books). Otherwise his sand castle tactics are likely to fall apart as soon as something minor goes wrong. And a lot of things go wrong at Atollon.

In the books, he's at his most successful when his forces follow his orders to a t. When they trust him to know what he's doing and his officers can keep up with him after working with him long enough and absorbing his teachings.

The best examples of this are Karyn Faro and Eli. And during the Atollon attack, Eli is with the Chiss while Karyn is a later introduction to the franchise that sadly doesn't make an appearance in the show.

All of this to say that Thrawn is now left with Konstantine and Pryce at the helm and, surprise surprise, both of them make huge, costly, stupid mistakes. (Way to go guys.)

There are three major factors to Thrawn's failure:

Konstantine's stupid stunt, resulting in the interdictor's destruction, Ezra's escape and the subsequent arrival of reinforcements

Pryce's handling of Kallus' imprisonment

and the Bendu, ie some serious Deus Ex Machina force shenanigans

And honestly, objectively speaking? None of these are Thrawn's fault. Which is good because after reading about the ridiculous uber talented things he pulls off in the books, we need a damn good reason for him to fail so spectacularly.

Moving on, Konstantine's blunder is the result of him disobeying Thrawn's orders out of pure stupidity. In that moment he's motivated by his own petty ambition, the kind of thing Thrawn doesn't understand (and would have a difficult time foreseeing) because it's not what motivates him.

Pryce's handling of Kallus on the other hand is an emotional reaction. She gets angry, sends Kallus to get killed (something Tharwn would never do because it's a waste of resources) with minimal security and Kallus escapes.

This is again something Tharwn would have a hard time foreseeing because he rarely, if ever, allows emotions to cloud his judgement.

There is also the fact that Pryce is someone Thrawn has to work with not because he wants to but because he has to. She's his political mediator, someone he needs to help him navigate politics and do damage control for his blunders.

Which is a detail I find really neat because it means that a) he can't get rid of her despite her not meeting his standard for competence and b) he's in this position because Pryce dragged him to deal with the rebels on Lothal as part of their deal.

And then we have this moment:

Which is

hands down

MY FAVORITE MOMENT IN THE WHOLE SERIES.

My man is befuddled. He is bamboozled. Baffled. Discombobulated. Stunned. Because for the first time there's been a wrench of such epic proportions thrown into his plans that we see him thwarted in every direction.

This is Thrawn faced with an unknown he couldn't have foreseen or factored into his plans in any way. And I love to see that.

All in all this arc serves to demonstrate how fragile Thrawn's tactics can be. How his plans are not necessarily flawed but their success relies on things going exactly how he needs them to and people doing exactly what he tells them to which isn't always the case.

Back in the Ascendancy his success rate was higher because of the people he worked alongside and the familiarity of his circumstances. Here, he doesn't have that same stable footing and it only makes sense for him to stumble more often as a result.

And this is why I like this arc in general.

Other notable moments are Kallus' 'You talk too much' because yes, Thrawn does indeed talk a lot. He explains, he elaborates, he muses he very much loves including people into these musings and explaining every minor detail of his plans.

Then there is Kallus being present when Thrawn explains how he's found Atollon and for the subsequent battle. Some fics have interpreted that as an necessarily cruel 'making him watch' and 'gloating' moment. Which may very well be the case from Kallus' pov.

But in reality this is a tactic Thrawn often uses in the books: observing his enemies' reactions to things (sometimes events he's gone so far as to fabricate for this very purpose) and using that to extrapolate information. And Kallus' visible reaction to Atollon's location may well have been the final confirmation that Thrawn needed (smh, Yularen would be so disappointed).

I also love the moment where Thrawn cuts Konstantine off and emphasizes the importance of him doing exactly as Thrawn has ordered. Because as we've already said, that's key to the success of his plans. But it also shows that despite Thrawn's difficulty in predicting some people's motivations, he does have a good sense for his subordinates' competence. Part of why he's so good at curating competent crews. And he is not loving Konstantine's vibes here.

As for the things I would (personally!) tweak to bring show and book canon even closer, they're both very minor and have to do with dialogue.

Like Thrawn's line to Kallus:

I do not require glory, only results (this is where I was screaming YES) for my Emperor. (and this is where I was screaming NOOO).

Yes, Thrawn values results over everything. He values results over etiquette (his words to Samakro), he values results over rules and he values results over rewards.

One thing he does struggle with however is convincing Palpatine of his loyalty to the Empire - something that has very real consequences for him in Alliances. That's because Thrawn isn't actually loyal to the Empire. He's loyal to his people first and foremost and when he does try to convince the Emperor, or Vader, of his loyalty it's by arguing that his people's interests coincide with the Empire's.

So this part of his line doesn't sit well with me.

The use of my in 'my Emperor' especially tilts the line towards a personal loyalty to Palpatine which couldn't be further from the truth. Saying 'the Emperor' would be a bit better but I'd remove the Emperor part altogether.

You could argue that he's doing it to create an illusion of loyalty but seeing as he had difficulties doing that with Vader, I don't see why he would bother attempting it with a rebel prisoner.

Thrawn has no trouble lying when it's part of his tactical maneuvering, when it's for the sake of misinformation and positioning an opponent into a trap, but this kind of lie is more in the realm of political manipulation. Currying favor with allies and superiors. And that's an area he notably struggles in.

And finally: 'You misunderstand, Captain. I'm not accepting surrenders at this time. I want you to know failure, utter defeat, and that it is I who delivers it crashing down upon you.'

Again we start off great: Thrawn is blunt and he doesn't hesitate to present his enemies with hard facts, especially when he has them cornered and right where he wants them to. Call it an intimidation tactic or just part of his habit to lay things out.

The next part though, I would cut out completely. Because if there's one thing Tharwn is not, in my opinion, it's gloating. The canon books don't give you the sense that he's a character with a bloated ego or someone who engages in unnecessary comments just for the sake of his own malicious satisfaction. So it's a no for me.

But I'll stop myself here before this becomes too long... or, well, longer. All in all, an amazing arc that gives us great character moments and one I could rewatch many times over.

#thrawn #mitth'raw'nuruodo #grand admiral thrawn #sw rebels #star wars rebels #thrawn books #thrawn trilogy

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trashtalkingracoon · 4 months

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ok, so some thoughts about Thrawn: Treason. i'm gonna put all of this under a Read More just in case.

first of all, i must say i absolutely love Eli Vanto and i missed him dearly. having him around again during Treason was just so, so good.

Eli is such a great character. smart, interesting, kind hearted. his thoughts and feelings are just so interesting to me. the frustration after being "good day lieutenant vanto"ed by Thrawn was so funny. i mean, the man gave Eli his diary and then just said GOOD DAY? i'd be mad too.

i also LOVE Ronan. he is so silly with that cape and his antagonistic behaviour towards Thrawn and how he absolutely worships Krennic. i think Ronan is another very interesting character and i appreciate how he is given a second chance by Thrawn. i know Thrawn does that because he sees a purpose for Ronan and i'm glad this purpose is among the Chiss. i feel like there is so much to his character when we break the walls Ronan built to survive the Empire and thrive. he behaves like that because that's what is needed and expected of a Imperial buoroucrat. however, i feel like the way he is "taken" to the Ascendancy is kinda weak.

now, about Thrawn, i really like how he is slowly losing grip of things. he is thrown in the middle of a political showdown he doesn't understand. the grysks are dangerously close. he loses his precious TIE defender fundings. he wins every battle and somehow keeps losing. and yet the wishes to remain in the Empire, because he thinks that the Empire, a fascist regime with a strong military and no political freedom, is the answer to fight off the Grysks. he recognizes the Empire's weaknesses but he needs its military power. but the Grysks get their way by infiltrating slowly in a culture and political structure. military power is not the answer.

anyways. everything about Thrawn fascinates me. he is just this normal dude that keeps pulling shit out of nowhere and somehow he manages to be almost always right. he pulls the craziest plans and is just like "lol trust me". i love him.

now i will read the Ascendancy trilogy which i havent read yet so i might come back with more weird ass long Thrawn posts. also i just wanna say that filoni is a bitch that should read the canon books because they are very good material. "long live the empire" my ass.

#thrawn #ramblings

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twinsunstars · 10 months

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Thrawn: Alliances - A Discussion of My Favorite Parts

Hello! I recently finished reading Thrawn: Alliances and I loved every bit of interaction with every character featured in this novel. The novel goes back and forth from the present to the past, focusing on the Imperial Era with Darth Vader, and the Clone Wars era with Anakin Skywalker, as Thrawn has met both. Note that I didn't put every excerpt in order of how the book goes, I just placed my screenshots and went along with my thoughts.

SPOILERS AHEAD IF YOU HAVEN'T READ IT YET!

Anakin misses her so much… I wonder how the book’s plot would have gone if this took place before Ahsoka left the order. She would possibly be on the mission with Anakin and would have met Thrawn long ago.

This was too funny. I really want to hear Anakin try to pronounce his whole name. It would be great if Star Wars brought this scene (or all of the Clone Wars scenes in here) to life in either animation or live action.

R2-D2 is one of the best companions anyone could ever have. R2's survived through so many events and battles, and he loves being alongside Anakin. R2's ready for anything.

I love it when Thrawn focuses on tiny details that are important to the big picture. It's definitely all part of his love for art. I think Anakin is really fortunate that Thrawn came along his path and joined his mission, and without him Anakin would be having a lot more trouble trying to find Padmé.

Back in the present, Thrawn and Vader just continue to keep on arguing and disagreeing with each other. I found it quite funny.

I love how R2 is always watching out for Anakin, it's really cute. Losing him towards the end of the Clone Wars probably took a toll on him, and he never knew what happened to his old master, and he's the only droid who remembers him so closely.

Anakin's really trying to be like "I don't know what you're talking about" while Thrawn is already figuring out that Anakin and Padmé are basically an item.

I love how Thrawn is willing to stay loyal to his homeworld while making the choice to be an Imperial. He chooses to fight for both sides, and nothing will stop him from doing that.

Vader really keeps telling Thrawn that "Anakin Skywalker is dead", and Thrawn just keeps nodding his head with it. Like he knows, but isn't addressing the fact that he knows. He just has to go along with whatever happened to his old friend.

We all know Thrawn loves art. Every piece of art has meaning to it, from the colors to the textures to the lines. Thrawn's art analyses are something I'm always willing to read and pay close attention to.

Thrawn said "we", and Vader caught that. He himself claimed he killed Anakin Skywalker himself back in the Obi-Wan Kenobi series, and the inner Anakin deep inside him remembers that Thrawn knew him. Vader has the need to correct Thrawn, as Vader was never with Thrawn before, but Anakin was.

Padmé really wanted to hug Anakin, but they can't do anything with others around watching them. Anakin didn't like the idea of splitting up and Padmé going with Thrawn instead of him, but he makes sure Thrawn will take care of her.

Padmé tells Thrawn about a useful tactic Ahsoka had created that is sometimes used in battles, and Thrawn takes inspiration from this. Unfortunately, Ahsoka isn't here since she had already left the Jedi Order, but it would have been interesting if she was here and had met Thrawn years ago. It'll be interesting when Ahsoka meets him in the series.

I love this line. Thrawn will serve his own people more than anyone else, and protect them more. Nothing else matters when his people are involved in an event.

I need to physically SEE Thrawn holding and fighting with Anakin's lightsaber. He naturally somehow knows how to fight with a lightsaber and use the weapon.

This part was funny. Most of the time, Vader has no idea what Thrawn is talking about, while Thrawn is like "It makes sense, just go along with it."

Honestly, Thrawn should really be keeping those Force-sensitive Chiss they found far away from the hands of the Emperor, but to me it wasn't too clear on what Thrawn and the Emperor had actually been talking about regarding the Force-sensitives, and it's different for them on his homeworld. Vader is definitely thinking out of the box here.

With this, I finally got to understand how the Force works with his people. I began reading the Ascendancy novels, and the girls with the "Third Sight" are definitely being overworked to the point where their ability begins to fade. Or it could be something that they get the Force but it just starts to fade.

Sureee, until a clan of purgills comes to take you far away and strand you with one of the Jedi rebels you're trying to defeat...

I made a post before talking about this part, and ever since I finished the book, this part has just stuck with me. Thrawn remembers Anakin how he had met and known him, and he will never forget it.

Vader said "us", similar to the scene where Thrawn said "we". Vader making this error in speech just further confirms Thrawn's suspicion of Vader being Anakin under all that armor.

You've reached the end! I really liked this book, and Thrawn and Anakin's dynamic was enjoyable to read. I'm excited for the Alliances comic that is set to release next year, and we can finally see this book in visuals. Let me know your thoughts of the novel!

#thrawn alliances #thrawn novels #star wars #grand admiral thrawn #anakin skywalker #darth vader #padme amidala #ahsoka tano #ahsoka series #clone wars

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mayawakening · 5 months

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May's Mall Adventure

So imma preface this and say I don't just randomly go places, especially notoriously crowded places, like, ever. (Hurray autism!) However, my support person (my older sister) talked me into going to the mall with her for some exercise. Actually ended up going okay, and there was some hilarious blorbo-fication happening the entire time. (My sister knows about my Kalluzeb obsession)

So right off the bat I noticed these pants.

There are SO MANY POCKETS. Like, literally pockets on the pockets.

Sister laughed and said "Oh, Kallus would love those!" Y'ALL SHE'S NOT WRONG. 🤣

Found out that pretty much EVERY store window had insanely pocketed cargo pants, so apparently thats the style right now. I was giggling to myself imagining Sabine dragging an extremely uncomfortable Kallus through an Old Navy because "You need more clothes" and "everything has pockets, you like that, right?"

I also ended up taking pictures of really random things because I wanna try to make weaving patterns.

Also we found an anatomically correct corgi (lol)

Hehehehe

I found @lost-in-derry at Barnes and Noble!!

Also, I feel like out of any store at the mall, Kallus would have a Barnes and Noble membership. People would get him B&N gift cards as gifts. He would go pick up a mountain of books and exclusively use the external entrance so he wouldn't have to actually be IN the mall. Zeb has to physically haul him away from bookstores.

Took a peek inside the first Thrawn book, in case anyone needs the timeline. (I haven't read it yet, only Ascendancy)

Also my sister bought me a tiny plastic shark. His name is Nubbins.

Thus concludes my mall adventure!

#kalluzeb #alexsandr kallus #star wars #kallus #star wars kallus #rebel kallus #kallus my beloved #garazeb orrelios #kallus x zeb #sabine wren #kallus and sabine #Pockets #idk how to tag this #idk what else to tag #idk what im doing #i love yall

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lorrainestea · 5 months

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Tales of The Empire - Morgan Elsbeth story thoughts:

Honestly about the whole series, I'm happy we got more Morgan content, but it still seems to... Shallow? I hoped we would know about her life before, at least two minutes of showing her just chilling with her friends and mom and living her life before everything turned rapidly. It would be even more tragic to see how she lost herself after the horrors she witnessed.

Also loved the woman from the Mountain Clan, good job at taking care of traumatized teenager who's mom was killed right in front of her eyes and then be like "Hey, come here and look how your home is burning and everyone you loved is dead and burning, but you just live in peace now and forget all your fears, they're stupid". Morgan acted stupidly and harshly when she wanted to destroy the rest of the droids, but omg she herself said she was a child, a traumatized child feeling guilty about her mother's death and just wanting to protect others. She felt like she must do something to protect them and of course in her head made sense that go in a fight it's the only option. She needed understanding and something better than being basically told "Calm down". And then that woman told Morgan she knows her destiny and she feels sorry for her? Ma'am that's a child that just lost everything, how about a little sympathy and try to help her otherwise when "Don't worry about anything, everything is okay" for some very strange reason didn't work?

Not to mention that we didn't even have a chance to see Morgan dealing with her emotions properly. Idk how about you, but if my people were all killed, my family was killed, I was almost killed and my culture, one part of me, just disappeared and my whole life changed this dramatically, I can imagine losing a will to live when there would be nothing left for me anymore. And again, I would need someone by my side who wouldn't even have to understand, just be there for me and see my point of view.

So let's agree Morgan needed therapy more than anything and let's move on.

Oh and for some reason Morgan lost her marks but not the crescent one on her forehead and Merrin apparently never lost hers? Like what?

They skipped the part of her life I was so curious about, I mean how exactly did she start designing weapons? How exactly did she get her post on Calodan and how did she build her lil gang?

And to her meeting with Thrawn... Look, I didn't even read the whole first Ascendency book and I still agree Eli Vanto should be there if anything else doesn't make sense (**ahem** Morgan designing TIE fighters that she would never design because Thrawn used a design of Chiss technology **ahem**). Also was it really so clown of me thinking we're gonna get deep dive in Morgan's relationship with Thrawn? Was it so naive to think they were like a mentor and a student and Thrawn saw potential in her and helped Morgan direct her ambitions and plans because it was somehow convenient for both of them?

Or am I supposed to believe that this was their whole relationship and the reason why Morgan was willing to sacrifice everything and risk everything to pick him up from a distant galaxy?

I love Morgan, I'm happy we got an extra 30 minutes of her and Diana could once again give her life, but this didn't help to completely see under the surface where the iceberg is.

#morgan elsbeth #diana lee inosanto #tales of the empire #thrawn #grand admiral thrawn #star wars #the mandalorian #ahsoka #dave filoni

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radiosummons · 2 years

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I have yet to actually see a single episode of Rebels. So aside from gifs I've seen of certain scenes (mostly Ahsoka running into Anakin as Vader and Maul's final fight with Obi-Wan), I have little to no knowledge of what actually happens in it.

Before I start watching it, however, I want to make a list of the things I think I know and then do a little compare and contrast sort of thing once I've completed it. No need to correct me if I'm wrong on anything and I will ask for no spoilers (for the time being), but we'll see how well that goes.

Anyway here's what I think happens in Rebels based on the gifs, fan art and random other fandom related shit I've absorbed through osmosis:

The main character is Ezra Bridger and apparently he gets a boyfriend near the end of the series??? Good for him.

Kanan is Caleb Dume, Depa's padawan. He's the fan favorite.

Kanan gets married to a Twi'lek Rebel fighter named Hera. I'm very happy for them both.

There's a Lasatt voiced by Joe DiMaggio. I think. I've heard there are a lot of fart jokes related to him. I'm really hoping there isn't.

Ezra goes Sith for a period. Or like flirts with the Dark Side? Idk something emo is going on with him.

Maul kidnaps Ezra and tries to make him his apprentice. I assume this is the part where Ezra goes emo boy mode.

Sabine becomes Manda'lor. And then gives the Darksaber to Bo-Katan. Who then isn't the Manda'lor because she didn't win it via mortal combat? Idk, man, Favroni are on one with this bullshit.

Tarre Vizsla gets introduced in Rebels and he is the only valid Vizsla (besides Paz) to ever exist. I refuse to stop stanning our canon Mandalorian Jedi. Don't ever change, Tarre!

I don't actually know who Sabine is, but her design is very reminiscent of mid 2000s "cool girl" character aesthetics and it feels sorta aged to me. Regardless of this, I'm assuming she's a great character as I haven't really seen anyone shitting on her.

Ezra and Sabine are in a relationship? Were in a relationship? No fucking clue.

I think Obi-Wan mercy kills Maul in front of Ezra????? If that's the case, Ezra would technically be among the few people to know that Obi-Wan's alive and where he's hiding. I'm going to assume he's just keeping his mouth shut?

I've heard that Sabine is a lesbian??? I have no fucking clue what she and Ezra got going on then, but in this house we stan all queer identities so whatevs.

Thrawn makes an appearance. I somehow knew about Thrawn being in Rebels, but literally nothing else. Which is weird 'cause I remember reading the books as a kid but I've retained no memory of them. Anyway, looking forward to seeing his blue ass.

I think Ahsoka gets her badass codename "Fulcrum" from the Rebels show. I will be very happy if this is true.

Hondo Ohnaka tries to sell one of the main crew. Idk who. And I don't even know if this is even true. But I know this little rat man and I would be shocked if he didn't attempt to do something.

Kanan is part werewolf. I have no fucking clue what the lore explanation for this is. I just keep seeing shit that says he's a werewolf and I refuse to budge on this until I figure out otherwise.

#sw rebels #rebels #ezra bridger #kanan jarrus #caleb dume #ahsoka tano #maul #darth maul #sabine wren #fulcrum #if spoilers can be avoided #then many thanks #lol

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gffa · 5 months

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have received a no-exchange package from the fam for buying books and I’m deciding to invest a portion of it to get into thrawn. (i’ve seen a shit ton of stuff online and i’m just very confused as to how to start to get to know him and write fics about him sue me i love the man to death)

any suggestions?

Hi! For me, I would suggest the Thrawn novel from 2017 and the following two books in the trilogy. There are two Thrawn trilogies in Disney canon, but in my experience, more of fandom tends to focus on the first trilogy because that's where Eli Vanto appears and he's a character that a lot of people love (or ship with Thrawn) and also I just really genuinely loved that first book! (I'm still working on getting into the second trilogy.) I would say, start with Thrawn (2017) and if you like it, keep going with Thrawn: Alliances and Thrawn: Treason. Personally, I didn't care for Alliances as much as I did the first one, I tend to suggest it as a library loan to see if you do (because many people loved it and so it's very much a YMMV thing!), but that first one was fantastic. You can safely skip the comics for now, because almost all of Thrawn's comic appearances are adaptations of the books. The second trilogy Thrawn Ascendancy (starting with Chaos Rising) came out second and I generally think SW books are best read in release order, because they're often written with the idea that you've seen/read the previous releases when you pick up the new one (again, mileages vary on this topic, but that's my personal advice!), so I would say save that for if you really get into him. Otherwise, watch Rebels and you can skip (for now) the Legends stuff (the Heir to the Empire books that Zahn also wrote), and that'll get you up to speed on what you really need to know for Thrawn as a character! Ultimately, my experience has been that Thrawn fandom generally focuses on Rebels and the 2017 eponymous novel as the primary foundation, and once you get those finished, you can spread out to the rest of the books at your own pace. It looks confusing from the outside, but honestly once you get a couple under your belt, it gets so much easier to navigate SW as a franchise!

#lumi.txt #star wars #thrawn

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tarisilmarwen · 1 year

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Ahsoka "Fallen Jedi" Liveblog

Let's go let's go let's go let's go let's goooooooooooooo!

Oh I'm so excited for this I already know there are Developments.

Hype hype hype hype.

Oh we're starting off with complete silence are we? Okay.

Sabine trying to raise Hera. :(

Ahhhh yes it's the "Ahsoka and Sabine butting heads about saving Ezra versus stopping Thrawn" convo Sabezra fandom predicted.

"Can I count on you?" Low blow Ahsoka, recalling Ezra's own words.

"I know how much Ezra means to you." *falls into this line, dies*

Oh don't let Huyang get shot, come on now, you already had him get blasted once.

Buncha trailer shots in this episode I'm guessing.

"Stay together. You always did better that way, in my opinion." Ha ha ha this would be a sweet line if we had ever actually SEEN Ahsoka and Sabine working together. *grumbles*

Hera going off by herself to go help Sabine and Ahsoka lolol. That little face she makes when she says, "Watch me."

Baby Jacen is still super precious.

The GHOOOOOOOOOOSSST!

This sequence would have been the perfect spot to drop Zeb in, you know. Just saying.

Go girls go, go, go, you need to get on that ship before it leaves!

And it's my favorite new villain couple.

If Shin could have a bit more personality she'd be more interesting but "feral" is wearing thin.

OH AND NOW WE HAVE A TICKING CLOCK DEVICE.

There were people complaining that this moment where Ahsoka wipes Marrok was lifted from "Twin Suns" but in context... no it's just Dave's usual thing for cool samurai finishers.

Oh wow Shin looks extremely unnerved at Marrok dissipating into green Nightsister mist.

Did... Morgan take all the guards and droids with her? Just leaving Baylan there by himself to handle Ahsoka huh? What a bitch.

"One must destroy in order to create." Nooooooooo they really don't Baylan, that's grade A horseshit.

And stinks of Empire and Sith apologism.

The map is gorgeous. Wish they'd turn the saturation and contrast up just a smidge more so the colors could POP.

Oh this music cue is great!

YES! LET BAYLAN CUT LOOSE. Man is a beast.

Ahsoka's trying to disengage long enough to get the map. :((((

Ha ha, nice. Mandalorian trick.

Ooooof the map burned Ahsoka's hand?

Ahsoka where's your shoto blade?

Right, like Sabine's dinky little blaster is gonna do anything to that map, sure Ahsoka. You just burned your hand on how super overheated it was and all it was doing was generating hyperspace coordinates for a cross-galactic jump, you think a shot from a small firearm is gonna pierce it?

Oooooh that angle-back closed-eye look from Baylan... he's telepathically reading her like a book isn't he?

"Your family died on Mandalore because your Master didn't trust you." WELL I'M JUST GOING TO PATENTLY IGNORE THAT BECAUSE NO FILONI, YOU CANNOT JUST DROP THAT IN LIKE THAT.

Getting real tired of character motivations being reveals and not outright stated from the start.

ALSO WHAT EVEN THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT???!???

THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN REALLY NICE TO ACTUALLY SEE, OR YOU KNOW, TALK ABOUT BEFORE THIS MOMENT.

Anyway as I said, excising this bit entirely from my personal canon, Clan Wren is fine, they're just in hiding like all the other Mandalorian clans.

"And I... to serve a greater good." Ohhhhhhhhhhh I see what you did there, nice paralleling Baylan to Thrawn.

SABINE CHOOSES EZRA.

(I mean I knew it was coming because I was spoiled but still.)

Sabine, Sabine, my poor heartbroken babygirl, this is such a human choice, it's not the choice a Jedi should make but then Sabine isn't a Jedi, I maintain that this is all still playacting and cope that Ahsoka is indulging.

Sabine is falling into the classic Attachment trap but also there are no good choices here. She could try to destroy the map, but I seriously don't think it would work, and then Baylan would just kill her and take the map back anyway.

Maybe she could run but with their ship damaged she wouldn't make it far, she'd have to hide in the woods and avoid Shin and Baylan and whoever else she's stranded and fight them all off by herself for who knows how long until maybe Hera gets there. And she has no way of knowing if Hera's coming.

Oh ouch, I thought Sabine was having a "What have I done?" reaction to handing Baylan the map, but no, Shin is just choking her.

HERA MADE IT.

See it takes Baylan deliberate sustained direct contact with his lightsaber blade to destroy the map, no way was Sabine's blaster gonna do shit to it.

SABINE DID NOTHING WRONG, I WILL DIE ON THIS HILL.

Again, guys, this would have been the perfect sequence to have Zeb in.

Uhhhhhhhhh I would move away from the ring if I were y'all.

HO JEEZ.

OH BOY.

WELP.

Chopper sounds really unnerved.

THE WORLD BETWEEN WORLDS. THE STAR VOID.

Unless it's a weird-ass Force vision lol. Which is still possible.

Yeeeeeeeah I'm going with Force vision, Anakin should be blue and glowing, shouldn't he? Unless things work differently in here.

The Imperial March is not reassuring.

Okay well... that was a thing.

I'm starting to wish Deborah Chow had been showrunner for this, Filoni is doing... okay-ish (not really) but I really think this story needs and deserves a director willing to go all-in on the emotional resonance and beats of the story.

Which isn't to say the Kenobi show didn't have its problems (ho ho boy could I list the nitpicks and writing issues I had with it) but Ahsoka isn't quite reaching the highs it needs. Everything is way more subdued that I think it should be. I don't know how much of this is the writing, how much is the short mini-series format, how much is the cinematography or the directing.

THAT BEING SAID I AM HERE FOR SABINE MISSING EZRA SO MUCH SHE SACRIFICES HERSELF AND THE MAP FOR THE CHANCE TO FIND HIM.

See everything about her motivations makes so more sense if she's in love with him, sorry Filoni, the ship is still sailing.

Baylan got a bit more characterization here and got marginally more interesting, while Shin just... continues to be wet paper. RIP Marrok we hardly knew ye. Hope they explain the green mist shit soon.

Natasha's shoulders must be sore from carrying this show lol. Someone please let Sabine hug Ezra, she will feel so much better.

#i'm late i know #and have been spoiled to hell #but i am so here for all of this #well... some of this #star wars #ahsoka show #liveblog #spoilers #sabezra

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