#I read a lot of it but I'm not a big shipper of it

[lukeynewtssimp]

was reading comments on gossip blogs ( not dm page ) about the new nic pap pics & was surprised by how some of her fans are using that opportunity to shit & hate on luke I hate it so much the dude does nothing & get hate for no reason & I hate to say this but all the past few months made me just annoyed & I really don't want him & nic to interact ever again like her fans already harass & hate on him when he does & I'm just tired of it. I still like polin & they are amazing Penelope & Colin but I really can't act like seeing the endless hate he gets doesn't make me so upset btw this has nothing to do with shipping but I'm just tired of big part of nic fanbase & I feel the same about Jonny fanbase they have been weirdly racist towards Cynthia & I can't handle seeing stuff like this anymore. call me weak or whatever but I'm so over it being fan of people & have to pretend that I'm not affected nor upset by fans of their costars

I get the sentiment Anon. While I am a big fan of Lukey Newts, I am also a fan of Nic. I love them and wish them both all of the best.

But I do see what you’re saying, a lot of Nic solo stans unfortunately take any opportunity to hate on Luke and make every conversation about him. We could get into the psychology of that but I’d rather not as it’ll take the whole day lol.

I get your frustration and your feelings are completely valid. But it would be such a shame not seeing them interact or work together again. I love their friendship! In fact their beautiful friendship was the gateway drug that made me fall in love with both of them individually. We’ve already seen something similar happen with the To All The Boys I Loved Before fandom. Lana and Noah were subjected to some of the most toxic shipping there ever was, all while Lana was in a very serious relationship with her now husband. They both at some point admitted they had crushes on each other, and while it was cute, the shipping has now completely ruined their friendship and working relationship to the point where Lana said she would never work with Noah again because of that. And to be completely honest, it was really disappointing not seeing her with Noah in Xo Kitty. But I digress…

While the hate that both Luke and Nic are subjected to is now coming from their “solo stans”, it is all ultimately rooted in disappointed former shippers. And I would hate to see something like what happened with Lana and Noah to happen to Luke and Nic.

Xx

[chaos-potat]

Random thought I've been thinking

[miles-crow]

So... When I was rewatching X-men: Evolution I had a silly idea: what if Gambit and Pyro were a couple?

I kinda got carried away and created an AU. It's set in the early 2000s, Gambit's emo, Pyro is punk and they are teenagers. They're still Magneto's Acolytes, with Colossus and Sabretooth. I called this AU Fiery Rebels.

It's not set in the X-men: Evolution world, but it is inspired by it. And... There's more to it. I have a lot of sketches and concepts, the story's under development and I'm writing a short story, too.

If you don't like, please ignore me and scroll. This AU is a big source of comfort for me, so I don't want any negativity here 💜

Here's Pyro's ref, still in the making! :3

References are from Pinterest!

[plusultraetc]

interested to know what u think abt erasercloud as a ship … im a emic otp kinda guy so i have it easy LOL

🤝I am definitely an erasermic otp kinda gal (I am tied to the mast of this ship like Odysseus except I actually want to be here), but I think erasercloud is really cute!! And Painful :')

tbh I did read this ask and literally have to sit there like 'what DO I think of erasercloud as a ship???' bc I only ever really think about them as friends? Obv their dynamic is so compelling, romantic or platonic. It's about the belief. It's about the remembering. It's about the love, persevering. It's about how Shirakumo was one of the first people who really, vocally believed in Aizawa, and now Aizawa is one of the only people who believes in him. (That he's still here. That there's still hope.) It's about how they only knew each other for a short time, but the impact they had on each other is so important. Life-changing.

(link bc this is getting long lol)

On a less-emo note, I also think that Shirakumo is just a super likable character, and in-universe, I can totally see him being the kind of person that like... everyone has a little bit of a crush on. Like we've all met one of Those People. Maybe I'm a little biased, bc in undergrad I was embarrassingly smitten with a very funny, very social person who, what do you know, would NOT let me be in my little reclusive introvert bubble. I can say from experience that being singled out by a person like that is very. uwu. you know how it is. ANYWAY even in a world where they're not together I could very easily see little bby Aizawa having a fleeting crush on Shirakumo for a reason like that. TL;DR cute ship if you smile through the pain!!

(I also know that a lot of Marvel fans ship Captain America and the Winter Soldier and isn't that,, kiiind of what's going on with Aizawa and Kurogiri?? So there's that!)

[milfbrainrot]

have always been a bit more neutral to timebomb but it has rly surprisingly grown on me so much ;-; i think i do see it more from the tragedy angle and maybe more one-sided. i'm not sure jinx has ever been in a place to reciprocate the feelings i'm sure ekko has, but it is nice to think about for years down the line and in terms of what could have been.

[kyri45]

✨ShadowPeach Bio Parents Bio AU Q&A! 14/01✨

Welcome to the Q&A! A space where I can answer related or similar question about the Shadowpeach Bio Parents AU! If you submitted your ask anonimously, then you’ll have to check the whole post if it’s answered here, if it’s not, worry not! Your asks might have been used for a future comic or just in the queue~

@cloverthewanderer ha chiesto: Soooo….Imma be honest, I just found you on Instagram this morning with a small part of your Biodads au with the monkey bois. And I might’ve thought it looked so cool I went to Tumblr to binge read it and I just caught up. I love everything about the series and it is so fantastic!! Thank you for having so amazing I am going to obsess over it for awhile. I hope you have a wonderful day!!!! Drink lots of water and take care of yourself! (All of the colors and art is just divine!)

AAAWWWW thank you!!!

@sakuralotus03 ha chiesto: Now that MK and Red Son are officially dating, MK will tell Red Son that his name is Xiaotian and Red Son will call him that from now on (or else more pet names for the couple). 🔥🍜

Aww, I think technically Red Son also has like-a full name if we keep the chinese dub logic.(Hóng Hái-er)

@samfroggie ha chiesto: Okayokayokayokay- I never liked Shadowpeach, hell I still wouldn't call myself a shipper of it (or of any LMK ship aside from Freenoodles tbh) but you, sir, have made me fall in love with your AU and I can't let it go reeeeeee Honestly, it's the familial love aspect of this that makes me love it, as someone who is fully on board with MK having four dads, shipping aside lmao I'll always look at every image of MK cuddling with any of his parents and feel my heart swell, it's so freaking cute and the angst is just the nice sprinkling on top, I need more protective Mac in my life because I never see it! Also, question, how do you feel about ocs inserts? Like, are we allowed to make art about the AU and insert ocs into it? Asking because I have an oc who's more or less meant to be like MK's mother figure, and I mean, gotta give him more parental figures right?

I got no probs with OC inserts, as long as you credit the comic!

@aptainmilf ha chiesto: Need to tell you that a chapter of your comic singlehandedly pushed a friend of mine to finally watch the show and I would sincerely like to thank you for that lmao. It was the one with Wukong and Macaque at the hot springs

Ahaha welcome them to the club!

@dimensional-storm ha chiesto: Where did the inspiration for Wukong's 'War Form' come from? It's so big, beautiful!! I love the design so much :D

From the original novel, and the sun.

Anonimo ha chiesto: Question Was the spicynoodles kiss inspired by the caitvi prison kiss? :3

Eh, technically no? I also have the text I send my friend as proff, but I swear to you I planned that scene BEFORE S2 came out.

@silktealover ha chiesto: Hi kiri! I'm b33p and I want to ask if mac and my both have ears sensitive to fireworks,if so how do they react on holidays like fourth of July or new years? :3

Yes, I guess during Chinese New Year they would be really bothered by fireworks.

Anonimo ha chiesto: So you have a shadowpeach playlist? What are your favorite shadowpeach coded songs.

My favourite one is like- S1 vibe of Shadowpeach. which is Wonderful Nothing by Glass Annimals

@ayrza ha chiesto: A FUNNY QUESTION! I have also had this doubt with the canon but I want to know now with your AU Kyri... The heads of Wukong each think differently or is it the same wukong divided into three? Will each of them have a different personality? 🤔🤔🤔 Questions that don't let me sleep at night

Aww I think they could!! Like one head is more silly, one more chaotic, while the middle one is just generally more emotionally open and vulnerable.

@twilight-bai-he ha chiesto: Between Wukong and Macaque whose the better dancer 💃🏽 and Can mk dance ?

Macaque, and MK got mooves let's say (more disco than anything else)

@pyromaniacldrt ha chiesto: Heyyyy So You mentioned in other post that Macaque's name was "Six eared Macaque", right? Does that mean Mk's name is "Habringer of Chaos"?

Nope.

@super-may ha chiesto: Stop, if Macaque got hurt in his shadow form does it mean that his real form is not injured or anything? Like in battle with Wukong in the first season he didn’t seem to be hurt or angry about Wukong’s punches. But If he isn’t hurt and his shadow form is injured I don’t think that it will stay like this with Mk and it will return to the body. Oh no, DOES THAT MEAN THAT MK WILL BE ON HIMSELF NOW IN HIS SHADOW FORM OR SMTH? Or return with Macaque’s shadow to Macaque’s body and Mk’s plan will be ruined and he will need to make a choice between himself and the safety of his loved ones? OMG IM SO WORRIED PLS MAKE A HAPPY END WITH EVERYONE ALIVE AND HAPPY AND NOT UNDER THE WILL OF HEAVEN🙏🙏🙏

it's like Sword Art Online. If you die in the shadow world u die in real life.

@harb1ng3r0fch4os ha chiesto: Can I make/post edits of the shadowpeach bio parents au ?? :3 I’ll credit you ofc :]

yea sure!

@king-cinamon ha chiesto: Have you watched Nezha (2019)?

nope. I've read his story though.

@mkthemonkiekiddd ha chiesto: Totally random question (i just wanna know someones opinion on the matter since its been in my head for so long.), how would nezha react to social media, like, imagine someone gave him a phone, Would he even know what it is

He would probably be on the edge between "this is very uneducational" and "holy shit this is the best idea for arsony I ever saw"

@astro-lmk-enjoyer ha chiesto: Will we ever see Red Son wag his tail like a dog?? (That would be so cute!! + his parents would be shocked to to see him show such emotion) Oh and I make some art for you, I posted it- Bye <3

oh my- eh... no. I don't think so.

@askthezodiacs ha chiesto: May I use your AU in RPs?

yeah sure! As long as they aren't AI made.

[impactrueno]

Do you ship beetlebabes?

anon you're one of the three people i woke up to this morning asking if i ship beetlebabes LMAO. so i guess i better address it as thoroughly as i can.

shortest answer i can give you: no. but there's a lot more to it than just that. please read on

as long as it's not kid lydia, i don't care. i'm perfectly at peace with the ship and accept it as an integral part of the fandom (i'll get to that in a second) because this isn't like other ships of its kind. there's a small sector of the shipper side of the fandom that's cuckoo bananas and i don't fuck with that but that's more about those shippers in particular and not the ship itself. and yes, i'm okay with you reblogging my art and tagging it as "beetlebabes" on your blog for your own organization purposes.

i've been lurking the beetlejuice fandom for like 20 years now, so the ship doesn't faze me in the least. especially since i shipped them myself when i was younger, and this isn't a secret or anything i'm ashamed about, because i just never thought that deeply about it back then you know?? i just knew i enjoyed their dynamic in the cartoon a lot. and i'm pretty sure this is the case for most veteran beetlejuice fans because back then 90% of the fan content was beetlebabes. the ship pretty much carried the fandom all throughout the 90s and the 2000s, and the bulk of these shippers was always goth/goth-adjacent women into gothic romances who had crushes on BJ and projected onto lydia. NOT pedophiles or groomers or anything of the sort (and i need to reiterate this every time this stuff comes up because it's really important: do not ever judge whether or not someone is a groomer based only on what they ship because that's only going to put you at risk of being groomed by a "non-problematic" shipper. a groomer can use anything to groom you, even if you're not a minor. please always stay alert no matter what circles you're in. sorry for the PSA i've just seen some stuff and i worry)

the shift in the demographics of the fandom happened when the musical came out in 2019, which brought in a new beetlejuice canon with TONS of new fans who were more attuned to what makes a ship creepy and inappropriate (again, literally no one ever thought about this stuff before the 2010s.) so obviously this new wave of fans were horrified that the ship even existed in the first place. this created a pretty big split in the fandom between shippers and non-shippers. i've been referring to the topic as a hornets nest ever since and it's the reason why i largely keep to myself in my own little corner of the fandom.

as for my feelings about the ship...that shifted a lot through the years. shipped them, then i didn't. then i thought about them again, then i was like nah. eventually i realized that i'm very picky and particular about them and i was never going to feel at home on either side of the fandom so i had to figure out what kind of content i wanted to see, how i see their relationship and if i could create something with that myself since it seemed like no one else was doing it.

so here i am now. the stuff i'm making right now with adult lydia and beej from the cartoon is intended to be "platonic soulmates" since this is what i found to be the closest thing to what i always wanted to see more of, i find it comforting and beautiful and tragically underrated. people are free to interpret it however they wish though, as long as they don't expect me to meet their expectations, because i'll be doing my own thing regardless. i'm not stupid though, i know i managed to put them in a position where they probably could organically develop feelings for each other, and people are inevitably going to be drawn to that potential. so i can't blame the people commenting with "when will they kiss, i hope they get married, etc," i just hope they don't feel to disappointed to learn that i have no plans to explore that far lol (if that's all you were here for then uhhh sorry i guess)

if i ever choose to make something that is actually beetlebabes, i would tag it as such so people know and so people who don't want to see it can block it. maybe i'd even give ample warning beforehand because i wouldn't want to spring that on my followers who are uncomfortable with the ship out of the blue like that.

if you've read my beetleposts you probably already know that i like character studies and analyzing their dynamics, so i don't mind discussing the ship and how or why i think things would be one way or the other. perhaps i'm a bit too lax about it for some people, because i've been asked to tag a couple of analyses that seemingly dipped into beetlebabes territory without me even noticing. that made me realize that what qualifies as beetlebabes varies from person to person, which makes "do you ship beetlebabes" even harder to answer, because people see what they want to see in art. you can ask my non-shipper followers and most will say they don't see anything romantic in my art, but then you ask the shippers and it can be the total opposite. just as everyone does when they watch the source material.

so in conclusion

i don't ship them (any of the canon iterations) romantically but i'm chill with the whole thing as long as people aren't rude to each other in my comments (or to me for that matter) because i'm frankly way too old to give a fuck about these things or all the proship/anti/whatever nonsense

[sm-baby]

Did you know your Au got a mention in ColeyDoesThings new video??!

Here's the link btw at 2:11 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb6t5p5znbY

HELP ME HELP ME HELP ME HELP HELP HELP- /lh

@whimsquirksandstuff YALL ARE TELLING ME THIS AS IF COLEY ISNT ONE OF THE COOLEST PEOPLE EVER TO EXIST??!?! MF IVE BEEN WATCHING HER STUFF FOR YEARSSS!!!

COLEY YOU ARE AMAZING AND AWESOME!! If she's reading this, I'm sure she gets this a lot, but Thank you SO much for providing such a safe space for people to be weird and silly! You made me feel so unashamed and happy to just-- enjoy?? things??

Accept this sacrifice, queen!! Thank you for all your years serving the internet! I'm so graced to be-- known by you, let alone ACKNOWLEDGED and MENTIONED???

Thats all!! I just know that its a very once-in-a-lifetime thing to be acknowledged by Coley so I wanted to get it all out!! i hope all the other au makers as well just-- all the other creators that you mentioned get to shout their praises as well!! COLEY YOU ARE AW E SO ME !!

Haha!! I am also such a big Showtime (Caine x Pomni) shipper!! We have a server, and are well aware that we are a rarepair! so seeing that little bit on 3:07 made us SO INCREDIBLY HAPPPY HAHA!!! 💞💓💖

[olderthannetfic]

So, you mentioned low standards of research in podcasts. I don't listen to podcasts or watch a lot of videos about fandom analysis, but I have seen error corrections happening in the wild for what I have listened to, so I can only imagine how annoying it is when you know your shit.

Do you have any resources that come to mind as things everyone who likes fandom should be comfortable with, or specific essays on uniquely important fandoms (such as Sherlock Holmes or Star Trek) that everyone should read? Obviously the OTW resources are up there; what else?

Aside from resources, do you think there are any skills that are especially vital for getting to the bottom of fandom trends? Interview skills are probably pretty high up there.

Any pitfalls you see a lot of young fans falling into?

(I do a lot of fandom history research. It is the thing that gives me joy in fandom; other people like shipping or AUs, I like my little mini-anthropology sandbox and watching how ideas spread. I'm not necessarily good at it, but it's fun!)

--

Well... it's the usual things.

For example, a lot of fans claim to love fandom stats, but the ones that get passed around come from like three people. The people doing those stats, including me, don't usually have a statistics background, which doesn't automatically make them bad, but it really seems like people are just trusting anything with a pie chart.

We've recently seen people discover that those year-end AO3 ship stats have a seriously weird methodology. They don't show the thing their fans are actually trying to find out. People were pissed. But most of the time, they don't even bother asking what the methodology is or trying to do anything themselves.

There's far too much sitting back and waiting for some BNF to spoon feed one publicly-available information.

--

The big failings aren't usually the math itself but, of course, not knowing what question to ask, so it pertains to history research, not just stats.

You'll see a lot of stuff on shipping that looks at AO3 because AO3 shipping numbers are easy to pull... But AO3 shipping numbers don't just happen to be easy to pull: that is both an effect and a cause that is directly related to AO3's content. Someone interested in meta shouldn't be asking "What do AO3's numbers show?" as their first question. They should be asking "Why is this metadata available or not available and what does that mean on a sociological level?"

--

Thing two is the eternal I Have Apparently Never Heard of Anime problem. A fuckton of people theorizing about fandom trends seem to know fucking nothing about whole massive sectors of fandom or treat them as afterthoughts. This is okay if you're writing a history of Media Fandom. It is criminally stupid if you're trying to talk about what makes a piece of media have fic when another doesn't, what kinds of websites make fandoms take off, etc. Those kinds of broad questions need a broad understanding of what's out there.

It's not anime-specific, and I'm not asking for a high degree of knowledge.

I have routinely had people tell me that best friend ships and mystery/crime as a genre aren't popular, and that's why AO3 has this or that pattern... Meanwhile, buddy cops are the bedrock of oldschool slash fandom and make up basically all of the longest-running Western m/m fandoms that aren't Star Trek. CSI slop tends to have legions of future canon het shippers, and they make plenty of fanworks. It's just that some of this is more visible on FFN or older places, not AO3.

I'm always seeing things like someone speculating about how this and that anime fandom thing or bit of mid-00s FFN community drama led to this other thing on AO3, not realizing that AO3 came out of LJ Western fandom slash culture. To them, FFN is so central that it must be the main reference point, not the bajillion and one archives AO3 founders ran or Usenet or mailing lists or LJ.

I once saw someone asking on twitter about where a prominent Ranma fic might have been posted in the mid-90s. People claiming "My professor is an authority!" came out of the woodwork in droves to blither about K/S zines and then LJ. Not only was this entirely wrong, but the right answer was blindingly obvious if you knew enough to interpret the google results. I can only assume that the person tweeting had never heard of Usenet and didn't recognize the acronym for the big anime fanfic group that literally everything like this was first posted to.

I'm talking people insisting that fandom only goes for white characters when it's very obvious that fandom goes for majority leads who are not othered. All the bawwing in the world about "People assume anime characters are white" won't get rid of The Untamed or Kpop thirsters or whatever.

I'm talking sweeping pronouncements about gender and fanfic writers where the person hasn't even heard of FIMFiction or SpaceBattles or Dark Lord Potter cheesefests.

I've been in fandom for a long time, but I wasn't in all these parts, and I wasn't around for 80s zines. You don't need deep knowledge until you pick a research topic. But it's shocking how little shallow, broad knowledge a lot of people have when they're writing their Theory Of All Of Fandom History.

--

People are stupid as shit about survivorship bias, and fandom history is no exception. They're also dumb in the opposite direction, assuming that the thing they like now has always existed in this exact form.

For example, someone got mad at Fanlore for supposedly not documenting the history of f/f zines. Others have searched and searched for the zines of their old show they got into last year and are bewildered to not find any. The reality is that Fanlore editors are attempting to document every Media Fandom zine and have combed through old adzines looking for any mention of anything. Because of the methods of distribution—because it was expensive—small fandoms often had no zines at all.

Femslash fandom doesn't seem to have gotten enough critical mass to do much until Xena. The internet has really democratized things, but even the early internet was still somewhat in that old mindset where only certain popular things have a fandom. I think Yuletide itself, which started in 2003, really helped spread the idea of rare-but-existing fandoms being a thing. FFN and perhaps some other multifandom archives like Media Miner played a huge role.

Nowadays, we think of fic as just how you respond to media, any media, even if there are only two fics for that one car commercial, but that isn't how people saw things in every era—or at least it's not how fandom infrastructure worked. A lot of the time, the big hosting spots were single-fandom archives, often with restrictive content rules. Finding somewhere to post a m/m/f OT3 fic used to be hard. Never mind early zines when photocopiers didn't even exist yet and you had to sell out your print run of 500 to make a go of it.

All good research starts with a lot of preliminary investigation to figure out what you're even trying to look for.

Actually bothering to look for fans talking about their own history or casually chatting with your interview subjects before the formal interview will put a person miles ahead of many of the cringeworthy fandom ~papers~ I've seen.

The biggest mistake people make is going "Okay, these numbers aren't perfect, but some numbers are better than no numbers".

Bullshit.

As soon as there's a pie chart of the false numbers, everyone's brain turns off and they never look at the chart subtitle, never mind the research notes.

Bad numbers are often worse than no numbers.

Look at the logic behind the methodology first. Look at the social context. Basic understanding of human nature and familiarizing oneself with the shape and hangout locations of a community will get you most of the way there before you sit down for a specific interview or try to collect any specific numbers.

--

None of this is a fandom thing. Research is research. It's just that most people think "research" means watching a tiktok that the algorithm likes and were never taught how to evaluate a source for reliability.

Evaluating sources is a skill. I had explicit lessons on it in school. Lots of people don't, and that sucks.

Honestly, watching the more thoughtful debunking content on non-fandom topics, like Miniminuteman's stuff on pseudo-archaeology or Dan Olson's... everything, is a good window into critical thinking, and that's most of what's missing from bad fandom history.

--

But more than any of that, more is more. Not the crap stats, but the narrower, more personal accounts, the interviews. The more fans who investigate their little corner that isn't the same old AO3 site-wide "Why is there so much m/m?" ship stats or the same canned "Everything comes from K/S" history, the better.

What I object to is not amateur efforts but efforts that pull from the same small pool of data or that just reblog a tiny handful of supposed authorities.

--

If people are going to read just one thing... hmm... go try to look up a history of rec.arts.anime.creative, not because I think it's the most important fandom history out there but because it's at the nexus of things a lot of current fandom history work miss.

[nekropsii]

Hello! First of all, love your work. Wonderful takes and analysis on the alpha trolls, and also i’m a big fan of sovstuck - both the text and the awesome cool art. I love that every character gets introduced with their own unique artstyle, each oozing with character :)

I wanted to ask, - and please believe that i’m asking in good faith, - about your proship dni. I’ve been seeing discourse about ‘pro/anti ship’ for ages now, but i cannot for the life of me understand what the hell either side stands for. First i hear it’s about abusive or problematic (pedo/incest) ships in general, then it’s about the difference of portrayal/endorsement of those things, then it’s something else entirely and i can never fucking understand what the hell the issue is and why it is so heated.

By no means i’m asking you to speak for the whole discourse or even for the entire ‘side’ of it - if there’s one thing i got, it’s that no one can agree on their definition of what ‘their side’ stands for. But i would like to know what meaning you put into the terms, and what kind of ‘proship’ you would like to not interact with you; i trust that you know what you believe in and are able to put it to words in a way that makes sense and doesn’t contradict itself or common sense, as i sometimes see :”)

I.. understand that since the topic is so divisive, you may get a ton of bullshit in your ask box and notes, should you choose to answer this, both from people who disagree and those who choose to misinterpret what you say. So feel free to ignore this ask if you don’t want to deal with that. Still, i do hope i can someday gain some clarity on this topic haha.

Best wishes!! thanks for what you do :)

Hello! Thank you so much, the compliments mean a lot! They really keep me going, lol!!

First of all, congratulations on formulating the most normal ask adjacent to this topic. Since it's so god damn touchy, people have a tendency to start throwing rocks no matter what "side" they're on, and no matter if they know what the hell they're talking about or not. Frankly, some of the ruckus surrounding this circus act is embarrassing. On both ends. Second of all, while this isn't something I'm an expert in, I do know more than I'd like, so I'd be happy to give my perspective, even if it's potentially a bit limited/flawed.

Thirdly, I'm putting this under a cut, for anyone who doesn't want to read all that.

Content Warning: Discussions of Shipping Discourse, Sexual Assault, Abuse, Grooming, Incest, and Pedophilia.

Let me start this by defining what the Relevant Terms mean:

Shipping: The act of pairing two or more Characters together. Though the term is derived from "Relationship", and therefore is at its core - technically, theoretically - a Neutral Term, it - conversationally, colloquially - carries extremely heavy Romantic Connotations, with a strong implication that said Romance is found to be appealing - typically in the sense of being either Cute, or Sexy. Defining this is not me trying to condescend you - One of the key questions in this discourse is what it means to "ship" something, and whether or not the term implies the shipper is condoning the material inherent to the ship.

ProShip: Essentially means "All For All Shipping". It's the personal, discourse-based identity label equivalent to the phrase "Ship And Let Ship". There's a common misconception floating around that the "Pro" in "ProShip" stands for "Problematic", rather than simply being the positive antonym to the prefix "Anti". While I find this to be a failure of basic deductive reasoning, I can also understand how the conclusion was reached - Proshippers are most commonly associated with "Problematic Content"/"Problematic Ships", and they do tend to take pride in being "Problematic" themselves. Either way, the word "Problematic" is highly associated with them and often reclaimed by them. They also call themselves "Anti-Antis" (horribly stupid label, by the way), and "ComShip(pers)", with the "Com" being short for "Complex". To my knowledge, ComShip is a sect specifically trying to get away from the baggage that the term "ProShip" holds, and away from the very real predator problem within the ProShip Community. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

AntiShip: Essentially means "Against Certain Forms of Shipping". It actually used to be a term for people who were against specific individual ships, rather than a blanket discourse label - for example, rather than someone identifying as just an "Antishipper", they would typically label themselves as "Anti-VrisMeen", or a "VrisMeen-Anti", or whatever their focus was. An important thing to note is that Antis trend Young, and they trend Traumatized. They are typically Teenagers, and their stances are largely informed by their discomfort watching Adults Sexualize Characters who share their age or younger, and discomfort watching people Sexualize some kind of Trauma they've been through - and considering their general ages, it's not unlikely that that Trauma is either Fresh or Ongoing. This is not always the case, but it's such a large amount of the AntiShip crowd, and it's acknowledged so little, that it's worth mentioning. It's a very important piece of context to me.

The general Belief Systems of both sides, as they currently stand, are as follows:

ProShip: ==> Never Harass Anyone Over Their Ships: This is the bones of their beliefs, and where everything started. Essentially, it's rude and unnecessary to send people Harassment over a Ship they enjoy, because not only could you be doing something better with your time, but also it can be pretty difficult to tell the "How/What/Why" of someone's interest in such material. ==> All Forms of Shipping Should Be Allowed, No Matter The Content: This is the meat of their beliefs, and also where the arguing starts. It's exactly what it says on the tin - Anything Goes, including Rape, Abuse, Incest, and Pedophilia. This is why the label is so touchy - many people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of Fandom going back to its habit of uncritically normalizing + romanticizing Rape, Abuse, Incest, and Pedophilia. Part of this is due to the fact that this uncritical normalization has led to genuine, tangible harm on people in Fandom Spaces, particularly Minors. ==> Being Problematic Is Based: The skin of their beliefs. Many people wrap up Shipping Discourse in terms that make it sound like engaging in it is Political Praxis, somehow. While your stance on Shipping Discourse can certainly be telling of your Political Beliefs, in the way that your stance on literally anything can be telling of that, calling Shipping Discourse on its own some kind of Radical Political Stance is... Deeply silly, and also keeps leading to people saying "Being into Incest/Pedophilia is Queer Nature", like, unironically. I keep seeing this happen. This part of it tends to be very... Spite-driven. ==> Fiction Is Not Reality: Basically their catchphrase - nothing that happens in fiction is real, and therefore has no tangible effect on reality.

AntiShip: ==> Please Tag Your Content Appropriately And Keep It Out Of The Reach Of Minors: The bones of their beliefs. Self Explanatory, typically followed up with "and if you can't do that, don't post/make it at all". To further illustrate this, I'd like to spark any reader's memory of the times where you couldn't Google search "Fluttershy" without being lambasted with hardcore porn. No additions of "R34", or "NSFW", just "Fluttershy". There was no SFW Filters. You just had to fucking fight for your life. Being a child on the Internet is and was extremely rough. There wasn't any Official Tag Filtering on Tumblr until... I think 2017. It was dark. ==> Abuse/Rape/Incest/Pedophilia Should Not Be Considered "Shipping": The meat of their beliefs. Essentially, these are extremely heavy, delicate topics meant to be treated with respect and tact, or not handled at all. This is not possible in Shipping Content. At least, not as we currently understand it, and will likely remain understanding in that way for years to come. They argue that Fanfiction is not ever going to be on par with Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita. Which is true. They also argue that it's impossible for most Fanfictions to treat these sensitive subjects with any respect, which is... Dubious, but also fair, considering the Sturgeon's Law of it all. ==> Ewwwww...: The skin of their beliefs. Disgust. It's a whole lot of disgust. Again, worth reiterating that the bulk of AntiShippers are quite Young and/or Traumatized, and the content they are reacting to tends to be Extreme, so a gut response of disgust is... Honestly, healthy. No 15 Year Old should be stumbling upon art of a child getting frisky with their dad and going "hell yeah, brother!". Though I wish they'd handle their disgust with more tact, I find that it's just... A fair response, given their age, what their backstory tends to be, and what content they tend to be reacting to is. ==> Fiction Affects Reality: Not necessarily their catchphrase, but definitely their counterpoint to the catchphrase of ProShippers. They do not say Fiction is real, just that it does literally have a tangible effect on reality, and point to cases where this is observable. The impact Jaws had on real life sharks is a favorite, as is The Birth of a Nation, and The Turner Diaries. And, of course, the ways that the works put out by ProShippers has tangibly affected the lives of others, especially children.

It is worth noting, I am neither of these things. I do not identify as a ProShipper, nor do I identify as an AntiShipper. I identify as a Horror Writer. I have "DNI: ProShip" in my bio because their stances make me the most uncomfortable, and I have been victimized personally by members of their crowd and the result of their beliefs.

I was Groomed by an Adult ProShipper when I was 14 Years Old. She used her ideologies as a ProShipper to excuse herself and the (sexual) content she forced me to Roleplay with her, and used it to pressure me into writing more and more extreme content. I did not want to do it even at the time - it made me uncomfortable - but she made the idea of saying "No" to her... Quite scary, and like I was the one in the wrong for being uncomfortable with it. After all, Fiction Isn't Reality, right? I am not the only person I know with this experiences. I have met and spoken to countless - and I mean countless - individuals who have had similar experiences with that crowd. The sheer distrust kids and teens tend to have towards them is learned through that crowd's propensity towards grooming them. Because the celebration and normalization of that content breeds comfortability with "the real deal", and comfortability with harboring predators.

I'm sure some ProShippers have noble intentions, and don't realize what the controversy is about. I'm sure some of them are deeply out of the loop, and still think it only means "Being Anti-Harassment". But I do not care enough to give people the chance, just... For the sake of my own sanity. You understand, I'm sure. I do not think that this rift between worlds is ever going to get closed, or that these sides are going to experience amicability, because the question is nuanced and about morality itself, and one side is full of defensive, traumatized teenagers trying to keep themselves and their friends safe from what they are perceiving as legitimate threats to their safety, and the other side is full of people who just wanna jerk it to weird porn.

I'm not personally comfortable with, like, any self-identified ProShipper being near me, just due to my own experiences. Some might try to identify me as one against my will, due to the fact that I am Anti-Harassment and a Horror Writer unafraid to touch upon every single one of the aforementioned sensitive topics, but... I am simply not one, because I don't identify that way, I don't believe in their beliefs, and they creep me out, lol.

My beliefs are that people should be able to write about whatever they want, as long as they handle things with the appropriate amount of care, and as long as they keep things tagged appropriately. I think that harassing people for shipping Stridercest in fucking 2024 is lame because you could be doing literally anything else with your time, and I think shipping Stridercest in fucking 2024 is lame because you could be doing anything else with your time. Like, come on, man, it's not even interesting. They're not even doing anything interesting with it. Where are the themes? There are no themes. It's just brothers mackin' on each other whitely. Come on.

No topic should be off limits, but you should at least give it the care and respect it deserves, and you should make it interesting. Nothing is interesting on its own. Rape is not interesting on its own. Incest is not interesting on its own. Abuse is not interesting on its own. Pedophilia is not interesting on its own. Taboo subjects are not interesting on their own. They're mundane evils that happen literally every day to regular people. In writing, they need to be paired with themes, and, hopefully, with good writing. People who have been through these things deserve not only to have their trauma represented, but handled with care, and also for it to be interesting to read. They deserve to have options. They deserve to have good literature to chew on, to help them digest and cope with their own trauma. It's difficult to do that when you feel invisible to everything but the camera lens of a Fetish Pornographer, and I know many people who are suffering with the fact that their traumas seem to only ever be represented or referenced in shitty pornography.

Sure, some people cope with their own trauma by sexualizing it. I know that's the case for some ProShippers, and their reason for being within that group. But it's certainly not everyone's method of coping, and it shouldn't be the only option... Which is why I'm advocating for safe, non-fetishized exploration of extreme themes.

I think the reason why the discourse is so unclear is because "ProShip" and "AntiShip" aren't very tangible, definite belief systems, and also the talking points are evolving and maturing over time. A few years ago, the beliefs of "Antis" definitely broadly leaned more heavily towards total rejection of those themes being present in any fiction, but their arguments seem to have matured lately into "the problem is the nature of the depiction, not the presence of depiction itself".

That's all I can think of saying right now that wouldn't just be me walking in circles. And don't worry, I can definitely take the hit. I'm not sure what here could be very arguable other than semantics, or maybe a history lesson or two.

Thank you for the ask! Hope this helps!

[commander--wake]

commander--wake/beyonces_fiancee's top ten TLT holiday exchange 2024 rec list!

these are my top 10 best fics and art from the locked tomb holiday exchange 2024 season! I liked & loved a lot more than 10 and haven't read the whole collection yet, but these were the top 10 that leapt out to me thus far as most exciting, unusual or unexpected, made me think or expanded my brainpan, or simply so masterfully done I couldn't resist!

im gonna edit this post once author reveals happen so everyone can say yayayayay fanfic friends ^_^

fragile eyes by Marenke (fic)

my amazing gift has to top the list!!!!!!!! this is a disturbing john/harrow lolita-inspired au that feels like an eerie slow burn despite only being 1200 words. I love how the author transfers john's canonical illegitimate godhood into an illegitimate pseudo-priesthood, grooming harrow into his lone congregant and... well... read the fic ok. so thrilled with this rich interpretation of my simple prompt :)

polaroid from the sexy parties by crandairy @crandairy (art)

amazing mercy & cassy art so shaped!!!! I love the tomboyish/geeky cassy with sixthish glasses and the lusciously maned mercy! don't forget to click to the second chapter for even more goodies!

very demure, very mindful by anonymous [forever anonymous sadly!] (fic)

pyrrha/nona problematic Cohort-officer-and-secretary roleplay. pyrrha is a bad bad man and nona, well, whatever nona wants, nona gets. sexayyyyyy

drama! in the erebos rpf fandom by forjodssake (fic)

ao3 works page au of john/sarpedon and then some, tags and comments from the tower princes & others included. need i say more just click it. big LOLs found here

practice makes perfect by Mr_Fizzles (fic)

john/mercymorn/augustine dios apate major timeloop. quite dark and tragic, to my delight! I'm not much of a one for timeloops and other unusual aus like that but I'm so glad I gave it a chance, mercy & augustine's strategies and reactions kind of broke my heart and johnnnnn rotten boy

this secondhand living, it just won't do by YeeHawmura (@procrastinationaccount) (fic)

of course the ianthe/coronabeth flesh magic pwp is also a biting & intelligent character study of both sisters and their fucked-up relationship. tridentariicest shippers queens of the fandom tbh

on a distant riverbed by UserIsMe (@irenesusername) (art)

u guys already know i'm a sucker for anything g1deon, especially one that includes pyrrha/respects his relationship with her & with death. this one probably has the best ratio of minutes required to enjoy:amount of times stabbed in the heart for me. bonus cute cowboy in chapter 2

the bomb and the beast by Sarsaparilla (@sarsaparillaswords) (fic)

griddlehark beauty & the beast/gideon raised by BOE au. gideon voice on point, BOE names for days which is totally my kryptonite, and the prose is just that little bit loose and uncontrolled where you know you're in for a wild, juicy, funny ride. everyone go comment so the author does a chapter 2!!!

clinically insane & the next virgin mary by rnanqo (@rnanqo) (fic)

ianthe/john character study of my favorite scrungly rat. my comment: "something about Ianthe always being the second-favorite child, in her mortal life with Corona and then in her immortal saint life with Harrow and then in her immortal saint life redux with Kiriona, just cracks me the fuck up. Ianthe you'll never get Daddy's candy!!!!"

settle for a ghost by Raxheim (@theriverbeyond) (fic)

if you got me not only reading but RECCING a pyrrha parenting gideon nav fic you know you're onto something. the translation to modern au is very intelligently done, the subtle backstory sprinkle controlled and clever and scary, pyrrha/g1deon numnums for me, and the growing pyrrha & babygid relationship just kills. haven't commented on this one yet bc i need to chew the beef jerky some more :)

(honorable mention: haven't read yet but am HYPED AF) [edit: HAVE READ AND IT'S FUCKING INCREDIBLE]

veins running fire by duplicitoussluts (fic)

john/harrow victorian arranged marriage omegaverse with a jane eyre theme. I KNOW RIGHT???? 22k is so scary long 2 me but I fear I must read because any author whose unhinged beautiful mind could come up with such a wonderful idea must surely be a phenomenal writer, aside from which people have already talked up the fic exceedingly! so, looking fwd to it!!!

[gwynethberdarasupremecy]

Hi! I want to start by saying that I'm an Elriel, but my question is meant with literally zero hate. I don't want to start any more conflict, and I hope this doesn't come across like that. I'm just very curious about something.

When Gwynriels talk about Gwynriel's/Gwyn's book, what do you mean exactly? Because I really don't understand. Are you saying you think the next book will have Gwyn/Az as main characters (like Nessian in ACOSF), or that it'll be another Nesta book and therefore Gwyn will have a very important role in it and we'll see her relationship with Az grow "in the background" (as in we won't get their pov, just Nesta's)? Because ACOTAR (as a series) is at its core about the Archeron sisters. Or do you think there will be an Elucien book (so every sister will have a book) and then a spin-off/novella about Gwynriel with their pov?

I'm genuinely curious about this because I never saw any further explanation on the topic. Also, English isn't my first language so I really hope I don't sound accusing/aggressive or anything like that. Forgive me if that's the case and thank you for reading/answering 😊

hi! great question! you don’t sound aggressive at all don’t worry! i like to have normal civilized discussions about books, so thanks for asking your question:)

first i want to start by saying that it has never been stated by sjm or sjms team that the series is at its core about the archeron sisters. i don’t know where this idea came from. the only thing we know, is that there will be 2 more novels, and one novella. sjm has said that each book will follow one couple and their journey/story. so it’s literally impossible for the series to be only about the archeron sisters since we need at least 1 more novel about a character who is not an archeron.

i’m not saying elain won’t get a book. it’s been very clear that she will. i’m just not sure her book will be the next one, or the one after that, to wrap up the series. sjm said, when talking about the spin offs, that she wants to tell elains story, mors story and azriels story. i think it’s very interesting that she said it like that. why separate azriel and elain if they have the same story to tell? if they share the same book? i think one book will be elains (with lucien as other MC) and the other one will be azriels (with Gwyn as Mc). we could get the novella about mor (and emerie?).

i think where you, and a lot of other elain and azriel shippers get confused, is that it may seem we think it will be gwyns book. while i think gwyn will be the supporting love interest, i think it’s very clearly going to be azriels book. just like how cassian was the second pov/MC, but it was still clearly nestas book.

i’ve also seen the argument that sjm doesn’t write male centered book, which is why azriel won’t get a book. this also isn’t true. she wrote tower of dawn, a tog book, which was centered around chaol and advertised as such.

i think that if there’s one male character in acotar that has to get their own book it’s azriel. azriel has so many problems and issues with self worth/obsessions etc. that i think he really needs his own book. his issues are too big to be a supporting main character (like how cassian was with nesta). gwyn also has healing to do of course, but it’s not as drastic and big as azriel. her healing is the perfect amount for the supporting love interest.

same with lucien. lucien also needs to go on a healing journey, but elain has bigger issues, which is why the book will be centered around her.

it’s why i don’t think azriel and elain work, writing wise. they both have too much healing to do on their own, that if it’ll be elains book, azriels healing will be drowned out and if it’ll be azriels book, elains healing will be drowned out.

i hope this explains jt well. feel free to ask another question or message me :)

[cruyuu]

Since the official art of them came out, I've seen some very hilarious takes about Yuuji and Sukuna. Some people coping HARD. "Yuuji is forcing him" Well gee, since when can he force Sukuna to do anything? Or is Sukuna that powerless against him? Even in Yuuji's domain, Sukuna didn't have to catch a damn crayfish or do archery, but he did, mind you all this happened BEFORE Yuuji said he could kill him (and even when this happened, he had support from Nobara). He's like, "ahggg fine I GUESS I can do this" lmao. In the official art, he's the one leading the dance. For what reason? Gege didn't have to draw them with their fingers intertwined, with Sukuna's arm around Yuuji's waist, and yet. Why have all this with the snow falling around them? (Yes the cat might be pandering, that's another valid reason) Right after we have the epilogue with Yuuji saying he still likes the snow and it's special to him?

"B-but he doesn't like Yuuji!" Well Sukuna called Yuuji by his full name when he was turning to dust. Have we forgotten that that's an indication that Sukuna respects someone/a sorcerer? Is it not significant going from "brat" to "Itadori Yuuji"? I'm guessing this does not apply to Yuuji then lmao. Also, I'm not saying Sukuna loves him or likes him like he loves, idk, fighting. But he at least recognized Yuuji. Another thing is that people forget that Sukuna usually says one thing and does another. Isn't this what Mahito implied? He literally called Sukuna a liar and he was like "Yeah so lmao". Their change/development is subtle, but it's there. Isn't the end of the fight an indication of this? Actually, Sukuna had an existencial crisis during this BECAUSE of Yuuji lol. For all his faults, I think some of Gege's strongest points in JJK are Yuuji and Sukuna. Sorry for the long rant btw!

Hi anon! Let me rant along with you!

I'm not on that app but I did see several posts here on Tumblr about how "there's suddenly so many skit shippers don't these ppl know that's a horrible ship" like bruh. Do you not realize Yuuji came from a brain inhabiting his mother's corpse? That Yuuji isn't even human? Are they not aware they're reading a work which isn't suitable for children?

Most are coping because sukuita is a problematic ship yet it's getting a lot of spotlight. Hell, Gege had drawn them dancing in the snow together on love day. "Yet they're related!! How could Gege :(". Well... they could lol. They clearly don't give a shit (and I say good for them!)

That's also the big issue to these ppl. Idk if they ship Yuuji with someone else and are mad that his "reincarnated uncle (grand uncle)" got the lovely romantic official art. Let's also not forget that Yuuji practically promised his forever to Sukuna. The finger that he's missing is literally the marriage finger. Am I to blame for that? Nope. Gege wrote it like that and I'm just pointing it out.

Dunno why that's stopping them from shipping their Yuuji ships. If canon's an issue, just focus on non-canon. No need to go shit on skit shippers lmfao

As for the arguments you've mentioned:

"Yuuji is forcing him"

Yuuji had also forced him to become so obsessed with tearing down his ideals and forced him to be in his close proximity while he's fighting him. He also forced him to call him brat and constantly think about him even while fighting others. The power Yuuji holds is, after all, that strong. He even forced him to change his own viewpoint and got him to hold his waist in that official art because he's now capable of using abilities which allow him to control Sukuna's actions. 👍

"B-but he doesn't like Yuuji!"

I think the right sentence is: he's obsessed with hating him so much so that it can't even be about hate anymore, it has to be that he's just in denial and that he loves him. There's a thin line between love and hate, after all. Who in their right mind spends so much time talking and thinking with delight about how someone-who-they-hate's abilities had improved? Who in their right mind changes their ways after their enemy confesses that they'd like to spend forever with them?

Their change/development is subtle, but it's there. Isn't the end of the fight an indication of this? Actually, Sukuna had an existencial crisis during this BECAUSE of Yuuji lol. For all his faults, I think some of Gege's strongest points in JJK are Yuuji and Sukuna. Sorry for the long rant btw!

Nice points and no need to be sorry, anon. It's hilarious how some ppl can't see it and are actively ignoring it lol. These two are tied to each other and are totally in love and to say otherwise is just ridiculous imo.

[chnqin]

I saw that leftover ships post going around again where everyone was tagging Jiang Cheng (hilarious) and it got me thinking about what the preferred Jiang Cheng/x ship is for people who don't really care who he ends up with.

So I have made a poll for people with no particularly strong ship opinions for Jiang Cheng. If you are a big Jiang Cheng x whoever shipper this is not the poll for you (although I could make one if you want).

[ominus-potato]

I'm sorry if I sound a bit ignorant/oblivious/rude but what caused the Mr. Puzzles X Mario ship? I see it everywhere and the art is adorable but I don't know what started it? Was it a specific scene? Some dialogue I missed? Or is it a crack ship?

(once again I'm sorry if any of this sounds rude whatsoever, I'm bad at wording things)

Not rude at all dude! Thanks for asking!

For me (and for most people in assuming) ig Marware started as a crackship since it’s really funny to imagine the big bad Mr Puzzles ended up swooning for the dumbass Italian that is Mario.

It’s also playing on the dynamic of smart logical character x the biggest idiot you can imagine. They are complete polar opposites in terms of design, personality, body type, height, brains, EVERYTHING!! They are complete opposites of one another. So ofc they gotta be shipper. Also, it’s great potential for funny moments and I just love making funny comics!

In terms of actual scenes, there is this scene from “no tv makes Mario go coo coo crazy” where he gives CPR to Mr Puzzles and clings to his face, calling him “Mi Amour” which translates to “My Love”. Mario even is willing to kill his own brother so that Mr Puzzles comes back to life. Ofc, Mario was being dramatic and didn’t actually KNOW it was a live person he was saying that to but it’s worth noting.

In terms of actual shipping material, I like to imagine that whilst Mario spend hours and hours watching TV (Mr Puzzles) alone, Puzzles eventually grew to appreciate his time with the Italian. He was the only person who truly loved all of his shows no matter how stupid they were. Mario is too dumb to form an opinion on a TV show so to him, all of Puzzlevision was worth 5 stars. In fanon, I think that would have meant a lot to Mr Puzzles and he would have then developed feelings for Mario that way.

Of course, he would get infuriated by Mario at times, especially when he was messing with his ratings. But despite constantly screwing up his 5 stars, Mr Puzzles kept putting Mario as a lead role in every single one of his productions. I dunno about you but Mr Puzzles to me seems smart enough to know that if a character is screwing up his ratings, he shouldn’t recast him. Yet he did. Every single time.

Let’s not forget that Mario absolutely loves TV. He doesn’t care about how evil the TV is. When he was chasing down Mr Puzzles, it was purely because he wanted to watch more TV. He wasn’t trying to save his friends in the beginning because he didn’t even realise they were in danger. And once everyone was safe, the very first thing Mario did was go and watch TV.

Since Mario can be such a nuisance, I love to imagine their interactions just being Mario bothering Mr Puzzles and him being unable to say no to him because deep down he knows he loves him. It’s playing into Mr Puzzles being such a pathetic villain that even the dumbest meme we of the crew can handle him easily.

He’s just an evil genius who loves his dumbass Mario 🥰

Anyway yeah! That’s more or less everything. It’s mostly a crackship but to me, I genuinely love it and it may possibly be my favourite SMG4 ship. Thank you for reading!! Take these Marware screenshots on your way out.

[thecoolerliauditore]

Sorry, not-so-amicable-exes anon here again just cause I saw your big toxic fh breakdown post again cause a friend wanted to read it and we were tlking about it- unimportant, sorry, we just had a thought. Because I've seen some anti-toxic shippers act like this interpretation is out of spite or some intentional thing shippers of other jimmy ships made up (specifically ranchers usually), but the timeline and accusation is all wrong. Like I don't remember ever seeing anyone even talk about this interpretation until post-liml? And it was very hesitantly and apologetically. There was a fic or two before this but most people even the people who enjoyed it expressed discomfort or concern at its existence and that's how most people react to them even to this day.

But I remember when I saw that first post I was like, "Oh thank god, someone else also thought that!" It felt like before that there was scenes in their POV that only happened when I watched 3l because no one talked about them, or wrote them very differently to what happened. And I saw some other people saying the same thing. I think the post even got deleted a few days later, too. It seemed to me like a lot of people had quietly independantly come up with the interpretation as far back as 3l itself, but stayed quiet until recently to avoid upsetting anyone or we all thought we were the only ones who saw it that way. I know I tend to hesitate to write characters negatively because it feels a bit wrong to do that when the ccs are friends, even if I think it would be interesting. I wonder how many people feel that way also?

But I guess what I mean to say is it seems to me that a lot of people independantly have been thinking it since 3l or ll and the only reason it started popping up in dl is because it was the next big Jimmy ship from the big shipping season, and people werent really willing to even talk about it for a whole other season because they were scared of being seen as negative.

But!! I just really think it's neat, I really like this narrative for Scott and Jimmy. It's rare to be able to get stories where people have problems and break up and move on to new relationships and grow from them. It makes sense because they're the first season couple and they've grown further and further apart as seasons go on.

Even people I see who don't like fh don't seem to WANT to talk about it, they only bring it up when asked, and try to be respectful. Maybe I've not seen something happening somewhere else? I just wish I didn't have to spend most of my energy when writing quadruple checking that I'm not making Scott a bad guy and emphasising Jimmy's faults just so people reading know for certain I'm writing it this way because I'm legitimately interested in exploring this interpretation of them, and I'm not one of "those" writers. But I'm starting to wonder how many of "those" writers there actually are. (At the risk of comparing petty fandom drama to a serious topic, but it feels a lot like I'm back on 2016 tumblr assuring people I'm not one of "those" enbies or "those" aces, trying not to get pushed out.)

I'm guessing anyone who doesn't care for toxic fh probably already has you blocked, but if there is anyone like that who does see this: Hi! I also love flower husbands a lot! They just aren't my fluffy comfort ship, I like headcanoning them as divorced and imperfect because I think it makes them more interesting to write. I love being able to write characters who don't find the love of their life immediately but each relationship still shapes them into a new person. Sometimes I like to imagine their relationship as more mild and silly, and sometimes more dramatic and intense, I'm not a one-headcanon person! But their divorce is what really inspired me about them so I like writing about it. I don't want to stop anyone from enjoying them how they enjoy them and have no interest in making people who would be upset by my content to read it, so I try to tag it correctly! I'd like to be able to write my stories without walking on eggshells wondering if someone thinks I only wrote something I worked really hard on and cared a lot about just to spite them or because I'm secretly homophobic while writing about men kissing, just because my interpretation is different. It makes me scared to put Scott in my fics at all and contributed to my writers block for fics with them in it. I think Scott gets treated unfairly by certain people too, but that's not what I'm trying to do, I wouldn't write about him if I did!

(Also sorry if my paragraphs are strange, I'm not used to writing on mobile or pouring my thoughts out.)

Hi hello welcome back!! Please don't apologize I love long asks, especially long asks about scott smahor. The fact that you pulled up that toxic fh post and read it with a friend is so funny to me. Looking back, I wish I'd planned it out better and wrote it more eloquently, but I'm glad it brings people some sense of joy/entertainment/understanding. I hope you and your friend enjoyed it, even in an ironic sense.

It's endlessly entertaining (and fascinating) to me personally how every toxic fh believer seems to undergo the same-ish pipeline of watching the fh pov and being horrified --> looking at fanon fh and disengaging out of fear --> finding other toxic fh posters in the wild and suddenly realising you're not insane after all. I know I personally went into scott's pov expecting wholesomeness and ended up wide-eyed at what I saw before proceeding to slink FH into the back of my mind for awhile.

People tend to believe others operate like they do and I think that's where a lot of the discourse originates. Most of the louder voices I've seen that are very against the toxic interpretation are from people who primarily engage in bending the characters to fit specific concepts i.e. the "toxic jimmy" brainstorm that happened awhile back on here where interpretation is less a study and more confirmation bias-ing your way into making an idea work. Which I must reiterate is completely awesome because we're making fanfics here not nukes. But this leads people to assume that everyone who writes about toxic fh is going in with the mindset of "how do i interpret these moments so that scott is an abuser" and not "wow that thing i just watched sure kind of felt like domestic abuse"

Which like. YEAH, if there was a theoretical group of people who went out of their way to interpret everything scott did ever as evil and irredeemable, I too would assume that they had it out for the guy. But that's not what's happening, usually, afaik (at least on here, twitter's situation is a bit different due to the culture and would be its own beast for me to dissect and I honestly don't spend enough time on there to really feel confident making any statement).

For the record, I think a lot of people are on the same boat regarding FH being toxic and just simply don't care enough to voice/explore it, don't want to deal with the fandom nonsense that comes with it or would simply rather shift focus onto other pairs with similar themes. i.e. there is something going on with the toxic fh believer/ethubs shipper overlap I just know there is if anyone would like to do science with me it'd be awesome.

I know that I definitely focused my sights more on Scott and Pearl's relationship following my "wow that was sure something" watchthrough of scott's series, which is ironic considering I now base alot of my thoughts about their dynamic on scott's previous relationship with jimmy.

I think there's like. Something about the DL Pearl fans and the ranchers fans specifically who tended to communicate in code re: Scott's toxicity because for a long time all of us were afraid of saying it outright. So you get a lot of posts where Scott is like. A vaguely unpleasant force in the narrative while not really being a main focus himself, which I think may have contributed to the "ranchers fans only view scott as the villainous ex to push their ship harder" argument that I've seen a lot.

Once I realised from that one Shepscapades comic that there were others who saw the same plot I did, I would go out fishing for signs of agreement/acknowledgement. Hybbat if you're reading this, take this as my apology for sending you anon asks back in the day essentially trying to bait you into posting more FH slander, there was something deeply wrong with me (there still is, I'm just more upfront about it now I think).

There's also just this very like.. us vs them mentality very apparent in the way people talk about The Discourse that kinda sucks. Weirdly enough it's kind of shifted from toxic fh vs healthy fh to fh vs ranchers (or any other jimmy ship for that matter) nowadays. I can't talk on 2016 tumblr but regarding your last point (which I know isn't directed towards me but I think it's worth saying) -- would it matter if you Were one of THOSE fh writers? (or one of THOSE aces or THOSE enbies for that matter). You're not but like. Would it?

(side note rhetorical question do not answer i dont want to know but wtf did the aces/enbies even do lmao)

Not to get too away from the discourse cus I do my fair share of glazing on this blog already, but yes yes yes big agree on fh's storyline being amazing!! I love that we essentially watch them both have to live on after their mutually life-changing marriage.

Scott especially I love because in a lot of stories that feature an abuser they're painted as entirely evil and oftentimes disappear from the story once the relationship is over, but Scott doesn't and will never go anywhere. He's forced to grapple with his previous actions and the destructive way he thinks about himself and relationships has and continues to damage both himself and the people he loves. Just like how irl even when we wish abusers would just "go away" they will still continue being living people as they've always been, not a concept that will simply perish once you overcome the trauma. I love abusive characters who are fully written as human and think they're important. Is all.