#I have never read tsoa

[friedmagazinebouquet]

I am so willing to talk about Patroclus and Achilles in any context whatsoever at literally any chance I get

Friends, lovers, something completely outside or in between the two?? Heck yeah, pull up a chair and let's discuss the LADS

[daily-xisuma]

hope you're enjoying TSOA! I've read it myself, and it's truly a great book.

[127] FINISHED IT MAYBE AN HOUR AGO <3 </3

[henry-fox-biggest-stan]

“Omg Edward and Bella are so Odysseus and Penelope coded” that’s how it sounds to me each time anyone compares a mlm ship to achilles and patroklos

[salvatorelizzie]

i do not think i have mentioned that the song of achilles is one of my favourite books ever. it is what launched my greek mythology phase 2 years ago and it is a book i still think about regularly. it was the first book i read where two queer people in a relationship were the focal point of the story. i could talk about this book for hours and hours

[noctilionoidea]

My favourite panel from an English project back in November. It’s a bit messy because of its size. I had to create a visualization of a poem from my own perception of it so I adapted the entire thing into a comic. It used Achilles as a metaphor and had a lot of heartbreak so uh… yea

I don’t really feel like it’s good enough to post as a whole (especially since I kinda bastardized someone else’s hard work lol). But I like this a lot.

[chelleisamazing]

I just got to that part where Patroclus asks Achilles to fight him when he sees him training for the first time and I already love these two so much haha 🥲 kill me

[dootznbootz]

I don't think Greek Mythology retellings/adaptions/inspired/etc. are necessarily "evil"...but I DO think people REALLY need to understand that there's a huge difference between the actual mythology and certain media.

I feel like people have to basically do a "Fandom ___" to say the different versions. Like "PJO ___", "Hades game ___", "TSOA ___". For it to be understood that these depictions are DIFFERENT. I'm saying this as someone who grew up reading PJO and still has a soft spot for it. But as someone who really loves Greek Mythology as well, I sometimes get really SAD.

I'm going to use the comparison of Howl's Moving Castle with it's Book Vs. Movie. I enjoy both!!! But they are honestly very different. In the movie there is no "sister swap", Markle isn't a young teenager, Sophie doesn't throw weed killer at Howl, and many more moments. But I enjoy both because even though there are changes they still keep components that are ingrained into the characters!

In some Greek Myth retellings/adaptations/stories/etc., characters are...SO different from the source material. That's fine...Choose what you want with your story... But folks should know that the modern adaptations are NOT the source material!!!

It bothers me that a lot of these wonderful myths and stories are twisted up and seen so differently because of a modern version of them. You can have that character be "awful" or a certain way in your story. But I almost feel that as fans, it's not good to generalize them or see it as "This is the truth". People are hating the mythological figure when it's only in that interpretation they are like that.

In PJO, Ares is "Zeus' favorite", isn't a good dad, a misogynist, etc. The actual myths? One of his Epithets is LITERALLY "Feasted by Women", in the Iliad everybody basically bullies him with Zeus literally saying he hates him. He cries when he learns one of his sons is killed in the war. He literally kills someone about to rape his daughter. Ares isn't perfect but it makes me sad with how he's viewed and talked about when it's only in PJO he's like that. Same with Dionysus. Read the Bacchae, you'll love it.

In Lore Olympus, Apollo rapes Persephone (noticing the fact that modern takes on the myths add rapes where there never were hmmmmm) when he never did in any of the myths.

In TSOA, Thetis is cruel when in the Iliad, she is such a loving mother to Achilles. She grieved alongside her son over Patroclus. Also with Agamemnon. In Ipheginia at Aulis, Agamemnon is a MESS. He adored his children.

In Circe, Odysseus is viewed as a selfish man who ONLY hurts others and doesn't care about his family when that is LITERALLY his one consistent character trait. HE is actually the one who is the victim of rape. Circe was never raped.

Medusa is only a victim in Ovid's, a Roman man, works. Not in GREEK mythology. She was just a cool monster. Leave Perseus alone. Poseidon and Medusa actually had a consensual relationship in Greek Mythology!

These adaptations/retellings/inspired by/etc. whatever anybody wants to call them, are not the real myths! They may be similar in some ways but to just generalize them or hate the deity/mythological figure because of something they did in the new media feels fucked up!

You can enjoy these new stories. There's nothing wrong with that!!! But know they're not the real myths. Maybe even label it as "I hate ____'s version of ____". As that makes it clear what version you're talking about.

[redstarjuly]

I was reading discourse on achilles yesterday and I'm still thinking about some people calling him a r*pist and others saying that other books they've read that are from a woman's perspective completely shifted the perception they have of TSOA's Achilles. And to me that makes little to no sense.

Here's what I come from: Achilles is a character from the Illiad, and the poem itself is pretty much fanfiction. I mean, the person and warrior that Achilles is based on probably existed, and it might have been called Achilles even, but i think we all agree that the rest is dubious.

Since the illiad is like the OG story, people tend to look at it as if it's canon and we'll go with that logic. You have the canon work and poets go off on their own versions of these characters writing tragedies, more epics, thesis, all sorts of stuff, and it goes on for centuries until we reach The song of Achilles and Percy Jackson and all the other 100s retellings coming out which are fanfiction of fanfiction.

And you're letting one fanfiction distort another fanfiction? It's bonkers to me because as someone who has to read the classics and grew up on fanfiction, I don't see that happening elsewhere. Between academics, if we're discussing a myth, we mention the different versions, and we can choose one to go on from, sure. But even so, I never saw someone sound so affected by different perspectives on the same character in class.

And if we're talking on the world of street fanfiction, I most definitely don't find people going "Oh this fanfiction of hermione betraying the order and marrying voldmort changed my perspective of Harry Potter's hermione" you know? -- if that sounds like a stupid example, it's because it is. It's just to show that my whole point is that it's insane to me to let a book ruin another book when the authors are creating different versions of the same characters, which basically turns them into different characters with the same names. Especially since you know, it's all made up. And this isn't real criticism to the people forming their opinions or the authors, respect to all of them.

But it’s a little maddening watching people roll into arguments to discuss what piece of fiction is more real and relevant when they're all in the same level of glorified AO3 works.

I hope this makes sense to someone else

[lucyskywalker]

Talking about the books, alright?

About. The. Books.

Not the TV Show.

I find it really amusing people hating on PJO!Gods for something that the pjo!gods didn't do on the story.

My biggest example: Calypso.

Calypso is not hated for something she did on Rick's story. She is hated for what she had done in the Odyssey written by Homer.

For everything that we know of, she never SA Ody in Rick's story, because Rick's characters are very, very different from the original source.

What supports this thesis is the Trials of Apollo.

Apollo didn't skin the satyr alive, but people still believe he have done that.

What makes sense. It is a children's book.

You won't make a character be the closest version of the myth, you won't make the director of a camp filled with children of different ages be a rapist.

Rick was inspired by Greek and Roman Mythology, but not everything that happend on the myths, happend on PJO storyline, actually, Rick changed a lot of myths to fit his writing. Again, TOA is a proof of that.

I have read a fic where the main theme was a friendship bound between Hermes&Percy, and there were comments like: He would never be friend with a rapist.

But the fact is: Percy is, canonically speaking, Hermes's friend. It is literally written on the book, word by word.

I find it really interesting, read fics rated as M to explore more of the dark side of the myths, I really do, and these fanfics are mostly written by adults to another adults.

But that is what they are: Fanfic. It is not canon. In pjo canon the gods are very chill compared with the original source. And that is OK.

It is like comparing illiad!achilles to tsoa!achilles.

They are not the same. I would dare to say tsoa!achilles is a sweetheart compared with what he actually is in the illiad. But Achilles still is romanticized regardless of what he have done in Greek Mythology in favor of a novel written in the XXI century by an American author.

The same way a lot of people like to actually rewrite the myth of Poseidon and Medusa on Athena's Temple, as it was an actual Greek myth (and it isn't. It is a Roman Myth with Netuno, Medusa and Minerva written by Ovid years and years later) Rick also can write a fictional book where SA didn't happen or is not adressed, since uk, it is a children's book.

Modern fictional books inspired by myths will be very different from the real myths written millenia ago. And that is OK.

[johaerys-writes]

Hi! I’m pretty new to the world of Achilles and Patroclus (I read The Song Of Achilles last month) and I just saw your post about your love for them. When you said “there's just so much stuff out there about them (tsoa, hades game, the iliad, a bunch of other myths and adaptations, non fiction books, academic papers etc)” I was wondering if you could touch on the other myths and adaptations part maybe? I’m not exactly sure where to begin there but I would appreciate any guidance you could give!

Oh boy I don't know where to start either because there's a LOT. I don't want to overwhelm you so I'll just list a few key myths and adaptations off the top of my head:

Adaptations

So as far as adaptations go, I will include works where both Achilles and Patroclus show up and that are inspired by the Iliad.

Hades Game: I'm pretty sure you're already familiar with this, just mentioning it just in case!

Aristos the musical: it's a musical as the name suggests, and it revolves around Achilles and Patroclus' lives from Pelion all the way to Troy. It's really lovely and has made me emotional on numerous occasions and I love revisiting it every so often! It also has a Tumblr account: @aristosmusical

Troilus and Cressida: this is Shakespeare's take on the Trojan War and it's quite interesting, not really faithful to the Iliad but offers a sort of different perspective on the characters and the events that led to Hector's death.

Achilles (1995) by Barry JC Purves: it's a short stop motion film using clay puppets, it's on Youtube and it's only 11 mins and I think it's worth a watch! I find it very compelling visually and any adaptation where Achilles and Patroclus are lovers is a plus in my book 🫶

Holding Achilles: this is an Australian stage production by the Dead Puppet Society, I really enjoyed it and I found it an interesting blend of TSOA and Iliad Patrochilles, which also featured some cool new elements that I hadn't really seen before. It used to be free to watch for a while but now I think you have to pay to watch it, there's more info on their website.

The Silence of the Girls: a novel by Pat Barker, it's a take on the events of the Iliad mostly through Briseis' eyes, I personally didn't really like the book or the characterisations but hey both Achilles and Patroclus are in it so it might be worth a read.

There are some other novels I've heard of where Achilles and Patroclus appear (A Thousand Ships by Natalie Haynes, Wrath Goddess Sing by Maya Deane) and also a TV show called Troy: Fall of a City but I haven't read/watched them so I can't really rec them

Myths

Most myths revolve around Achilles, there aren't that many with Patroclus I'm afraid, but here are some of my favourites:

Achilleid by Publius Papinius Statius: this is an epic poem about Achilles' stay on Skyros disguised as a girl and his involvement with Deidameia. It's interesting but I'd personally take the characterisations and events in it with a grain of salt because Romans were notorious for their unsympathetic portrayal of Greek Homeric heroes but it's still a cool thing that's out there and free to read online.

Iphigenia at Aulis: a tragedy by the ancient Greek playwright Euripides, it's basically the dramatised version of the myth of Iphigenia's sacrifice in Aulis which predates the Iliad, there are many obscure versions of this myth but Euripides' sort of updated version is my favourite, I will never shut up about this play!! Lots of a nuance and very interesting portrayals of Achilles, Agamemnon, Menelaus, Clytemnestra, Iphigenia and pretty much everyone in there, well worth a read.

Lost plays: there are several plays in which Achilles appears but that have been lost or survive only in fragments, but two of my favourites are Euripides' Telephus and Aeschylus' Myrmidons. Telephus takes place before the Trojan War, while the Greeks are on their way to Troy. I really like Achilles' characterisation in the fragments that remain and also the fact that he was already renowned for his knowledge of medicine and healing despite how young he was. The fragments that survive from Aeschylus' Myrmidons I think are fewer but the play was extremely popular at the time it was presented to the public and it sparked a lot of controversy re: Achilles and Patroclus' relationship and who tops/bottoms so I think that's kind of funny lol.

There are lots of other obscure little myths about Achilles that I've picked up by reading various books, papers and wiki posts on the matter and that are just too numerous to list here, but what I will mention and that I think concludes the myths section of this post pretty neatly is that the Iliad and the Odyssey are not the only works about the Trojan War that were written, merely the only works that survived. The rest of the books in the Epic Cycle have been preserved either in fragmentary form or in descriptions in other works, and I think the Epic Cycle wiki page is a good place to start if you want to get an idea of what each of those books contained.

I hope this helped! 💙

[dionysism]

wanna go more in depth for your hatred about tsoa? is it really REALLY inaccurate? im start to get more into greek mythology and many recommended that book to me besides the obvious ones like the actual materials

(btw i love your posts mwa mwa stay hydrated)

sure! yes it is very inaccurate. let me just say though its been like 3 years since i read it and i'm currently out of state so i don't have it on me to skim through but perhaps one day i will reread it just to make a whole masterpost on everything i hate about it. maybe not tho because it was agonizing enough on the first read 💀

also let me put a trigger warning here i will be mentioning sexual assault in this post because it's in the book and i'll be referring to that scene

so i have a lot of issues with it let me try to organize my thoughts... her characterization is my main issue. just terrible. also i feel like her writing is like.... weird or unfitting sometimes. like theres a scene where patroclus (who is like... 11 or 12 at this point maybe younger) says achilles is "still plump with childhood" or something (again probably not the exact quote its been a minute but something similar) which is just not how 11 year olds talk about other 11 year olds? its supposed to be from patroclus' perspective and i just feel like when shes writing him as a kid he still sounds, thinks, and talks like a grown adult. sometimes he doesn't even sound like patroclus he just sounds like madeline miller.

which brings me to her characterization of patroclus in general. just fucking horrific was her inspo troy (2004)? she made him this medic twink who only heals and even when he finally does fight in achilles armor its like he gets kills on pure luck and you're supposed to be shocked. patroclus in the iliad is 1. older than achilles and 2. a great warrior! this is why achilles lets him don his armor in the first place because he KNOWS how good patroclus is on the battlefield. also patroclus has anger and rage of his own! he is not a smol uwu baby don't PISS ME OFF! his kill count crazy. idek where she got the medic thing from there's like one (1) scene in the iliad where patroclus helps an injured solider in the camp but he is most certainly not the medic of the greeks. he's dull in tsoa. he has hardly any personality outside his love for achilles.

next is her thetis. this, i think, enrages me more than anything else. thetis is a character of grief. thetis is a goddess who, for all her power, is ultimately unable to change the fate of her son. she may be a little overbearing at times, but NOTHING like how she is in tsoa. madeline miller makes her a homophobic (?) helicopter abusive mother (i say ? on the homophobia because im not sure if it was homophobia or if she just hated patroclus specifically. if it was homophobia the stupidity of making an ancient greek god homophobic speaks for itself) thetis doesn't even hate patroclus in the iliad, in fact, thetis is the one who preserves his body and keeps it fresh and prevents it from rotting while achilles waits for his new armor and then goes out to fight hector. she tells achilles he could lay there for a year and she would keep him unchanged. in tsoa, she forces them apart, and tells achilles if he does not sleep with deidamia, she will never let him see patroclus again. this is insane to me. thetis would not set her son up for s/a and force him to sleep with someone against his will. and mind you this occurs after she's already stated clearly that thetis is a victim of rape herself. i assume this is madeline miller's way of asserting that achilles has no attraction to women while still being able to have his son in the plot later. this again, is stupid to me. if you want to argue achilles may have been gay, fine, homosexuality was complicated in ancient greece and you could potentially make the argument his sleeping with women was to uphold a reputation but i think it's more accurate that he was probably just attracted to both. however i think you can make him explicitly gay in a retelling without adding sexual assault to his story. i also find this especially distasteful because in actual antiquity achilles is the one committing sexual assault. (if i had a nickel for every time madeline miller made a character who canonically assaults someone else a victim of s/a while removing the fact they commit it themselves from the story i'd have 2 nickels. which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice, right?) in general i find it very weird how madeline, on multiple occasions, demonizes a woman from mythology and makes her into a villain she simply is not. this y'alls "feminist retelling" author? oh okay.. i guess! (her deidama is an antagonist in this too, as a hysterical jealous Other Woman)

i also felt she imposed too many modern standards/heteronormativity onto achilles and patroclus' relationship. like i said with patroclus, making him the weak defenseless healer and achilles the badass warrior. very much giving one is strong and masculine and the other is nurturing and feminine. changing the aspects of their other relationships so its like they've only ever loved eachother and no else which isn't necessary. achilles and patroclus could (and do, in the iliad) sleep with other people and it would not diminish how intense and true their love for each other is!!

over all she sanitized the story, flattened it and butchered all the characters with a sprinkle of fetishization and misogyny on top. the book is frankly boring and underdeveloped too. this is honestly not as in depth of a review as i would like to give but like i said i don't have access to the book at the moment so i just stuck to the core grievances i remember having

(also thank you, you stay hydrated too!! <3)

[orpheuslament]

i have conflicting feelings about tsoa & madeline miller like on one hand i read the book when i was like 15 & loved it & it definitely sparked an interest in ancient greek lit so im forever indebted to it. on the other hand you made liking achilles embarrassing & ill never forgive you for that

[imbadatwrighting]

could I request platonic Achilles and Patroclus with a very cheerful and sweet g/n child reader? like all around reader is very sunshiney and bby vibes

I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THEM THANK YOU ANON!! This is TSOA Universe not based on the Iliad or anything

Also I’m in the middle of writing the outsiders headcannons anyone wanna see that???

Achilles & Patroclus + a cheerful gn! child reader

I'm writing this Pre!Trojan War because there is no way they would let you come with them

It really doesn't matter whether you're a servant, royal, or commoner they are so attached to you

Patroclus met you first when he first exiled and sent to the court of King Peleus of Phthia

You and him were attached at the hip

Or rather you were attached to his back

Wherever he went you tagged along too

Anytime he could he would go to the gardens with you and just watch the birds while laying in the flowers

He always loved to watch you chase after the butterflies

Will read to you before bed

You met Achilles when you walked into his room

Honestly it was concerning how easy it was to get in

You wanted to put flowers on his bed stand, but was instead met with Achilles sitting at the edge of the bed

Not doing anything just straight up staring at nothing

He looked at you and just walked out

Everyone who's a sunshine knows when that happens you just have to get closer to that person

Cue you following Achilles wherever he went

Patroclus was a little concerned over then facts that you were barely hanging out with him and you were following King Peleus' son around like he was your best friend

Cue Achilles and Patroclus becoming best friends

Where they went, you went

You make flower crown for them every Friday

Achilles lets you sit on his shoulders whenever you want

They have to drag you away from servants that you keep making conversation with

Achilles is just your guard dog

Someone is making fun of you? Guard dog

You're scared someone would brake into your room? Guard dog

Someone is distracting you from him for too long? Guard dog

Achilles enjoys you pulling on his hair

Not in a kinky way or anything

It's just to him it's a way of comfort

Don't ask him why he doesn't know

They try to keep you out of the loop for what happens in the real world

It doesn't matter whether or not you were introduced to the real world, they're not letting you go back to it

They don't want you to lose your bright personality

Patroclus has thrown hands over you lets be honest here

He would kill anyone for you

Achilles would as well (obviously)

Honestly they’re borderline yandere ngl

Achilles/Patroclus (depending on your hair color) dyed a strand of their hair your hair color

Achilles takes you to the beach whenever he can but never introduces you to his mother

Tag everyday

And hide and seek

They bring your favorite snack wherever they go incase you get hungry

Once a prince started making fun of you he wasn’t seen again

I wonder what happened…

Looking at sunsets with Patroclus

Achilles and Patroclus getting stressed out over the littlest things

Once you tripped and got a scraped knee and Achilles almost had a panic attack

Sleeping in Achilles bed at least once a week

Dancing for Achilles when he’s in a bad mood

They will do anything in their power to boost your mood if your sad

They hate whenever that happens

Will gladly embarrass themselves for you anytime and anywhere

Patroclus picks flowers with you and tells you the meaning of them

They both love you so much and view you as their own child

[eternalera]

achilles was doomed the moment he met patroclus :>

you guys ever stop and think that achilles was meant to die the MOMENT he met patroclus. i mean think about it for a second. in the iliad achilles was persistent in not fighting until agamemnon begged him to and agamemnon REFUSED to beg. if achilles didnt meet patroclus then he wouldn't have fought. he most likely would've left troy and went back to pythia bc he was THAT pissed at agamemnon. he wouldn't have killed hector, so apollo (paris shot him but lets be honest he didnt do shit) wouldnt have killed him.

now if you think of it in tsoa terms he knew that he was going to die if he killed hector. so he just wouldnt have killed him anyways. his mother wouldve probably told him and she probably did in the actual reading (at least i think she did) and achillles probably would've never killed him during the war. then agamemnon would disgrace him, not beg, and achilles would go off.

BUT since achilles met patroclus, found him as a friend and then lover bc lets be honest they were hella gay for each other he then got mad when hector killed him. mad enough to go back into fighting kill hector and then get killed himself.

what a gay ass love story

[lingy910y]

Weekly Tag Wednesday

tagged by so many friends @energievie, @gallapiech, @deedala, @mybrainismelted, @sgtmickeyslaughter, @gallawitchxx, @heymrspatel, @burninface & @iansw0rld as you can see work is making me busy lmao

age: 17

location: ny

top sheet, yes or no? nope

how many stuffed animals do you own? around 10 but i only keep my ian and mickey one on my bed lmao. even tho i don’t play with them anymore i’m still sad and sentimental over my mom throwing out so many </3

the names of your pets (and the explanations behind them): no pets

favorite color: red violet

any tattoos? no

how you transport your belongings (purse, tote, hands, pockets, etc.): a backpack for school and a tote for casual items

the last movie you watched: a rewatch of everything everywhere all at once with my sister who hasn’t seen it bc last time she stopped in the middle and i’ve been trying to get her to finish it bc i know she’ll like it smh

how long does it take you to get ready in the morning? 30 mins

favorite weather: 70 degrees, cloudy

relationship status: never been in one

ice cream flavor of choice: (hi face 👀) vanilla

first fandom: mlp:fim 🥹 the juxtaposition between this and shamey lmao

how many books have you read this year? literally only in the middle of one, i think the reason is bc i have too high standards and gets put off if someone gives a bad review 😭

first 4 words of your last notes app entry: "mickey: i attempted to" oh i was reading tsoa/greek myths and was like damn and we thought mickey was unhinged. my dude achilles fist-fought a river god, killed his lover’s murderer, tied his corpse behind a chariot, and dragged him around the gates of troy to the point where his dad had to beg for his corpse and the gods had to step in 😭🙏🙏🙏

and finally, if you had to change your URL tomorrow, what would you change it to? i thought abt darlingian but chani took it before me so idk. i don’t wanna change it tho cause i’ll also have to change all the dead links 🥶

tagging @blue-disco-lights, @jademickian, @doshiart, @mmmichyyy & @ms-moonlight-inn

[koruga]

GOD THE WAY TSOA TREATED THETIS IS RAGE INDUCING!! Shaking your hand as another hater

I am first and foremost a lover of good moms in any story and Thetis in the Iliad is SUCH a good mom. Like she cares about Achilles SO much and she mourns with him! When Patroclus dies, she comforts Achilles (Book 18) and she genuinely does seem to care about his sorrow! She doesn't just want her son to be a god -- like, yeah, she'd prefer that her son doesn't die before hitting thirty, and I feel like maybe that's a valid concern to have! But never in the Iliad does she hate Patroclus, she's not homophobic or anything, she's.

God. She's a caring figure in the Iliad. When she hears Achilles mourning Patroclus, she brings 33+ of her sisters to comfort him. It's by her word that Zeus tells the other gods to sit out and let Troy overwhelm the Achaeans, she was powerful enough for both Poseidon and Zeus to consider marrying her, she's a goddess. I couldn't really bring myself to read Circe, at first because my sister was in possession of the book and then when I got it back because I didn't want to, but from what I gather Circe is treated in a similar way -- she's not a 'full goddess' or whatever, but part nymph, which makes her lesser and resentful.

But like...Thetis isn't just a nymph. She raised Hephaestus, she's the eldest(?) daughter of Nereus, she's old and she's powerful. I can see her harbouring resentment to Peleus for chaining her to the mortal realm, sure, you could take that tack in a story. It's not a retelling verbatim of the Iliad, you could do that. But like...she's so powered down and made resentful for that, and I really hate the way she's written in that regard.

I mean it's all up to personal taste, I guess. TSOA is a well-written book, but I disagree with at least half of the characterisation choices because the Iliad and the Odyssey are my favourite pieces of literature, tied with the Princess Bride. It's kind of just...if that's your only point of contact with the Iliad and the legend of Achilles, you walk away with such a weird view of what happened.

Anyway justice for Thetis, best mom.