#I guess people could say the same for byler

[robinswise]

Eddie Munson is absolutely everywhere and I'm so tired of it :')

I get liking Eddie but when almost every stranger things related tag is full of him it gets tiring for us who don't love him

[eddiezpaghetti]

Okay, so my experience with Stranger Things is a weird one.

I didn't care when it first came out, started to watch it out of "might as well" in 2020, wasn't interested in it enough to make it past S2, forgot about it outside of going "oh, hey, cool, there's a lesbian in it now, I guess," in S3, got really annoyed when "Running Up That Hill" got popular from it because it was a song I listened to on fucking loop after one of my best friends died in high school and I fully expected its appearance in the show to ignore the whole survivor's guilt theme of the song (and was very happy to learn later that it did the exact opposite of ignoring the lyrics), saw people drawing Eddie, suddenly got a lot more interested, watched just the fourth season like a fucking psychopath because I was seriously only there for Eddie, then got interested enough to start the show over properly, having mostly forgotten what I did watch of the show before.

And let me tell you something from the perspective of someone who started with the complete fourth season, who wasn't there from the start, who wasn't tainted by ship goggles or this internal battle of hope and despair, who wasn't theorizing about what the painting could be or expecting Mike and Will to kiss when Volume 2 happened or rooting for Mike and Eleven's relationship to go down in flames or whatever the fuck. Just someone who went blind into Season 4.

It's really fucking obvious that Will and Mike are gonna be endgame.

Like holy fuck. It's so fucking blatant I don't even know why people are nervous.

No sane fucking person would shoot this scene this way if they wanted the audience to care about El and Mike as a couple. Despite being all blurry in the background, Will's reaction to what's happening here is smackdab in the fucking middle, clearly showing that the important part is what's going through his head here. What he's feeling. It's like the opposite of that scene from Kingdom Hearts II where Sora and Riku reunite and Kairi just fucking vanishes into the aether while it's happening because, despite the fact that she was standing between them when the scene began, she doesn't matter to the scene, so she's just kind of gone when the camera angle changes. Will could have been behind one of their heads, or so far in the distance he blends in with the background, but he's not. He's so obvious that despite being massively blurred out, he's still the first goddamn thing you look at. What, you think that's an accident? You think he's in the middle of this dramatic fucking scene because of a mistake? He basically has a big flashing neon arrow pointing at him with "THIS IS THE POINT" being screamed through a megaphone.

And then this?

They're paired up like they're taking fucking prom pictures. Each one of these pairs is so fucking close to one another and so fucking far from everyone else. It's not, "Oh, they're standing vaguely near each other in a group shot," it's fucking Noah's Ark out here. Again, there's no way to take this as an accident. It's not just a framing issue. If they wanted to make the shot look balanced while still not hiding anyone else behind El, they would have scattered people around much more naturally. Even if they wanted to keep Nancy with Jonathan and Hopper with Joyce, there's so much room on that hill for three people to stand on El's left and three on her right. But they didn't do that. They put Mike and Will together on purpose in the most obvious way possible.

Like I get that coming up with crackpot theories is fun in and of itself and I'm not blaming anyone for having fun. I totally get the appeal of arguing a point and reaching for every stupid little thing to pull into it because it's like a game, okay? I've done that. But if you're trying to actually convince someone (whether it's someone who wants to believe or someone who's pissed at the very idea that Mike and Will could be in love), stay away from blue and yellow lights, stay away from costume design, stay away from the existence of closets in backgrounds. And don't worry about whether Mike's gay or bi when he's in love with Will either way. I'll give you a little tip about persuasion: You're only as strong as your weakest argument. Even if you've got strong stuff in there, too, the person you're trying to convince is going to dismiss anything you say as complete insanity the second you start going on an entire tangent about the shape of a character's fucking pocket.

Sometimes, clothes are just clothes. Sometimes, there's a closet in the background because it helps establish that a character is in a bedroom. Sometimes, blue and yellow are just a couple of colors that look nice together. And sure, it might be set designers and costume designers and cinematographers smirking and winking at the audience from behind the camera. But if the show was just those things, instead of those things in the context of everything else, they wouldn't be saying anything of note.

But this?

This tells a story all on its own. Someone with no context can look at this and automatically assume that each paired person is standing with someone they care about deeply, seeking comfort as they watch some sort of disaster unfold. And yeah, romantic couples usually come in twos, and we live in an amatonormative society, so that's going to be the first association anyone makes seeing a bunch of people paired off.

It's the same reason you look at this

And go, "Oh..."

"Those two are probably a couple."

And I genuinely don't understand how people could have watched S4 Vol. 2 and gotten scared. Because as someone who went in with no investment whatsoever, I just looked at these two--

--and went, "Oh, those two are a couple. Good for them." And I moved on. Shut up about the trees for five seconds and just see the forest for what it is.

Oh, and if you're still nervous? Little thing from a storyteller here: You don't leave a hanging thread like "Will confessed his romantic feelings for Mike by projecting them onto El, but Mike either didn't understand or at least didn't say he understood," without coming back to that later. That's Chekov's gun hanging on the wall, babes. It's gonna fire at some point. If Mike was going to reject Will's feelings, if they weren't relevant, they would have had that discussion in Argyle's van. There'd be no reason to leave you in suspense.

[miwiheroes]

Full Airport Scene Analysis

I've seen like, a lot of people do analyses of the airport scene, but they often do it in parts when I just want to fully hone in on the whole ass scene and give it a full run-down. So, get ready for this post to be extremely long.

So, the camera pans across from Argyle and Jonathan looking super bored and tired to both Will and El, and I think this is actually very clever. Before this scene, you're not really sure who Will is in love with or who he made the painting for. The fact that the audience may remember El saying 'i think there is someone he likes' and then see how Will is holding the painting so proudly means that they subconsciously realise, oh the painting is for Mike meaning -- Will has feelings for Mike. Note how the juxtaposition between Argyle and Jonathan's demeanour and Will and El's demeanour further showcases how they feel the same way about him (supposedly).

Also this is random, but watching this scene over and over again made me realise that Will's is literally shaking so much in this scene. (WATCH HIS HAND WHEN EL IS LOOKING FOR MIKE)

Now let's talk about Mike's outfit (yes this isn't just talking about how ass it is)

So in the amazing GQ video on youtube, the costume designer talks about how Mike probably bought this outfit at the airport. He's dressing up how he thinks he should in California -- the double meaning being that he is trying to 'be more normal' as Finn Wolfhard says in another interview.

In this scene we know that Mike's trying really hard to push down his feelings about Will, he's trying to seem like he fits in, and in the GQ video, Amy Parris talks about how 'it's bright, it's not a colour Mike normally wears'. Orange and purple? Mike usually wears blue..... and yellow........... i mean what

I guess you could say that in a more surface-y way, he's trying to fit in by wearing something less edgy than he would normally wear, but if you look deeper into the colour coding of byler, he's trying to disconnect himself from Will because of him trying to deny his feelings. Will is wearing blue in this scene, but Mike's wearing orange, showing the disconnect between them in the scenes with these outfits on. I know a lot of people say he's wearing yellow, but nah, it's orange and that's actually more proof that he's trying to hide his feelings for Will.

Also this is another quote from Parris: 'he's worn teal before, so it felt like orange was the best colour that was different from his closet that felt like he was trying to make it work in california.'

And it's not like they just forgot the colour coding for byler. I mean, there's blue and yellow in this shot of Mike when we first see his outfit.

Can you spot it?

Okay moving on

In the first and last Milkvan kissing scene, it is important to note that the directors of the show are very intentional with the extras and where they move to during the scenes. During the shot of them kissing, the camera is focused on them, yes, but it is very busy. Watch the shippers try to edit this scene, the duffers really said.

Firstly, Mike is wearing a visor, he's holding a bag so he can barely hug her, he's also wearing sunglasses inside?? You can't see his facial expression, further showing this season is not in his pov. Not only that, but people are moving in front of the camera, it's very very busy. It's supposed to be a little overwhelming. I could barely take a screenshot without someone walking in front of the camera... like that is not a coincidence, they aren't filming in an actual busy airport. So so many extras walk in front of them during the whole scene, not just the kiss, but while they are speaking as well.

When El goes to hug him, as soon as she does, he makes a little noise of protest or something and is like 'careful, careful' almost like he put the flowers in front of them on purpose so there's like an excuse for them to stop hugging? They then stop hugging and he finally takes off his glasses so we can see his face.

He is wearing sunglasses only in the parts where he's being slightly intimate with his girlfriend -- eyes are windows into the soul, no? Without them being seen, you wouldn't be able to tell what he is thinking, and he needs these in these intimate moments especially, in case anyone notices something's wrong.

Okay now we go onto the flower theory thing, and there are many things to unpack here, and stuff that I personally don't believe, and some theories that I do.

What is super clear to me is that these flowers are the exact same dead flowers that El picks up at the end of season 4 to signify that her relationship with Mike is.... dead (sorry if that's kind of on the nose). However, it is also key to note that Mike says that he 'handpicked' them for her in Hawkins, which on the surface makes it seem like he made more effort, but really this actually sets up the fact that they are the same flowers that can be found on the field. If he bought them in the shop, they may not be the exact same flowers in the last scene.

So Mike says 'I know you like yellow, but now I'm realising it's too much yellow'. The writers of the show did not have to put that in, let's just think about that for a moment. What was the reason for putting this line in? And the '70-30' split line is also very very specific.

Will's colour in the byler colour coding is yellow, it has been subconsciously put into our minds ever since they started colour coding them, for example the s3 netflix icons, the shirt he wears for the majority of s4 and the lights over his head in Rink-o-mania.

Personally, I think this might be a bit of a reach, but could Mike just simply mean that he was thinking too much about Will, in his opinion? Like subconsciously he kind of added lots of yellow because he was thinking of Will when he was thinking of El.

As for the 'So I sort of did a 70-30 split thing' line, I'm not really sure what this means. It could mean that he's putting in 30% of the relationship because he also added 30% purple flowers which symbolises what he's putting into the relationship. Meanwhile, El's favourite colour of flower has a 70% weight in the bouquet, meaning she's putting more into the relationship.

It's also worthy to see that El looks at the note which has 'From, Mike' on it right as he's saying all this stuff about the yellow flowers, and the music dies down from this joyful tone to a sombre one, kind of showing how the yellow flowers are a symbol for something.

Now, before this ^^, the only problem that we think is going on in Mike and El's relationship is the fact that El's lying to him about having friends and not being bullied. But now we have a possible reason. She is insecure about their relationship and how real it is. Her face says everything, she notices it, she then tries to ignore it and tells herself everything is fine.

The audience notices this, obviously, and is like??? wait what's going on? Why does it say 'from Mike'?

They get the answer real quick.

Because right after this, is when Will bounds over.

They shot it so that he's kind of in between them, subconsciously placing a thought or idea in the audience's head about what the problem is between Mike and El, even though it's very implicit at this point. The audience should also have the slight idea in this scene that Will has feelings for Mike, and they get reminded of this fact when they see Will in the background. They're then like.... oh so that's why they having problems? Damn....

Before El even stops speaking, Mike sees Will. We can tell from the way that he literally takes his eyes off El and goes 'oh,' before doing the second 'oh!'. I bet if this was shot so you could see his face, this would be way more obvious, but they shot it so that we could see Will's initial happiness at seeing Mike instead.

Awkward bro hug... um yeah so this is one of the biggest byler proofs to me. I mean, why would you need to hug your best friend like that? When you are perfectly fine at hugging your other male friends? (He hugged Dustin in the first episode btw).

Given everything that we know so far, that Will has feelings for Mike because he made him the painting that El said is for someone he likes; that there must be problems going on in the Milkvan relationship; that Mike is hiding his face and dressing unlike normal.... yeah he's trying to repress something. He won't let himself hug his best friend. Will is acting normal, they could have made him the one not to hug Mike because he is in love with him, but they didn't.

Also, unlike the Milkvan reunion, his face and his reaction can be very easily seen here. They literally zoom in on both their reactions to seeing each other because it is more important than Mike and El's reunion. This is what the scene is about!! It's main focus is on the development of byler and the breakdown of Milkvan. There are like very little extras passing across the camera because the directors want you to focus on their reactions here and how Will and Mike are feeling.

Obviously, Will is dejected but Mike's reaction is more telling. On the right gif, he looks down. Maybe he sees Will's painting and remembers what El told him, which was that it was for someone that Will likes. In my opinion, Mike does not know that it is for him. In Finn's words: 'I don't think he knows'.

After seeing that painting, he instantly looks to other people for their reactions to the hug, maybe being like, hey guys was that normal enough? Did anyone see that? Showing how he cares about the opinions of those around him or maybe that he doesn't want to look at Will for much longer idk.

After that...

Okay so now he's ready to ask about the painting. There's a beat, then he asks 'Uh, what's that' in this kind of breathy, panicky voice. It's not a casual tone at all, it's very tense, and the audience can tell, because this makes the audience tense too. When I first watched it I was like AHHH because oh shit. He asks it like he knows something is up with it, he knows that Will made it and it's significant.

The next shot is a slide-up from the painting to Will's face. This could be in Mike's pov to show that he was looking Will up and down, and this shot is inherently kind of romantic in that way. Either that or it's simply just to focus on the painting before showing what Will's going to say so that the audience know he's talking about the painting.

You can kind of see the cogs working in Will's head in the very little time between 'um' and 'it's nothing', as he realises that he probably shouldn't show Mike the painting based on how Mike didn't hug him.

Also notice how in the gif, an extra walks by the camera as soon as Will is not entirely truthful, so why would this not be done with El and Mike's reunion scene??

Now, this further pushes the agenda that Mike didn't hug Will because of his feelings for him. The audience already knows that this painting is supposed to be a gift for someone that Will 'likes' based on El's letter to Mike at the beginning. The fact that Will no longer feels comfortable with sharing that painting means that he is more unsure of Mike's feelings now that he's seen him irl.

However, the way that Mike goes cool is supposed to be weird. It's supposed to show the audience that he's pretending. I honestly don't know whether it's bias or the directors or the writers or the actors somehow made it this way but the speed at which Mike says 'cool' kind of just implies that he was not ready for that kind of confrontation. He was not ready to confront his feelings or enter into an interaction with Will about the painting. Because it means he can't deny the fact that he's jealous of Will having a crush on some girl. So he quickly shut it down.

He doesn't want to feel the disappointment that Will just basically confirmed the painting isn't for him.

In season 3, he is very interested in knowing who Suzie is, Dustin's girlfriend, but when he knows that Will has made a painting for a girl he likes, he doesn't bother asking at all what it is or who the girl is. He doesn't want to acknowledge it.

Also, the fact he wasn't ready to feel like this and is so focused on Will is shown by how startled he is by other people breaking the moment.

Now this next part is so funny given what we have already been presented with. We already know that Mike is self-conscious about hugging his supposed best friend, and that he does not want to confront his feelings about the painting. He is trying to be someone else because he is wearing unusual clothes for him, trying to seem like a normal person in California. He didn't want to hug his best friend because he wants to seem normal. He's out of character.

"Oh no, no. It's a shitty knockoff."

Laughing my whole ass off.

This ties the whole scene together. It makes the audience go OHHH right he's just been pretending this whole time (if they have any sense). It's genius writing. Without Argyle saying this, we might never really have full confirmation on whether he is really out of character or whether this is just how he has always been. NO, he is lying to himself. He is pretending.

They did not have to make Argyle say this. Ever heard of double meanings folks?

And Mike's reaction?

This reaction has always kind of been interesting to me. How would you assume how Mike would react to someone insulting him? Usually he would scowl or look annoyed but here he doesn't, he almost looks worried. Like oh no he's just been found out lmao

After this there's an awkward moment spurred on by Argyle Mike's like 'yeah this is so awkward'.

Now, since I'm literally Mike and he is me, I know what he's doing here by saying this.

I've done it before, it's where you kind of say that it's really awkward in order to make it seem like you're not the one making it awkward, like you're blaming other people (which he always does).

But Michael, it's kind of your fault?? Like, you didn't have to do the bro tap, you also didn't have to act that way around Argyle.

BRO WE ARE HALFWAY THROUGH NOW LMAOOOO THIS IS SUCH A LONG POST

Now onto the next part, where El is talking about Rink-o-mania and she starts lying again. I have watched this scene over and over and literally Mike barely looks at her once, while he glances at Will multiple times. I feel like audience members don't catch this explicitly, but subconsciously, they can sense that there is tension between the two because of the way that Will is placed during this scene…

I counted them up in this video and Mike glances at Will..

6 Times

Just want to say before we talk about each glance, this scene is extremely telling. It tells you exactly, through subtext, what the atmosphere between Will, Mike and El is going to be like throughout the season/ the beginning of the season. It's textbook foreshadowing.

Will is standing off to the side while Mike has his arm like really tightly around El. They could have had this scene be a cute scene between Milkvan because of how close they are, but instead this scene is about Will's sadness, about how he was ignored by Mike. He's still holding the painting, so the audience are still aware of its existence and what it could imply for Mike and El's relationship.

This scene is also about El lying! Not about how 'cute' Mike and El are.

Okay so here is me talking about every single glance <3

"Wha- Really?" -- Could Mike make it clearer if he tried? I think this is the most obvious one that the audience could easily catch, if they are watching without distraction. Which is important, because it is the first one. He stutters over his words when he realises that Will is looking back at him. Sound familiar? In a much more obvious scene, he does this with the triple take in the desert... It's also kind of clear that they looked at each other because Mike and Will look down/ away straight after Mike goes 'wha-'

"Trust me" "No I trust you" -- So this one's a little more subtle and maybe to the audience it could seem like Mike's looking at El, but then the camera turns to focus directly on Will and him looking at Mike with disappointment. I don't think he's upset about Mike completely ignoring him, but he's upset about this weird little awkward dance they're doing. The reaction from Will is because of the uncertainty. The fact they focus on Will with a single shot at all instantly makes this scene about his emotions primarily. This becomes a pattern.

"Rink-o-mania..." -- This one's also super subtle. I'm not even sure why Mike looked at Will here, but it is clear that he's not looking at El, if you want to slow it down then you ig. Maybe he sensed that Will was staring at him just a few seconds prior.

"Are your friends gonna meet us there?" -- Even though he is speaking to El, he looks at Will. This kind of shows that even when he is supposedly thinking about El and what they are going to do together, subconsciously, his mind is still on Will. This can then be seen in the Rink-o-mania argument when it is revealed that he has been focusing on Will's reactions all day when the audience believes originally that he was ignoring him: "You were! You were rolling your eyes, you were moping, you were barely talking, you basically sabotaged the whole day!" Mike, Mike, Mike. Your girlfriend being bullied didn't ruin the day, Will being pissy to you did? ANYWAYS THIS ISNT ABOUT RINKOMANIA JHDGASJHDG

"Friends what friends?" -- So this fifth one is kind of ambiguous because he has his visor on, hiding his expression and where his eyes are looking. But you can see with the way his head turned, that he was looking at Will because of the way he said "Friends what friends?" This is probably just Mike being confused on what's going on, then. BUT it is another thing that makes this whole scene not about 'uwu mike and el awww' but about Will's feelings or the fact that El's lying and the unstableness of their relationship.

"Angela?" -- This one is very notable. Firstly, here is what we know: Mike knows about the fact that Will has probably done the painting for a 'girl he likes'. Mike thinks that this 'girl' isn't him because Will says 'it's nothing'. Mike maybe thinks that El's friends are also Will's friends. AND Mike does not want to ask Will about the girl he likes because he doesn't want to know about Will liking someone else/ he does not want to confront his own feelings. So, The way that Mike looks at Will with that kind of dead expression, (and he actually does a little double take) is super duper telling. You don't know what he's thinking but if you read into it, he could be thinking that Will was feeling hopeful that Angela would come and is kind of nervous for it.

Finally, El says "I want this day to be about me and you!" which is meant to be ironic. The showrunners would not have put this little line in if it wasn't supposed to be funny tbh..... like this whole scene was about how El was lying and she's suddenly saying it's just about them.

Because of what she says as well, Will rolls his eyes and crushes his painting a bit. (HEARTBREAKING)... The fact that he rolls his eyes is probably just him being annoyed about what she said, because it further makes him feel like the third wheel. The scene ends with his eye roll, emphasising how this whole scene was about how Will is feeling, not the "Main Couple Of The Show tm??" But alsoooo, he crushes the painting :(((( meaning he was also feeling heartbroken a little by the fact that they are acting very coupley and Mike doesn't seem to care about him oops, since the painting is for him.

OKAY IM DONE LMAOOOO

In conclusion, this scene is about byler in the first half, and the flaws of Milkvan and Will's feelings in the second half. This scene is meant to foreshadow the arc between Will, El and Mike which transpires in the rest of the season. The bro tap is the gayest thing I've ever seen, and did not have to be included in this scene. It could have been Will that was awkward. It shows that Mike has changed. He has changed ever since Will moved away and he had that realisation. In season 3, Mike seems confused, unaware of his feelings. But now, in this scene, in only 2 minutes, we know for sure that Mike is in denial. He knows.

Anyways

Byler Endgame.

[love-byers]

some compelling byler proof?

the fact that before s4, david harbour said "if you've been watching the show you should know, will isn't interested in el, he's interested in someone else in the group"

"If you've been watching the show, you should know."

that's interesting considering before s4, will doesn't do much of anything that would blatantly show he has feelings mike. all of will and mikes relationship in s1 and most of it in s2 is emphasized on mike. will is just existing, and mike is reacting to him. the only things will does (which according to the cast is supposed to imply his romantic feelings) is yell for mike when he was having an episode, and say only mike understands him. so that's supposed to imply romance, but mike initiating physical touch (putting an arm around him x2, holding his hand), being protective of him, noticing the slightest change in his behavior, sleeping on his floor, sleeping in his hospital room, saying asking him to be friends is the best thing he's ever done while CRYING DOESNT? NONE OF THAT MOUNTAIN OF INTERACTIONS IMPLIES ROMANCE??

in fact, before s4 lots of people didn't believe will was queer at all, let alone had feelings for mike. but those people were wrong. if you've been watching the show, you should know.

that without a doubt means they have been hinting at will's feelings, you just have to pay attention. you're supposed to be noticing these small things. it means exactly what you think it means. sometimes it's the small things that say everything.

david harbour in that same video also said "will said he wants to be in the basement with mike playing dnd for the rest of his life."

and finn wolfhard chimed in "--for the rest of his life, exactly! and he said that!"

the funniest part of this is that will didn't say that. it was mike who brought that up, will just said "yeah i did think that." in a dramatic fight where MIKE IS THE BAD GUY!!!! MIKE IS THE ASSHOLE AND FEELS GUILTY!!!!!

and the way finn emphasizes "and he said that!", clearly frustrated with the people who tried to twist it to not be romantic when it means exactly what is said. and it's not like will or mike imply it's romantic either.

when you want to spend the rest of your life with someone, that's romantic.

so it seems fair to say when you think asking someone to be your friend is the best decision you've ever made in your whole life, that's romantic too.

"What did you think, really? Did you think we were never gonna get girlfriends? That we were just gonna sit in my basement all day and play games for the rest of our lives?"

"Yeah, I guess I did. I really did."

all of that is, according to the cast, meant to directly acknowledge will's feelings, EVEN THOUGH there is a thin veil that could potentially lead you to believe that will is just mad because the group is falling apart. will wants to be in mikes basement playing dnd for the rest of his life, and he confirmed it himself.

if you've been watching, you should know.

so that is supposed to very obviously be hinting at will's feelings, but mike saying "it was the best thing i've ever done" means nothing? that has no veil. that is not unclear. after s5 i could definitely see the cast saying "mike thinks asking will to be his friend is the best thing he's ever done" and finn going "HE SAID THAT!!! HE SAID IT HIMSELF!!!!!!!"

[0daylighthours0]

A Deep Dive into Milkvan and Byler's Development: If Milkvan Was Endgame All Along, Why Was it Written Like This???

SO. I've been rewatching st with my mother, who's never seen it before. And she was a fan of milkvan throughout seasons 1 and 2. Viewing those seasons again I could see why, they're cute. However, come season 3 and INSTANT distaste. And, listen, my mother is not the consciously shipping gal. She simply routes for main character pairings as writers intend, doesn't read between the lines, doesn't nothing. And she does NOT know my own opinions on the pairing. In other words, completely unbiased, uninternet drama influenced eyes. We've now reached season 3 and, after getting through a chunk of it, I asked her,

"so what do you think of Mike and El?"

and she expressed to me that they seem to be, quote:

"not very good together."

She said El's character doesn't suit the way she's acting now (in the first few episodes, concerning Mike), that Mike is more likeable and interesting when he's away from her. She doesn't like the way they ditched the party, and when it comes to their 'making out' the scenes are seen by her from Hopper's perspective (in other words, distasteful). She claimed that they'd be much better characters as friends.

And ya know what, she's right. And I mean like - duh, that's what we've been saying all this time, I'm not stating anything new here. But guys, wouldn't it be strange if the central couple of the show, pivotal that it is liked by audiences and is rooted for by them as they are THE pair, would be so dislikable like this? So uninteresting, so cliche.

I mean, okay, let's do a little mental experiment I like to do to test if I'm not just acting delulu. Let's play a game. In this game, milkvan ARE meant to be endgame. They are in love, they were all along, and they're here to draw in viewers and appease all El stans. Now, seasons 1 and 2 their relationship is honestly fine. Surface level, yeah, people will watch and appreciate them. They perfectly blend in with all the other neat pairings of the seasons, and have their own unique character traits to stand out as a main couple.

Just pretending our mate Will doesn't exist, we now get into season 3. Now, writers have nothing to lose here. If you've finished season 2, you probably like milkvan already. The issue is that they're already together now, so what's the conflict going to be? The arc? And every central couple needs that conflict to stay juicy.

Just take a look:

Jancy: quarrels, struggle to understand one another

Jopper: not yet together, one sided? will they won't they

Lumax: ...

Lumax? Lumax. Huh, guess they were simply together. Some loveable bickering, maintained a friendly dynamic while clearly in closer proximity. Well then, writers can do the same for milkvan right? Well, yes easily. But one might argue that since they are supposed to be THE pairing they need more going on between them than that. So what'll it be? Well, it seems that writers thought,

"hey, why not break them up?"

ok so.. that's a bit risky. I mean you want people to like this ship, if you break them up then that threats: 1. there being a disliking to one or both characters, 2. coming off generic if done incorrectly, 3. the break up might make no sense considering how in love they came off as just a season ago. But hey.. it could work, if done right. Some kind of misunderstanding, similar to Jancy. Maybe an argument leading to a sudden parting. I mean, yeah, Yeah! I can see that. Perhaps Mike is being too overprotective whilst El's trying to sacrifice herself for something, so she NEEDS to separate herself from him attempting to hurt him less. Or, I dunno, something akin. What's crucial is that us, AS THE AUDIENCE, still know them to be deeply in love. I mean, we have to still want them to be together. And we've seen couple trouble before. Just take a look at Lumax season 4 - did you or did you not want the best for both of them as a pair? You most likely did. See, it's doable. So did people like milkvan season 3 the same way, even after a separation plot? No.

Okay well, there are obviously those who'll always love milkvan no matter but, see, season 3 tainted it. "We need to write them like this cause it's more realistic to teenager behavior" my ars. You can make it messy without making it icky. Not only did it sour their unique dynamic, it flabbergastingly stomped on Mike as a character.

Honestly, I feel Mike has always been a mild struggle to write. Season 1 his motivations were 'find Will' (who still doesn't exist in our mind game yet shh) and 'protect El'. This worked well for him. Afterwards though, El and Will became more separate plots to him. But as a main character it remained integral that he be closely linked to them somehow. This sets him apart from Lucas and Dustin, who can easily be given any arc any season as their plots have the flexibility of a side quest nature. Since what Mike does is meant to matter more - with there probably being a better way of phrasing that but you know what I mean - it's harder knowing what he'll do when El and Will (who we'll GET to sh.) are their own separate people. And Mike is just a boy, he doesn't have super powers and he isn't a cop, which leaves there even less for him to do which is of significance. Season 2 writers decided upon having him support Will's arc, making himself of enough relevance by being able to take credit for some Will development in the story, and the plots that surrounded that, and then Mike was thrown a little bone by being the one to come up with the idea of burning those vines in the finale.

Truthfully, you don't really remember Mike's deeds much when reminiscing the series. It isn't like Dustin who's bond with Dart sticks to everyone, or Nancy and Jonathan responsible for kicking out Hawkins Lab. This is due to them, again, being able to traverse all sorts of adventures without limits. But my guy Mike can't do dat. Sadly, this kind of leads to him coming of as a little.. well... insignificant. And I know I know, the Mike truthers are gonna come at my throat. And hey! I love him too. I only want the best for my boy.

This makes season 3 a unique case cause it seems that, for the plot they decided they wanted, writers actually had to almost entirely change his character. I mean mate s2 Mike and s3 Mike are two different peoples, don't even. And I don't believe that the Duffers had their story and character turnouts completely drawn out from the very start at all. If I was to guess, I'd assume they have vague ideas of little plots they plan to include in future, but there is definitely a lot that has come unpredicted or changed throughout st's runtime. And one of those phenomenons are Michael Wheeler. So they decided to make this guy a di-

So they decided to make him more douchy, more movie typical teenage guy. It's not as if he wholly sucked, he didn't, but he didn't really do much. Whined about his girlfriend, separated the party. I mean what even was his arc? (UnLESS–)

You see, if milkvan is written to be loved, then season 3 was strike one. All of its charm was stripped away. It seems they had some cute scenes after their reconciliation, but it's not enough. It's just sort of

"oh, ok, so they're happy with eachother now. yayy."

and Stranger Things should want to be anything but boring. Sure they often enjoy indulging in tropes, but they always do something different with them. Something standoutish. And from this point on milkvan just got dull. Either writers ran out of ideas or lost interest, honestly (still with our mind game of telling ourselves they're meant to be).

But it's okay. Look, so season 3 was a bit rocky, maybe lost a couple of fans for the guys, but it is salvageable. Easily, easily. Looks like we want a plot of Mike struggling to tell El he loves her. Great! Much to work with.

So let's get into it. Season 4! Choices were... made. And, okay, now we can't go any further without bringing in our boy Will.

Mike is intrinsically tied to Will and El and has been from the start. Maybe Will was more of an accident. Maybe s1 Will was just a plot device for Mike, then s2 Will was a plot device again and Mike needed to be there as the main boy character. Come season 3 and it seems their relationship still matters. Will was sidelined - hard - so most of Mike's moments revolved around El. But as his bond with Mike is the only that's been properly built up, that's the only friend we'll get him interacting with in a way that matters. So the Mike and Will tie continues!

But that does not have to be the case for season 4. Now the writers have a chance.

They made Will gay.

Ok so.. ok so yeah that's fine. Yeah! I mean they didn't have to do that, might put them in hot water with the bylers since milkvan is their golden beauty but.. you know what no no that's okay. He's been hinted at being queer since episode 1, why not make it canon! Cool that works. Explore that, especially since we now have Vecna who can easily target Will for this. Give him a boyfriend! Or a guy crush. He's at a new school now? That's cool. Maybe we can explore some new male character Will's taken interest in. Hey maybe he meets someone who interests him which rises to surface his whole sexuality plot and-

he's in love with Mike.

Ok. No. No. What are you doing? What do you mean?? You didn't have to do that. Strike- strike EFING TWO mates! Strike. 👏 efing. 👏 2!

This was part 1. I am tired and gots to get my ars in bed. But ohohoh, do not worry. I am just getting started.

[carigm]

About Dyersfilm’s “leak”

For all of you who don’t know, dyersfilm is an insufferable individual who used to go by the name of swiftlynatalia. She is racist, homophobic, transphobic, and even made fun of her supposed favorite actress’ eating disorder. However, people on Twitter (especially mlvns) entertain her because she had reliable sources during the filming of S4, and after during post production. She had some true leaks, many being the same that Reddit got right, while others only she had. She was also wrong about quite a few things, but generally she was reliable.

It is worth noting though that she is extremely biased against byler (many of the leaks she got wrong for S4 were pertaining their storyline) and absolutely hates the ship.

This time around, she was getting some leaks during the first couple of months of filming to her curious cat, but she herself claimed that these were not reliable leaks whatsoever and that she was pissed because this time she doesn’t have access to the real sources she had for S4. She has complained about this repeatedly for these past few months. The leaks she has gotten tho, many she has mocked and made fun of because they don’t align with what she wants from the show. She also made a “disclaimer” when the show started filming again that she would not be posting leaks about Byler because she hates us all, and yet every single one of those most likely fake leaks she got she posted, and many of them talked about Byler. She would post them and mock them for “clearly being untrue”. She has barely gotten a single Mlvn positive leak this whole time, and when she’s gotten at least something that alludes to them having scenes together she immediately ran to post it and alert all her friends, even tho she herself knows all of these are most likely fake.

For weeks now, her curious cat has been dry af because I guess nda’s are stronger this time, or no one wants to leak shit to her (she’s rude as hell). she posted the following ask 10 days ago. Someone asked her if she knew about any Mike and El scenes and she said no. Keep this in mind for what’s coming next…

Then suddenly yesterday, she alluded to a Jonathan spoiler she’s supposedly pissed about, but refused to post it like she’s done for everything else. People quickly thought it might involve Byler because she said she wasn’t going to post “leaks” about it, even though she had already lol. So they asked her and she said that “yes, it has to do with Byler.”

Then shortly after this someone asked about Mlvn again, this was just today. Again, note how she proceeds to say she knows nothing about Mlvn 😭

Bylers on Twitter noticed her answers about Mlvn and her comment about a supposed byler leak involving Jonathan and started speculating. She ofc noticed this, and not even after an hour of her saying she knows nothing about Mlvn she goes on to say this.

….

She knows nothing but somehow she knows Mlvn is stable? The bipolar disorder of these answers could rival my own bipolar.

Mind you, we all know that she would’ve jumped up at the first opportunity to post any leak that implied Will was pining and miserable, her and her friends would’ve had a field day over it. And yet, she only clarifies this after…

Not to mention how utterly ridiculous this all is. They’ve filmed stuff up until episode 4 (from what we know), why the hell would Will be pining and hung up over Mike if Mlvn is endgame? That makes absolutely no fucking sense. They would have him immediately fully patch things up with Mike and move on, not be hung up on someone he can’t have in the middle of an apocalypse. Especially not after the Duffers said he’s getting a happy ending. Will getting a happy ending but still being in love with Mike halfway through the last season with Mlvn being endgame is absolute lunacy.

Especially when you consider the fact that narratively, in a sense, Will has already moved on. He doesn’t expect anything from Mike, he doesn’t think Mike can like him back. He saw Mike confess his love in front of El, he helped that confession happen. Will literally has no problem with Mlvn anymore pls 😭 He saved them!!

This is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever read.

Will is somehow upset at Mike not feeling the same way…when Will already believes Mike doesn’t feel the same and doesn’t ever expect any reciprocation 😭

Either she’s wildly twisting this supposed leak out of context to fit her own perceived narrative of what should happen, or she’s straight up lying about this.

And we know she’s lying about Mlvn so…you people decide what you think of this buffoonery lol.

Wait for Reddit leaks y’all. This woman could get a legit leak saying Byler is endgame and dig her own grave before posting it.

[justmy-account]

List of byler-gates

I’m just bored, but read it anyways, it’s fun

there sooo many of them, and i’m still pretty lazy so this isn’t perfect, but just let’s start

Mikhailgate

This is practically anti byler theory, but nvm

So, Dimitri has a son named Mikhail, which is russian version of name Michael, Mike

So, people were just saying that instead of Mike, Will will end up with Mikhail(who’s technically Mike bc of the name, yk)

I think everyone was just joking, oh, good ol’ times

and willloveinterestgate is the same

Lettergate/Pocketgate

These theories aren’t the same one, but it’s basically the same concept, ig

The basic thing is, that Mike wrote a letter to Will(singed Love, Mike)

In pocketgate, Mike has the letter saved in his triangle pocket, bc in st, characters many times has letters, that were important to them, in their left pocket(above the heart), for example Hopper and El(Hopper’s heart-to-heart), Jonathan(acceptance letter to college) etc.

And he would just take it out in the middle of confession or sth

+the triangle always points to Will like an arrow

Lettergate is just basically the same, ok, idk how to describe it differently 

Twelvegate

Not exactly a byler, but theory, that Will was number twelve in HNL, and that he’s El’s actual twin

And from that, there’s theory that Will has powers, but wasn’t n. 012

Okay, back to byler

This is same as rainbowgate i think

Flickergate

This theory is very lovely! after Will tells Mike that rolled seven in s1, the light behind them flickers

and since ud is frozen on nov6 83, when you signal sth from ud, it should appear at nov6 83-s1

this connects to electricgate(i dunno if sth like this exist, but just keep reading), the electricity~are friends electric~will possibly having electric powers

so mike and will could go together in s5 to ud on a mission or sth, and kiss in wheelers garage, and that would make the light flicker(i’m so good at explaining things, right😐)

will and mike going to ud together is predicted by mike and will sitting on upside down couch in last ep. of s4

Birthdaygate/Memorygate

Soo, remember how they forgot Will’s birthday? what if all wills memories, that people reminded him of in the shed are gone? his birthday, building castle byers, meeting mike… and that’s why mike says that his life started the day he found her, bc he doesn’t remember meeting Will

for me, it’s really weird, they couldn’t just forget Will’s birthday, no, this ain’t it

Kiss at lovers lake

I’m not sure if this has a different name, but it’s that their first kiss will be near lovers lake

evidence: patrick(the kid who died at lovers lake), had a nickname “berlin wall” or sth(we saw this in the school newspaper), and it was devided to four, same as hawkins

and song heroes is abt couple who lived at different sides of berlin wall, and idk, it just connects, okay?

when will painted the map of hawkins while he was possessed, mike was holding blue and yellow meter

Eightfifteengate

Context: will left the wheelers at 8:15 in s1

in s1e1, time mark 8:15 is literally the shot where will disappears in the shead

i think there’s a season 2 soundtrack called eight fifteen

tw: time fuckery: while will was recording on halloween night, the time says 8:04 while he’s recording mike saying “did you agreed with this?”, but when joyce rewatches it, it show 8:15(byler)

“ it’s 8:15, you’re late”

btw, clocks and watches from hiroshima are stuck at 8:15

aaanywaaay, there’s just too much 8:15 things, aaah(this is just a few)

what it has to do with byler?

well, 15-8=….(wait for it)….seven. a byler number. it was a seven!

also, “the first lie”, when murray says this to jancy, the time mark is… guess what, 8:15

there’s this theory with the songs “the first lie” and “the first i love you”, and it just connects 

Motelgate

theory, that after mike’s “love” confession to el, they went to a motel for sleep, and mike and will had to share a bed, and we could possibly see flashbacks of it in s5, and it would kinda explain the two day skip

Colorgate

blue and yellow meet in the west, i’m sure you know this one, and there’s sooo many evidence in this

mattduffersbasementgate

It’s too late for this to be true, but the duffers are(/were) holding every cast member that ships byler in their basement, lol

bloopergate

Bloopers from byler scenes, basically, for example “not when i was the spy, oh fuck”, basically Finn and Noah being all giggly, i guess

bloopergate implies to every blooper, but why not to mention it

curtaingate

Sth like, that when there’s some fight happening between characters, if curtains are open, it means they’re open with their feeling and opposite 

Example: milkvan make out scene-closed, but you don’t love me fight-opened

Bonus: „ but they like the curtain. people like us are just trying to look behind the curtain”(my very bad quotation of murray, yk what i mean)

Also, Suzie had blue and yellow curtains, and they were opened

And, “and i love her and i can’t lose her again”? Also curtains closed, like wtf, this fandom is crazy

piggybackgate

El knows abt Mike and Will. she saw how they act around each other, she’ve heard will saying “you’re the heart” to mike, saw that mike has Will’s painting now

New Coke Theory

basically, old coca colla is mileven, new coke is byler. it contains some of the old ingredients(mike), and new ones too(will). not everyone likes(bc its gay ship). and when you look at scenes with can of new coke, it’s many times symbolizing byler vs. milkvan

one of my favorite new coke theory examples is this: in s3, after el gets attacked by the flesh monster, she tries to crash a can(but she doesn’t have her powers, so she can’t). this is a can of new coke(byler) and she can’t crush that/destroy it. and in this scene, we get a flashback to the lab, where she crushes aka destroys regular coke(mileven)

phonegate

mike and will not calling each other, bc of joyce’s telemarketer job(he won’t stop whining abt it)

————

i miss all these little silly theories abt literally everything

i hope the byler tag will be like this once again

maybe we could start naming our new theories “gate”s again

for example: heartfeltgat, strangerwritersgate, snowkissgate or sth

anyway, byee

[henrysglock]

“Gay Mike vs Bi Mike makes a huge difference in his personal character arc, because it changes everything regarding his relationship with El, his relationship to his Reagan-supporter parents, and the blowback from all the homophobic bullies across the years picking on Will for being”

I mean I just don’t see how that’s true? I DO care about Mike outside of byler. In fact, he’s the character I relate to most and the one I find the most interesting. I think both gay Mike and bi Mike theories are valid and possible. I see both arguments and I nod in agreement.

And I feel like all the things you listed fully apply to Mike regardless of where he falls on the Kinsey scale? I go back and forth on it.

I think there are great people on both sides and see the argument for both. I just don’t see the point of fighting or drawing a line in the sand when we really don’t know anything for certain, y’know? I guess I don’t see much meaningful difference in the queer experience and what being bi vs. gay would mean for Mike’s character? It’s not that there aren’t smaller nuances, but to me, they are just that: small. The basic story and arc remains the same!

I would agree that everything changes depending on Mike’s specific sexuality if I believed a specific label changes things in general? But I’m bi, and it’s not like I would stop relating to Mike if he’s gay? Or if he’s unlabeled? At the end of the day he’s queer, and the queer experience is relatable!

To me everything’s fluid, and experiences and feelings can look pretty similar across the spectrum. I respect those who are able to “pick a side.” But I guess I just don’t see much value in “sides” if that makes sense? When Mike gets more focus in S5, I think it will be clearer. But until then, it feels like pointless fighting?

I’m willing to change my mind. But I haven’t seen anything that convinces me Mike’s story is meaningfully different if he’s gay or bi.

I guess I don’t see much meaningful difference in the queer experience...It’s not that there aren’t smaller nuances, but to me, they are just that: small. At the end of the day he’s queer, and the queer experience is relatable!

How do I explain to you that the difference between homosexuality and bisexuality aren't small, and they are meaningful, or that experiences as a gay person are different from experiences as a bisexual person.

I’m willing to change my mind. But I haven’t seen anything that convinces me Mike’s story is meaningfully different if he’s gay or bi.

Marie's page is a good place to start irt Mike:

And so is Em's:

Do your own research, Nonnie. Posts have been out there since 2022.

[medilies]

Byler fic rec - 5 WIPs that are worth it

I know some of y'all don't like reading incomplete fics, but here are some that are so good even the WIP averse won't regret reading them.

These fics are still updating (just not very regularly) so you will get the complete story eventually.

As you can probably guess, they're all longer chaptered fics, so expect multi-layered plots with at least a healthy dose of angst in each.

cosmonaut. by ghostshaming (T, ~82k, 15/?)

Gut wrenching. Heart breaking. A deep dive into Mike's depression and what could have been. You'll notice the writing is beautifully sensory, I'd also say this fic probably is the closest to the show plotwise. One of those fics that has its own little vibe unlike anything else.

them's the breaks by emelinelou (not rated but I'd say T, ~90k, 14/?)

A bit of canon divergence here where Will can mind-travel into the Upside Down and make it his own... or so he thinks. And ik I'm saying this for all of them but this is just fucking BRILLIANT - the overall tone is a bit more lighthearted than cosmonaut despite the characters still getting into some sticky situations, the byler of it all is ~chef's kiss~ and I really like the characterization of Mike and Will here (that is, if they were the type of people to greet each other with 'Yo').

If You Stay by Flurryofstarz (M, 52k, 11/?)

The Proposal AU! This is another fun, fairly lighthearted one. I watched the film for the first time after reading this, and I gotta say, I was disappointed - this is so much better than the film imo!! (Read: more meaningful conversations between the two leads, fewer bizarre moments thrown in, well adapted to fit byler, just as much comedy, and more drama heheh). A wonderful fic, whether you've seen The Proposal or not.

Make Believe by Flurryofstarz (E, ~84k, 17/?)

Flurryofstarz strikes again! This is an a/b/o fic, in which Mike does everything in his power to protect Will, who he's sure will present as a male omega, the most oppressed designation. (Don't worry if you don't know what the terminology means, it's all explained!) This fic is so intricate and beautiful and stays so true to the characters, it had me SCREAMING at Mike at some points, because that boy has good intentions but that does not translate to good outcomes. This is definitely one of the more serious fics, with no end to the angst in sight. 10/10. Go read it.

(Also, note that while it's marked as explicit, it hasn't yet reached any NSFW content, so please don't let that stop you. Though be warned there are some uncomfortable moments thanks to our favourite small town bullies - so far I'd rate it M.)

the vale of shadows by sevensided (stonedlennon) (M, ~30k, 11/?)

I mean, duh. Everyone's familiar with sevensided's legendary work a dream always the same - that's just basic byler lore - and this is the third and final installment of that series, in a fantasy setting this time! I can't say much more for fear of spoiling it, but trust me when I say it's equally brilliant as ADATS.

This is the only fic on this list where I'm not 100% sure if they'll continue to update. Even if they don't, though, the latest chapter ends on a nice note.

That's all, go give these amazing stories some love!

[mikeslawyer]

as a will byers fan I respect byler and won’t have an issue of it happening but I don’t think it’s fair for bylers to insist that it’s the only way for will. He absolutely could do better and open his horizons he is only 15 years old, in his head he’s thinking that’s it that’s all he has but I think for his coming of age they could show that he isn’t alone out there and that he could find love somewhere. It absolutely doesn’t have to be with mike either and I know this will trigger a lot of you since your hardcore bylers, but this is coming from a person whose only looking at this from a different view. I think he deserves more then what Mike could give him cause Mike is dealing with his own stuff and has made some mistakes regarding Will, plus he has his relationship with el he’s dealing with.

Again I wouldn’t be mad if byler was endgame cause if wills happy then I’m happy, but If it’s not I understand it exactly it’s all I’m saying.

I truly don’t even know where to start telling you how wrong you are.

First off, let me address the “he’s only 15 years old and he thinks he doesn’t have perspectives” because no. Will absolutely knows he has perspectives, he just doesn’t want them. Let’s not forget he lived in California for a year and even though it’s still the 80s, it was much more open and progressive than Indiana. California passed one of the freedom laws in 1974, following with more - they basically agreed that if both parties have consented, then it’s none of their business what’s happening between two people. They allowed gay people to be open, to express themselves.

Secondly, Freddie Mercury, David Bowie and many, many others existed and spoke up regularly and openly. Look up either of their interviews. Will knows he’s not alone, he’s not the only one. He literally moved back to Lenora, but he simply doesn’t want to. My guess is he explored his sexuality there, met more gay people, learnt about himself. Mind you, he doesn’t hate himself for being gay. He knows he can’t change it - it’s Mike who’s denying his own sexuality. Will has long since come to terms with being gay.

Another thing - I hate when people say that Mike can’t give him everything he deserves, because yes, he absolutely can and will and would always. Did we watch the same show? Mike would and has walked through hell and back for Will. His first insist when they were being shot at was to literally shield Will with his own body. Mike doesn’t see the world besides Will - he literally said that his home isn’t home because Will isn’t there. He has repeatedly, time after time, proved how much Will means to him.

Yes, Mike has problems with his relationship with El, so what? Let’s not forget that he, too, is fifteen years old and he, in contrast to Will, did not spend a year in California, a place much more open than Hawkins. Another thing, as much as Nancy would protect her brother no matter the situation, they don’t exactly talk. Meanwhile, Will has unconditional love from both his mom and his brother, who have shown him support when he cried. Mike would rather die than cry around Nancy or his mom. He has no one to turn to, no one. The only person he trusts like that is Will, who not only is the problem Mike is struggling with but also seems to just not get him anymore.

Lastly, putting all of this aside. Will is in love with Mike. He doesn’t want better. He wants Mike and I cannot stress this enough. And saying that he deserves better than the closest person in his life, someone who would walk through fire for him, someone who literally would and has protected him at the cost of heir own life - saying that just proves that you don’t understand either of their characters.

[ronanceautistic]

Okay you know what on that note? - here's my ranking of ship names. Literally nothing to do with the ship itself, just how the names sound to me.

Ronance - A+ - It's like romance but with an N, what else is there to say? I think the only possible point I could take from it is I, personally, never call her Nance but, like, Robin does in canon. So everything's okay.

Byclair - A - It's cute and I like it.

Jancy - A - I like it! I think it grew on me after I saw The Florida Project and Drawtectives because honestly? I kinda just like it as a regular ass name.

Cheerwheeler - A - Beautiful from an unbiased perspective and totally not from the guy that made it up.

Steddie - A - It's a very solid ship name I think even if I didn't know who it was I would probably guess it was two gay white boys. You did well.

Hellcheer - A - Tells you everything you need to know I mean what can I say.

Henclair - B+ - Another good Clair one.

Ednancy - B - It's a solid name and I don't have to do a lot of thinking to know who it is.

Henfield - B - I don't even know if this is the ship name for Max and Dustin because I rarely hear about the ship. But it works!

Byler - C+ - It's fine, it works, but considering Jonathan and Nancy could also technically go by the ship name I think the only thing that makes the name unique to Mike & Will is just because of how popular the ship is.

Rovickie - C+ - It works, I immediately can decipher who the people are, and it sounds good.

Wheelingham - C+ - it's okay I can't complain.

Elmax - C+ - same feeling as Lumax but I think it's slightly better

Lumax - C+ - It's good, it's solid, I have nothing against it. But it's also not amazing. Mayclair is better IMO (for some reason I'm a sucker for the names ending in Clair)

Mileven - C - It's fine. It works. It's not creative and it sounds average but like, that's okay!

Jopper - C - It's fine and there's not much room for improvement tbh.

Stancy - C - doesn't hit the same as Jancy but I can't think of a good alternative.

Jargyle - C - It sounds kinda garbled, I think it could be better. Don't ask me how.

Rockie - C - I don't know why people choose this one over Rovickie it's just the same name but worse.

Wheelclair - C - it's so similar to 'wheelchair' that my computer autocorrected it to wheelchair. That being said, it's hard to think of a good alternative for it.

Madwheeler - C - It's just a strange combo. I think if you're gonna go with nicknames its gotta be nickname + nickname. But, again, I think the only good alternative is Mayler and that's not even that good.

Buckingham - D - I think if it was a more popular ship it would be better, the way Byler is, but it takes me ten fucking years every single time to figure out who the two people are because I forget the last names of the obscure characters like Vickie, Chrissy, and Heather, and Robin is regularly shipped with all three.

Buckleway - D - ^ same problem as above but also at least Buckingham is creative with it.

Edancy - D - Literally just add the N after the D it's not that hard. Why does this one exist.

Duzie - D - Terrible but I can't think of something better.

Pompompistol - F - leave me alone there's literally two alts above this and you're Choosing to use this one?

[dinosaursatemymom]

Milkvan has not been built up

Macaroni and cheese could not have been intentionally built up since season 1, El was originally supposed to die.

All the build up that happened for marine biology took place in s1, the kiss and Els death was supposed to be the end of it. For something to be built up, it requires a satisfying conclusion, I believe that the build up was there in s1 and the satisfying conclusion was supposed to be the kiss and self sacrifice for the first friends El had made. Byler on the other hand, has been stated to have been thought out since s1(at least on wills part). Milktits say all the time that milkshake has been built up since the first season, but even if El wasn't supposed to die, the satisfying conclusion to the build up would be them getting together at the snoball. There is no building up in s3&4, all there is is proof that they aren't compatible. All of the conflict between them that happened in s3&4 didn't need to happen, they could've just been a happy power couple for the rest of the seasons if macrame was really endgame. Will didn't need to be in love with mike, will didn't even need to be gay if Mariah Carey was really endgame.

Now I do think that s1&2 had buildup, but the building up ended when they got together, and subsequently proved that they do not work as a couple. In s3 they broke up and lied, and in s4 they weren't together for most of the season and when they were they fought and lied. I firmly believe that just because a couple breaks up in a show doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't still being built up or aren't endgame. Take Jess and nick from New Girl for example, they dated for a while until realizing they had extremely different goals in life and did not work as a couple. Yet, during their time apart they grew as people and their goals changed, but they stayed best friends and they eventually realized that they were still in love with each other, and got back together, their goals aligning and finally working as a couple. That is what a good build up looks like, even when the couple in question breaks up.

Now let's take a look at Mel Gibson's breakup in s3, while El grew as a person during this time, mike stayed pretty much the same. The time they spent apart did not make them grow as people and become more compatible, they might have grown a little, but we're still proven to be incompatible in s4. The breakup of nick and Jess was drawn out to prove that they could grow and show that they still worked as friends, whilst macropenis break up was played as a joke and the two barely talked during the time, further proving that milkvan doesn't work well. Macroeconomics has not been built up, what happened is that the duffers have done their best to show that they are incompatible.

My guess of why milkman has been handled like this is that El was and is a fan favorite, when the duffel bags realized they couldn't kill her off they needed a way to make sure that melanin could have a satisfying ending while keeping El on the show. At the time, I believe, Motorola razr was a fan favorite ship. The duffel bagels couldn't just end it now that El was alive and well, so they had to show that they did not work as a couple, and then end it.

[findafight]

It is tiring to be regarded as a 'homophobe' when you claim to not like a queer ship or say you do not think a queer ship is going to be canon & should not go canon. ST fandom has this type of fans especially Bylers and recently Ronancers. Sorry that I do not think Byler has a chance of being wrapped up in a nice way when the writers actively refused to even breakup Mileven in this season and intentionally added a confession scene on the show from Mike to El. We literally have 1 season left with everything else going on in a limited time frame but I am expected to be okay with the possible resolution of this whole thing, and should expect a nice wrap up where we supposedly will see Mileven break up, Mike and El moving on from each other, there will be a time for them to adjust to that, for Mike to consider dating Will HECK even for Will to consider confessing and dating Mike, for the writers to make that all believable to the audience in a nice way within the narrative.... and I am expected to like Ronance when Stobin is one of the most important platonic relationships on the show and we canonically know Nancy and Steve's break up was bad, and that Steve still has feelings for Nancy. I want to see representation, I really do but it feels like the fandom itself is bending any logic and sensibility to make a ship seem reasonable and make sense within the narrative... when it really does not.

God. Yeah. Like sure queer people can have internalized homophobia or intra community basis (like bi/a/trans phobia) etc but to say someone's a bigot just because they don't like the a fictional ship, or even that they just don't think it will be canon, is just silly and causing problems on purpose.

The intense blr shippers have really turned me off the ship, honestly. I have a few asks from them saved as drafts just to get them out of my inbox, and they're saying the same as others "we're fighting homophobia" "you're just as bad as people saying why don't we shut up about blr and ship mlvn if you don't think this has been part of a grand and epic master plan for the greatest romance ever" as well as just not understanding what the very specific phenomena of queerbaiting is, all telling me I don't belong in the ship because I don't ship it correctly. So. Makes me feel bad and really disappointed. People who ship mlvn (which my original post was also tagged, because it discusses them too) DIDNT come to my inbox and call me names or a fake shipper when I said I thought they should break up. Make of that what you will.

As much as Will and Mike getting together would mean to people, putting that much emotional weight and expectation and emphasis on a single aspect of a show, a single ship, is not healthy. It also, if it does happen, will not be the epic romance planned from the start they think it is. (We remember tjlc, right?? RIGHT??) If it happens it will possibly be slap dash and rushed, because you're right. There's a lot happening, the show struggles with ending/starting romances, and they are NOT the only characters that matter. The breathing room required for both Mike and El AND the audience to make the breakup feel real and that enough time has passed to not make Mike look like an asshole for immediately dating his ex's brother (and for Will not to look like an ass for dating his sister's ex?!?) Is now insufficient given how short the seasons are, and as you said, they should've broken up in S4 to pull that off.

And then the fandom would likely feel a bit cheated after building it up so much in their heads, only for it to be a bit of a flop. But I guess a lot of people don't mind how Nancy and Jonathan got together, so with the way some of the people in my inbox were talking about El then it could be like that too. Just. Not giving a shit if someone, a character I personally love, was really hurt and betrayed by her recently ex boyfriend and her BROTHER.

Pretending it was all fine because romantic love is the most important thing ever to them I guess. When it's not, especially in the show! Non romantic bonds are so important to these characters! It would just ruin it for me, because what I was originally saying was that Will, Mike, and El all mean so much to each other and actively try to not hurt one another (even if the do accidentally or end up hurting themselves) and that, because Will and El are siblings now, Will might think twice about dating Mike so soon after he broke up with El. It would make them look cold hearted and selfish tbh. That's why a good ending would be Will feeling comfortable enough to come out, and being accepted by his friends. (All of them not just Mike) and that final emphasis on the Party as a whole rather than individual Romo relationships.

It's actually very important to consider other people's feelings in everyday life, I think. Sure, ultimately they shouldn't dictate all your actions, but there will be consequences for some of them. They can lose friendships, or other relationships. It can also make a character look REALLY BAD.

For rnce, people go on about how Robin absolutely does not need to consider Steve's feelings in pursuing a girl. (Ignoring other issues people have with the ship that have nothing to do with Steve, lol) And sure. Okay. For every girl but the one that broke his heart, cheated on him, and who he still has feelings for that Robin herself encouraged. People are out here saying they could be endgame without completely ruining stobin's friendship like huh??? Do they understand Robin "what if we just combined" Buckley? Do they not care about the most important relationship in her life? Do they not care about her beyond how she can hype up Nancy instead of one of those icky boys?

A problem I have with rnce is that a lot of the writing saying it could be canon (which, lbr, it won't be. While I think blr may be canon just in a kind of disappointing way, I don't think there's any chance of rnce happening, especially with Vickie right there blushing and flirting with Robin) only focuses on how it would be good for Nancy, or if it's trying to make it seem good for Robin ignores their personalities and other relationships. Like Nancy isn't annoyed by Robin until Robin's speech gets them into Penherst, or that Nancy wasn't dismissive of Robin's ideas, and Robin wasn't clearly nervous and apologizing for being annoying in order to get Nancy to like her (tbh I think Nancy should have been the one pursuing a friendship with Robin instead of the other way around but alas). Tbh I could go on about how Nancy and her relationships and her needs/wants inside those are often misdirected? Misidentified? By fandom, and how that feeds into Robin being reduced to someone who supports Nancy (which, if people complain about Robin considering her bffs feelings about her dating someone, shouldn't they complain about her becoming a glorified cheerleader for Nancy...oh. it's because it's romantic. And some parts of this fandom value that most.) In rnce, which strips Robin of her personality and makes it boring. But this is already long haha (Not to mention it'd be super weird for Nancy to be dating her ex she cheated on and never actually told she cheated on him's best friend. Awkward!!)

I used to not mind rnce that much, tbh. I didn't get it and did think it was weird but the art was cute! And now it's sort of an alarm bells for people being weird about stobin.

Steve and Robin's relationship, like so many platonic relationships but more glaring with just how obsessed with each other they are, is often devalued by the fandom by virtue of the idea that a romantic partner needs/should be someone's number 1. Even though those two want to combine, and are seen taking active roles in trying to get them a romantic relationship, and are really the first person the other felt they could be completely themself around. They're the most important person to the other, regardless of their romantic relationship status.

[gayofthefae]

No bc it's the fact that I WASN'T that invested in Byler during vol 1 actually I got invested in between volumes so really the entire time I wasn't like "ooh another clue!" I started believing they were gonna be endgame - to the extent that I assumed it was the intention to be obvious and I was just behind only to find out that people didn't think it was as obvious as the St*ncy flirting was and was baffled - I literally was passively confident so I wasn't like noting down the proof at all I was super focused on Lucas and Max tbh and Byler was also cute, right?

So what I'm saying is that I realized in 4x02 then had no reaction basically, except empathy, of course, but no surprise, when Mike couldn't tell El he loved her even though they had not yet had issues when I started believing in Byler and I did not bat my eye when Mike talked to and looked at Will like that or all the other moments we've found obvious.

I am one of the many shippers that joined in season 4 after it BECAME obvious and then was like "you guys didn't see it??" I saw it and then analyzed how we got there for fun is what I think many antis don't understand. I didn't need the details to know. It was obvious to me, I just like to nerd out on filmography.

So point being it was always obvious. I never even thought of anything up until after the ily speech as "proof", or rather after volume 1 when I saw that there were apparently doubters I had to defend against, because I didn't NEED proof.

I went "Oooh he can't tell El he loves her I woonder why" in the same way I went "Oooh Max called Lucas' name in the upside down and her memories were a lot of him". Like I could have been wrong about them getting back together, technically, but it's the natural prediction one makes based on context. Byler was the natural prediction I made based on context. Just like L*max getting back together. Just like J*pper getting together. Could I have been wrong? Yes. Was I? No.

I just- I cannot emphasize enough how passively confident I was in Byler before logging on. I am now actively confident and with loads of proof, but honestly I feel like the biggest comfort and best argument to people who aren't invested like that is that once I realized - realized, not "believed" - that Mike would reciprocate Will's feelings, I forgot about it as a concern, relaxed, and just watched the show like anything else. If they got together I wouldn't have been like "told you!" because I didn't think anyone would miss it beyond the point I did any more than they would miss the other canon couple predictions I brought up - some people would, sure, but that many? Jesus.

Really, volume 2 just revealed to me that it was supposed to be more of a twist in season 5. It subverted my expectations of the Duffers' intentions for audience perception, not my expectations for the plot. I thought that everyone misinterpreted what they were obviously telling us but volume 2 revealed to me that I suppose we were purposefully divided. Doesn't change the outcome. The only surprise was the delivery.

Two times I had the thought "why are they doing this?" in the season. When Mike and Will fought in the roller rink and when Mike told El he loved her. Guess which plot became heavily backed up the more new episodes I watched and guess which one contradicted.

[bylerspookie]

Certain lyrics that stand out to me in Mike’s Spotify playlist (Part 3)

When Love Breaks Down

Okay, so, here’s one where I think the album cover definitely was intentional when they chose to put this song on his playlist. The same with “A Real Hero”.

In “A Real Hero”s cover, it looks very similar to the scene where Mike and El hold hands while like skipping away from that field (I hope you know what I'm talking about lol)

And in this cover it’s VERY similar to the scene where Mike lets El ride on the back of his bike??? and there’s 4 people on the cover (probably representing Mike, El, Lucas and Dustin while they were looking for Will)

There’s a guy on a motorcycle and a woman is sitting on the same bike behind him with her arms around him and her face squished against his back. She’s wearing a similar outfit to Eleven in Season 1 (the pink dress with a blonde wig, the woman in this wears a pink jacket and she has blonde hair)

This leads to us thinking that maybe the song is from Mike’s point of view (because it’s his playlist duh) and about El. (some parts might still be aimed at Will though)

And guess what…it’s a break up song!! supriseeee!!

“My love and I, we work well together

But often we're apart”

they were apart for 6 months (as were Mike and Will)

“Absence makes the heart lose weight, yeah,”

Mike “the heart” Wheeler… (you are NOT slick we know what you are)

“Oh my, oh my, have you seen the weather

The sweet september rain

Rain on me like no other

Until I drown, until I drown”

ISTFG THE AMOUNT OF WATER IMAGRY AND MENTIONS OF WATER ON THEIR PLAYLISTS AND THE ACTUAL ST SOUNDTRACK KEEPS ME UP AT NIGHT CAUSE WHAT DOES IT MEAN. HERE IF YOU WANNA SEE MORE ON THAT.

AND THIS ODDLY REMINDS ME OF THE BYLER FIGHT IN S3 IDK WHY

“When love breaks down

The things you do

To stop the truth from hurting you”

“The lies we tell,

They only serve to fool ourselves,”

I’M LOSING MY MIND. “cause what if they don’t like the truth?”

“She'll never crowd me out

Fall be free as old confetti”

and the use of the word free? again, more on that here. (same post as earlier lol)

(if you’re not comfortable with discussions about sex you should skip to the next song <3)

“You join the wrecks

Who leave their hearts for easy sex”

see, I’m not 100% sure about this part but I’m trying to analyse everything okay

firstly, let’s talk about labyrinth and Romeo and Juliet.

Labyrinth is a movie in which the main character is paralleled to Mike SO much that it’s scary. He even has a poster of it in his room. Go to @connect-dots7 to see more on this. In short, connecting to this particular lyric, Sarah, the main character in labyrinth and she has a big scene where she discovers herself and her sexuality and they’re not even slightly subtle about it with the sexual imagry. The exact same sexual imagery is used with Mike (and some other characters).

Romeo and Juliet is a couple that is paralleled to Mike and El in the way that they were doomed at the start. For example, they fell in love at first sight. Shakespeare used this trope as a joke because he didn’t believe in love at first sight and it’s the same with the Duffers. They also mistook lust for love. Also I’m pretty sure Romeo was sort of using Juliet to get over someone that he actually loved but correct me if I’m wrong.

All I’m saying is, I think this lyric is very important, especially with the mention of “heart”. He’s not following his heart, basically.

(I know discussion of sex is very taboo in the byler community and I don’t understand why? Obviously, sexualising them is different, but just discussing the sexual imagry isn’t bad because it IS there and the Duffers aren’t scared of it. @henrysglock explains it here in a better way than I ever could lol. It’s the double standards between heterosexual couples and homosexual couples. )

anyway

Love Is a Stranger

the album cover is a man holding a heart in his palm? do with that as you will

“Love is a stranger

In an open car

To tempt you in

And drive you far away”

VAN SCENE VAN SCENE VAN SCENE VAN SCENE VAN SCENE

“Love is a danger

Of a different kind”

being different…

“And love love love

Is a dangerous drug

You have to receive it

And you still can't

Get enough of the stuff”

The way “White Rabbit” (the first song to play in st) is about Mike because he’s literally the white rabbit in Alice in Wonderland (again, you can read more about it on @connect-dots7 s page) and the song is about drugs????

“Comes in like the flood

And it seems like religion”

MORE MENTIONS IF WATER??

And Mike has too much religious imagery around him it’s insane…

“And you're left like a zombie”

There’s a lot of zombie imagery in st too? Wtf is going on help

“It's guilt edged”

Who’s going to be the one to tell him that he doesn’t have to feel guilty for feeling the way he feels about Will?

“You know it's jealous by nature”

Airport scene I’m looking at you…

“False and unkind”

“And I want you

And I want you

And I want you so

It's an obsession”

Mike it’s okay we’re all obsessed with Will Byers

Beta Girl Lost in Forever

Literally couldn’t find anything about this song lol it’s suspicious...

please tell me if you guys know anything about this song!!

[carigm]

Today Millie had a fan panel in which she answered that her ideal ending would be Mike and El getting married and Will being happy and confessing to Mike (lol) and ofc the Stranger Things fandom kicked up the old Byler vs Mlvn war once again, regardless of the fact she doesn’t write the show. But I want to break down some points here about things I’ve been noticing today, but also for a while and that I think need to be discussed. Keep reading if you want.

I’ve seen a lot of hostility towards Byler and Bylers on Twitter lately, saying we’re delusional and don’t know what we’re talking about. This always seems to be the go to argument even tho it’s all in the narrative. Today it got really bad after Millie’s comments and even people that were merely disagreeing with her opinions got called everything from delusional to misogynistic.

IF the Duffers suddenly decided to ignore everything they’ve carefully crafted and put into their narrative that doesn’t make anyone delusional, it just makes them terrible writers. Who would be doing a great disservice to all three characters involved in the love triangle.

There’s been an insurgence (on Twitter) of so called “Will stans” who seem to be completely fine with the idea of mlvn being endgame because “Will can just get another boyfriend” Not only is this insulting to what the writers have already established for Will’s character but it’s also a defense and endorsement of the worst kind of lazy/bad writing that could graze our screens.

The Duffers CHOSE to tie Will’s character arc to Mike’s and El’s.

How do you expect them to undo that and create a well fleshed out character that’s deserving of Will, in 8 episodes that we know are not just gonna be dedicated to Will’s supposed love interest, because there’s a shit ton of stuff to resolve?

If this was the route the Duffers were going for, they could’ve clearly given Will a love interest last season (like with Robin) or two seasons ago (like with Dustin) And yet somehow, people think it would be totally okay for Will to get the most meaningless romance of all time as the writers ignore the same story they’ve created.

Another point I’ve been seeing a lot from these people is “Mike won’t come out. Let it go. He’s just a very unlikable character” What does that say about the quality of the writing and content you’re willing to consume then? You’re okay with characters being poorly written? And please someone explain to me how Mike’s actions, especially in S4, make any sense unless he likes Will.

The more people try to simplify this story the more plot holes and inconsistencies it creates.

The funny thing is that a lot of these “Will stans” used to be Bylers themselves but are so deathly afraid it won’t be endgame that they’ve started to use the same rhetoric mlvns use every day to justify what would be atrocious writing.

And this next thing might be controversial but I think it needs to be said.

So many people on Twitter have hit those who disagree with Millie’s opinion today with “y’all are misinterpreting Millie’s words” and let me tell you, no one has. She’s been saying the same stuff for forever and quite frankly she’s never had a coherent thought about Will. Which is fine, at the end of the day that’s not the character she plays. However, I haven’t forgotten how last year (at another panel) she was asked about Byler and said it was just a reflection of Finn and Noah’s friendship and that was what people were seeing…

Whatever the fuck that means, I guess.

Again, I’m not taking her answer today too seriously cause truth be told she’s been saying some version of this since she was around twelve, and has even at times said she was joking about it. If a wedding were actually happening she wouldn’t be able to say it cause I’d literally be a spoiler, even if she doesn’t have the scripts yet or doesn’t know I’m sure there’s things that would be off limits for any actor to say at this point.

But this defense squad that formed today begging for us to not misconstrue her words because “she really cares about Will’s character” is laughable.

Her answers regarding the topic of the love triangle have been anything but nuanced. If she doesn’t want to get into it or address it, that’s fine. It’s her choice.

But of course, mlvn stans are gonna take her answers seriously, as well as those who are now “Will stans” who basically ship mlvn too.

And to me there’s a fundamental flaw regarding the ship wars in this fandom, which these people don’t seem to grasp. At this point, it isn’t so much about “which ship is better” but “which outcome isn’t violently homophobic”

That’s it.

I don’t care how much you ship mlvn, this is the undisputed truth here.

But when your lead actors act like it’s not a big deal, it’s no surprise the fandom doesn’t give a shit.

I can only hope the Duffers were smart enough to see reason and were able to write the only outcome that won’t set television back around 10 years or so.

And hopefully one day, when S5 is out, we can get a more in depth and honest conversation with the actors about all of this.

As for me, I’m gonna lay low and not give much of a fuck until we start getting those Reddit leaks, which were very much accurate for last season. I’ll take a peak at those, and depending on what they look like, I’ll stay around or dip completely.

If you read all of this, thank you.