#I don't know if this is anti? I ship a lot of things within reason so yknow

[lobautumny]

So like, the Reddit strike going on right now, yeah? I've been seeing a lot of people comment on how they appreciate the protest and then go on to say that this has the notable downside of them constantly looking up questions and not being able to easily find the answers because all of the easily-findable answers are exclusively on Reddit. I am not sure if most of the people making this observation are within the line of thought of "man, maybe this protest isn't such a good idea after all" or "man, it really sucks that we've let the internet get so consolidated," and I'm really hoping its the latter.

Like, all of this? This right here? Reddit making a shitty, anti-consumer grab for money and control over how people are allowed to access the information on their servers, and the website going dark in protest causing tons of people to not be able to access important information? This is exactly what people mean when they say that it's bad that the internet has shrunk down so much and is mostly comprised of, like, 10 websites. It's a fucking problem that one company making one bad decision and causing their website to crash and burn can jeopardize so much of humanity's cumulative information.

This two-day glimpse into the internet without Reddit is the warning shot. Imagine what will happen if Reddit actually goes down for good for one reason or another one day. Imagine what will happen if/when Discord or Fandom bites the dust, or gets rendered practically-unusable without paying an ever-increasing premium because they're owned by blood-sucking corporate leeches.

Another big thing is Twitter clamping down really hard on your ability to DM people if you don't have Twitter Blue. If this goes through, it'll put a ton of artists and sex workers who rely on Twitter DMs for their business operation into a shitty situation. Now, obviously, it's not gonna be the end of the world for them, but once again, it feels like a warning shot to me. Twitter is a sinking ship, and unless something changes and it starts to course-correct, I worry that it'll go under and all of the creators who rely on it will suddenly be in an extremely precarious situation.

These are the sorts of things that we, as the users of the internet, need to seriously think about as time goes on, and if we don't find an adequate answer sooner, we're going to pay for it later. I still hold that the best solution is to start making and using more individual, niche websites. Things like Twitter, Reddit, Discord, etc. have their place, of course, but I seriously think a lot was lost through the death of things like individual forums and the existence of many different wiki-hosting sites.

We need a concerted effort, not just on the side of larger creators, but on the users themselves, to stop exclusively using these larger websites and support the creation and growth of smaller, more niche websites, and prevent a catastrophe before it actually happens. I simply hope that people with larger platforms than my own pick up on all this and start talking about it and swaying people to act sooner rather than later. I know it's possible to correct the problem of the mysteriously tiny internet before a modern Library of Alexandria moment happens, I just don't know if that correction will actually happen in time.

[laebrumme]

Arlefuri is Interesting, Actually

So I was put onto a twitter thread that's been circulating around the Arlefuri community, and I was feeling to be in a bit of a fighting mood and I found a couple points brought up by the author to be the starting point for some more interesting discussions regarding fandom culture, so I decided it wouldn't hurt to have a "little" discussion around this thread and the points that are brought up.

A quick reminder here that I am not going to link the thread or use the author's name anywhere in here because this is not an attack post. While I am here to defend a ship that I really like and see a lot of value in against a really silly twitter post, I am not here to attack or be aggressive to anyone. This is something we really need to understand and my least favorite part about twitter is how it discourages thoughtful and elaborate response, which is why I'm writing this on my tumblr instead of writing a QRT or something. I want this to be thought out and civil, and there's a very good chance that the thread was written entirely in good faith, however questionable some of the arguments made are.

the amount of arlefuri shippers ive seen that keep going "you just hate it bc its yuri" without actually seeing an explanation why its such a good ship and why they keep defending it like its so canon.

Something that I've noticed as someone who has only been engaging in fandom for about a year and a half now and who got to see Arlefuri pretty much grow from inception to now is that, after a while (especially on platforms such as twitter that are so thoroughly infected by hate and aggression) communities will develop defense mechanisms based on certain patterns of how they've been attacked before. Especially in communities which are highly antagonized for one reason or another, it's easier to have a short list of most-likely reasons someone is attacking their ship than to actually engage with the argument. One of the most reliable and effective canned arguments that one might find in a particularly combative yuri enthusiast's toolbelt is the "you don't like yuri," or, in more extreme examples, the misogyny argument.

I'm not going to get into the MLM vs WLW in fandom discourse here because, quite frankly, I'm not interested and it's completely not related to anything going on here, however the argument is common within WLW ship communities because of the tension that exists between MLM, m/f, and WLW communities, especially because in a huge number of fandoms, MLM far outnumbers the WLW. It's a reliable argument to so many because, more often than not, the anti's argument is coming from a place of anti-yuri sentiment.

In the case of Arlefuri, attacks are so frequent that, for those that decide not to block and move on, it's more efficient to pull out a tool from the toolbelt instead of engaging with each and every anti post. Arlefuri shippers are, to put it bluntly, sick and tired of it and just kinda want to do their own thing.

yes, this sounds very yuriphobic as smn who ships renheng but i do ship yuri ships like acheswan, bronseele, clorivia, eimiko, and many more. not that im against rarepairs, but arlefuri is hardly a rarepair anymore, and the way the shippers are defending it, makes it feel like its as implied as the ships i mentioned above

I mean, doesn't everyone do this? Something else I've noticed is that every single HYV ship that has even the smallest basis in the canon has people that consistently go on about how, because of certain observations regarding design/symbolism/voice lines, the ship is canon. It's important to remember, though, that lot of it is playful banter or reactions borne of excitement, and very rarely are people actually insisting that Arlefuri is canon or even implied to be canon. Because with the exception of HI3 bronseele, there isn't a single HYV ship (that I know of) that is downright confirmed. And yes, that even includes Acheswan.

I think the observation being made here is a result of two things: Arlefuri as a ship just getting bigger, and how fed-up Arlefuri shippers are of being antagonized. The first point is very obvious: the more people there are out there to talk about a ship, the more confident and loud those discussions are going to become. The second one though is more interesting because I think, as a community gets antagonized more and more, a very natural response to people talking poorly about a thing you like is to engage with it even more. A lot of people, instead of taking the fight back to those that are attacking the ship, instead back away from the argument and, as if almost spitefully, engage with the ship even more. Hell, I've even seen some of my fellow arlefuri shippers talk about how this discourse is going to make them ship arlefuri even harder. It's just a natural response almost.

Also I genuinely don't understand what rarepairs have to do with the discussion at hand. It's brought up again later in the thread, and even there I'm not sure what point it's trying to get across. There's a though process there, but whatever it is it isn't communicated in the thread, which is no fault of the thread author since twitter is stupidly restrictive as a platform for arguments and expressing thoughts (that's why I'm writing this on tumblr).

literally what is the 'flavor' and 'dynamic' in arlefuri other than 'happy and grumpy' and 'enemies to lovers'??? they barely have any backstory together other than "girl one traumatizes girl two and gives her cake as an apology because it doesnt benefit her to be on bad terms with girl two". there is nothing appealing about their relationship, and honestly i feel like furina should just be her own person without that romantic nonsense.

Well I'm glad you asked!

Arlefuri is a ship that has a lot of layers and a lot of different interpretations, and I think the only way to get a proper understanding of why so many find the ship appealing is to go out onto the Arlefuri tag on ao3 and read some of more popular fics that are out there. However, I'm going to offer my personal understanding of the ship and why I enjoy it so much.

In short, the allure of Arlefuri to me lies in a simple concept: safety.

I think a lot of the misunderstanding around Arlefuri and why Arlefuri gets accused of being proship so often lies in a misunderstanding of Furina's story and what Arlecchino represents in said story. Namely, Arle wasn't the only person that made Furina feel unsafe during the events of the archon quest. Literally everyone that was involved in that quest was doing practically the exact same thing that Arlecchino did: cornering her into a position which would force her to reveal her identity as "false" archon. So coming out of the archon quest in Fontaine, Furina has not a single soul she can trust in Fontaine anymore because of how thoroughly traumatized she was in those last few days of her run as archon. Every single person involved in discovering the truth behind the Oratrice betrayed Furina in every sense of the word.

Obviously, the game has to make Furina warm up to the traveler for marketing sake (which is one of the only gripes I have about Furina's story), but aside from that, she still has a distaste for people outside. Evidence of this can be seen with how she talks in two distinct vocal modes which I'll get into here more in a bit.

This is all to say that, one, Furina is starting from scratch relationship-wise and can trust nobody, and two, that Arlecchino is no more of an antagonist than anyone else. The only difference is that Arlecchino was more forward with it, and Furina had built her up in her head as the big bad that would finally out the entire operation (that's where Furina's fear of Arlecchino comes from).

Where this all gets interesting is when you consider Arlecchino as pretty much a symbol for all that betrayal that Furina faced. Arlecchino, just like the traveler and crew, cornered her in a position by complete surprise that would, with one more move, force her to either prove herself as archon in one way or another, before they discovered that there's more to the story and moving their attention elsewhere. When you consider Arlecchino as a symbol of that, then what a relationship w/ Arlecchino represents is Furina learning how to trust and feel safe in the presence of other people.

This is a dynamic I explore in my own fic, "What Do You Want?" and is something that is explored to even more depth in the Arlefuri bible, "A Fatui Harbinger in Lady Furina's Court." Hell, even the biggest chapter of my own fic which is the catalyst for the relationship that is explored for the rest of the fic is literally called "Safety." The entire point of the ship is for Furina to find safety in someone and, through Arlecchino, to learn for the first time in her 500 years of life how to trust and love people.

I could continue on about why I enjoy about Arlefuri all day, if you can't tell, and I could start discussing the nuances of their grumpy/happy dynamic and all the gender stuff and various other examples of incredible writing and interpretations of the ship, but I think you get the idea. There's depth here. You just have to look for it.

arlefuri shippers+ships are fine IF you acknowledge that your ship is barely even canon (maybe until more infois released) and that there is no reason to be defending them so hard over very very very little crumbs, when most of those crumbs are actually headcanons that you made up yourself.

Again, nobody is earnestly going out there and defending the canonicity of Arlefuri. We're defending something completely different which I'll discuss in the next section. But even then, why should we? Why is a ship okay only if we acknowledge the lack of canonicity in a ship? We all are taking part in a culture that was literally borne of taking one canon or another and doing really silly things w/ it. That's why our fandom ancestors borrowed the term "canon" from religious studies and applied it to fandom: they needed a way to differentiate the stuff that was officially a part of the media and what was being written by fans.

We're all here to have fun. We're playing with dolls and making them kiss. There is absolutely no harm in us doing our own thing and engaging in a ship just as, say, a renheng shipper would. Just because a ship isn't canon doesn't mean that the shippers have to wear big signs on their backs that say "our ship is not canon and we are aware of that." This point feels strangely targeted in that way.

im not an arlefuri hater, infact, i was indifferent to it because i knew many people would ship it eventually, but seeing the ship grow more and more and the shippers attacking nonshippers with NO explanation on why they are defending such a copium ship is starting to make me hate it.

Okay, here's where the main discussion point is, and this right here is why I'm writing this whole essay/response thing.

This is a strawman.

This is not happening.

Every single Arlefuri shipper I've personally talked to could not care less if you don't like Arlefuri. Not every ship is for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with that. But there's a very big difference between not liking a ship and antagonizing a ship.

One of the things I absolutely hate about fandom is how much power lies in the accusation of being "proship." If someone is able to accuse someone of being proship and that accusation sticks, whether it's true or not, that person is screwed. And the same thing goes for ships. If a ship is successfully labeled as "proship" then that means that everyone that might publicly engage with that ship is going to also be labeled as proship, and that means they're going to be antagonized, even if there is nothing wrong with the ship itself.

Because people misunderstand a single cutscene in the game, people tend to label Arlefuri as, at best, toxic, and at worst, proship. And after a while, this gets tiring, especially for a community that is relatively small.

As stated before, Arlefuri shippers are so tired of being attacked and accused of various things, and because of that, engaging with people that attack the thing that we like in a respectful way becomes really really hard, and at some point, these defense attempts have started to lean more and more aggressive.

This is where I think that perception of Arlefuri shippers being so militant come from: they're defending a ship that they like in a rather aggressive and fed-up way which is very easy to interpret as attacking people for just having opinions.

Like I said before, there's a big difference between not liking a ship and antagonizing a ship.

For some reason, so many people antagonize Arlefuri. And because of how much it happens, responses have become, more often than not, either canned as discussed before, or angry.

i am lgbtqia+, i support and love love lgbtqia+ ships (including hetero ships bht thats for another conversation) but i really dont see why arlefuri is such a popular ship.

I agree, that is a separate conversation, but I find it really odd that the author found it important to spend valuable characters pointing this out.

like i said before, rarepairs are fine and fun, go for it. but if youre going to mindlessly attack people without explaining your reason, you're going to be just like most neuvifuri shippers who like to see 'nonchalant tall person' have sex with 'smaller, more childish (mentally) and petite person'. its not the ship you like, maybe its just the image, the fantasy, the thought. or you're just projecting.

There is a lot to unpack with this last point.

First of all, setting aside accusing arlefuri shippers of attacking again which we've talked about, this is straight up infantilizing Furina. Again, I'm assuming this thread was written in good faith, but if it wasn't, that's an insidious thing to throw into the thread to make that implication. As much as I'm not a fan of nvfr shippers, even they don't deserve that.

Furina is bubbly and energetic, silly and a bit out there, but she is not childish. If you pay attention to any of the quests she's in post Masquerade of the Guilty, you'll notice that (at least in the English dub although I'm assuming it carries to other dubs as well) Furina has two vocal modes with which she speaks: one for when she's in public situations with people she isn't super familiar or trusting with, and one for when she's talking one-on-one with the traveler or otherwise in situations where she feels safe. That latter vocal mode is what almost all of her voice lines in the character menu are spoken in, and is what you can consider her true self (her Ousia version of herself) which is much more thoughtful, calm, and straightforward. When she is acting as her true self, she is incredibly mature and her 500 years of life and stress really start to show.

What I'm assuming the author is thinking of when they call Furina mentally childish is how she acts when she's around various people. This is an act. She still pretends to be someone she's not when she's out and about, and that version of herself (her Pneuma aligned self) is one that is designed to be as appealing as possible: energetic, silly, and slightly arrogant. Once again, it's a character, or if you're more partial to Autistic/neurodivergent Furina headcanons, it's her masking.

Another really weird implication that comes out of this last point (at least to me) is that any and all Arlefuri content is just smut. That's obviously not true--just take my corpus of Arlefuri work as three examples out of however many. And I think it's not fair to judge the morality of most ships purely on the smut. Yes, sex can be a very useful tool for exploring the dynamics of characters, and that is used quite often in Arlefuri (same as literally every other ship known to fandom), but, w/r/t Arlefuri specifically, so much more interesting discussions exist outside of the bedroom, and some of the most seminal and impressive Arlefuri works are those that do not focus around sex. "A Fatui Harbinger in Lady Furina's Court" by DarlingMistaken, yes, is rated Explicit, but only because of one or two chapters. The entirety of the fic is an exploration of Furina's PTSD and the safety dynamic I talked about earlier. Eris's "All Bark No Bite" is completely Arlefuri sex free for the first 16 chapters and has a lot of interesting discussions of Furina's loneliness leading up to the smutty chapters. "Embers" by ChonkCatto is a slow burn romance which dives even deeper to the psychological trauma both Arlecchino and Furina have faced, as well as an exploration of Furina discovering her sexuality. And while I'm not a huge fan of tooting my own horn like this, I'm personally really proud of the discussions I have about power, trust, agency, and how love needn't be loud and passionate in my sister arlefuri fics, "What Do You Want?" and "There Must Be Something Here".

And I also want to point out that literally every ship any of us likes is purely because of the image, fantasy, and thought. That's the point of fandom. I know the author is particularly talking about the sexual side of things, but even then, that's why we do what we do. We like the idea of our favorite characters smooching, and so we make them smooch. Sometimes it's for reasons that takes an essay 3k words and counting to explain, and sometimes it's because "I find both of them hot." There's nothing wrong with that, and there never has been. If you want to read more about my thoughts on this topic specifically, you can read my previous post on here, "A Short Discussion on Fandom Culture"

Finally, I want to leave y'all with a reminder that discourse like this a fire that only you can fuel. Twitter as a platform is designed to both encourage saying things that will bait a reaction and to encourage responding to said bait in as reactionary of a way as possible. And because of the character restraints built into the app, that makes communicating your full thoughts incredibly difficult, and starts forcing people to rely on gotcha's and mantras instead of properly discussing things. And when people start echoing the same things over and over, distain in those spouting those mantras is developed in people, no matter the intention. So just block and move on. Take a page out of the fuqing shippers' book and just move on, because unless we all engage in long discussions over thousands of words, nobody is going to listen to each other because twitter is designed for people to not listen to each other.

This is a war that nobody is going to win, and it's so much better to pack up your things and return home from the front lines. It's so much better if you let people like what they like and not like what they don't like and say what they will say. We're all just a bunch of random ass nobodies beefing about fictional characters.

Just block and move on. It's so much better.

Trust me.

[redbayly]

Had to do another rambling because some Antis got their panties in a twist.

After posting my very clearly tagged Zutara headcanons last night, I saw a post in the Zutara tag this morning where some Antis were ranting about their usual nonsense.

I would've just blocked and moved on, but something caught my attention about the post. I realized what they were talking about was very likely a reference to my post from last night.

I don't remember all the details (I did end up blocking them), but the crux of their complaint was that Zutara shippers steal Kataang dynamics or something. Specifically, they were calling out a recent post about Katara and Zuko traveling around helping people (which I talked a lot about in my post, so that's why I think it was me they were calling out) and that that is exclusively a Kataang thing that I stole and applied to Zutara. Also, someone in the comments had added that, if Zuko ever did go around helping people it would only be with Mai.

There was also a lot of whining about seeing Zutara stuff when they were looking for Kataang. As if I hadn't clearly tagged my post as Zutara and even used the word within the first few sentences to let the reader know what the post was about.

(For pity's sake, moderate your tags or skip over something with a tag you don't like! It's not difficult!).

But back to the main argument that Zuko and Katara wouldn't travel around helping people together and that that is exclusive to Kataang.

That is absolute bullshit.

First off, it was a headcanon of mine and I can headcanon what I damn well please (as can everybody else).

Secondly, what even is that argument they were making? Did they completely ignore the fact that both Zuko and Katara are good-hearted, helpful people who are trying to make the world a better place? We see numerous instances in canon of them helping others for the sole reason that it's just their nature to do so. In fact, if anything, they are more likely to seek out people to help out of pure altruism than Aang, who usually just sort of stumbles across people in trouble and helps because it's his job as Avatar.

(I'm not insulting Aang. I'm just saying that he's more likely to goof off and avoid getting involved in something if he thinks it's not serious enough, whereas Katara and Zuko are more likely to leap at opportunities to be helpful).

A third reason this is ridiculous is that Aang doesn't own a monopoly on doing good or helping the world. Zuko was already planning to make changes to heal the damage the Fire Nation caused. He's an "idealist with a pure heart and unquestionable honor." Do the Antis really think he would sit around on his ass while there are orphans to feed and towns to rebuild and justice to be restored? Also, why would Katara not be out there doing her all to help the world regardless of whether Aang is involved or not? Katara "never turns her back on people who need [her]" so I doubt she'd let anyone decide for her whether she travels around to fix people's problems.

I could go on and on about why this Anti-Zutara argument was stupid, but I've addressed the main points.

So, I'll say this one last time. If you dislike Zutara, read the damn tags and avoid the post you don't want to see. Don't whine about it and make up nonsensical arguments for your faux outrage. Leave Zutara shippers alone and let us have our headcanons.

You already got your ship in Bryke's canon. Just let us enjoy our headcanons in peace.

[darklinaforever]

Anti-incest shippers make me laugh trying to imply our real life morality and going so far as to say that we have an incest fetish.

WTF ?

Incest is once again a super common trope in fiction that we can appreciate for various reasons linked to the narration and the issues it poses.

I like this trope, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ship every incest couple that comes my way.

For example, even if I appreciate their inclusion in the story for various reasons, I still don't ship Thomas & Lucille from Crimson Peak (even if the chemistry between the actors is great). I ship Thomas with Edith, the heroine. I don't ship Jaime & Cersei either. I ship Jaime with Brienne. Or more recently, in the film Flowers in the Attic : The origin, I do not ship the character of Corinne with Malcom, even if instead I ship her with her uncle and half-brother Christopher (🤭)... To go to Greek mythology, I certainly ship Hades & Persephone, uncle and niece incest, but I do not ship Hera & Zeus, brother and sister incest, for example.

Why don't I necessarily ship these relationships ?

A lot of factors come into play. Depending on whether a healthier and more convincing relationship is offered next door or not, for example.

I mean, clearly Thomas with Lucille, Jaime with Cersei, Corinne with Malcom, it reaches levels of toxicity leading to the probable destruction of the characters at a given moment, even the most sympathetic of the two, who we tend to like more and generally support and wish him out of this horrible relationship.

And do I need to talk about what a dysfunctional and toxic relationship Hera & Zeus is ? I do not believe. Although I know many actually like it, and it's to their credit if that's the case.

So when I'm accused of having an incest fetish and only liking a relationship if it has that aspect, that's stupid.

We ship for the chemistry, the history between the characters, what they bring to each other or not, the way they are represented within the relationship as horrible or not so horrible, etc.

As in the end... any type of ship.

It's not for nothing that we ship brothers and sisters or other members of the same family in fiction even when there is nothing incestuous between them. Usually, it's as simple as enjoying the chemistry between two actors. Nothing to do with a fetish either, since I don't ship all the fictional non-incestuous brothers and sisters that exist.

So accusing me of that is once again stupid.

It's like when I'm accused of shipping only when it's extremely problematic (especially for the woman whereas.. wtf ? I also ship when women are the bad guys, or the couples are lgbtq+ these people are stupid), which is ridiculous.

I can appreciate a ship with toxic aspects, but I will inevitably reach my limit at some point (and sometimes I'll just ship chips that are healthy). And even if I ship something truly objectively horrible in the story as this post shows :

That doesn't mean I expect the characters to get together, not at all.

I just generally appreciate the chemistry between the actors, more than the story of the characters itself which would lead me to ship which is certainly not the case when you see the horrible things that happen there.

At least, that's in my case, everyone has their own tolerance for toxic relationships depicted in fiction.

Saying that we have a fetish about incest or toxic relationships because we appreciate fictional tropes or alchemy between actors is just an excuse made by the antis so that they can justify their hateful attacks behind their screen.

Basically giving yourself a good moralizing role.

[epickiya722]

At this point, he's trying to change the narrative to shift it to his favor which it just disrespectful to Horikoshi and his team.

Ain't it funny that out of all the lines, it's just that one line? The very last line? Yet, all the other lines seem to still keep their meanings. Hm...

Like, every time there's a line that shows just how far Bakugou and his relationship with Midoriya has developed, the "official" translation is a total different line with a totally different meaning.

He would not say "OFA couldn't keep you on the ground...", he would not start that line like that because he has grown. Saying that just makes him sound like he's kinda boasting about his own quirk and downplaying OFA aka Midoriya’s quirk.

Now him saying "we'll finish the job" sounds less... bad given that bit could be interpret ss him saying "him and Midoriya". But... it also makes no sense because the fan translation also alludes to the fact that he and Midoriya could win together. Him saying that he'll take up what Midoriya can't is him saying "I got his back, we got this together, they're a duo". The previous chapters and the second movie show as such.

So why change the line though? Hm? So couldn't there be a line that was similar to the fan translation instead of that whole line change?

See the problem! The fan translation worked out a way better translation with Bakugou saying he'll take up what Midoriya can't because it's a callback to his apology, one of his biggest moments within his character development. Also, Horikoshi often makes callbacks.

And that said callback refers to Bakugou's growth. He still will be there so they can win together.

I know some people will be like "here's the BkDks complaining again".

Forget it being about shipping! The "official" translation just didn't do Bakugou as a character justice here. Yes, his development does involve Midoriya. But even without shipping goggles, one could see how that last line isn't fair to Bakugou's development.

Actually, you know what?

The thing I find funny about this is antis will see everyone's reactions to this and say "BkDks are making it about shipping" even though they're just as bad, even worse.

This is an example.

Let's be honest. The reason why that translation changed is probably because a certain translator feels some kind of way towards Bakugou and Midoriya. Probably why we gets "mistakes" like this constantly.

If I was translating the manga and I didn't care about BkDk, I still wouldn't be mistranslating for the simple fact I wouldn't want to change the narrative that Horikoshi wants to give. It's his story, after all. I damn sure don't want anyone doing that to me.

Especially over some damn ship they want to be salty about.

Which a lot of people who hate on BkDk do. They like to shift the story into what they want just for a chance to shit on a ship and its shippers.

Now, how can anyone be that pressed, how can anyone be so in their feelings that they would change the narrative of a story that is not even theirs by even translating wrong, I do not know!

[gentlebeardsbarngrill]

PoC and queer people, and queers of color are not out here being mad at everyone for no reason. Did you guys think it was just a group of cishet white men who probably don’t even watch the show? We have begged all these years for aid, but it’s dystopian-like to see you guys come together and pay over $21 thousand for a billboard within a few hours. The “charities” aren’t listed, and even then seeing fans tell the organizers use all the money for advertisements is horrifying to say the least. Even more so adding on the creator is a Zionist and antiBlack, which again White people arent gonna give a shit about as they continue to show so in all fandoms. It’s the people affected that calls this guy out, and y’all don’t listen. Do what you want, but stop diminishing our voices as the “angry crowd” have some damn compassion

CW: Racism, Anti-Semitism, Zionism, This is a save space ship so please do not read if you don't have the spoons because there's heavy shit in here today. ------ Hi friend! First of all, I want to say thank you so much for reaching out and giving me some more information! Personally, I don't think what you're being mad about is "for no reason". For me, that's not where the issue lies, and perhaps you could provide me with some further insight. So far, the only kinds of responses to this campaign that I've encountered that are negative have been "Taika is a Zionist", and I have not encountered that "queers of color " we're having a problem. Now, that could be that I just haven't seen them and now that my reach is out a little further it's coming up-- which is great, I want to have a conversation about it. I am newer to the fandom so it's possible I just haven't been around for a lot of this in the past, I admit that. I would be more than happy to hear more about what it is that "Queers of Color" have a problem with regarding the show.

------

In regards to "Even more so adding on the creator (I'm assuming you're referring to Taika here as opposed to David Jenkins?) is a Zionist and antiBlack, which again White people arent gonna give a shit about as they continue to show so in all fandoms."

So, I can see why you feel that way. I've heard a lot from many people of color who feel as if they aren't being considered in a lot of fandoms (not specifically this one but general scifi , fantasy, etc). I am white, so I know that no matter what my background is culturally, I cannot understand the full extent of what our friends of color go through so I try to amplify the voices of those people when they bring information to the table. I do think this fandom cares, and would love to hear more if you're willing to provide it.

My First Question is, where is the narrative coming from that Taika is AntiBlack? He's of Te Whānau-ā-Apanui, an indigenous person, with jewish heritage. I did some googling (yes I realise that's not the most efficient or accurate tool, but I did try to find independant sources). The thing that sticks out most to me is regarding the 2020 following the death of George Floyd. Here is one of the articles I referenced:

Taika's tweet was "Watch the whole thing. Eloquent. Clear. Everyone is angry but there is a way to direct that anger." in response to Killer Mike's message asking “not burn your own house down” and instead “fortify your own house.” and to "Plot, plan, strategize, and organize" as he said in the video.

Now, I see a lot of reactions from people of color specifically stating "don't police my anger" and that is a 100% valid take. No one should be telling you how to channel your anger when as a society you are being murdered and you have to fight back to survive. I do think that everyone still has a lot to learn.

I am going to give you a little background on myself (not to toot my own horn, but to provide a little perspective on how much we are still learning). I am whiteyest white person there is, like I go outside and my skin practically lights on fire from my irish/eastern european ancestry, but I also have a black biological grandmother from Guayana who had ancestry back to many years before when slaves were brought over during the Atlantic Slave Trade. So growing up, even though I was white, I thought I had it all figured out on racism because my grandma was black. The narratives taught in US schools were that "racism was in the past" because schools had been white washed, and I grew up in Northern Virginia, where it was supposed to be "multicultural center of the country" since we were so close to DC. Over time, I started finding out from friends of color and indigenous friends that they were still experiencing racism towards them. I never knew, because I wouldn't have, it wasn't faced towards me. And I knew some-- but I didn't know enough even then 15 years ago. Roll around to 2010-12ish, several things occurred that made "black face" become more prominent and I had more discussions with my friends about what kind of racism they dealt with in their day to day lives. I used to color my arms when I was a kid with a brown marker because I wanted to look like my grandma. I found out at the ripe old age of 24 that was basically black face for a lot of people and that it wasn't ok.

2020 came, and George Floyd, and Brianna Taylor, Stephan Clark, Botham Jean, Freddie Gray and so many others were murdered by police and white supremacist shitwads, and suddenly, not just me but so many more white people started to get the slightest inkling of just HOW BAD it really was for black people in this country. That was the year honestly I started to question the systems of our government, and all the racial inequalities that I THOUGHT I had understood before.

Our government, our society culturally has tried its best to sweep racial inequality under the rug, and pretend like "racism is gone" when we still have systems built on racism, that benefit from racist systems of the past. (This is why it's so important that we keep fighting against people who want to white wash history books in a lot of the southern states like FL and TX) Is that an excuse? Of course not. But I believe in change whole-heartedly, and while I am still ashamed of the vast ignorance I had for so many years, and worry about the ignorance I still don't know I'm ignorant of, I do try to be better. I am trying to take that shame and continue to learn and chip away at my ignorance not only through others but on my own. I am not asking for you to pity, or to forgive me or any other white person for that kind of ignorance, what I'm doing here is trying to make a safe space to share and so you can see that people can actively change. Is it enough? Probably not, but it's a start.

-- Now, All that to say, regarding Taika... that tweet from 2020, as I said, quite a lot of people (of all colors) had their eyes opened that year to some pretty systemic racist horrors, and if that is the tweet that sparked the idea that Taika is "Anti-Black" I think, while you don't have to forgive him, it would be something to consider that quite a lot of people were well intending during that time but did not fully comprehend exactly how bad it was. I would however, if you'd be willing to chat with me in DMs about it, or send another ask, like to hear more if there was more evidence of it somewhere I didn't see.

-------- In regards to Taika being a Zionist... which I have heard from others quoting the letter he signed asking for the release of hostages in Gaza. I'm including a link to a copy of the letter just so people can read it, I realize the hollywood reporter isn't an amazing source, but it has the letter included, so thats why. Once again, when that letter came out back in October, quite a lot of people didn't actually know what was going on in Gaza.

We all heard brief things in our day to day news feed, but just like how everything is on the internet right now, information isn't "complete" it's broken up in fragments and it takes a really long time to compile them. There is misinformation galore, and it's incredibly easy to not hear the entire story. I know in October, I was dealing with health issues and I was completely just not paying attention what was going on (we all have our lives and as much as I'd like to say we can all be omniscient and fully present for all things it's truly not a reasonable expectation of any human being nor should it be, the world is a very large place, and we should help where we can but there's a limitation on human ability).

In my opinion, as someone who has tried a lot of their life to "do the right thing" and made a lot of mistakes and tried to learn from them, that letter, and Taika signing it seemed like a "Good intentions" situation again, hoping that he could help in someway. Am I making excuses for him? No, I'm expressing my perspective. I'm not here to change your opinion on him, I'm here to express why fans are still fighting for this show. Do you have other resources regarding his support of zionism?

What concerns me though as a whole, is people throwing 'Zionist' around very liberally these days. I am not an expert on the situation and I don't claim to be. However, growing up in DC when 9/11 happened, I can tell you that labels like that can get dangerous very VERY quickly. Muslim families I grew up with had their windows shattered with bricks on the night of 9/11 (and labeled terrorists) despite being pillars in the community and never having hurt a soul.

Right now, Zionist is a word that is being used to label someone in a very intense way, and it invokes dangerous responses in people. I do believe we really need to make sure we are labeling these situations properly because those kinds of labels CAN and WILL get out of hand very quickly and get people hurt.

I'm going to link to this article from the Anne Frank house to define Zionism. I am also going to list this article from the American Jewish Committee regarding racism and anti-semitism. Once again I'm not an expert on the situation going on in Gaza, and I'm happy to hear more regarding it.

-----------

In regards to your comments on the charities: There are some charities listed in a few places, they just aren't all part of the advertising campaign one:

The main one for Rainbow Youth is here: The Renew As a Crew Fundraiser (not the advertising one) https://ry-community.raisely.com/renewasacrew/ **The Advertising Campaign / Charities**

You mentioned in your ask "even then seeing fans tell the organisers use all the money for advertisements is horrifying to say the least".

I can understand why that would be horrifying to someone who is feeling raw the way that you are. It's completely valid. I would like to offer up the perspective that some people are very invested in this show for their own reasons (some people have never felt represented in major networks) and they too are allowed to feel excited and say things that might be in their own best interest. We are all allowed those opinions, and I think the more we shame people for wanting something, the less discussion we're going to be able to have. That said, I think the @renewasacrew leadership team made a good decision to stick to their original $10K for advertising, and the rest going to charity because of the confusion. It does the most good, and still allows the original intent -- to show the world how much Our Flag Means Death means to many people.

In regards to which charities they are going to -- I had seen somewhere that they were going to a charity Samba and Vico Ortiz had chosen but I asked the leadership team on twitter and this is what they responded with (which I think is fair, they're trying to take their time to make a good decision with the help of everyone involved).

-------------------

I would also like to point out however, that we do have the ability to care about more than one thing at once. One thing that makes life worth living is the little things that make us smile. I have a lot of stuff at home that makes life rough, and my escape is this gay pirate show, and this beautiful, compassionate community that supports it.

We are allowed to have things that we love as well as the things we fight for. I do a lot of my activism on facebook and in person, I don't bring it to tumblr much because this is the safe space for a lot of people to dream and have dreams. It is important for everyone's mental health to step away from the realities of life sometimes (which I know some people like those in Gaza or Ukraine can't do) or else we all burn out and can't help anymore.

I hope this helps a bit in showing you we do care about queers of color, and we do want to know more how we can help, and we are willing to listen. There's a lot of compassion in this community, and I think a lot of people would be willing to talk about it if things are done in a safe space. I do apologize that you feel like we've "diminished" your voices, that was not the intention. If you would like to use that voice to provide more examples and your views I'm happy to listen. I do think we need to allow people to enjoy things too though, because life's not worth living otherwise. Nothing is perfect, but we continue to try and improve.

I would also like to recommend that if the OFMD fandom renewal campaign is bothering folks, please feel free to block us. We don't want to make anyone feel bad, but we also want to express ourselves in a healthy manner. Much love your way Anon.

[rwbyrg]

Am I alone in feeling mostly relieved our side of the FNDM is as small as it is? Of course, I'm not opposed to any new fresh meat coming in to join the fun, but at the same time, I think the scale of the RG corner kinda means we have less weirdos, and more genuinely talented and passionate people carrying on creativity for the other half to enjoy. Something something limitations breed creativity.

While I don't think you're alone in feeling how you do, I do not feel the same way... because I, myself, am a weirdo. Sorry. 😳 nah but fr, i know this ask is probably harmless and well intended, but I'm not keen on this way of thinking.

There are a lot more rg supporters than it seems. Most of them just don't engage with it publicly because of how unsafe the fandom landscape is these days; and that makes me sad. i can't count the number of people that said me or others being vocal about the ship finally made them feel comfortable enough to post about it. can't count how many more left the community because the harassment and lack of support just became too much to handle.

which is also part of the reason why I'm not keen on separating people into a "weird vs. normal" or "us vs. them" mindset.

Weirdness, talent, and passion, are not mutually exclusive of each other. Plenty of very skilled creatives have strange interests, make weird art, write inappropriate stories, or have been harmful to others. A person's artistic skill or creativity is not an indicator of their integrity, morality, or actions behind closed doors. That train of thinking is a very slippery slope, and I'm speaking from experience here when i say it can hurt you and people within your community if you're not careful.

I'm a weirdo to people who don't engage with fandom for having a blog dedicated to two fictional characters. I'm a weirdo to antis because those characters happen to be rg (which makes us weirdos-in-arms, dear anon 😘). I'm a weirdo to other rg shippers for not shipping it the same way they do. I'm close friends with a few creatives here, and on bad terms with a few others. Most of them are weirdos in one way or another. Some are kindhearted, earnest, and lovely individuals that have been cancelled, called out, and harassed for the most vanilla, harmless, and ordinary things you can imagine. Others, despite their talent, are assholes whom you could not pay me to be in the same "room" with again. And those jerks have and do say the same things of me in their own spaces.

If anything, I think these sorts of mentalities are the reason there are so few of us here in this little garden. We're treated like the blacksheep of the FNDM at large. We're unwelcome, ostracized, and chased out of most general spaces even when we aren't doing anything wrong. And because of that, these narratives and pressures around being "normal" or "one of the good ones" seeps into our spaces and only divides us all further.

Weirdness is subjective, people all have their own quirks, and being in fandom wasn't even considered "normal" until very recently. So, as far as I'm concerned, so long as you're not hurting anyone, we're all weird here.

[stupendousfoxthing]

I want to share a post making the rounds that made a lot of great points, but op dismisses the idea of any romantic relationships existing between any two members of the group in the replies. I will never be down with the "no ships are real" crowd because I can't think of a single valid (non-homophobic) reason to think a romance between two men is impossible. A romantic relationship between two people who met when they were young, worked and lived together for the better part of a decade, and enjoyed each other's company so much that when given the opportunity to build lives separate from that work STILL chose each other makes more sense than a lot of other things people will accept as perfectly reasonable (if it's a man and a woman of course). But the homophobia is just one layer to their dismissal, and the post hit on several others. There are so many layers to the shitty way this fandom treats Taekook and Taekookers. The video I shared earlier from an anon tells it like it is. Taekookers are not delusional to believe it's possible there is something there. No matter what antis would like you to believe, they are not literally brothers. Saying they are brothers is literally delusional (believing something is true when there is evidence to the contrary). There is a pattern of suspicious behavior going back years and only intensifying during solo era. I've talked about this before, but during the frenzy over the Dream premiere last year I saw something I thought was funny. I saw two people on Twitter talking about it, talking about Taekook fondly, and saying they felt like it had been a million years since they had seen them together. I realized then that they had no idea about all of the things that had happened with Taekook in the months prior to that. I started to wonder if we get called delusional just because people really do only pay attention to what is laid out in front of them, mostly in official content. Like...yeah, we probably do look delusional if you don't know about 95% of the things that have happened. This would tie back into how the fandom sees Tae as well, and why he is treated like an outsider. If you've been in the fandom for a while, you know how people who go against the company narrative in any way are treated. Tae does go against that narrative. He has talked about the more negative aspects of their position openly more than any other member. Why was he allowed to hint that things aren't all rosy between him and the company in the recent documentary? Look at how the fandom treats those who go against the company, and you will know. Taekook as a ship has a unique ability to create a perfect storm of animosity in this particular fandom that literally has training materials and guidelines written up for "baby ARMY". Layers. Homophobia. Company loyalty over everything. The spoon-fed narratives. The "outsider" and the "privileged" one dating? But they're awkward brothers... Taekookers get treated like monsters, no other group even comes close and it isn't because we're "shippers". I see evidence of that everyday. Other ships/shippers within the group have a free pass to do whatever they want. The fandom loves Namkook, for instance. You can openly romanticize/sexualize them and the fandom eats it up. Tons of people showed their ass with Tae/IU as well. It's not shipping that bothers them. It's Taekook. Taekook challenges what they've been led to believe. Taekookers shine a light on it and celebrate it. That's what pisses people off, and I do believe that when they actually look at Taekook they see it too. We bring something that makes them uncomfortable to their attention, something they'd rather not see or acknowledge. When a Taekook "moment" happens and we haven't even said anything yet but people are already bitching about the fact they can't enjoy it because they know Taekookers will be happy and celebrating? It's not us. It's Taekook as a pair that bothers them.

[phoenixandtheproshippers]

Hello, I'm a new Tumblr user and I've only recently found out about the whole proship and antis thing. I just wanted to ask a few questions, since a lot of the stuff about proshipping I've seen is from antis.

How would YOU define proshipping (I've seen a lot of definitions floating around, so I just want to be certain)

Are there any types of ships that even you, a proshipper, find too much (eg. pedophillia)

Do people you know in real life know about your tumblr accounts and status as a proshipper? If not, is it because you believe they'd be unsupportive?

Other than just freedom to ship characters that you'd like, are there any significant reasons you have such a strong proship stance?

I'm sorry if any of these questions were too personal or phrased impolitely. I genuinely do want to learn more about proshipping and I don't intend any disrespect or rudeness that might come across.

1. Ship and let ship, don't harass people over fictional characters, that sort of thing.

2. No. There's stuff I don't read, because even proshippers can have squicks (scat is my main one, I've read most of the traditional darkship stuff), but I believe that it should all be allowed to exist in fiction.

3. Irls don't know about these accounts or my proship stance. Yes, I keep it hidden due to their likely status as antis. We're going to end up drifting apart within the next couple of years though, so I don't worry about it too much.

4. I like 'problematic' ships, and I'm not a fan of hypocrisy, death threats, harassment or censorship. That sums it up fairly effectively.

Hope to see you with us in the proship community! Have a great day/night!

[saccharinemeat]

hi! VERY strong anti here. trying to be civil. just genuinely asking, why do you like proships. genuinely. why. what makes them so good to you? to me, they, well, make me feel nauseous and gross. sometimes even violated depending on what it is. what about these, honestly, gross ships is so good to you? what makes you think they're good? i'm not looking for an argument. just,, answers.

Alright, I'll answer in good faith here, because i really appreciate not picking a fight or an argument

First off, please, don't say , "you like proships" proship doesn't mean "problematic ships", it means "pro" (as in favor of) shipping, that is to say, it's an anti harassment stance on letting people do whatever they want, based off the old fandom saying "ship and let ship"

you dont need to like problematic ships to be proship, you just need to be against harassment of people who enjoy darker or more 'edgy' media, and that's it

As for you question in itself, it's complicated, some problematic ships i enjoy stem from my own trauma and family issues, particularly my abusive mother. Reading and making content with parental incest gives me comfort through the fact that its an inconditional , codependent love. In fiction it feels comforting, but i know reality is way different first hand.

For age gap ships, theres a whole aspect about having someone take care of you, and also again, love regardless of situation, plus there is self insertion as it makes me think of back when i was a teen and had crushes on older people. I couldn't act on them, and I knew that any adult willing to date a child is no good. But within fiction,you can write about it and it would be harmless, generally speaking

For dead dove or more problematic stuff,such as abusive relationships, theres again the desire for love no matter what, and the situations those develop in, are usually trauma bonding for the involved characters

Now, these are not the ONLY reasons i enjoy such ships. There's also the aspect that i just like some of them aesthetically, or i see their chemistry in a romantic light, Or i have a streak of sadism towards a certain character.

Another reason is the potential for interesting fan content, particularly fanfiction, wholesome ships are sweet and cute and can be hot even, but it's all very by the book. The exploration of their emotions, thoughts and actions in messed up situations is more interesting to me

For sibling incest particularly, i just feel that they're usually developed in such a way that it can easily be seen as romantic, since we spend so much time with them, and seeing them fight and bond and laugh and promise to be together, that it just clicks different

and, It's understandable that you feel nauseated and grossed out by a lot of these, in fact, there are problematic ships and tropes i hate and despise, despite the fact that i love other messed up content for example

- I hate bully/victim ships

- I hate uncle/niece ships

- I hate cheating stories

- I hate forced feminization

- I dislike enemies to lovers

- I dislike anything involving characters I consider too young

- I dislike vomit and sick fic

a lot of people love these! but i dont! some of them make my skin crawl! but i dont go and yell at them, i dont comment on their things, I just block them and move on, and focus on the stuff i DO like ,which is what i generally suggest

Fictional exploration of darker stories is okay, and generally harmless. I know the argument that it can be used to groom people, but truly, that's not the fault of the content or its creator, the blame is fully on the groomer.

Also, if we started banning or bashing things that can be used to groom others, we'd have to ban stuff like plushies, candy, adult collectionists of cartoon merch, comics, books,etc etc

ANYTHING can be used to groom a person, if there's a groomer targeting them. nothing is safe if there's an actual pro contact pedophile with the intention to groom a child. The only way to prevent these things is to be taught about them, and to learn to not take life advice from fanfiction, which should be a given.

Like seriously, think about it. let's see, a safe hobby, non fandom related....

okay, imagine theres a minor who's very interested in learning about history and historical maps of the world.

This kid joins an unsupervised group online, and talks about wanting to make friends, and does make some nice, age appropriate friends

They feel generally safe online

Then,a groomer targets them, befriends them and brings up the fact that they collect maps, and they love history just like the kid.

then moves into talking about 'old customs' and starts planting the idea that old societies were in the right about child marriage and so on, until they actually gets what they want, and commits a crime.

The groomer didn't need a fanfic to convince the kid

they just needed to manipulate the child into trusting them, using whatever the kid liked.

who do you think it's at fault here?

the kid? the history book? the group? the internet? Nope.

It's the groomer's fault for targeting the child

and it's the parent's fault for not teaching online safety to their kid.

[dumbblondesposts]

Klaroline is centered entirely around Tyler

I feel like a lot the people who hate klaroline (as they should) really don't understand the foundation of the ship which is why it's labeled as something that doesn't make sense/random, and the reason for that is the Tyler of it all.

Like of course when delusional shippers or anyone really think Klaus was actually in love with Caroline or even liked her in the first place at least initially it's easy then to label it at something that doesn't narratively make sense because it's not explained why he took interest in her , but the thing is the writers knew that which is why we have only like two to three semi subtle cues explaining the basis of the ship but it's unfortunately buried under a tons of fan service especially within the huge fan base

So basically klaroline's first interaction that sparked that cursed ship is 3x11, it's right after Tyler is first seen standing up to Klaus and showing clear rebellion against Klaus enslaving him that he first orders him the bite his girlfriend before showing up at her house etc, all that he knows about her is that she's a random "pretty" teenager which is why he's for no reason on a mission to woo her with all sorts of gifts, since basically he doesn't know shit About her, he's never shown to be physically attracted to her despite seeing her around before and only gave two fucks about her when he wanted to put Tyler in his place, then you have him almost murder her again in season 4 to "teach Tyler a lesson the hard way" and these are his words, like my guy was willing to kill her if it meant humbling Tyler💀 he Brags about how he hurt Tyler to Elijah by "sleeping with his girl", he tells Caroline he couldn't stop thinking about her but the moment they finally fuck he dips lmao??

Even throughout the whole thing Klaus is like "Tyler isn't enough for you, you want to see the world instead bla bla" because he doesn't know her or even actually cared to know her beyond what he sought from her which is literally just to put Tyler in his place and he thrived on the chase, the fact that he failed to get the teenage girl to give in , he was willing to murder her to get back at Tyler, he attempted to sexually assault her and left happy after he finally slept with her

But of course the shippers see the hot villain gift horse paintings to this random ass teenager and they go "he's so in love with her😍"

This whole rant is basically because I'm tired of Klaus's feelings for Caroline being painted as "love" among both fans and antis , I get that he at best might have developed more of a soft spot for her but that was all it was tbh , they have no moments showing actual love/no moments of Klaus taking the time of day to consider her feelings nor does he go out of his way to do anything for her, Caroline was simply a prize to be won out of his grievances with her boyfriend, if Tyler was dating any other pretty girl Klaus would've went for her for the simple fact she's Tyler's gf and he felt the need to humble him

[rosesradio]

may i ask why ppl hate caleo so much? I'm reading ToA rn so idk if it's based on stuff that happens there, but in HoO I didn't really catch anything that would make it this "don't touch with a ten foot pole" ship, yk?

/gen

Hi !! Thanks for sending this in. I feel like I and others have kinda gone through some things in the anti-caleo tag, but I'm gonna go through some of the reasons with as much textual evidence and objectivity as possible. (minus my inevitable unorganized rambles, they're contextually relevant, stop looking at me--)

That being said, this is completely a matter of opinion, as all shipping is. I don't mean to say that you are "allowed" to ship or that you're "stupid" for shipping xyz, I couldn't care less what you ship--let's all just be nice to each other.

That being said, let's start with the two most common reasons why most people dislike caleo:

1.) the age gap

2.) their "bickering to lovers" dynamic is not written well/they seem to dislike each other/etc

The easier one to start with would be the age gap. Now (warnings for rent-lowering gunshots around my blog), I meant what I said when I said I don't care about ships. Most of my beloved mutuals ship the nastiest shit imaginable, and I am very anti-censorship (but that's several other posts). I generally have preferences for healthy ships when it comes to a Fluffy Endgame (dark fics with toxic ships are different to me).

That being said, I don't typically enjoy ships with a large age gap, and most other people find them unappealing as well. I could be persuaded with some (nipollo and rachel/apollo, i'm looking at you), but caleo just kinda grosses me out in this regard, probably due to other aspects of their relationship.

(Some people say she's "mentally fifteen", but I don't really buy that--if she were like a faerie or something, maybe, but I see her more as Edward in Twilight--looks young but has wisdom beyond her years. There's no definitive answer on this so it's not something I would like to debate (none of this is lol) but I thought I would mention it anyways.)

Although your question is about ToA, I'm only going to cover HoH through the first ToA book, because I'm still reading through the ToA books (though I know the big spoilers). I know caleo takes on a bigger role in the second book so i might come back and do a part two to uh...complain about their dynamic more? lol

so, without further ado--

The House of Hades

So, this is the first impression we get of Calypso from Leo's perspective--the highlights to keep this from being 1 million years long (it still will be lol)--

"She looked maybe fifteen, about Leo's age, and, sure, she was pretty; but with that angry expression on herface she reminded Leo of every popular girl in every school he'd ever attended—the ones who made fun of him, gossiped a lot, thought they were so superior, and basically did everything they could tomake his life miserable.Leo disliked her instantly.

---

The girl clenched her fists. Leo was pretty sure she was going to march down the crater and punch him in the face.

---

"Show yourself!" the girl yelled at the sky, completely ignoring Leo. "It's not bad enough I am exiled? It's not bad enough you take away the few good heroes I'm allowed to meet? You think it's funny to send me this—this charbroiled runt of a boy to ruin my tranquility? This is NOT FUNNY! Take him back!""

--pg 213 of The House of Hades pdf.

Now, keeping in mind that I read this for the first time at 13 and he was my book boyfriend (Or Whatever), I was not a fan of this, but even now that I've grown out of that, this still rings unfavorable to me.

He compares her to his bullies, the ones who made fun of him and created insecurities within him. And, making no effort to clear her name from this association, what is one of the first things she does? Screams at the gods for sending someone so conventionally unattractive. One of Leo's biggest insecurities in the books is not being as conventionally attractive or built as the other guys in the seven. One of his other insecurities is not having a girlfriend when everyone else is coupled up. So the solution is not to have him learn self-love and/or the love of friends, but to instead give him a girlfriend--the build-up time of which is short and intense. Not only that, but his love interest insults one of his biggest insecurities.

We're off to a great start.

Of course, I can't really blame Calypso for being pissed about the wreckage and about being sent another hero instead of being freed from the island. I would be pretty pissed, too, but she still treats him pretty badly, seemingly because he's not the "right" hero.

(For this next bit I am going through their time together in House of Hades and just noting anything that rings as a red flag to me--which is not a stretch as it's pretty much every other line lol. The brackets [] add context for dialogue, the parentheses () is my commentary, though most of these speak for themselves imo)

""Oh-gee-gee-ah." The girl pronounced it slowly, as if Leo were five years old.

---

She looked like she was about to answer but stopped herself. "It doesn't matter. You'll be gone soon. You're obviously a mistake."

That was harsh, Leo thought.He'd spent enough time thinking he was a mistake—as a demigod, on this quest, in life in general. He didn't need a random crazy goddess reinforcing the idea

---

"What am I supposed to do, then? Sit in the sand dunes until I die?" [Leo asked]

"That would be fine...." The girl threw down her trowel and cursed at the sky. "Except I suppose he can't die here, can he? Zeus! This is not funny!"

---

She looked the same age as him, but he wondered how old she really was. (age gap thing, delicious!)

---

"Would you be sweet," [Calypso said], "if they laughed at you by sending another hero, but a hero who looked like—like you?"

---

"Three thousand." Leo's mouth felt tingly, like he'd just eaten Pop Rocks. "Uh, you look good for three thousand."

---

"And now...the worst insult of all. The gods mock me by sending you." [Calypso said]

Anger bubbled in Leo's stomach.Yeah, typical. If Jason were here, Calypso would fall all over him. She'd beg him to stay, but he'd be all noble about returning to his duties, and he'd leave Calypso brokenhearted. That magic raft would totally arrive for him. (heartbreaking to hear about leo's insecurities but also...he is so gay for jason jdskjfs--)

But Leo? He was the annoying guest she couldn't get rid of. She'd never fall for him, because she was totally out of his league.

---

Despite the gifts, Calypso obviously didn't want to see him. One time he poked his head inside the cave and she freaked out, yelling and throwing pots at his head. (how to treat an abuse survivor 101)

Yeah, she was definitely on Team Leo. (this honestly just reminds me of the Echo scene and, honestly, I'd ship him with Echo Big Time over calypso)

He ended up pitching a more permanent camp near the footpath, where the beach met the hills.That way he was close enough to pick up his meals, but Calypso didn't have to see him and go into a pot-throwing rage.

---

"They are completely fireproof," Calypso promised. "They'll stay clean and expand to fit you,should you ever become less scrawny." (the prev part about her repairing the clothes was actually sweet in a platonic way...could have gone without the body-shaming !)

---

Then he remembered that this annoying fifteen-year-old girl was actually the immortal daughter of a Titan."

--pages 214-227 of The House of Hades pdf

Now, at this point I'll say that their relationship actually becomes quite sweet once they get past the frankly horrible section of time where they want each other to die. They're both lonely, they come to some understanding...I suppose this is a matter of opinion, but the romance aspect does feel forced. Time is different in Ogygia so it's hard to say how long Leo was there, if I were to estimate I'd say 3 weeks, but given that it's like 19 pages (and the text is larger on the pdf copy lol), it does feel rushed. Man do I wish they went for the platonic angle, but Richard could never.

The Blood of Olympus

Everyone's favorite book! lmao.

Now that our lovebirds are in Lovebird Territory (i guess), the amount of toxicity dwindles, but let's bite:

"'Sit tight, Sunshine,' he told Calypso's picture. 'I'll get back to you, just like I promised.'

Leo could imagine her response: 'I am not waiting for you, Leo Valdez. I am not in love with you.And I certainly don't believe your foolish promises!' The thought made him smile. (I guess this is supposed to be sarcastic, but way to reintroduce the concept of her really not liking him?)"

--pg 64 of The Blood of Olympus pdf

So, most of this book has mentions of Calypso from Leo's pov, and I gotta say (forgetting entirely that this doc is supposed to at least try to be subjective)...they neutered my boy. I often don't reread past MoA because of the caleo content, though what glimpses I've seen shows that his pov has experienced a massive shift. I think having so little page time and such an intense relationship buildup causes some readers to dislike how fundamentally she alters Leo's pov.

Additionally, I've seen some posts about Leo's suicide ideation. That is not something I want to go in depth about on this post, but I did want to draw attention to this excerpt I caught:

"Now the Argo II was approaching the end of its voyage. Leo's whole life – his childhood with Tía Callida; his mother's death in that warehouse fire; his years as a foster kid; his months at Camp Half-Blood with Jason and Piper – all of it would culminate tomorrow morning in one final battle.

He opened the access panel. Festus's voice creaked over the intercom.

'Yeah, buddy,' Leo agreed. 'It's time.'

More creaking.

'I know,' Leo said. 'Together till the end?'

Festus squeaked affirmatively.

Leo checked the ancient bronze astrolabe, which was now fitted with the crystal from Ogygia. Leo could only hope it would work.

'I will get back to you, Calypso,' he muttered. 'I promised on the River Styx.'

He flipped a switch and brought the navigation device online. He set the timer for twenty-four hours.

Finally he opened the engine's ventilator line and pushed inside the vial of the physician's cure. It disappeared into the veins of the ship with a decisive thunk.

'Too late to turn back now,' Leo said.

He curled on the floor and closed his eyes, determined to enjoy the familiar hum of the engine for one last night."

--pg 224 of The Blood of Olympus pdf

I'm not going to draw any definitive conclusions on the subtext of this or his plan with the physician's cure, but I will say Leo definitely needs therapy and the support of his friends over his want of a girlfriend. (And I'd say this regardless of ships--even if it were my beloved valdangelo. If Leo's mental health isn't addressed, it just makes it seem like a lazy fix-all)

I'm not going to pretend to be the best writer or understand character arcs better than our good friend Richard, but I think one of the reasons why Leo's character arc failed in this final installment is that Leo got what he wanted instead of what he needed. The best character arcs will display what a character wants, but by the end of the journey, a character will realize what they really need.

For example, in Gravity Falls (great show btw), towards the end of the series, Mabel wants to stay in a magical bubble created as a trick by Bill Cipher so she can stay in Gravity Falls forever. In the end, however, she realizes that what she really needs is to go back home to California with her brother, where they can get through high school with the support of each other.

If Leo had undergone an arc in which he really wants a girlfriend, but later realizes he needs to love himself first, that would have been really great and nice for kids to see that they don't need a significant other to make them whole.

Additionally--surprisingly--there were no glaring red flags for the rest of this book. They have a general vibe of "she doesn't really like him and he's a silly little guy" that I feel like is just rick pulling a "can I copy your homework?" with percabeth but it came out Wrong, but that's a matter of opinion.

ToA: The Hidden Oracle

""Here you go." Leo handed her a glass of lemonade. His expression seemed darker and more anxious, as if...Ah, of course. Leo had rescued Calypso from her prison island. In doing so, Calypso had lost her powers. Leo felt responsible."

--pg 239 of The Hidden Oracle pdf

This seems like something they'd have to work through, which is possible, but also a very intense thing to put on a relationship between an already traumatized 16 year old (and his over 3000 year old girlfriend, etc.) I suppose if this was written through in a thoughtful way I'd understand, but it's kind of one of those things that makes me look at them and go...realistically, at best I see them lasting 6 months to a year.

(tbh a lot of the ships outside of percabeth don't seem to have that...well, percabeth longevity--i mean just look at how jiper broke up. not that Richard would break caleo up atp, of course...unless...)

Final Thoughts (unless I return after finishing ToA but no promises)

And so, we conclude. I think I learned some stuff by revisiting canon instead of just remaining amongst online fandom & my memory of canon. Honestly, I can see why people would like this ship--I still hate it the most out of any pjo ship, but I gotta admit it had its sweet moments. Just as I pointed out red flags and had opinions stated as subjective, other people could point out what they consider green flags and why they think the ship is great.

To conclude (my English teachers quaking in their boots rn), myself and other caleo haters dislike the ship due to the age difference, the rushed nature, and the enemies to lovers dynamic being written in a way that ultimately gives the energy that our love birds do not like each other. I hope this dive into the foundation of their relationship clarifies some of these things for you, and thanks for the ask!

[damnfandomproblems]

Since one ask in response to Problem #4927 has generated several replies in a short time, I've decided to consolidate the ones I've received into one post.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anon:

You know when you see an ask that's so off the mark, and you wonder to yourself hm, which of the blogs I recently blocked for having 'proship dni' in their bio (because no reasonable and properly informed person would have that in their bio) could this be? This. This is that ask

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anon:

I wish I could block people who send anons to other blogs because sometimes the take is just so misguided don't even want to try unpackong it

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Anon:

Most people seem to agree this is an ice cold take, but I want to add this too (without assigning blame to anyone who does this, since there isn't actually anything blameworthy about the example): I think part of the problem with all these people (including anon) thinking proship means "I ship (thing)" is bolstered by the fact a ton of people who ship certain uncomfortable, or controversial, dynamics often have "proship" in big words at the top of their blog. And anyone who sees this ends up conflating "proship" with "I ship (thing)"... Even though the causation is actually the inverse. As in, they ship (thing), so why wouldn't they be proship, a stance that says ship and let ship? Would be awfully dumb if they weren't. Meanwhile, a lot of proship people who don't really have controversial or dark or whatever else ships tend to not have "proship" at the top of their blogs, which just solidifies the conflation of "proship" meaning "I ship (thing)". Some do, but most don't. But like another commenter said, I feel like we might need to just move away from buzzwords all together, because clearly people won't stop trying to repackage what they mean, and or misinterpret them based on first-glance, passing observations. That second part is mainly why I think "proship", while the root is pretty damn self-explanatory, still confuses people.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anon:

"stop calling yourself a proshipper if you only like mix-raced and other such safe stuff," Okay, two questions: 1. Do you realize mixed race ships are actually super controversial and dangerous to ship, because some antis will say you're either fetishizing (even if you're not), or accuse you of "tokenizing" a non-white character by shipping them with a white character? 2. What are your parameters for what qualifies as "safe"? Because you're already showing one of the biggest anti (or pro-censorship, if you really don't want to use "fandom words") hypocrisies in the book: attacking certain subject matter while giving other kinds of subject matter, which are arguably just as taboo, a free pass. For instance, most antis don't bat an eye about shipping Hannibal and Will Graham (Hannibal NBC series) because that, despite the plethora of physical and mental abuse, is just that. It's not sexual taboo, just every other kind of taboo. So I ask, what are your parameters for what is "safe"? Because chances are, they will either be contradictory in some way, or just make no sense.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anon:

["Make a new term" fucking lol. Should proshippers go make their own Ao3, too?] My reaction exactly, lol. Also, for anyone who didn't already know: AO3 literally was created by proshippers. One person actually shipped Wincest and Thorki, and wanted a censorship-free (within the confines of US law, obviously) space to archive that stuff. Hence AO3 was born. The people who made AO3 are now middle aged or nearly there, and aren't going to take your shit. So in that sense, it's more like: listen up, all you annoying-ass censorship-happy babies: AO3's source code is public, it's all there, you're free to make your own space, if you don't like the one WE created, then YOU came barging into, then YOU started screaming about containing stuff you didn't like.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anon:

I am a fandom oldie and I miss when "proship" and "anitship" were just terms used in fandom with no deeper meaning. You could be both a "proship" and "antiship" person simultaneously because it was a ship by ship basis. I miss when they literally just meant "I like this ship" and "I do not like this ship". No argument on morality one way or the other. No harassment. Just people loving their fictional characters' dynamics and enjoying them with other people. Example: a NaruHina proshipper meant you shipped Naruto and Hinata for any reson (maybe you liked their chemistry). A NaruHina antishipper meant you probably not only didn't like the ship, but were actively against it for some reason (could be any reason like you shipped NaruSaku or something, that you didn't like their dynamic, or any other reason). It wasn't about the ship being "problematic" or whatever. It was just a personal feeling.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anon:

For Christ’s sake, a lot of issues could be solved with a Google search (proship means anti-harassment, anti-censorship, ship and let ship) or just blocking and moving on. Or just resolving misunderstandings instead of leaving dirty laundry out in public. I do not use the proship label. I am very against censorship, hence the meaning of the label, but I’m not slapping a label on myself that essentially boils down to, “I don’t like this, so I’m not gonna look at it/imma block people or tags because I don’t like it” and then moving on. And because ironically, people who have easy access to the internet where, again, Google is free, will slap on a false accusation on me over fiction. And that is something I do not want to deal with. Before someone goes, “I have been harassed by proshippers more than antis,” those people are NOT proshippers, those were actual antis. Or alternatively, “there was a kid that got groomed by proshippers,” again, those people are NOT proshippers, those are predators. Again, Google is free, look up terms, and wash the bias you have for specific people out of your eyes and out of your ears. Use your critical thinking skills.

[beautifulpersonpeach]

Hi BPP, How will I know when the implosion begins? Is there an inverted yield curve for fandoms? Point form answers are are acceptable! Happy D-DAY!! 💜💜

Thank you for all the work you’ve put into this blog. It’s been a super interesting and enjoyable part of SM for me!

***

Hi @babyyourelemonade

An inverted yield curve for fandoms! Now that's a brilliant idea. I'd personally pay to contribute to funds for research on that topic honestly. And it could have implications outside of fandom too, such as for whole countries since many fandoms now work like splintered political communities more than anything else. I imagine it would be an upgrade to the theory on what caused the fall of Rome, or something like that.

I think I'm alone (mostly) in my opinions on the fandom imploding, and I don't want to talk much about it because I genuinely hope I'm very wrong, and because I don't have a lot of evidence to back up why I feel this way, so there's little point in going on about it.

But you've asked so I'll be brief:

Personally, I think the implosion has already started lol. The moment the fandom decided that taekookers were someone else's problem and should only be ignored, the seeds for implosion were already set. In my opinion. Think about Larries and the 1D fandom. Shipping is one thing but as I've said before, there are theories unique to taekook shipping that are inherently subversive to the very idea of BTS, and all it takes is someone crazy enough to do real damage. But that risk was somewhat contained so long as BTS was active and things were predictable. After the 2022 Festa Dinner and the fandom now experiencing Chapter 2 where so much is now unpredictable, where indulging in competition between the members is more permissible, the control on that risk has reduced somewhat. Solo stans, akgaes, and toxic shippers are like an immuno-virus that weakens from within because they're just as passionate and involved as regular fans, they're just twisted enough to prioritize their desires over everyone else, including the members they claim to stan.

The second problem is ARMYs. Lol. Specifically the ARMYs who have tied BTS's worth to the records and titles they hold, because those are the people most likely to do stupid shit when they feel threats to those records are imminent. At some point in 2021, I noticed when people would discuss what BTS means to them and to the industry, they'd just rattle off only records and accomplishments as if that was it. Before then, at least in my experience, people would talk about the lyrical impact of BTS's songs, they'd talk about the stylistic choices made in this or that album that relative to the other albums out at the time, and so on. There's nothing wrong with gloating about BTS's records because frankly that's the only thing that shuts up some antis. But it becomes a problem I think, when those records become the primary reason you think BTS have the status and caliber they have, and you’ve tied it to a central part of your identity.

Because records will always be broken.

And in Chapter 2 that is nearly guaranteed to happen. So the ARMYs who make that both their identity, and BTS's, will expose BTS to even more ridicule than they would've faced otherwise and will be disproportionately affected. If another group gets a Grammys nomination this year for example, or *gasp* actually wins the award next year, lol just pack it all up and give it to God. It will be bloody in these purple streets. Because too many ARMYs have tied BTS's worth to their achievements and only heightened the risk for implosion before 2026.

I've got a few more reasons but I've already written enough, and like I said I don't have much evidence for what I'm thinking anyway. But I suggest anyone who calls themselves a fan of BTS, reflect sometimes on why they're a fan, why they spend time in fandom spaces, and think about how to build real, honest community with people here while trying not to take too much personally.

[myfandomrealitea]

I think most people would, if they knew my stance on shipping, put me into the pro shipping category.

But I feel uncomfortable being labeled this way because I very much have limits.

I don't think people should write fanfiction or draw explicit fanart of characters being played (or voiced) by underage actors (and ofc the same applies to explicit rpf of said actors).

I just think the risk of these young, valuable people coming across these fanworks featuring either them or their likeness is too high (and one also has to remember the natural curiosity to check out stuff featuring them).

I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, but what do you think?

I think that that's a reasonable stance and perspective, to have.

The common assumption about proshipping is that you absolutely have to support and endorse absolutely everything and if you don't you're backsliding into being an anti, or you're not fully a proshipper.

But here's the thing; that's not actually the core meaning or value of proshipping. Proshipping does not inherently negate or demand that you have absolutely no limits or that you can't inherently disagree with or be uncomfortable with certain things.

Everyone has certain limits and certain things they simply cannot support or agree with. And that's perfectly fine. Where proshipping comes into it is recognising that everyone has that right, and also the right to still create and engage with things that you personally don't.

Its absolutely fine not to want to identify as a proshipper if you feel that your stance and your limits might be misperceived by using the label. Proshipping does have its inherent meaning and core values, but everyone also uses the label differently and assigns different, personal interpretations and values to it.

There's no obligation to use labels in fandom spaces at all, and there's also no obligation to have an 'all or nothing' stance. I know people who are, by definition, antis, but they're also heavily anti-harassment. They don't think that, morally, I should be writing incest porn, but they also recognise that even if I do, it doesn't necessarily mean I support it in real life either.

Being concerned about how fiction might impact real people is a very considerate, respectful concern to have. Its also why fandom spaces need to remain self-moderated in terms of properly using tags, filters, ect. Another common misconception people have about proshipping and anti-censorship is the assumption that we want to be able to just throw pornography and fiction around anywhere and everywhere, but actually, we still very much believe that everything has its place, and that there are proper, respectful ways and places to host content.

There's a lot of rambling I could do about the symbiosis of respect and moderation between a person/their guardians and fandom content creators, but that would be digressing slightly.

(And the point that a lot of fanfiction about teenagers and minors is written by teenagers and minors.)

The general gist is;

Your opinion is not unreasonable. Nor do I think any less of you for it. Nor would any proshipper, really. That's your concern, your limit, and that should be respected. In the same way that you would need to respect that that content does, and will always, exist, and the people who do write it with the proper measures taken are no less deserving of at the very minimum, your acceptance of the fact that they have a right to.

Proshipping is not:

Having no limits at all.

Thinking that you MUST create absolutely any and all content.

Thinking that you MUST support absolutely any and all content.

Thinking that nobody ever can be uncomfortable with or disinterested in what you create or what is being created.

Proshipping is:

Understanding fiction is not a 1:1 reflection of a person's real interests beliefs, values or their moral standings.

Understanding that fiction is not reality. It does not create victims.

That within the bounds of law, people have a right to create content, even if its content you personally do not support or agree with.

Understanding you do not have the right to dictate what someone can or cannot create, and that you do not have the right to be cruel or harmful to them because of what they create.

[demonsfate]

shipping questions // accepting // @juanalmada1234 asked . . . shipping questions: 1, 18, 20, 22 and 28

1. what’s the best thing about shipping for you?

It's hard to say! There are so many great things about shipping! But I think it may just be delving deep into the characters' feelings. Often, people may behave differently toward those they are in love with. I feel that in ships, you can view a side of a character that isn't often seen. Like Jin may be more affectionate and more willing to make physical contact with a lover than he will with a friend. They may know stuff about each other than nobody else does. And we get to see just how far the characters will go for their lovers. I just think it's a great opportunity to flesh out two characters.

It's also interesting for Devil, because he used to be somebody who couldn't really love anyone. So, it's a new experience for him!

18. is there a ship you used to like, but not anymore?

I'm trying to think but... I don't think there really is? Usually it's rare for me to start disliking a ship I've enjoyed. I guess the closest thing to this would be that I used to consider the idea of Jin & Julia (they have stuff in common!) But I pushed that aside in favor for Jun & Michelle. Dunno why! But I just prefer the moms together lol

20. is there a ship you wanted to play, but couldn’t yet?

EEEEEYAHHHH!! As I said, I do have a soft spot for the Jin & Alisa ship, so I would not mind trying that one out!!! I also have a super secret soft spot for the Jin & Miguel ship! Y'know, it's not as toxic in MY portrayal 'cos Jin isn't actually responsible for the sister's death. But y'know, the guy who did get her killed still exists within him... so that would make things AWKWARD. Anyway, I like the Jin & Miguel ship just because it seems Jin has a thing for the hot-headed aggressive guys. And well... also just look at how TALL and HANDSOME he is! I thiiiiink those are the only ships I haven't really gotten to play yet? I'll probs get to play 'em eventually, tho! Frick, it took over a year for me to get a Xiao & Hwoarang to ship with!

22. is there any ship you will likely never play? (apart from the obvious in/cest, pe/dophilia etc, i want to believe you guys are Good)

Hmm. I think I'm pretty lenient on who I ship Jin with - like I'm VERY easygoing when it comes to writing ships! Hell, somebody could be like "do you wanna ship?" and I'll be like "SURE!" But I do have some dealbreakers, or more so, Jin has some dealbreakers. Like for example, I don't mind the Nina & Jin ship (I don't ship it but it's not something I dislike) but... I just don't see Jin dating an assassin. I see him dating a former assassin who now wants to make amends. But he's not going to date somebody who's still actively hurting or killing people. So like, that means Anna is also off the plate! I also don't see Jin with Marduk or Ganryu either luls. And obviously, Jin would never date Ogre for obvious reasons lol. He wouldn't date Azazel either. But honestly, I don't think those two are capable of romance.

Devil, on the other hand - I feel like there would be a lot more ships I'd be willing to do with him, but it also depends on the timeline. I'd joke that pre-purified Devil would go after Ogre, and he may! But Jin's hatred for Ogre is too strong, and thus, it influences Devil to be furious with Ogre. Devil, would however, go after Marduk - purified and not purified unfortunately. Like Jin though, he wouldn't be interested in Ganryu.

28. would you play a “bitter exes” relationship?

The funny thing is that out of all the years I've been RPing (11 years now...) I have never written a breakup with mine & my partner's muses, I've never written exes before. Isn't that weird? I always thought I'd get breakup threads 'cos I happen to frequently write problematic muses. (Like Devil - villains. Or if not villains, then morally gray / anti-heroes) Yet... nothing ever happens! The only time I wrote a breakup was in private discord RPs (back when I used to do those) and they got back together anyway lol.

But I wouldn't mind doing a bitter exes relationship! Though... I'm not sure how bitter Jin would be. I think Jin would only be very bitter if the relationship ended due to betrayal. But I'm not so sure 'cos I never had the opportunity!

Devil, on the other hand, would be a very bitter ex no matter how the relationship ended. Just because Devil, even after purification, is a jealous and possessive man. He may not be as aggressive about it as he once was, but he still feels those two emotions, and he still has to cope with them.