#I could write him better than the duffers >:(

[goofily-moved]

Icb I’m wanting to write Steve Harrington again haven’t I learned my lesson…

[carmenilla]

will telling mike “you’re the heart” before mike’s monologue to el to motivate him to say i love you is honestly all the byler proof i need

even the song that plays over it is called “you’re the heart” literally why. there’s no pro-milkvan explanation for this

it was will’s feelings (that he disguised as el’s) in the van that motivated mike to say what he said. and the funny thing is, will’s feelings literally can’t even be applied to el - “you make her feel like she’s not a mistake at all, like she’s better for being different.” we learn this is simply not true from mike and el’s argument in s4e3. “i am different”, “you think i’m a monster too.” THAT DOESN’T SOUND LIKE HE MAKES HER FEEL BETTER FOR BEING DIFFERENT??

so basically. mike was able to say i love you because will motivated him TWICE with his own feelings for mike that do not apply to el, and even the soundtrack highlights the one line will says during that part of the scene as opposed to literally anything mike was saying. i genuinely do not understand how it could get more obvious than this

why wouldn’t el be the one to motivate him? even if she doesn’t directly try to motivate him, why didn’t they write it so mike is motivated by el’s feelings and el’s love and his love for el instead of needing his best friend to get him to say i love you to his girlfriend of two years

at this point the only argument that can be made against byler endgame is that the duffer brothers are bad writers, and even that isn’t very strong argument because literally why are they good at writing every romantic pairing except for milkvan. also i feel like a bad writer wouldn’t write all the shit with will’s feelings in? like if they were bad at writing milkvan would just be boring and byler would barely even be a possibility. also, come on. the cinematography in season four when it comes to mike and will is so telling and so well done. from that alone i can tell that the duffers know what they are doing with these two

tl;dr - something something byler endgame

[0daylighthours0]

(part 2) A Deep Dive into Milkvan and Byler's Development: If Milkvan's Destined Endgame, Why's it Written Like This???

The decision to confirm Will to be in love with MIKE is wild, and I'll tell you why.

When you add a third party to a t.v show relationship, if the first relationship isn't perfect, people gunna start rooting for the third party. Take Stancy for instance.

Throughout s2, we got the vibes that Jonathan held feelings for Nancy. This was clear. But Nancy was still with Steve. This means, in order for us not to sympathize more for Jonathan, Nancy and Steve gotta be ✧ tight ✧. I mean, their issues must be kept at a low, and at the end of the day it's gotta be clearer to us that Nancy does in fact love Steve. Welp, that wasn’t the case. Stancy's relationship ✧ struggled ✧, justifying intimate moments between Nancy and Jonathan - making us feel as if he'd be better for her after all. A smart writing choice, as Duffers intended Jancy as season 2's endgame pairing.

Now, I'd like to point out the foreshadowing of this development.

Come the wrapping up of s1, and it seemed Nancy had retreated back to Steve.

They'd clearly reconciled and - to an outsider - all would appear to be going smoothly. But us as the audience know that not to be the case.

One reason? Well, she'd just shared a suggesting moment with Jonathan.

So our minds weren't on Steve and this show of his with Nancy. Rather, we read into Nancy's slight discomfort, and wondered if perhaps she'd prefer being with Jonathan instead.

This was of course intentional. I'd like to briefly bring to attention the similarities in these moments to ones at the end of s3 - between Mike and Will, and then Mike and El.

Here a conclusion to milkvan's seasonal drama is made, them seemingly staying together, parting on good terms. Hm. And milkvan's moment is.. kinda like stancy's. They got back together because, well, El said she loves Mike. And Steve loves Nancy. And Mike loves El right? The way Nancy loved Steve- But just, coincidentally, we have byler's reconciliation too.

This came before the guy's makeup with El, because, why? This was quite the interesting decision mates. It means that whilst he spends that moment with his girlfriend, our minds are fresh off of Will. People might read into the way he's acting in contrast, just maybe, the way they did during stancy. And people did. That's a bit of a fumble on the writers' part, if you ask me. I know you're trying to let us know that Mike's now on good terms with both members, and his and El's goodbye needs to be the dramatic finishing of the season, but, man, did byler even have to make up at all here you guys? I mean this miscommunication of theirs lasts through to s4 (just like janc-). Why not sort their good terms out later or earlier on, so that we have more mindspace here to focus solely on milkvan, our main main? Or at least, why not just have Mike apologize to Will and be done with it? He could even apologize alongside Lucas, making the moment less personal. And Will could simply forgive him, give a dudely pat it out, and that's it. We wash our hands.

But nah. There's this electricity in the air. The swelling music, the prolonged looks, this doesn't.. seem like a simple make up. It's startlingly short, making us feel as if there have been things left unsaid. And that line,

".. Not possible."

It's so... implying. What do you mean? Why are you looking at eachother like that? What am I meant to get from this scene?

And it isn't a closing reconciliation either, they haven't properly ended their season's drama. I mean no one even apologized for the argument, we're just sort of left with this. Left with the hint of a story that might be further explored - their moment coming off more as anticipation for what's to come than a conclusion. Maybe just a bit like Jonathan and Nancy s1.

But so what? That does not have to mean anything romantic between them is to be told. After all, El just expressed to Mike that she loves him. This means that these sweethearts are practically fortold as endgame, right?

Alright I'll stop stalling.

Season 4.

So. Will is in love with Mike now. Huh. Well, I don't recommend this. As I said, you risk people rooting for Will beyond their hopes for Mike and El as a couple. If this is a plotline you desire, it has to be navigated with precision. So this means that milkvan must be on their A game. Struggle between them has got to be handled delicately. As we see in stancy, and as we saw in s3, just making up at the end of it all isn't good enough. You can risk this mistake once, but we must like these guys together throughout season 4, more than we sorrow for Will. Infact, Will's feelings must not be made too big of a deal. Mike and El are going to stay together, so we should feel a bit sorry for him, but not gather any hope that things will actually work out to his favour.

Like Dustin in s2. He sprouted small feelings for Max, and so did Lucas. Lumax were the endgame, so Dustin's feelings were craftly navigated and not made more important than Max and Lucas' bond. We don't really feel that Dustin is in love with Max, moreso that he likes her and has some moments of jealousy aimed at Lucas. Noone really wanted him with her more than they rooted for Lumax, though we did sympathize for him and feel bad for him regardless.

So yeah, this can easily be written out for Will too. If his story's purpose is meant for the exploration of a gay kid navigating a still homoph#bic time, then there's a lot that can be done without even having to spare much screen time between him and Mike. Focus on his fear of judgement from Jonathan moreso maybe, or have Argyle say something - it can be whatever, mention something homoph#bic, mention something not homoph#bic and give Will hope, whatever - which sets off a thought or idea for Will that prepares his arc for the season.

Back to Mike and El - so we want a 'scared to say "I love you"' subplot. That's good, that good. Fleshes out Mike, plays into El's fears. Shouldn't be too hard.

There's already a mild problem though. This plot is playing out twice at once. We have our boy Will hosting this same fear of rejection by Mike - at least that's how things have been shot. His dread is portrayed through his restraint and timidity in revealing his painting to Mike. Will's painting is basically his version of a confession - the guy too selfless, shy and afraid to express his love outright.

So playing out this storyline at the double is.. a choice. I mean, Mike telling El he loves her is a big deal for the milkvans, shouldn't this romance dominate as much screen time as possible in order to be fully pumped up without any sidetracks to other insignificant in comparison feelings? S3 was already quite clumsy, why not have Mike and El's activities soak in all viewers' engrossment without any departures? Maybe spend a bit of time demonstrating how likeable and wholesome they actually are together. Now that we have Will's affection ontop it all, what's important is that Mike and El's camera time spent matters. They can be angsty, they can withhold some misunderstandings, but they still have to be a good. couple.

Oh yeah, also, Mike should blatantly display feelings for El and El only - duh.

.

..

huh ?

huh ? ? ?

[steddieas-shegoes]

I'll be full of the love you want

rated t cw: self-doubt, relationship doubt, light angst tags: happy ending, hurt/comfort-ish, super fluffy romantic words being said

a/n: firstly I am writing this absolute fluff because i've been listening to sleep token and decided i could handle listening to blood sport (i couldn't) and so now we get this fluff. second of all, i feel like before anyone comes for my throat, i LOVE nancy. i hate what the duffer brothers have reduced her character to canonically. she has so much potential, just sitting there, and what are they doing with it? making her worse. i do think that she is just very bad at reading what's appropriate to say to people, and that's what happens here. assume that it gets fixed and she apologizes later, this entire thing is to focus on the boys.

Sometimes, Nancy’s subtle comments remained in Steve’s chest, an unbearable weight that felt crushing.

“Eddie has plans, and they may not involve you.”

That’s what she’d said to him when he told her they were dating.

No congratulations, no friendly smile or hug, not even the expected game of 20 questions.

The words played on loop in his head as he found an excuse to leave movie night early, as he drove home, as he took a shower. 

He barely slept that night.

Nancy was right in a way; Eddie did have plans.

—-

“She what?” Eddie yelled.

“Eds-”

“No, that’s. Stevie, you know how ridiculous that is, don’t you?”

He did. 

But he also…didn’t.

It really wasn’t that ridiculous to think that maybe his boyfriend of barely a month would have plans that didn’t involve Steve.

Steve may be head over heels in love with him, but he hadn’t said that. 

“Is it?” Steve asked, not looking up at Eddie pacing in front of him.

Eddie stopped in front of him, dropping to his knees on the floor between Steve’s parted legs.

His hands gripped Steve’s knees, squeezing in silent comfort.

“Sweetheart, I know it’s hard for you to believe, but I’m all in with us. I’m not going anywhere that you can’t or don’t want to follow. If someone sends me to the moon, you better start packing your bags,” Eddie left a kiss on his thigh, looking up at Steve’s wide, glassy eyes. “I don’t think she meant to hurt you, Stevie. I’d just talked to her about the band possibly going to Chicago for a show soon and how excited we were about producers being there.”

“And if they like you guys, you’ll leave. And you should! I don’t wanna hold you back. I just was so wrapped up in the now, ya know?” 

Eddie looked up at him, eyes squinting at him for a moment before he stood up.

He sat down on the bed and pulled Steve onto him so he was straddling his thighs.

“You are more than just my now, Steve Harrington.”

Steve’s heart fluttered in his chest.

Eddie cupped his face in his hands, leaning his head down so their foreheads rested against each other.

“We’ve seen the end of the world together, we’ve seen each other at our worst, at our bruised, at our most vulnerable. You’re my entire world now, and in the future.” Eddie let out a shaky breath, something foreign for him, usually so confident in his words. “I love you. It might scare you off, but I do. I haven’t stopped picturing my future with you in it. Nothing could drag me away from you, not the band, not the kids, not myself. I’m yours, for the long haul, wherever that takes both of us.”

Steve sniffled, the tears pooling in his eyes fighting so hard to fall.

“You can’t say stuff like that,” he squeaked out.

“Why can’t I?”

“I might believe it.”

Eddie tugged him closer, one hand on the back of his head holding him against his shoulder, one arm wrapped around his waist.

“I need you to believe it, love. There is nothing that will keep me from loving you. If Vecna himself couldn’t, then Nancy’s words sure as shit won’t.”

And it could be simple.

It could.

Steve could believe it, he could say the words back, he could plan a real future with Eddie, something he’d never been able to do with anyone else.

“You’re thinking too hard,” Eddie interrupted his thoughts, his hand squeezing Steve’s hip.

Steve pulled back, looking at Eddie’s earnest face.

“I’m scared to love you the way that I do,” Steve admitted, voice barely more than a whisper.

Eddie heard him, though.

He beamed up at Steve.

“You can be scared, but you can love me anyway,” Eddie shrugged, as if it could actually be that simple.

Love was a silly thing. 

Steve felt it easily, for Robin, for the kids, for the Byers’, even Nancy still. He’d known what he felt for Eddie was love way before this conversation, but he hadn’t realized how much that love could grow when it was reciprocated.

Eddie looked at him now like he already knew, like Steve holding back wasn’t changing the fact that Steve had loved him for months now, maybe even longer.

“You can love me, Stevie. I want you to love me. Love me the way you feel,” Eddie continued.

His words cut through his heart, but in a different way than Nancy’s had.

Steve never got to love people the way he felt, always too much, always overwhelming.

His parents taught him not to be needy, let people show their love from a distance and don’t force your attention and care on them.

Nancy taught him that he couldn’t be someone else just because he wanted to love someone, that he had to accept that love wasn’t always enough for a relationship.

Eddie, though.

Eddie had taught him that there was nothing shameful about being loud with your passion, with your love. He taught him that he can’t hold back his feelings, not for anyone, especially not for himself.

He was showing him, more every day, that loving someone can and should be fulfilling.

He couldn’t be scared of loving Eddie, not when Eddie had always shown him how to be brave.

“I love you so much,” Steve gasped out.

It wasn’t the declaration he’d planned, or even wanted, but that somehow made it better for them.

Eddie’s beaming smile proved that even further.

“I’m so in love with you, I don’t know what to do with it all. I just keep thinking that one day I’ll wake up and feel less, but I just keep feeling more. I’m not good with words like you are, but I love you,” Steve added, finally gaining his voice.

“Feels good, right?”

“To love you?”

Eddie leaned up, kissed his chin, then the corner of his mouth.

“To show it to someone who wants it.”

Steve bit his lip, realizing that yeah, it did feel good. Really good.

“You’re gonna get so tired of me loving you.”

It was said as a joke, but it was his last genuine fear. The one thing that he knew always happened.

“I will never get tired of you loving me. Not for a single second. Not even when we’re old dudes sitting on our porch yelling at the kids with the loud music,” Eddie poked his side as he spoke.

“You won’t ever yell at anyone for loud music.”

“You never know. I could become a grumpy old man. Will you still love me?” Eddie pouted up at him.

“I think I’d love any version of you. Actually, I know I would.” “And you say I’m the sappy one.”

[miwiheroes]

Narrative-wise and character-arc wise based on what we know up until s4, do you think Mike and El break-up is better before or after the time skip?

aghhhhh this is such a hard question because it could actually work both ways tbh but it would just have to handled differently <3

If it's before the time skip:

this would feel extremely rushed and disingenuous if it is not done correctly. It would honestly feel like the Duffers just decided to fuck with their viewers by giving milkvan a 'good' moment in the last ep of season 4 and then taking it all away in season 4. I think if they were to do it before a time skip, the whole of the first episode would have to be before the time skip so it feels like the episode doesnt just BEGIN with like a big breakup, because closure to a storyline doesnt usually get done in the first episode or the beginning of the first episode.

I know, I know, we really want milkvan to break up immediately and have no romantic moments or whatever. I don't think this will be the case, I think if it's before the time skip, then El will likely break up with Mike, but honestly I have no clue how they will write it. Because the situation is way way more complicated than people actually write in fanfiction (I have literally written a milkvan breakup but i dont think it will happen in that way).

I think the only way that Mike can know about the painting is if he hears it from El, and I think it makes the most sense for her to tell him during the breakup, but this will make less sense if this breakup happens before the time skip. HOW IS MIKE MEANT TO RUMINATE ON THIS FOR A WHOLE YEAR AND A HALF ??????????????

If it's after the time skip:

this would be so weird because like <3 what do you mean they've been in this weird limbo space for a whole year and a half?

however, i think if it's after the time skip, it would make sense if mike keeps saying i love you to el and is now able to because he said it in the pizza place, but el still thinks that he is being fake. but then again it makes NO SENSE for her to not confront him about this for over a year yknow? therefore if this happens after the time skip then it would have to be mike breaking up with her after realising he's gay or something - therefore it would not be in episode one and would have to be after he's had a self-discovery arc. Maybe he realises what the painting really means, leading him to break up with her.

i would not like this however, because it does not make sense for his character to do this up to this point, since he has been so afraid of losing her, so honestly i think it needs to be el exercising her autonomy to break up with him if that happens, but this again makes no sense to do after a year and a half IM JUST SO CONFUSED ON WHAT THEY WILL DO HELPPPPP THIS IS JUST A STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS AT THIS POINT................

okay sorry for that rambling: honestly i think that it should happen before the time skip, and that pre-time skip should occur for a whole episode (episode 1) and the break up should happen around the end of the episode, where mike finds out about the painting so he can think about it for a longer time (1 year) which i guess means he can be the one pining yay

TLDR; i have a breakdown

[will80sbyers]

Love is important in Will's storyline because the Duffers decided it would be... They started with the script of season 2 where Will looks at Mike and El dancing, then in s3 they made him say this and fall completely for Mike, he's jealous and heartbroken that Mike and El are together and he realized he couldn't deny his feelings for Mike anymore

THEN in season 4 his whole freaking storyline is about how he's in love with Mike

so deeply that he wants his happiness before his own happiness

so he uses his feelings to help Mike and El "fix"( AKA PUT A PRECARIOUS BAND-AID ON!!!!!) their problems.... And that brings Mike to this thing here that he was scared to say for two seasons (imo also probably because deep down,even if not consciously, he knows El is not his "destiny", Will is.)

and Will to be heartbroken and resigned to never have Mike

It's the ripping of his band-aid but at the same time Mike doesn't know he felt secure enough to say the ily only because of Will and not El and that is a big lie that will be discovered and Mike also doesn't know Will is gay...

So what's the point in keeping this up next season if not to do a "Will they, won't they"situation and keep the love triangle going? (Aka queerbaiting if it doesn't end up in byler)

Will coming out to Mike and Mike only saying "oh yeah sorry bro I love El but you're my bestie so I accept you" would be underwhelming af as a story, it could happen but it would be shitty towards Will's character for what they made him go through all these seasons to not give him a big fucking win in the finale and get him THE boy he loves with such intensity and care...

Even if him coming out alone would be important for how they wrote his story it would not be enough of a pay off for a finale, they wrote the storyline of the painting making him make that stunning speech because we had to root for them to end up together and see how Will is a better fit for Mike than El ever was...

And also El and Mike's story is stagnant and repetitive and having another season like that would be just boring, they did everything they could to ruin their relationship this season and make them look mismatched and like they don't really get each other and this was intentional, it doesn't happen randomly!!!

Mike is going to find his own match in Will, he's going to be loved exactly how he wished to be loved all his life and it will be an happy ending for the 3 of them!!!

El's priority was always family since season 1 and she has her family now, "There's MORE to life than stupid boys." is something they decided to include right after the love monologue in Eleven's story because she's not focusing on romantic love now, she doesn't love Mike like Will loves Mike it simply has not been presented to be that intense

Will is going to be completely loved and accepted for who he is and Mike will have the same with their relationship and they can make a great story writing this in, they can make history and as writers they KNOW it's the best option for a happy ending because they are the ones setting it up and writing themselves in a corner

[thestobingirlie]

Hiii I would like to ask you a questioni because I really likes tour point of view on stranger things. Objectively, do you think there's any chance stancy is endgame?

these two asks are pretty much exactly the same, so i figure i’ll just answer them both in one lol!

so, from an objective standpoint i do think there’s a chance for stancy endgame. the duffers have proven before that they are capable and willing to break up a couple and push together another within one season (two if we’re including the season of flirtatious behaviour prior). if anything i’d say stancy’s chances are slightly stronger than jancy’s was post-s1. if only because s4 very explicitly laid out all the issues with jancy, while pushing stancy as a couple. whereas with s1, there’s nothing that really outright tells us that stancy would be having the issues they did in s2 (s2 had to demonstrate those issues, then break stancy up, while s5 wouldn’t be as confined to that for jancy).

i also think bringing back the love triangle just to completely disregard it the following season would be very weak writing. and that’s not to say that the duffers are the best writers in the world, but generally they seem to know what they’re doing. there’s a reason stancy was a couple at the end of s1 — it wasn’t solely a way to drag out drama but a real attempt at thinking about what nancy would’ve done as a result of steve surviving the season.

jancy was very clearly the original endgame. however, the duffers have shown that they’re willing to adapt from their vision for the sake of better storytelling. steve was supposed to die in s1. but they enjoyed what joe keery brought to the show as steve too much! all this to say, they’re not completely rigid in their writing. jancy being the og endgame, doesn’t mean they will be now.

from a slightly more emotional and personal standpoint, i do think stancy is the better endgame option. steve represents hope for nancy. freedom from her trauma, all the stresses that have been weighing on her for the last four seasons. while, right now, jonathan is knee deep in it all. he hasn’t even begun to pull himself out of it! let alone contemplate how to properly help nancy. he thinks ignoring her and pushing away his problems is the best way to deal with it, but we can see that it isn’t (if s2 stancy taught us anything lol). could jonathan grow out of that in the space of, what, five episodes? i don’t know.

steve’s development up to this point has taken multiple seasons. but he’s grown as a person. he’s learnt. his relationships have helped him become a more well-rounded person. the kind of person willing to prioritise nancy. to help her heal.

none of this means that stancy will definitely be endgame! because ultimately none of us know what the duffers are truly going to do. the fact that they’re willing to deviate from their original plans, if anything, proves that we can’t necessarily put all our eggs in one basket lol. but i do think they have a chance.

[henrysglock]

Will's character is not as selfless as the fandom claims, which is okay. But other than that my problem with Will's character is that he is way too flat and passive, and almost bordering on apathy toward things around him bc of it. This could be an interesting characterization if it was intentional but I feel like it's mostly a consequence of the Duffers way of writing his character bc they don't really care for writing him.

Hm. You had me in the first half, lost me in the second.

Will cares, I think, but it's a question of "does he care enough to put himself out there on the behalves of others?".

Noah plays a very expressive Will, and we can definitely tell that he's a deeply empathetic person. When others are hurting, so is he. He's not apathetic. But just being empathetic does not make someone actively good. The good comes from helping people. In fact, I'd wager that someone with no capacity for empathy doing helpful things because they know, logically, that they're "supposed" to is a better person than someone who feels concern deeply but stands aside.

I think Will is ultimately held back by his fear, with resentment playing second fiddle, and I think it's a really good interesting and deliberate writing choice. It really shows how Will's childhood (the bullying, the Upside Down, El's entrance into his life) have shaped him as a person and how he's coping—or not coping—with these events. It also highlights which relationships are most important to him, and which are colored by resentment.

I think Will's inaction offers a lot of depth to his character, if you're willing to see it for what it says about him rather than brushing it off as poor writing. The Duffers write so many great characters, but as soon as Will does something that doesn't fit the fans' preconceived vision of him, it's bad writing? Miss me with that. Will contains multitudes.

[grace-aline]

Why I think Bob Newby had to die (part 2)

Make way for Jopper!

Listen. I’m as into shipping ST characters as much as the next Byler. Edits, fanart, fanfiction. Can’t get enough of that shit. Shipping is such a good, positive lens to watch the show through, and my GOD does it bring out some incredible analysis and literary criticism in the fandom.

I feel like I should preface this post by saying that, although I’m very fond of Bob, I’m not anti-Jopper by any stretch of the imagination. Hats off to those who are, but unfortunately I think that fighting Jopper is a bit like fighting the tide going out; like it or not, it’s probably going to happen. Canon Jopper definitely has its issues, don't get me wrong, but it’s exactly that; canon. It’s the most logical, inevitable endgame outcome at this stage, and I don’t think that’s likely to change.

However. I do think that Jim Hopper’s presence in the show was enough to write Bob’s death warrant.

Because from the minute Bob steps onto screen, bridging the gap from extra to character the longer the camera remains trained on his cheerful, innocent face, the same kind of inevitably follows him. Not the inevitability of his death, per say, but certainly a sense that somewhere in writing headquarters, an egg timer has been flipped on Bob and Joyce’s relationship, and that their time together is now counting down. In Beyond Stranger Things, the Duffers talk at length about Bob as being Joyce's "dorky boyfriend" who ultimately “...was always- he was always going to eat it.”

Joyce and Hopper, on the other hand, are one of those duos who are written with a implied degree of romantic certainty from the very beginning of the show. The eye contact, the bickering, the way she calls him ‘Hop’. We as viewers are given the ability to speculate as to their history from their first scene together; when Joyce arrives at the police station to report Will missing. From episode one, season one, they’re looking at each other like this:

It's not necessarily overt, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that there is implied history between the pair. When you watch this scene, you also just. Get the general sense that Hopper is going out of his way to help Joyce? I know, I know, Hopper is initially very dismissive of Joyce’s concerns. But the way Joyce is able to talk her way into meeting with the Chief of Police, the way that Hopper himself organises searches and takes time out of his day to meet with and give Joyce personal updates… I guess you could argue that, being Police Chief in a small town, Hopper doesn’t have anything better to be doing with his time. But it’s not like he's only doing the bare minimum for her and Will, and we don’t see him answering early morning callouts or searching through the night for Barbara and Cindy Holland, for example. To me, it definitely reads as Joyce getting special treatment from Hopper.

It's not just us viewers speculating, though. Throughout the show, multiple side characters assume or otherwise divine the fact that Joyce and Hopper have unfinished business together. After defending Joyce to his officers and storming off, Callaghan remarks to Powell that “Her and the Chief have screwed before, right?”, Doctor Owens assumes that Hopper is Will’s “Pop”, and Murray gives the pair a fair earful when he finds out that they’re not dating: “...why don't you two cut the horseshit and get to the part where you admit your sexual feelings for one another?... And now, rather than admit these feelings, you're dancing around one another with this mind-numbing, frankly boorish mating ritual." Even Alexei, who has like half an hour of screen time total and has only known Joyce and Hopper for a couple of days, is shocked by the fact that “They have not had sex?”

I guess what I’m trying to say here is that any viewer or character with even an ounce of media literacy can tell that the Duffers establish Joyce and Hopper’s slow burn romance from very early on in the show. Despite their personal obliviousness (or perhaps more likely, their unwillingness to acknowledge the elephant in the room), there are a few key scenes in which even Joyce and Hopper themselves acknowledge the tension between them.

Bringing us back to season 2, though, what I’m most interested in are their interactions in 02x01: MADMAX. (I think it’s important to look at the series of moments between Joyce and Hopper here as being accumulatively damning to Bob, rather than individual scenes which could mean nothing on their own.) Keep in mind also that this is the first time we’re seeing Hopper and Joyce interact this season; the last we saw them together, they were on a high-stakes mission to bring Will back from the dead. First, Owens mistakes Jim for Will’s father, a mistake he continually makes throughout the series.(I'm thinking about the way that he later addresses/defers to Hopper’s wishes for Will, rather than Bob, and the way that he pulls Hopper, rather than Bob, aside to explain that Will is infected by a parasitic host.) As they depart the lab, Hopper and Joyce have an interaction which is slightly tense and defensive, respectively. After a pause, Hopper asks, “How’s, uh, Bob the Brain?”, not meeting Joyce’s eye, his tone faux-casual. Joyce replies, perhaps a little too quickly, saying, "Don't call him that... He’s good! We’re good.” Her tone has no real bite to it, though. Not long after this chronologically, but in the next episode (2x02: Trick or Treat, Freak) Joyce and Hopper share a cigarette back at her house. After discussing Joyce’s concern about Will’s worsening condition, they move on to (dangerous) reminiscences:

“Brings me back to old times.” "What?" "Well. Sharing my cigarettes between-" "Fifth and sixth period.” "Yeah, under the steps. Mr. Cooper caught us that time, remember? He was like ‘hey, assholes...’” “-we ran, we just ran.”

They laugh together, and then pause, holding one another’s eye contact as the music takes on a slightly melancholy tone. And I know, I know, eye contact isn’t concrete evidence. But just look at the way that they’re looking at each other:

As viewers, I think the Duffers want us to read into the subtext of this interaction; that is to say, what isn’t being said rather than what is. The Duffers want us to, in hindsight, rewatch the scene and see Hopper’s jealous curiousity, Joyce’s playful banter and obvious connection with Hopper despite her ongoing relationship with Bob.

So, Joyce and Hopper’s connection to one another is carefully and clearly established from the beginning. Let’s look at the suitors vying for Joyce's attention, then.

Hopper is a man of action, a man of impulsive decision and a blustery kind of confidence. Being ex-military and generally just fairly quick off the mark, he has a talent for coming out on top of whatever challenge is thrown his way. On top of this, we as an audience are expected, even encouraged to prefer him as a potential suitor because we spend more time with him, and because his character arc is more satisfying. There’s more meat, more complexity to a character who starts out carefully written to be somewhat unlovable in season one. You have to work to like him, work to see his perspective and appreciate how his past, intentionally fed to us in touching, accumulative flashbacks, informs his current approach to relationships. When season 2 opens, we see soft spots, fleetingly, in the way he takes El in, feeding her and clothing her and keeping her alive. We see a soft spot in the way he is implied to have gone with Joyce to every single one of Will’s appointments and in telling her to “…call me first” if she’s worried about Will. In other words, Hopper’s usefulness in dangerous, high pressure situations, when combined with his slow character growth, gives him this inherently endearing quality to audiences. If you didn’t start an outright Hopper fan, maybe you didn't necessarily want to like him, but you knew that characters needed and relied on him; and slowly, slowly, he grew on you too. Maybe not, I don't know. But that's my interpretation.

By contrast, and intentionally I think, Bob fails where Hopper succeeds. He isn’t as smooth or as quick-witted as Hopper. For example, he is frequently shown making verbal blunders, such as being too forward with Joyce by telling her he wants to move out of Hawkins with her, or giving Will poor advice regarding his episodes. On a more mundane level, a lot of his lines are framed in such a way as to make him come across as a little bit socially tone-deaf, unaware of the potential cause for embarrassment in phrases like “sneaky little buggers”, “the Bob-mobile”, or who could forget, *vampiric accent* “I hope it doesn’t suck!” And sure, Bob’s manner of speech is endearing in its own way, but what I’m trying to convey is that, unlike Hopper, it comes with a catch; we as viewers can’t help but cringe a little at him, even as we smile. The central characters are no different, either. Below are actual, real-time reactions to Bob:

Also unlike Hopper, Bob is less situationally and physically adept. He’s got his brains, but he doesn’t know how to use a gun, he doesn’t stand up to Owens and the other Doctors when they're mistreating Will and he ultimately fails to get out of the Lab, a character flaw which costs him his life.

From an even closer reading, just look at the way Hopper and Bob grate against one another in the Lab, one of their first and also one of their last scenes in the same room. To the absolute credit of scripting and acting choices in the scene, Hopper is fiercely calm and focused on the logistics of their escape, while Bob appears out of his depth from the way he gets uncharacteristically snarky with Jim, the way that his breathing is louder and more erratic than the other characters', and even Bob's comedically awkward stance as he tries to help Hopper to raid one of the dead guards:

I think there’s also something to be said about their obvious height difference. Sean Astin, who plays Bob, stands at around 5”6 inches, meaning that David Harbour, who plays Hopper, towers over Bob at approximately 6”2 inches. Now obviously height differences don’t actually, materially matter, but I think the way that Hopper physically dominates and intimidates Bob in his greater height and stronger build is meant to be another, subtler indicator that Bob is in over his head, quite literally.

And then, once he’s alone, Bob’s panic escalates, visibly sweating profusely as he starts to make regular, fatal mistakes. He leaves the gun behind in the basement, he knocks over a broom, alerting a Demodog to his hiding place. And of course, he stops running too soon in the reception hall, ultimately leading to his demise. Helpfully, the Duffers make sure you don’t miss any of these slip-ups with the use of an ominous zoom and a carefully timed stinger on the abandoned gun, and the way the broom falls in a dramatic, almost comic slow motion.

It would have been much quicker and more efficient for them to just hold up a big sign that says, “Bob is weak compared to Hopper guys! He’s not cut out for Joyce’s lifestyle!”

And listen. I’m not saying that I think Bob deserved to die for being unable to match Hopper’s cool-headedness or his combat skills. But I do think that the Duffers exaggerated Bob’s gentle goofiness at times, so that when standing next to Hopper, fans know that ultimately Hopper will replace him.

Interestingly, David Harbour confirms my theory in the Beyond Stranger Things documentary, which covered the filming of Season One and Two: “Does Hopper think that Bob and Joyce are a good match? I would say absolutely not. I mean look, I get the impulse that she’s following in terms of like… she was clearly in a very destructive relationship with Lonnie, and she’s clearly very protective of Will. And so she’s sort of chosen this guy that’s going to be… very nice to her, very nice to Will, and be a kind of good, dorky father figure.” He then goes into how he thinks that ultimately, Joyce and Hopper are “…two really lonely, lost people that really need each other.” “The short answer,” he goes on to summarise, “is I do feel like the sex will be a lot better with Hopper than it is with Bob.”

Hard to know what to say after that one, so there you have it. Another reason why Bob Newby had to die.

[fanfic-lover-girl]

Double Standards: Draco Malfoy Edition

My main issue with HP is Slytherin vs Gryffindor double standards. I like Draco Malfoy and I find Slytherins very interesting. I understand why people don't like him. But I hate when people demonize Draco for something but are perfectly ok when another character (eg. the golden trio) does the same thing. So based on the post above, I wanted to share a defense for Draco Malfoy. Most of the logic comes from the post above but a good portion of these arguments are mine.

Draco mocks Hufflepuffs

Hagrid: “everyone says Hufflepuff are a lot o’ duffers–”.

Hagrid also says everyone in Slytherin is destined to be evil. Hagrid is a grown man (well half-giant) perpetuating harmful stereotypes to Harry while Draco is a kid (11 yrs old).

Also, Harry did not lift a single finger to defend Cedric and Hufflepuff house when the lions were bashing and mocking Cedric. This is AFTER Cedric, being a good sport and overall great guy, told his housemates to back off Harry. Cedric was too good for these books. Cedric was the hero horrid Harry could only dream of being.

Draco has not mocked Hufflepuffs since his intro chapter.

Draco bullied Ron and Harry

Harry and Ron initiated this antagonism. Harry likened Draco to Dudley after a short conversation. The same Draco who engaged him in conversation despite his poor appearance. Harry never gave Draco a chance before he painted him as evil. Draco ignored Ron on the train until Ron laughed at his name.

Long before Draco did anything truly hurtful to them, the golden trio cheered his misfortune and his fear. For example, before we saw Draco & Hermione exchange dialogue, Hermione danced in joy at Draco getting detention. Harry declared him his arch-enemy and worse than Dudley (the cousin who abused him all his life) and threatened him with physical violence (threatening to shove Draco off his broom). Up until that point, the worst thing Draco did was set them up to be caught by Filch. That makes Draco worse than Dudley lol.

Draco could be doing something innocent, not Harry related, like welcoming a new house member or getting sweets from Mama Narcissa and Harry would be glaring daggers at him like he is committing a crime. These three boys bullied each other.

Draco called Hermione a mudblood

Draco never said a word to Hermione and ignored her existence until she dissed his quidditch skills. Also, Sybill and Hermione call Firenze a horse. Firenze saved Harry's life - you think Hermione could show some respect. Dean brazenly asked Firenze to his face if Hagrid breeds them like thestrals. Please note: All of these actions are somehow better than Umbridge calling centaurs half-breeds lol! According to the narrative, "half-breed" is more offensive than HORSE. Hagrid and Minerva use "muggle" as a slur. Remember that WE are the muggles.

If JKR wanted "mudblood" to be meaningful, she should have shown how mugglebornes struggled in the wizarding world. Such as strained relationships with loved ones in the muggle world (Lily & Petunia's relationship is an example) or discrimination in employment. But the wizarding world at large is on mugglebornes' side.

What impact does Draco calling Hermione a "mudblood" have? Her blood status up till that point has been irrelevant and does not disadvantage her. Compared to the bigotry centaurs and muggles face in HP! I don't give a crap about Draco calling Hermione "mudblood" when no other slurs or discriminatory behaviour seem to matter!

She is hardly bothered by it anyway so who cares? I don't. Draco is not an impressive bully when it comes to Hermione. Draco's bullying of Hermione basically boils down to him calling her "mudblood" and hardly anything else. It's hard for Draco to truly be a bully when Hermione never takes him seriously and he never has any real power over her (except when he is on the inquisitorial squad in book 5).

Draco bullied Neville

Everyone mistreats Neville. Including his own housemates and 'Queen Minerva'. That includes Harry and Ron btw. Harry and Ron laugh at Neville in his face and behind his back. In book 1, they basically tell him he should not stick up for himself when he confronts them as they sneak out. Harry thinks Neville is a loser half the time. I thought the golden trio were Neville's friends but after looking at the books I am horrified. My baby boy Neville deserves better than the rotten trio. For example, Harry compares Peter Pettigrew to Neville! Harry sees Peter as pathetic and the first person that comes to mind for Harry is Neville!!! Poor Neville :(. Draco, however, has not been seen or mentioned bullying Neville since book 1.

Draco is mean to Hagrid

Hagrid may act like a disgraceful, blubbering crybaby half the time, but he is a grown-ass man. He's what...50 or 60. Draco is a preteen/teenager. We have seen Hagrid threaten Draco several times. For example, when Draco rightfully calls out Hagrid in book 4 about the (possibly illegal) blast-ended skrewts, Hagrid uses the ferret incident (a horrific case of child abuse) to silence Draco into submission. It's so outrageous for Draco to backtalk and mock Hagrid but it's hilarious when Hagrid, the adult, abuses the child under his care. The HP fandom is insane!

Hagrid endangers children and he is a horrid teacher and should have been fired! And he would have been fired if not for the meddling rotten trio (specifically Harry freaking Potter). This dimwitted jackass knows Hagrid is a bad teacher and drops his subject in book 6 but is willing to ruin the subject for everyone else because he likes him!!! And he is willing to intimidate/bully his friends (especially Hermione) to comply with his views on Hagrid. Harry is extremely selfish and can go rot in hell with Hagrid! If I were Harry's classmate, I would be tempted to punch him myself!

Draco is punished for saying what everyone else was thinking. No one thinks Hagrid is a good teacher. Including the rotten trio! Why does the narrative and fandom coddle Hagrid and treat him like a damn child?! Why is Draco, the student, constantly bashed for Hagrid, the teacher, being incompetent!?

Edit: Hermione disrespects Trelawney in Divination (in the same chapter I believe) but she's seen as a girl boss. She has no need to be there and clearly hates the subject (what a wonderful use for a time tuner). But everyone has a problem with Draco hurting dumb Hagrid's feelings wah.

Draco does mean impressions of other people

So do Ginny (of Fleur) and Ron (of Hermione). At least Draco's impressions are entertaining! Draco is totally the class clown and/or theatre kid type. He has a captivating and dramatic personality. I think he would thrive in the arts. I can literally see him as the male version of Sharpay :)

Draco called Molly porky

Molly is objectively overweight. Draco is a 14 yr old boy throwing out insults (porky is pretty tame if you ask me). JKR, through Harry, goes into unnecessary detail every other sentence about how fat Dudley is whenever Dudley is around. Dudley is a kid. Why should Molly be excluded from the fat character treatment? Plus Harry is actually very shallow when he describes people. He always focuses on how pretty or ugly someone is. Even in serious situations, you can count on Harry describing Fleur as beautiful, Sirius & Tom as dashingly handsome and Snape as hideous. Ron is quick to label Eileen Prince as ugly when the trio discovers she is Snape's mom in book 6. She has done nothing to them but he insults her because of who her son is. Why is it ok for the trio to mock people's looks but Draco calling Molly fat is a crime worthy of physical abuse?

Draco wanted his classmates to die

So did Ron and Harry. Ron says “shame that his mother likes him” when discussing shoving Draco off a glacier. Harry has fantasised about killing and/or torturing Draco/Snape. And guess what! He almost made his fantasies a reality! He nearly murdered Draco with very short-lived remorse and then attempted to use the same spell (+ multiple crucios) against Snape! What a hero :). So full of love and pure goodness, right Dumbledore (gag).

Draco used the cruciatus curse

Attempted cruciatus. Draco said ‘cruci-‘ before Harry somehow yelled out an entire sectumsempra and almost eviscerated him to death. I think that is the only time Draco has attempted to use the crucio in a fight.

When Harry saw Draco being forced to use the curse in a vision, Draco was terrified, right? Harry on the other hand has fantasised about the cruciatus since the moment he learnt about it (he daydreamed about torturing Snape after Fake Moody's class). Harry has used the curse multiple times before and after Draco's use in book 6 and unlike Draco's attempted crucio, Harry's actually hit. Harry sure loves his dark spells :). For a while, sectumsempra and crucio became Harry's new expeliarmus. Harry is called gallant for using the cruciatus in book 7 too by 'Queen' Minerva, how lovely.

Why is Draco demonized more than Harry by the fandom for this curse? Harry used the curse 3 more times than Draco. He hit Bellatrix and the Carrow guy and attempted to crucio Snape twice in book 6 in the SAME FIGHT. Make it make sense!

Draco (& Lucius) almost got Buckbeak put down

Hagrid, as the teacher, should be held responsible - not the animal. But if the ministry is going to claim Hagrid has no fault, then Buckbeak sure as hell needs to be put down. In our world, we put down animals that attack people, especially kids. Once again, Buckbeak is a wild animal so Hagrid's bad teaching is ultimately to blame. If Hagrid won't man up, then sorry Buckbeak! I know several people hate Lucius but the man is being a decent father. Wouldn't you be outraged if your only kid, and heir, was attacked in a class like Draco was? Be real.

Also in the same book, Hermione shows gross indifference to the well-being of Scabbers - “All cats chase rats, Ron!”. Ron should have slapped this inconsiderate bitch. Ron has the patience of a saint. If my friend acted like this, our friendship is through unless sincere apologies are made. I am not even a pet person but Hermione was utterly disgusting in book 3. Ron deserves better than this girl with the emotional capacity of a teaspoon. Ron always wants to kick Norris the cat. The Weasley twins experiment on animals. Hagrid mistreats the animals under his care (eg. the dead flubberworms and poor Fluffy). Transfiguration class is 99% animal experimentation. But boo-hoo, the ministry is killing Buckbeak...why should I care again about some random wild animal when animal cruelty is a staple of HP?

Draco hates Muggleborns

Draco is supposed to be from a family of blood supremacists. Yet he willingly engaged Harry in conversation despite Harry being dressed in unkempt MUGGLE clothes and not knowing who he was. So you can't say Draco spoke to Harry because of his fame (unlike Ron Weasley who deliberately sought out Harry Potter). Harry is the one who judged him because Draco was talking about things that are normal to him, ironically proving Draco’s point — “I really don’t think they should let the other sort in, do you? They’re just not the same, they’ve never been brought up to know our ways” — true. How hilarious.

Anyway, all wizards, so-called light side included, hate/mistreat muggles. But it's ok because JKR wrote it that way. It's ok for wizards to invade muggles' privacy and threaten them. You don't see Draco attacking mugglebornes like this when you meet him. He just thinks wizards should keep to themselves. As a muggle, I approve of this message. I don't want these sadistic wizards near me.

So how did Draco go from this in book 1 to the boy in book 2 declaring "mudbloods are next"? I have no clue. Draco was almost creepy in book 2. I think Draco had a grudge against Hermione and was childishly acting out. Draco is a pampered 12 yr old, what does he know about the horrors of death? Heck, sometimes I wished I was aborted when I was an angsty preteen. Not knowing what exactly I was wishing for myself. Plus, I believe JKR was using Draco as a lazy plot device in book 2.

Plus, I think his negative interactions with the golden trio made him more radicalized as time went on. We don't see Draco calling other students "mudblood", right? I don't recall Draco harassing people like Justin. Draco seems to have a "Hermione" problem, not a "mudblood" problem.

Bonus: James Potter bullied Snape to first impress and then later blackmail Lily, a muggleborne, into dating him. And when said muggleborne girl retaliated...James threatened to hex her. James literally threatened Lily with violence for (barely) attempting to defend Snape. The girl he supposedly has a crush on! James Potter is supposed to be from a muggleborne friendly, light-side family haha. At least Draco was upfront that he despised Hermione. I have read Dramione fics with healthier foundations than canon Jily - not that I like Dramione as a ship. But sure Dramione is the only toxic ship around here!

Please add any other double standards I missed! (Book) Canon Draco fans need to call out the unfair treatment of Draco! Draco is not the evil monster people paint him to be. And you can like him too without warping him into this pathetic, bland, crybaby, gay fanon version. I used to like Fanon Draco when I just started reading HP fanfiction and did not know any better, but book Draco is so much more entertaining, colourful and even charming :)

You don't have to like Draco. But stop giving the heroes passes for the same awful actions.

[chirpsythismorning]

Idk what’s worse, the fact that there are milkvans out there that believe El commissioned Will’s painting, or that a majority of milkvans believe she didn’t, but still think everything Will said to Mike in the van scene applies to how El feels about Mike as well. And honestly, how could they not? Mike looked very happy and emotional hearing Will's words in the van... no shit they're hoping that's how El feels.

But El never called Mike the heart. El never said she needed Mike and always will. Those words coming from Will's feelings for Mike, then being used to inspire Mike to give his monologue to El, was disingenuous bc it was never El’s feelings being responded to in the first place.

��It only works if it comes from you’

That’s the whole problem. It didn’t work bc it was coming from Will, not El.

IF everything Will said applied to El, why not have it come from her?

No, but seriously??

Is s5 just going to open up to El apologizing to Mike for ignoring him after the monologue, followed by her just repeating everything Will said with her own twist and Mike being like cool!! That works for me!

The problem with making the narrative choice to instead focus on Will's feelings at the forefront, only to follow it up with El's identical feelings, does nothing but make the whole thing fall flat.

Instead of seeing this main couple voice their love for each other themselves, I gotta have her brother do it for her?? And only then after he does it, can I see her do it in like a 2.0 version of sorts????

So many milkvans are willing to acknowledge that Mike and El’s dynamic throughout the series is riddled frivolous conflict more than anything, with little to no time dedicated to showing the development that actually matters. They say they wish the show spent more time with them actually face to face acknowledging how they both feel verbally without the constant cloud of some other third party interfering, causing them to have issues. They say that this time though, they think the Duffers will magically pull through for them and go from what they believe is shitty writing to ‘good’ writing, based in terms of how they'll handle Mike and El's relationship in s5...

But that's not realistic on any front, milkvan, byler or otherwise.

And that's a big part of the problem, bc they know the pacing has not been great for them, and they NEED the show to just give them Mike and El so they can be happy, but that's not how you build up suspense for a love story. And dragging out Mike and El any more, would just be a repeat of every other season before. They reached their peak and so they can only down from here. That's kind of the whole point.

One thing to note is that the Duffers always create conflict for the incompatible couple early in a season, so that the audience doesn’t feel too uncomfortable with the idea of considering the other option that’s at the forefront for the rest of the season.

This will ESPECIALLY be the case for byler, bc Will already has home wrecker allegations as it is. And it's also a highly controversial queer ship, and so people are going to be making claims left and right that it’s wrong bc of xyz.

They just wont be able to have byler scenes loaded with romantic tension all season long, more than any other season, and with the story making it more obvious they want us to root for them, while also having Mike and El still be together. And it's simply bc the reality is the Duffers have a record of doing the complete opposite of that.

This is also endgame territory, so there is a serious pressure on the writers part to get their audience to be closer to rooting for byler than denying it even being possible. Meaning they NEED the audience to be watching their first kiss and, for better or worse, be thinking, FINALLY just get it over with already!

Also what's El's supposed to be up to while this is happening? Are we assuming she's just stringing along waiting for Mike to get his shit together? Like Jesus!

El has every right to say her piece and get that shit over with, by episode 1 or 2 at the latest. She could be a focused on Max and her family and friends, which if you'll note also includes Mike and Will, but instead this time without the pressure of her having to hope that something will turn around and suddenly Mike will decide he finally loves her... She doesn't deserve that.

Byler is clearly the route they are taking. If that is the plan, it's time to make this separation so that the audience is finally confronted with viewing Mike and El without the constant rose tinted love at first sight goggles, and instead give them a chance to be their authentic selves.

And I think El, being a character that could barely speak in s1, that her not getting her own voice in this situation is fucking serious. El not being able to say those words to Mike herself, like there's a reason for that. And so when she finally does get to say how she feels, there isn't going to be any room for subtext or misunderstanding, not on the audiences part nor Mike's. El has always been pretty clear about what she wants and I think that will apply in s5 now more than ever.

[stranger-rants]

I see comments like this one all the time, and it just drives me crazy because this is the damage the last season did. This is it! Anything that garnered him any kind of care or concern was pissed on, and not because the narrative revealed to us anything so horrifying we have to change how we perceive Billy. In fact, we learned nothing new about Billy. Nothing. Just Max saying he made her life "a living hell" with absolutely no evidence of what that looked like beyond what we've already seen, and Vecna using his dead likeness to hunt down Max because she felt guilty about him dying.

People who didn't even like Billy went from season three thinking that maybe Billy didn't deserve to die like that and that he deserved better to... This. This ridiculous opinion that a few words on a piece of paper are more meaningful than Billy's own words. Billy's own trauma being put on display. Eleven having an important, meaningful connection to him and being the first person to ever truly show any kind of empathy towards him. Max sitting in solitude on his bed. Us knowing his father was beating him to his father just all of a sudden fighting with Susan and leaving.

This is the damage the structure of the last season did to what they've already built up and it's something I've seen repeatedly done to actors and characters who have exited the show - straight up defamation and practical "gaslighting" for lack of a better term of the fanbase to act like things were realized that weren't and we're the problem if we recognize the incongruencies.

This attitude that because he was "portrayed negatively" (see: Vecna used his image to haunt Max and Max wrote a scathing letter about Billy to draw Vecna out) so Billy's death wasn't meant to "redeem" him just... y'all don't get it.

I don't personally think he needed to be "redeemed" and certainly not like that, but dying was all he could do narratively and apologizing was all he could say before he died. There was no other option because they had written Billy, an abused teenager who no one was going to help, into a corner. However, in ending it that way they showed with one single act that he wasn't The Big Evil Human Villain y'all so badly want him to be, even if it contradicts what The Duffers had envisioned for him. Again, I say again and again, that vision wasn't realized.

The fact that The Duffers double down on him being their "human villain" when Billy was tortured and possessed and killed in one of the most cinematic yet violent scenes wherein he actively fought the thing that was going to kill everyone, is a very poor reflection on them as writers and not on us for empathizing with Billy's situation.

Vecna is not Billy. His portrayal of Billy is not Billy. Max is an unreliable narrator in her second letter because it is literally used as a set up. The fact that you need The Duffers and/or their characters to tell you that you should hate Billy is a problem when all it takes is one simple critical look at what happened to him to realize that's bullshit.

Please, fucking think for yourselves and look at context before using poor writing choices and bad faith scenes as an excuse to ignore what happened to a character. There's actually a difference between what is portrayed and what is intended, and what they intended re: "human villain" blatantly ignores all the suffering they actually portrayed this character going through.

[findafight]

RE Lucas’ book…it’s starting to turn a corner and just become *hilarious* to me how desperate the ST writers are to hammer home that Steve was a jerk in highschool.

Like, I’m genuinely curious if it’s because they’re trying to make his character growth seem more dramatic (unnecessary - he’s one of the few characters who actually has growth) or if it’s an attempt to make his butt-monkey status feel less mean spirited.

Because really, if that bit in Lucas’ book isn’t intended as dramatic irony/Lucas being an unreliable narrator who’s unable to recognise that sport wasn’t the problem or that Steve has grown as a person, or a character beat about Lucas wanting to be independent or something what the fuck is the point? Beyond bitterness that in a show that’s built on uncritically glorifying nerds and 80s nostalgia, the most popular character to come out of it is a rich jock who they repeatedly insist to us is actually very dumb, of course.

But it's also like. The writers themselves don't even give us examples besides what he does and says to Jonathan in S1. And that, while inexcusable, wasn't unprovoked? Like Steve didn't lash out at Jonathan because he was a sad weirdo, he had real personal reasons to specifically want to fight Jon. Doesn't make it right but for sure doesn't demonstrate Steve being an indiscriminate bully.

If they wanted to remind/actually tell us in full show canon that Steve was a horrible nasty person, instead of trying to do that in supplemental material, they could have had Eddie say Steve specifically treated him like shit in highschool (alas, something the fandom seems to think he actually said...) instead of having Eddie say that he made assumptions about Steve and that those were wrong and Eddie changed his mind and thought Steve was a cool guy.

It's super weird because I've read things saying originally Steve was 1) supposed to be more of a cliche 80's jerk boyfriend 2) going to die but Joe Keery is just That Charming and put that into Steve the Duffers and writers decided to switch things around for him, and so maybe these things where people are worried Steve's going to suddenly transform into an ass are like. Leftovers from his original unpublished non canon form? But that wouldn't make sense because these materials came out after S1 and should therefore be based on what we actually got, not development characteristics? Maybe you're right and it is meant to make Steve being a punching bag every seasons less mean spirited.

If it was supposed to be an unreliable narrator moment or a learning sports isn't the problem moment or anything else, I think maybe Will would have been a better character to have doubts about Steve playing basketball again than Lucas. Because he's the kid with the least on screen interaction with Steve and the only one who hasn't witnessed him saving their lives at least once, so would have more reason to doubt his face-turn.

But honestly I think it's just a weird thing where the people writing it cannot grasp that some 1980s hot boy jock would actually be nice. You're totally right that in that the series is BUILT on unquestioningly glorifying nerds and the 80s nostalgia of being one in a heyday of sci-fi classics. And so when the character they originally thought was going to be a jerk and die turned out to be much less of a jerk, decide to do better, and live to become a fan favourite and our specialest boy instead of whoever they projected on the most, there must have been bitterness there. People are so pressed about sports fans being normal humans and not fundamentally flawed because of their interests.

[fizzigigsimmer]

Caligator has such an appeal, because of what they have in common. I'm really hoping Fargo makes Gator more sympathetic and less a jerk. Even Dot was not afraid of him. Just shoved him and said, "shame on you!" Maybe Joe is following Dacre's playbook for Billy.

I am holding out hope for a redemptive arc for Gator too anon! It’s all early speculation at this point but I’ve seen a lot of symbolism and character beats in the first couple of episodes that lead me to believe that at the very least, a break from his father is imminent. It’s like you said, nobody’s afraid of him, because the narrative is going out of its way to show us and tell us that he’s posing. Billy posed too, for many of the same reasons, but unlike Gator, Billy’s narrative didn’t actually care whether or not the audience recognized that or not. Even the Duffers have said that a lot of Billy’s most powerful moments, where you can really see the depth of his emotions and feel sympathy for him as a “real person” and not just a villain, came straight from Dacre.

For the obvious reasons, a lot of people are comparing these roles but for me it just reinforces what I always wish - that Billy had been written by better writers who gave a shit. Because I would have loved to see what Dacre could do with a narrative that cared to show us that Billy was a scared kid, projecting and lashing out, who needed to get out from under his abuser in order to see the world and himself in different perspective. Which is why the thought of the two characters coming together and finding their peace and their freedom really appeals to me.

Thankfully, Fargo is a better show all around than Stranger Things and their character writing has never disappointed me. I am fairly confident that Mr. Jack Skellington over there is going to come into his own and tell his dad where to stick it😉.

I’ve always really appreciated Joe’s love for Billy as a character and his perspective on Billy not just as the narratives antagonist, but as a whole. He’s never been shy about his enthusiasm for it. He’s been pretty vocal the last couple of years about wanting to take on more challenging roles, and I think this is right in line with that. Which is why the backlash he’s getting from some chronically online portions of the internet annoys me so much. lol. If you’re a Joe Keery fan and you aren’t prepared for this man to take on some deeply flawed problematic characters by now you haven’t been paying attention. Also a whole essay could be written on why he can play an actual murderer on a killing spree and receive less hate than when he plays a character like Billy, with very everyday tragic flaws.

Anyway end rant. Ignore me. I just love these characters.

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

I personally hope it’s not a breakup scene only because going by her hair there is a significant time gap, and to think that Mike and El kept going on with their toxic arrangement that both of them were visibly miserable in for another year or even longer, just feels unsatisfying to me for multiple reasons I won’t get into because I could write a novel. I hope it’s some other sort of heart to heart and that when they breakup we get it pre time skip

other heart to hearts it could be that aren’t necessarily a breaking:

it could be a brief chat between friends in the midst of everything that’s going on that doesn’t have huge plot importance

it could be them having a moment together to show the audience they are still friends now and actually better off this way. it could even be something like el was the one to breakup with him and this is him finally opening up about his fault in the mess that was their relationship now that he’s ready to talk about it

it could be mike could be coming out to her or hinting at it for the first time if we wanna go with it’s a BIG moment

mike and her could be talking about him and will and maybe he’s opening up about his feelings, putting El in the traditional Will position of the advice giver/love counselor which would be a cute parallel

lots of possibilities I suppose

I think the Duffers are sort of caught between a rock and a hard place. I don't think it was their initial plan to have a big time skip. It wasn't even their original intent to have a 5th season. Between that and the actors aging, they sort of have to have a time skip.

I think the relationship continuing could work because of them both being preoccupied with everything that happened. At the very least, El may not have had her heart in the relationship ever since Max "died." They may have just been going through the motions ever since they got back to Hawkins. It wouldn't be a toxic relationship at that point, in the sense that it brings out the worst in them, but, instead, something more like Karen and Ted where they're technically together, but they don't actually do anything romantic anymore.

This conversation could well be El deciding to cut Mike loose, and they have a much more gentle breakup than they did in season 3. This could work as an avenue for Mike to bring up the painting, prompting El to get confused and mentioned that Will never even let her see it.

Imagine them having a conversation where Mike tells her everything Will claimed she felt about Mike.

"That's beautiful, Mike. I can see why that finally got you to tell me you loved me. But I never said any of that."

"But then why did Will say you did? Why would say it if it wasn't true?"

"I didn't say it wasn't true, Mike. I'm just saying it wasn't my painting. It wasn't my feelings."

Cue sexuality crisis.

[thewingedwolf]

wait i’m gonna be so annoying and have a final thoughts here

the aesthetic & main romance has just really fallen off. they are incapable of sticking the landing in the third act & while they still have some good looks, i think there’s a certain level of playing it too safe (see Kate’s wardrobe!!!!!) and also just, bizarre makeup choices that were a bit distracting.

they also just don’t know how to keep a character waiting for their romance while building that character up over several arcs. kind of a bad trait to have for a tv show?? 😭😭 like, i love them with all my heart, but everyone has said that eloise, benedict, & colin have felt so confused at points as characters, like the writers didn’t know where to go with them. they’re just waiting for their romance instead of like, growing.

Colin was the male lead what do we even know about him beyond his inability to interact with a woman without projecting onto her.

once again the milfs outsold, agatha and violet are the best thing about this series and i don’t care how much i like violet’s lil thing with agatha’s brother, i want those two gossipy old milfs to kiss sloppy style.

it’s too goddamn short, i think this wasn’t a problem in s1 or qc bc it’s the First season so there’s not as many characters to follow but they keep introducing all these other characters that take space away from a) The Main Couple and b) The Bridgertons As A Family, and those are the draws of the series!! it’s too much for only 8 episodes, what happened to 12-18 episodes for high budget or cable shows, if they had these people on like Normal tv contracts they wouldn’t have such a hard time scheduling and have these long ass waits between seasons Either, im tired of this and i blame the duffer brothers and i want those two nerds hunted for sport.

also hyacinth and gregory are getting SO OLD OMG HURRY UP 😭😭😭

i think they did a better job this season with folding the siblings in together but it feels disjointed from s2. anthony & kate specifically feel very oddly thrown in there and idgi. i loved seeing the bridgertons using calling times as an excuse for Group Hangs, and i loved the way John pointed this out to Francesca. i liked that the ending with benedict where he’s realizing he’s the oldest still left at home with two like, toddler siblings and feeling unhappy with it, but bc they struggle with incorporating all the siblings together, we really lose that thread from last season between him & anthony that could have given benedict a way to explore his sexuality in a slutty way while also giving anthony something to do & not drop the art school thing. however, this is all detailed and would take a lot of time and they only have eight episodes. why. do 13-18 or im gonna start sending death threats to ceos. for legal reasons that’s a joke haha.

i do think in the few kathony scenes we got, they nailed the dynamic that she is the world’s most put upon eldest daughterson and he needs to be institutionalized. pls put jonathan bailey and simone ashley in another thing together so i can see them together again. this can’t be the end. be the next tom hanks and meg ryan please. he george clooney and julia roberts. i’m on my knees here.

am i allowed to say i’m glad we got a long devirginizing scene like in s1 & qc but also we did not see Nearly enough of those two fucking. more than kathony but imo still not on the level of the other two. also you could write an essay here about the sex politics of this show. i will refrain and say Is This Not The Pervert’s Show?? Can we Please get better pandering????

i think no one can handle a big cast like shonda not even her hand picked teams. qc handled having a host of characters so much better. early grey’s is really great at this. htgawm is good at this. u can tell what season she was really In That Writer’s Room. shonda pls get back in the writer’s room i need something as emotionally devastating as “meredith i’m so sorry” “you must be the woman whose screwing my husband” i need sexy like the “teach me” scene but with the freedom of streaming to get freaky with it, this cast WANTS to deliver but netflix & these writers are NOT up to the challenge!!!

i love bi benedict. even if nothing else comes of this i didn’t think they’d genuinely have benedict get intimate with and acknowledge being attracted to a man. genuinely really jazzed about that. but they Have said they want to explore his ~fluidity more and there’s so many scenarios that could be, i have no idea what the hell they mean by that askksjd. crossdressing sophie, genderbent to solomon, a trans sophie/solomon of some persuasion, im excited to see where they go!

BI FRANCESCA. MICHAELA STIRLING. PEOPLE ARE HATING BUT YOU HAVE MY ATTENTION. esp bc you could do a michaela that has like, resigned herself to a life of never feeling love only to fall in love At Her Cousin’s Wedding so well with this. these three, michaela francesca john, are gonna break my HEART i’m READY for it!

i want the resolution to one of the gay couples to include brimsley & reynolds encouraging charlotte to cure society of homophobia somehow. if we can do this with racism we can do it with homophobia. why the hell not.

listen to me. listen closely. are you listening. if we don’t get lesbian eloise what are we even fucking doing here. enough fucking around. give me a real sign this is all going somewhere. i am no longer asking.