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dexjarxenoengage · 2 months ago

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Royal Archetype Symbolism:

This will be major spoilers for the endgame of Metaphor Refantazio from 9/24 onwards. Do not read this if you don’t want spoilers from here on or the entire game for that matter.

The Royal Archetypes are the final Archetypes to be unlocked in the game. They are some of the strongest Archetypes in the game and are exclusive to the respective party members. I.e., Royal Warrior for Strohl, Royal Knight for Hulkenburg, etc.

With the exception of The Prince (which is unlocked automatically and is their own Archetype separate from the Seeker), the Royal Archetypes are essentially Prime Personas. To give an example, Orpheus Telos from Persona 3 FES onwards is a reference to Prime Personas in Persona 2, which serve as mid tier evolutions for the Personas. Royal Warrior, among others, are the “Prime Persona” counterparts to their initial forms.

Furthermore, the Royal Archetypes requires the Max Rank 8 in the bonds of your allies.

I mainly want to talk about the requirements for each Royal Archetypes and how they take after to the Followers of the respective Followers that embodies said Archetypes:

This includes the following:

• Samurai + Warlord = Royal Warrior

• Paladin + Dark Knight + Elemental Master = Royal Knight

• Ninja + Dragoon + Tycoon = Royal Thief

• Persona Master + Trickster = Royal Masked Dancer

• Devil Summoner + Soul Hacker = Royal Summoner

• Destroyer + Martial Artist = Royal Berserker

So based on these requirements needed to unlock the Royal Archetypes not named Prince, you notice how each of the Archetypes are the final forms that are linked to many followers of the game. Warlord is Bardon, Elemental Master is Gallica, Dragoon and Tycoon are Neuras and Brigitta respectively, Trickster is Alonzo, and Martial Artist is Catherina.

Soul Hacker is an interesting case; while the Seeker Archetype is embodied by More, Will (the Protagonist) is the one who awoken to the Archetype. And even then, it makes sense once you realize that More is the deceased King Hythlodaeus V who is the father of the Prince Will. Ergo, Will inherited the Seeker Archetype from his father.

This post’s main purpose is to show how each character foils to the Followers who have the Archetypes that ties to the requirements for the Royal Archetypes. Be it their tribes, personalities, role in their stories and roles in Will’s ascension to the throne, etc.

⁃ Strohl and Bardon; the way of the Royal Warrior’s sword:

◦ Bardon’s Archetype embodiment is the Commander linage (where Warlord stems from), which focuses on strategy by hitting elemental weaknesses and bypassing resistance via Almighty attack, buffing party members and attacking advantage of the front and back rows. This fits perfectly with Strohl being the main strategist of the party. Starting with the Heismay Arc until halfway through the Altabury Arc, Strohl has been shown being the one to plan out each strategy Will and Co. have for the Tournament for the Throne.

◦ Both Strohl and Bardon deal with the burden of their respective countrymen in their own ways. Strohl’s story resolves around wishing to avenge the death of his parents and the victims of Halia (a village that was destroyed by a Human attack). Bardon is a Guardsman for the village of Martira and becomes their leader after the events of exposing the true culprit behind the kidnappings (Joanna, not Heismay).

◦ Strohl’s follower story focuses on his efforts to help the survivors of the village, an owe to his creed as a noble to help people in need. While Bardon must face his own struggles in helping the people of Martira. Later in Bardon’s Bond, we are tasked with fighting the same Human that we had to escape from the butt before Martira shares the same fate as Halia.

◦ Both Strohl and Bardon are good people, but quick to anger. When all is said and done, they bare a great burden to the people that they feel they failed to protect. Be it the victims of Halia or the people in Martira who suffered from the kidnappings Joanna caused. And by the end, they learn not to shoulder their burdens alone as they both make their deceased predecessors’ proud.

⁃ Hulkenburg and Gallica; wisdom of the Royal Knight’s shield:

◦ Hulkenburg is of the Knight Archetype, while Gallica (while she can’t fight, is still considered to be a party member) is of the Mage Archetype. Hulkenburg’s introduction in the party is when Synthesis Skills (where Archetypes grant power to another Archetype for a team attack) is unlocked. Later stages of the Mage Archetype have skills that better the usages of Synthesis Skills (Wizard’s Arcane Unity and Elemental Master’s Magic Link). Synthesis Skills are about teamwork and the bonds of friendship, as well as strategies in the Archetypes you use.

◦ Both Hulkenburg and Gallica are devoted in their mission to save the prince, and they are both unwavering in their loyalties to those they devoted their power and trust to. However, the truth behind the prince’s identity and the true culprit behind the curse alludes them. The Prince was Will all along and was cursed by Rella, not Louis. And also, both of them knew Grius/Alces longer than anyone else and are heavily impacted by his death and the fight against his undead self.

◦ Even after learning the truth among other truths, their devotion to the true prince (Will) only became stronger than it ever was before. Hulkenburg is delighted to know that Will was the Prince the whole time and that everything she did wasn’t in vain. And Gallica learns that the memory of her and Will being long time friends was just a fabrication. This doesn’t stop Gallica from being Will’s friend and would continue to devote herself to him of her own volition.

◦ Beyond that, they both have self deprecation issues as far as their roles are concerned. Gallica has been shown very early into the game that she wishes to help Will as much as possible and feels regret when he’s in danger. And Hulkenburg doubts her role as a knight for not being able to save the prince. Will seems to be an emotional button for them as well. Hulkenburg turns into a grieving mess when the original prince is found dead during the events of 9/24. And when Will dies by crushing his vessel to prevent his second Human transformation at Louis’s hand, poor Gallica is left crying over his fresh corpse.

◦ Overall, in their own ways, both Gallica and Hulkenburg have Will as their emotional guide because the two of them are devoted to him in their own ways.

⁃ Heismay, Neuras and Brigitta; the Royal Thief’s walk of atonement:

◦ Heismay, Neuras and Brigitta are interesting combination of characters to talk about considering that all of their Archetypes play wildly different roles. A Thief, a Gunner and a Merchant. How exactly do all of these Archetypes work to fit with the requirements for the Royal Thief archetype?

◦ It’s not necessarily the gameplay that tied them together. It’s their respective roles in who they are as people. What do I mean by this? It’s simple, Heismay, Neuras and Brigitta are all adult followers. And as adults, they have their own personal burdens that ends with them resolving to ensure that the younger generation doesn’t pay the price for the old ones’ mistakes.

◦ Both Heismay and Brigitta are both cynical about the world around them as a result of their backstories: Heismay lost his child to a Paripus riot, while Brigitta was a street urchin who became cynical of the ways of the world. It’s thanks to Will’s actions that both of them begin to find hope and walk out of their respective dark paths.

◦ Heismay and Neuras are both the only known characters in the team that actually drink. Neuras has been drunk a few times, while Heismay is very careful with how much alcohol he consumes. He only became drunk when he ate the Dragon’s Tear (not that he could have known its properties until was too late).

◦ On a more serious note, while both of their sidequests and stories resolve around certain items (Heismay’s son’s remains and the Relics), both of their Bond stories end with a resolution regarding them. Heismay decides to turn his son’s urn into a necklace with Eupha’s help, while Neuras destroys the relics after realizing their world destroying properties. So in a way, both Heismay and Neuras learn from the past so that the future won’t be affected by it later on.

◦ To me, Heismay serves as the adult figure of the group that Grius initially served. Some may say that Grius’s death unintentionally undermines that message of equality between the races as the team loses their only Rhoag representative. While I can understand the sentiment, Grius’s spirit remains with the cast through other characters like Maria. Heismay and Neuras serves as the adult figures for the team twice over, and Brigitta, while not a party member, is a fellow Rhoag that knew Grius.

◦ Heismay finds similar themes with Neuras and Brigitta through the fact that they are the adult figures that fills the void Grius left behind. His spirit is with us through various ways, and it shows here.

⁃ Junah and Alonzo: the Royal Masked Dancer’s hidden depths:

◦ Junah and Alonzo both are of the Nidia tribe, often deem by other tribes as deceiving, lying scum. And it’s not hard to see why they get the reputation. Both Junah and Alonzo both use deception in their own way, but they both do it for greater good.

◦ Junah is acting as an undercover agent on Louis’ side, working to find a way to break the prince’s curse. While Alonzo uses his deception to help Will, acting as the future King’s intelligence advisor. Both also have adoptive family members of different races that ultimately die in their stories (For Junah, Rella who is an Ishika, and Alonzo’s mother who was a Paripus). And Junah and Alonzo’s actions going forward are in their memories.

◦ Their respective Archetypes in Masked Dancer and Faker both have final forms that serve as a reference to the Persona games: Persona Master takes after mainly Persona 3 and 4, while Trickster mainly takes after 5. Persona Master’s main Synthesis Skill is shown to be reference to both 3 and 4 via the Tarot Cards, the Invokers that SEES uses (which are guns) and cut ins. While Trickster is based on what P5’s Joker is often called in the story: “A Trickster.”

◦ Junah and Alonzo both aspire to be beacons of hope to those around them in their own ways and are good people at the end of the day. Junah’s singing is what gives her hope, and she wishes to spread that hope to others. While Alonzo uses his lies to help the people around him, even if they deem him a “parasite.”

⁃ Eupha and Will (son of More): the Royal Summoner’s journey through life:

◦ I have already made a post on how the Seeker linage being the prerequisite to evolve the Summoner Archetype is fitting with Eupha’s growing love for Will throughout their bond: https://www.tumblr.com/jaredxenoengage/765352399442526208/i-love-that-euphas-archetype-summoner-requires but let’s see if there is more to it than that.

◦ The Seeker Archetype, as we know, is the Archetype that is cultivated by More/King Hythlodaeus V, who is Will’s father. Will awakens to the Seeker Archetype linage first, and not the Prince. So while More isn’t a party member, Will is. So technically speaking, out of all of the Royal Archetype requirements, this makes Eupha the only one that needs a linage that was awaken by a fellow Party Member.

◦ Will (knowing that he is the Prince) and Eupha had both lost their parents, obviously. And both of them have ties with the greater lore of the entire game as a whole, which depicts stories of the old world that was once humankind (which is what Eldas are). Eupha has a sworn duty to fight alongside the Dragon God: Eht, Dragons are made of pure Magla. With the revelation that Will is the Archetype of the Prince given a human form, he too is a being a pure Magla. Which is why Eupha was able to speak through his mind during her introduction. Just as Eupha is meant to fight alongside the beloved god, Eupha also finds herself fighting alongside another being made of Magla. This plot point compliments itself further with the Dragon Trial’s (which were made for the protagonist) in mind.

◦ As for More, it’s the same thing as Will, he is the Archetype form of King Hythlodaeus V who was killed by Louis at the start of the story. How do Eupha and More foil each other? The main difference between them is that Hythlodaeus lost hope because of the death of his wife and the lost of his son. He sought his own death and used the Royal Magic in hopes that he could make someone into a better king than he was. While Eupha was convinced her whole life that her life was meant to be sacrificed for the sake of her village. Eupha eventually breaks free from this mindset and awakens to her Archetype. Eupha did what More could not in her lifetime, find hope and a reason to live.

◦ The Elite forms of the Summoner and Seeker Archetypes are both named after the Atlus related games: Devil Summoner and Soul Hacker respectively.

◦ And it’s just Eupha herself says in game, she, like Will has the power to journey into the unknown world. An unknown future. Will had the power to awaken this resolve in her, and with it, blossom potential love between the two.

⁃ Basilio and Catherina; the Paripus’ Royal Berserker soul:

◦ Basilio and Catherina are both Paripus with rough dispositions on the surface, but both prove to be earnest people. They both initially had reasons to oppose the protagonist at first; Basilio was working with Louis, the one who killed the king. While Catherina, who is a fellow candidate. has no hard feelings towards Will, but she wants to become Queen to help the future of the Paripus. Both eventually see the folly of what they were doing and eventually turn coat (Basilio joins the team after his brother’s death, while Catherina drops out of the race because her folks were crossing a line she wouldn’t have).

◦ The Berserker and Brawler Archetypes both revolve around physical strike attacks and dishing out as much damage as possible. Notice how Berserker doesn’t use HP like Brawler does. Basilio may be of the Berserker Archetype, but when he is calm, Basilio is a lot more insight than it would seem. As he is the first person to truly question if what Louis is doing is truly right for him and his brother, and the future of those that can’t fend for themselves. Catherina is much more reckless in comparison. And it takes seeing how her race to become Queen becomes a risk for Paripus to go the extreme to get ahead to see that what she is doing might bring more harm than good.

◦ Even their Follower Stories are mainly different with some similarities being that it’s about Basilio and Catherina stopping their fellow tribesmen from crossing further lines. At least Catherina was able to convince followers to walk down a better path eventually, but Basilio isn’t as fortunate. As he was forced to put Vinca down.

⁃ Will; the prince’s path to be king:

◦ 9/24 reveals that Will is a living breathing Archetype created from the Prince’s wish to travel the world and lead the kingdom to peace. The Seeker Archetype was the first Archetype to awaken in Will. It embodies the very essence of this game’s themes to explore the unknown without fear.

◦ As Will journey continues, and he eventually learns who he really is, the Prince Archetype embodies the Ruler Archetype from Carl Jung’s 12 Archetypes (which is what the aforementioned powers are based on). And based on Carl Jung’s take on the Ruler Archetype, it also falls in line with the themes of what makes a good king.

◦ In contrast to his father; as the previous king, gave up on his hope that he had for the Kingdom. As such, by leaving most of the circumstances in Forden’s hands, Louis lost all faith in him and decides to kill him. Will becomes king and defeats Louis by staying true to his ideals.

◦ Although the Prince Archetype is its own Archetype, it takes after the Seeker Archetype in many ways. It has the same One Handed Sword usage, the same Hero Passive in Cooperative Chase, and has the most Synthesis access in the game. However, Seeker doesn’t have Synthesis Synergy with the Summoner Archetype (ironic given that Will and Eupha are the most romantic coded relationship in the game). Eupha’s Arc contains the most truth about the old world in all of Euchronia. We get the full truth about the old world after Will awakens to his true Archetype, which can perform Synthesis Skills and grant them between all Archetypes. This is when Will and Eupha’s bond is at its strongest.

The fact that so much intention to detail that comes with the Archetypes and the Followers is the type of writing talent that I have come to expect from Atlus.

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dexjarxenoengage · 3 days ago

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Metaphor: Refantazio is my GOTY of 2024, and is slowly becoming one of my favorite video games of all time. As per such, I’m going to be a tad bit defensive and biased towards its story beats and characters (both of the good and bad). One such arguments that I want to address is the morality of its antagonists. More specifically, Joanna, the Holy woman responsible for the kidnappings in Martina. And compare them to Zorba, Louis’s right hand man.

This post is NOT for the sake of defending the actions of both of these characters. This is post for dissecting their actions in the story, but more importantly, how the characters react to the actions of these two antagonists.

Naturally, there will be spoilers. I can’t talk about Zorba without spoiling the fact that he survives the battle at the Grand Cathedral. Zorba’s survival plays a big factor in Forden’s death, Fidelio’s death and Basilio joining the team, as well as the Prince’s death and Will becoming the Prince himself in response. These actions, as well as the fact that he is devoted to a madman who plans on turning everyone into a human monster, are the things I will be judging and analyzing in this post.

From: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/MetaphorReFantazio

“Joanna in the Martira arc is portrayed with a degree of sympathy and is treated as such in-universe by the heroes. However, the extent of her malice, despite her tragic backstory, led many players to struggle with sharing the party's sentiments. Joanna has been feeding innocent townspeople—including children—to a monster, driven by her desperation to feel like she had regained her lost child. Her backstory is undeniably tragic: her mixed-race child was murdered by a nanny fueled by superstition and prejudice. But the sheer cruelty of her actions—sacrificing innocents ultimately for revenge—makes her difficult for many players to empathize with. While the party does not condone her crimes and instead directs their anger toward the societal forces that pushed her to such extremes, they remain strikingly kind to someone who inflicted the same tragedy she experienced upon countless others, with only Strohl really pushing back in response but ultimately viewing her the same way as everyone else in the end. Though Joanna is ultimately executed for her actions and it is heavily implied that her descent into madness was driven by Melancholia corruption—born of her regret and a sudden moment of clarity after the defeat of her "child." For some players, the level of sympathy Joanna receives can be jarring, given the scale of her atrocities. This is in complete opposition to Zorba, who — while his actions are indeed monstrous — actually deserves more sympathy.”

The reason why I make this is not questioning whether or not Joanna and Zorba deserve sympathy or not. This post is meant to be a question of why Will and the others feel the way they do to both of them. So in order to illustrate my point, I need to explain the crimes these characters commit and how this weighs on the Kingdom at large, as well as the characters themselves. Personal grudges IMO play a huge factor in this post.

- The weight of crimes

As far as crimes are concerned behind both Joanna and Zorba, we need to look at how it affects everyone involved: both the characters themselves and the kingdom.

Due to Zorba’s long term presence in the main story in comparison to Joanna, I have to talk about him first.

Zorba is responsible for using the Grand Cathedral to steal the Royal Scepter to give to Louis. Taking into account what Louis planned on doing with Royal Scepter, and why he sent Zorba to get in the first place, as well as Zorba being the only one who knew Louis’s endgame from the start, Louis’s on turning the nation into Human Monsters has been his plan from the start.

And this is without mentioning his “Day of Calamity” that he was likely planning on by Louis’s order. Zorba reanimated the Louis brought to the Royal Funeral with the intention of it destroying all of Grand Trad, and young and old people in it besides.

Why is this important? Because, to the people that say Zorba deserved more sympathy in comparison to Joanna, forget that Zorba was going to unleash an undead Human out on a city with many people in it (including the young Maria who had just lost her father, Grius).

Speaking of Grius, this adds to the list of “personal” sins on Zorba’s list. Zorba reanimated Grius (who died at Louis’s hand) to use him to attack Will, Strohl, Gallica, and soon-to-be new ally Hulkenburg. All of whom have personal connections to Grius, and all were grief-stricken and powerless to save him.

Even if Zorba did not survive the battle at the Cathedral, the dude already has a lot of blood on his hands. And this without taking into account what other sins he may have committed while under Louis’s service, we don’t know when exactly did he became devoted to Louis.

(Of course, this isn’t to say that Zorba’s reanimating powers are in and of itself sinful. But Zorba has used this power to not only attack innocent people, but use Grius to attack our heroes who were close to them. To use another character as an example, Veyle from Fire Emblem Engage has the power to revive people as Zombies, but would rather not use that power to hurt people (among other reasons). Having that power and using it to hurt people is what makes that power evil.)

Within the time we had with Zorba until he was revealed to have been alive all along, Zorba has helped attack the Cathedral to further Louis’s plans for ending the world. Has used a friend to attack his other friends. And finally, was going to send a human to destroy Grand Trad, which would have resulted in the causalities of many young and old people alike. And people expect me to believe that Zorba deserves sympathy?

Now we look at Joanna in comparison. Joanna has indeed been sending many people (especially children) to gallows that use the jaws of a baby human out of hatred towards the world for the death of her child.

Why is this important? Because the scale of crimes IMO is just important as the crime itself, maybe even more from a certain perspective. Joanna’s actions, from what we know, is locked exclusively behind Martina. The only time people that aren’t necessarily connected to Martina are the people who just happened to be unfortunate to be at the wrong place at the wrong time (as Klinger can attest to). And the only action that affects the party (outside of the fact that Strohl hates humans because of the destruction of his home, which is another personal sin on Zorba to add to the list) is Heismay, who is a recent addition. And even then, as we will get into later, Heismay can’t bring himself to truly hate Joanna.

Zorba’s actions on the other hand were clearly affecting a wide range of characters and the world of Metaphor at large through his actions; both morally and personally. For the entire party, Zorba is responsible for briefly turning the recently deceased Grius against them (who is with the person responsible for killing him). For Strohl, Zorba’s actions was going to repeat an event that has haunted him all his life, not helped by the fact that he an devote ally to the person responsible for both Halia’s destruction, and Grius’s death. For Hulkenburg, it’s also personal, outside of Grius’s reanimation, Hulkenburg sees Zorba as betrayal towards the oath of knighthood (something which is big deal for any story involving knighthood).

- The reason for said crimes and the response to it:

The thing that the people who play this game have a problem is how the party responds to these characters who have done these things. Zorba was discriminated his whole life for being Mustari/Clemar hybrid (not only are Mustari are the second most hated race in Metaphor, second only to Elda, but Hybrids are often mistreated as well, as seen with Maria’s Social Link). Not helped by the fact that many people were disgusted by his ability to reanimate (not that I blame for that). The reason for why he is so devoted to Louis is because he didn’t judge him for his race or his abilities.

Zorba is hated by the party (especially the starting party members). All of whom, during their encounter in the cathedral call him out for his hypocrisy (such as when the characters uses a portrait of Louis to get Zorba out of their way, it’s fine to disrespect the dead, but bad if Louis is insulted), but also refuses to excuse his actions just because of his suffering.

• Zorba (talking to Will): “Surely an Elda like you know what it’s like! To be an outcast, to be every fool’s scapegoat! They call us “lesser tribes”! They loathe us! Their speeches of tribal harmony mean nothing when every day, they cheat and abuse us! Do you think I didn’t believe, once? That I never dared to hope my efforts made me equal? Then I heard exactly what they think of us… “The lessers are expendable. Send them to the fore and they shall be our living shields” They doomed us and laughed as we died.

• Hulkenburg: “But these atrocities make you no better than your oppressors!”

We move on to Joanna, who lost her child (who was also a hybrid and illegitimate child) to the nurse who was sent to look after her child. All the while, even her family was glad the half blooded child died. And finally, her husband was ratted off of Martina, leaving her alone. Let’s see how the characters react to her story in the midsts of her heinous crimes…

• Strohl (who, along with the others, have witnessed Homo Jaluzo devour Morris (he deserved it): “This is your child? It just devoured a man! All I see is a mindless monster!”

• Joanna (who is enraged by this response to her “child.”): And a monster is all I see…when I upon the world! People are beasts of fear and superstition. Murderers without remorse. I have done nothing they’ve not done to me. Abominations… They are the unnatural. They deserve to die. They should all be so glad to nourish my child. My dear… sweet… child.

• Hulkenburg: A mother’s love should nurture. But this is beyond the pale…

• Strohl: And you? Do you not condemn her? She kidnapped children, murdered them in cold blood, and would see you blamed for it!

• Heismay: In truth… I know this woman’s pain, all too well. In the name of her child, she was willing to turn against the entire world. Behind her atrocities… I see the devotion of a bereaved parent. You found yourself unjustly in a terrible darkness… and I struggle to blame you. Burying your own child is unbearable. Grief and madness fill the gaps where love had been. But my eyes were opened. These people helped me see. The only way to beat the darkness… is to confront it! Step by meagre step… You must walk back to our reality! Look upon that… And see true that it is not the child you once loved!

The main difference between Joanna and Zorba’s actions and parts in the story is how the characters react to them. Strohl, as the Human Slayer is naturally appalled by Joanna’s actions and the human himself, and ask for Heismay’s response to this. Heismay, who was also a victim of the death of a child in a world filled with discrimination. Heismay calmly understands why Joanna would take the path she did while still making it clear that what she’s doing is wrong and she needs to face reality and accept her child’s death.

Heismay knows full well that, in another world, Heismay could have been the kidnapper everyone deemed him to be. I think that’s why Heismay doesn’t fully condemned Joanna to the extent that could (and perhaps, should) have.

- The aftermath of crime

Another crucial factor in how Zorba and Joanna are treated by the characters in the story is the aftermath of their respective defeats. Zorba outright ignores Hulkenburg’s point of calling out Zorba for his actions. Joanna, on the other hand, comes to see the error of her ways. In fact, IMO, this is the most important aspect about this discussion. Joanna admits her wrongs and makes the choice to atone, Zorba did not.

After Joanna is defeated, she makes good on her initial promise to give Martina’s support to the Prince if Will and the others succeeded in solving the case. By offering up her head for the Exhibition for the Brave… As well as clearing Heismay’s name.

While we are on this topic, the reason for why the party are even in Martira to begin with. They wanted to turn in a criminal for the Tournament for the Throne in order to gain the political support needed to get Louis’s attention so that the team can find a way to break the curse over the Prince. So accepting Joanna’s atonement is the right thing to do from a mission/political standpoint, not just a moral standpoint.

And another thing, the fact Joanna kept her word. If Joanna wanted to, as Strohl pointed out, she could use this chance to escape and continue to cause trouble elsewhere. But Joanna stood true to the promise she made to the very end. And thanks to this action of choosing to trust Joanna’s word, the party is one step closer to defeating Louis.

Joanna vs Zorba

• Will: The rumours painted Heismay as a criminal, but I chose to believe in him. I want to extend Joanna the same grace. A country where no one’s future is written in stone… If that’s our goal, then this is a chance we have to take.

Gallica may think Will is too kind here, which is probably what most of the fandom on this moment may think, but just remember that Will was going to kill Louis to break the curse. He’s not as soft as Gallica (or the audience) may think.

- Sympathy (or lack thereof) for the wicked:

I have seen the Martira Arc plenty of times, along with Joanna’s execution, and I wouldn’t say the party was overtly sympathetic towards Joanna like people think. The only person who was the closest to that point is Heismay and Will. Strohl only is more lenient with Joanna because she made the choice to repent (and again, she kept her word when should could’ve gone against it).

And again, thanks to this choice to atone, the Prince is one step closer in being king and defeating Louis.

Now again, we go back to Zorba, who had been revealed to be alive all along, helping Louis’ goals in the shadows, during which, he has transformed his body into a Human. What does Zorba do not long after he is hinted to be alive? Continue to help Louis’s plan, ensuring that Forden dies (not that he didn’t have it coming). When Louis is about to kill a Church family in order to get the party to come clean about the Prince’s survival, he causally watches and mocks Fidelio’s death.

Afterwards, Zorba is directly responsible for the death of the original Prince, and had Will given up and not accepted being the Prince’s Archetype, this act would given Louis the final victory. On top of that, there was another corpse found prior to the reveal of the Prince’s death.

Again, this is why I can’t agree with the people that say Zorba deserved more sympathy. When you think about it, not only does Zorba’s actions affect them personally alongside the entire Kingdom, but Zorba lasted longer than Joanna for his actions to affect the story itself. I’m not saying that the characters shouldn’t have tried to make some effort to get him to understand what he was doing was wrong, like with Joanna, but you can tell how much his actions affected them.

And it’s not to say that the others don’t sympathize with him to some extent, once we get to his final fight, the others are horrified to see his human-mutated hand. And after the fight, Basilio (last party member, and also knew him from their time with Louis) understood Zorba and showed no anger towards him. And once Zorba does die by his own hand, which the boys did try to save him, the others sadly noted that he chosen his path. Even at the end, when the characters do try to understand him, unlike Joanna, he was beyond saving. Or rather, he didn’t want to be saved by anyone who wasn’t named Louis. Hulkenburg, in comparison to their battle at the Cathedral, does commend Zorba for his loyalty, even if it was towards a madman.

To the people that say that Zorba deserved more sympathy, did Zorba himself made an effort to understand what he did was wrong like Joanna did? No. Was there any implications that Zorba was being manipulated by Melancholia? Given that he showed no signs of calming down or changing his mindset after being beaten TWICE, I would say no.

This whole section may seem like a contradiction of us questioning the sympathy level of these two characters. Again, let me remind you, this was a question on the morality of the characters themselves. Every party member may be flawed people who also have anxiety in their hearts, but remember that they gained their Archetypes by learning to channel those feelings in a healthy manner.

All of them do have a strong sense of justice, if handled differently for each character. And it’s not like having a personal reason for standing against evil is bad thing, considering that’s the reason Strohl awakened to his Archetype in the first place.

You can question the characters all you want, everyone will have different answers compared to mine. But Strohl and the others only showed grace to Joanna because she chose to atone for her sins, whereas Zorba did not. These characters are about fairness, and IMO, they did well on that front.

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