#Greek women vs Greek goddesses

[jeannereames]

Hello! Dropping by to say that I’ve been loving how much attention DwtL has been getting and I’m devouring the new Cambridge Companion edition on ATG lol. Super interesting stuff, and it’s explained in a way that makes sense to someone like me who has no official humanities research background—and thank you for always entertaining our questions :)

A little unrelated to ATG, and more so an overall question. Something that has always intrigued me was the dichotomy between revered goddesses in Ancient Greek religious practices, and the way the society treated its own women. (Athena = goddess of intelligence, among others = super derogatory attitudes toward women’s intellectual capacity?) Not limited to Greece only, of course: so many ancient cultures worshipped female deities, but suppressed their own women. I’m wondering if you had any theories for why this phenomenon persisted, because it’s been something I was mystified by for a while now.

First, thanks. I'm glad that more people seem to be discovering the novels, and apparently liking them well enough. And YES, the Companion is a great new addition. I'm especially pleased that Cambridge decided to price it such that more people can actually afford to buy it, besides academic libraries. That was one big problem with the prior one (2003) from Brill.

Down the decades (centuries) a lot of folks have asked your question! It’s one reason I point out that the status of goddesses (and heroines) shouldn’t be taken as indicative of the actual power or even agency of women in ancient Greece—although that also varied from place to place.

Time for my periodic reminder: ancient Greece wasn’t a single country. It was a series of independent city-states. Each of those belonged to one of three major (and a couple minor) linguistic dialects with their own unique social and religious traditions.

E.g., there’s not really such a thing as “ancient Greece.” That was a post-Persian War construct that owed more to propaganda than reality.* “The Greeks” fought each other more than they fought anybody else until quite late.

It’s very easy, especially at an intro-level, to accidentally conflate Athens with ancient Greece. Partly, it’s an evidence problem. Most of our evidence about ancient Greece comes from ancient Athens.

When it comes to women, this results in a particularly negative picture of female agency in pre-Hellenistic/pre-Roman Greece. Women in Athens were particularly disempowered, both (te) legally and (kai) actually. Let me explain that last.

Legal power = what a society ostensibly allows

Agency = what actually prevails, positively or negatively, in contrast to actual power

It’s important to recognize this distinction. Down the millennia, women have got rather good at circumventing legal restrictions via “subversive” power. We all know this. It’s why someone like Olympias got slammed by the likes of Plutarch. She didn’t “know her place.” Never mind that her legal “place” in Epiros versus Macedon versus various southern Greek city-states varied. Women in ancient Greece often found ways to exercise power outside legal bounds. Rather than “illegal,” we should refer to this as “alegal.”

Yet supposed legal power can be deceptive the other way too: it my imply more power than women actually have…just ask any rape survivor who has to testify in court in the face her reputation being smeared by the defense.

So, all that laid out as a basis, let’s look at mortal women vs. immortals.

Next point of definition: immortals are immortals not because they’re “good” or should be imitated but because 1) they don’t die (although some can be killed), and 2) they’re more powerful than mortals. They don’t play by the same rules and aren’t held to the same standards of “proper” behavior. Afterall, Zeus married two of his own sisters (Demeter, then Hera).

Religious festivals were also known for allowing “transgressive” behavior normally restricted in regular/normal/profane time. So, for instance, during the annual Thesmophoria, married women left their families to camp out together and form their own “city-state,” even electing temporary magistrates to run this 3-day city-of-women within the larger polis. Young girls on the cusp of their periods in Attika went camping to play the bear for Artemis at Brauron (and apparently other places). Etc.

Religious festival served an important function in ancient Greece, providing much-needed interruptions to the drudgery of daily life. In antiquity, relatively few cultures had regular “breaks” like weekends. Rather, religious festivals provided this function; these might range from a half-day break to something a week long or more. Perhaps it’s no surprise, then, that divine behavior was considered exceptional. The sacred (numinous) was sharply divided from the profane (normal).

Additionally, it’s no surprise if farming societies, or any society with a strong connection to the earth, should develop powerful goddesses. There are, of course, male fertility deities, but Mother Nature/Mother Earth is nearly universal. The only religion I can think of where the earth is male and the sky is female is ancient Egypt. (Recall Isis’s starry robe!) There are probably more, but it’s not exactly typical.

I’m not getting into the much-fraught debate about why women’s power in most historical societies has been less than men’s. Theories breed like hydra heads. But it is pretty well recognized that in societies where women had some control over their fertility (when to have babies, and how many), as well as independent control over their finances, their social status was higher. Beyond that, the best we can say is that which societies developed higher status for women depended on a constellation of factors.

Ironically—and perhaps counterintuitively—these factors didn’t involve the relative importance of female deities. Perhaps for reasons outlined above. Not all societies saw their divinities as living in ways mortals should imitate.

In her groundbreaking Goddesses, Whores, Wives, and Slaves—one of the first books to really look at the role of women in ancient Greece—Sarah Pomeroy herself noted the problem with the status of goddesses versus the status of flesh-and-blood women. Discussion of women in ancient Greece has grown more nuanced since. For a great little overview, let me recommend Lin Foxhall’s Studying Gender in Classical Antiquity (2013). I love this book because it looks at more than just texts (which is Pomeroy’s more traditional, Classical approach). Foxhall uses a lot of archaeology, which, when it comes to women (and slaves, for that matter) really fleshes out our perspectives. There’s also the more recent Exploring Gender Diversity in the Ancient World (Allison Surtees, Jennifer Dyer eds., 2020). It’s one of those great “collections” where you get the advantage of multiple voices contributing. It’s more about gender variance than women, but I quite like it. Last, let me also recommend Helen Morales’ Antigone Rising, which looks at Classical myth today, or reception studies. Morales is one of those Classicists who (like me) thinks it important to engage with the wider public, but she’s rather more prominent and respected. 😉

So, there’s some good, reliable literature to get you off the ground too, most intended for a non-specialist audience. (I’d tackle the first two and last before trying the collection, which is more specialized with some linguistic discussions, etc.)

——-

* Even in the Greco-Persian Wars, more Greek city-states didn’t fight the Persians than did!

[xxcrystalinerose]

Gotta love how Zag's love interests are 1) The punisher of jealousy and oathbreakers, 2) Peaceful Death, and 3) Cute gorgon head maid who's a total sweetheart

While Mel's (possible) love interests are 1) Divine Retribution, punisher of hubris, 2) Doom (feared and hated by all mankind), 3) Strife (Greek pantheon's #1 troublemaker), and 4) Two mortals whose whole life story is a cautionary tale about hubris.

All the while unlike Zag, Mel's implied to have never had a romantic relationship before as an adult, based on her Aphrodite boon dialogues (to me, her and Icarus screams "childhood puppy love", which doesn't actually count as true relationship experience).

Girlie I think you need to get therapy or get laid. Preferably both. And soon.

...

I do think it's cute that at least between Meg/Than and Nem/Moros, both women are deliverers of punishment, while both men are embodiments of concepts that will inevitably arrive at the end of mortal lives. Dusa and Icarus + Arachne also fit the mold of "sweetheart dealing with power dynamics issues" (prince/servant vs. goddess/mortal, in Arachne's case a mortal maligned by gods).

Zagreus and Melinoë may have never known each other, but they somehow have the exact same bisexual taste, which is very important to me.

Also proof that they're DEFINITELY Persephone's children: got their mother's taste for tall big tiddy goths lmao.

[sarafangirlart]

Did Kaos even explain why the three humans “destined to destroy Zeus/the Gods” are specifically Eurydice, Caeneus and Ariadne? Because if they really wanted a “we hate the gods” story shouldn’t the chosen three be. severely wronged or abandoned by the gods / the fates?

Like Oedipus? Lamia? Cassandra? Daphne? Arachne? Callisto? Hell I’d even watch a smackdown of Clytemnestra vs Artemis or Menelaus and Helen vs Aphrodite any time then watch a whole other boring show following the same bad story tropes.

They don’t really explain it no, but I was so eager for it to be over I likely missed it, this show seems surprising hesitant to show the more gruesome side of mythology, if they adapted the story that Caeneus was raped by Poseidon and they show how angry and miserable he is about it I would’ve totally been on board, tho someone mentioned that considering the current social environment is especially hostile towards trans ppl nowadays, having someone transition after assault could be bad “pr” so to speak, tho I don’t think we should bend a knee to transphobes/terfs and make representation that’s more palatable and presentable, human experience is messy and we shouldn’t shy away from that in an attempt to make bigots less hostile towards minorities bc they will always be hostile.

If they show Eurydice being angry about Aristaeus not facing any consequences for trying to assault her I’d understand that too mythology Eurydice has zero beef with Hera, but she could feel resentment towards Aristaeus and by extension Apollo (since he’d likely defend his son), gods rarely face consequences for assaulting mortals, Euripides’s Ion tackles that subject way better than all of these “Gods bad” modern retelling (tho I wish Creusa didn’t forgive Apollo bc that mf didn’t even have the balls to show his face).

Instead of Ariadne, who usually gets a happy ending and becomes a goddess herself, how about going with Apemosyne? Another Cretan princess. Her story is extremely depressing, she’s screwed over by a god and her own family, considering that half the show takes place in the underworld she’d fit right in. Considering she’ll be “coworkers” with Hermes it would especially suck for her. But considering that Dionysus is made to be one of the “good ones” even tho in mythology he brainwashed women into slaughtering their families, they’d probably portray Hermes as such too, since he’s usually simply the comic relief in adaptations anyway.

That’s another thing, they water down the gods who are supposed to be good guys and make the “bad guy” worse, in this version Hades never kidnapped Persephone that’s just propaganda in universe. The Fates and Furies are goddesses but in this show they’re against the gods bc of that meander water thing? Don’t they drink it too?

I think they realized that their hesitancy means that they won’t be showing us bad things the gods actually did and so they make up random bullshit like Hera owning tongueless priestesses and Zeus killing a kitten. Cassandra is in the show but she’s more of an exposition machine tho it’s hinted she’ll play a bigger role in season 2, but why couldn’t she be one of the three humans destined to destroy Zeus? Why aren’t any of the Trojans destined to destroy Zeus? Why do they have to be saved by Greeks? Sure Zeus in mythology had a soft spot for them but he still planned the destruction of their city (could be a decent metaphor for an abuser who says that they love their victim while still abusing them imo) but Kaos Zeus doesn’t have that goodwill towards the Trojans so why not have them rightfully take him down? In the final episode Andromache and Ariadne team up and agree to fight against Olympus, tho that reminds me of Acrisius in the Clash of the Titans remake being more of a dumb dumb than he is in the myths and started a war against Mount Olympus only to unsurprisingly fail.

I really dislike how the Trojans are portrayed in the show, clearly they are supposed to be allegory for modern middle eastern refugees in Europe yet all the main Trojan characters are played by white actors. They have such a racially diverse cast but they seem uninterested in actually representing the diversity of the Mediterranean and mythology as a whole.

[superscrub323]

So a thought occurs to me...what does make a 'Good Ares'?

Well the tl;dr is basically Norse Era Kratos but he's renamed Ares but since I technically said that in a previous blog post I'll elaborate. Alright, we all know how most media just gets Ares...wrong. He's either evil, ineffective because Athena exists, or just plain an asshole. Which if I was a God of War and Bloodshed who Loves bringing Fear, Dread, Strife, and Destruction where ever I go on a battlefield I can see why people would call me an asshole but if you followed me or most of my mutuals you probably know that's not entirely the case which makes it sad when that's the part where post people home in on. So, going under the assumption that we have enough on Ares from original tellings to paint a full picture*, here's what I would use to paint a picture of a 'good Ares'

Well he has to be violent, I know shocking right? A God of War being violent! Alright serious time, While certain War Gods and Philosophers love to paint a picture of a War that can be won without fighting, that's called diplomacy, and while it is valid, wars are inherently violent and confrontational and any Ares needs to reflect that. And since being a hothead that always looks for a fight doesn't automatically designate one towards being an asshole as proud warrior race guys, and hotheads can attest, he can be violent and still not be an asshole. Second off he has to be handsome. Yeah apparently original tellings of Ares describe him as one of the handsome among Greek Gods which is really impressive when Apollo and Adonis, two names synonymous with male beauty, exist. Granted you think most would figure that out from his legendary love affair with Aphrodite but apparently some people just can't resist making him ugly, which sucks but long story short, he has to be handsome. Third off, no misogyny. The whole dubiousness of Ares being a 'Protector of Women' thing notwithstanding and the fact that Greece already had Goddess who were 'Protectors of Women' (whether or not they were good at it from the stories we have vs how they were worshipped I leave you), Ares is a God in a pantheon that follows 'no means yes and yes means anal' rules to a T and the fact that he's one of the primary Olympians who has a cleanish track record with the opposite gender and is patron to an Island Nation of Badass Female Warriors who would go on to inspire Wonder Woman herself shows that by Ancient Greek Standards he's...not a misogynistic asshole (which in Ancient Greek Terms makes him a radfem but again, that speaks more poorly on his male cohorts if anything else). Fourthly, he has to be effective contrast to Athena who's no less necessary in the Art of War. Okay the running joke among Greek Mythology nerds is that Ares is the 'crybaby War God who gets his ass kicked by Athena and her pet heroes and goes crying to mommy and daddy who tell him to stop being a little bitch' and if I were to take his 3 most embarrassing moments in a vacuum I might come to that agreement. But I didn't and what I instead see is that Ares is a physically and martially superior to Athena who has to resort to tactical yet dirty tricks to get the win. Which isn't bad in and off itself, I do like Athena being a boss bitch, but when we say 'Athena kicked Ares ass twice in the Iliad' without the 'by using an invisible helmet and a mortal as a misdirection the first time and by having Zeus's 'Everything Proof Shield' and taking advantage of him being distracted the second time' we get painted an...incomplete picture. Which would be all fine and dandy but while Athena's domain of Strategy and Wisdom are important as shown in those examples (and said examples are no less impressive even if the impressiveness lies in her preparedness and strategy rather than her pure martial ability) Ares and by proxy War...kind of need the whole...violence, fear, dread, chaos, and destruction as I said before. So a good Ares needs to be a reminder that wisdom, strategy, and even diplomacy are no less essential to warfare than violence and bloodshed. Heck Ares sired a Goddess of Harmony so he himself knows this. So yeah, that's my list on what makes a good Ares...now who did Ares best... Well...Hades by Supergiant Games has the best Ares by default. He's violent to a borderline creepy degree but not impolite and/or rude to any of the Chthonic Deities, we don't know if if he has any children, but if he does we can also confer that if how he treats Zag is any indication he doesn't treat them like shit, he's handsome in a boyish way and looks cute in a game where 'looking cute' is a requirement for all the character designs, and he's a good contrast to Athena who's conversations between the two are nothing but pure gold.**

* New things get discovered everyday.

** But if he turns out to be evil in Hades 2 I'm going to recant that while resisting every urge to send hate mail to Supergiant Games.

[readychilledwine]

Cleavage/Collarbones Headcanons

Warnings - as someone who recovered from an eating disorder, I know collarbones can be a very triggering topic. Please proceed with caution.

A/n - 4 of our main girlies to start.. Let me know if we want a part 2 and who should be on it

✨️Acotar Body Headcanons Masterlist✨️

Feyre

Due to Feyre being an archer, I headcanon she has very defined skeletal-muscular build through her chest and shoulders, including her collarbones

Momma has built shoulders and strong arms. It's possibly the strongest muscle grouping in Feyre's body aside from that human heart of hers.

I imagine it's one of her features Rhysand is secretly madly in love with. They're like the perfect framework for any necklaces he gives her.

Something about Feyre's collarbones in my mind screams they'd be elegant on top of everything, but I see Feyre growing into more of a class sex appeal VS male gaze sex appeal outside of the CoN now that she is a mother.

Breasts change a lot with motherhood as well, so I imagine that's motivation for her to continue working her upper body.

I see deep plunging necklines being replaced with sweetheart cuts that dip a bit more in the center, highlighting her.. What was it Rhysie said? Ripe apple-like breasts coming.

Listen, becoming a mom doesn't mean you can't still be sexy (at least lie to me and echo chamber that for me, please) but I think it would change Feyre's cleavage style significantly.

I honestly would find her dressing like this so powerful. She's gone through her spring phase, her high lords play toy phase, let her have a "this is the only preview you get," phase with a new, fuller, hot mom bod, SJM. Please, your mother readers are begging for it.

Mor

Mor is an engima to me. I don't know why.

I don't imagine her with collarbones that capture your attention, but I think that's because I see Mor with a very regal neck, if that makes sense?

Her neckline creates that flow to her very soft collarbones. They're definitely visible, but not that way I believe other females are.

Mor has her fashion set to follow the flow of her body lines, hence the cutout gowns.

I think with Mor, underboob and inside boob cleavage is more popular than traditional top cleavage.

I may be picturing her dresses wrong, but I always picture those dresses girls bought in like early like... 2010s to be Greek goddesses for Halloween. Some of you will know exactly what I'm talking about. Others are about to find out.

Mor strikes me as too confident to worry about modesty and I don't hate her for that.

I mean, if I was a female general and had a body like Mor does, I too would show off my underboobs as a way to show my abs.

Nesta

Ness has collarbones you dream of sipping red wine from. I was going to make that all this section says. I was told that was unfair.

There's something about Nesta that screams collarbone. I don't think she's an unhealthy weight by any means, I just picture her with that built there they are deep and pronounced.

Nesta, I see, as very modest despite fanart depicting her otherwise. I do not think you get to see Ness and her collarbones as often as you may like, and when you do it is a treat.

I imagine Nesta in a lot of square neck lines that maybe have an illusion netting to show a bit of cleavage, but I do not see her in the deep dipping dresses she is sometimes shown in. I know they may have been canon, but, it's canon that feels un-Nesta to me.

Elain

Big girls, where we at?

It's no secret I picture Elain as a plus size girly, and while it is possible for plus sized women to have very visible collarbone built (it's as much about skeletal structure as it is the fluff), I do not picture this for Elain.

In general, I see Elain much softer than her sisters both on the inside and in physical appearance, and those who've gotten to know me best know I think Elain is easily the most attractive of the 3.

Elain has the collarbones that are noticeable when her head is angled just right.

She's thought about making a bargain, hoping the mark would high light them more. That was met with a soft smile from Rhysand, his hand gently touching her face, "That's not how that works, Elain." Rhysand would then introduce her to glimmery cosmetics called highlighters she uses to add some sparkle to her collarbones.

Elain is my off the shoulder moment sister and due to that, I imagine her necklines being similar to Feyre's: Sweethearts, but make it cutesy sexy

I think Elain is a little more bold than Nesta cleavage wise, but not as bold as Feyre may be.

Elain is more willing to show some upper chest and I love her for it.

[cupidvision]

𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓪- 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓰𝓸𝓭𝓭𝓮𝓼𝓼 𝓸𝓯 𝓶𝓪𝓻𝓻𝓲𝓪𝓰𝓮

𝒽𝒾𝓈𝓉𝑜𝓇𝓎

hera is the child of cronus and rhea, as well as the sister of her future husband, zeus. she was swallowed by her father cronus, and was saved by zeus. since gods and goddesses are immortal, they couldn’t do anything, but wait to be released.

after this, the greek gods vs titan war begins. she sides with her siblings (the gods) and fights against the titans. during this, she is attacked by the titans, but zeus sacrifices himself to save hera.

𝓂𝑜𝓇𝑒 𝒶𝒷𝑜𝓊𝓉 𝒽𝑒𝓇𝒶

hera represents marriage, but she can also represent jealousy, which i will get into later in this post

she has powers such as, shape shifting, weather manipulation, mind control, and being able to change creatures into different creatures

she was said to help other greek goddess into having healthy babies and good marriages

𝓁𝑜𝓋𝑒 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒

zeus actually made attempts at courting hera, but he failed. he then turned into a cuckoo bird, and hera pitied the bird so she held it to her breast. he then turned back into is god form and pleasured hera. she felt much shame, so to cover it up, she married zeus. the had a very beautiful wedding, that the gods and goddesses enjoyed

during their relationship, zeus cheating on hera multiple times, which grew hera to become jealous, envious, and vengeful.

one of zeus’s lovers, leto, was a victim to hera’s revenge. hera made everyone shun leto, she sent a huge python to attack her, and cursed leto so she wouldn’t be able to find anywhere to give birth

another of his lovers, io, was turned into a cow and was watched by argus panoptes, who was a giant with 100 eyes, so zeus could never see her again

alcmene, was refused birth by hera, who was the mother of hercules. in some myths, it’s said that for a birth to occur, the goddess eileithyia, must be present. in which, hers forced her to sit outside of the delivery room.

hera poisoned, and successfully killed a majority of oenone’s island, by throwing a snake into the water source

the final story i will be sharing involves semele. zeus got semele pregnant, and this caused hera to be jealous and upset. hera then manipulated her into asking zeus to show her his powers to their fullest potential, which then burned her alive

𝑜𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓇 𝒻𝒶𝒸𝓉𝓈

other names: juno

symbols: cuckoo bird, peacock, cow, flowers, crown, pomegranate, sceptre

asteroid meaning(my opinion): marriage, fertility, childbirth, women, jealousy, vengefulness, envy, wanting to harm someone out of jealousy, being tricked into love, marrying/ falling in love with someone out of guilt or shame

dwelling: mount olympus

children: hephaestus, eileithyia, hebe, ares

dividers by @anitalenia @aquazero @i-mmaculatus

[gingermintpepper]

hi I love your tags so so much! they were so sweet and so interesting and creative and the whole Aphrodite type of beauty thing sounds really interesting do you have any articles and recommendations to read further into it??

-hogoflight

Hello my fine feathered (I am assuming possession of feathers if you are, indeed, capable of flight) @hogoflight! I'm always always happy to hear that people appreciate my frenzied rambling in the tags :D! I have a lot of articles and recommendations :D!! Ancient Greek notions of beauty and representations of it in their art and sculptures is a pretty well studied topic! There isn't any way for us now to know definitively what the beauty standard was (it varied widely from region to region and culture to culture after all) but here are a couple of my favourite reads about Aphrodite and what her representations tell us about idealised beauty!

Probably the most empirically extensive one I can list is Krönström's thesis which compares statues of Aphrodite and literary text referring to both the goddess and mortal women to determine physical ideals for women in five specific eras of Grecian antiquity. Including measurements of the statues there are many descriptions of Aphrodite as 'curvy' with a 'voluptuous figure' and with 'ample buttocks and bosom'.

"When the beauty traits are described in the texts, they are never extreme or anything that could not be found in normal people just that they are more beautiful in every aspect. Furthermore, the sculptures’ physical forms look healthy, they are tall and have distinct curves. Great examples of this are the Knida sculpture and de Milo (the Melian) sculpture."

Of course, these images are still idealised, and there was still a concept such as 'too fat' or 'too skinny' found in written records (and this thesis even includes analysis of pornographic writings and descriptions of the fashion and stylings of pubic hair of women from different regions!!) but from an interpretational standpoint? There is absolutely no reason why these can't refer to a fuller figure. Height was also a very important factor after all and over the course of many eras, it seems like being well proportioned in addition to the length and appearance of one's hair were the most important factors (and, like Apollo, greater beauty was given to those with curlier hair)

Mireille M. Lee's 'Other Ways of Seeing' essay which talks about the forgotten female viewers of Knidian Aphrodite which is also extremely illuminating on how Aphroditic sexuality and sensuality was perceived totally differently from the well documented male voyeuristic gaze (which was overly preoccupied with the statue's nakedness and therefore over-sensationalised the statue's physical appearance) vs women's perspective on the statue which is more centered on the beauty of simplicity in Aphrodite's garment and decoration and in her power and ability to captivate both in her finery and without it. I think it's especially useful in exploring the importance of finery, jewellry and adornment in representations of Aphroditic beauty.

"Some of the small-scale copies are heavily jeweled, especially those from the eastern Mediterranean, for example the Hellenistic gilded terracotta statuette in the Çanakkale Museum (Fig. 5) in which the goddess wears, in addition to the armband on her (right) arm, the following: a necklace with multiple pendants; cross-bands extending over both shoulders and hips, with a cascading pendant in the center; a coiled snake armband on the left arm and another snake on her left thigh, and a twisted anklet on her right leg. (The left leg has been restored, and might also have featured an anklet.)"

"Jewelry is especially associated with Aphrodite in Greek literature. As seen above, in the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite, the goddess adorns herself with gold jewelry, dress-pins, and earrings in the shape of flowers (162–3)..."

Finally, and to me, the most important one in the argument for an interpretation of Hyacinthus as fat, beautiful and fundamentally Aphroditic comes from Brilmayer's brilliant brilliant thesis done on Aphrodite's work and influence in Archaic Greek Poetry which does away with all of that masculine preoccupation with physical proportion, measurement and bodily ideals for a focus on a Sapphic Aphroditic ideal centered in clothing, ornamentation and, most importantly cunning as symbols of Aphrodite and ultimately a feminine idealised form of beauty. This paper also discusses Pandora and Helen in these terms and it is just kind of a wonderful read tbh.

"Combining Homeric and Hesiodic elements with her own ideas, she [Sappho] alters the way female beauty is viewed. For example, the Homeric war chariot – a symbol of male, military prowess - comes to symbolise the totality of Aphrodite’s power uniting in itself male and female qualities. Having addressed the concept of beauty directly, Sappho then concludes that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. With the help of Helen of Troy and her beloved Anaktoria, Sappho sets out to reinvent the concept of female beauty as a godlike, subjective quality that may be expressed in many ways, yet remains inspired by Aphrodite."

The conclusion to all of this of course is that Aphroditic ideal beauty is much more fluid compared to its stricter Apolline masculine standard. The nuances and understandings of both are of course, constantly being studied, analysed and scrutinised but really, if Dionysus who was both bearded and clean shorn, effeminate, birthed and rebirthed (and twice gestated!) and strongly associated with vegetation can be popularly portrayed as fat and handsome, why can't Hyacinthus?!

[angrycloudloud]

My dear half bloods, I have a theory...

Hi, there's something that's been bugging me since the other day, when I watched the fifth episode of pjo...

Spoilers from here (and a bit of mythology)

When Ares said that he didn't like his children... Okay, I know, I know the gods in this series aren't known for paying child support, but... I think Ares case could be more heartbroken than what we can think at first.

I want to start giving a bit of context in WHY I think there's something really sad behind his words and acts. First, let's talk a bit about mythology...

Ares cares about his children... In his own way.

I'll put a couple of quick examples (just mention something and move back to my point). Ares in Greek mythology it's known for many things and one that I found interesting was that he march in battle with his sons by his side: Phobos and Deimos (fun fact 1 these two are the personification of Panic and Fear, fun fact 2 they are also sons of Aphrodite... Fun fact 3, yes, they are the little "demons" that were the minions of Hades in the Disney movie.) Ares is also known for what happened to his daughter Alcippe, who was 🍇 by a son of Poseidon and Ares didn't took it too well... So he send that son of Poseidon to visit Hades... He unsubscribed that man from the world of the living with his spear... Ares was judged acussed by Poseidon of murder, but the goddesses voted in favor of Ares. (anyway, I invite anyone who is interested in ancient Greek mythology and culture to look up and read about women's rights in Sparta vs Athens, you might be surprised) Now, my point is that he might say that he doesn't like his kids but...

...I mean... he gave Clarisse the spear because he recognized her value as a warrior. It may sound stupid, but I think it was his way of saying that he was proud of her (and maybe he said that to her when he gave the spear to Clarisse, we don't know). What, it's clear, is the fact that she cherished that spear as if he really put all his love in it and said to her "this is my weapon, make me proud"

But why and how does he goes from "I fight with my children by my side in battle" and "don't you f*cking touch my daughter" to "I hate children, even my own"?

And here's when it gets sad, I think he has lose so many of his children in battle, dying too young, that he distance himself from them on purpose to not get too attached.

We've seen, pretty well portrayed in the show, how Ares children are more reckless in battle than Athena's (it's an example because they both are deities of war) so it's more than possible that if those children are in a quest or a battle, they decide to go face to face with the big baddie just to make Ares proud or to prove themselves they are strong enough to be warriors, children of Ares... And if they survived and get older, they are the most likely to end up joining the army... aaand that exposes them to die in battle even when the monsters aren't a problem anymore.

And that's why, I think, Ares had try to detached himself from his children, because he knows demigods don't live long and even if they got to be adults, he knows his children, and probably he knows they'll become soldiers to feel the battle and feel him closer even when they already have earned a peaceful life.

And that is why I think it's sad, because he probably is so proud of them...but also, he is probably so worried about them, that he had to decide if letting himself be vulnerable and care openly for his children or bottle up all his father instincts and detach himself from his children so nobody can weaponize them against him.

Aaaaaand now I'm sad...

[fairytail-whathesays]

hiiii, i love basically all of ur takes, its so validating knowing that you're not the only one hating on jellal, jerza, elfever, etc while being down 4/shipping cobra/laxus. if u want, can u give ur opinion on cana/lucy and ur fav wlw ships in fairy tail? u can answer it in one post idc if its long, answer one question, or split it into 2. have a good day!

Sure! Anything for a fellow Cobraxus shipper!

Cana/Lucy:

It's more vibes than a ship I'm diehard into but I like it more than NaLu or any other wlw Lucy ship--they have actual chemistry and a basis for some drama with the shared daddy issues. Lucy definitely deserves someone as down to earth as Cana and when every other woman in Fairy Tail is Legitimately Insane, it's an easy ship to root for. I really like that Cana is flawed while still interesting as a character and her partnering up with Lucy is one of the best partnerships of the Tenrou arc.

Other WLW ships that I like in Fairy Tail include:

ErzaJane is a crucial, time-honored ship rising on a thermal column of thick BST and contrasting personalities. Knight vs. Demon. Red and white. Sweet versus serious. Aesthetically it's a 10/10.

SoraNerva, also a color contrast and attitude contrast, is like if you took the above and mixed in more knives and evil women. Angel and Minerva is easily my favorite WLW ship of Fairy Tail and I'm very sad it doesn't see more attention. Just the vibes alone are deadly good. One names after powerful spiritual beings close to God, and the other named after a Greek goddess of wisdom and warfare. I finally nutted up and wrote something in this direction.

In similar veins, I achieve serotonin boosts from the ships Ultear/Kagura and Ultear/Minerva. Again, I love evil women and I love women with swords. Ultear and Minerva have this time/space dichotomy thing going on and both being women that back up a lot of power with a strategic approach, while Ultear and Kagura are both women driven to make war by the unforgivable crimes committed against them. If, like me, you're willing to ignore Ultear being the one that possessed Jellal (because it was really stupid), it's even better.

Chendy is a wholesome teenage girl ship and is the only valid Wendy ship for obvious reasons.

On the topic of other WLW ships I have thought of or which have at least popped up on my radar:

Lucy and Yukino (Lukino?), Meredy and Juvia, and Aries and Juvia are all ships I've considered before and am open to.

[characterswithgodsnamesbattle]

Round 2 Poll 5

Hera is the Greek goddess of marriage, women during childbirth, women and family.

Jesus was a Jewish preacher and religious leader. For Christians, he is God the Son, the savior announced in the Bible.

[ladykailitha]

Right, so there is something I have to bring up with the story "The Harrington Design" and that's author knowledge verses character knowledge.

Steve is a nineteen year old boy in 1980s hick Indiana. What he knows could probably fill a thimble. If Steve says something wrong or something that is recent knowledge, just remember I've already addressed it here:

Steve ducked his head again and blushed. “Just because I’m not interested in science and fantasy doesn’t mean I’m stupid.” He straightened up. “And yeah, sometimes I get things wrong. But everyone does at some point. In fact I get a hell of a lot more flack for my intelligence than Eddie does and he repeated his senior year twice!” He took a deep breath and then ran his fingers through his hair.

So what is character knowledge vs author knowledge:

Author Knowledge:

I want to preface that I am not ragging on the book, I'm sure it's delightful. "Red, White, and Royal Blue" has the main character as the Prince of Wales, despite the fact that he is fourth in line to the English throne. A quick google search would tell the author that his mother, the heir to the throne, would be the Princess of Wales.

This is author knowledge. But this is an extreme example when most of the time it's more about in universe stuff that a character wouldn't know.

Character Knowledge:

This anything a character would know. But remember that characters are people and their knowledge wouldn't be perfect.

A good example of this is from "Percy Jackson and the Last Olympian". He comes across a statue that is holding a horn of plenty and he confuses her for Demeter (the statues were designed by Daedalus to come to life to aid New York if it ever came under attack) and she gets mad at him because she's Pompona the Roman goddess of plenty. Percy has only ever interacted with Greek gods so it was an easy mistake to make.

Does that make sense?

It's not the author getting things wrong, it's that the character has limited knowledge. And Steve wouldn't know about religious clothes, women's clothes, or weapons used at the time. Because he wouldn't have been interested in them. Broader things like how to string a bow or what a gambeson is, he'd know. But the rest? Middling knowledge at best.

Also for those new to my writing: I delete anonymous asks that are hate, make me mad, or just straight up upsets me. I won't engage. Mmk?

[sarafangirlart]

If people really want to make a retelling about a woc from Greek Mythology that prbly faced discrimination or was perceived as an outsider then Andromeda is right here. Not only that she was from Ethiopia, but besides Ovid nobody really had the balls to describe her as dark skinned. She was always white as marble or at least paler than the other ethiopians, bc people's racism n xenophobia didn't let them comprehend the fact that a dark skinned woman could be beautiful, let aside more beautiful than the sea goddesses.

Also, if some of her kids inherited her skintone then they prbly faced some discrimination too. But people don't want this sort of retelling centering her, bc that means they would have to present Perseus as a loving husband and a caring father in the process, and those who desperately want to demonize him don't want that.

Yup, the contrast between how Perseus treats Andromeda and their children vs how Jason treats Medea and their children is very interesting to explore. Even if you go with sources that describe her as Mena rather than African, she’d still be a foreigner.

So considering that all Andromeda’s children ended up ruling a kingdom or a town and marrying other royalty, and that Perseus never cheats on her (even tho it would’ve been socially acceptable) or had children with other women, it’s just further proof that Perseus loved and respected Andromeda.

[classicslesbianopinions]

ANCIENT WOMAN THUNDERDOME 2023: Masterpost!

Link to old pinned post (articles about racism and white supremacy in classics) HERE.

The event: Poll bracket to answer the central question: which woman from ancient Greek or Roman myth and literature would win in a fight?

The rules: Vote based on who would win in a fight, NOT who you like more. Consider factors such as physical prowess, intelligence or cunning, and magical ability.

If the character has multiple non-godly forms, consider the one you believe to be more powerful. If the character is a goddess for a portion of their life, please only consider their mortal or non-godly form.

The tags: All posts related to the bracket are tagged "ancient woman thunderdome 2023." All fights are tagged "who would win."

The bracket:

[image description: a bracket titled Ancient Woman Thunderdome 2023. it lists 32 matchups between 64 women. all matchups are listed below. end image description.]

The fights:

ROUND ONE (bolded denotes currently active fights!):

Clytemnestra vs. Niobe Electra vs. Iphis Chrysothemis vs. Cassiopeia Iphigenia vs. Semele Procne vs. Creusa Callisto vs. Europa Daphne vs. Lysistrata Philomela vs. Andromeda

Penelope vs. Antiope Atalanta vs. Stheno Dido vs. Lavinia Penthesilea vs. Nausicaä Camilla vs. Anna Briseis vs. Lesbia Agave vs. Chryseis Phaedra vs. Charybdis

Antigone vs. one of Hephaestus' "golden fembots" Helen vs. Deianeira Ariadne vs. Eurydice (from Antigone) Hecuba vs. Iambe Andromache vs. Echo Eurydice (Orpheus' love) vs. Psyche Ismene vs. Tiresias Jocasta vs. Scylla

Medea vs. a siren Circe vs. Cressida Cassandra vs. Leda Medusa vs. a maenad Hippolyta vs. Galatea Arachne vs. Pasiphae Pandora vs. Danae Io vs. Calypso

ROUND TWO:

Clytemnestra vs. Electra Cassiopeia vs. Iphigenia Procne vs. Callisto Lysistrata vs. Philomela

Penelope vs. Atalanta Dido vs. Penthesilea Camilla vs. Lesbia Agave vs. Charybdis

Antigone vs. Helen Ariadne vs. Hecuba Andromache vs. Psyche Tiresias vs. Scylla

Medea vs. Circe Cassandra vs. Medusa Hippolyta vs. Pasiphae Pandora vs. Calypso

ROUND THREE:

Clytemnestra vs. Iphigenia Callisto vs. Lysistrata

Atalanta vs. Penthesilea Camilla vs. Charybdis

Antigone vs. Hecuba Psyche vs. Scylla

Medea vs. Medusa Hippolyta vs. Calypso

ROUND FOUR (quarterfinal!):

Clytemnestra vs. Callisto Atalanta vs. Camilla Hecuba vs. Scylla Medea vs. Hippolyta

ROUND FIVE (semifinal!):

Clytemnestra vs. Atalanta Scylla vs. Medea

[chvoswxtch]

fearless- games! (cym, fmk, etc.)

cym as your book bfs and gfs (we need to know what literary hotties live rent free in your mind)

oh boy oh boy oh boy

you're really making me use my brain here. this was a lot more difficult than I thought it would be

@thyme-in-a-bubble- louisa clark from me before you (she's precious and adorable and deserves the world just like you)

@saintmurd0ck- evelyn hugo from the the seven husbands of evelyn hugo (you know why <;3)

@itwasthereaminuteago- peeta mellark from the hunger games (he's so wholesome and everyone's biggest supporter and looks out for everyone and you're very much a precious cinnamon roll like him)

@pleasurebuttonwrites- nick carraway from the great gatsby (you're a bit of a wallflower sometimes, but you have a big heart and you make people feel like they can tell you anything bc you're a safe space)

@theradioactivespidergwen- patrick from perks of being a wallflower (you are hilarious and crack me the fuck up, you're not afraid to call people out on their shit, and you have total main character energy)

@farfromstrange- jo march from little women (aside from her also being a writer, she’s a daydreamer and fiercely loyal to those she loves and I can see a lot of her in you)

@mars-rants-a-lot- buttercup from the princess bride (I love hearing about all the little adventures you go on <;3)

@desert-fern- arya stark from game of thrones (she is that bitch and so are you)

@courtforshort15- annabeth chase from percy jackson (I always thought she was so cool bc she was so clever and smart and creative and I feel like if you were a child of a greek god/goddess it would definitely be athena)

@spoodermain- simon spier from simon vs the homosapiens agenda (simon is a comfort character for me and you’re my comfort person <;3)

[virgogeminiposts]

Fourteen Flames

Valyria's pantheon of Gods & Goddesses (Old Valyria main religion)

Gaelithox – The god of fire. Ruler of the fourteen flames of Valyria, father of gods & dragons (Uranus/Zeus)

Meraxes – The goddess of fertility and motherhood, protector of women. Wife to Gaelithox, mother of gods and to birth the first dragons (Hera/Hestia)

Balerion – The god of death (Tartarus/Hades)

Vhagar – The goddess of war (Ares/Athena)

Syrax – The goddess of love (Aphrodite/Hera)

Caraxes – The god of the skies, ruler of the sun, the light and daytime. Protector of dragonriders (Crius/Apolo)

Vermithor – The god of harvest and agriculture, the protector of men (Pan/Demeter)

Arrax – The god of the seas (Poseidon/Tethys)

Tyraxes – The goddess of the night, ruler of the moon (Nyx)

Meleys – The goddess of magic. Protector of dragons and the Fourteen Flames (Hecate/Phoebe)

Vermax – The goddess of the hunt, the wilderness and the animals. Protector of travelers and the messenger of the flames (Artemis/Hermes)

Morghul – The god of time. Creator of the fourteen flames (Chronos)

Tessarion – The goddess of music, dance, poetry, wine and feasts (Dionysus)

Shrykos – The god of darkness, of all things evil, of monsters and tragedies

source of inspiration: https://greektraveltellers.com/blog/the-greek-gods; https://greekgodsandgoddesses.net/greek-vs-roman-gods; https://iron-throne-roleplay.fandom.com/wiki/The_Gods_of_Old_Valyria;

[aluminia]

GREEK SEXY/ICONIC WOMAN POLL

ROUND 2 let’s go!

Aggela Ioakimidou (tv show: Στο Παρά Πέντε/ In the Nick of Time) vs  Aspasia (Pericles' wife but great in her own way)

Sappho (poet) vs Xena (tv show: Xena: Warrior Princess)

Eleni Vlachaki (tv show: Κωνσταντίνου και Ελένης/Konstantinou and Eleni's) vs Zoumpoulia Abadjidou (tv show: Στο Παρά Πέντε/ In the Nick of Time)

Σαββατογεννημένες/ Women-born -on-Saturday (tv show cast) (yes I am putting them all as one entry 'cause we couldn't decide) vs Aglaia Karagiozi (shadow puppet theater)

Eleni Foureira (singer) vs  Sophia Laskaridou (painter)

Eleutheria Karadimou (goddess amateur author, director, screenwriter, actress ect) vs  Arleta (singer)

Empress Theodora (byzantine empress) vs  Laskarina Bouboulina (greek independence fighter)

Mascot of Papadopoulou biscuits vs  Vicky Georgiou (tv show: Ευτιχισμένοι Μαζί/ Happy Together)

Jenny Karezi (old actress) vs the head builder's wife (character in the Bridge of Arta story)

Manto Mavrogenous (greek independence fighter) vs Hypatia of Alexandria (philosopher, astronomer, mathematician)

Sofia Vempo (old singer/actress) vs Maria Callas (singer)

Melina Merkouri (old actress/activist/politician) vs Marina Diamandis (singer)

I will be adding links to the polls once I have made them

Round one