#Cis/trans/GNC/nonbinary/fluid/etc.

[crazywolfsthings]

I feel like people who say that Mizu wants to be a man and enjoys being one are forgetting the fact that Mizu did not choose to dress or act the way they do and was forced to do so as a child because people were looking for a girl, so their maid mom had her behave like a boy for her own safety. This was not his own choice.

And the reason why she gets upset when others insinuate that he's a woman is because women aren't allowed to do pretty much anything in their day and age, as we see when a woman is denied entrance into a town to sell goods to feed herself and her child because a man was not accompanying them.

Being a man provides them with so much more freedom and power to accomplish her goals, and if others discover he's a woman, she'll lose that freedom.

If you view him as trans, then that's fine, but you don't have the authority to say that's canon, and shouldn't get mad when others think about her as a woman or use she/her and they/them pronouns for them. If your argument is that everyone in the show uses he/him pronouns, then know that the creators of the show use she/her. All pronouns and headcanons are valid for Mizu.

[cardentist]

well ! I figured that was gonna happen, so lets not waste a good essay.

I feel like it's not controversial to say that there is a Lot of underlying transphobia in how people with "weird" gender and labels are treated. but in particular I'd like to highlight how multigender/genderfluid/genderqueer people/etc are expected to "pick a side" based on their agab (or perceived agab).

and this absolutely extends to nonbinary and intersex people as well. people viewing nonbinary people by their agab regardless of their identities, presentation, or real lived experiences (or punishing nonbinary people for not fitting what they Assume those things would be based on them Being nonbinary).

as well as the way that intersex people are erased and refused to be understood. it is, for instance, treated as ridiculous or even outright Dangerous to think an amab person could be trans masc or an afab person could be trans fem. ignoring, of course, that there are intersex people who Aren't treated like their agab. who are visibly read as trans and transition in ways that suit their agab.

and of course, intersex people have all sorts of relationships with gender and sexuality that influence their experiences.

but there's Also just this baseline kneejerk rejection of seeing multigender people as anything different from half trans. or rather, people don't like it when people relate to and share experiences with what they perceive as the "wrong" trans labels.

I've talked about this before, but I've been shuffling around labels for a very Very long time. both trying to find something to fit the way I feel, And in trying to figure out my feelings at all.

I've Always identified with both masculinity and femininity in some way, but for a very long time I've never enjoyed being Perceived As a girl. was I genderfluid, was I nonbinary, was I trans masc and gnc, what was I indeed. why was I comfortable, even Happy presenting femininely in some cases, but I feel antsy when my hair gets anywhere longer than "basically bald."

gender euphoria at the idea of going on T and wearing clothes that hide and change the shape language of my body, but Equally receiving gender euphoria at dressing and being perceived as Feminine without being perceived as a cis woman.

and in much the same way, when I Do present masculinely I enjoy not reading as a Cis man. that visible transness. that duality of masculine and feminine.

in the end I've found that my euphoria with femininity hinges on exactly that. I Want to transition, I want a deeper voice, I want my face and body to change. but I Also want to keep some of those traits that are read as feminine. some of the shape language of my body, my boobs, my presentation.

no matter how I choose to label this feeling, this desired presentation and desired interpretation, what this means for me is that I have shared experiences and desires with many other groups of trans people. trans people Can look and want to present as anything mind. but it is, for instance, not hard to imagine how someone in a dress with visible breasts and a masculine voice and facial hair would be interpreted and possibly treated.

and I think binary people really don't Like the idea of sharing experiences with the "wrong" sorts of people. they don't Like sharing experiences with nonbinary people, with multi gender or gender fluid people, with intersex people.

and I think I think there Needs to be some awareness of this. that trans spaces are always going to be fuzzy at the edges. that there will be men who are Also women and women who are Also men, and that not being a threat to anyone who's one or the other.

and I think there Also needs to be an awareness that this intolerance to people with Weird genders and presentations and labels. Is Transphobia, regardless of who it's coming from.

not to inherently demonize anyone struggling with feelings of discomfort, but to ask people to Examine that feeling. especially before they choose to interact with people who are different from them.

everyone has prejudices, everyone has insecurity, everyone has biases and difficult emotions that they're trying to work through. and there's nothing wrong with that, but there needs to be an awareness and recognition of it. to make the active effort not to react to someone you don't understand with a negative kneejerk.

sometimes things that sound unintuitive make perfect sense to the person it's relevant to, sometimes things that sound intuitive are wrong. you don't Have to understand somebody to leave them be to do their own thing. and if you feel that someone's existence is harmful, sometimes it's a good idea to check that emotion.

[these-shouldnt-be-hot-takes]

This is not a hill I’m willing to die on, I’ll hear other takes, but imo the term ‘straight-passing relationship’ is not intended to refer to a relationship with a cis man and a cis woman who are both queer. Straight-passing relationship to me refers to couples like, one or both is nonbinary, gender-fluid, closeted trans and only out to their partner etc. Or a sapphic couple with a butch that often passes as a man or a gnc couple that looks like they might be a cis man and woman but actually aren’t.

Seeing a bisexual man and a bisexual woman call their relationship straight-passing feels wrong to me. They themselves might straight-passing, but there’s a difference between an individual person being straight passing and a relationship being straight passing. Their relationship is actually, by social standards, straight, even though the people in it are not. I’m not invalidating queer people in opposite gender relationships, they are still always queer no matter who they date, but calling a relationship between a cis man and woman queer feels wrong to me.

[daemonhxckergrrl]

cis people will "not understand" nonbinary identities and see you as Quirky AGAB. maybe Quirky Man bc masculinity assumed default.

progressive cis people (including cis queers) will see any kind of nonbinary identity as Woman-Lite.

trans men, transmascs, Genderfuck Boy Dykes, fluid-flux-complex-eldritch-beings etc. ie ANYONE WHO IS TRANS BUT NOT A TRANNY, NOT TMA, NOT TRANSFEM* will put us in the Quirky Man zone bc "ooh gnc genderfuck goals 😍".

Allure of the Tranny is a real phenomenon and y'all wanna wear us like a cute aesthetic, able to point at folks whose transfem identity you've erased as some sort of a justification/pass.

like calamity.sys, we're some kind of nonbinary girl. we have complexity. headmates makes it more complex as well. we're part girl part Thing, dog, cyborg, a Creature, faggy w/ it and very importantly...transfem. I'm a tranny first.

coming out as nonbinary was a Bad Idea. using they/them ever was a Bad Idea.

y'all will look at a girl 2 years on E, noticeable tits, cute dress, dangly earrings, and last thing you'll think is "some kind of woman". maybe you'll homour us if ur feeling nice and we keep quiet. can't have shit, can't give an inch, have to cut off entire parts of ourselves bc playing the role of "binary trans woman" barely get us treated with respect. dickhead.

*fighting over terminology is a distraction at this point. I like having terms that r unambiguous in context and in intent but y'all won't let us have shit no matter what terms we use.

it really is so tiring how people have endless patience and understanding and nuance for the complexities of nonbinary genderqueer identities until you're transfem. the amount of girls who would love to be able to be treated like something other than "binary trans woman" but can't cede any ground without getting relegated to the "genderfuck man" zone is staggering. myself in-fucking-cluded. people love to yell at me about how tma/tme is a harmful binary that excludes nonbinary people AS IF IM NOT A NONBINARY GIRL YOU FUCKING MORONS. but you forgot that was an option didn't you. tired of it

[mychemicalraymance]

Has Frank stated he is straight? Genuine question bc i cant remember. Either way this is hilarious that ppl are willing to come at u for suggesting an mcr member may be straight when the same ppl are probably going wild speculating shit about gerard. Like maybe just stick to what we know / what the members themselves have said and stop assuming personal info abt strangers? lol

Hm no usually (at least to me) the people who say this are the ones who seem to think its "creepy" to talk about gerard as anything but a Man who is a cis Guy. I actually love to say gerard way is a nonbinary person and part of the trans community. You have the wrong number here i think. Also im not assuming. I must SAY we live in a society joker face where being gay or trans or gnc etc is considered an aberration and unless you explicitly say with words you are one of those things and make a point to become involved in the community as a participant, you function as a straight person. Thats not the RIGHT thing but it is an understood aspect of identity politics, ESPECIALLY in celebrity culture. Even if we can't find video footage of frnk saying he is straight (i can't remember if there is, I just dont need to bc my point still stands) you CAN find footage of him talking about his life in ways that are inherent to being a straight person and a (respectful) implied separation of himself from the gay community. I know he's not gay the same way most people understand that people in a gay bar are gay. They have to say they're not to be understood as straight.

Like frank and gerard are different and the sticky point of this is that gerard IS involved and aligned with the gay and trans community. The STICKIEST point is that part of why gerard is so beloved and interesting as a celeb is that he defies a straight label but managed to do that without binariatic "coming out" and otherization that is categorical. Gerard being fluid rather than inert in his celebrity social capital via sexuality is like the whole point of WHY it works. Like he is being gay in a way that isn't just saying the words bc thats too easy for celebrity as a concept to subsume.

[tobi-smp]

while I’m feeling frisky

asexuals and aromantics are and always have been a part of the lgbt+ and queer communities. trans people are the backbone of the queer community and any attempt to push them out is terf and radfem propaganda. passing privilege is fake and bi and pan people are exactly as queer as they always are no matter what relationship they are (or aren’t) in. neither bisexuality or pansexuality are inherently bigoted and neither have a set definition, people identify with one vs the other based on the communities that they personally found themselves in, there’s no reason to demonize one group vs the other or try to gatekeep who can use which label. some people personally use the split attraction model and some people don’t and it’s not your place to police who does what with their labels (if an aromantic person identifies Only as aromantic then that’s their right, if an allo person identifies as gay and bi then that’s their right, it doesn’t matter what you think their identity “should be” because their identity is for them).

pronouns are gender presentation meaning anybody can use any pronoun and it has no baring on their identity unless they want it to, this includes people using multiple pronouns, neopronouns, people using pronouns that you personally think contradict their other labels (they don’t), etc etc etc. you don’t have to have dysphoria to be trans and you don’t have to transition to be trans, if someone says they’re trans then they are. we don’t do anyone any favors by trying to gatekeep medical transitioning, making it harder to get what we need only hurts the trans community more and it literally does not matter how other people choose to present (if a cis man wants tits then he should be allowed to have them, if a nonbinary person wants a flat chest then they should be allowed to have one).

intersex people and polyamorous people belong in the queer and lgbt+ community for the same reason that everyone else does, they deserve solidarity as well as a community to help them push for their rights in a society that discriminates against them. nonbinary people are inherently trans and they’re also not a monolith, nonbinary isn’t just a third gender and there are Multiple identities and presentations that can fall under the label (there isn’t one nonbinary look or name or presentation or agab). moreover trans people can be neither binary trans Or nonbinary (with multiple other labels being available (like agender, genderqueer, gender fluid, genderfuck, etc) or with a label they created for themselves). gnc people exist everywhere in every kind of person and ignoring their existence can lead to ignorant takes that ultimately do more harm than good.

people don’t Owe you access to information about them, if someone only openly identifies as queer or if they give you partial information about their identity or if they’re open with some people but not others or if they’re not out at all that is their right, making assumptions about people or getting angry that you aren’t being hand delivered everything about them is fucked up. labels can be messy and fluid and hard to grasp, people can change their identities any time they want whenever they want, they can have multiple conflicting identities, they can create new terms to better describe their feelings, they can play around with terms already available to them to create something that feels right, we’re here to have fun and be happy not to look presentable to heteronormative cishet society.

and finally, oppression isn’t a competition and gatekeeping people from the community or Within the community based on arbitrary oppression points that you made up is actively harmful and very often overtly bigoted. communities exist for the sake of the individuals in them, not to create a new different social hierarchy where you get to put yourself at the top. literally just be nice to people

[astronomeys]

Hey! I totally get if you don't want to answer this, I'm just genuinely confused and wanted to clear it up. How does a cis person experience dysphoria? Is it like weight related or is it still concerning gendered body parts? (Sorry there's no polite way to phrase this) Thanks in advance

Hi! Not a problem, I think this 100% needs to be a conversation.

It's the same as trans people in that it manifests in a variety of ways. I cannot speak for cis men with dysphoria, but in women, it tends to be more common in gender non-conforming women, butches, and studs than in gender-conforming or femme women. I am a gender-conforming femme cis lesbian with dysphoria in that I on and off feel a disconnect with my primary sex characteristics. I also at one point had dysphoria over my body shape being too feminine in terms of muscle tone and breast size.

For some GNC women, the idea that dysphoria = trans caused them to believe incorrectly that they are trans and transition when they don't necessarily want all the changes with transitioning and aren't actually trans, they're simply gnc and don't feel a connect with aspects of their body. But in the end, they are still women. It's not their womanhood they feel a disconnect with, it's just part of their body or appearance. For these people, a better route than a trans identity/transitioning is body acceptance, community of likewise people, and therapy to get to the core of their dysphoria.

I'm kind of in that boat. Because this whole dysphoria = trans thing was all that anyone every talked about back in the early 2010s, I mistakenly thought I was transgender for 10 years, went on T, and got a bilateral mastectomy. It turned out... I just have a fluid presentation/feeling about myself! That doesn't mean I don't feel like a woman, it just means that sometimes, my body doesn't align with how I wish I appeared or was. At my core, even in those moments where I embrace the fact that I medically transitioned, I am still a woman. Not a nonbinary woman, not a demi-woman, a cisgender woman.

And that's okay!

There is no specific way to be a man or a woman, right? That's kinda what the trans community has spent DECADES trying to get people to understand, right? So why should there be a specific way to be a cisgender man or woman? I love being a woman, but that doesn't always mean that my body reflects how I feel. For me personally, transition was the incorrect decision, and because no one told me that I had the option to be a cis person with dysphoria, I didn't know that transition was incorrect until it was said and done.

This is tangential, but I've since detransitioned in many ways (stopped T/went on birth control, got laser hair removal on my body/beard, just legally changed my name this morning!!!). However, there are still points of dysphoria and, ironically, dysphoria caused by my transition, hahaha.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense. As I was in the trans community for 10 years, I have nothing against them and fully support people being whomever they are regardless of dysphoria, transitioning, etc. But that includes trans AND cis people. If a cis woman wants to go on T but is still a woman, so what? If a trans male never has any physical transition, so what? Be and let be!

[mlmay-event]

✨NBLM participant announcement! (Please read)✨

Hi again, all! I wanted to clarify and reword a few things from our previous posts. The mods have unfortunately seen a lot of nonbinary people feeling unwelcomed, or excluded In this event. This really saddens me, as I (mod Jay) myself am nonbinary! I believe in previous posts I've been rather vague about who can participate, and that's on me. I never wanted to imply any sort of gatekeeping of who is and is not "MLM enough", that is your own personal choice to make.

There have also been a few people I've seen uncomfortable or confused with my wording that "you must lean masculine at least some of the time". As this event is focused on homosexuality and men in the community, we would be uncomfertable with say, cis girls or demigirls for example joining. I was trying to discourage that. however, I was mistaken on what the term meant and it led some to believe that only masculine men could join.

So let me clarify right now: NBLM are ABSOLUTELY welcome in this event! This includes enbies who are not masc leaning in presentation, enbies who do not have typically "manly" traits or hobbies, enbies who identify with many labels, and enbies who are not always male; or are more fluid (such as bigender and genderfluid people). Also, ALL MLM men are COMPLETELY welcome in this event! This includes feminine men, GNC men, men who are not strictly "gay" (such as bisexuals and pansexuals), ace men, trans men who cannot pass or do not want to pass, etc!

If you feel you are not "masc enough" to join, we are reassuring you that YOU ARE! And I'm sorry we ever implied that you weren't. We want you here, we want you participating! And we want you to show your pride and identity, too.

All that we ask is that participants in some way identify with maleness or the MLM label (and of course abide with our DNI's). That is all.

[toontowncreepypasta]

I hope this isn't rude!! I've just been questioning for some time, but I wanted to ask how you found out you were bigender?

nah it's not rude dw. or i guess i should say that i don't find it rude. not everyone would be comfortable answering this. anyways, it's more of a long running problem then 'finding out' it was more like finding the correct label i guess. up until then i had been figiting around with agender, nonbinary, gnc male, whatever. i've had these feelings for a long ass time but i mostly just chalked it up to me "being trans wrong" and figured if i vocalized any of them my transition would be undermined and invalidated by LITERALLY everyone. i assumed that other trans peopel and my friends would assume that i was lying about being transmasc, and that cis people would find comfort in the idea that i was "really cis all along"

anyuways i started testosterone in march and decided i shouldn't monitor my gender based on the idea that my friends are all kalvin garrah ass lickers (surprise! none of them were, literally none. my friends r the coolest people ever and extremely accepting) but the general feelings were an attachment to a lot of the misogyny i experienced as a kid, misogyny i experience now, and the general feeling of "womanhood."

the thing is "womanhood" is something ive been disconected from both by being trans AND by being autistic. no matter what, even if i wasnt trans i wouldn't have ever been a "woman" or a girl in societies eyes. too fat too ugly too weird, etc. and i really started having these feelings the older i got because id relate more and more to conversations i'd hear about how minor events of misogyny. being punished for being masculine, being punioshed for being funny, being punished for being weird or creepy. being punished for being the "weird art freak" when men get away with it all the time.

that being said, i also still heavily identify as masculine. i love my body hair, it gives me gender euphoria. i love my facial hair even if it's pubey and gross. i love the idea of me gaining more muscle and getting top surgery and if there were bottom surgery options i'd like id love the idea of that too. due to this i've had people assume im a lesbian quite a few times, problem with that is is that despite being bi that ratios like 95% men and masc people, and 5% fem people. (im t4t). i also never feel like a woman, or a girl, i never did. but i also never feel like a male or a guy or a dude. im just me. miss faggot. a ladydude. a girl dad.

that being said i thought bigender was essentially ~fancy genderfluid~ and that it changed day to day, which... isn't accurate for me, lol. my gender isn't fluid, i mean it is about as much as it is for everyone else, but im not genderFLUID. my dysphoria fluctuates on if i'm mentally sound enough to not let it bother me, not if i wanna be more masc or fem that day. im a consistant, those feelings don't change like it does for some people. anyways i just asked at one point on some social media "hey is there a gender for being both at the same time" and someone was like thats bigender and i was like ? i thought bigender meant changing day to day and they were like jake....

ANYWAYS. thats it yeah sorry for rambling NBSAHFAHHAHAHA

[simplysaphique]

ooo i have a bit of knowledge abt gnc vs nb. being gnc changes based on your culture, environment growing up, perceptions of trad. femininity, etc. i'm an afab italian person (first gen in america, raised super catholic etc etc) so i was meant to marry a man my grandmother picked and baptize my kids and not go to college, by deviating from those standards (queer, atheist, not married at 18) i'm gnc. if i lived my life exactly the same way but i was raised by super progressive (1/?)

american parents that didn't put that value on traditional femininity i might not be gnc. but, i am nonbinary because i know i'm neither strictly a girl or boy. idk if this makes sense and it's all super confusing but i basically separated who i was from who my family wanted me to be. some people are gnc and cis, some are not gnc and nb, but what helped me the most was seeing if my actions and thoughts were conscious or subconscious and then asking myself where they came from. (2/?)

so "i don't want to marry giacomo giuseppe and have twelve catholic babies because that's not what i want from my life even though it's what's expected of me" vs "i feel uncomfortable being called a woman and having tiddies and all that" idk for me being gnc was a lot easier to verbalize, since i knew i was deviating from a norm. if you're nb, that is your norm, even if it's not how people perceive you. you have lived your whole life as a nb person so it's a bit harder to introspect on.

(3/4) i'm sure this makes no sense and is super confusing, but it's just what helped me. seriously the best thing to know is that identity is ✨fluid✨ and if you are nonbinary now and realize in 5 years you're actually a cis woman or a trans man it doesn't make your experience any less valid. also nonbinary lesbians are fucking awesome and def make my queer ass a lot gayer. (4/4)

sorry it took me a while to get to this ask but thank you for sending me all of this ! this definitely makes sense to me, especially the first part. i think i am gender nonconforming but still a cis girl. like my entire extended family is very christian, which i am not. and almost my entire extended family is straight, which i am not. (i have one gay cousin but we’re v distantly related.) i’m not very girly but i’m also not sporty, i feel like i don’t fit either box. and sometimes i hate having a female form but that’s probably just bc of the male gaze and how uncomfortable i am being seen by men in general. thank u sm 💘

[viscasi]

Ontology

Yes, that sounds about right! I want to emphasize that intramasculine allinity is the same entity across genders, in the sense that (for example) intramasculine allinity in women isn't some separate, different thing from instramasculine allinity in men "in just a different, womanly flavor." (To me, part of the point in distinguishing allinity as independent from gender is to allow people to get away from that perception, if they want to.)

Delicate analogy here, but: this is much like how a cis man and a trans man can both equally be men-- even if their cis/trans status is different, their gender is the same. Likewise, even if two intramasculine peoples' genders are different, their allinity is the same. (So long as that's an understanding of allinity that you guys agree with?)

* Accidentally very long note: "Delicate analogy" because I'm aware that gender identity is incredibly complex and there are trans people who feel their trans identity does actually inform their gender as a whole, who do not want those aspects of their identity separated, unlike the example I gave. There are also other trans identities that I'm aware of that are literally defined by the feeling that one's gender identity is intrinsically distinct from its cisgender counterpart, iirc? Anyway, the transgender experience is diverse and I'm certainly no authority on what that does or should look like for anyone-- I'm just bringing up one kind of trans experience to hopefully help get my point across here. On that note, now that I think about it, I’d imagine that there are situations like those other perspectives on transness with allinity as well-- I bet there are some men who feel that their intrafeminine identity is directly informed by their manhood, that there are some women who feel their intramasculine identity is informed by their womanhood, that some NB people may feel that their intrafem or intramasc identity is informed by their nonbinary identity, and so on;

That said, personally, I would still like to designate allinity as the same entity across genders at least by default, so that we can avoid gender nonconforming allinity identities not being taken as seriously, and then acknowledge that there are exceptions/nuances for some people? Like, if allinity is a neutral entity then it makes it a bit harder to paint a woman's intramasculine identity as the watered-down, lesser version of a man's. Idk. These are all just propositions, by the way, I don't know any of this, I'm just rambling on about hypotheticals at this point. Hopefully y'all get the jist.

Nuances

"These words are not exclusive or permament for the folks who allinity is fluid or simultanous (the butchfemmes, etc.) Someone need not always be gnc fem/masc to count."

Yes, 1000% agree!

Gender Nonconformity v.s. Gender Transgression

Yes, totally agree that shaving isn't inherently feminine or anything. (I think Holly is referencing this post, in addition to just the general idea.)

What I was getting at there is the matter of intent/motive being the distinguishing factor between gender transgression and gender nonconformity, so in this case:

There are women who don't shave their legs because they don't want to (GC women can do this, and so can GNC women).

And there are women who deliberately use the act of not shaving as a visual act of protest against the social demand that they should have to (GC women can do this, and so can GNC women-- this is what I would classify as gender transgression)

And there are situations where both of those things are true for the hypothetical woman in question.

To me, the point in distinguishing these situations is to avoid the too-familiar "you're just doing xyz gender-nonconforming thing because you hate the patriarchy" directed at GNC women just... existing. And, moreover, to give those who are doing those things for other reasons (whatever those may be) language to express that as well, since we all tend to get thrown in one pot.

You bring up an important point though-- different people define "gender nonconformity" in vastly different ways. Is "gender conformity" what women should do, or is it just what is expected? How far do we go with that definition? Is a woman with a job "gender nonconforming?" Is a man who is nurturing "gender non-conforming?" I think those definitions are extreme, and I think these are among the long list of stupid things that shouldn’t have to be considered gender nonconforming, but still are by many people. Depends who you ask.

Thats why I opted to define gender nonconformity as "any deviation from cultural expectations of one's gender," in order to account for the fact that many things considered GNC are arbitrary and subject to change across time and culture.

(On another note, the broadness is also why I think breaking down "hetGNC" into more specific labels will be incredibly helpful for us, because "gender non-conforming" is an INCREDIBLY vague and convoluted term, and many of the people under such a broad umbrella are going to want and need ways to communicate their differences.)

Practicality

I second the notion that everyone should do whatever you want forever! I think that sounds like a really helpful post, Holly, I look forward to reading it!

I also think it’s worth mentioning that hard definitions for identities (or anything, if you want to get philosophical) aren’t really possible anyway. A word acquires meaning through a collective abstract understanding of its use. So, I think we should take notes from what the asexual community did (explained briefly in this post)— we can have external definitions for our terms like the ones we gave above, but as far as who “counts,” our internal definition can be “whoever feels like the term describes them.”

Note

These are my tentative thoughts, but none of them are assertions!!!!! Seriously! I have my own blind spots like anyone else, so please take what I say with a grain of salt and add to the thread (or send an ask) if you disagree or have additional thoughts about anything being said!

IMPORTANT : Terminology Discussion

Note: PLEASE read this even though it is long 😂 I think this foundational work is really important for the growth and maintaining of our community and it can't be put off any longer than it has been!

In the background, I’ve been chatting with Anibelle (@viragoposting), Holly (@hollycantkeeptrackofthedaze) and Zuno (@prof-zunoshade) about the use of the words Virago and hetGNC, and what situations each would cover, versus what still needs separate terminology. We haven’t quite come to a solid, concrete, all-comprehensive answer yet, but I have been thinking it’s time to at least go public with the brainstorming so that maybe we can all figure it out together.

It’s so exciting that our little community has grown so much so quickly! But I think that also means that it’s time: we really need to have some productive conversations about our community and language, so that we can communicate more effectively in the long term.

Here’s the thought process so far:

The Needs

Anibelle (@viragoposting) coined the label Virago a while ago, and she has a post here describing its intended meaning and use. In summary, a Virago is a woman who is one or more of these things: Attracted to feminine men, dominant, and/or masculine.

"Virago" works well as a broad term— but, because it includes women who are technically GNC but still feminine-aligned (e.g., femdom, etc.), that means “Virago” doesn’t work as an identity label to explicitly convey having an “internal sense of masculinity”, which is an important distinction a lot of us are looking for. So that’s where my thought process is: Virago works great as an umbrella term, but we’re gonna need some additional ways to get more specific (for the people who want to.)

If I say “I’m a Virago,” I want to be able to differentiate myself from feminine Viragos, and they probably want a way to differentiate themselves from masc Viragos like me. Also, we're going to need an equivalent label for feminine men. (After this was written, the term “Mollis” has since been proposed— not necessarily as an equivalent/inverse to Virago, but as a nickname of sorts. You can find the discussion about it here!)

I think Virago is a great label and we should absolutely use it. I also think that to describe us all, we are going to need more than one word.

The Reasons

I’ve been thinking about the concept of one’s masculinity/femininity, versus gender identity, versus gender presentation. I think gender nonconformity, in the textbook sense of the word, is separate from masculine(/feminine) identity.

For example: Being muscular is considered gender nonconforming for women. But, still, there are feminine buff women and there are masculine buff women. So, being muscular isn’t actually masculine, even if it is considered gender nonconforming.

So, how do we communicate the difference in identity between these two hypothetical types of people? We can’t say that one of them is GNC and the other is not, because both are technically not conforming to gender norms. So how do we convey the distinction between women who are masculine in identity, versus feminine-identifying women who defy gender roles? (And vice versa for men?)

Additionally, everyone will define masculinity differently. Tale as old as time. For the sake of this conversation, to save breath, assume 'masculinity' and 'femininity' are defined by the person using the label.

The (Proposed) Solutions

Here are my thoughts on what language we can use (and how), in order to include all of these experiences while still being able to differentiate between them:

(It's not pretty but it's also just a rough draft haha)

(Info about the asterisks:

* Virascian and Gynascian (Latin meanings: masculine essence, and feminine essence, respectively) -- These are a couple of proposals for alternative terminology for intramasculine women/intrafeminine men. They could be used as a “sapphic/achillean” equivalent for hetGNC people.

* Unnamed section for men, equivalent to Virago: Currently, this identity hasn't been officially coined or named. Given the historical origin of the word Virago, I'm not quite sure how to go about making an equivalent for men. If anyone has ideas, voice them!)

(Bonus info: the Latin in “Intrafeminine/Intramasculine” about translates to “inner feminine / inner masculine”, in case anyone is wondering where I got that from too. And my justification for the etymology/necessity of the word “Allinity” can be found in this post.)

What do you guys think?

This is the most important part: Community discussion.

Do you have any questions/concerns about the propositions outlined here?

Do you like the new words, or should we keep looking for different ones? (Specify which ones?)

Should anything be changed or added?

Any other comments/ideas?

[autoraton]

18, 26, 27 :)

18 . Are you questioning your identity?

When aren’t I? I changed from identifying as ace + bi to just queer a few months ago, because I had a weird epiphany where I realised that sexuality is super fluid and prone to change, and that using more specific labels was uncomfortable because it made me feel like I couldn’t change without making a big deal out of it.

With just being queer, it doesn’t matter if I start wanting sex, or stop wanting any kind of romantic relationship, or if I begin only liking girls, or identifying as gnc, etc etc, you know? It gives me a lot more freedom to just keep questioning my identify in a comfortable space.

26 . Some characters you headcanon as LGBT+?

Sexuality-wise, Fabian has big bi energy. Gorgug doesn’t ever really settle for a label or officially come out, he just likes whoever he likes, regardless of gender. Adaine is aro-ace and indifferent to sex. Riz hasn’t figured out where he lies on the aro-ace spectrum, but is inclined to get crushes on his guy friends. Also, he’s sex-repulsed.

Gender-wise, I don’t have any set headcanons because I love all of the trans and gnc Bad Kids headcanons I’ve seen so much that at this point none of them are cis. FTM Fabian is wonderful. Someone sent me an ask about MTF Adaine a while back and no, I haven’t stopped thinking about it. I’ve seen content for nonbinary Gorgug that is just top tier, and I also love FTM Gorgug too. GNC Kristen and Fig is fantastic, as well as genderfluid Fig. Also, trans boy Riz.

And I haven’t thought that much about the ACOC gang, but Ruby, Jet and Saccharina are all wlw, and Liam is aroace.

27 . Some LGBT+ pairings you ship?

I mean, at this point we all know how I feel about Gorgug and Riz. Fabian and Ragh is also super cute, and Gorgug and Ragh is super cute, and Fabian and Gorgug is super cute, and Fabian and Gorgug and Ragh is super cute, and — well, yeah, you get the gist of it.

I don’t have any solid feelings for ACOC ships, but... I can’t deny there’s some unreciprocated, repressed stuff between Theo and Amethar.

Wanna hear more about my queer epiphanies and how no character is cishet? Send me an ask, buckaroo!

[genderpunktheo]

I feel caged in by 'cis' but also 'trans' and 'nonbinary'. But i feel if i don't label im not welcome in nonbinary and gnc spaces (those spaces always run together and i think it's wonderful tbh, cause sometimes there's not a clear cut line, but you have to label yourself SOMETHING and im like...dude they all feel like a cage, and im not sure its bc im not cis, it's just i HATE labelling my gender id so tightly. Does that make sense? Anyone else?

A lot of people struggle with labels - for some of us, they’re really useful ways to describe our experiences, for others they aren’t and that’s okay. I know a lot of people who don’t label their sexuality and instead choose to “go with the flow” so to speak. It can be the same with gender for many people. 

I’d like to clarify that “cis” and “trans” aren’t gender labels - that would be things like “man” “woman” “nonbinary” “agender” etc. that give a label to what your gender (or lack of gender) is. They’re names of genders. “Cis” and “trans” are adjectives describing your experience with that gender e.g. cis men and trans men are both men but have different experiences in claiming that identity. 

It’s a little unclear from your ask whether you aren’t sure about what your actual gender is or just unsure about what gender experience to claim but I’m gonna assume that it’s both?? 

It’s probably more helpful for you to worry less about things like “cis” “GNC” and “trans” and instead to just focus on what makes you comfortable and happy, regardless of labels. 

I will say however that “cis” isn’t really a label you can opt-out of. If someone still fully identifies with their assigned gender then they are cis. That’s a fact about how you experience gender, not an identity - in the same way that I don’t consider being “able-bodied” to be part of my identity but it is a fact about my experience and the privilege I hold because of it. 

Having said that, it sounds like you don’t fully identify with your assigned gender unless I’m misunderstanding you. And you don’t have to pick a label for that. 

I know some people use the term ‘non-cis’ - rather than picking a rigid label describing what they definitely are, they choose this more fluid label that describes what they’re not and leaves what they might be open. 

“Genderqueer” is also a label that means many different things to many different people - it was the label I used when I first came out because it was incredibly broad and left me room to explore and figure out what made me happy. For a while, I didn’t identify as nonbinary or as trans and just identified as “genderqueer” in order to express that I wasn’t cis but was still figuring myself out until I found more specific labels that were comfortable for me. 

Or you can just not label yourself at all. 

On the other hand, if you are cis you can be that and GNC - refusing to conform to ideas and expectations of your gender.

I hope you find what works for you anon ❤︎

Note: Genderqueer can, of course, be a gender label and full identity in and of itself. My experience with it is not everyone’s experience. But by nature, it’s a broad term trying to include a wide spectrum of identity so it’s a very useful phrase for people who don’t want to be caged.

[alibinary]

Possibilities / possible examples

I’ve seen a lot of people confused about how can they know whether they are mesobinary, viabinary, exobinary or ideobinary, if it’s not solely dictated by gender.

So here are some examples that might help:

Possible exobinary examples

⭑ Lyon is a maverique. Lyon's dysphoria makes them unable to decide on what kind of body they want, because they don't want a "feminine", "masculine", "androgynous" or "neutral" body. Lyon feels erased when people act like people who transition must be either transmasculine or transfeminine, or when people judge their presentation as masculine, feminine or androgynous. Lyon identifies as exobinary because they feel like they are completely out of the binary.

⭑ Allie is polygender. Some of faer genders are masculine or feminine, but most of faer genders are xenogenders, like caelgender, a gender relating to space, and gendoux, a gender relating to pastels. Fae feels like faer genders aren't acknowledged enough; most people who talk about them just do it to say they can't really exist, and Allie's local trans community has shunned faer for talking about faer "weird genders" instead of sticking to using gender identity just to define the body fae wants. Even if Allie has masculine and feminine genders, fae feels like the biggest hurdle fae faces is the lack of acknowledgement for different identities that don't rely on the binary at all, and this is why Allie only identifies as exobinary.

⭑ Yuri is genderless. Yuri identifies as exobinary and wants exobinary spaces because Yuri hates being gendered in any way, and even a lot of nonbinary-specific stuff acts like people can only be man-adjacent, woman-adjacent, feminine, masculine and/or androgynous.

⭑ Stela is a nonbinary girl. But ze is very political regarding hir identity; ze only identifies as a girl for political reasons, and would prefer people acknowledged the possibility of a world without the influence of binary genders. This is why Stela identifies as exobinary.

Possible ideobinary examples

⭑ Violli is an alteandrogyne; someone whose gender is androgyne, but a version of androgyne which is on a mirror universe/on a different plane of existence. Violli doesn't feel like eir identity is that related to binary genders and isn't comfortable with the idea that eir gender is just "in the middle" between male and female, but ey also doesn't see eir gender as completely independent from the binary, so ey just identifies as ideobinary within the alibinary system.

⭑ Giuli is a demiboy. He has a partial connection to the concept of boy, but he doesn't consider himself boy-adjacent. Giuli considers his gender to be a nonbinary mess, with some of this mess pointing to the idea of boyness and boyhood. He considers himself ideobinary because he doesn't feel close to a binary gender and considers his nonbinaryness more important than his boyness, but his gender relies on the concept of being a boy in some ways.

⭑ Jack is an antigirl/ungirl. This means xeir gender is defined as an opposite of girl. Jack doesn't consider xeir gender to be anywhere close to boy, just away from girl, and so xe has trouble figuring out xeir gender presentation and desired transition. Jack doesn't feel like xeir gender identity is free from the influence of binary genders, but also doesn't consider xemself close to binary genders, so xe identifies as ideobinary.

⭑ Wyr is genderfae, which means ver gender changes from time to time, but never to masculine genders. Wyr is sometimes a woman, or partly a woman, but a lot of the time, ver experiences genders that exist completely outside of the binary, such as maverique, neutrois or stargender, and sometimes Wyr is graygender or genderless. Ve also experiences feminine nonbinary genders sometimes, such as femgender. Wyr identifies as ideobinary and exobinary, since ve identifies with being outside of the binary and with having some relationship to the binary but not being close to it.

Possible mesobinary examples

⭑ Robin's gender is in-between woman and proxvir; a gender that is similar to man/male, but separate. To keep it simple, Robin just identifies as androgyne. Even so, zey feels like treating male and female as opposite universes that can't interact together in any way is invalidating zeir gender, and zey doesn't fit in very well with "fuck gender" jokes or "gender is not a thing" rhetoric. Robin describes zeir desired transition and presentation as transandrogynous, because zey wants to be in a state in-between binary genders, although zey finds it hard to find resources that don't equate androgyny with soft masculinity. Because of those things, Robin feels like mesobinary fits zem better than other terms within the alibinary system.

⭑ Jyoti is a neulier/gender neutral/femil/maverique polygender person. This means sie has many genders, and that one of hir genders is woman-like and entirely neutral, another is neutral, another is woman-like but masculine, and another is not male, female or neutral, but is a specific nonbinary gender that exists. Jyoti hates being seen as feminine and is undergoing hormone replacement therapy to be seen as more masculine, even if that means sie may get mistaken for a man. Even so, sie is not a man, and half of hir genders are woman-like, so sie would like to be able to participate in woman's spaces or identify with labels meant for women. This causes some problems, since people want Jyoti to "pick" between identifying as a trans man or as a cis woman, when sie is neither. Jyoti identifies as mesobinary because, even though sie isn't a man at all gender-wise and isn't much of a woman either, sie feels like hir experiences and struggles are close to those of people who are in-between binary genders.

⭑ Taylor is a man/woman genderfluid person. Taylor doesn't relate much to nonbinary-centric terms, such as diamoric or trixic, because hu is almost always either a man or a woman. However, hu doesn't think it's fair for hum to use terms such as sapphic or achillean on profiles since hu won't change those every time hus gender changes, and hu feels awkward on men-only/women-only spaces because people assume you can only be one and not be other the next day. Taylor identifies as mesobinary because, even if hu isn't "in the middle" between binary genders, hu feels like hu experiences similar issues to those who are.

⭑ Eri is a librandrogyne, which means voi is agender with a connection to androgyny. Eri wants voids androgyny acknowledged/respected, even though voi doesn't consider voidself as someone with a gender. Because of this, Eri identifies mainly as mesobinary, even if voi also identifies a bit with being exobinary and ideobinary.

Possible viabinary examples

⭑ Myriam is transfeminine. Myriam is generally fine with being seen/treated as a binary woman, but kit also wants kits nonbinaryness to be acknowledged, especially within nonbinary, trans and queer spaces. This is why kit identifies as viabinary.

⭑ Lex is a mutare, which means neir gender is always changing to something else. However, Lex doesn't mind being seen as a man in general, and some of the genders ne goes through are male-related genders anyways. Lex identifies as viabinary because even though neir gender identity is fluid and has multiple possibilities, ne doesn't like the idea of completely letting go from a binary identity and presentation.

⭑ Karo is a faesari: someone who's on the gender neutral spectrum, but who has a strong attachment to femininity. Gem doesn't really feel like a woman at all, but would like to be able to not care about being seen as a woman without getting or feeling invalidated for "not trying hard enough" to "look/act more nonbinary". Karo identifies as viabinary for that, but also as ideobinary, since gem fits that definition too.

⭑ Aldenir is a melle. As in, her gender is male, but not masculine at all; it's feminine instead. Aldenir considers her gender to be different from binary male, but related to it, and would like to be respected as a nonbinary person (instead of "just GNC") and as someone who isn't and doesn't want to be considered androgynous, neutral, transfeminine and/or a woman. Because of this, Aldenir identifies as viabinary.

Notes

⭑ The examples given are examples. Not everyone who is any of the gender identities listed will define them exactly as I have defined them here, not everyone who has those experiences needs to choose the labels or pronouns I've chosen here, etc.

⭑ These are *possible* examples because I want to stress there is not a huge pool of people who have defined themselves as exobinary/mesobinary/ideobinary/viabinary yet, these examples are all made up so I can show people what I am going for with this system.

⭑ Feel free to tag this blog on posts about using the alibinary system that you want to be shared!