#Anyway Tim vs Duke when dc

[oifaaa]

I think one of the reasons why people think Duke is the least insane or most normal member of the batfam (aside from the just not knowing much about him) is bc hes the only bat who hasn't had beef with another member of the family I mean Duke even gets along with Jason - anyway my solution to this is that Duke should get to physically fight another member of the family and my personal pick is obviously Tim Drake

[necrotic-nephilim]

@sasheneskywalker i love when you enable me to ramble about things because oh my god do i have thoughts.

so recently, i made a post discussing the phenomena of DC x DP and DC x MLB crossovers and why they exist and part of that post was discussing how largely speaking, at least half, if not more of the Batfamily fandom doesn't read the comics. if they interact with canon DC material, it's adaptations that are their own sequestered universes and oftentimes not remotely comic accurate or seeking to be. the most obvious example is the Young Justice cartoon. i'm adding a cut to this post because it just got so long i'm so sorry.

a lot of times, when people are discussing the "why" of this oversaturation of fanon-only fandom, they blame Wayne Family Adventures. and i think, to a point, i agree WFA is responsible for a boom in this fandom. but as someone who's been in the fandom long before we had WFA, to me it's the other way around. WFA was DC's way of meeting the demand for this easy-to-get-into, easy-to-consume content about the Batfamily that predicates itself on the comics just enough to be vaguely the same characters, but has a more sitcom, slice-of-life sort of vibe so DC could profit off of this section of the fanbase that otherwise wasn't consuming its primary material. and well, it's definitely worked. not only that, but i have a weird theory that the decline in the MCU also led to the rise in the Batfamily fandom. when you consider the fan content that made the MCU popular within fandom, it's that 2012 "they all live in Avengers Tower and Thor is eating poptarts and Clint is in the vents and there are movie nights every Friday" sort of vibe. those were the fics that were a hallmark of the fandom. and as the MCU has strayed from well... quality content in general, but specifically well-thought-out crossover content where characters can have their own arcs but also exist in a wider story where they clearly care about each other, that fandom was sort of homeless. so where do you go, if you like a superhero found family where you can have villains for angst but also stick them all in one big family-like home for silly crack and have a plethora of options for gay ships? well. you go to the Batfamily. if you write a crack/fluff Batfamily genfic with silly vibes and low stakes instead of say, a fic about a very specific comic issue even if it's a popular comic, you're *going* to get more traction for the former. because the fanbase largely just isn't reading the comics.

and i feel... complicated about this. because on one hand, Don't Like Don't Read has been a tenet of my fandom experience. i'm very pro-fandom and that includes fandom content i don't like. and to an extent, i do think this sort of should apply to Batfamily fanon. i enjoy having my moments with other comic purists, giggling over exceptionally painful OOC headcanons or even facepalming in pain over some content but it is on me to not interact with that content. you don't make fandom a better place by being hostile to fans who engage with canon in ways you don't approve of. and frankly? we as comic readers are not going to get non-comic fans to read the comics by being asshats to them. no one is going to want to pick up any comic if we get a superiority complex about it. and also, i feel like we're all lying to ourselves a little bit insisting comics are so, so easy to get into. they're not. we can just all agree, they're really not. i've been single-handedly helping my sister get into comics, specifically Wonder Woman and no matter how simple i make it, i watch her get frustrated trying to understand what pre-Crisis and post-Crisis and New-52 and Flashpoint and all these things mean and what a retcon vs a reboot is and what a Crisis Event is and what the hell Diana's current backstory even *is*. sure, you can give someone a beginner list of comics to start with and slowly dip their toes in the water but sooner or later, *something* is going to confuse them. comics as a medium straight up aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. and if someone *just* wants to read silly fluffy fanfiction about the Batfamily, i can't entirely begrudge them for not wanting to take the hours and hours out of their day to understand this medium. it's not an accessible medium to get into. "read this and this, but this run is out of print and this run wasn't collected in trades at all but also make sure you read that event in order and this is a good comic but the backstory in it is retconned and you *have* to read this it's so important but it's also really bad because the author kind of sucks" sounds. ridiculous for someone who like. just wants to read some stuff about Nightwing. sometimes, we all make reading comics sort of sound like a chore, not a hobby.

so my point is, i do extend some grace to Batfamily fanon for existing. i think my biggest gripe is, as i said in my other post, misuse of tags (if you're not creating content about comics, maybe you don't need the comics fandom tag on Ao3, just the all media types umbrella tag) and my far bigger gripe: when panels are taken out of context to support fanon only headcanons. if i could impart *anything* onto the Batfamily fandom as a comic fan it'd be this: if you haven't *read* the comic, don't spread the panel. if you don't even know what comic it's *from*, don't spread the panel. it's fine to use comic panels to discuss your headcanons, but so often i see someone spreading a comic panel from a comic they haven't read, and when asked where it's from, they can't source it. a silly example that comes to mind is a post going around, taking a panel where Dick, in his internal monologue goes "here comes the sun. do do do do." and the post is claiming it's from him getting buried alive. when that panel comes from Nightwing (1996) #140, and he gets buried alive in Nightwing (1996) #127, two completely different moments frankensteined together. if you're going to not read the comics, that's completely fine, but unless you're sure of the source and the context, panels shouldn't be spread around. i'm sick of this specifically happening to Red Robin (2009), with ppl claiming Tim has totally killed people because he blew up some of Ra's' bases, when those panels within context, make it clear he gave everyone time to escape. and in a later arc in that very comic, Tim grapples with the idea of murdering Captain Boomerang, and *specifically chooses not to*, because he doesn't agree with murder, even against the person who has hurt him the most. if you'd like to write fanfiction where Tim is pro-murder and has done some sketch things, i'm totally on board and would probably like to read it. but there's no need to pretend it's canon from a few panels you saw out of context.

beyond that, i think it's not *entirely* correct to say that fanon is harmless. whenever i see very WFA-positive posts, they often default to the argument that WFA is fun and silly, and comic fans are killjoys for not liking it. which. i think is complicated because the issue is, WFA and fanon don't exist in a vacuum. if you like WFA power to you, i don't think it's the worst thing ever, but i do think it's degrading to these characters because honestly? they feel incompetent in the webtoon. it's one thing if WFA was solely a slice-of-life sort of deal, just having silly episodes where Bruce is taking on a PTA mom or they're all fighting for the last cookie. but when WFA attempts to take on more serious plots with these characters, it *fundamentally* falls flat in understanding them. i get it, Bruce comforting Jason having a panic attack because a noise reminded him of the crowbar felt cute in a microcosm, but i'm so serious when i say that storyline destroyed how like. half of this fandom understands Jason Todd's relationship to his trauma. it doesn't understand how he reacts when he's triggered, what coping mechanisms he seeks out, and how he would handle Bruce comforting him. even if i can believe for a brief moment Jason *would* be triggered by something like that, him running and trying to hide and then getting a hug from Bruce to make it okay is just. painful. WFA needs everything to be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow. so even when it starts to tackle interesting concepts, it makes them fall flat with its need to be soft, low stakes, hurt/comfort. there was a two-parter episode that dealt with the complicated mutual hatred/jealousy between Tim and Damian that *almost* really interested me because for once, it felt like the webtoon wanted to explore canon messy dynamics. but of course, it had to be fixed with one conversation and a hug. you don't mend the *years* of issues these characters have like that. WFA isn't in character because these characters are hyperbole cartoonified versions of themselves to fit within the medium and be a cute happy family.

because that right there, is the crux of it. the Batfamily fanon seeks to simplify the Batfamily and force them into a nuclear family. there are so many fantastic posts on here discussing how the nuclear family-ification of the Batfam is eroding decades worth of complex histories so i won't go too far into that. but what i will say is that there's this need, in the Batfamily fandom, for the Batfamily to exist as a unit. they are a *family*. (honestly i think calling it the Batfamily is a misnomer and has been for years but we're in too deep now.) they exist to each other first, and any teams or friends they have come secondary to this family unit. you can *specifically* see this demonstrated in what headcanons are becoming popular these days. i have an entire lengthy meta in my drafts about how i *loathe* the "the Batfamily meets the Justice League" genre of fanfic because it makes no *sense*. in order to have this genre of fic exist, you must operate under the assumption that no one in the League, or adjacent to the League, knows the Batfamily exists and are thus utterly shocked to discover Batman has kids. and to make *that* work, you have to strip *every single Batfamily member* of such important dynamics and friendships so you can lock them all in Gotham for their whole lives. Dick can't have the Titans, Tim can't have Young Justice, Duke & Cass can't have the Outsiders, Jason can't have the Outlaws, Damian can't have the Supersons, Babs can't have the Birds of Prey, and so on. because if they had these relationships, they would be known to the League. the Batfamily fandom doesn't care about this, it's just "silly fanfiction", it's not trying to be serious. but how can you say you like Dick Grayson as a character if you don't understand the Titans *are* his family? at some points of his life, moreso than the Batfamily even is. it is constantly repeated to us in most comics with Dick how much the Titans mean to him. he *needs* them to be who he is. the same extends to every other Batfamily member, most of which have been full League members at this point. but in fanon, that doesn't matter. the Batfamily are a sequestered unit first, and all of those side relationships are secondary and easy to toss away, if it makes your fanfic work better.

and because they have to be a unit first, you have these forced relationships that dump years of actual canon material for the sake of making them get along. the Batfamily fandom has its favorites and well. it's no secret it's usually the boys. Jason and Tim by *far* stand out as fandom faves so, their dynamic is a heavily explored one. it does matter that in canon they don't tend to get along and especially don't see each other as family. what matters is that you can push dynamics onto them. and so fanon gets all twisted up about which Robin Tim actually idolized as a kid (Dick) and what member of the Batfamily is pro-murder but still an older sibling figure to him and looks out for him (Helena, or if you want the dynamic of once tried to harm Tim but they've reconciled, Jean-Paul) in favor of who's the most popular. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian are always going to be the standouts for popularity, but it's specifically Jason and Tim who are getting fanonized the most. and that's because really, we don't have much canon content of Tim that *isn't* the comics. for Dick you've got Young Justice (tv), for Damian you've got the DCAMU, for Jason you've sort of got the Under The Red Hood movie, but Tim sort of lingers in this limbo. (yes, he's in Young Justce (tv) and Titans (live action) but in neither is he the main character nor given much depth) so, he gets a *lot* projected onto him and has become fanonized. and even with Jason's animated movies, you don't see him interact with Tim, so people build it from the ground up how they want to see it, disregarding of canon comics. i think it's what makes him so popular in the first place- he's malleable into whatever you want or need him to be.

and of course, the fanon ignores other characters in the Batfamily it doesn't know about. i feel like you could create a tier list of Batfamily characters by their popularity, going from the fandom main characters: Tim, Jason, Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian. to the underrated: Steph, Duke, Babs, Cass. to the forgotten about unless they're convenient for a story: Kate, the Foxes, Helena Wayne, Carrie, Selina, Harper Row, Maps, Minhkhoa Khan. to the absolutely unknown: Helena Bertinelli, Jean-Paul Valley, Onyx Adams, the Clovers, Julia Pennyworth. it's not lost on me that the ignored characters tend to be women and people of color. which is both a canon and fanon problem, DC will continue adding interesting characters to the Batfamily, play with them for a few years, then drop them to default to the "Batboys" again. and it's a vicious cycle of the fandom only caring about the "Batboys", and thus people entering the fandom via fanon osmosis won't have content about the other characters, therefore, they won't be interested in those characters enough to create it, and it's just this ouroboros consuming itself, no matter how much canon content we have of these other characters. and it's ridiculous just how large the Batfamily is becoming because of this, which is why i'm a pre-Flashpoint fan, because then the Batfamily was contained enough to actually feel like a family with every character having nuances relationships with each other, but i digress because those thoughts could be their own post.

and the thing about fanon is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. DC has started turning the comics to accommodate for what fans are asking for, because fans will beg and beg for content they're not going to consume. Tim Drake: Robin had Tim as a coffee drinker because that's the fanon accepted headcanon. and the resolution of the recent Gotham War arc was for Bruce to buy this new manor for everyone to move in and call him. nevermind that most of these characters have their own homes and have zero reason to be moving in with Bruce. Tim had his marina in Tim Drake: Robin, Dick has Bludhaven, Cass and Steph have their little side of town in Batgirls (2022), and so on. these characters are being forced together as a unit, as one big happy family living together, to appease what non-comic fans want and it's damaging comic relationships. Robin: Knight Terrors saw Jason and Tim team up and working together, which i've seen varying opinions on but i personally despised. their interactions made zero sense for any of their canon history, but it appeases them being this close sibling relationship that fanon acts like they are. also the fears they faced in their respective knight terrors didn't make sense for either character and *only* worked as a moment of bringing them together so they could reassure each other and have this weird dreamscape bonding moment. the canon is bending itself to the will of fanon rather than building on the pre-existing complex relationships. Tim barely even gets along with his most important team in Dark Crisis: Young Justice because it seems the only important relationships the Batfamily can have is with each other. and when we do see them outside of the Batfamily, it only seems to be to relive the glory days like with World's Finest: Teen Titans, instead of developing them as they currently exist. this isn't recent in the comics, it feels like you can trace it back to the New-52, but it does feel a *lot* worse over the recent years. WFA is fine when it exists in its own bubble, but the simple truth is, DC content never exists on its own. the adaptations will reflect back onto the comics. (the damage the Young Justice cartoon has done to some characters should honestly be studied) and so it does frustrate me a bit when fanon-only or adaptation-only fans act like we're being nothing but killjoys for being frustrated with this. since they don't read the comics, they don't see how the comics are suffering as a result of this.

people argue about what's out of character for the comics they don't even read. i'm sorry, but "bad dad Bruce" is consistently canon. that man is just kind of shitty. when you take someone who has the drive he has, who has this need for the Mission first, who needs a teenager in spandex next to him to keep him off the ledge, that guy is sort of going to be a shitty father figure. he just is. not on purpose or with malice, but when you compare him to any other dad in a big DC family, he sure takes the cake. it's why characters like Oliver Queen tend to *really* fucking hate Bruce for how he treats his kids. Bruce loves fiercely, but he doesn't do well with putting that love first. and his love is a controlling one, he is very particular about controlling how others in the Batfamily are "allowed" to operate. it's what drives the wedge between him and Dick, it's why Steph is never a true daughter to him. (besides the reason of her needing to be a love interest to Tim first, anyway-) i've never understood the massive outcry of people reacting to Bruce kinda being shitty in comics they're not reading. there are some moments that get ridiculously OOC with how cartoonishly evil he is (the whole Gotham War arc and that... complicated mess with Jason) but largely if you want sitcom loving nuclear father Bruce, you have to accept that is a fanon thing, not a canon one. the Batfamily being a nuclear family in *general* is fanon. most of the "Batkids" don't actually see Bruce in a particularly fatherly light and begging for moments where he calls them his kids or they call him dad outside of incredibly specific circumstances is just OOC.

it's getting harder and harder to exist peacefully in this fandom it feels like, if you don't comply to the standard fanon has set. i'm happy people are having fun with their blorbos, even if in ways i dislike, but that "harmless fandom fun" does ripple it's way back to canon, eventually. so i end up pretty tangled with my feelings because are fans at fault for DC making these poor decisions? probably not, but it certainly feels like an unfortunate cause-and-effect situation whether at the end of the day, nobody is happy. and of course, i know some fanon-only fans are striving to be more canon accurate and care about canon dynamics more than others, but for them it's always going to be an uphill battle with the above-mentioned out-of-context panels thrown around and ever-pervasive fanon overtaking anything that's truly seeking to be canon compliant. so really, it sometimes feels like we're all losing.

[jankillbride]

everyday i wake up and think about what dc vs vampires could've been

[bug-bites]

batfam beach episode?? real not clickbait no glue no borax??

cw: nothing! pure vacation beach fluff (p≧w≦q) also barely proofread,,,

pairing: gn!reader x batfam (NOT ALL AT ONCE.)

characters: dick grayson, jason babygirl todd, cassandra cain, tim drake, damian wayne (all intended to be interpreted as either romantic or platonic unless its damian. ik in some comic runs he's like an adult but hes like permanently 12 in my head and i dont fw that :/)

a/n: im back with a new dc obsession tee hee (soz to everyone who wanted more abt the cod guys or spiderverse im comicsmaxxing and redhoodpilled) will probably make a part 2 w/ bruce, babs, steph, and duke eventually :3c

Dick Grayson haha dick

oh he loves the beach so much

the sand beneath his feet make him feel nostalgic from when he would practice tumbling with his parents in the circus ring i think there's sand in circus rings right? I dunno someone fact check me on that one

the victim of being buried in the sand, always asks for a mermaid tail but ends up with something like massive sand tits (courtesy of either tim or jason), he laughs it off anyways

somehow gets the worst tan lines. He wore a swim shirt one time and never again because the tan lines looked SO BAD which is a total shame because he tans gorgeously

will beg to do play shoulder wars i have no clue if this is the right name, again fact check me for this thing where you get a piggyback ride from someone and you try to knock someone whos also getting a piggyback ride over in the water

you’re on his shoulders since bro is strong asf and you square up against tim and damian

obviously you lose because hello that's damian wayne we are talking about but at least its fun!!

cass and jason are forever the undefeated champions of shoulder wars though, that goes without saying

Cassandra Cain

shes always seen beach episodes in animes that damian practically dragged her into watching so when she gets to actually go to a beach she is so excited peak sibling bonding is dragging your siblings into your interests

loves building sandcastles and writing things in the sand, watching it get washed away, and then do it all over again

hold her hand and jump over waves together on the shore and she will be the giggliest and happiest human being alive on planet earth

but out of all the beach activities she loves beach volleyball

shes actually scarily good at beach volleyball for someone who has never played volleyball before

dick thought it would be fun to teach her and have a friendly match between him and bruce vs you and cass

yeah bruce and dick were COOKED. huffing and puffing like they have a vendetta against the three little pigs at the end of it while cass is like “this is so fun, lets go again!”

ends the day with a little sunset stroll along the shore i need her so bad you do not understand please bbyg ill treat u soooo well

Jason Todd

beaches are fun on paper for him, in person not so much

PERSONAL HC INCOMING! He gets migraines after the lazarus pit so he can only have so much fun before needing to lie face down with his head covered with a beach towel to make everything less overwhelming or he wears sunglasses the entire time

he brings a book to read at the beach and stays in the shade the entire time yes he is that bitch

usually at home in the comfort of his little library he likes to read things that have an impact on him or just stuff that makes him want to analyze deeper. think books like frankenstein, lord of the flies, all quiet on the western front, just generally heavier stuff

but his vacation books? totally different. usually something super light, maybe a shitty romance book that you find in walmart which are clearly just results of book packaging, or a some booktok recommendation he got for shits and giggles because it just was so laughably bad, maybe even a childhood feel-good book like percy jackson or the little prince (mostly just books he would not grieve over if sand permanently got in between the pages)

he tried reading a colleen hoover book once and honest to God wanted to toss it into the ocean HE WOULD HATE HER BOOKS AND I WILL DIE ON THIS HILL

but out of everything he likes watching you enjoy yourself, his book wasnt that important anyways. show him that funky sand dollar you found or that really cool piece of seaglass, he’s probably gonna bring it home with him. a little keepsake along with the millions of grains of sand that never seem to go away

Tim Drake

Burns so easily

At first its kinda cute, like hes asking you to help him get that spot on his back he just cant seem to reach and its just a little sweet moment between you two as you rub the sunscreen into his sore muscles

But then it happens again. And again. And again to the point when he goes up to you, you automatically reach for the tube of SPF 100+ 

I just know his vitamin d deficiency goes crazy

Leaves the beach looking like a lobster, sunburnt, a crazy bump on his head from getting hit with a volleyball, and some god awful sunglasses tan lines

Overall, beach activities are not really his thing bros job is NAWT beach

Enjoys the boardwalk a lot more than the beach itself, likes the touristy stuff but still goes to the beach because dick loves it and he loves his older brother :(

Damian Wayne

i feel like he wouldn’t care too much for typical beach stuff. like at every beach that has sand and decently clean water you can do most beach activities

one thing that is never 100% consistent at all beaches is what lives on the beaches. this boy will spend hours staring into tidepools 

bruce was lowk concerned because his son did not gaf about normal beach activities that kids do but eventually he reached a point where he was like "i mean at least hes having fun and being safe"

i feel like talia would always show him books of sea creatures when he was little but he never ended up being able to see them in their natural habitat someone take this boy to an aquarium now

tells you fun facts about each creature you come across

will scold you if you take a shell from the beach, definitely says some shit like “how would you feel if someone ran into your house and just took your bed?”  based though, leave shells at the beach yall! taking them is like bad for the ecosystem

brings his notebook around and has little sketches of the sea creatures

even though typical beach activities arent his favourite, he doesnt hate it. he likes that he can catch a break from all the vigilante stuff and spend time with his family as a family and not just as a team

loves scuba diving. idk it just somehow makes sense and i think he would look really stupid in a wet suit

also i feel like he would never mention it but in his mind hes fully thinking "this is just like a beach episode" but he would rather die than say it out loud FUCKING NERDDD

[cephalog0d]

Okay, but like. There's the whole joke about Bruce recruiting children to be his sidekicks, but honestly there's only really one that fits that.

And it's Jason. And the whole story there is, frankly, unhinged. Aaaaand then he died.

(I'm specifically talking about "first post-crisis origin stories" here because Jason and Dick, in particular, have both had multiple major retcons and revisions over the years, and some of them dramatically change how things happened.)

Like okay. Going backwards, you've got Duke who joined/led a whole Robin-based gang at a time when Bruce wasn't even Batman. You've got Damian and Cass, who were both literally born into the world of masks and capes and heroes and villains, so they weren't ever really not going to be part of it. Steph might have taken inspiration from previous heroes but she made her own identity and repeatedly refused to stop involving herself in the vigilante lifestyle. Tim, obviously, basically strong-armed Batman into letting him be Robin, despite Batman's protests.

Dick's a little more complicated just because there's so many versions, because that's what 80 years of comics and multiple universe reboots will do, and there's kind of a general trend that earlier pre-crisis versions were more of Batman being like "hello, child, would you like to be my sidekick" and later versions have leaned harder and harder into the idea that Dick was absolutely going to do this anyway, regardless of what Batman had to say about it. But even in the first post-crisis version, the flashback in Batman Year 3, Dick says he wants to find a way to keep people like that from hurting others again. When Alfred questions Bruce's offer to train him, Bruce says that Dick should learn to do things the right way if he's going to do it. It's not hard to extrapolate that, much like later versions of the origin story, Dick was going to get himself into this one way or another. (Batman (1940) #437)

And then there's Jason. Whose backstory has also had a lot of (sometimes major) revisions over the years (remember when his adoption was, like, some kind of Joker-originated long con? Fucken Nu52, man). But the original post-crisis version is pretty straightforward. Steals Batman's tires, gets caught and sent to Ma Gunn's Secret Criminal School, intervenes when Batman goes to investigate, immediately gets offered the chance to be Robin based entirely on that.

Which is itself kind of unhinged. That Bruce saw this kid who was living on his own stealing tires and went "Hey you would make a good Robin" as his very first instinct.

But if you've never read Jason's post-crisis origin, or it's been a while, it's honestly even more unhinged than that because that arc starts with Dick getting "fired" as Robin specifically for the reason that he got shot by Joker and Bruce freaked out about how the Robin identity has too many enemies and therefore Dick, a legal adult with approximately a decade of training and experience, should not use the identity anymore.

(And it's specifically about the Robin identity, in this version, because when Dick says he's not going to stop the crime fighting thing Bruce's response is basically "I know and I didn't expect you to". Honestly I could also say a lot about this version of the Robin/Nightwing transition vs. later ones and how this one definitely feels like the Heavy Hand of DC Editorial in the fact that they had no contact for so long afterwards, because the interaction really doesn't feel like it warrants that in this case compared to some later versions, but that's a whole other too-long ramble.) (Batman (1940) #408)

And then a few weeks later Bruce turns around and picks up a random kid, a literal child, and goes "Hey you would make a good Robin!"

And I think a lot about how fucking wild that is. And it's not like the people writing just didn't notice. Dick's big argument with Bruce when he finally comes back to Gotham and meets Jason isn't about the fact that Bruce took in another kid, or even necessarily about Dick feeling proprietary over the Robin identity, the thing he's angry about is that Bruce said it was too dangerous for him, an adult, someone who has trained with Batman for a decade and was already highly physically trained before that for his whole life, to be Robin, and now Bruce has turned around and painted that target onto some random new kid. He pushes, repeatedly, trying to get Bruce to justify himself and this absolutely irresponsible decision, and Bruce gives a lot of answers about how Jason was on a bad path and needed this outlet and eventually just admits that he missed having a partner. (Batman (1940) #416)

And like. Dick's right, is the thing. He is 1000% in the right in this argument. If he can't be Robin anymore because of the danger, how in the hell is it anything like a good idea to hand it over to someone way younger, way less trained, way less experienced, and expect that that wouldn't end in tragedy?

And then it did.

And yeah, Bruce, it is kinda a lot of your fault.

[pluckyredhead]

☕️batfam (not each character, but your opinion of them as a family both in canon vs. canon)

I think the version of them that you see in things like WFA and a lot of fandom stuff is delightful and entertaining. Don't get me wrong - a lot of the fandom stuff is also wildly wrong and infuriating. But there are writers who do a great job with a more fannish take on the Batfamily and I enjoy their work. (It is usually...painfully obvious who has actually read the comics and who only knows the Batfam via tumblr posts.)

The Batfamily in mainstream continuity is...not that. The characters are significantly more traumatized and rarely joke around with each other. They're also not a unit in the same way. They almost never do anything together out of costume. They don't have a joint baseline relationship of "family" - each pair of characters has a unique relationship. Like, Dick and Damian are close, Tim and Damian have a very rocky history, and Jason and Damian have honestly just not interacted that much? (Hilariously, Jason literally shot Damian early on and Damian doesn't appear to hold a grudge, while you know Tim is still mad about the dinosaur thing.) Damian has a specific relationship with Steph. Tim has a specific (and close!) relationship with Babs. (He used to just...hang out in the Watchtower! Being nerds together!) Duke and Cass are close, which of course is largely ignored by fandom. Etc.

I think the fact that the canon relationships are fraught and in some cases either really volatile or nonexistent is potentially really interesting. Like, I would love to see a story that puts Jason and Tim on a mission together and really digs into that dynamic, or Tim and Damian. (Or my dream story, one where Tim feels Some Kind Of Way about how he used to be Dick's favorite but now Damian very clearly is. (This is not how Dick sees it at all, for the record. Tim is his little brother! But Damian is his baby. It's different.))

Or look at the Robins' current relationships with Bruce: Dick is the closest with him but also accepts and absorbs much of Bruce's bad behavior without question. Bruce and Jason cannot be around each other for more than 30 minutes without dragging up every wound they've inflicted on each other over the years. Tim is desperate to fix Bruce to a degree that's actively unhealthy for Tim. Bruce functionally ignores Steph's entire existence and she seems to have wisely made her peace with that. And Damian is desperate for the unconditional love Bruce seems incapable of giving and mad at himself for it.

I don't actually want to change that. I find it fascinating. I'm not opposed to stories about the kids healing some of that damage, but I don't particularly want it to be via their relationships with Bruce. I'd like to see it happen via their relationships with each other. (That one story where Dick was like "Tim you will never fix Bruce, PLEASE stop trying" and Bruce was like "Lol he's right" was SO good. And then the writing on Tim went catastrophically off the rails but we're not talking about that right now.)

Anyway I think I've gotten a little far afield of your original question, but basically: I like (the good takes on) the fanon Batfam, but I also think the canon Batfam is really interesting. I don't think the two should be conflated (which is what DC does when they try to give us fluffy interactions that haven't been earned, Tom Taylor). And I don't think anyone is wrong for preferring either a more lighthearted take or a more fraught, canon-compliant take. The asshole behavior comes in when you refuse to accept other people's preferences.

(But also, if you are looking for an actually loving and healthy canon family that has playful interactions, you want the Flashes or the Arrows.)

[dailycass-cain]

Birds of Prey #2 continues off the highs of #1 as it continues the story. But what of Cass within it? Well, here are my thoughts on the issue pertaining to Cass.

So the opening pages feature a flashback with Sin and Dinah which makes me feel really old honestly. Given the last time we saw Sin was quite some time ago (Gail Simone's last run on BoP before the dark times. Before the New 52).

But this flashback feels more akin to near when Gail's first run on BoP was wrapping up. We get a "Pokemon" mention (Sin did love those and even got Barda ironically on them. Those who know well tie into why Barda is fully into helping Dinah with this).

So it's clear writer Kelly Thompson knows her history and even acknowledges that the League of Assassins wants Sin (who were in the first issue).

However, not acknowledged is well on the "why".

With all the weaving she's doing, in this issue (and last). I just feel it makes more sense as to "why" Cass and Barda's reasons for helping Dinah are more clear than say Zealot's (I still want to see this story with her and Dinah) and Harley.

Though if we take this as "years" ago, boy howdy does this open a can of worms with Cass's age again. Like, prior to the New 52 and Cass's reintroduction, she was like possibly in her early 20s (same age as Jason Todd).

Then the New 52 came around, and she was 18. More closer to the age group Duke/Tim/Steph/Harper were in this era for sure. So that bit is confusing in this current DC landscape where she could be in her early 20s again or not.

Eh, this is just me overthinking the history angles anyway. So it isn't too worrisome. 😅 But I do like these nuggets that with characterization Thompson is laying the seeds for long-time readers to enjoy. While letting new readers just enjoy this ride.

This issue is another enjoyment. There's just so much good going on in this issue. Besides the stuff with Dinah, we get a better reason for what Harley brings to the team, interaction with her and Zealot.

Speaking of that, Harley lets slip this issue she "sorta" fought with Cass compared to what we got the last issue. So maybe Cass was just a "bad storyteller".

So who said Cass jobbed "hard" to Harley, well maybe it was more Cass's impression on the scuffle that led her to respect Harley's chaotic nature.

Unlike ANOTHER story in another DC comic last month that had Cass jobbing...

But the stuff with Cass this issue is sprinkled lightly. Unlike the hearty amount last issue, we get pieces and I'm okay with that.

This is a team comic, not a duo ongoing that-- I sorely miss.

ahem*

But the stuff we got here is gold with the slight amount we get. Just more Cass/Barda goodness (which is obvious Thompson knows is gold). More glorious art and fight sequences drawn by Leonardo Romero.

Like the teleportation between Dinah and a surprise guest star (so close to a Spirit World reunion), Barda/Cass, and Zealot/Harley all converging was sweet.

The other most interesting thing I have to say pertaining to Cass is how she still hasn't unmasked in the series. It feels different to see Cass unmasked in Batgirls 😭and Spirit World.

Here?

She's all business. Kinda very Bruce-like even. It's a little refreshing.

I also dig her web suit in the issue basically being her Batgirl suit with an oxygen mask and backpack. With zero capes on her back to cause harm.

So even though she didn't do much, this still was a fun appearance. Not awing like the last issue, but again this is a team book.

Zealot and Harley needed this issue. Along with Dinah being the singular focus in this arc. I can dig it.

Birds of Prey #2 continues the plot and gives us a tiny bit of Cass to wet our appetites for the next issue: her vs. Amazons.

No off-screen being beat. We gonna get her facing Amazons ON PANEL with WAAAAAY better characterization in the next few issues.

SWEET.

Again, I'm really enjoying this series and really curious about the twists and turns this goes down as it continues. I have curious questions not pertaining to Cass (like Future Maps and her story), and again Zealot/Dinah.

But this is some good stuff.

[danny-chase]

Idk how controversial of an opinion this is but I wish DC would lean into the differences between the members of the batfamily and build them up as their own characters with their own moralities and motivations again. They just all feel so generic... it’s like DC took sandpaper and scrubbed away the most interesting aspects of their characters

[bigskydreaming]

I’m ngl, I’m mildly interested in the Lazarus Planet stuff coming up, mostly because I miss being invested in DC comics and also I’ve been very invested in Marvel comics for awhile, and when nature is out of balance to that degree, bad things happen.

Like, I’m not expecting it to be GOOD, per se, but it does look like radical changes across the board (even if temporary), and that’s the kind of shake-up that can rattle loose various ideas or set-ups that intrigue me and get the inspiration engines up and running.

Course, first there’s this whole Batman vs Robin set-up to put everything in place, and I’m aggressively trying to ignore all of that and just wade into the eventual Lazarus Planet stuff armed with wiki summaries, because oh look, all the former Robins have been brainwashed into being evil and trying to kill Bruce because brainwashed Batkids is something new and different and oh well, at least they’re just making this about former Robins and not Bruce’s kids so its not ACTUALLY like Cass and Duke have just been left on the sidelines again right?

Hey, completely unrelated, but who wants to join in on a “Its Been This Many Days Since We Last Fucked With Dick Grayson’s Brain” scoreboard as like a Christmas gift for the DC offices?

Anyway, my only real takeaway on this is not only are Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph and Damian all united in being evil and targeting Bruce, they’ve also all been armed with heavy-duty mystical weapons like the Sword of Sin and Cloak of Cagliostro and lol its like wait at what point do you have to take a look at how you hype up the Batkids’ own skills and danger-levels and be like, umm, Bruce really should NOT be coming out of this event alive but okay.

[duketectivecomics]

Hey I was wondering if you know the official order of bruce gaining all the kids including harper, Barbara, and stephanie? I know its Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian but where does the other 3 and duke and cass fall in? Tia!!

So I’m gonna assume that you mean the order in which they get adopted, since finding First Appearances is one of the easier things to google for any character. (Getting First Appearance issues afterall is part of the reason some comics retain their value, so it’s usually well documented when a character first shows up. Side note: DCUguide is an excellent resource if you’re looking to comb through appearances for characters, although I’d also recommend asking for reading lists from other fans, since usually those have been curated down to essential storylines only)

I tried to provide actual issue #s where I could, but a lot of the time in comics, it’s usually something that’s dropped or hinted around or casually mentioned rather than outright boldly stated.

Also some of these characters span DECADES and their histories change depending on continuity. So I tried to account for that where I could.

But also canon is fake and everyone in fandom cherry-picks anyways so yknow. Keep THAT in mind too.

Before we dive into this, I wanna have a quick convo on what Legal Guardianship vs Adoption is.

While guardianship includes some of the same responsibilities as adoption, it also comes with a few key differences, such as allowing any living parents (also possibly any living relatives) to contest the guardianship. Adoption would make the child fully and solely the potential parent’s responsibility, and would nullify any legal ‘say’ that the biological parents may have. Also of note, is that  guardianship does not allow the child in question a claim to inheritance unless the guardian specifically wills it to them, as there is again, a bit more of distance that is placed between the child and guardian, as more of a mentorship is expected to take hold. One way to look at it is that adoption is permanent (& usually a longer drawn out process bc of that), while guardianship can be more legally flexible.

With that out of the way, let’s start~

Dick: pre-flashpoint/52, it’s stated often that Dick was actually Bruce’s ward, that Bruce has legal guardianship over Dick. I know this is a nitpick and doesn’t matter bc it’s usually retconned/ignored in favor of Dick being adopted. But I think it’s a fascinating point of potential contention nonetheless. especially given the historical reason, that it was absolutely unheard of at the time for a single man to adopt a child, but no one would bat at eye if he was taking Dick in out of a sense of altruism & duty. Contract this with decades later, when he DOES appear to adopt Jason outright, which puts some friction in place between Dick & Bruce. and well, you’ve got a whole story & conflict to explore right there.

Barbara: Usually dons the Batgirl cowl after Dick becomes Robin (the only exception to that was The Batman (2004) cartoon and it was absolutely galaxy brain of them honestly) She has her own Dad though (idk if y’all know him? Jim Gordon? Yknow? The Commissioner?) so she doesn’t get adopted. She’s considered a core batfam member mostly in the sense that she’s been there so long and esp as she makes herself absolutely essential when she becomes Oracle. She has never, and will likely never be adopted by Bruce (bc again. W h e n is that gonna come up? When Jim dies? L m f a o)

Jason: pre-crisis it’s assumed from the go I guess? I could only find slight confirmation and ended up finding more info that there was a custody battle and that Bruce would won Jason back officially in Detective Comics #548. post-crisis, Jason’s history is redone, though & I remember his adoption being touched on, but could not for the life of me find a particular issue. N52/Rebirth it’s simply assumed from the go as far as I’m aware.

Tim: Batman #654. This was after his father died, though he’d been Robin at this point for at least a decade. For n52/Rebirth as far as I can tell he’s also been outright adopted by Bruce (though I think he’s parents were still alive but in Witness Protection? Idk. I haven’t read at all for Tim’s history there so take that with a heavy grain of salt)

Steph: another one who is not adopted (Crystal Brown is very much alive and taking care of Steph (barring the time Leslie Thompkins squirreled her away after faking Stephs death BUT)) She does show up pretty soon on Tim’s tail when he starts as Robin. Again, she’s considered a staple of the family because of how long she’s been involved with them. I like to think of her like Kimmy in Full House. She’s a Good Friend who’s Constantly Showing Up and is one of the family through mutual agreement on everyone’s part.

Cass: Batgirl (2008) #6, though like Tim, Cass had been Batgirl for nearly a decade at that point in continuity. She’s shown and stated many times that she considers Bruce a father/father figure and likewise that Babs, who had been mentoring her, was the closest she has to a mother. In n52/Rebirth, I have yet to see or hear about official adoption for her, but again. We usually ignore canon on that part anyways. I mean they made her into Orphan so uhhhh. Not super great yknow?

Damian: since he is biologically Bruce’s, it’s never really addressed as far as I’m aware (I have yet to read Damian’s appearances Altho he’s next on my Robin list). I personally think it’d be interesting to explore the fact that he was likely born outside of the country and what that means for Bruce gaining legal custody & whether or not Talia would contest that? I’m sure there’s probably SOME thinkpieces about it out there, but I’ll search for them on my own time eventually

And now we’re getting to *drum roll* Harper and Duke!

Harper: her appearances are mostly kept to the n52 runs, though with Tynion returning to Detective, it’s likely she’s coming back into Rebirth soon. She’s a unique case where, due to her abusive home life, she emancipated herself and took her brother, Cullen, with her. Neither she nor her brother were adopted by Bruce, and as far as I’m aware/understand, they’re fine with it that way. I know Stephanie was living with them at some point (it’s dropped in Batman & Robin: Eternal at least?), so I certainly think it would have been nice if DC also brought them into the fold like Steph. Just a couple of kids who are Really Good Friends with the family and continue to insert themselves in batfam business lmao

Duke: I actually addressed this fairly recently here! Duke’s guardianship (bc like Dick, Duke is not outright adopted by Bruce, likely to afford Duke’s parents the opportunity to regain custody should they recover from Joker’s toxin) its a little more up in the air at this point in Batman & The Outsiders. Since Bruce is very clearly taking both him and Cass away on globetrotting adventures. It would make things EASIER ofc if he is under Bruce’s guardianship. But given that it’s not really addressed, it’s led most of fandom to simply assume it instead. And really? Considering that DC themselves probably doesn’t realize that they’ve written themselves into this corner, it probably won’t be fully addressed or recognized anyways.

So to answer your first question actually: Babs, Steph, and Harper? Not adopted, likely never will be, but they ARE interspersed fairly regularly in the line-up. Everyone else? Varying degrees of being under Bruce’s guardianship if not outright adopted.

We’re all happy that they’re here, though!!! And we love and appreciate them ALL.

[jinmukangwrites]

Okay, first of all—your writing??? Absolutely amazing! I admire your writing and I look up to you a ton 💖💖💖 Anyway... I’ve noticed some of your writing and such for the dc and batman stuff and I’m really interested, but I don’t know where it’s all from. Are the characters from comics (and which ones?) or what? I just want to find them because you obviously love them and I want to be able to better understand who and what you’re writing about. Thanks for your time!

Ah!!! You're super kind!!!!!! And also, is this an opportunity to convert someone to my Lord and savior Bruce the bastard man Wayne?

OKAY. So, DC is OLD. I've read fanfiction dating back to before I was BORN. The comics are a good way to go, but there's so many reboots and retellings that it will definitely take A LOT of time to get into the fandom with them alone. DC isn't like Marvel, yes the fandom does have one or two good movies but the rest suck so it makes it harder to get into.

SO. If you want to QUICKLY get into the fandom, I recommend watching Young Justice, Teen Titans (NOT TEEN TITANS GO) and various ANIMATED DC movies like Son of Batman, Batman: Under the Red Hood, Teen Titans vs Justice League, Teen Titans: The Judas Contract, and Batman and Harley Quinn. There's others, but those are my favorites.

You can definitely watch Batman The Animated Series. It's old, but it's CLASSIC. Batman and Robin with some of the best portrayals of the best supervillains to ever exist. Joker. Poison Ivy. Two Face. Riddler. Penguin. Oh, did I mention Mark Hamil plays Joker and is arguably the best portrayal of the Joker ever? Yes. Luke Skywalker.

These all will give you a pretty good idea of who Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, and Damian Wayne all are. Young Justice will help with Tim Drake but not all that much.

The comics are harder because everyone has their preference. I say you should definitely read Robin: Year One, Red Robin, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Batgirl, and various New 52 comics. I like the New 52 comics, but in all honesty the fandom has completely abondoned canon comics at this point because Tom King doesn't know what the hell he's doing with them and he's dragging them into the dirt. The fandom is centered around a whole lot of FANON. So, really the best way to get into the fandom is to watch some of the classic animated tv series and read a whole lot of fan fiction. If you have time, comics will help you understand other Batfam members like Cass, Steph, and Duke, but in all honesty those characters are horribly ignored by the fandom. Most people just focus on Dick, Jay, Tim, and Dami anyway.

Anyway, I hope that helps! You can find most things I've listed on the DC Universe app, or you can find them your own way.

Marvel is great and all, but if you want some GOOD comics and animated series, DC is the way to go. Marvel has amazing movies, but in my opinion DC is where it's at for everything else. If you're interested in it, I fully recommend it. It's truly an underappreciated fandom.

Yes I do care about these characters very much but I really don't mind if other people don't, I like writing them mostly for myself, it's an added bonus when someone else happens to like it too

[victoriousscarf]

for the meme: Jason Todd and Slade Wilson

Jason: First impression

Okay I’m reaching back to 2008 for this but I’m pretty sure the first time I ran into Jason was Hush because I read Hush really early. I remember it being my introduction to a lot of characters (including Dick as Nightwing) which is both great because it covers like Batman’s entire rouge gallery and crew but is also awful because it covers everyone and that gets confusing fast hah.

So my introduction to him was Bruce’s overwhelming guilt and rage over his death. That’s a pretty strong impression. I also know I read Under the Red Hood fairly early and liked it enough to get the animated movie the instant it came out. But I don’t remember really LOVING Jason at that stage. Like I liked him but he wasn’t someone I was so into. I’m pretty sure the first time I ever wrote him was Find the Sun. I had Dick and Tim in the first story I ever wrote but I’m pretty sure Jason wasn’t in it.

Impression now

God I can not with this compassionate broken and angry child. He’s brash yet kind, too messed up by his own tenderness and driven to extremes by his anger. Someone hug this boy.Favorite moment

Damn I don’t know. I mean the end of Under the Red Hood when Bludhaven is nuked and he fights Bruce anyway creates this really interesting triangle between Bruce Jason and Dick and tho Dick isn’t there he’s still so much a presence of the screen, the favored son vs the one who messed up and died and Bruce’s panic while finally facing this ghost. I don’t know if I can say it’s my favorite but it fucks me up to this day. I also like him fucking with Black Mask that always gives me a kick. And I really love him first meeting Dick back as Robin (the post zero hour one, not Nightwing Year One).Idea for a storyI’m sure variations have been done but I’d love more about him dealing with the Lazarus pit and how that continues to effect him. Unpopular opinionI really don’t like new 52? Like I’m all for Jason having actual friends and there’s some good in Red Hood and the Outlaws but like that’s never where i go first. Like Roy and Kor almost always are Dicks friends first. I wish Jason had been allowed to keep growing in the pre 52 with maybe some more links to Donna and Kyle and building a life post all the things he had done instead of scrapping the slate back and making him WAY less angry or brutal. Like, I’m glad new 52 reframes his compassion but I really like his compassion held in tenuous balance with his rage. (I feel starved for truly angry characters okay that aren’t just assholes). Pre 52 had some major issues with him too but tbh I’m more in Under the Red Hood territory than Red Hood and the Outlaws. Favorite relationshipYou gonna make me say it??? Really? Okay fine I’m totally into him and Dick. And I don’t just mean I really like making them kiss: I am so fascinated by the possibilities of their relationship in canon: favored son vs second son, and how Jason’s idolization of Dick turns to rage contrasted with Dicks behavior toward Jason starting as Robin, changing to his guilt and missing Jason so much turning to complete disregard for Jason when he comes back which directly contradicts Dicks entire reaction the whole time Jason was dead. Dreaming about him, getting into fights with Bruce, and perhaps most importantly beating the Joker to death with a crowbar when he mocks him about not remembering Jason’s name. (Sure it got fixed almost instantly but like mocking Jason’s death drove Dick, guilt complex almost fell apart when he let someone else kill Blockbuster Dick, to actually /kill the Joker/ which makes him the only member of the batfam who actually avenged his murder at any point??? Does Jason even /know/?) Add on legacy issues (when Dick disappears for a year Jason takes up the Nightwing suit too) and like yeah I’m fucking here man. I mean I love Bruce and Jason and the pain between them, and Jason and Tim starting with rage and moving to actually being friends but like the miasma of whatever the fuck is between Dick and Jason keeps dragging me back. (Come home brother is the only page I want to keep from Battle for the Cowl)

Favorite headcanon

Jason is acting president of all Robin’s have a crush on Dick Grayson club. They’re still trying to figure out where Duke lands but Steph is a member, tho she got the least of it since her stint as Robin covered Dicks mental breakdown era.

Slade:First impression

Damn I don’t remember. I’m fairly certain I ran into him in the teen Titans before anywhere else and he’s always interested me but I can’t quite remember which issue I found him in first. I know I spent a lot of time tracking down Judas Contract since it was out of print at the time and I have like a really early printing tpb from the 80s as a result. And even more time finding the issue where he just strolls into Dicks apartment to tell him he’s in Bludhaven because that issue never was collected in trade, so I was checking every comic store I could find and their back issues.

Impression now

I’m really disappointed he’s become more of a generic villain in a lot of DCs media. Like I loved him under Wolfram, when he was a Merc with an honor code and snarky outlook who was as likely to tutor the Titans as attack them. He almost became an ally a few times. And like I haven’t dug into his post new 52 comics that much but he just seems so bland and like oh ho ho he’s such a badass and that’s all that matters!!! So like I’m still attached to the character I just haven’t paid much attention to his recent canon.

Favorite moment

Hmmm… I mean I really like the time he allies with the Titans and the old squad was just side eying him the whole time while the newcomers where sorta more like eh? Is he so bad? And then Dick rode a goddamn nuke because why not.

But honestly it’s probably him and Dick standing outside the abondoned Titans tower, fighting over their guilt over Joeys death. It’s showcases both of their emotional pain, Dicks temper, and Slade’s strange capacity for compassion.

Idea for a story

Can I have another 80 stories set in Flashpoint with him as a pirate???

Honestly I’d be really here for an actual nuanced story exploring his relationship with his kids. Too often it gets reduced to hate or them being too much like their father and that’s not what I want.

Or! Considering I have no idea what the fuck is happening with DC right now but I just read that Superman and Lois from pre and post new 52 just got combined and have memories from both universes combined Slade dealing with his kids and Dick and sure throw Ollie in here too. The fact he’s both not met Grayson and has spend years intimately knowing Dick and the workings of his mind would be a trip and could be fun, plus his more complicated relationship with Joey and Rose pre new 52. Also Ollie would have a shit of a time figuring out his two lives (as he’s a set of characters that changed by far the most with the new 52) and why not throw Slade at him again too for old times sake? (Hey asshole remember when I crashed your wedding? I’m not even–actually yeah yeah I do you ASSHOLE)

Unpopular opinion

I have no idea??? I honestly don’t know what’s popular and what isn’t with him. So far no one’s bitched at me with anything to do with Slade.

Favorite relationship

While I’m totally here for the respectful turned to hateful rivalry between Slade and Dick (and honestly that’s another relationship that’s been stripped from Dick that drives me MAD) my favorite is actually Slade’s relationship with his kids. He’s distant, moves on a scale as simply a neglectful and not great dad to full on abusive and using his kids for his own ends (like for sure sticking kryptonite in Roses eye is a great idea!!!! But that was also at the height of Slade loosing his morals and mind). But as much as he wasn’t there for Grant, it was Grant’s foolish death and Slade’s pride that sent him on a collision course with the Titans. His guilt over Joey, first with his muteness and later for killing his own son, the fact that as terrible as he was to Rose he wants the person he respects possibly the most (Dick) to take care of his kids, especially her. The fact that when he looks at Rose the emotion the black lanterns see is love. The fact his entire plot in Flashpoint was his quest to save his daughter as the world goes pear shaped into apocalypse. Slade loves his kids he’s just a terrible fucking father and I love it.

Favorite headcanon

He still respects Dick despite everything they’ve done to each other.

[oceannocturne]

#Bullying is okay as long as its Tim drake#I'm ngl I do have selfish reasons for this#Someone commented on my Tim post the other day#That Tim is the only bat that Jason tolerates#Which what is that nonsense#The 3 bat's Jason tolerates are babs steph and Duke#Duke and steph I would even say enjoy his company#And then I started thinking about how Duke does have the best relationship with every other bar#And then I jumped to maybe that's why people think he's normal#He needs a good insane fight with another bat#Anyway Tim vs Duke when dc (tags via op)

I think one of the reasons why people think Duke is the least insane or most normal member of the batfam (aside from the just not knowing much about him) is bc hes the only bat who hasn't had beef with another member of the family I mean Duke even gets along with Jason - anyway my solution to this is that Duke should get to physically fight another member of the family and my personal pick is obviously Tim Drake

[cephalog0d]

Batfam Spreadsheet 2 - Metadata Boogaloo

Remember when I made a giant spreadsheet of Batfam comic appearances well here's a GIANT update because hyperfixation is real! (Uploaded as a whole new spreadsheet because it's. A lot of updates. This thing has become a monster. I highly recommend hiding columns you don't care about in the master list for ease of use.)

Updates:

Added cover dates for all issues!

Added roles and identities for all character appearances as filterable columns (see below for more details)! Wanna only see times Steph showed up as Robin, or find those issues where Jason was being Nightwing? You can filter for that!

More minor characters added to the sheet: Bao Pham, Bette Kane, Charlie Gage-Radcliffe, Claire Clover, Cullen Row, David Zavimbe, Hank Clover, Minhkhoa Khan, and Wendy Harris

Appearances up to date through cover date November 2023 (actual release date September 2023). (I intend to update at the end of every month, but it's at least current through then.)

LINK

Roles: Characters are listed by Major, Supporting, Minor, Cameo and Unreal roles. Cameos that are only on a cover/in a photo are noted as such. When a character appears in both the main story and flashback both are listed separately (e.g. Supporting; Flashback). When characters are only in flashback, that's listed with a clarifying role (e.g. Flashback (Supporting)). Roles listed as "Flashback" only are either Minor or Cameo roles. Unreal indicates the character is in a dream/hallucination/vision/etc.

Character names in the Identity column indicate someone is out of costume or at a point where they aren't using a secret identity (flashbacks before officially taking it up, gaps where they stopped, etc.)

Related: I'm very much relying on wikis/databases for what identity and role people have in a particular issue because a) I have not read every single one of the 5200+ of these issues and b) I'm not great at remembering things by issue number anyway for what I have read. So, you know, grain of salt, sorry if someone's mis-labeled here and there.

Notes from the previous issue that still apply:

The Spreadsheet currently contains all post-crisis appearances for the following characters: Barbara Gordon, Cassandra Cain, Damian Wayne, Dick Grayson, Duke Thomas, Harper Row, Helena Bertinelli, Jace Fox, Jarro, Jason Todd, Jean-Paul Valley, Kate Kane, Luke Fox, Stephanie Brown and Tim Drake. I feel like that's most of the big ones (and several not-very-big-ones), but if there's a Bat-person missing you'd like to see on there, feel free to ask!

All sheets are conditionally formatted so if you enter "Y" in the Read column it will highlight the whole row in green to mark it off, if you're the kind of person who likes to keep track and mark things off a list.

Dates are the start of the series, since that's how a lot of places besides DC itself with their weird "volume" convention distinguish different runs.

Character lists aren't split into Preboot vs. New 52 vs. Rebirth vs. IF, sorry. You can figure it out by the dates for the most part, though. (New 52 was 2011, Rebirth was 2016, IF was 2022.)

On that note, all of this was pulled from the DC Wiki, and while I did a little bit of spot-checking as I went for things I knew off the top of my head it's entirely possible things are missing or mis-attributed. I'm happy to update accordingly if there are.

((I am low-key considering expanding into various Bat-adjacent teams (Titans, Outsiders, YJ, etc.) but those would probably be separate sheets rather than making this one even more gigantic. We shall see.))

[bigskydreaming]

You're asked to choose one and only one or DC's future stops existing immediately. your choices:

1. Jason Todd the anti-hero who seldom works with only a couple of the bats he doesn't hate, for example Dick and Cass VS. Jason Todd who came back with healed body but broken spirit, folded back into the Gotham gang and learns to be part of the society again.

2. Tim Drake who makes all of his mistakes as canon but realizes he's been wrong and apologizes to people VS. Tim Drake back in his first iteration, a cute little brother character who is a reader insert and a fun teenager.

3. JayKyle VS DickKyle.

4. Jason Todd with a sword VS. Damian Wayne with a sword.

5. Chris Kent VS. Jon kent.

Okay but which DC future? Its omniversal future? Its hypertime future? Its multiversal future? Its Elseworlds future? Its dark multiverse future? Mwahahaha your threat is useless because the sheer wtf of DC's continuities, timelines and conflicting declarations of what to even call their multiomnihyperverse makes it impossible to target simply A future! DC's overly unnecessarily complicated nature renders it functionally immortal and impossible to ever truly destroy, take that Darkseid.

I mean. But anyway. Whatevs:

1) I honestly do prefer the idea of Jason someday fully reuniting/reintigrating into the Batfam as a whole, because fuck it, the found family I'm here for is the one where they actually act like a family....I just think it takes actual work to get to that point and I get irey when people are like we're here! We found it! And its like meanwhile, abusive dynamics still abound. Mmm. No thank you. But even though I've been on a huge Jason and Dick and Cass kick for like, forever, I do still aim for him having a dynamic of his own with the rest of the family.

Like the thing is, I hate playing the favorites card in families, and I think the emphasis on so and so being Bruce's favorite child or so and so being this kid's favorite sibling, etc, like it really does feel like to the detriment of the whole family, because once you start validating the idea of favorites, ESPECIALLY in a found family that is CONTINUOUSLY growing....I think you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot because you're kinda creating a situation where either no future new additions to the family can EVER be Bruce or one of the kids' 'favorite' or else you're innately positing that said fave status is conditional and even a current fave of Bruce or a sibling can be bumped down the ladder by the addition of a later arrival....

Which is LITERALLY the entire essence of the eternal conflict between Dick and Damian and Tim fans. Its not even that Damian is Dick's favorite, allegedly, its that prior to Damian's very EXISTENCE, fans felt comfortable declaring Tim unilaterally to be Dick's 'favorite'.....and then all it took was the addition of a single family member who had specific NEEDS in regards to Dick's attention and focus, largely because of his age and needing a legal guardian while Tim was old enough to literally jet set around the world on his own.....and like, everything went up in flames in large corners of fandom.

So I'm just like, death to the fave family member myth, its just incredibly counter productive to the idea of found family as a whole especially when it usually only exists to prop up a preferred character as better than others via the proof of see, these other characters say he's their fave or whatever...but also like, its not even necessary?

Because the thing is, you can have Jason reintegrated into the whole family overall, and still prioritize your personal narrative FOCUS on characters you like more than others, like say Dick and Cass.....because of course its natural for even people in the same family to have entirely different DYNAMICS with different family members....and these dynamics don't have to come with a ranking system in order to prioritize which ones you just focus on more in a story. Because its not necessarily that Dick has to be Jason's fave brother, y'know, just for Jason to prefer spending time with Dick simply because he's more comfortable with him due to knowing him longer or being more secure in the idea that Dick doesn't judge him based on their greater shared history.

This doesn't mean that Jason doesn't care for his other siblings, that he can't have strong dynamics with them as well, its just about finding a reason for why these two specifically might be in a story without the others that doesn't demand putting a definitive ranking on which one Jason considers his FAVE. Just like Damian doesn't have to be Dick's FAVE just for them to have the super close canon relationship they have, even relative to the other siblings, because there's everything needed in canon already to establish that the mere fact of Dick essentially RAISING Damian for a year, and being the first one in the family to really take a chance on Damian, like, this lends itself naturally to them maybe more naturally gravitating towards each other than other siblings due to comfort level and familiarity, etc, but it doesn't have to be like....oh but yeah, I just like Damian more than you, Tim, y'know?

So my answer on this one is a total cop out of both, both is good. Jason totally reintegrated back into the family, but with dynamics that still lend themselves fairly easily towards story lineups where its just him running missions with Dick or Duke or any other one or two specific family members even if for no other reason than they gel together best in the field, y'know?

2) Hmm. I honestly really do love and miss 90s Tim Drake and just....don't see him in a lot of what I read these days. I'm like no, why did he have to go, he was doing so well! BUT I'm also on a big accountability kick, and like, I'm so steeped in fics where Dick GROVELS for forgiveness for every little slight he's ever done real or imagined, with every character but Tim in particular, so its like.....I'm not gonna lie, I really have a preference these days for seeing stuff where its literally anyone actually owning up to shit they've done to Dick and apologizing or groveling or making it to HIM, like, completely unconditionally. In the same manner we usually see Dick apologizing, glossing over any reasons he might have had for doing what he did or feeling the way he did, and saying oh it doesn't matter, putting the entirety of his focus on what HE did and why it was wrong no matter what and he's sorry.....that's what I would kill to see from more fics, just in reverse.

Because so often even in the all too rare fics where we DO see other characters apologizing to Dick for shit, its watered down with Dick volunteering that oh he messed up too, it was a two way street, and its like no! This is Pettiness Hours! I want the unconditional apologies! Give me the groveling! From anyone, I don't care at this point, lol, just show me characters actually PUTTING IN THE WORK to make it up to Dick for harm they've caused him, even if completely unintentionally or via neglecting his feelings or considering the repercussions their actions or words would have on him. Aaaaaaand, frankly, Tim's a good place to start there, because of how one sided all the takes on their conflicts have been for so many years. I mean, if people need a place to start, Batman and Robin Eternal gets enough praise it can't be pretended that people in fandom don't know that story exists, so how about some stories where Tim says he's fucking sorry for punching Dick in issue #4 or #5 of that one, and it was uncalled for and he was clearly just looking for an excuse to unleash some more of his resentment and upset for the Spyral/Forever Evil stuff, and family deciding that its totally okay to punch Dick whenever they're mad at him and need to work off some aggression so they can then finally forgive him (for now) is a trend that needs to die in a fire post-haste? I mean just as an example.

But the thing that kills me about fanfic trends is like....the sameness of so much of it. There's SO much room for variety and diverse takes, and like....I don't actually hate Tim! I'm just cranky because of the imbalanced nature of most content out there for literal years at this point. Push the pendulum BACK in the other direction, create some balance by showing the flip side of things.....and that leaves a lot more room for me and others of like minds to then be more amenable to - and even interested in - other stories that don't scratch this particular itch, but don't need to, because other stories are doing the scratching by then, y'know?

And THEN like, at that point, I would be ALL FOR more stories that are just callbacks to classic 90s Tim who I adore, with his skateboarding and his EARNESTNESS and his go-get-em spirit and also the gumption. All the gumption. I like that Tim. I do miss that Tim. But like, for the moment, like, I want accountable Tim because I am tiiiiiiiired of groveling Dick and tbh at this point its not enough for me to just see people move past putting Dick in that position and just have mutually respective and doting brothers Dick and Tim having adventures together......nah, first I want some reciprocation. Ngl. Gimme the apologies for actual mistakes actually made.

3) DickKyle. Easy question, c'mon, you gotta know that. LOL. ;)

But yeah, I've been shipping these two off their like, two shared pages from way back in the Obsidian Age story years before Jason even returned, let alone was in Countdown together with Kyle, so like, its no contest. I don't mind JayKyle, I certainly prefer it to JayRoy tbh, but there's not a ton of appeal in it for me, particularly in how its usually depicted, because like....the entire basis of JayKyle is that they DO have stories together and spent a whole year worth of weekly issues traveling the multiverse together in Countdown.....but there's like, practically no trace of their actual dynamics from that series or any specifics of literally any issue from that entire comic in most fics I’ve read, so its like.....idk, it tends to come across as more generic, not in the sense that it cant still be interesting, but more in the sense that it feels like just someone paired with Jason just because history between them EXISTS without any interest in exploring what that history actually IS....and at that point, its like, well there's no reason TO prioritize that ship over DickKyle for me personally, when like, I have a shit ton of headcanon reasons for why those two in a pairing specifically. *Shrugs* My logic. Its not for everyone, but it works for me.

4) Jason with a sword or Damian with a sword? I don't understand the question. Both. Both is good. All the characters should have swords. Swords are awesome.

5) Chris Kent vs Jon Kent - oof. I adore Jon, I really do. I love his dynamic with Damian, I love a lot of their specific stories, the parallels between them as friends and Bruce and Clark as friends....its all very bien. But I gotta give this one to Chris, because I'm always gonna have a soft spot for him because I'm a sucker for all abused kid heroes, and I just miss that funky little dude so much. There's so many stories we didn't get with him and were just ripe for the picking, but nooooo, DC's like lol you can't have nice things, here we just rebooted the entire multiverse and now Clark and Lois never adopted the son of Clark's worst Kryptonian rival and raised him with tender love and care awww does that make you sad, were you invested in him, WELL TOO BAD, HE'S GONE NOW AND BASICALLY NEVER EXISTED, NOW GIVE US YOUR MONEY ANYWAY MWAHAHAHAHAH.

Yeah. I'm still not over that. Probably will never be tbh, so I with great grudge-bearing do affirm that I'm gonna go with Chris on this one and like, he is a Priority for me and I'm still very keen on the idea of him and Duke being besties for random reasons that might not make sense to anyone but me, but eh, whatever.