#And simultaneously doesnt mean there cant be another true love later ^_^

[freebooter4ever]

kenny p is losing his mind over this one

[akechicrimes]

Hey crimes, feel free to disregard this tangent but, do u ever feel like P5 inadvertently or otherwise implied Goro was right with his fake “vigilante justice operates outside and the law and thus must be brought to heel” opinion? What with the fact that the Yaldabaoth confrontation implies the thieves work perpetuated humanity’s sloth AND THEN after an entire game showing us the hundreds of people who were at the v least COMPLICIT in shido’s machinations, a system which is (1)

ohhhhh this one is fun!! this is a super neat question, ty for asking!!!

hmmmmmmmmm

im going to try and break this down into parts, partly because persona 5 is such a convoluted mess with its own lines of thinking, so tell me if i dont do it right. the issues are: (1) goro definitely did say that operating outside the law was bad just on principle that you shouldn’t operate outside the law, and (2) persona 5 did definitely go on to say that all of the phantom thieves’ operations outside the law didn’t come to anything in the first place anyway, because they were only targeting individuals instead of mass systemic corruption/their presence was enabling people to become more apathetic.

i think what persona 5 is trying to get at is that it’s not necessarily that acting outside the law is bad, but that, like you said, targeting only individuals doesn’t work as a tactic. so vigilante justice (e.g. batman style of taking down supervillains) cannot compare to societal reform through collective action.

when i say collective action, i mean that i think persona 5 is trying to point out that “systematic” corruption is really just a corruption of many, many, many individuals working in concert--and that “reform” could just be said to be the opposite, which is activism from many, many, many individuals working in concert.

obviously the ending cutscene where akira;s social link network gets together to protest his arrest is the best example of collective reform, but i think one of the things that i rly like about shido’s wide-spread conspiracy is that it does a rly good job of paralleling akira’s social link network, and pointing out that in the same way that shido’s conspiracy is a collective effort of many many many people that make up a “system,” akira’s widespread social link network creates the opposite effect of a collective effort of many many people that make up a force for change. 

which is why having the phantom thieves as a group itself just promotes more apathy--you get one group of people doing all the work for the rest of society, when if anything’s going to change, we need everyone on their feet.

which surprisingly correct, insofar as i’m aware. if society’s going to change in a substantial way, beyond just changing the hearts of a handful of abusers and letting the rest of the system remain untouched, everyone’s got to be involved. collective effort. do your part. wash your hands. stay indoors. don’t forget to vote. seriously, wash your fucking hands.

but when it comes to whether or not persona 5 says that you shouldn’t be acting outside the law... 

i think persona 5 really really really really really doesnt want to be caught promoting lawbreaking while also being You Should Break The Law: The JRPG.

part of this trouble, i think, is just because they need players to actually like the characters in the game, and therefore all the character have sympathetic reasons for breaking the law. because persona 5 has to sell marketable characters, too, persona 5 itself makes it pretty clear that people who operate “outside the law” are usually not evil dipshit criminals who love sin. the people in persona 5 who act outside the law are usually people who dont have enough power to operate inside the law in the first place. akira, the pt, and goro all seem to have resorted to what they did because they had no societal power at the start, wound up with a persona (aka fast and easy power source), and wouldnt have been able to do anything about their situation otherwise. characters who operate outside the law (like takemi with her vaguely illegal practice, or kawakami and her also vaguely illegal sex work, or iwai and his vaguely illegal gun business) are still supposed to be waifus you are sympathetic towards. 

(...i think i accidentally called iwai a waifu? hmm. on second thought, i’ll just leave that sentence as it is.)

and i really do have to point out that persona 5′s attitude of FUCK COPS is insanely strong. like. persona 5 HATES cops. and that doesn’t let up basically ever, at all, at any moment. for anything. persona 5 wants me to believe that makoto will become a good cop in the future, but if i wanted to find an existing good cop, i’d have to go all the way back to persona 4. like!! shit!! goro akechi is the closest thing we have to a good cop, and he has a pet guillotine for CEOs and his middle name is komaeda.

and that part of the big attitude with FUCK COPS is that it’s another way of morally exonerating the phantom thieves. i think... although the game ultimately concludes with “you should probably not break the law any more because the metaverse is gone,” it’s difficult to argue with the fact that persona 5 is a game in which it presents you with 10000000000000 reasons to break the law and feel Great about it.

(another tangent: i feel like one of the big undercurrents of persona 5, and especially the TV station, is that the phantom thieves are justified in their lawbreaking because the police aren’t doing their fucking job. like, someone’s got to keep people safe, and if the cops don’t like the phantom thieves, maybe they should get off their asses and actually get the criminals before the thieves do. akira literally was on live television and he was like ALL COPS ARE BAD and goro was like wow. anyone else think that was really sexy? @ the guy in the glasses in the back, call me later when you’ve leveled up your charm and knowledge.)

so atlus is in this place where they’ve pointed out that people break the law because they dont really have any other choice, and also persona 5 the game HATES cops, and also persona 5 the game cannot tell you that breaking the law is bad because it is literally A Game About Breaking The Law, but at the same time, they cant really go around promoting crime. from a doylist perspective i was 100% unsurprised that they came up with a fancy narrative reason to get rid of the metaverse and their change-of-heart abilities and just the phantom thieves in general, because all of those are a threat to the status quo. although the game might be right that relying on the phantom thieves to change society for the rest of the population makes the rest of the population lazy and apathetic, it’s pretty convenient that this means that the kids are now no longer able to break the law. so persona 5 really wants people to do things the kosher way, e.g. protesting and such. 

hhfmgmhfmghfmgfmghmfhgg. taking this all with a grain of salt, because again, i do think atlus is trying very hard to avoid saying that people should break the law:

i think atlus wants to say that it’s not necessarily acting outside the law that’s not right, but the fact that just loading the phantom thieves with a ton of power makes people apathetic, and changing the hearts of a few individuals is Not enough to get rid of something like shido’s conspiracy. so instead they say, you shouldn’t break the law because it’s not effective without collective reform. 

i think another thing that persona 5 wants us to believe is that for the most effective reform to be achieved, people both inside and outside the law/system have to be involved in the collective effort to improve society. 

e.g., toranosuke wants to be a man of the people--someone who speaks for the people who are outside of the diet, but toranosuke himself is someone inside the diet. sae’s the other good example; the phantom thieves protest akira’s arrest at the end of the game, but sae, as the insider in the justice system, has to be there to hear and work with them. and this might just be because i watched haru’s s link last night, but i feel like takakura is a really good example: haru pushes back against the company’s shitty policies with her “outsider’s” perspective (quoted because she’s technically the largest shareholder, she just hasnt ever been really involved in how the company is run), but takakura, as the company president and most powerful person at okumura foods, has to be there to hear her request and agree with her, and make company changes based on her requests. 

and it’s for this reason that persona 5 wants us to consider maybe lawbreaking isnt morally bad, just not effective.

i wish i could say that that’s more bad atlus writing, but it’s not. i’ve only really examined changing schools on an institutional level, but the best examples of institutional change in school administration have always been cases where the administration, parents, and community members all work together. in some cases, parents bring up requests for the school to accommodate their needs, and the administration listens and works with them. something something--everyone needs an advocate. the point of a lawyer is to advocate for you. the point of a politician/representative is to represent you and your interests. so on and so forth.

(and i also wish that it could be as simple as saying, “wow atlus said something right for once!” because that’s not true, either--acting outside the law can be outrageously effective. persona 5 trying to tell us that acting outside the law to get shit done isn’t effect smells like corporate trying to tell its workers that unionizing doesnt actually do anything.)

(and i also wish that persona 5 would have acknowledged that sometimes, it takes more than just an extremely moral person to change the world. take toranosuke, for example--i’m sure that if he gets elected, he’ll go out there and be a wonderful representative of the people, but at the same time, can’t we also simultaneously acknowledge that any politician who can make “politics” a career for profit will always be incentivized towards self-interest? in the same way that a military for profit will always be incentivized towards war?)

but insofar as whether or not persona 5 thinks that vigilante justice/acting outside the law is in and of itself morally bad--i’d say probably not. i think they want us to think that it’s not effective.

-

-

-

this is a slight tangent that kind of goes off the issue of whether or not persona 5 is concerned with whether or not breaking the law is moral or effective. i was going back through goro’s dialogue in the engine room--who knows if that’s going to be changed in royal--but i was trying to figure out exactly what the phantom thieves condemn him for. (fucking difficult as fuck considering how bizarre that dialogue was at places.) 

the first one is murder, which goro is unimpressed with (LMAO. KING). the second is that he operated outside the law, to which he replies that they did the same thing (valid). the third is that his form of justice was “selfish,” in that it only served his personal need for revenge. at that point, goro changes the subject--which is not really surprising, since goro admitted long before the engine room that his quest against shido was for his own personal satisfaction. 

that is to say, the phantom thieves can’t say that they don’t operate outside the law, because they do--however, if the phantom thieves can’t be legally exonerated, the phantom thieves are morally exonerated despite operating outside the law because they do it for the benefit of others. that’s actually not an incorrect statement from the phantom thieves, although i dont think they’re doing it for Society Writ Large. the phantom thieves in every single palace have taken on targets to help someone else: firstly ann and ryuji and shiho, then yusuke, then various shujin students being blackmailed by kaneshiro, etc, etc. i remember pretty distinctly that ann insists that she doesnt want to get involved with madarame just for drama or fame (whereas ryuji wants to pick a big target just for the sake of getting famous), but she agrees to get involved with madarame’s palace because she doesn’t want to leave yusuke to possibly kill himself like a previous student.

because the phantom thieves are not able to say that they haven’t operated outside the law in the same way that goro has, the dividing line between them is instead that the phantom thieves are doing so selflessly. but this is just an elaboration on the question of whether or not “is lawbreaking moral?” rather than necessarily “is lawbreaking effective?”

there’s an argument that nothing goro or the phantom thieves did was effective in the long run, and there’s an argument that sae is proof positive that working inside the system won’t be effective, either. 

anyway, unions are effective. so maybe we should agree to wash our hands and join a union.

[gayregis]

I read “A Little Sacrifice” and now I am a MESS

fun fact: i read the books out of order on purpose because i am very focused on instant gratifaction, so i read all of the hansa parts first and then went back to all of the rest of the books, thus i read the assault on castle stygga before a little sacrifice

so when i backtracked and read a little sacrifice, i had a very spiteful look on my face, like sapkowski fucking did it again, huh...

a little sacrifice has a lot of depth and it has a beautifully written sad ending but the first time i read it (with the fan translation from reddit) i didnt quite know what was being translated and what wasnt so i didnt know if i was missing any context, plus when i read, i skim and then go back a thousand times to reread it if i liked it, so i was just extremely confused as to what the fuck the relationship geralt and essi was supposed to be like, and then you get to the end and it’s like well i guess their relationship doesnt even matter after all because she’ll never show up again

also i remember being physically nauseous at reading that essi couldn’t be over 18, especially since i was like 17-18 when i read it a couple of years ago. yeah that basically was the closest i ever got to leaving the witcher fandom entirely, i had like this whole conversation with myself at 2 AM about the decision to stay in the fandom if i have to deal with this being canon, the solution i have come up with for it is that i simply do not acknowledge that part as canon and essi is like 25 in my mind and also she never fell in love with geralt

on one hand i think the story of unrequited love/doomed romance is interesting solely because it is something that you’re not meant to be like “aww cute i hope they get together” at, it’s a terrible fucking relationship in context. and geralt mentions this multiple times because he’s So Monogamous all he wants is yennefer, and this was an interesting way to develop your main romance, sapkowski does this like ten times in the series, where geralt and yennefer are fucking miles apart but somehow their romance gets developed during this period. i think it’s the embodiment of “absence makes the heart grow fonder” and it’s something that realy flew over CDPR’s heads, like they didn’t have a “hot and cold” / “on again off again” relationship, they both had a lot of issues relating to intimacy and committment and self-image which prevented them from true intimacy even though they had become very vulnerable with one another

on the other essi’s purpose in this story is literally just to fall in love with the main character and then die. like. i was genuinely mad because it wasn’t even a valorous death for a symbolic reason, such as with the hansa who die to demonstrate that an exchange of lives has occured. essi just dies because it’s sad and there’s not much place for her later in the series. i was genuinely mad because she had this really great relationship with dandelion and seeing that expanded on was something i felt we got cheated out of. all of the geralt and essi scenes we got i think should have been proportioned in a 1:2 ratio with scenes with her and dandelion / her and dandelion and geralt as a group, because she really didn’t get enough development of her own but had a lot of potential. 

plus sapkowski was just like “actually dandelion isn’t always incredibly self-absorbed and blinded by arrogance, let me demonstrate situations in which he cares deeply about the people involved and acts appropriately” and then immediately tossed that concept out of the window until we get to the end of time of contempt/roll into baptism of fire. like you’re really going to throw away the potential for depth and development for one of the main characters that’s the constant contrast to your main character. idk it was just nice to see how dandelion’s character changed to be more mature with essi in the room bc that’s his little sister ;w;

also can i just say the subplot with sh’eenaz and duke agloval annoyed me to no end. the message of the main plot is supposed to be that a little sacrifice for love is actually a really large sacrifice, and geralt refuses to hold any resentment against yennefer anymore because he realizes that she has sacrificed a lot for him and he hasn’t in return:

“A little sacrifice isn’t enough here; you’d have to sacrifice everything, and there’d still be no way of knowing if that would be enough (...) Now I know that a little sacrifice is a hell of a lot.” 

but then sh’eenaz loses her fishy tail for duke agloval ON TOP of all of the sacrifices she has made for him before? i can’t deal with this, i call bullshit. the duke has NO redeeming qualities and i still can’t see them as a couple because he was such a dick. so this relationship being part of what demonstrates “a little sacrifice” really just serves to muddle the message of the short story

i have an idea to rewrite the whole thing so to make essi x sh’eenaz real (there is potential in this ship) and the message clearer. i think there should be no romance between essi and geralt because it’s weird and for a character who is basically just Younger & Female Dandelion to immediately fall hard and fast in love with geralt is eye-rolling. i get that it’s about the message and themes of the story and not about the characters, i understand this, the characters actually matter very little, but the message would even be clearer if sh’eenaz had left the duke for essi, because it would show that sh’eenaz has already sacrificed, she’s already done so much, and because the duke never reciprocated, she left him and found love with a better person. and that could be geralt’s wakeup call that a little sacrifice really is a hell of a lot, it would send him hightailing to apologize to yennefer or at least communicate to her that he appreciates her sacrifices that she has made for him, because if you don’t appreciate the sacrifices, you will lose your loved ones.

also ofc i’d involve gerlion and all of this because i feel like there is this weird, buried trail of gerlion vs geryennefer running throughout the sword of destiny, here is my “im looking at this too closely” analysis of the path of how gerlion and geryennefer both get to exist:

bounds of reason - geralt is of course still on good terms with dandelion, but needs to mend things with yennefer, and he manages to do so by the end of the story, also dandelion and yennefer are mildly antagonistic to each other (i also cross out That Comment/Joke/Scene from my mind just fyi, its really just horrible and out of place so i cant consider it as canon)

a shard of ice - geralt and yennefer still have feelings for each other but end up separated by the end of the short story because of insecurities relating to their capacities for love and their relationships with others: there is this contrast between yennefer and istredd, which is a long relationship of friendship and istredd is someone yennefer goes to when she needs security that she will be loved, geralt is someone in contrast that she is very passionately in love with and isn’t really thinking about longtime reliability with

eternal flame - geralt and yennefer have called it quits for now, dandelion also just broke up with his girlfriend, geralt and dandelion meet in a city and decide to get smashed together. that situation alone calls for a single eyes emoji. but id like to point out the parallel here between yen/istredd and geralt/dandelion, dandelion is someone geralt goes to for security in that he will be loved, that his company will be liked and appreciated. also one of the stupidest things ive come up with is that “eternal flame” does mean some romantic interest who’s been in your life seemingly forever and you’ll always love, and the story IS called... ok anyways.... at the end of the story we are presented with this weirdly emotional scene as dudu changes into dandelion because from being geralt for a few seconds, he knows his thoughts and knows that geralt will never use violence against him & that he’ll let him go... this is a very interesting scene because of how comic the rest of the story is in tone

a little sacrifice [rewritten] - so my take on this would be that geralt and dandelion have unresolved and unacknowledged closeness and it’s eating at the both of them. geralt is just annoying because he doesn’t think he’s ‘normal’ enough for love, basically nothing really needs to change except the last 3 to 4 chapters... they still have the argument in bed, they still go to investigate the dragon’s teeth together. just instead of essi randomly confessing the all-consuming, obsessive romantic feelings for geralt that she developed in less than 35 pages, dandelion and geralt are the ones sitting down just discussing what is going on with their relationship that has been developed in-depth for i guess five short stories now (including the voice of reason) and around 15 to 20 in-universe years that have not had any affect on their ages because that’s narrative for you. instead of geralt having to console a lovesick girl crying over him and thinking that he can’t make this little sacrifice, the theme of sacrifice for love is carried over by a discussion of how much they have already sacrificed for one another over the years, and contributes to the redux theme of “sacrifice for love needs to be reciprocated.” simultaneously, after sh’eenaz leaves the duke for a better option, geralt realizes the meaning of a little sacrifice and realizes how he has acted poorly towards yennefer, and seeks to make things right with her again. THUS we can have both ships and they wont conflict.

the sword of destiny - holy shit none of this romance drama shit matters AFTER ALL. actually it’s the CHILD which has been important all of this time, and it’s time to be responsible or invite doom across the threshold... ah wait okay doom has already entered the house. doom is eating tostitos and bean dip.

something more - following consequences of the end of the sword of destiny. obviously about ciri but yennefer and dandelion also have incredibly significant scenes in this short story and i think it’s just to represent that they’re also important in geralt’s life

beginning of blood of elves - yennefer and dandelion actually have a good conversation about everything including geralt and they basically matrue up and agree to never be hostile towards each other ever again. they both see that the others give him something that they cannot, and they’re not in competition with each other at all

tl;dr

[diarrheaworldstarhiphop]

Lmao I have to ask if you've heard JonTron's interview with Destiny on YouTube holy shit this guy

omg

ive had a number of asks like this on top of a posting backlog i want to get to.. i mean

fUCK

OK so i went to check it out and:

this horsehit is 2 hours long…

i was gluing manga to a wall and cutting out lil jebs and gabs to hide on it while i listened to it because fuck (below is the cut out sheet i made lol)

so i had my email open to write notes for later and this is what i wrote, no fixes or anything:

destiny is wrong -> 14 mins -14:30

both dumb at 16 mins for the commies and nazis statement. destiny is compared to commies for noooo reason?? I dont think destiny is backed up by communists???? as a bizarre kneejerk TU QUO QUe when jon tron is thrown a guilt by association argument from destiny because of the neo nazi followers of his. destiny says nazism is a race ideology while communism is an economic thing, i cant wrap my miand  around thisis. he has no idea what hes talking about. jon tron dumb cant adequently adders it either

none of them are using gaslighting right

jon tron loves saying tribalism

at 18:40 desitiny is ignorant as fuck with regards to riots. because he hasnt heard about it, therefore it doesnt exist, which is is about one of the most frustrating fucking things about this shitty clusterfuck of a debate besides jon tron asserting random made up facts and imploring destiny to look it up. Jon tron laughs and references the boiling frog analogy fittingly. Jon tron continues to bring in international examples while dentiny tries to reel it back to the USA and the USA alone. This is annoying on two fronts:

1. Jontron is merely refering to situations rather than go in depth, such as compare tibet to “displacing white perople” when what ttibet is experiencing is hardly comparable to american white flight since the chinese are engaging in conquest/imperialism/ethnic cleansing and the west just simply isnt replacing their own population enough on their own for their corporate overlords tastes, so immigration fills the economic growth hole for better or for worse in their super simplified concept of economy (see: economies stop growing when ethnic civil strife brings it to ruin). but destiny doesnt have a clue what happens outside of his boiases. ;et alone the country, to even call him out, howeever when destiny has the proper misinformation, he will assert things like how japan is dying off or worse off for its homogenity without backing up his argument as well. which is a sign of liberals generally being ignorant to world issues unless their favoured media makes it a big deal ie with japan needing immigration. It’s clear both jon tron and destiny are parroting shit in hilariously broken, scatter shot fasihion

destiny thinks america is the most diverse country in the world, which is fucking wrong. Both of these asshoelss are throwing out garbage statements that are flat wrong that benefit their respective close minded, unresearched biases. Niether of them know any better so they cant even properly dismantle eachother’s argument. Clearly jon tron, nor destiny showed up to the debate with notes or preparation, which is a given considering they are both hot headed gamer shithead youtuber Know-It-Alls becuase they heard something in passing before and just throw out the garbled memory of that soething in debate.

jon tron thinks white people are more libertarian?? for some reason? destiny throws out a garbled statement akin to that MY THING WAS MADE IN THIS COUNTRY WHICH HAD PARTS IN THAT COUNTRY DESIGNED BY THAT COUNTRY YADDA YADDA DIVERSITY IS AMAZING when all these components werent built by americans but by different nation states engaging with others/.

at 37 minutes jontron says rich blacks commit more crime than whites, with no source but smugly tells destiny to look it up, confounding the shit out of destiny and the chatroom becuase hes put the burden of researching a fact that doesnt exist on his opponent.

destiny has

at 42, destiny is called a virtue signaller by jon tron, who is running through a list of things he learned a week ago on a mr metokur video to call destiny, which is every bit as cringe and awful to watch as the australian mp who called another sitting member of government out for man splaining

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOXh5repOWI

desinty throws back a solid rebuttal that jontron side steps going “what im saying is…” and totally fuckign forgets what destiny even said 10 seconds later because jon tron is running through his recently learned, stupid diluted “”facts”” rather than listen and speak to any argument of destiny’s, especially in cases like this when destiny lands a solid question

at 45, destiny gussies globalization with how its great and necessary it is and how cutting off bringing in workers to make stuff in the usa (spoilers: jobs leave the USA, not come in) and trade would lower american standard of living since iiphones will be worth $3000 which is the most liberal, whitest fucking statement of argument because, while yes, iphones would get more expensive, but at least they arent being made in slave labour assembly plants where workers commit mass suicide in protest to their working conditions and that the west isnt pilfering the future leaders and skilled workers from these societies that need them most.

destiny, true to his ignorance, thinks cheap shit is awesome because its made elsewhere, unaware that it’s only so cheap because people die and get crippled in hot, unregulated slave labour factorys making his shitty overpriced electronics

desinty is right though that the american identity goes beyond just being white, because american culture is informed by its various ethnic gorups and peoples, for example it’s black community that does a disproportionately great job of establishing culure, music, activism and art for america as a whole

jon tron again doubles back, shifts the subject to other shit and starts talking about balkanization upon facing a solid argument

at 48 i start to lose my fucking mind because they are talking at eachother and jontron accuses destiny of deflecting when it is jon tron doing all the deflecting. jon trons smug laughter is grating

jon tron has to rely on telephone game “MUH EUROPE” over and over because he cant acknowledge that america is exceptional in how it assimilates and functionas as a melting pot in a way that europe fucking cant, which is creating the situations jon tron fumbless at with greasy game controller fingers to conflate with the USA in the first place.

desinty then claims that germany’s economy is doing great because of taking in refugees, here again he is talking out of his rose tinted ass because not only is it too early to tell if they are mkaing germany money or not, but that the reality is that they are likely a net drain on the germany given other countries and historic precedent

at 50 mins destiny thinks anti-abortion is a white christian thing, further enshrinign his white, middle class, youtuber ignorance. i guess catholic latinx or muslims are pro-choice

at 1 hour desinty says “its ok to keep a country frfom progressing as much as it can in order to maintain a rcaial identity"destiny clarifies it as “stifling growth” which is exactly what jon tron was asserting, to which he goes yeah dude, japan etc and this fucking knob destiny asks jon tron why he came to america instead of japan then, thinking his strawman homerun is about to take off - until jon tron says he was born in amerca.. destiny goes “oh… well…  y-your parents/// ijjuhhhUHH FUCK IM NOT TALKING ABOUT JAPAN IM TALKING ABOUT TEH UNITED STATES!!! which is about the best backfire ive seen all debate long considering the smug setup for it destiny had. furhtemore, what the fuck does “progressing” entail?? Neve raxplained

which is funny because when it isnt a country desinty can use as an argument against jon tron, destiny shrieks IM TALKING ABOUT AMERICA to disguise his ignorance unless it befits him (japan)

soon after though, destiny catches jontron on his shit about slowing immigration down so they can “enter the gene pool”

jontron couldve articulated around this but jontron is a moron, so, he just stutters and gets walked all over

i want to stab jon tron. laughing nervously is anot a good cubstitute for a credible argument

destiny stinks, though he fucking is destroying jon tron because jon tron is regurgitating even more  regurgitated shit arguments gleaned from someone else than destiny, who at points is arguing from his own values.

i have stopped paying attention rea

“that is what im talkibg about” -jon tron, who cant articulate what the fuck hes trying to verbal diarrhea for himself

“my oral ulterior motive is to maximize economic growth, and to maximize the slice of the pie for everybody in the united states” -destiny

destiny’s disposition is clearly and decisively about maximizing economic growth, but it rests upon ignorant hopefulness that these immigrants will arrive and abandon their cultures and become “american"this simultaneously exposes destinys humanitarianism as self serving (so long as it leads to economic growht:) ) which is partly why the immigration model in countries like sweden have completely collapsed (jontron touches on sweden but clearly has no fucking clue besides MUH RIIOTS) beause they took on an ABSURD amount of migrants and immigrants thinking it will pay for itself and transform sweden into a post-ethnic nascent economic power like a jr. america, except what the swedes have done is import a shit ton of people to be a “humanitarian superpower” and threw the lot of them into commie block ghettos and stopped caring about them, assuming they would naturally become swedes, permitting the transformation of these immigrant slums and neighbourhoods into economic and cultural parallel societies that frequently are violent toward swedish authorities and outsiders visiting their area, hence the term "no go zones” where police are instantly attacked and services like ambulances require escort.

“how do you grow an economy if the populatio n is dying off” says destiny, unaware that people can reproduce and will do so the moment people die off enough for real estate prices to collapse from housing supply outpacing demand and wages to skyrocket and make living costs manageable to have enough children to make replacement rate. You know. Naturally rise and fall and rise again. as humanity has done naturally for fucking ever and has fared PRETTY WELL without having to drive the environment and civil stability into the shitter for the ponzi scheme INFINITE GROWTH meme. Destiny argues this yet has no fucking clue what he’s arguing for. fuck destiny, fuck this argument, fuck “economic growth” that means demand from immigration and globalization that makes 600 square foot apartments cost $750,000 and ramshackle crackhouses cost $2million in vancouver. wow, im really feeling the economic growth, fucker.

jon tron brings up the disproportionate violence of black youths, but when asked to explain that, jon tron backs out and laughs about how destiny asking jontron to clarify that point is just like those shows on CNN where people are trying to “TRAP YAH”

Yah, jon tron, it’s called backing up your argument

jon tron jesterly mentions crime rates being consistent across africa when destiny addresses the court systems in america, as if jon tron’s hints toward his earnest views on race were subtle enough

destiny asks jon tron to name 5 african countries

why??

who cares

i am finding myself wishing i were arguing in place of eachotehr, because i see where they are both coming from but are too busy screwin g up their delivery to actually win a point over eachother

they are literally just talking at eachother and calling it a debate

Jon tron accuses destiny of bringing up irish and italians when its convenient

…as if jon tron doesnt bring up MUH YUROP and other whatevers when it’s convenient.

i hate this

they both suck t this. Jon tron has dug a hole through the earth and is now reaching escape velocity with his shovel and is soon to break earths orbit

jon tron brings up turks and iranians being able to assimilate into a culture than a romanian and hungarian would. If jon tron were knowledgeable to pursue this point, he couldve described how Kurds (an iranian people) and turks often fight and engage in conflict with each other in say, Germany to the dismay of germans who expected these groups to assimilate, forget their animosities from their homeland and become good forklift simulator playing germans.

i ahve wasted my hour

i like how i stopped keeping track of time on the video and just started ranting, rambling at the halfway point

I loved it for moments like this tho:

lmao

i feel jon tron is going through a PHILOSOPHICAL AND INFORMATIONAL BLOSSOMING which i guess is taking the red pill for some people. So he is on the same tier as a 16 year old who just discovered holohoax and bell curve graphs for the first time on a 4chan thread loaded with A. Wyatt Man drawings.

He will eventually (hopefully) research for himself these positions if only because he’s constantly being stomped and fighting people over these regurgitated opinions. Which means he is going to try and read up on them to better argue them. Which means he is going to have a hangover of sorts when he realizes what he’s done lol

[rrightplacerighttime]

El cabron con los flores

I know what you think Putting on a leather jacket from the older brother, he wore it on his first date Even though this is not a date And your armpits beg to differ Your Target cologne And Clarks ashy from latecomers at church mistaking them for concrete Things you would never fucking wear for anyone Ever But you wanna look sharp For what its worth you have to do laundry too But that can wait

I know how you feel A hot iron about to touch your stomach blow torch to butterflies stuck to leftovers And simultaneously to the peace of above ground train rides You and her The right side of her face on your left shoulder Everything moving right past you The world from coney island reversed But her face never budges You feel it even when it rains There is no umbrella Let the drops see my happiness for once

I know how it goes You wait after her event ends And give her the gmo daisies from the guy sitting on a milk crate You learn later on that she loves the color orange Old books And Ducle de leche Somehow despises chocolate And her arm is shades of Clemente If he ever had a fat ass and some braces She almost bombed a mexican barbecue betting she could throw a rock further Then you sit with her over eggrolls and seseme chicken More leftovers for butterflies that aint goin fuckin nowhere now Mindless chatter and semantics at the same damn time Playlists for days Hot wings Hotter carribean islands Near death experience stories at 3 am That Kmart you both were at the same day at different times Week after week youll ask the same question of How did i ever live without her? - You ask the question staring at her While both of you Lay on the grass Little spic children running in the background Some of them leaping like theyre invincible Some of them crying Holding their arms that will be fine Legs that will run again Copies of yourselves You stare at her unflinching Everything is almost right with the world Except she cant even look at you past 7 mississippi without looking to the side Or down Somethings on your mind And she shakes her head yes And you know Its her old boy that died Went to bed one night and never woke up You can tell its him in the way her chest moves So heavy Clutching her purse The photo booth pictures she still has of him The second and third one hes kissing her And then she kisses you to try and buff out the thought How did i live without you? - The answer being with your hand down your pants and exacto knifes making out with your legs Self sex and stencils I love you I love you too Even though she is easily irritated and highly flamable - Thank God for google maps Or she wouldve never smiled for the photo pictures from the concert that she did and even though you cant stop acting like a child Overnight apologies Morning flights to funerals You sleep on the plane and dream about how she told you She wanted to drive to south america Then you wake up And you remember you dont even got a fucking drivers license And you wont for another 4 years The movies shit so you go back to sleep And you dream about nothing Nothing Nothing but God can help you Oh but dont worry He will You love each other A love strained when youre late to pick her up Or when you say something that triggers her But Your mouth is a war zone Which is new to the both of you And when you give silence a try it just makes it worse The love is still there brown leaves over faces Slow dancing in pharmacies Infront of the greeting cards Chicago songs still make you tear up Pussy Cold walks to the train Taking turns with hands in each others pockets Because neither of you wants to let go

I know how it ends Standing in front of her never thinking you could feel this distant The things she says without saying them Thats what you loved the most about her Never wasted a word When the moment was honest You begin to think after she dumps you All the times that she told you she loved you How sometimes she would repeat it over Again and again Like when you tell the ghosts outloud That they are not real The more you say it the more you begin to believe it Instead of accepting what you know is true She doesnt say in front of you this time And the few times she will text it to you Wont exactly bear the same meaning She picks up her head from your shoulder And gets on a plane And never comes back Extra time apart from her Turns into forever

But see YOU do not end Just reset You catch glimpses of her Sit across from someone who looks just like her Both times you say nothing You do nothing but look and walk away You talk about her in pieces to your friends The female ones who you dont mess with Who kinda thought you were gay at first And tell you this when you get cool like that Just pieces Never the whole thing at once Thats even worse than alcohol poisoning They tell you to just forget about her Words of advice While they put on leather jackets Dont go back to her Delete her friends Delete her number (which she changed) Try and get some other girls numbers Even though they dont really catch your eye Do not go back to her Do not go back to her Do i really have to say it a third time? No i get it, twice is good one for each face In the meantime You make some shitty paintings Walk to harlem To brooklyn Only two shots to date Because the sting in your throat is ugly dance with some wives at weddings The beer is fantastic And now youre black John Travolta in suspenders When youre sober You get a decent job And her name is on everything you touch Wonderful But its no big deal I aint mad anymore, B So UPS can keep looking You buy new clothes Sign up for driving lessons Because fuck Peru The Mets lose another World Series And you actually read books now At holiday parties in the heights You hold your sister in laws child And you Look at the way he smiles at you And you just hope, on the ride home That no one ever takes that away from him At the end of star wars, you cry now which you never did Because everything dies by the big asthmatics red lightsaber Everything but hope That same night you set an alarm for 4am You go to sleep and you dream about nothing. Nothing.