#Ancient Iberian Cultures

[gwydpolls]

Time Travel Question 48: Early Modernish and Earlier 3

These Questions are the result of suggestions a the previous iteration.This category may include suggestions made too late to fall into the correct earlier time grouping. In some cases a culture lasted a really long time and I grouped them by whether it was likely the later or earlier grouping made the most sense with the information I had. (Invention ofs tend to fall in an earlier grouping if it's still open. Ones that imply height of or just before something tend to get grouped later, but not always. Sometimes I'll split two different things from the same culture into different polls because they involve separate research goals or the like).

Please add new suggestions below if you have them for future consideration. All cultures and time periods welcome.

[useless-catalanfacts]

The archaeological site Iberian Citadel of Calafell (Penedès, Catalonia) was a fortified residence built by the Cessetani people (one of the Ancient Iberian peoples) and inhabited between the 6th and 2nd centuries BC. Its destruction was probably due to the Roman occupation.

A part of the archaeological site has been rebuilt in the original techniques to serve two purposes: one, it allowed archaeologists to research the building methods through experimental archaeology; and two, to show what an Ancient Iberian village from around the year 200 BC would look like. You can see the result in these photos: the foundations and lower part of the walls are made of stone to keep out the humidities from the ground, and the rest of wall is made of rammed earth, with ceilings using wooden beams and reed fences. The research focused on those elements that rarely leave a trace, for example the inclination of the roofs (when the walls and roofs are made of a material that doesn't resist the passage of time, like rammed earth) and water draining.

Photos from Enoturisme Penedès and Visit Calafell. You can find the results of the reseach in the article linked here.

[ancientstuff]

These are beautiful.

[historyfiles]

Arevaci Culture: the Arevaci were nominally a Celtic tribe, one of a mass of such tribes in pre-Roman Iberia, but that Celtic ethnicity certainly involved several layers of Celtic migration, plus Iberian influences which could still be detected.

[bernievm]

Imagine discovering an #ancient #alphabet by sheer chance—a script that belonged to a long-lost civilization.

This is precisely what happened recently, shedding light on a forgotten culture that once thrived in what is now modern-day #Turkey.

The 20-centimeter (7.8-inch) #tablet was recently unearthed during an archaeological dig near the #Spanish town of #Guareña. Known as Casas del Turuñuelo, the site belongs to the late #Tartessian civilization that developed in the southwestern #Iberian Peninsula around 2,500 years ago.

When the Spanish National Research Council revealed the discovery on June 6, they simply explained that it depicted battling individuals who were identified as warriors.

The news caught the attention of Joan Ferrer i Jané, a computer scientist and expert in #Paleohispanic #languages at the University of Barcelona, who quickly realized the artifact was even more significant than the initial reports had suggested.

The newly found inscriptions promise to unlock secrets of the past, offering insights into the language, culture, and daily life of a people lost to history.

This remarkable find not only enriches our understanding of ancient civilizations but also sparks curiosity and excitement about the mysteries that still lie beneath the earth.

Read more at IFLScience.

https://www.iflscience.com/ancient-alphabet-of-a-long-lost-civilization-stumbled-upon-by-chance-74835

[iberiantalesif-game]

Genres: Heavy romance, Fall of your entire culture, Ancient history slice of life, Found family

Rating : 16+ for depictions of violence, mature themes and language. (List to be expanded on)

Summary

Life was once tranquil on the isolated coast of your city, surrounded by a loving family and promising prospects for success in your societal position. However, tranquility shattered when the Romans emerged victorious in the Punic War against Carthage, signaling the impending demise of the Iberian people.

As flames engulf your city, escape becomes the only viable option, if luck favors you enough to evade the soldiers blocking your path that is.

Yet, amidst the chaos, you realize that the existence of a stray and that of a Roman slave may not be so disparate.

If the gods truly have a plan for you, their track record thus far suggests they're not worthy of your trust either. But when a fate worse than death is upon your door, you really cant get picky can't you?

Features!

Assume the role of a member of an Iberian civilization dwelling along the coast.

Customize your protagonist's background as a warrior, priest, or noble, shaping both personality and appearance.

Flee from the Romans (or choose otherwise) and embark on a quest to find a new place to call home.

Reconnect with or forge new bonds to create your newfound family, if circumstances allow.

Decide between preserving your culture from extinction or embracing the dawn of new societal norms, and confront the repercussions of your choices.

Engage in romantic pursuits with one of the available romance options. (Witch will be expanding as the game develops and progresses)

The RO´s Cast

Theodosius (Theo) Aurelius [He/Him]

Theo resembles his father´s features, tall, blond and with eyes coloured by the sea. He also has a cold temperament and a tendency to keep people at arm's length.

But being a powerful Roman family heir might make him a good ally. The truth is that you have no option but to please him or his father who bought you, all in hopes of a change of fortune. Or so you tell yourself, as the cold man shows you a mercy not proper of Romans. Maybe they are not as beastly as you thought after all?

Tropes: Snow Prince with warm heart, Fake love to Soulmates.

Eon[He/Him]

Eon is a huge man, with signature red hair, heavily tanned skin and a green stare. So is his entire family, a mercenary group from the northern city of Numantine.

With a world of differences in between and a war that has shaken the safety of the entire peninsula, he is as good a bet on survival as it gets. But when the times can't seem rougher, this giant man offers a sweetness that you have rarely known amidst despair, maybe one strong enough to survive hunger?

Tropes: Buffed fluff/could kill and is a cinnamon roll.

[archaeologicalnews]

Ancient human remains buried in Spanish caves were subsequently manipulated and utilized

Caves served as sites for burial and later modification of human remains for thousands of years in the Iberian Peninsula, according to a study published September 20, 2023, in the open-access journal PLOS ONE by Zita Laffranchi and Marco Milella of the University of Bern, Switzerland, and Rafael Martinez Sanchez, Universidad de Córdoba, Spain, and colleagues.

The use of caves as burial sites is a cultural phenomenon with a broad distribution in both space and time. In the southern Iberian Peninsula, this practice became particularly common starting around the 4th millennium BCE. Also common in the archaeological sites of this region is evidence of manipulation of buried human remains, although the cultural meaning behind this is largely unclear. Read more.

[madamlaydebug]

Moor or Moreno is a Spanish word that has several meanings, including "dark-skinned" or "brown-skinned". It can also refer to someone who has a dark complexion.

The Moors who rulled Spain..

Tariq ibn-Ziyad

In A.D. 711, a group of North African Muslims led by the Berber general, Tariq ibn-Ziyad, captured the Iberian Peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal). Known as al-Andalus, the territory became a prosperous cultural and economic center where education and the arts and sciences flourished.12 Dec 2019

Ancient African Kingdoms

Black history

[beautiful-basque-country]

I saw something on TV once, I think it was a National Geographic show, where they mentioned that theory that Basque is perhaps the only surviving language from when Neanderthals were alive. Do you mind me asking why you mentioned in that recent post you didn’t want to comment on the theory?

Is it because most people use it as a racist attack? Deplorable, and those people deserve to be smacked.

The show did like a 15 minute segment on the theory and went over how the language is an isolate and compared to other languages, while it is evolving, it hasn’t really been changed/impacted by other languages. So ultimately the current language and older forms of it aren’t drastically different, unlike how something like modern English and Old English are basically two different languages at this point. They then said it’s likely that if any writing existed from the Neanderthal period anyone who knew Basque would probably be able to read it and speak whatever was written without much difficulty.

I just thought it was so cool something could be so well taken care of and respected that it basically hasn’t changed. Fascinating to think someone today could hold a conversation with someone else from so long ago! Lord knows I’d be screwed if you dropped me into the Middle Ages and told me to go speak to King Alfred.

Even Latin! We have no idea how it was actually spoken and how anything was pronounced. We’re just guessing.

Sorry if other people toss that theory at you to insult you!

Kaixo anon!

Thanks for your message!

I have to clarify the post you mentioned was a reblog and I just added the last pic, so you'd have to ask OP about why they don't wanna comment on that theory ^_~.

That said, no: I don't care what that documentary said, Basque is not the language of the Neanderthals. They're believed to have appeared around 200,000 years ago and disappeared 40,000 years ago; even if we consider that Basque was a descendant of their language - and that's assuming Neanderthals spoke a single language, from Europe to Asia - it's completely impossible that a 21st-century Basque speaker could understand this presumed original Neanderthal language.

The Hand of Irulegi - an artifact around 3,500 years old - displays a Vasconic text and nobody knows what it says, and that's knowing that Vasconic was an ancestor of nowadays Euskara. Even nowadays, a Spanish speaker can't understand Latin - except maybe a couple of words - and Spanish diverged from Latin not too long ago, around the 10-11th century. Can you imagine a 40,000 years gap between two languages??

And of course Basque have been impacted by the surrounding languages. Basque people haven't lived isolated in an island with no contact whatsoever with other peoples, quite on the contrary, we've lived with many cultures thoughout our history, from Iberians to Romans, to Franks, to Berbers and Arabs, to Spaniards. Basque has influences of all of them, be it loanwords or more technical remains. As you say, it's an evolving language that hasn't started evolving now, it's been doing it for millennia!

Regarding the theory being thrown as a racist attack, don't worry, it isn't! It all comes from genetics and genetic studies that show some very little differences in Basque people. In some of these studies it was concluded that Basque and Asturians, probably due to the difficult geography of our regions, were left more isolated from the Iron Age on, and hence we have the oldest lineage in Iberia. This is explained by guessing that these populations were less multiethnic and probably more endogamic. Given this situation, the DNA is slightly different - slightly! - and we have more DNA that comes directly from prehistory than the rest. Period.

But there's this obstinacy to take Basque people - just like Aztecs or Ancient Egyptians - as a mystery because there are many gaps in our history and language that science hasn't still explained and some people feel the need to fill them with crazy theories. Like the one that said that Neanderthals didn't go extinct but that nowadays they're known as.. Basques! When we already know that Neanderthals were a completely different species from Homo Sapiens: so if modern Basques are Homo Sapiens now as we know we are, I'm sorry, but we're no longer Neanderthals if we ever were.

Sorry for the long answer!

[probablyasocialecologist]

As used, the term ‘precolonial’ Africa and the distortions it represents cannot illuminate our understanding of Africa and its history. More importantly, it is wrong to think of colonialism as a non-African phenomenon that was only brought in from elsewhere and imposed on the continent. Africa has given rise to a rich tapestry of diverse colonialisms originating in different parts of the continent. How are we to understand them? For example, if ‘precolonial Morocco’ refers to the time before France colonised Morocco, it must deny that the 800-year Moorish colonisation of the Iberian Peninsula, much of present-day France and much of North Africa was a colonialism. For, if it were, then ‘colonial Morocco’ must predate ‘precolonial Morocco’. I do not know how any of this helps us understand the history of Morocco. Similarly, a ‘precolonial’ Egypt that refers to Egypt before modern European imperialism would also deny Mohammed Ali’s colonial adventures at the head of Egypt in southern Europe and Asia Minor. Was ancient Egypt part of some precolonial formation? That strains credulity. To conceive of the history of Africa and Africans in terms only, or primarily, of their relation to modern European empires disappears the history of Africans as colonisers of realms beyond the continent’s land borders, especially in Europe and Asia. It is bad enough that the term distorts the history of African states’ involvement in overseas provinces. It is worse that it misdescribes the evolution of different African polities over time. The deployment of ‘precolonial Africa’ is undergirded by a few implausible assumptions. We assume either that there were no previous forms of colonialism in the continent, or that they do not matter. We talk as if colonialism was brought to Africa by Europe, after the 1884-85 Berlin West Africa Conference. But it takes only a pause to discover that this is false. African history is replete with accounts of empires and kingdoms. By their nature, empires incorporate elements of colonisation in them. If this be granted, Africa must have had its fair share of colonisers and colonialists in its history. When, according to the mythohistory (the founding myth of the empire) of Mali, Sundiata gathered different nations, cultures, political leaders and others to form the empire in the mid-13th century, he did not first seek the consent of his subjects. It was in the aftermath of their being subdued by his superior force that he did what Jean-Jacques Rousseau in the 18th century insisted all rulers should do if their rule is to escape repeated challenges and last for an appreciable length of time: turn might into right. Ethiopia, another veritable empire, is a multinational, multilingual, multicultural state whose members were not willing parties to their original incorporation into the polity. Whether you think of the Oromo or the Somali, many of their successor states within Ethiopia are, as I write this, still conducting anticolonial struggles against the Ethiopian state.

[15-lizards]

Imo there is not enough Valyria content out there so I would LOVE to see your thoughts/headcanons on what the geography, city, fashion, etc. looked like

okay this ones a little difficult because even though Valyria is clearly inspired by Rome, I don't like roman (aka greek) architecture for them it just doesn't really fit to me. Honestly its hard to assign any real life inspo because the existence of dragons would have had some major impact on the society as a whole, architecture included

However, if I had to pick a type to ascribe to Old Valyria, my first choice would be a twist on Hindu architecture. I am absolutely obsessed with the sheer amount of details on the buildings (especially the Meenaskshi Temple at the bottom, everyone please go look at more pictures of it it's gorgeous). It's incredibly complex but also tends to be very symmetrical, the styles perfected over hundreds and hundreds of years. I also really love the idea of the spaces being open and well lit, it fits well.

Another alternative is traditional Chinese architecture, with the added bonus of dragon motifs that are already there :D Another type of architecture with an intense focus on details, symmetry, and how the design of a space affects a person. Architecture is a reflection of where a society is in their development, and I find that this could be a good inspiration for Valyria, an advanced culture with the excess time and resources to build things like these.

Woof okay clothing is all over the place I need to brainstorm and tighten my focus on different inspos (also I wish I could draw well so I can blend these styles properly but alas...anyways we ball). The main thing is mediterranean cultures I know that much. The Iberian Peninsula, Rome, Greece, the Minoans, Malta, Cyprus, etc etc all the ancient clothing and traditional costumes from around the Mediterranean Sea. Valyria was in a warmer, damper climate, meaning lots of loose fabric that could let air through but wouldn't weigh you down. Also doubling as shields from the sun. You get the gist I use this type of clothing all the time.

Okay Random Cultural Things Time

Art and literature? honestly really important because while yes this was a conquering civilization, they needed their exploits to live on in wall frescoes and written epics and dramatic pantomimes. I think they were literate, and probably spread written Valyrian to all the colonies, so that they were easily assimilated. People particularly fond of their dragons had pictures of them made and statues sculpted so that they would live on after their death.

Sports and entertainment also pretty big as well. Valyrians were a highly competitive people To Me so I think that riding, swimming, wrestling, racing, and other games were popular with the people, even those in the higher classes. Also fuck it I bet they raced their dragons. A really tall amphitheater where rich men lost money as they watched dragons circle around the ring. Or fight in midair, if the dragon riders were prisoners or sentenced to death.

As for religion, the Valyrians worshipped the gods that gave them dragons, but also tolerated the other faiths of the places the conquered, just in order to ease tensions (and because they had no dragons so why would they worship dragon gods). I like the idea of Roman household gods, with small altars in every home. Statues of the gods of the home, along with any gods a particular family might favor, along with ancestor veneration and dragon veneration. Dragon skulls and dragon masks on the walls baby!

[jackredfieldwasmyjacob]

they just discovered an alphabet in the el turuñuelo tartessic site !!!!! this is huge !!!!!!

the tartessic culture is the oldest in the iberian peninsula, located in the southwestern corner of the peninsula and dated to around the 9th century BCE to the 5th/4th century BCE. in this map you can see in the brightest red the core of the culture, in darker red the dispersion to the north in later centuries, and in light red its cultural sphere, which spanned almost half of the peninsula.

if you are interested in the culture, i have a post about them.

el turuñuelo is an archaeological site located in guareña (guadajoz), in the northernmost point of the tartessos culture. it is with no doubt the singlemost important tartessic archaeological site, and i would even go on to say it is the biggest archaeological discovery of this century - at least in europe.

it was discovered in 2015, and it is a sanctuary or some sort of temple complex, which at first made the news because of its incredible state of preservation: a complete set of stairs and the remains of a horse hecatomb with at least 17 complete bodies were found in 2017.

it already was the most important tartessic archaeological site just because of that (there are very few tartessic sites and most of them are not very well preserved), but after the excavations halted during covid, these last few years they returned to the site and they have made amazing discoveries. the most well-known and televised one, that made it to the news and i got to see when they set up an exposition about them last summer, are the faces of el turuñuelo in 2023, the first ever representation of tartessians by tartessians. i made a post about them, if you are interested.

this year they not only found a large collection of tartessic ceramic - which lets us know that the temple was also an artisan and probably commercial center as well, as it was usual in ancient religious centers - but just a few days ago they discovered a slate plaque with human figures, that seem to be a sort of trial drawings made by some artisan

if they seem familiar, that's because it is in one of these plaques where the alphabet has been able to be traced down, being able to be confirmed only today (11/06/2024). this is only the third southwestern paleohispanic alphabet ever founded - an alphabet derived from the phoenician one - and the most recent. it is also distinct from the other two previously discovered ones, seeing some sort of dialectalism in the way this alphabet (or set of alphabets) worked. more importantly, it is the first one to note a tartessic language, which we know was not indoeuropean in nature and also distinct from the iberian languages of the mediterranean coast. this was a distinct language or languages.

this is very exciting not only because we have a tartessic alphabet, but also because we know from greek authors like strabo that tartessians were known to be scholars that had large libraries with all sorts of knowledge of the past. we also know that the greeks interacted with the tartessians. so. it is possible that, if el turuñuelo had one of these archives that strabo talked about, that more writting can be salvaged and not only that, we could find a bilingual text in tartessian and greek that could act as a rosetta stone to finally descipher tartessian, the oldest known language in the iberian peninsula.

i cannot wait to see what el turuñuelo brings us next, it's so very exciting !!!!!!!

[useless-catalanfacts]

In various cities of the Ancient Iberians (Ancient Iberians were the indigenous cultures that lived in the Eastern coast of the Iberian peninsula before they got conquered by the Roman empire), archaeologists have often found skulls perforated by a nail. All of them have been found in the cities located in what nowadays is the Northern half of Catalonia (Ancient Iberian cultures, though related to each other, varied a lot area to area).

These are believed to be the skulls of their enemies, who were captured and beheaded. The enemy’s heads were nailed to the city walls or above the entrance door to houses, together with their weapons. Most of these heads belonged to individuals of the male sex, though some are female and a few belonged to children.

The Ancient Iberian language hasn’t been deciphered and their contemporaries didn’t write much about them, thus many aspects of their culture aren’t known for certain. Archaeologists have the hypothesis that this practice could be related to the way Celts exhibited the heads and hands of their enemies as war trophies, or related to a belief present in the ancient Mediterranean according to which cutting someone’s head off stopped them from reaching immortality. The Gauls even passed down the beheaded heads of their enemies to their children, as a prized possession that brought prestige. It’s a possibility that Northern Iberians were in touch with this practice.

Photos from the Ancient Iberian site Ullastret (Comarques Gironines, Catalonia) posted on National Geographic. Information from Rovirà i Hortalà, 1998 and MAC Ullastret.

[duskofastraeus]

Language Goals 2024

{Chinese (Mandarin)}

Go through the Peking University lectures from HSK1 to HSK4

Go through the HSK official textbooks from HSK2 to HSK4

Watch more Chinese dubs in order to better my listening comprehension

{French}

Go to France for a 2 week long French culture and language intensive course

Revise my B2 notes and start delving into C1 material

Read at least 5 books in French

{Spanish}

Revise my B1 and B2 material + exercises

Improve on my daily exposure to European Spanish

Read at least 5 books in Spanish

{Russian}

Recover my Russian by picking up B1 and B2 textbooks

Better my weekly exposure to Russian (audio and translations)

Read at least 2 books in Russian

{Italian}

Do my university exam and pass with a decent grade

Revision + exercises from B1-B2 level textbooks

Translate/read Italian everyday for 20 minutes

Improve my Italian exposure by listening to podcasts daily

{Latin}

Pick up Latin again (study on a weekly basis)

Finish the ‘Reading Latin: Grammar and exercises’ series

{Catalan}

Read ‘Complete Catalan’

Delve more into the history of the language

{Galician}

Read a Galician Grammar and Vocabulary textbook

Read ‘A companion to Galician Culture’

{Others…}

Read ‘Origen y Gramática del Romance Andalusí’ and delve more into the history of Mozarabic and dialects spoken during the Andalusian Period throughout different Iberian regions

Maybe start studying Greek or Ancient Greek… Highly depends on how my summer studying will be structured.

These are quite ambitious goals but I do hope to be able to at lest cover 70% of what is present within this list (depending upon my university’s workload…of course…).

[blueiscoool]

First Ever Human Depiction of Lost Tartessos Civilization Uncovered in Spain

Archaeologists representing Spain’s National Research Council (CSIS) excavating at the site of Casas del Turunuelo have uncovered the first human representations of the ancient Tartessos people.

The incredible results of an excavation that shed light on a mysterious and ancient civilization that flourished in southern Spain several centuries before Christ have been presented by Spain’s National Research Council.

The Tartessians, who are thought to have lived in southern Iberia (modern-day Andalusia and Extremadura), are regarded as one of the earliest Western European civilizations, and possibly the first to thrive in the Iberian Peninsula.

In the southwest of Spain’s Iberian Peninsula, the Tartessos culture first appeared in the Late Bronze Age. The culture is distinguished by a blend of local Paleo-Hispanic and Phoenician traits, as well as the use of a now-extinct language known as Tartessian. The Tartessos people were skilled in metallurgy and metal working, creating ornate objects and decorative items.

Archaeologists from Spain’s National Research Council (CSIS) on Tuesday presented the amazing results of excavation at the Casas de Turuuelo dig in Badajoz, in southwest Spain, as well as the results of the excavation.

Five busts, damaged but two of which maintain a great degree of detail, are the first human and facial representations of the Tartessian people that the modern world has ever seen.

The ornate depiction of the stone busts, as well the inclusion of jewellery (hoop earrings) and their particular hairstyles, resemble ancient sculptures from the Middle East and Asia. 

These “extraordinary findings” represent a “profound paradigm shift” in the interpretation of Tartessian culture, excavation leaders Celestino Pérez and Esther Rodríguez said during the press conference.

Given the scarcity of Tartessian archaeological finds thus far, this ancient society is shrouded in mystery.

Tartessos’ port was located at the mouth of the Guadalquivir river in what is now Cádiz, according to historical records. In the fourth century BC, Greek historian Ephorus described it as a prosperous civilization centered on the production and trade of tin, gold, and other metals.

What is unknown is where the Tartessians came from, whether they were an indigenous tribe with Eastern influences or a Phoenician colony that settled beyond the Pillars of Hercules (the Strait of Gibraltar).

The team from Mérida’s Institute of Archaeology believes two of the busts discovered in what is thought to be a shrine or pantheon represent Tartessian goddesses, despite the fact that Tartessian religion was previously thought to be aniconic (opposed to the use of idols or images).

The stone busts’ facial depiction, as well as the inclusion of jewelry (hoop earrings) and their specific hairstyles, resemble ancient sculptures from the Middle East and Asia.

Archaeologists believe that the two goddesses, along with three other sculptures that were significantly more damaged, were part of a stone mural depicting four deities watching over a Tartessian warrior, as one of the defaced busts has a helmet.

The ornate effigies, which are thought to be around 2,500 years old, are also significant for art historians, as Ancient Greece and Etruria (an ancient civilization in modern-day central Italy) was previously recognized as the epicenters of sculpting during this time period.

By Leman Altuntaş.

[ashoss]

Child of Venus (or alternatively a legacy) Tim Drake. 

First really quickly going to run down some very basic history quickly. 

Roman Venus comes from the Greek Aphrodite, who comes from the Western Semitic goddess Astarte, who is known by the ancient Mesopotamian as Ishtar and earlier Ianna. 

This is an extreme overview of thousands of years of history, but it conveys my point. I want to explore all of these aspects quickly before I get into my thoughts on how this connects. (Also, like an extreme basic rundown of things that people might not know)

Ianna - is the goddess of love and war (along with several other fields) but is also heavily associated with divine law and political power. An interesting fact is that she was actually a three-form goddess. She went from a fairly localised deity to one of the most venerated deities across Mesopomeia. When the Assyrians took over, she became the highest deity, even above their national ones. She was so popular and essential that she is alluded to in Hebrew text. She didn’t experience a proper decline until the period between the 1st century CE and the sixth century CE when Christianity became widespread. She was in more myths than any other Sumerian deity.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna 

Astarte - is the goddess of these associated combinations: war, royal power, healing, and hunting (and several others). The travels, trade, and colonisation of the people would end with her being worshipped and an accepted deity in many places, from Egypt to the Iberian peninsula. She is considered to be the equivalent of Isis in some schools of thought. Her worship would land in Cyprus, where she could have merged with a local goddess and would slowly go to mainland Greece during the late Mycenean era or the following post-Broze age collapse. In the Greek classical period, she was occasionally equated with Aphrodite through (what a great many Polythetsic cultures did) the practice of synchronising deities.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte

Aphrodite - is the goddess of love, beauty, and passion (along with the others everyone knows). She is one of the twelve Olympians and is one of the most widely celebrated and worshipped deities in the Hellenic world. Some of her other epithets were Eleemon (the merciful) and Enoplios (armed). She was called Tymborychos (gravedigger) along with the previously discussed Areia (the warlike) in one of her darker, more violent natures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite_Areia

Venus - is the goddess of desire, prosperity, and victory. She is the ancestor of the Roman people through her son, and Julius Ceaser claimed to have been her ancestor. A couple of the epithets I want to highlight for a moment are Fleix (lucky), Genetrix (the mother), Physica Pompeiana (Pompeii’s protective goddess), Verticordia (charger of hearts), and Victrix (victorious) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_(mythology)

Okay, now let's move on to my thoughts because this consumed my brain so much that I needed to grab my computer and write it down. 

The Thoughts! 

I’ll start with the child of Venus and then do the legacy version. 

Janet and Venus. Imagine if, on one of the important archaeology trips, Janet comes across something important to Venus. It could be anything, whether it be the start of new ruins of a worship spot or a statue. Venus appreciates Janet's respect towards the findings and wants to know more about Janet. (There is also the fact that there is an extreme difference between the number of men and women in archaeology, especially field archaeology.) The two of them share a conversation where Janet shows interest in the history of Venus, and Venus herself drops the idea that the history behind Venus and the goddesses that precede her is also enjoyable. It was a test. Janet takes this information, wanting to have another conversation with the woman and learns as much as possible. Realising that she can do more field research, she sets it up. Venus appreciates this, and he wonders whether Tim is just the kid of Janet and Venus or if he has a three-parent setup. Tim exists. 

Did Venus more or less give Janet a quest? Yes. Does Janet regret it? No. It is a very cute and tragic set-up because to be favoured by the gods is to be doomed by them. You could change up their death a bit, too. To match the tragedy vibe. 

Tim grows up learning all about his parent's work. It may not have been his favourite, but he listened and learned. Tim, sent to boarding schools and in the comics, always saw school as a necessity but something secondary—Tim, who was often separate from his parents. What if when Dick Grayson’s parents died (Monster attack?), his parents realised just how dangerous the world is, and they sent him to different boarding schools to try and keep him safe. It could also explain some of Jack’s attitude. Knowing that Tim isn’t truely his. Knowing the reality that fate could hand his son. Explain why he often sits back to parenting, knowing that his son could die in tragedy young, but also why he clings sometimes. Why will he hammer down on parenting when he realises that he can’t protect his kid and his kid could die? 

Now onto Tim. Tim loves his city so much. Tim goes back to Gotham even when his whole family moves. Tim would do anything for Gotham. That is Passion and Love. That is dedication. Tim, who becomes Robin. Who must go through a much longer trail and training before becoming Robin properly? He who trained under Shiva, who Shiva sees potential for. He who chooses an unconventional weapon. One that does not quickly kill but requires skill and ability to use. (He is fighting a war in Gotham but also loves Gotham. He hurts and helps. He causes pain, and he saves. He brings himself to ruin to help his loved ones in his beloved city and make something better for the world he lives in.) 

Tim finds himself victorious most of the time but sometimes has to rely a bit on luck. He is Robin, a protector of Gotham. Tim, by the way of being Robin, is trying to create a better Gotham. Tim is the one who created the Batfamily as we know it. He often gets people to work together that do not work together very well. 

He is also well-travelled because he is Robin and a hero in general. He has been on multiple teams and has worked alone, and despite seeing what the world (the universe) has to offer, he is still from Gotham and will belong to Gotham. 

But tragedy follows him, and he ends up in front of the graves of his loved ones more often than not. His parents, his friends, and those he feels he has failed. Even with the best of intentions, people still die and leave, and generally, being Robin creates a tragedy. 

Tim being the first Roman in the family could be very alienating and make him feel like he has to prove himself, but also the idea that he would have to work harder to prove he can fight and be here, and people still underestimate him? Venus may have been significant, but people have inherent biases. No one would assume a child of Venus would be a skilled warrior despite the history of war. However, the opposite is how people would think he only got this far because of how important of a goddess his mother is. That he didn’t have to put in the hard work because he wasn’t expected to. 

I have many more thoughts, but they generally vibe without a coherent statement. If I find words for them, I’ll send another annon. 

~~~

The Legacy idea

One of the Drakes is a child of Venus who is doing archaeology because it is part of the quest their mother sent them on. They are constantly travelling because staying in one place could have put their son in even more danger. If you still wanted Tim to be tied to Athena, you could have the other parent be a child or a legacy of Athena. 

Annon AK

(btw if you guys are interested in aphrodite lore, i really enjoyed Overly Sarcastic Production’s video on her! theyve also done one on Dionysus, Hermes and Hades/Persephone - plus a ton of other myths and classics :))

Honestly i am so in love with aphrodite/venus child tim (no pun intended). while yes athena fits him in terms of intellect and wit- tim is more so defined by his love- for his friends, family, gotham itself. (and thank you @pooky-chan for telling me abt aphrodite tim, i feel like his love is such an underused part of his character.)

i think actually going into janet and jack's relationship with venus is super interesting! i hadn't really thought about how their birth/godly parent would effect any of their family dynamic at all.

tbh everything youve said is really great! i definitely couldn't have gone in that much detail for his background. thank you for sharing :D