#Also read an article at some point where he mentioned that it felt important to make sure that the queer romance would feel as significant

[thelostgirl21]

"...there’s something star-crossed about these two. There is a deep connection there, but the turmoil, war and politics of this world are pretty intent on pulling them away from each other." - Joey Batey (x)

Yeah...

Just so you know, if you're a guy with a 3 syllable name that begins with "R", and you so happen to experience a strong case of love at first sight for someone that sort of happens to be named "Juliet" or "Julian", you might find yourself facing a few obstacles getting in the way of your relationship.

Just saying!

[lindszeppelin]

I feel ashamed of the shippers, they are using the 2 photos that Kaia uploaded as their wallpaper, without knowing if it is Austin, and right now the ridiculous ones have the photo of her assistant as their wallpaper.

Regarding what the shipper commented in your anonymous comments, I want to say that the problem is not with Austin or that he is in a relationship and that we cannot stand him being with another woman other than us, because I have read that stupidity. Kaia earned our rejection because of how fake she is, for using Austin for her convenience and not respecting his privacy, Austin hates paparazzi and every time she is around they photograph him, we also know that she pays to have her photos taken for branding issues like many models do, but the difference is that to be relevant she has to use Austin's name in all those articles where they talk about his abs and his hair falling in his face 😂. In an interview she mentioned that their relationship is private and that she doesn't have social media on her cell phone, which is a big lie, we've seen her glued to Instagram thousands of times, but where Austin said the same thing and she doesn't have her own personality she decided to be interesting in that aspect. As for the privacy of their relationship, it's something that is clear that she didn't impose and that it was Austin's decision, which is why every time she's near him she needs to be photographed so people know they're still together, this tells me about a totally insecure person who needs her name to be linked to Austin's. And the most important point and the one that hurts us the most, is how unhappy Austin looks every time she's around, we follow him for his great talent, charisma and way of being, which is highlighted by all of us who know him, but when she's around he stops being that happy, gentlemanly and friendly person, doesn't that catch your attention? And you can't say that Austin is like that in his relationships, because he had a very exposed relationship where he naturally showed everything he is and the love he felt at that moment.

The lack of disrespect that Kaia has for Austin goes beyond the page, it's overflowing. She has never once showed Austin grace and kindness. Only if it benefitted her and her fame, her wallet, her name, then that's what makes her happy. Austin has gained nothing meaningful in this situationship at all. And his own fans don't show him the respect he deserves. All they care about are the same things...the popularity that comes with riding their coattails, the attention and the engagement online. So long as it benefits them, that's as far as their like for Austin goes. Kaia and them have a lot in common as far as their trash personalities, no wonder they flock to her so much. And no wonder they simp for her. Without Austin, both Kaia and the shippers have nothing going for them. The dissolution of their relationship means the end of the mooching and the attention seeking for both parties. It's truly revolting. This man needs a woman that will love him, care for him, and nurture him in all the ways that a good man deserves to be looked out for. His happiness is of top priority. Nothing means more than seeing him truly happy. The fact that he hasn't been photographed by anybody since she left for Paris speaks volumes. That's how it should be, him just living his life and walking around stress free without baggage. And some of these people in the fandom need a goddamn reality check before the universe slaps them with it.

[ad-hawkeye]

You can tag this under 50 Shades, but after I read this post from Hoyolab, hoyolab (.) com/#/article/19978642/, if this is true, I am very disappointed about this direction, though it is one I've seen coming. That being said, you've given your thoughts on the writing. In your ideal world, where would the cards post 2nd anniversary have gone, if you had to keep the general situation/environment, but could change up everything else about it?

holy fuck, the way i actually agree with everything in this post. here is the link for those curious, it's a fantastic read tbh.

a few of us in our tot discord have discussed this as well. here are a few brief snippets below.

sorry for the incoherent mess of thoughts below, words are Not coming easy HAHA.

but yeah... like the post said, barbie is a very good way of putting it.

i used to have the same issue with luke. i'm not a huge fan of characters being good at Too Many Things, especially when there's no flaws to balance it out. it really pulls me out of the story. so like. the more you try to impress me with a character, the less impressed i'll be. which. is why i haaaate artem's newer cards.

see, the thing is, the whole reason why i liked artem in the first place is because of how he felt like the down to earth option. he wasn't the childhood friend/undercover agent/detective/stem genius, he wasn't a ceo and son of the richest family in stellis, and he wasn't literal royalty. he was just a lawyer who worked with rosa. he was bad at talking to people. he was a bit of a homebody. he was LAME. completely inexperienced in romance. he was good at his job, but it was obvious he put all of his skill points into being a lawyer and no where else. his abilities with shooting and cooking were both important aspects to his character, but the skills hoyoverse added beyond that just baffle me.

he wasn't cool, but he was kind and genuine.

ever since second anniversary, there has been absolutely no consistency to artem's character whatsoever.

neil gets mentioned less and less even though he was a major part of artem's life AND character. neil was his father figure, since his parents were rarely, if ever, around. and yet, in recent cards, tot constantly goes out of its way to try and convince us artem's parents did nothing wrong. to add to that, we're lucky if neil is even mentioned.

in earlier cards, it was very clear artem was grieving neil's disappearance (see: entwined fate). it was also clear artem's childhood circumstances were extremely lonely and caused him to try and brush off the neglect because he didn't want to stress out his already busy parents (see: loving memories and his dreams of childhood sr)! earlier cards also hinted at traumatic events and a fear of firearms due to how dangerous neil's job as a lawyer was (see: focus fire).

but for god knows what reason, newer cards said well! fuck all of this! artem no longer gives one single shit about neil! also? honestly? the writers seem confused and disoriented by artem downplaying his childhood issues and just made it so he truly Had no issues with his childhood. which. ok. i guess.

in recent months, we have not had one single card where rosa and artem sit down to talk about how artem feels about neil's disappearance. one single card where artem even openly addresses any traumatic experiences. or emotional neglect in childhood.

remember when focus fire mentioned that a disgruntled mafia member held him and neil at gunpoint because he was pissed neil put everyone else in the gang behind bars?? no?? yeah, me neither! because it's never mentioned again! old tot content implies it was incidents like these, the general emotional neglect from his parents, and neil's disappearance that contributed to artem's closed off personality. but man, fuck that! for some reason!

this doesn't even touch upon artem's romantic and sexual inexperience, which has also been entirely undone. he's a sex god now, i guess.

and let us not forget how artem has learned and forgot the same lessons like, several times. artem did we not learn why jealousy and possessiveness are bullshit in atmospherics, por una cabeza, etc...??? are we really back at this again? and it's not even being addressed as a character flaw anymore? okay! okay. fine! whatever.

but okay. i'm getting off track. you asked me an entirely different question! where would i have liked to have seen the cards go? i think the cards following second anniversary are so... well, nothing that you could probably swap out the plots and avoid losing anything of importance.

honestly, i think artem's cards would have shined the best if they stuck to his original character. so when considering the confines we have now:

artem is extremely emotionally repressed. it'd take time for him to come out of his shell. and his early dating cards do begin like this! it's very endearing! several cards could focus on this progression as he becomes more comfortable and relaxed with rosa. progression into being engaged. living with someone for the first time. please.

rosa and artem's dynamic has like, vanished in recent cards. which is a goddamn shame, because their more comfortable dynamics in his railroad, revisiting youth, and snowfallen secrets cards are so charming! they joke around! artem's sense of humor pokes out! they act like real PEOPLE! they're silly! they're nerds! they're equals! i'd keep this dynamic instead of it just being artem flipping back and forth between sex god and "yes i will do whatever you want [insert player name here]"

neil. please, can we focus on neil. what being a lawyer means to artem. how neil influenced that. how artem feels about neil being gone, how artem feels about neil's possible betrayal of the nxx?? he could always have an arc of going through the stages of grief, or learning to look at things through a new lens. being sad neil won't be around for milestones. etc.

the incidents implied in focus fire. okay, being held at gunpoint is pretty uhhh fucking traumatic. did any other events happen bc of neil's status? his parents' statuses? is this why he is so emotionally repressed? is this why he takes the law so seriously?

his parents. can we stop acting like his parents did nothing wrong. please. his parents used to be portrayed under the "well meaning but ultimately very flawed" light, which i adored. it was grey. it was human. maybe artem could learn that it wasnt right of his parents to be so nonexistent in his life. his parents can still love him and make mistakes. maybe he could rebuild his relationship w his parents? maybe once he realizes what he went through wasn't normal, he can be angry, and work through it. idk! anything! please!

more focus on rosa. her studies. her exams. anything. her family. her past. her hobbies. her teaching artem something. rosa talking about her issues. pelase. Please.

it truly feels like his original writers got swapped out, and the new ones have no idea what artem's charm was in the first place. they have no idea how his character even works, so they're just desperately trying to attach Cool Hobbies to him bc they think he's more boring than the other boys when like. that's the fucking point, that IS his charm.

gosh this was so long and i'm sorry if it's like. UNREADABLE or if i totally missed the point but this was like. Freeing to type out. thank you for reaching out anon, it turns out i had more thoughts than i expected!! hope you're having a lovely day! : )

[just-antithings]

In terms of genuinely problematic art, I'd like people to look up "Authors Behaving Badly - TJ Klune" on YouTube

Slight correction (not same anon, but I've watched the video anon is talking about): Cerulean Sea was inspired by the Sixties Scoop, which "was a period in which a series of policies were enacted in Canada that enabled child welfare authorities to take, or "scoop up," Indigenous children from their families and communities for placement in foster homes, from which they would be adopted by white families" (Wikipedia). It's different from the residential schools but no less horrifying.

Klune found out about the Sixties Scoop by clicking on different wikipedia articles to read them. He felt inspired, but he also didn't want to write a historical fiction book based on it, as he's a white man and didn't feel like it was his place. Instead, he took part of the event (children being taken from their homes and placed into foster homes) and put it into a fantasy setting.

On it's own, the idea isn't uncommon in fantasy settings. Iirc, The Night and it's Moon uses a similar idea for part of the story, where the nun(?) running an orphanage buys children (fairy-related ones I think?) to later sell. Before Klune's interview, even those that saw a connection between what was happening in Cerulean Sea and the Sixties Scoop thought it was a coincidence.

Now, some things Klune has said in his interview is... not malicious but I'd argue tone-deaf and ignorant. Like when he says how in his book, the kids are stolen due to fear, and the way he says this makes it sounds like he's saying this about bigotry in general, which is a common stance but not right and puts the onus on those of us who are marginalized to be "not scary" or my beloathed "one of the good ones."

And in the video, the booktuber mentions how people are critiquing the sequel of Cerulean Sea, how it's coming out in September, which is Indigenous Heritage Month, and the booktuber claims that this seems to be Klune "doubling down" on how he's done nothing wrong. She (the booktuber) also claims that the fact that orange is a prominent color on the sequel's cover is also proof of this, due to Orange Shirt Day in Canada (which is a day to raise awareness about the residential schools). Two problems I immediately see about this claim: When going through a publisher, it's the publisher who chooses the release date, not the author, and on the cover is a phoenix (firebird?). Now, I haven't read Cerulean Sea (other than "it's gay," it didn't sound like something that would interest me), but based on fanart I've seen, a phoenix or firebird is very important to the story or one of the characters, and being on fire, of course it's going to be at least mostly orange. So this part at least is a reach, and based on the booktuber's past videos, I'm disappointed but not surprised she didn't at least entertain these arguments, especially when she does research for these videos.

Again, I did not read Cerulean Sea, I don't plan on reading the sequel, and I'm not indigenous. And while I'm not always the mentioned booktuber's biggest fan (she does make a lot of good points in plenty of her videos, and she's still miles better than others in being willing to admit when she's been wrong or reactionary, such as in her review for Ninth House), so take what I've said with a grain of salt.

The booktuber also brings up how Klune has been willing to learn and change with another book of his, and based on the quotes I've seen from him, I really think he's being ignorant, but not malicious. I do think his books can be criticized as being "white savior"-y after what's been learned from his interview, especially when there have been people who had already made the connection even before Klune verified his inspiration.

.

[mejomonster]

Sometimes reddit will hate on anything... I was looking up Three Body Problem themes to see if anyone had written any good articles on its political themes. Ran into a reddit sci fi thread tearing the books to shreds. Calling them badly written. I just?? Do some people not have proper critical reading skills? The answer is probably yes -.-

Valid critiques I saw (though on reddit they got intensified to super negative cause that's how reddit tends to go): 1. Characters exist primarily to move the plot, correct. The author definitely values using characters to tell his story over creating interesting characters for the sake of characters. So calling them cardboard is a fairly valid critique, especially given the characterization is given much less focus than the external plot. However I'd counter... you don't need character focused inner arcs to be good? Obviously? Ray Bradbury wrote characters like this, I loved his stuff. Twilight Zone did, I love that. Also I personally feel Liu writes close character perspective pov, and that adds an intimacy with these characters to make them feel grounded and unique even though they're more like you or me going through world events - human and realistic but not necessarily internally going through huge internal development specifically because of some world event (although his core characters do actually go through some decent internal arcs in my opinion). And I think he's aware of characterization as important, as in The Dark Forest his whole section about writing a novel and making a character who is alive in their own right? So fascinating and very interesting from the perspective of what it means to write. Both to interpret the author Liu and the character who made the written girl Within that arc. The writer man was going through some internal stuff all right... if a reader can't understand that without being explicitly told the guys emotions and fears and evolution then like... damn get better at reading? Please? They complained about poor writing in TBP but then also can't understand the elements of the story that aren't explicitly stated, such as emotional arcs and internal biases and feelings. A lot of the reddit reviewers could understand Ye Wenjie slightly, no doubt because the narrative has her EXPLICITLY say she hates humanity after hundreds of pages of obviously implying her fear and pain from page 1 (which I am guessing they needed that level of intense hammering to understand her?), and then the explicit sci fi ideas portion of the plot. I feel like... a lot of the humans grappling personally and as a species was not noticed by some readers. Also... as stated explicitly in Lius book notes: the books main characters are humanity and trisolaris! So of course humanity as individual characters feels lacking in the story! It's cause the sum of them depicts the main character of HUMANITY going through some shit. But something tells me the reddit reviewers who flamed TBP intensely just... definitely did not interpret the book as "main character humanity." -.-

Another fair critique they hammered to 11: that the sci fi mentioned in it is basic. That is true, a lot of the ideas in it aren't even science fiction theyre just basic science fact or one layer fiction into "What if." For me? That was enjoyable. A very Person of Interest qpproach where it feels like it could happen now in reality, which gave the story a grounded feeling in real political and social reality. Which the political UN elements and Space Force elements complimented. It also felt a bit like The 100 in that science mind blowing ideas isn't the point, the point is contemplating how humanity acts during problems. Which is relevant now to us due to global warming and always was and will be relevant to humanity and the world wide problems we face. So yeah, TBP is not the book to find uniquely mind blowing new ideas to contemplate in science future. But it does utilize some more common science fact and fiction ideas to explore humanity's nature and capacity for healing and hurting. Which is similar to Star Trek, The 100, and Person of Interests way of handling sci fi concepts. So it's a take it or leave it, because fair enough the topics aren't anything new. The only unique thing (maybe) I think this book does is really keep going with science instead of stopping at 1 single idea. But I think many novels do this, and TBP still only focuses on a few related science ideas so it stays relatively small scale in scope of exploration. It's ideas about human society and political response is more broad I think (again why it slightly reminds me of The 100).

Then of course, beyond cardboard characters and boring basic sci fi ideas... some people complained it was badly written. Goddamn... I must have a wildly different taste in writing. I wonder if these reviewers also hate Haruki Murakamis writing style? They'd definitely hate mine to bits! Mine is all biased close character pov and meaning/emptions implied and needing to be figured out oneself through interpreting the biased narrative and figuring out the truth not being directly said. I personally loved the writing style. I see critiques of his characters being somewhat basic, and overall plot structure being not ideal, as quite valid depending on the reader (if you interpret each character individually instead of as the whole "humanity" character the author intended then yeah the characters aren't much as they weren't intended to be, and the plot structure reminds me of webnovels which do wind and meander to degrees structurally lol). But actual style? What the fuck did some sci fi readers want??? Really thick paragraphs??? I have no idea. I have no idea how anyone read the chapter from the point of view of an ant and didn't think that was amazing and beautiful. I don't know how people read Lius use of nature imagery to depict people's emotions and felt the writing had no art to it and was too terse. I can only guess, again, somecpeople just cannot grasp a thing UNLESS it's EXPLICITLY said to them "he was heartbroken" rather than grasping from an imagery like "he looked at the sky turning red as the sun sank beneath the horizon" that oh I don't know maybe the character emotionally IS GOING DOWN TOO. BASIC SKILLS.... basic skills... I think the issue is partly that some reviewers have lacking critical reading and literary analysis skills tbh. I absolutely love Lius writing style. If it wasn't enjoyable and emotionally driven I wouldn't be able to read it lol.

I just. It's so funny to me how wildly different people can interpret stuff.

I fucking loved reading The Three Body problem, highly recommend if you have similar tastes to me. Friends, I'd love to know what yall thought of its artistic quality. Cause dang ToT

[calmwaterstarot]

Of course! I always welcome fellow spiritual people. 🔮

Thank you 💜

OK so this is going to be long but I just wanted to put it all in one message.

I want to preface that I'm an intuitive not a reader so these are just impressions that I get from the energy of reading the articles looking at photos and knowing a little bit of the history just based on your page and a few others.

I think that in terms of physical chemistry and sexual compatibility it does exist between the two of them. So the real energy that some people may be picking up is the physical connection. I think that she has a lot of placements as you may have mentioned and others in terms of cancer and other things that are touching important points in his chart that I feel were not activated at the time of other cancers like for example Minka.

But I think what happened mainly is a combination of timing and also image. I think he had a real problem with the chatter that was starting to start about him not being desirable as he was getting older because of the single bachelor thing. Personally I don't feel that he ever really wanted to be a bachelor, I expected it. I do think he has a problem with commitment but I think it's more a situation of really not connecting or going after the women he wants that are going to be a challenge that will keep him having to work for them so then he will be more interested in commitment because he has to keep working for it.

He needs to not be bored. And maybe it's that being with some cancer or other aspects like the moon and Scorpio that are making him want someone emotional but he's not getting that fire as well. And not the Leo type of fire where they are very self-sufficient and don't need him, he needs someone that wants to interact with him and fight with him and that sort of thing.

Those are really to me the types of women that I picked up with when you and other readers were talking about this Empress woman - that she had a pretty balanced chart as my assumption or at least that fire and water balance that matches his.

I think the thing with Alba is good enough at the right time with the right arrangement. I do believe he did pursue her, I do believe it was a physical thing and she may not even have been interested in the beginning but I think he was always interested at least physically. I don't think either of them expected it to go along as it did.

And I think at least in the beginning there was enough compatibility or enough commonality in terms of just their personality or energy together that they were like yeah OK I'm OK with hanging out with this person it's kind of fun or whatever.

I've always felt the issue for him is not so much the PR for him is the image of being one of those guys that dates younger women. I also think that there is a connection to his father which I don't know the full story with that but I think at least energetically he's giving me some serious daddy issues.

And so I think that there was a resistance against that and that was really the hesitation about putting everything out there. I know there's been some talk about the actual certificate. I don't believe that they're married but I do believe that they are going to act as a married couple, by that I mean they may not be legally married but they're going to go through all the steps in life.

And it's very possible that they will have a child together. This is a mutually beneficial relationship I think it keeps him in the news, it keeps her in the news as much as possible but also makes him look more desirable because she did get divorced or separate from her husband which I think will happen at some point and that's no ill will it's just the feeling that I'm getting.

But he will no longer be like the undesirable bachelor, with rumors of "what's wrong with him, is he gay" that unfortunately surround single guys. He didn't have the charisma and the confidence that George Clooney has although he had the looks so he could have pulled off the bachelor lifestyle like him or Leo DiCaprio but he didn't have the confidence for that.

So I think his insecurities pushed him to do this arrangement that kept going on and on and I do believe that she brings him some happiness, what level and why I don't know besides physical. I do think that she makes him feel confident in himself and in a way that he hasn't felt before. Whether it's true or not who knows.

Do I believe that there are some spirituality with this, absolutely yes I do believe witchcraft or magical thinking or any kind of things that people want to say, absolutely but do I believe that she has like a hex on him no. I think it's really about she feeds his ego naturally despite being who she is, being younger, being fit whatever people want to say it is but I think she feeds his ego and he needed that.

I don't think that he didn't want to wait for Empress, I think he just wasn't aware of how that works when you have to really wait, you can't be with anyone else. I don't think he thought it was going to ever be an option for him seriously.

I think if he were to have met her and I still have this feeling they may meet in the future, that he would have made a different choice. And what I mean by that is if he would have met her while he was dating Alba or even just the engagement or even the possible marriage rumors I think that would have put a hold on things, I absolutely feel that intuitively strongly and that hasn't changed it's only increased.

I think it was a thing for him, I don't know what the other options are, this is a pretty decent option why not, I have nothing to lose. I think he anticipated the backlash because let's face it, the majority of his fans are either split into fans because he's Captain America and he's part of the Marvel Universe and it's not even a personal thing he's just part of the whole universe so they're just part of Marvel fans, and then the other half is the women and some of the men who think he's hot and most of those people are close to his age or a little bit under, so like millennials and whatever generation he is because he's in his 40s. Sorry I'm a millennial so I don't really know the generation above us.

And he didn't want to piss off that group because that's the ticket buying group that will buy tickets for him when he's in Knives Out and all the other stuff. So I think it was just fear of that backlash as what all this hesitation was but I do think they were spending time together I do think this was planned I do think he does to a certain degree enjoy the company and I actually think he enjoys being around her he just didn't enjoy the backlash and all the other shit that came out of it.

Thanks for offering another point of view, anon!

"...he needs someone that wants to interact with him and fight with him and that sort of thing."

And who throat punches him when necessary. Or is it just me who thinks that?

[seapasture]

maple and harvest for the autumn asks !!

Thank you for the ask, Miki!! ⭐

maple - is there a hobby / skill that you’ve always wanted to try but never did?

I've always been really interested in clay sculpture! I would love to be left to my own devices in a studio with a block of clay for a day - it has always struck me as a really expressive artform and I really admire the way sculptors are able to create such evocative forms with just their hands and some tools. It's almost like painting but with further dimensionality. I'd be really keen to try it some day - maybe I should buy some airdry clay and start small!

harvest - what fictional character do you most identify with? Why?

Whew, what a question! It's difficult to simply pick one because I identify with various characters for many reasons. Seeing as he's been on my mind a lot today, I will say Mafuyu Satō from given!

Mafuyu is one of my all-time favourite characters - he is very dear to me and makes me feel very seen. When I watched given for the first time, he immediately stood out to me as a character I saw myself in. He is a reserved individual with a flat-affect, but do not be deceived into thinking he is unemotional! Mafuyu cares very deeply, to the extent that he struggles to move on from his past and often finds himself consumed by memories in the aftermath of trauma. The series explores the way Mafuyu has bottled up these feelings, and how this brings him a great deal of pain; he eventually finds a medium to express himself through and it becomes a rich and essential outlet to him. Mafuyu is soft, gentle, but also quietly opinionated and keen to use his newfound voice as a platform to help others. All of this deeply resonated with me as a viewer, and I have held him in my heart ever since.

I also watched the series at a time where I was trying to better understand myself, and it meant a lot to see the depiction of a canonically queer character in an anime which didn't reduce him to a harmful stereotype. Mafuyu falls in love with other boys, and it is not depicted as something weird or, alternatively, wholly character-defining. It is an important part of his narrative, but it doesn't dominate it - he exists as a broadly dimensional character, and it meant a lot at that point in my life to see the way queerness was simply normalised in the series and through Mafuyu's character specifically.

One other thing that struck me about Mafuyu was how deeply autistic-coded he is. Along with all the traits I have listed, Mafuyu appears to struggle with social cues and his methods of interacting with other people are distinctly 'unusual'. He speaks in a quiet monotone and tends to stare people down, but at other times he averts his gaze entirely. He swings between being emotionally intense and distant, and has a tendency to be directly honest with his words. He also exhibits echolalia and as a child is shown to line-up objects and generally play alone as opposed to with his peers. Watching Mafuyu onscreen was so meaningful to me as an autistic person with trauma - it felt like nuances about myself were being conveyed to me in a way that felt realistic and encouraging, as opposed to being alienating stereotypes. When I watched given in 2019, I found this article which explores Mafuyu's autistic traits a bit further - if you're curious, I highly recommend giving it a read. I haven't read the manga yet and (as far as I am aware!) he is not canonically autistic, but I feel like it is such a palpable undercurrent to his character that (in my opinion) it is difficult to interpret him as neurotypical.

Apologies for the ramble! Mafuyu is very beloved to me and I identify with him a lot! I will also give an honourable mention to Ugetsu, who is another deeply relatable character to me from given, but I will spare everyone another ramble!

autumnal asks

[seeyouafter]

SYA Ch. 49 Extended Notes

Notes for "See You After" Chapter 49: Aug 10-15: Recent News Articles, Aizawa’s Home Visit Notes

If you follow my main account, it's not a secret that I've been frustrated with a lot of things that have happened in the canon endgame. I'm not going to go into that here, but I did add a few things to this chapter specifically because I wanted to make it very clear where this fic diverges from canon. I made a separate post with the significant points of canon-divergence that are most relevant.

Additional commentary on things in this chapter (Aizawa's home visit notes and the various news articles) below the cut:

Aizawa's texts & home visit notes

This was a nice way to include an external POV, which I thought was important because although Shouto and Katsuki are both getting better, they're definitely not "fine" as they keep insisting.

I wasn't originally going to include Izuku's conference notes, since he's not the main focus of this story. However, after the recent manga chapters, I felt the need to make it clear what happened to him in the universe of this fic, since I previously kept it more ambiguous in case I felt like following canon. This felt like a good way to do it without writing an annoyingly long author's note.

Again, not going too deep into Aizawa/Rooftop squad lore in this fic, but in my head, Shirakumo is alive (in some capacity). Midnight's death was also never properly explored, which is a shame after their interactions in Vigilantes, and I think Aizawa and Present Mic would still be coming to terms with that loss.

The izakaya that Aizawa and Mic visit is a reference to "Midnight Diner" (yes, I know they're there before midnight but shhh...) If you're into slice of life, character-driven shows that feature food, I highly recommend it.

Article Notes:

Article 1: Surge in travel expected for this year's Obon season

Not sure why, but at some point, I got stuck on the idea of what Obon would be like in the aftermath of a war. It's more of a general worldbuilding thing than something that's super important to the plot, but it is a major cultural event, and it does come up in a couple of conversations, so I decided to include an article about it.

Article 2: The failings of foreign aid groups

Yes, this is a jab at that pointless panel of the US President in ch 422 of the manga. But also, there's unfortunately a lot of similarities to the real world, in which foreign aid arrives far too late for the people who need it most. The structure of this article was based off of a real news article I read recently with a similar sentiment.

Article 3: HPSC under criticism for involvement of underage students in the war

I mean...at some point, we have to address the fact that they fought in a war despite being literal children, right? At the same time, that comment at the end of the previous article about how they sort of had to use the hero students because they were out of options, is a valid point (in fiction obviously, not in real life).

Article 4: Has Hawks flown the coop?

Puns aside, I find Hawks' canon storyline fascinating, and I think there are a lot of interesting things to explore with him in regards to hero society. That's all I'll say for now.

Other Daily Mail article titles:

More than it seams? (Untangling the threads of Best Jeanist and Edgeshot’s friendship)

10 popular theories about All Might: Were any of them true?

History’s Greatest Villain or victim of a broken system: Who is Shigaraki Tomura?

Heroes with ‘villainous’ quirks and how they use them for good

Equity or Unfair Advantage: to what extent should support items be allowed in hero training?

Mostly, these were just a way for me to point out some of the "hot topics" in the media and maybe add a little worldbuilding.

I wanted to mention something about Edgeshot, since his death is something that's still on Katsuki's mind with the impending return to Best Jeanist's agency for his work study (also, the bad fabric related puns 😅 sorry, not sorry)

The Shigaraki article is meant to be titled similarly to the one about Toga that was in Ch. 38 (I'd imagine they did some speculation pieces on each of the main villains)

The article about equity and support items ties into the idea of quirkless heroes. Given the real life arguments about equity being unfair that some people with privilege like to make, it's something that would likely come up in regards to support items, which are essentially "accommodations" for heroes.

[lacefuneral]

pretend this is a voice memo:

(cw i talk about trans death here but it isn't the main subject of my ramblings)

So. I consider myself to be a kind of amateur archivist in the way that like. A person might have taped a VHS of their favorite TV show back in the early 2000s. Like it's not something that I'm super organized about this kind of shit. But there are some things I'm trying to hang onto and hopefully you know in the future other people can have access to them too

And one of the projects that I am working on - have been working on for a while - is the project where- it's twofold because part of it is for the here and now for people to see themselves and seek solace in during a very politically charged and uncertain time. But the other purpose is for it to serve as a time capsule for this period of time and for it to be helpful for people in the future to see where we were

Anything that we have access to in the here and now, from the past, is something that was preserved in someway. I was able to read things like femme sharks and the transfag rag because someone said "this is important and I need to share this with other people".

and I was having a conversation last night with my friend. And I mentioned something offhand that I  have talked about many times in my answers to inquiries sent by gay trans men.  to the point where, to me, it is integral reading for transmascs of any kind.  And I forget that these are just articles that someone typed up on medium that I happened to stumble across,  and not say, a well-known book. And that websites like this are not permanent.

and my friend said that ze had never heard of them before. And I thought to myself OK I'll just look them up on Google and send the links over.   and because I'm an amateur archivist, I thought that I would back them up on the wayback machine while I did this. but when I went to grab them, the links were down.  The author had deleted these pieces.

 and I felt such a strong surge of loss and anxiety. Because this is why people archive things. Because things this important can just disappear out of nowhere. And while I was having a panic attack, my friend calmly checked the wayback machine to see if someone else had backed them up. and to my utter astonishment,  both of them had been.

The scary thing too is I know that services like the wayback machine are also ephemeral.  in truth,  everything is ephemeral.  Cloud services could disappear tomorrow. Someday my USB drives will be as worthless as floppy disks. Books go out of print.  And it's a scary thing to think about.

if my house suddenly caught fire, all of the trans art and artifacts that I have been slowly accumulating would be gone. 

and to be honest, I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what I should do in terms of archiving. Do I download Tumblr blogs? Do I try to rely on a service like the wayback machine that may not be there five years from now or sooner or later? Do I keep physical printed copies of websites? Do I put things on a USB drive and hope that I'll be able to transfer the files from such an obsolete an archaic technology onto something more modern which too, will someday be obsolete.

I care so much about this subject because so much of queer history has been lost to time. Partially because of  deliberate censorship, partially because in any era  ephemera is taken for  granted. I care because Leelah Alcorn's blog and Brianna Ghey's tiktoks were deleted after their deaths. And the little insight that we have of these young women and who they were are the words that they posted on social media. And that those words were preserved by other archivists. Blake Brockington i knew of before his death - he was an instrumental figure to me as a GNC trans man - and some of his posts I found were unintentionally archived by long-abandoned trans positivity blogs due to the way that this website works. every reblog is a record. and i was able to see his smiling face again, so many years later.

I hate the idea of people being names on a list. of being abstractions. trans people live rich lives. we are all multifaceted human beings. and we deserve to be known. we deserve to be remembered, to be celebrated, to be mourned.

there is a friend-of-a-friend. not someone i know personally. someone that, i assume, most likely hates me. and i was on their blog one day, out of curiosity. and i saw their meticulous archiving of a friend who had passed away. selfies and text posts. i read their loving words about her, which painted a rich picture of who this woman was. a woman that i would not know existed, were not for their efforts to keep her memory alive.

i feel that this sort of thing is important. our existence as trans people matter. regardless of notability. things like, a teenager's tiktok. like a selfie of a man post-op. a poem written by someone who will never be formally published. a clip of a trans woman singing an original song.

and i feel this sort of. pressure. and this fear also that. while i have narrowed my archival focus to transmasc people, there is so much. and i do not know where to put these things when they are archived. i do not know how i will share them. if i painstakingly export my sideblog - the thousands of photographs and videos and audios and text posts. who will view them?

and am i putting too much pressure on myself? is this anything i should worry about at all? because all life is ephemeral? i do not know.

[jjheejz]

About Internet Water Army in the case

This is an ongoing update about the case from start to development. List of all related posts can be found on this blog's pinned post (link provided at bottom of each post as well).

19 August 2021 update: Added the scale of his success for reference, before bonus below

18 August 2021 update: Added timeline of events, orange title in post, found out the official English term for Immoral Media = Internet Water Army)

Major updates since first draft: Added bonus, added disclaimer, certain info details

Originally posted on 16 August 2021

[The purpose of this post is to provide a perspective as to why the Media is raised/blamed regarding the issue. Especially for international fans, as all the encounters happened on Weibo. Also, those who were on weibo, do read through if you will. So although it's lengthy, do try to read all, at least if not the last two parts].

The Media referred by most, is not the common perception of the Entertainment Industry (celebrities, directors, shows, channels, staff etc), but the dark side of the Entertainment industry: Antis, toxic fans, toxic marketing accounts. They are called Internet Water Army💧.

Toxic Marketing Accounts is one of the things they do, these accounts on Weibo has millions of followers, each of their post likes are in the hundred thousands (buyable) to give credibility to passer-bys. Some use similar names to Official accounts, some use similar logos. Their posts are usually subjective or aims to steer view points of a certain celebrity/movie/show. Before the latest update of this post (18.08.21), I just group them all together and term them as Immoral Media*.

*Below is my original post using my original term because at point of first draft, I did not know the official term (so have changed/added the term from Immoral Media to Internet Water Army in content below but retain the content based off first draft).

If you have chased before celebrities, or just simply passed by an article about certain celebrities, recall how some title that caught your attentions were like. Clickbaits is one of the many things they do. If GZ is your first and you do not have Weibo, then this read(link) is good enough.

Just as the term Immoral Media (Internet Water Army), it’s immoral and unethical, but they exists because they are paid to do so. Who pays them? Entertainment Companies, and maybe other Organisations

Normal Media/Marketing vs Immoral Media/Toxic Marketing/Internet Water Army

When a show or movie comes out, the normal Marketing department will generate outreach and buzz so that people know a show is airing soon/know the show exists etc. Official announcements are not enough, because there isn’t much context (limited content to put up as well) so having some other Marketing accounts do the buzz in a planned period to gain awareness through posts, some articles about the casts, the plot summary, the production details etc is normal. This is Marketing, bigger companies will probably have stronger Marketing departments (aka influence) and can hire more Marketing accounts to generate buzz. Celebrities (aka casts) themselves, are also Marketing point.

Then we have the Internet Water Army/Immoral Media, these are what they mainly do:

Create Fanfiction-rumors: Creating rumors about celebrities to shift audience perception of them. [eg. XX was seen with XX leaving a hotel, XX was drunk on Event Y and did ZZZ to AA, XX is dating BB and has been in a relationship for N years etc]

Honing their brain degrading skills: Come up with titled clickbait headings/ trending topics with negative written contents. For articles, exceptionally out of heading content related to the celebrity. [Refer to Baidu, it’s a winner of these, feel free to Google Translate]

Regressing their common sense and understanding skills: Take everything a celebrity does completely out of context in a negative way and create a topic out of it [eg. XX said AA is a ---, “XX raised his finger, a sign of ---?”, XX pushed BB aggressively on Variety Show Y - A competition variety show, XX is in beef with CC because XX was caught giving CC the eye]

Using their fingers to stir shit and bathe each other in it: Escalate all smallest form of possible tension created by fans/themselves into a huge thing by acting as the fandom's fans/lurk in fandom chat groups, and voicing their disguised opinion to spread tension/exaggerate severity of the issue [eg. XX fans mocked AA - in groupchats: tbh I've never liked AA before, AA just gives off a vibe that I dont like and now this? It just disgusts me even more > Yea, i feel this way too. AA has problems / XX Lurkers expressing views on XX about NN, slowly to NNMHFXW - XX did NNMHGT - I cannot accept NNmHfHw, I'm leaving = multiply by 1000++]

Epitome of a self-deteriorate: Creating something out of nothing and react to that something negatively to gain massive attention/reaction [eg. “XX raised his hand on show Y” - dk what XX fans are thinking, are they literally blind? XX fans are tasteless just like XX hahaha / “XX did community service” - they are acting / “XX breathed” - From the start, i thought XX was NN, but I am so ZZZ that XX breathed. Goodbye fandom, i’m leaving. Those who still want to stay I urge you to rethink your life choices] - if I may add, Xiao Zhan’s fanfiction case as well. 

Metaphor - Ability to use bare hands to collect paychecks from the urinal/toilet bowl where their boss/client peed in: Doing all of the above.

Apologies for any term offense, but not apologetic of the term context. This is what they do for a living. Any normal human being who do not like anything, will generally not be interested at anything about it in the first place, so to have some antis/toxic fans knowing certain things and inside jokes/references in their posts questions their goal.

On involved in Internet Water Army/Immoral Media 💧

Fans on weibo during these few months witnessed many of the above on GZ. From rumored girlfriend (spammed with articles) to mean and nasty comments on trending topics, to bouts of insults and fake emotional cryouts by certain fan accounts that GZ's office has to release a number of Lawyer’s letter to them. 

Aside from WOH there were also a few other BL adaptation films that were actually released this year but they did not reach exponential success like WOH. BL adaptations are so highly followed by because this is the key to wealth. Literally. Successful BLs like The Untamed and  Dao Mu Bi Ji saw the amount of wealth fans are willing to spend on the celebrity as compared to say BG or idols (younger fan groups). This is why when WOH shot up exponentially, Immoral Media start to sweat.

Major anticipated adaptations were supposed to air this year eg. Hao Yi Xing(HYX), Sha Po Lang(SPL) etc but was severely held back due to the stricter change in BL adaptations submitting their scripts for approval regulations (WOH manage to submit earlier before the change). Because of this, most final films were rejected and they have to keep re-editing, by then WOH was already months into reaping tonnes of major brand endorsements, shows/movie casting, variety show appearances etc, something that is seen as too successful in the Immoral Media’s eyes, because they have to create buzz for other celebrities, some are specific celebrity oriented and thus circulate rumors about having endorsement opportunities shifted from celebrity X to GZ (think fanfiction-rumors and shit stirrer) causes tension in celebrity fandoms. - A real event just in July:

The Untamed’s cp fandom is called BJYX which had always been in the Top 1 of Cps for 2 years dropped for awhile to Top 2, over taken by LLD. Both of them had a war and hated each fandom, one fandom is somehow not allowed to like the other fandom even casually after everything broke out because it started out with some BJYX toxics photoshopped GZ on of portraits .

Also another case of which he wore the same costume as WYB did in a previous photoshoot and it became a useless comparison of who wore better, who looks better, degrading the other. (Finger stirring shit).

Now apply all of the above things the Internet Water Army do and we have them earning money, while both fandom reacts and hate each other.

In LLD, our own fans started suspecting each other on who is a spy from BJYX and what not.

The first few months of Internet Water Army saw LLDs mostly mocking them because the average age is 30-40s, they know and see through all of their intentions so nothing was big. They were trumpeting and LLDs didn’t even care, what with all the doing tedious stats was not even important to them.

Over time, as the issues they create became more and more serious LLDs did start to care, reporting Toxic Marketing accounts/toxic fans became a daily task, go vote for GZ at certain polls etc, solo fans, and LLD fans also split apart. Solo fans think cp fans use GZ to furnish their fantasies, and cp fans thinks they are the ones furnishing their dreaming-girls fantasy with (aka my boyfriend).

There was also a period where LLD had a habit of continuously mentioning “we are in the 30-40s so we can see through everything about the media, we are all fans for the first time, we are good at spending money (because of purchase power compared to other fandoms)” it was prevalent for so long it felt odd, ‘chasing celebrities the first time’ in particular sounds more vulnerable as a weakness than a strength / sth to be proud of.

Gradually, more secretive/insider confirmed ‘sweets’ were flying around. Fans advised each other to not circulate, and the mindset of “if you know, you know, dont tell.” (This is a problematic mentality, of which fans will still be curious to know and search for it themselves, but this secretive hook is unhealthy. Over the long term, it becomes hard for existing fans to know a lot of things properly to judge for themselves, especially those who knew and publicly reacted, but blasting those who ask and telling those who know to keep quiet, this did not help some to understand why on certain things, even so for international fans, dont know and dont understand, causing misunderstandings. Yes, certain information should not be shared, so why should you react about it publicly in the first place? - Internet Water Army effect)

The last few months (for example the July fan war) created a tonne of seriousness and anger. A period even broke out with a tonne of ‘insider confirmed sweets’ (which is LLD’s daily dose of happiness), it was hard to tell what was real and what was fake. Trending topics became negative and everyone warned each other not to enter because it will give the trends ‘views’ and trend statistics, in reality entering there is to enter an exhibition by the self-deteriorates, collecting the fandom's traffic data (it's a sure lose for fans each time they enter the topic). Everyone even starts thinking that the trend’s popularity was caused by each other (it's true but it can be bought daily and not caused by fans). There was a raise in the number of fans who were getting emotional because they want to protect but Internet Water Army kept coming and got worse, because fans, tbh, not just GZ fans, every other celebrity’s fans are always fighting with an Army, getting played and plotted in that Army's calendar.

Even so, despite all of these, LLD is actually a fandom Internet Water Army may find the hardest to break because they understand GZ so much, they could tell what are fake news regarding GZ, because among everything above, there are still plenty of logical fans to stop many fans from drifting too far and debunking them. Why? 30-40s are grown up adults.

Why 13.8.21 and the Japan issue is plotted?

First of all, in the political climate of China, there are many political dates in a month that is NO-Entertainment news. Because it’s the honoring of certain important political events. It’s like Remembrance Day, thus the sensitivity is higher. On these days, there are usually no news and even the Internet Water Army zip their pants. This year also marks the 100th year of the Chinese Communist Party(link)

Secondly, he had no work schedule on 13 August 2021. A great full day to focus on any other news (because if he had schedules, everyone will turn their attention to his events, what trumpeting outside is just bird chirps). 

Thirdly, when the news broke out, especially about the shrine, the reception was actually quite serious within the fandom so the scale of this might be big but to what extent in reality?

Lastly, 15.8.21 marks the 76th anniversary of the announcement of surrender of Japanese in World War 2(link). Also a day of NO-Entertainment news. 

Timeline of events:

13.8.21 - [His rest day, Eve of Chinese Valentine's Day, Japan News broke out] His rest day, no schedules = increased attention about him online. Lowered guard among fans because they are getting ready for tomorrow's Chinese Valentine's sweets = Caught off guard = Huge break out of fans' reactions

14.8.21 - [Chinese Valentine's Day, Eve of the 75th Anniversary of the announcement of Japanese surrender] Keep a wishful and happy demenaor to not destroy the mood, suppressed thoughts about ZZH's Japan news

15.8.21 - [75th Anniversary of the announcement of Japanese surrender, Official announcement of ZZH's boycott and all China social media account ban] NO-Entertainment news day, Solemn day, not allowed to voice anything so the fandom can only wait for tomorrow to start voicing out/debunking but before they can wait out, the boycott and social media ban happened, every official accounts about him was gone overnight, fans had no time to react

17.8.21 - [All official fandom accounts related to ZZH and JunZhe were locked/removed]

Forced to be silent since the day his matter broke out, over the course of official news release with everything taken down in a day because of the Japan correspondence, his accounts banned overnight across the Chinese media and the overnight cancellation, fans could not speak anything about it. Overnight cancellation like this scale happened for the first time in China, leaving no time to react by the fandom, by the time they can, they are silenced.

When the period of events occured within a set of special dates, it’s not coincidence.

Conclusion

Because he was too successful and had many actually honorable past things, and a hard to influence fandom, Internet Water Army view him as a huge threat enough to want to destroy him, because it’s hard to defeat. With a chance they have, they will hold it till the end, bringing up this issue to the Government during this period also shows a sign of how scared they were of him and perhaps his fandom to plot something like this.

Updated on 19 August: Here's a screenshot of assumed calculation on the scale of GZ success for reference while chatting with a fellow fan, assuming GJ also has 27 brands, and there are 1000 brands. Rationale of numbers used: Only big brands can hire big celebrities.

Bonus

Mentioned in the first post, will mention again in case. After the news broke out within 2 days, there was a drop on his weibo followers from 18.9mil to 18.7mil. 200k+ drops, if the politics was such a big national issue, there should at least be a huge drop, even at least a million right? Because weibo is a China-Chinese majority right? Nope, we get a puny 200k drop.

What's funny? The self-deteroriates:

Translation: "Are his fans bought? Why didnt he drop fans? Those people got brainwashed to this point?" / "I've never entered his weibo and today i feel like having a look yet it showed I've followed him. All his fans were bought right? It disgusts me, i immediately unfollowed. This kind of process is worse than WYF..." / "i dropped fans because of him...no...I just reposted 2 posts and I've dropped 4 fans?"

Isn't the tone and regressing brain cells, all too familiar and same?

//

Added above, will remind again to read this link. It has an even more in-depth knowledge on who are paying them.

So what should we do? Link here

Related posts 🛏️:

[allhallowstiel]

so, i’m gonna try to provide an explanation as to why people are upset about will rn, because there seems to be some misinterpretation going on. if you read through what i have to say and you still don’t agree, cool. i just think it’s understandable why people are hurt and wanted to explain that a bit more.

(explanation under the cut bc this post is long):

first and foremost, we know that the show itself did not queerbait with byler. although the show heavily implied that will had feelings for mike, they never strongly suggested that mike felt the same. most of the “evidence” that byler had was mostly just theories put together based on crumbs- and i say this as a byler shipper.

the reason people are saying they were queerbaited is mostly because of netflixgeeked.

egging fans on on twitter:

using the byler tag on their tiktoks:

being unhinged on instagram:

“but netflixgeeked is just a glorified fan account” true! but they have that checkmark and they’re affiliated with netflix

but rest assured, the official netflix accounts also got in on the action!

(i borrowed some of these screenshots from hypnct1c2.0 on tiktok)

for those of you who witnessed the voltron mess, you might notice that this all seems rather familiar. netflix has a bit of a history of baiting fans.

now there’s a bit of a debate on whether noah is also to blame considering what he’s said about byler- and while for the most part i think actors are just people who read a script, i do think it was kind of odd that he would tell people to ship byler knowing that it only ends in heartbreak for will. i also don’t know why he would say that they’re building up byler when the only thing volume 2 did was break it down. i’d like to think it was just poor wording on his part- he’s a kid and probably doesn’t even know what queerbaiting really is, but i do wish he had chosen his words better because i think they gave a lot of people hope.

THAT is where the queerbaiting accusations are coming from. people are for the most part pissed off at netflix.

will’s sexuality

people are also upset because they didn’t feel that will’s sexuality was addressed properly. i think the van scene was clear as day to people who can read subtext, but the fact that i still see people insisting that will has been acting weird because he’s secretly in love with eleven and upset that mike is with her is... frustrating. at this point, the general audience should get it, and they don’t. 

i mean, look at this screenshot i took from an article today talking about unanswered questions in volume 2.

“it’s unclear”. we have people who are writing about stranger things and covering it in their articles that were left feeling like it wasn’t clear. personally im flabbergasted since, again- that van scene was incredibly loud to me, but then i remember that not everyone automatically reads into byler shit. like i mentioned before- there are people who still think will is in love with el, even after david harbour shot that idea down.

but the general audience doesn’t typically watch or read interviews, or read into things with a byler lens. but- aside from a few idiots that desperately want to ship robin with steve for some reason- most people in the ga do know and understand that robin is a lesbian. she never explicitly said the word lesbian, she didn’t get up and wave a pride flag around- but we all got it. for some reason, the message that will is gay isn’t getting to people. we still have people insisting that he’s in love with el, or that he just “doesn’t wanna grow up”.

now it’s important to note here that will isn’t any less valid just because he’s not out, but there is more than one way to indicate that a character is gay. no one is asking for will to start waving a pride flag around in indiana in the 80′s. but i think that this is the main reason people wanted will to get vecna’d- we would likely see vecna taunting will over his feelings for mike, which would confirm his sexuality without having him come out to anyone. i think what fans wanted was more of something along those lines- no one wants will to put his safety at risk and no one thinks will is any less valid for not being out. the anger all comes out of love for the character- it’s just that sometimes that anger ends up being misdirected because people don’t know who to be angry at. 

there are some fans that feel represented by will, since having a crush on your straight best friend is a relatable and common experience for closeted kids. there are others who are frustrated with the ambiguity. both of these feelings are valid and i believe they can coexist.

what i think is going on with this is that the duffers assumed the van scene and that hug with jonathan would be enough to clue the general audience in. it wasn’t, and now will fans are frustrated at having to defend will being gay for another two or three years while we wait for season 5.

but i will say that anyone saying “we got the van scene, what more do you want” needs to just Not, because despite how loud that scene was, his struggle with his sexuality is far from over, and there are some things that i think season 5 needs to deliver on. it just fucking sucks that it turns out we have to wait again- and we have to hope that what we get is worth the wait.

the painting

now this is the biggest thing that most people are angry about. people are angry that will’s feelings for mike were essentially used to push mike and el back together. 

yes, will made the choice to lie about the painting. but i honestly don’t think mike would’ve put it together even if will hadn’t lied. he clearly doesn’t remember the letter, because if he did, he would’ve seen through will’s lie right away. if he can’t remember what el said in the letter, then i don’t think he would read into the painting if im being honest.

but even putting the painting aside- which is beyond frustrating since it was hyped up as this important thing between mike and will, not mike and el- all of mike and will’s scenes this season were just them talking about el. will spent the entire season trying to fix mike and el’s relationship despite how much it’s absolutely breaking him- and he doesn’t get jack fucking shit for it. no closure, no self-acceptance, no character growth- just angst for the sake of angst. 

and the worst part is that he’s always going to be exposed to their relationship because el is now his sister. he’s trapped. he’s always going to see them together and wish it could be him in el’s place. it feels like they’ve made him miserable and they’re never gonna let him move on. 

queer characters should never be used to strengthen or push a straight relationship. mike did not need to be involved in will’s coming out storyline. that’s why i feel like they only did it for the drama. will could’ve easily started having feelings for a guy at his new school. but honestly, at the rate they’re going, i feel like the most we’ll get is a five second shot in the last episode of him and his boyfriend.

it’s disgusting that will’s feelings were used for mlvn. his feelings were not treated with any sort of respect or decency. we deserved at least one fucking scene of them this season that wasn’t will pushing mike to be with el.

-

so, yeah. hopefully this post gives you some insight on the real reasons people are upset, because a lot of things are being wildly misinterpreted rn and i wanted to set the record straight.

[andmaybegayer]

Last Monday of the Week 2022-10-31

Last Monday Of The Month, a week with a peculiarly high concentration of media so it's a long one:

Listening: Went to a live show on Friday, here's a pull song from each set:

Superloser, with Neon City Dream, the opening act

The Painted Flowers, who were dressed as tennis players because this was ostensibly a Halloween deal, with River Song

The Tazers, probably the most well known band at the show, who have a new album out but I'm going to take an older song, A Bomb & A Bill

and lastly, Ruff Majik, who when told they only had time left for one song did a song that was like ten minutes long. This is not that song.

Watching: Went to a performance of "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf" for the first time, I've read *about* the play but never actually read it, because I basically only read plays if I can strut around my room acting out the parts because what's the goddamn point otherwise.

I am a huge fan of devastating tragedy so I of course found this incredible. Great portrayals from everyone, especially Honey and Nick who were extremely good at carrying on their responses in the background.

My brother came along and he has an extremely unfortunate taste in media so he did not have the best time.

Reading: Dispatches From The Rap Wars was a fascinating article about the intersection of rap music and gangs in modern cities, which is of course a fascinating pile of hyperlocal culture.

Playing: Butterfly Soup 2 is out, and I have done nothing but think about Butterfly Soup 2 for two days. I've got like four half-written drafts about different parts of this game. It was very emotionally affecting because it is a lot to see words that could have been taken directly from your brain or from whiny forum posts you made when you were 14 written by someone else. Validation, of a kind.

Representation is not a terminal good but it is a kind of good and it can be extremely important in how you respond to a piece of media. Butterfly Soup 1 already has a certain level of care and knowledge that (if you are in the target audience) tells you that the author on the other side of the words has an understanding of you and how you grew up and live and how that affects you to this day.

BS2 is a lot blunter, and while there is plenty of gay stuff, I know I'm gay, that was easy, it was not the affecting part, I solved the question of Being Gay when I was 14; demonstrating an intimate understanding of the kind of complex family relationships you develop when you grow up with very little contact with your extended family or even family friends has, on the other hand, kept me awake for literal hours last night.

Man was that paragraph one sentence. You can tell I have it bad here.

The Asian Diaspora part is. Okay I don't know how essential it is because I'm already aligned with it, but you could probably find a few kernels of concept to relate to even if you are not. I mentioned that at times it can feel like I'm getting hit with Barnum Phrases because so much of this feels like the universal experience of growing up, but I know other humans and I know that their relationships to their cultures and parents are wildly different along a ton of different axes that are not expressed here. I don't know. Play it if you want that or if you want a twee ass gay story about some lesbian teens.

Fundamentally similar to a lot of aspirational queer media which must imagine a less hostile, less risky world where you can say the things that the reader has only thought, and do the things the reader has only dreamed.

I have thoughts on why the racism and gender segment felt a little off but that's a post that's half written so maybe you'll see that eventually. That's more of a fun historical piece.

I also played Inscryption but I'm still playing that so I'll reserve it for next week. Still haven't beaten the cabin but I got close last time.

Making: Participating in extending the arm of western hegemony, by which I mean the neighbourhood parents organized a pseudo-halloween thing and I got dragged into it. Did a jack-o-lantern out of a blue food pumpkin for their thing yesterday, today we cut that up and I made soup and fritters out of it. So at least I didn't waste a pumpkin.

Tools and Equipment: Alcohol, specifically for cleaning. I keep a bottle or two of isopropanol or ethanol around my desk and it always comes in handy. 90-ish percent alcohol is fantastic for non-polar dirt, and has just enough water left to handle polar dirt too. Just this past week I've used that for everything from cleaning small wounds to dissolving ink to getting goo off my knife.

[potteresque-ire]

Can you talk more about the usage of the word "wife" to talk about men in the BL context? I've noticed it in BJYX (particularly with GG), in the (English translations) of MDZS, and then it came up in your recent posts about Danmei-101 (which were super helpful btw) with articles connecting the "little fresh meat" type to fans calling an actor "wife." My initial reaction as a westerner is like "this is very problematic," but I think I'm missing a lot of language/cultural context. Any thoughts?

Hello! First of all, for those who’re interested, here’s a link to the referred posts. Under the cut is arguably the 4th post of the series. As usual, I apologise for the length!

(Topics: seme and uke; more about “leftover women”; roster of feminisation terms; Daji, Bao Si & the origin of BJYX; roster of beautiful, ancient Chinese men; Chairman Mao (not part of the roster) ...)

[TW: feminisation of men]

In the traditional BL characterisation, the M/M (double male) lead pairing is essentially a cis-het relationship in disguise, in which one of the M leads is viewed as the “wife” by the creator and audience. This lead often possesses some of the features of the traditional, stereotypical female, but retaining his male appearance. 

In BL terms, the “wife” is the “uke”. “Seme” and “uke” are the respective roles taken by the two male leads, and designated by the creator of the material. Literally, “seme” (攻め) means the dominant, the attacking / aggressive partner in the relationship and “uke” (受け), the passive / recipient (of actions) partner who tends to follow the seme’s lead. The terms themselves do not have any sexual / gender context.  However, as male and female are viewed as aggressive and passive by their traditional social roles, and the attacker and recipient by their traditional sexual roles respectively, BL fandoms have long assigned uke, the passive, sexual “bottom”, as the “woman”, the “wife”. 

Danmei has kept this “semi” and uke” tradition from BL, taking the kanji of the Japanese terms for designation ~ 攻 (”attack” is therefore the “husband”, and 受 (”receive”), the “wife”. The designations are often specified in the introduction / summary of Danmei works as warning / enticement. For MDZS, for example, MXTX wrote:

高貴冷豔悶騷 攻 × 邪魅狂狷風騷 受

高貴冷豔悶騷 攻 = noble, coolly beautiful and boring seme (referring to LWJ)  邪魅狂狷風騷 受 = devilishly charming, wild, and flirty uke (referring to WWX) 

The traditional, stereotypical female traits given to the “uke”, the “wife” in Danmei and their associated fanworks range from their personality to behaviour to even biological functions. Those who have read the sex scenes in MDZS may be aware of their lack of mention of lube, while WWX was written as getting (very) wet from fluids from his colon (腸道) ~ implying that his colon, much like a vagina, was supplying the necessarily lubrication for sex. This is obviously biologically inaccurate; however, Danmei is exempt from having to be realistic by its original Tanbi definition. The genre’s primary audience is cishet females, and sex scenes such as this one aren’t aiming for realism. Rather, the primary goal of these sex scenes is to generate fantasy, and the purpose of the biologically female functions in one of the leads (WWX) is to ease the readers into imagining themselves as the one engaging in the sex.

Indeed, these practices of assigning as males and female the M/M sexual top and bottom, of emphasising of who is the top and who is the bottom, have been falling out of favour in Western slash fandoms ~ I joined fandom about 15 years ago, and top and bottom designations in slash pairings (and fights about them) were much more common than it is now.  The generally more open, more progressive environments in which Western fandomers are immersed in probably have something to do with it: they transfer their RL knowledge, their views on biology, on different social into their fandom works and discourses. 

I’d venture to say this: in the English-speaking fandoms, fandom values and mainstream values are converging. “Cancel culture” reflects an attempt to enforce RL values in the fictional worlds in fandom. Fandom culture is slowly, but surely, leaving its subculture status and becoming part of mainstream culture. 

I’d hesitate to call c-Danmei fandoms backward compared to Western slash for this reason. There’s little hope for Danmei to converge with China’s mainstream culture in the short term ~ the necessity of replacing Danmei with Dangai in visual media already reflects that. Danmei is and will likely remain subculture in the foreseeable future, and subcultures, at heart, are protests against the mainstream. Unless China and the West define “mainstream” very similarly (and they don’t), it is difficult to compare the “progressiveness”—and its dark side, the “problematic-ness”—of the protests, which are shaped by what they’re protesting against. The “shaper” in this scenario, the mainstream values and culture, are also far more forceful under China’s authoritarian government than they are in the free(-er) world. 

Danmei, therefore, necessarily takes on a different form in China than BL or slash outside China. As a creative pursuit, it serves to fulfil psychological needs that are reflective of its surrounding culture and sociopolitical environment. The genre’s “problematic” / out of place aspects in the eyes of Western fandoms are therefore, like all other aspects of the genre, tailor-made by its millions of fans to be comforting / cathartic for the unique culture and sociopolitical background it and they find themselves in. 

I briefly detoured to talk about the Chinese government’s campaign to pressure young, educated Chinese women into matrimony and motherhood in the post for this reason, as it is an example of how, despite Western fandoms’ progressiveness, they may be inadequate, distant for c-Danmei fans. Again, this article is a short and a ... morbidly-entertaining read on what has been said about China’s “leftover women” (剩女) — women who are unmarried and over 27-years-old). I talked about it, because “Women should enter marriage and parenthood in their late 20s” may no longer a mainstream value in many Western societies, but where it still is, it exerts a strong influence on how women view romance, and by extension, how they interact with romantic fiction, including Danmei.

In China, this influence is made even stronger by the fact that Chinese tradition  places a strong emphasis on education and holds a conservative attitude towards romance and sex. Dating while studying therefore remains discouraged in many Chinese families. University-educated Chinese women therefore have an extremely short time frame — between graduation (~23 years old) and their 27th birthday — to find “the right one” and get married, before they are labelled as “leftovers” and deemed undesirable. (Saving) face being an important aspect in Chinese culture introduces yet another layer of pressure: traditionally, women who don’t get married by the age agreed by social norms have been viewed as failures of upbringing, in that the unmarried women’s parents not having taught/trained their daughters well. Filial, unmarried women therefore try to get married “on time” just to avoid bringing shame to their family.

The outcome is this: despite the strong women characters we may see in Chinese visual media, many young Chinese women nowadays do not expect themselves to be able to marry for love. Below, I offer a “book jacket summary” of a popular internet novel in China, which shows how the associated despair also affects cis-het fictional romance. Book reviews praise this novel for being “boring”: the man and woman leads are both common working class people, the “you-and-I”’s; the mundaneness of them trying build their careers and their love life is lit by one shining light: he loves her and she loves him. 

Written in her POV, this summary reflects, perhaps, the disquiet felt by many contemporary Chinese women university graduates:

曾經以為，自己這輩子都等不到了—— 世界這麼大，我又走得這麼慢，要是遇不到良人要怎麼辦？早過了「全球三十幾億男人，中國七億男人，天涯何處無芳草」的猖狂歲月，越來越清楚，循規蹈矩的生活中，我們能熟悉進而深交的異性實在太有限了，有限到我都做好了「接受他人的牽線，找個適合的男人慢慢煨熟，再平淡無奇地進入婚姻」的準備，卻在生命意外的拐彎處迎來自己的另一半。

I once thought, my wait will never come to fruition for the rest of my life — the world is so big, I’m so slow in treading it, what if I’ll never meet the one? I’ve long passed the wild days of thinking “3 billion men exist on Earth, 0.7 of which are Chinese. There is plenty more fish in the sea.” I’m seeing, with increasing clarity, that in our disciplined lives, the number of opposite-sex we can get to know, and get to know well, is so limited. It’s so limited that I’m prepared to accept someone’s matchmaking, find a suitable man and slowly, slowly, warm up to him, and then, to enter marriage with without excitement, without wonder. But then, an accidental turn in my life welcomes in my other half.

— Oath of Love (餘生，請多指教) (Yes, this is the novel Gg’d upcoming drama is based on.) 

Heteronormativity is, of course, very real in China. However, that hasn’t exempted Chinese women, even its large cis-het population, from having their freedom to pursue their true love taken away from them. Even for cis-het relationships, being able to marry for love has become a fantasy —a fantasy scorned by the state. Remember this quote from Article O3 in the original post? 

耽改故事大多远离现实，有些年轻受众却将其与生活混为一谈，产生不以结婚和繁衍为目的才是真爱之类的偏颇认知。

Most Dangai stories are far removed from reality; some young audience nonetheless mix them up with real life, develop biased understanding such as “only love that doesn’t treat matrimony and reproduction as destinations is true love”. 

I didn’t focus on it in the previous posts, in an effort to keep the discussion on topic. But why did the op-ed piece pick this as an example of fantasy-that-shouldn’t-be-mixed-up-with-real-life, in the middle of a discussion about perceived femininity of men that actually has little to do with matrimony and reproduction? 

Because the whole point behind the state’s “leftover women” campaign is precisely to get women to treat matrimony and reproduction as destinations, not beautiful sceneries that happen along the way. And they’re the state’s destination as more children = higher birth rate that leads to higher future productivity. The article is therefore calling out Danmei for challenging this “mainstream value”.

Therefore, while the statement True love doesn’t treat matrimony and reproduction as destinations may be trite for many of us while it may be a point few, if any, English-speaking fandoms may pay attention to, to the mainstream culture Danmei lives in, to the mainstream values dictated by the state, it is borderline subversive.

As much as Danmei may appear “tame” for its emphasis on beauty and romance, for it to have stood for so long, so firmly against China’s (very) forceful mainstream culture, the genre is also fundamentally rebellious.  Remember: Danmei has little hope of converging with China’s mainstream unless it “sells its soul” and removes its homoerotic elements. 

With rebelliousness, too, comes a bit of tongue-in-cheek.

And so, when c-Danmei fans, most of whom being cishet women who interact with the genre by its traditional BL definition, call one of the leads 老婆 (wife), it can and often take on a different flavour. As said before, it can be less about feminizing the lead than about identifying with the lead. The nickname 老婆 (wife) can be less about being disrespectful and more about humorously expressing an aspiration—the aspiration to have a husband who truly loves them, who they do want to get married and have babies with but out of freedom and not obligation.

Admittedly, I had been confused, and bothered by these “can-be”s myself. Just because there are alternate reasons for the feminisation to happen doesn’t mean the feminisation itself is excusable. But why the feminisation of M/M leads doesn’t sound as awful to me in Chinese as in English? How can calling a self-identified man 老婆 (wife) get away with not sounding being predominantly disrespectful to my ears, when I would’ve frowned at the same thing said in my vicinity in English?

I had an old hypothesis: when I was little, it was common to hear people calling acquaintances in Chinese by their unflattering traits:  “Deaf-Eared Chan” (Mr Chan, who’s deaf), “Fat Old Woman Lan” (Ah-Lan, who’s an overweight woman) etc—and the acquaintances were perfectly at ease with such identifications, even introducing themselves to strangers that way. Comparatively speaking then, 老婆 (wife) is harmless, even endearing. 

老婆, which literally means “old old-lady” (implying wife = the woman one gets old with), first became popularised as a colloquial, casual way of calling “wife” in Hong Kong and its Cantonese dialect, despite the term itself being about 1,500 years old. As older generations of Chinese were usually very shy about talking about their love lives, those who couldn’t help themselves and regularly spoke of their 老婆 tended to be those who loved their wives in my memory. 老婆, as a term, probably became endearing to me that way. 

Maybe this is why the feminisation of M/M leads didn’t sound so bad to me?

This hypothesis was inadequate, however. This custom of identifying people by their (unflattering) traits has been diminishing in Hong Kong and China, for similar reasons it has been considered inappropriate in the West.

Also, 老婆 (wife) is not the only term used for / associated with feminisation. I’ve tried to limit the discussion to Danmei, the fictional genre; now, I’ll jump to its associated RPS genre, and specifically, the YiZhan fandoms. The purpose of this jump: with real people involved, feminisation’s effect is potentially more harmful, more acute. Easier to feel. 

YiZhan fans predominantly entered the fandoms through The Untamed, and they’ve also transferred Danmei’s  “seme”/“uke” customs into YiZhan. There are, therefore, three c-YiZhan fandoms:

博君一肖 (BJYX): seme Dd, uke Gg 戰山為王 (ZSWW): seme Gg, uke Dd 連瑣反應 (LSFY): riba Gg and Dd. Riba = “reversible”, and unlike “seme” and “uke”, is a frequently-used term in the Japanese gay community. 

BJYX is by far the largest of the three, likely due to Gg having played WWX, the “uke” in MDZS / TU. I’ll therefore focus on this fandom, ie. Gg is the “uke”, the “wife”.

For Gg alone, I’ve seen him being also referred to by YiZhan fans as (and this is far from a complete list):

* 姐姐 (sister) * 嫂子 (wife of elder brother; Dd being the elder brother implied) * 妃妃 (based on the very first YiZhan CP name, 太妃糖 Toffee Candy, a portmanteau of sorts from Dd being the 太子 “prince” of his management company and Gg being the prince’s wife, 太子妃. 糖 = “candy”. 太妃 sounds like toffee in English and has been used as the latter’s Chinese translation.) * 美人 (beauty, as in 肖美人 “Beauty Xiao”) * Daji 妲己 (as in 肖妲己, “Daji Xiao”). 

The last one needs historical context, which will also become important for explaining the new hypothesis I have.

Daji was a consort who lived three thousand years ago, whose beauty was blamed for the fall of the Shang dynasty. Gg (and men sharing similar traits, who are exceptionally rare) has been compared to Daji 妲己 for his alternatively innocent, alternatively seductive beauty ~ the kind of beauty that, in Chinese historical texts and folk lores, lead to the fall of kingdoms when possessed by the king’s beloved woman. This kind of “I-get-to-ruin-her-virginity”, “she’s a slut in MY bedroom” beauty is, of course, a stereotypical fantasy for many (cis-het) men, which included the authors of these historical texts and folklores. However, it also contained some truth: the purity / innocence, the image of a virgin, was required for an ancient woman to be chosen as a consort; the seduction, meanwhile, helped her to become the top consort, and monopolise the attention of kings and emperors who often had hundreds of wives ~ wives who often put each other in danger to eliminate competition. 

Nowadays, women of tremendous beauty are still referred to by the Chinese idiom 傾國傾城, literally, ”falling countries, falling cities”. The beauty is also implied to be natural, expressed in a can’t-help-itself way, perhaps reflecting the fact that the ancient beauties on which this idiom has been used couldn’t possibly have plastic surgeries, and most of them didn’t meet a good end ~ that they had to pay a price for their beauty, and often, with their lowly status as women, as consorts, they didn’t get to choose whether they wanted to pay this price or not. This adjective is considered to be very flattering. Gg’s famous smile from the Thailand Fanmeet has been described, praised as 傾城一笑: “a smile that topples a city”.

I’m explaining Daji and 傾國傾城 because the Chinese idiom 博君一笑 “doing anything to get a smile from you”, from which the ship’s name BJYX 博君一肖  was derived (笑 and 肖 are both pronounced “xiao”), is connected to yet another of such dynasty-falling beauty, Bao Si 褒姒. Like Daji before her, Bao Si was blamed for the end of the Zhou Dynasty in 771 BC. 

The legend went like this: Bao Si was melancholic, and to get her to smile, her king lit warning beacons and got his nobles to rush in from the nearby vassal states with their armies to come and rescue him, despite not being in actual danger. The nobles, in their haste, looked so frantic and dishevelled that Bao Si found it funny and smiled. Longing to see more of the smile of his favourite woman, the king would fool his nobles again and again, until his nobles no longer heeded the warning beacons when an actual rebellion came. 

What the king did has been described as 博紅顏一笑, with 紅顏 (”red/flushed face”) meaning a beautiful woman, referring to Bao Si. Replace 紅顏 with the respectful “you”, 君, we get 博君一笑. If one searches the origin of the phrase 博 [fill_in_the_blank]一笑 online, Bao Si’s story shows up.

The “anything” in ”doing anything to get a smile from you” in 博君一笑, therefore, is not any favour, but something as momentous as giving away one’s own kingdom. c-turtles have remarked, to their amusement and admittedly mine, that “king”, in Chinese, is written as 王, which is Dd’s surname, and very occasionally, they jokingly compare him to the hopeless kings who’d give away everything for their love. Much like 傾國傾城 has become a flattering idiom despite the negative reputations of Daji and Bao Si for their “men-ruining ways”, 博君一笑 has become a flattering phrase, emphasising on the devotion and love rather than the ... stupidity behind the smile-inducing acts. 

(Bao Si’s story, BTW, was a lie made up by historians who also lived later but also thousands of years ago, to absolve the uselessness of the king. Warning beacons didn’t exist at her time.)  

Gg is arguably feminized even in his CP’s name. Gg’s feminisation is everywhere. 

And here comes my confession time ~ I’ve been amused by most of the feminisation terms above. 肖妲己 (”Daji Xiao”) captures my imagination, and I remain quite partial to the CP name BJYX. Somehow, there’s something ... somewhat forgivable when the feminisation is based on Gg’s beauty, especially in the context of the historical Danmei / Dangai setting of MDZS/TU ~ something that, while doesn’t cancel, dampens the “problematic-ness” of the gender mis-identification.

What, exactly, is this something?

Here’s my new hypothesis, and hopefully I’ll manage to explain it well ~

The hypothesis is this: the unisex beauty standard for historical Chinese men and women, which is also breathtakingly similar to the modern beauty standard for Chinese women, makes feminisation in the context of Danmei (especially historical Danmei) flattering, and easier to accept.

What defined beauty in historical Chinese men? If I am to create a classically beautiful Chinese man for my new historical Danmei, how would I describe him based on what I’ve read, my cultural knowledge?

Here’s a list:

* Skin fair and smooth as white jade * Thin, even frail; narrow/slanted shoulders; tall * Dark irises and bright, starry eyes * Not too dense, neat eyebrows that are shaped like swords ~ pointed slightly upwards from the center towards the sides of the face * Depending on the dynasty, nice makeup.

Imagine these traits. How “macho” are they? How much do they fit the ideal Chinese masculine beauty advertised by Chinese government, which looks like below?

Propaganda poster, 1969. The caption says “Defeat Imperialist US! Defeat Social Imperialism!” The book’s name is “Quotations from Mao Zedong”. (Source)

Where did that list of traits I’ve written com from? Fair like jade, frail ... why are they so far from the ... “macho”ness of the men in the poster? 

What has Chinese history said about its beautiful men? 

Wei Jie (衛玠 286-312 BCE), one of the four most beautiful ancient Chinese men (古代四大美男) recorded in Chinese history famously passed away when fans of his beauty gathered and formed a wall around him, blocking his way. History recorded Wei as being frail with chronic illness, and was only 27 years old when he died. Arguably the first historical account of “crazy fans killing their idol”, this incident left the idiom 看殺衛玠 ~ “Wei Jie being watched to death.” ~ a not very “macho” way to die at all.

潘安 (Pan An; 247-300 BCE), another one of the four most beautiful ancient Chinese men, also had hoards of fangirls, who threw fruits and flowers at him whenever he ventured outside. The Chinese idiom 擲果盈車 “thrown fruit filling a cart” was based on Pan and ... his fandom, and denotes such scenarios of men being so beautiful that women openly displayed their affections for them. 

Meanwhile, when Pan went out with his equally beautiful male friend, 夏侯湛 Xiahou Zhan, folks around them called them 連璧 ~ two connected pieces of perfect jade. Chinese Jade is white, smooth, faintly glowing in light, so delicate that it gives the impression of being somewhat transparent.

Aren’t Wei Jie and Pan An reminiscent of modern day Chinese idols, the “effeminate” “Little Fresh Meat”s (小鲜肉) so panned by Article O3? Their stories, BTW, also elucidated the historical reference in LWJ’s description of being jade-like in MDZS, and in WWX and LWJ being thrown pippas along the Gusu river bank. 

Danmei, therefore, didn’t create a trend of androgynous beauty in men as much as it has borrowed the ancient, traditional definition of masculine Chinese beauty ~ the beauty that was more feminine than masculine by modern standards.  

[Perhaps, CPs should be renamed 連璧 (”two connected pieces of perfect jade”) as a reminder of the aesthetics’ historical roots.]

Someone may exclaim now: But. But!! Yet another one of the four most beautiful ancient Chinese men, 高長恭 (Gao Changgong, 541-573 BCE), far better known by his title, 蘭陵王 (”the Prince of Lanling”), was a famous general. He had to be “macho”, right?

... As it turns out, not at all. Historical texts have described Gao as “貌柔心壮，音容兼美” (”soft in looks and strong at heart, beautiful face and voice”), “白美類婦人” (”fair and beautiful as a woman”), “貌若婦人” (”face like a woman”). Legends have it that The Prince of Lanling’s beauty was so soft, so lacking in authority that he had to wear a savage mask to get his soldiers to listen to his command (and win) on the battlefield (《樂府雜錄》: 以其顏貌無威，每入陣即著面具，後乃百戰百勝).

This should be emphasised: Gao’s explicitly feminine descriptions were recorded in historical texts as arguments *for* his beauty. Authors of these texts, therefore, didn’t view the feminisation as insult. In fact, they used the feminisation to drive the point home, to convince their readers that men like the Prince of Lanling were truly, absolutely good looking.

Being beautiful like a women was therefore high praise for men in, at least, significant periods in Chinese history ~ periods long and important enough for these records to survive until today. Beauty, and so it goes, had once been largely free of distinctions between the masculine and feminine.

One more example of an image of an ancient Chinese male beauty being similar to its female counterpart, because the history nerd in me finds this fun. 

何晏 (He Yan, ?-249 BCE) lived in the Wei Jin era (between 2nd to 4th century), during which makeup was really en vogue. Known for his beauty, he was also famous for his love of grooming himself. The emperor, convinced that He Yan’s very fair skin was from the powder he was wearing, gave He Yan some very hot foods to eat in the middle of the summer. He Yan began to sweat, had to wipe himself with his sleeves and in the process, revealed to the emperor that his fair beauty was 100% natural ~ his skin glowed even more with the cosmetics removed (《世說新語·容止第十四》: 何平叔美姿儀，面至白。魏明帝疑其傅粉，正夏月，與熱湯餅。既啖，大汗出，以朱衣自拭，色轉皎然). His kick-cosmetics’-ass fairness won him the nickname 傅粉何郎 (”powder-wearing Mr He”).

Not only would He Yan very likely be mistaken as a woman if this scene is transferred to a modern setting, but this scene can very well fit inside a Danmei story of the 21st century and is very, very likely to get axed by the Chinese censorship board for its visualisation. 

[Important observation from this anecdote: the emperor was totally into this trend too.]

The adjectives and phrases used above to describe these beautiful ancient Chinese men ~ 貌柔, 音容兼美, 白美, 美姿儀, 皎然 ~ have all become pretty much reserved for describing beauty in women nowadays. Beauty standards in ancient China were, as mentioned before, had gone through significantly long periods in which they were largely genderless. The character for beauty 美 (also in Danmei, 耽美) used to have little to no gender association. Free of gender associations as well were the names of many flowers. The characters for orchid (蘭) and lotus (蓮), for example, were commonly found in men’s names as late as the Republican era (early 20th century), but are now almost exclusively found in women’s names. Both orchid and lotus have historically been used to indicate 君子 (junzi, roughly, “gentlemen”), which have always been men. MDZS also has an example of a man named after a flower: Jin Ling’s courtesy name, given to him by WWX,  was 如蘭 (”like an orchid”). 

A related question may be this: why does ancient China associate beauty with fairness, with softness, with frailty? Likely, because Confucianist philosophy and customs put a heavy emphasis on scholarship ~ and scholars have mostly consisted of soft-spoken, not muscular, not working-under-the-sun type of men. More importantly, Confucianist scholars also occupied powerful government positions. Being, and looking like a Confucianist scholar was therefore associated with status. Indeed, it’s very difficult to look like jade when one was a farmer or a soldier, for example, who constantly had to toil under the sun, whose skin was constantly being dried and roughened by the elements. Having what are viewed as “macho” beauty traits as in the poster above ~ tanned skin, bulging muscles, bony structures (which also take away the jade’s smoothness) ~ were associated with hard labour, poverty and famine.

Along that line, 手無縛雞之力 (“hands without the strength to restrain a chicken”) has long been a phrase used to describe ancient scholars and students, and without scorn or derision. Love stories of old, which often centred around scholars were, accordingly, largely devoid of the plot lines of husbands physically protecting the wives, performing the equivalent of climbing up castle walls and fighting dragons etc. Instead, the faithful husbands wrote poems, combed their wife’s hair, traced their wife’s eyebrows with cosmetics (畫眉)...all activities that didn’t require much physical strength, and many of which are considered “feminine” nowadays.

Were there periods in Chinese history in which more ... sporty men and women were appreciated? Yes. the Tang dynasty, for example, and the Yuan and Qing dynasties. The Tang dynasty, as a very powerful, very open era in Chinese history, was known for its relations to the West (via the Silk Road). The Yuan and Qing dynasties, meanwhile, were established by Mongolians and Manchus respectively, who, as non-Han people, had not been under the influence of Confucian culture and grew up on horsebacks, rather than in schools.

The idea that beautiful Chinese men should have “macho” attributes was, therefore, largely a consequence of non-Han-Chinese influence, especially after early 20th century. That was when the characters for beauty (美), orchid (蘭), lotus (蓮) etc began their ... feminisation. The Chinese Communist Party (CCP), which started its reign of the country starting 1949, also has foreign roots, being a derivative of the Soviets, and its portrayal of ideal men has been based on the party’s ideology, painting them as members of the People’s Liberation Army (Chinese army) and its two major proletariat classes, farmers and industrial workers ~ all occupations that are “macho” in their aesthetics, but held at very poor esteem in ancient Chinese societies. All occupations that, to this day, may be hailed as noble by Chinese women, but not really deemed attractive by them.

Beauty, being an instinct, is perhaps much more resistant to propaganda.

If anything, the three terms Article O3 used to describe “effeminate” men ~ 奶油小生 “cream young men” (popularised in 1980s) , 花美男 “flowery beautiful men” (early 2000s), 小鲜肉 “little fresh meat” (coined in 2014 and still popular now) ~ only informs me how incredibly consistent the modern Chinese women’s view of ideal male beauty has been. It’s the same beauty the Chinese Communist Party has called feminine. It’s the same beauty found in Danmei. It’s the same beauty that, when witnessed in men in ancient China, was so revered that historians recorded it for their descendants to remember. It doesn’t mean there aren’t any women who appreciate the "macho” type ~ it’s just that, the appreciation for the non-macho type has never really gone out of fashion, never really changed. The only thing that is really changing is the name of the type, the name’s positive or negative connotations.

(Personally, I’m far more uncomfortable with the name “Little fresh meat” (小鲜肉) than 老婆 (wife). I find it much more insulting.)

Anyway, what I’d like to say is this: feminisation in Danmei ~ a genre that, by definition, is hyper-focused on aesthetics ~ may not be as "problematic” in Chinese as it is in English, because the Chinese tradition didn’t make that much of a differentiation between masculine and feminine beauty. Once again, this isn’t to say such mis-gendering isn’t disrespectful; it’s just that, perhaps, it is less disrespectful because Chinese still retains a cultural memory in which equating a beautiful man to a beautiful woman was the utmost flattery. 

I must put a disclaimer here: I cannot vouch for this being true for the general Chinese population. This is something that is buried deep enough inside me that it took a lot of thought for me to tease out, to articulate. More importantly, while I grow up in a Chinese-speaking environment, I’ve never lived inside China. My history knowledge, while isn’t shabby, hasn’t been filtered through the state education system.

I’d also like to point out as well, along this line of thought, that in *certain* (definitely not all) aspects, Chinese society isn’t as sexist as the West. While historically, China has periods of extreme sexism against women, with the final dynasties of Ming and Qing being examples, I must (reluctantly) acknowledge Chairman Mao for significantly lifting the status of women during his rule. Here’s a famous quote of his from 1955:

婦女能頂半邊天 Women can lift half the skies

The first marriage code, passed in 1950, outlawed forced marriages, polygamy, and ensured equal rights between husband and wife.  For the first time in centuries, women were encouraged to go outside of their homes and work. Men resisted at first, wanting to keep their wives at home; women who did work were judged poorly for their performance and given less than 50% of men’s wage, which further fuelled the men’s resistance. Mao said the above quote after a commune in Guizhou introduced the “same-work-same-wage” system to increase its productivity, and he asked for the same system to to be replicated across the country. (Source)

When Chairman Mao wanted something, it happened. Today, Chinese women’s contribution to the country’s GDP remains among the highest in the world.  They make up more than half of the country’s top-scoring students. They’re the dominant gender in universities, in the ranks of local employees of international corporations in the Shanghai and Beijing central business districts—among the most sought after jobs in the country. While the inequality between men and women in the workplace is no where near wiped out — stories about women having to sleep with higher-ups to climb the career ladder, or even get their PhDs are not unheard of, and the central rulership of the Chinese Communist Party has been famously short of women — the leap in women’s rights has been significant over the past century, perhaps because of how little rights there had been before ~ at the start of the 20th century, most Chinese women from relatively well-to-do families still practised foot-binding, in which their feet were literally crushed during childhood in the name of beauty, of status symbol. They couldn’t even walk properly.

Perhaps, the contemporary Chinese women’s economic contribution makes the sexism they encounter in their lives, from the lack of reproductive rights to the “leftover women” label, even harder to swallow. It makes their fantasies fly to even higher, more defiant heights. The popularity of Dangai right now is pretty much driven by women, as acknowledged by Article O3. Young women, especially, female fans who people have dismissed as “immature”, “crazy”, are responsible for the threat the Chinese government is feeling now by the genre.

This is no small feat. While the Chinese government complains about the “effeminate” men from Danmei / Dangai, its propaganda has been heavily reliant on stars who have risen to popularity to these genres. The film Dd is currently shooting, Chinese Peacekeeping Force (維和部隊), also stars Huang Jingyu (黄景瑜), and Zhang Zhehan (張哲瀚) ~ the three actors having shot to fame from The Untamed (Dangai), Addicted (Danmei), and Word of Honour (Dangai) respectively.  Zhang, in particular, played the “uke” role in Word of Honour and has also been called 老婆 (wife) by his fans. The quote in Article O3, “Ten years as a tough man known by none; one day as a beauty known by all” was also implicitly referring to him.

Perhaps, the government will eventually realise that millennia-old standards of beauty are difficult to bend, and by extension, what is considered appropriate gender expression of Chinese men and women. 

In the metas I’ve posted, therefore, I’ve hesitated in using terms such as homophobia, sexism, and ageism etc, opting instead to make long-winded explanations that essentially amount to these terms (thank you everyone who’s reading for your patience!). Because while the consequence is similar—certain fraction of the populations are subjected to systemic discrimination, abuse, given less rights, treated as inferior etc—these words, in English, also come with their own context, their own assumptions that may not apply to the situation. It reminds me of what Leo Tolstoy wrote in Anna Karenina,

“All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”

Discrimination in each country, each culture is humiliating, unhappy in its own way. Both sexism and homophobia are rampant in China, but as their roots are different from those of the West, the ways they manifest are different, and so must the paths to their dissolution. I’ve also hesitated on calling out individual behaviours or confronting individuals for this reason. i-Danmei fandoms are where i-fans and c-fans meet, where English-speaking doesn’t guarantee a non-Chinese sociopolitical background (there may be students from China, for example; I’m also ... not entirely Western), and I find it difficult to articulate appropriate, convincing arguments without knowing individual backgrounds.

Frankly, I’m not sure if I’ve done the right thing. Because I do hope feminisation will soon fade into extinction, especially in i-Danmei fandoms that, if they continue to prosper on international platforms, may eventually split from c-Danmei fandoms along the cultural (not language) line due to the vast differences in environmental constraints. My hope is especially true when real people are involved, and c-fandoms, I’d like to note, are not unaware of the issues surrounding feminisation ~ it has already been explicitly forbidden in BJYX’s supertopic on Weibo. 

At the same time, I’ve spent so many words above to try to explain why beauty can *sometimes* lurk behind such feminisations. Please allow me to end this post with one example of feminisation that I deeply dislike—and I’ve seen it used by fans on Gg as well—is 綠茶 (”green tea”), from 綠茶婊 (”green tea whore”) that means women who look pure / innocent but are, deep down, promiscuous / lustful. In some ways, its meaning isn’t so different from Daji 妲己, the consort blamed for the fall of the Shang dynasty. However, to me at least, the flattery in the feminisation is gone, perhaps because of the character “whore” (婊), because the term originated in 2013 from a notorious sex party rather than from a legendary beauty so maligned that The Investiture of the Gods (封神演義), the seminal Chinese fiction written ~2,600 years after Daji’s death, re-imagined her as a malevolent fox spirit (狐狸精) that many still remembers her as today.

Ah, to be caught between two cultures. :)

[justiceleaque]

Hey Leaque! I know you watched the new Justice League movie and I was around when you were doing the very first DC movie reviews back in the day. I would absolutely love a review of this one if you have the time :)

i've been a fan of Snyder's universe from day 1 so i understand this might be considered an off-balance review already, but i want to note that i didn't come in wanting the film to be good or willing to see it as good despite actual impressions. i wanted to watch it as the Justice League movie i was supposed to get back in 2017, the same one i was willing to not watch for years if it meant Zack Snyder got to finish his vision even later down the line

i was actually as neutral as i could possibly get because at this point i don't have any real emotional involvement in whether this version of the DCEU continues or not. WB execs have done some fucked up things with the treatment of the cast/ray fisher, so i take this as Snyder's DC trilogy and nothing more (which makes it bittersweet for me but that's a different topic)

heavy spoilers follow

it's incredibly comic book-like. i remember typing the exact same words back in the Dawn of Justice days: it doesn't read as a superhero film a la Marvel but as a comic book film. each frame could be a realistically painted comic book frame; the dialogues would fit freakishly well if they had to fit speech bubbles. the damn scene overlaps and changes are heavily reminiscent of a comic book. better yet: of a Justice League comic book. if you’re familiar with comic book events where big things happen and it affects everyone, this is how this reads

it’s a heavy film but it’s not hopeless. i’ve been seeing reviews pop-up already: “ZS’s Justice League film is twice as longe and twice as hopeless” is the maybe verbatim title of most articles. the one thing i kept thinking throughout these four hours is how much hope this is filled with. we’re dealing with a post-superman world that was shaken by the loss of a beloved superhero and you see batman, the #1 comic book superhero known for brooding and darkness and all things sad and bad, be the loudest, most hopeful person in the film, trying to get a team together to save the world, and later on being two steps from literally screaming that bringing back superman is what should happen no matter the cost because of his faith and hope in winning. did we watch the same film?

in the same vein, the 4 hours seem like a stretch until you realize each part has an actual purpose that introduces or ties in important aspects related to the film’s one purpose: take down Steppenwolf and Darkseid. i don’t believe any scene was wasted on useless information. it can get tiring in the way watching a shot tv series gets tiring: it does NOT get boring at any point

such wonderful character arcs. seeing each of the team’s personalities and quirks, the way they clash with each other, the way it makes it all work so goddamn beautifully. the way they click because they just keep interacting so much? Whedon’s cut didn’t give me a team, it gave me five different people in costume that were forced to sort of work in the same vicinity as each other. Snyder’s cut gave me a version of the Justice League that worked so flawlessly together by the end of the film it felt like a dance. felt like comic book page spreads

right before the epilogue they all pose together in the rising dawn, clark included, having won. super reminiscent of the JL cartoon intro. i cried a bit

J’ONN J’ONZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO YOU KNOW THE AMOUNT OF SPECULATION ABOUT GENERAL SWANWICK BEING THE MARTIAN MANHUNTER BACK WHEN MAN OF STEEL WAS RELEASED???? VINDICATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

listen to me. i need to make this clear. listen.  j’onn. j’onny boy. the way he’s designed and cgi’d..........the adorable frown............the kind smile......................his obvious need to make others feel better and to simply help......................i love him

his interaction with bruce only comes in the end and it’s super brief but seeing those two still not know how the hell each other works even in film format is hilarious. bruce having accepted aliens and magic and shit is the new norm after like 20 years of only having to deal with the joker attempting to rob neon green hair dyes or some shit is so much bigger of a character development than i ever expected, especially coming from BvS where he’s just a stupid fat-bat-carrying onion

i wasn’t a big fan of Suicide Squad’s joker portrayal but we get to see him at the end of the film while we’re seeing a possible future where lois lane has died and superman is best friends with darkseid playing tic-tac-antilife equation. Snyder somehow managed to turn jared leto into a disgustingly legit comic-faithful joker. dont’ ask me how

in the same scene they mention jason and his death

: - (

we see a few bits of some green lanterns in some scenes, one from the past and one from a possible ultra dark and edgy darkseid future. still convinced bruce simply willingly did not go looking for hal, which, fair

they cut out the fish joke bruce tells arthur when they first meet which immediately turns the whole film into a 1/10 for me

ben affleck’s bruce wayne and batman continue being my favorite on-screen batman iteration to date. we finally move from the usual dark lone soldier version Hollywood is relentlessly giving us into one that belongs with the Justice League. incredibly heartwarming to see

there’s a scene when the JL are first assaulting Steppenwolf’s base and they’re all fighting parademons and shit and there’s a moment where you see batman fighting the Space SWAT From Hell alone and the way he moves? the way he flows from one position to another and another like i’m watching a damn comic book animation????????? sir????????????????????

barry allen saved them

like, literally, barry allen saved them. superman was back and everyone was ready to dance one final time and they were all going ‘steppenwolf fucking SUCKS’ and steppenwolf was crying to darkseid and then the motherboxes did their thing and they all were obliterated into star dust and then barry allen was like ‘bitch i told you i need FRIENDS’ and turned back time and now they’re all okay again :o)

darkseid @ batman through his magic spacetime portal: i’m gonna get your ass one day soon and take you back in time and you’re gonna eventually bring about the end of the world by having every dark twisted batman invade your universe because you inspired them

batman:

batman:

batman: i haven’t read Rebirth bro

i know i’m forgetting stuff but that’s the gist. hands down one of the best comic book film experiences i’ve ever had. with an aside to barry allen being more of a mix of barry and wally, everyone feels incredibly faithful to the source material. also batman definitely killed like, at least 400 parademons in one night, but pest control doesn’t count

(like. he straight up obliterates them)

(pulls out a batbazuka on them)

(amazing)

[marvelsbanner]

Body, Mind, and Soul

Prompt: there simply needs to be more vision fic out there🥺 may i request a cute one where you've been going out for a while but the big L word hasn't been said yet and vis is just.. trying his best to tell you but doesn't know how🥺🥺 he's just so cute like that😭❤️ kissy i love ur stuff

Pairing: Vision x reader

Warnings: Slight language, tooth rotting fluff - beware of cavities 

Word Count: ~1700

A/n: Reblogs, likes, and feedback are very much appreciated! <3 All mistakes are my own! 

**I do not own marvel, sadly** **not my gif**

“Darling, may I speak with you for a moment?”

Vision phased through your walls to where you were sitting on your bed reading. Months ago you would have jumped straight out of your bones, startled by the synthezoid’s intrusion and lack of personal boundaries. In all honestly, it was no sooner after you had explained the concept of privacy and simple manners to Vision that you had come to look forward to his visits, not caring if he was intruding as long as he came to see you at all. 

It was strange, you’ll admit- very strange. You were the newest Avenger recruit, and the youngest (if you didn’t count that he was technically born a little over a year ago? He had the wisdom of a thousand year old sorcerer, so you didn’t think of him as younger) and so he had a naturally protective nature about him when it came to you. 

He always tried to be by your side during missions, saving your ass on multiple occasions. He never made you feel weak or like you needed protecting, but he was just always there for you. Not just in missions, but in everything. Joining the Avengers was a life changing decision that was not easy in any sense. You didn’t exactly have the prettiest past, which is partially what landed you there in the first place. You knew that none of the members there were exactly saints, but you couldn’t help but feel like you didn’t deserve the new chance at life you were given. Not to mention you had been hearing about the Avengers for years now, and in your mind it was hard to take them off of this pedestal of superhero-assassin-gods to simple coworkers and family. 

Vision could sense your uneasiness, they all could really- but he had no filter and no sense of boundaries and was the only one to confront you about it. You were taken aback at first, but it was truly exactly what you needed. 

He would bring dinner to your room, offering to sit with you as you ate- even though he didn’t need to himself. He brought you DVDs, claiming Wanda told him that they were what lifted her mood. When that didn’t work he tried bringing some old records that Tony recommended, eventually bringing some books from Steve’s “project modernization” stash that peaked your interest. Some nights he would sit with you as you read, reading over your shoulder or watching something on the tv, just content to be in your presence. You never asked him to, and you never asked why, but you also never asked him to leave. 

The dynamic between the two of was certainly an unlikely one, Steve even asking you at one point if he needed to tell the Synthezoid to back off before you assured him that it was fine. 

Somewhere along the way you found yourself falling for Vision, utterly terrified and mortified over the uncertainty of if he could even feel those kinds of feelings towards anyone in return. But then you would hear him laugh at one of your jokes, a real hearty laugh when the joke wasn’t even that funny- or that smile, that god damn smile that stretched across his entire face with those pearly whites that made your heart flutter in your chest, or even worse- the small, shy smile that he would give you when he didn’t think you could see him that brought a faint blush to your cheeks every time. It was in those moments you let yourself feel a slimmer of hope that he could maybe, just maybe feel the same way. 

He eventually figures out that he feels the same as well, after a long conversation he had with Tony and Bruce over whether those feelings should even be possible for him or not. He decides that whether or not he should be able to, he most definitely did, and suddenly fleeting glances and stolen cozy nights turned into hands intertwined under the table during meetings and stolen kisses in the compound halls. 

A year later and everyone knows that it’s never just y/n or Vision, you get the both of you or neither of you, because you were a team.

About a month after the two of you had confessed your feelings Vis had asked you to “go steady”, it was adorable really- he said he saw it in a movie and thought it was what most human couples still did, and he was so nervous and flustered and cute you couldn’t help but say yes. 

Boyfriend and girlfriend, partners in crime, lovers- whatever you wanted to call it, you were. The labels didn’t matter, all that mattered was that you knew how you felt about each other. At least, you hoped you did. 

Vis had been acting strangely lately. He seemed more nervous around you; he was stuttering and losing his train of thought- he would sometimes act like he had something important to say and would end up saying nothing at all. Sometimes he would bring you flowers out of nowhere or prepare a meal he knew you loved, just to disappear for the rest of the night and you weren’t sure what to make of it. Sometimes he would babble on and on about some sort of poetic metaphor and ask if you understood what he meant and when you didn’t he would just tell you to pretend he said nothing at all. 

So there he was, phasing through your wall and asking to talk and you could see a large bouquet of roses behind his hand and you weren’t sure whether to be excited or scared or all of the above, so you simply dog-eared your book and set it aside, patting the empty side of the bed next to you for him to sit. 

He settled on the floor before walking over to the side of the bed and sitting, revealing the bouquet of flowers fully before shyly offering them to you.

“I was informed bouquets are a romantic gesture appropriate for such occasions” he explained, hands fidgeting as he spoke, not making eye contact with you. 

“And what occasion is that?” You inquire, quirking a brow at his behavior. 

“Ah yes that, right, well..” He started before opening and closing his mouth a few times, unsure of how to go on. 

“Darling, I don’t have much to go on with this in terms of past experience- this is all very new to me as you know, however, I have come to understand that there is a certain point in relationships, romantic relationships that is, where the feelings that one has for the other might start to change.” He explains, fingers continuing to fidget and pull at another. 

“Vis.. if this is you wanting a break from me, from us- flowers don’t exactly portray that message clearly..” You reply, anxiety beginning to settle in your chest.

As soon as you say that, any worries at what he could be implying flood your mind as his face fills with distress.

“Oh no- darling, no, that’s not what I was getting at at all!” He hurriedly says, setting the flowers on the bed and taking your hands in his own. “No no, it’s quite the opposite actually! See, I’ve been wanting to tell you this for quite a while, months even! But I wasn’t sure when a good time would be, and no article online could give me a set answer and I didn’t know how you felt- I thought I did sometimes but other times I just couldn’t be sure and then on this last mission when you almost got hurt and I couldn’t bear the thought that-“ you cut off his rambling by taking his cold face in your hands, “Vis hunny, slow down. What is it you want to tell me?” You ask, finally getting him to meet your eyes. He looked more nervous now than he had been for any mission in the past. 

He hands came up to rest atop your own on his face, intertwining your fingers together as he spoke softly, “Well darling, I just- I just thought, we’ve been together for quite some time now, and I think I can safely say- maybe- I hope- that neither one of us want to be letting this go anytime soon and I, well I just thought you ought to know that I love you.” 

A smile immediately pulled at your lips, you had been so afraid just a moment ago that he wanted nothing to do with you and there he was, telling you that he wanted everything to do with you. You wanted to say it back, you wanted to scream it out but he was sitting there with his big anxious doe eyes and a small, nervous smile as he awaits for your answer and suddenly all your words fail you- so you pull him in to a kiss instead. 

It was sweet but not chaste, lips firmly planted against each other as you fought the urge to cry because he was so perfect and you felt more loved than you had ever felt before. Your hands clutched the sides of his face as he planted his on your shoulder blades, bringing you closer to him but never too forcefully- always giving you the option to retreat, but you never take it, and you never will. 

The two of you finally part, gasping for air as he searches your eyes to gouge your reaction and finds a singular stray tear, chasing it away with a swipe of his finger. 

“So, may I assume that this may be reciprocated?” He asks shyly and you laugh, the two of you laugh together with big smiles and open hearts and you assure him “Yes, Vis, I love you, I love you too. Body, mind, and soul.”

“Body, mind, and soul.” He repeats, a smile forming at his lips before he pulls you in for another kiss, the rest of the world melting away until it felt like only the two of you, like it was always meant to be. 

[nerdygaymormon]

uhhhh david have you gotten the liahona yet bc idk how to feel about an article i found in there yesterday. it was pretty comforting and basic, but did use ssa the whole time. BUT the youth one was pretty crappy, it used ssa to the max and gave no real hope, was pretty bland and annoying about oh itll be find just believe and jesus and get hatecrimed <3 i would like to hear your thoughts on it, its the first time ive seen any queer topics in church magazines

Thanks for bringing these to my attention.

"Same-sex attraction" (SSA) is the preferred term of Church leaders. They say it's a way of not making it your identity, that this isn't part of who I am but rather is something I'm dealing with. In other words, people "have" same-sex attraction, not that they "are" gay or lesbian or bi.

There have been a few leaks from behind-the-scenes where the apostles say they use "same-sex attraction" because it's the term that people like least. People like it less that same-gender attraction or gay/lesbian. SSA includes the word "sex" and I guess the idea is it gets people to think of sexual acts and feel queasy.

SSA is the term normally used in Church magazines because they follow the lead of the First Presidency and apostles.

There's 3 items in the Church magazines this month about queer people! That's a lot for one month.

————————————————————

The first is a bishop talking about how to understand and include LGBT people at church. After becoming bishop, 3 sets of parents contacted him distressed that their child is gay or transgender (I note that the parents used "gay." He also mentions contacting someone who 'identifies as gay").

His first recommendation is to follow the living apostles. (which explains why the bishop uses "SSA" even though everyone else around him used "gay"). It's a good idea for a local leader to find what the current leaders are saying because it's changed. He also says to read the Church's websites titled “Same-Sex Attraction” and “Transgender.” He provides two lovely quotes from those pages about diversity at church and being loving to people who are different.

His second recommendation is to not be afraid to talk to people who identify as gay, but instead try to have love for them and then let the Spirit guide you in what to say. We're just people, it shouldn't be scary to talk to us, that shows how different he thinks we are from the other people he interacts with in his ward.

The bishop's third suggestion is to speak to people who are familiar with LGBT "issues," share your testimony, and apologize for hurtful things you say. His list of people to contact for help understanding was a little disheartening because he starts with his stake leaders, ward leaders, other bishops, and so on, actual queer people were the last people on his list.

He continues by saying to pull aside members who are saying homophobic or transphobic things and give them some personal guidance, don't share private information that a member shares with the bishop, and just because someone has these "attractions" doesn't mean they're acting on them, and if they aren't "acting" on them then you can let them have a calling.

I have a few comments about the last few things. If no one corrects the homophobic/transphobic comments in public but instead privately suggests the person do better, every one who heard those comments thinks they stand unchallenged. The atmosphere created by the comments is unchanged. Especially if the bishop was present to hear those words, if they go uncontested then people think this is what is acceptable.

You'd think bishops know not to share private information a member shares with them. I've been around long enough to know that when a bishop is unsure what to do, he starts contacting his network (stake presidency, other bishops) asking for advice. Some bishops are discreet when doing this and others name the individuals.

While it seems basic, I recently had a counselor in a bishopric who didn't think gay people could get a temple recommend, that there's a zero-tolerance policy. That is an attitude that is outdated by a couple of decades, but it shows that people need to learn that simply existing as a gay or trans person doesn't automatically mean we are committing great sins.

I do find it interesting there appears to have been quite a few queer individuals in his ward, at least 4 or 5, and reading between the lines it seems they all stopped attending.

The bishop's heart is in the right place. I get he's following the Church leaders and that limits some of what he can do for queer people in his ward. I think his perspective primarily is of making the parents feel more welcome in the ward and not ostracized for having queer kids.

————————————————————

The second article in the Liahona is written by a person with same-sex attraction and his work to overcome the shame he felt.

It's a much better article than the one written by the bishop. This person shares about the shame they felt at having gay feelings and working with a therapist to overcome that shame. He shares 3 lessons that helped him with this process.

1) God and Jesus love and accept him as he is. This is a message that doesn't often get conveyed to queer members and it's important they know this.

2) The Atonement of Jesus Christ offers healing. At first he was wanting the Atonement to cure him of being gay, but instead it helped him be healed of the shame he felt. I hear so many members who think the Atonement can change us from gay to straight, and that's not true. I'm glad he made this distinction. Our Heavenly Parents don't view being gay or trans as something that needs to be cured. I wish that message was taught more openly in the Church.

3) Build deeper connections and show compassion. Loneliness and feeling like you don't belong at church are two of the most troubling aspects an LGBTQ+ person has to deal with if they are active in the LDS Church. Developing close friendships will help with that. Also, queer people tend to be more compassionate than the average person and I believe it's because of the experiences we had to deal with of living in a heteronormative world that isn't made for us.

He includes a few useful tips at the end on how to engage with queer people.

All in all, a much better story than the one written by the bishop. He shared part of how it feels to be a gay member of this church, the idea that he should be ashamed for who he is, that being gay isn’t a burden, that he doesn't fit in.

I appreciated he said this is part of his layers of identity and at the core of his identity is that we're children of heavenly parents. That's more nuanced than the apostles who reject being gay has anything to do with identity and our only identity should be a child of God.

————————————————————

The final story is from For the Strength of Youth. This piece seems like it's written by a queer person, but it's anonymous and given as general advice to show that people with same-sex attraction belong at church.

This article makes 3 main points. The first is that God loves you. That's true, although accompanying quotes to back up this principle aren't specifically about queer people.

The second point is "you belong." All sorts of people attend church, and God is no respecter of persons. Then they have a quote from Elder L. Whitney Clayton that people with same-sex attraction are welcome to come to church. To me, he's an odd choice to give this message as he led the Church's fight in California on Prop 8 to make gay marriage illegal again. Words aren't enough. Saying I'm welcome is not the same as making a welcoming climate.

The third point is that God will help you. They include a quote from Laura F. who experiences same-sex attraction. She writes about prayer, scripture study, temple and church attendance. However, she also says she doesn't know what her life will look like in 20 years, she seems to be leaving open the possibility her journey with God will lead her to romance and out of the church. I thought that was very honest and important.

————————————————————

I found it noteworthy that nowhere in these 3 articles does it say being alone and celibate is good and what God wants.

I appreciate the idea that we can make our local congregations less homophobic/transphobic. The suggestions from the bishops shows that the bar is pretty low and it doesn't take much to make an improvement from how things are now.

The voices of the two gay members was important, what they shared was useful but nuanced, didn't make commitments to staying in the church long-term or testify that what the church requires is what God wants for them.

Even so, it's clear the publisher is very careful. They use "same-sex attraction" so often, I think readers would be surprised the preferred term of most same-sex attracted people would be gay, bi or lesbian. While they addressed some things, like homophobic/transphobic comments, feeling shame & not fitting in, I think they largely skated past the things that make queer people decide that this church isn't for them.

There's a part of me that says I'm glad we're having this conversation in the Church magazines, but another part that says this is too sanitized and doesn't get at the heart of things. These are very hopeful messages that make it seem that queer people could easily choose to stay in church if a few adjustments were made and if they only understood God loves them, which avoids the "doctrine" that excludes queer people from the highest blessings and joys and makes us essentially second-class citizens in the kingdom of God, at least according to our church.