#Alicent is not justifable because she's a women

[littlegondolinmonster]

FEMALE characters for which I would die for, FEMALE characters which were wronged by men so many times. FEMALE characters I would sell my soul for. FEMLE characters which deserved better. FEMALE characters which get unfounded hate from FANDOMS. I WILL FIGHT ANYONE WHO DISRESPECTES THEM. I WILL FUCKING SCREAM. I supported their rights and wrongs yesterday. I am supporting their rights and wrong today. I will support their rights and wrongs tomorrow.

No Xddd I'm fucking joking with the last one, they are to perfect to have any wrongs.

Mothers are mothering

[agentrouka-blog]

I guarantee the ones who can’t understand how TB isn’t feminist are the same who can’t understand Dany was never a feminist. It’s always this one woman above all the rest, and they think this helps all women because one woman is able to change things for herself. They also think Alicent chose wrong, so she either can’t be a victim or deserves to suffer under patriarchy, and is as bad as Otto or whoever “seeks to maintain the status quo”.

They confuse power for a single character with systemic change for all characters.

This disdain for systemic issues really does tend to make them react with aggression against victims of said system who lack the means to easily rebel, imagining choice where it doesn't exist.

Rhaenyra and Daenerys are both handed immense privilege alongside their oppression, and they use it to benefit themselves and that makes for a compelling story, but it doesn't make them feminist and it doesn't make them inherently virtuous.

Pretending their rise is not related to their unique advantages is silly. Condemning characters who lack these unique advantages for not rising in the same way is ordinary victim-blaming.

Otto's as interested in the advance of women as a class as Rhaenyra is, which is zero on both sides. Same with Dany.

A properly feminist story would allow the female characters to be as flawed and selfish and charming and complex as the male characters without feeling the need to give them extra justification, as if apologizing for taking up screentime that should rightfully belong to male characters.

[saintsenara]

You mentioned fanon turning barty crouch jr. into an uninteresting character. I don't know much about what the new fanon characterisation has really done with him, but I'm curious for your thoughts on why he's a canonically interesting character. I agree that he is, but it sounds like you might have some interesting thoughts on it that are already fleshed out.

thank you for the ask, @jamesunderwater, and i'm sorry for taking so long to drag myself around to answering this.

as you may have gathered if you’ve read my views on jegulus or wolfstar, the common fanon interpretation of marauders-era characters and i don’t really get on.

this is not a new development - me and goofy fanon sirius have been beefing for over a decade at this point, i fear - but our enmity has taken on a new form since [roughly] 2020, when the emergence of what we might call the modern marauders subfandom brought with it a whole series of expectations about characters, ships, personalities, and appearances in first war stories which - let me state my position immediately - have absolutely nothing to do with the characters as they are in canon.

i could talk about sirius or regulus or james or snape or lupin until the cows come home - as, i’m sure, could many of us - but i also dislike the expectations the marauders subfandom has around its supporting cast. these characters - who largely fall under the categories of women, slytherins, or both - have names that we might recognise from canon, but they are - to all intents and purposes - original characters.

to do some marauders fan defending, i do understand the rationale behind this. hogwarts is a school, and it needs to be filled with the sort of incidental characters that lightning-era writers can pull from the canon text [shoutout to ernie macmillan, the mvp]. if you’re writing about lily, then she needs friends - why not have them be alice, marlene, dorcas, emmeline, pandora etc.?

[well, because dumbledore isn’t running a child army. it makes no sense for the entire order of the phoenix to be in the same school year - and the idea that alice is probably around ten years older than lily, that pandora is around the same age as narcissa malfoy and isn’t a pureblood, and that marlene, dorcas, and emmeline are hard-nosed ministry bitches in their fifties who can have mad-eye moody quaking with just a look is something which can be prised from my cold, dead hands.]

and if you’re writing about the epic highs and lows of high-school football going to school during a sectarian conflict, then you need some antagonists. which is to say, you need some slytherins.

the issue i have is that the three key slytherins who seem to have been elevated to principal cast in the marauders pantheon - regulus black, barty crouch jr., and evan rosier - get what can only be called the smol bean treatment. that is, that three teenagers who all canonically join a terror organisation are turned into soft and tiny babies who thought lord voldemort was just feeling silly when he said, "my aim is the eradication of the muggleborn population through violent means."

and even fics which do acknowledge that the three willingly become terrorists often go out of their way to provide justifications for this which don’t contextualise their decision [something which is important - you can’t write about snape becoming a death eater without acknowledging the way that poverty, loneliness, and a sense of hopelessness make someone an easy target of radicalisation] but which minimise it. sometimes, their violence is turned into romantic vengeance - i’ve seen a fair amount of suggestions that barty goes to torture the longbottoms because frank was the auror who killed evan. sometimes, authors imply - or even outright state - that there’s no need to see these boys as aspiring villains: voldemort is right; the class system is good and should be maintained; and purebloods [usually james, sirius, regulus, barty, evan and maybe a token woman or two] should stick together while the half-breeds and the mudbloods go hang.

this - like all aristocracy wank in this fandom - annoys me enough with regulus and evan. but it’s particularly grating when it comes to barty crouch jr. because - unlike evan, who is literally just a name in the text, and regulus, who isn’t much more - he actually has a canon personality.

and it’s fascinating. indeed, i would even go so far as to say that barty crouch jr. is the greatest villain in the harry potter series.

[my apologies to lord voldemort.]

after all, even though he’s been imprisoned under the imperius curse for over a decade, barty is still so lucid and powerful that he is able to:

produce magic capable of tricking the goblet of fire, which is treated by all the adult characters involved as unprecedented.

pull off a year-long impersonation of a man whom dumbledore evidently knows extremely well without being clocked until his mission has been successful, even though his opportunities to observe the real moody can have been virtually non-existent. he is in character within seconds of his ambush on moody’s home - after the intruder-alert dustbins are set off - and is able to persuade ministry personnel who can be presumed to have met moody personally [including both amos diggory and arthur weasley, who appear to know him not only personally, but well] that he is the real deal. he maintains his performance even under close scrutiny from the teaching colleagues he has to interact with daily at hogwarts, despite the fact that he presumably can’t get a great deal out of the real moody, since he’s having to be kept deliberately weak and docile under the imperius curse.

manipulate multiple people into become accessories to his crimes, without ever being suspected of doing so. with the hindsight of knowing who he is, the first defence against the dark arts lesson in goblet of fire, in which "moody" deliberately distresses neville by using the cruciatus curse directly in front of him, before swooping in to be the person to cheer him up so that he can plant information which will help harry win the triwizard tournament and deliver him to voldemort, is chilling. he just gets unlucky that harry has the biggest martyr complex in human history.

commit murder on hogwarts’ grounds without ever being suspected of wrongdoing.

execute lord voldemort’s plan to kidnap harry and use him in his resurrection ritual flawlessly. the plan itself may be convoluted - but dark lords are allowed to have a flair for the dramatic, as a treat - but, crucially, it works, and barty succeeds in every respect.

but, i concede, we’re talking about the adult barty here. perhaps he was once a sweetheart who went unfortunately off the rails after his father sent him to prison and then - in effect - drugged him for years. that wouldn’t be a ridiculous suggestion.

except for the fact that - canonically - the teen barty was just as clever, sly, manipulative, and - above all - ardent in his support for voldemort as his adult self.

at his trial in the early 1980s, young barty gives the performance of a lifetime. he screams, he shakes, he looks terrified of the dementors, he is pale and weak and harmless-looking, he begs his mother to help him, he pleads with his father for mercy, he maintains his innocence as he's dragged off to his cell. he gives off the impression of simply having been in the wrong place at the wrong time so well that harry is almost certain that his conviction is illegitimate. so too, it is implied, is dumbledore.

indeed, barty plays the part of the wrongfully imprisoned so well that - as canon tells us - he not only influences public opinion to be broadly in favour of his probable innocence [or, at least, his diminished culpability - sirius suggests that the widespread view was that he was probably there, but that he only ended up involved in what was clearly bellatrix’s idea because of his father’s failure to relate to him properly], but also changes public opinion against the government’s anti-death-eater strategy entirely.

following his imprisonment, his father - a man who never met an extrajudicial punishment he didn’t like, and whose ruthless approach to dealing with the death eaters in the first war [such as his use of internment for suspected terrorists and his order to aurors to shoot to kill] was, we are told, enormously popular with the wizarding public - is forced to resign in disgrace from his role as head of the department of magical law enforcement. crouch sr. is quietly shuffled off into a boring bureaucratic position, his ambitions to be minister in tatters, and his only way forward to free his son from the prison cell where he is languishing for the crime he very literally did.

[as an aside, i do think that we are supposed to read bellatrix as the ringleader of the torture of the longbottoms. but, all too often, that gets reduced to her doing everything while rodolphus, rabastan, and barty just stand there gormlessly. they were clearly performing the curses too!]

now, barty’s unusual cunning can - of course - be explained by narrative reasons. the text needs to conceal that he’s the villain [since, as with philosopher’s stone, it wants to imply that the dark lord’s faithful servant at hogwarts is snape] until the very end - and this naturally requires dumbledore to not think too hard about whether his good judy alastor is behaving even more strangely than usual.

the text also needs to suggest that he's innocent in order to properly stick the landing on the narrative role of his father - barty crouch sr. as with dolores umbridge in order of the phoenix, crouch sr. exists to show harry [and the reader] that the rot in the wizarding world was not caused by - and will not stop with the defeat of - voldemort. his ruthlessness and inflexibility, his lack of respect for due process, his astonishingly cruel treatment of winky [brutal beyond even the standard way in which wizards abuse their enslaved elves] all serve to teach harry that the anti-voldemort cause can become just as easily corrupted as the disillusioned young men in voldemort’s orbit. the suggestion that crouch sent his own son to azkaban without good reason, simply because he would not deviate from his beliefs, is an important lesson to harry about what "justice" actually means.

but, despite this, barty is also able to pull off his deception because he’s spectacularly talented. it’s not all just narrative.

and his talents are caused by characteristics which aren’t good or bad in and of themselves. he’s clearly very intelligent [he got twelve owls, the series’ benchmark for genius]. he’s hyper-observant, creative, adaptable, good under pressure, and possessed of nerves of steel. he shares these traits with other villains in the series - voldemort above all - but he also shares them with plenty of the heroes. harry, for one.

which is to say that all of his personality traits could be put to non-criminal uses. but - as with harry, who is capable of being quite sinister when he wants to be [for example, when he manipulates slughorn into giving up the horcrux memory] - they would give a non-criminal barty an edge. and this doesn’t seem to be present in his standard fanon persona - as sweet and goofy as all marauders-era men - to any great extent.

finally, there is another aspect of barty’s character which is absent from his fanon version - that he clearly has some sort of childhood trauma, but that this does not excuse any of what he does.

even though crouch sr. is right to send him to azkaban, he was clearly also a cold and distant father, who had absolutely no idea how to relate to his son.

[as another aside, this emotional negligence is bad enough without it needing to be written as having been accompanied by extreme physical and/or sexual abuse. there seems to be a real tendency in fanfiction - not only in marauders-era stuff, although the exaggeration of orion and walburga black into despotic villains is one example of this - to make childhood misery "worse", in order to justify a character’s later actions.]

voldemort demonstrably uses barty’s terrible relationship with crouch sr. [and his absolutely flagrant daddy kink] to groom him into taking the dark mark [not least because there’s otherwise no explanation for why he cheerfully informs him that he too is named after his dad], which he may very well end up taking when he’s still at school. my reading is that he’s recruited to inform on his father - since voldemort would undoubtedly wish to keep the head of the department of magical law enforcement under constant surveillance - and that this is why the dark lord pays him the attention he is so obviously lacking.

but, as with snape and regulus and draco malfoy and all the other young death eaters, barty also colludes in his own radicalisation. voldemort is a master at ensnaring recruits, sure, but he’s also a busy man. he only bothers to make the effort because the clever, creative, cunning, manipulative young man - who wishes to avenge himself on the father who never paid him attention [sound familiar?] - he finds before him is very much determined to become a spectacular part of his terrorist organisation. and stories which feature him owe it to him to give him that dark complexity of character

show the series’ best villain some respect.

[bl00dlight]

THOUGHTS ON S2 ALICENT AND HOW EVERYONE IS WRONG ABOUT HER.

Now that I've had some time to process and review. Here are my final thoughts/ hot takes. Some of these will probs conflict with my initial reactions to thing.

It wasn't a mischaracterisation of Alicent to abandon Aegon and Aemond, considering she never liked them to begin with. Which is literally the reason behind Aegon and Aemond being dysfunctional; her love was given conditionally. She only ever defended them against Rhaenyra, meaning she didn't bother to actually form loving relationships with her sons outside of projecting Otto's ambitions onto them.

She was ALWAYS a hypocrite. Her fucking Cole, even though yes it was annoying as fuck - is pretty in line with her characterisation. She literally let Larys wank to her feet in exchange for his loyalty/ her having more subliminal power. Remember how...she ostensibly gave Larys the green light to like murder Ser Harwin... and then attempt to murder Mysaria... yea...

Her idea of virtue was literally only ever used to maintain the idea of superiority over Rhaenyra/a justification to usurp the throne. It was never a real value of hers. It makes sense she'd abandon it when she is rendered powerless. Because it makes no difference either way to her.

Alicent may be a victim of the Patriarchy, but equally she is 100000% an abuser and an enforcer of Patriarchy. I won't elaborate. It's clear.

It also isn't out of character for her to not give a fuck about Jaehaerys either. Considering she massively projects her own trauma onto Helaena, and in general projects herself onto Helaena. She hasn't spent much time at all with the kid... like ever. And hardly even spends time with Helaena? She also like... willingly ignores Daeron.

It makes sense that Alicent probably feels little connection to Jaehaerys by virtue of the fact she seems to struggle with connecting to her sons. And Jaehaerys is an extension of Aegon and also of the crown.

Alicent has to an extent been traumatised by Targaryen men. All of which lean in to their "Targaryenness".

Helaena who, doesn't ride Dreamfyre (which annoys the fuck outta me that they made this choice). Seems to have little interest in her own House, thus is the most removed from being a Targaryen and to Alicent, is more aligned with herself.

So all in all, it makes sense why Alicent would basically be like "fuck them all but Helaena."

I think Alicent is deeply traumatised by the male dominated world. And in order to survive she had to adopt the qualities she knows men expect of women in order to maintain a level of power/control she had. Her entire life has been gaining power through the proximity of men and being used by them. She used virtue as a way to protect herself and maintain a level of power. That's why she opposes Rhaenyra, because Alicent has convinced herself that this is the reason she has cultivated her position. Because she is righteous. And Rhaenyra (whom is not righteous or virtuous) does not deserve to rule because of it.

However, once Aegon is on the throne, she realised that it was never her virtue which gave her power but her PROXIMITY TO POWERFUL MEN, WHICH DID - this entire farce collapses. She realises that the mask she wore means nothing. The entire identity she built herself around means nothing. She was never a good mother and she knows it. That's why she can turn around and abandon Aegon and Aemond. She made monsters who she can't control and she doesn't even want to. She'd rather abandon the Targaryens altogether and dissociate herself then face the fact SHE FUCKED UP. And... she legit did that throughout season 1 to... so....

Remember how Helaena said she didn't want Jaehaerys to be King? It's because even Helaena is aware of the dangers being on the throne causes. She knows her son would constantly be under threat and also living a life of despair. She just wants him to be happy because she loves him.

Alicent? On the other hand, literally hears Aegon SAY he doesn't want the crown. Literally hears how miserable he is once he has it. And basically doesn't give a fuck because her ambitions come before his wellbeing. She literally has never been a loving mother. She may have loved Aemond and Aegon deep down. But she wasn't loving. People for some reason think the two are mutually exclusive and they aren't. Abusive people can love you. But they can only love to the capacity they know how.

To Alicent, abandoning her sons is probably the most loving thing she can do. That way they can be free of her, and she can be free of them.

Think about it this way, if your sons were like... genuinely lowkey diabolical, would you stand by them without question?

If the first was a known rapist, enjoyed watching kids being beaten, treated his wife like shit, neglected his kids, spent most of his time drunk and having sex with prostitutes, tormented his younger brother etc; how positive would you feel about him?

If the second was a known maniacal edgelord who killed his own nephew, then tried to kill his brother, then also killed his cousin and then..... also lowkey committed genocide, etc; how positive would you feel about him?

Oh and they were both kinda misogynists?

In the real world, the mothers of fucked up men won't stand by their sons. Some do, but society has agreed those mothers are fucked up for being enablers.

Why do we expect Alicent to love her sons unconditionally, when she literally never did?

The problem isn't her arc, the problem is that the writers didn't actually explore the Green properly this season in order to allow us to understand Alicent. We saw so little of the Greens interacting with each other and so little of their dynamics that... in contrast to S1 Alicent, yea it does feel like they fucked up her character. But they didn't. They just sped run through her arc.

People comparing Ceresi to Alicent are greatly missing the point of Ceresi too. Whom was a raging narcissist - though yes she loved her children. She loved them because they were an extension of her and Jamie entirely. And her love for them meant she enabled Joffrey to become a fucking psychopath. Which again, is what the Patriarchy expects of women. It expects them to stand by men regardless of what they do. It expects them to be good and loyal. But Alicent is neither of those things and she never really was. Alicent is ALLOWED to be a bad mother. And she is ALLOWED to subvert our expectations of what a good mother should be. It's not anti feminist to let Alicent

I don't think it's a bad choice to have Alicent slowly start to develop reservations about the war. The only person who shouldn't of had those reservations is Rhaenyra.

The problem truly was, everything was so rushed, we didn't get the time to spend to see Alicent's arc develop properly. But all in all, like... I think people just be mad because, they are projecting their own ideals of womanhood and motherhood onto her. She is a victim, but she is also the abuser. And that's pretty much standard with the Greens. Both Aegon and Aemonds are both both victims and abusers too. That's legit what makes the Greens SOOOOO interesting.

[tessarionbestgirl]

I hate how they became so obsessed with Rhaenyra and Alicents relationship that it trumped all of Alicents other relationships. She really gave up on her kids for an old friend shes despised for 20 years

Same. The worse thing that could have happened to Alicent was her friendship with Rhaenyra.

Is so much bad writing for a relationship that is not even that compelling. And the fans justified saying is "liberation" lmao. A good writer still would be able to make layers of those feelings and make it work without making illogical and character assassination. But those layers never existed. There is not actual feelings. What is there is guilty from Alicent part because for some twisted idea the writers believe both characters can't have valid justifications for their actions.And Alicent must be punished for her trying to protect her kids because she dared in the process not suport a privilege princess.

Their queer bait rhaenicents saying this is for them. While actually is a deeper act of favoritism towards one character and the punishment of another.

All women in away or another are sacrificed in the religious altar of Rhaenyra. Specially the ones that go against her . The only two women that confront her narratively, are Alicent that has been striped away of any real agency and narratively humiliated, or Nettles that have been cut.

[unicoo]

Everyone always says “The Conquerors would’ve supported Rhaenyra” (and the “justification” are always the same too)

• “Rhaenyra’s more Targaryen than Aegon”….I mean yeah but like if Visenya & Aegon & Rhaenys would hate Aegon for being half Hightower than wouldn’t they have also hated Aemma for being half Arryn, which in turn would mean they’d also hate…Rhaenyra?

•“Visenya hated Hightowers.”…..yet she let her son marry on & try to have children with her for years….I doubt she’d give af that Aegon is half Hightower (tbh I think her & Maegor would’ve liked Aegon for scoffing at the Faith of the Seven….)

•“Rhaenyra’s the eldest & rightful heir!”…..Visenya was the eldest & yet she wasn’t Queen alone, she was Aegon’s wife the queen CONSORT. We don’t know if she fought for her birth right or not (Dragonstone) but if she did I think it would be mentioned & Maegor probably wouldn’t have taken the throne because he’d have Dragonstone.

•“She’s also a woman so Visenya wouldn’t have stood for that!”….someone I follow @silvervvings made a good point not many people bring up, but it deserves to be talked about more. Visenya sat by while Maegor tortured, raped, kidnapped, & beat at least 2 of his wives. She also didn’t stand up for Rhaena being Queen. If she gave a damn about women & inheritance she would’ve acted for her granddaughter like Alysanne did for Rhaenys. I don’t think Visenya cared about feminism, and my theory is because she was never treated like a woman. From her dad, to Aegon, to the citizens of King’s Landing, Visenya was never much of a lady in their eyes. I personally can see Visenya thinking “If I can do it, they could too” - meaning she wasn’t going to help women who weren’t “helping themselves” (once again this is my personal opinion)

•“She’s a woman so Rhaenys wouldn’t have stood for that!”…. (Another personal opinion) the way Rhaenys & Rhaenyra are described I don’t think they’d like each other 💯 I think there would be a weird sense of competition between them, rather it be their own thoughts or outside influences.

•“Aegon I wouldn’t like Aegon II because of the kind of person he is!”….y’all do realize that Aegon grew up on Dragonstone where “First Night Rights” were seen as blessing & not what they really were RAPE. Sure some women might’ve been okay with it, but not all of them. And also I don’t think Aegon cares who takes the throne as long as they are of his blood. Plus Aegon I would love seeing a boy named after him, in his crown, with his sword, on the throne he built. Aegon II also wasn’t a bad king (despite what some say) so Aegon I would have some respect, even if it was only because his ability as king.

“Alicent’s kids are only half Targaryen”…..and so was Orys, a bastard at that, possibly their fathers. I don’t think they care about the half of the blood that isn’t theirs lol. They would’ve simply married Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, & Daeron to other Valyrian’s to “purify” the blood again somewhat. But like if they did, they wouldn’t like Rhaenyra OR HER SONS either because her mother was a half blood lol & those boys are too. If this is the case then why was Visenya okay with Maegor marrying people who weren’t of their blood? Because it wasn’t that deep for them. Like do y’all think there weren’t other half blooded Targs? Do y’all just think that the Targs between the doom & conquest didn’t marry outside the family or have kids with people outside the family? Let’s be so serious….

•“They would’ve liked Rhaenyra more because she’s just better.”…..first of all that’s objective to YOUR opinion, not everyone likes Rhaenyra & as I’ve said previously I don’t think Rhaenys would’ve liked her, maybe they would’ve started off cool, but I don’t think it would’ve ended that way. Aegon, I don’t see him caring about her much tbh, she of his blood, that’s all he’d really care about. And his son had a daughter who should’ve been heir, yet there’s never any mention that Aegon backed Rhaena’s claim. Aegon was the first king & knew of Westeros’ law of sons over daughters, so if Aegon wanted to see a queen, or lady, in power why didn’t he make it so lawfully? As for Visenya, I don’t think she’d like her at all. Rhaenyra and Visenya were complete opposites, Rhaenyra was girly & spoiled, Visenya was tough & strategic. I think Visenya would dislike how Rhaenyra can’t fight for or defend herself, Visenya would likely see Rhaenyra as the “Weaker” choice, I don’t think she’d be over the moon with Aegon either though (tbh I see Visenya backing Aemond & that’s something I can talk about separately because there’s just so much to back this TO ME lol).

Maegor is where I find myself conflicted. Would he pick Rhaenyra or Aegon? He was the first person to make a girl heir, but he thought he’d have a son soon & he obviously only really cares about one women, his mother. So idk if he’d support Rhaenyra, especially because he’d related to Aegon about being the passed over son. (I too believe Maegor would support Aemond, mostly because his mother does lol)

I don’t think the Conquerors would’ve cared about Rhaenyra’s “bastards” but I also don’t believe they would’ve been okay with them inheriting anything, especially over true born Valyrian featured children, especially the sons (Aegon, Aemond, Daeron) (and before it’s said “But Orys…” Orys was rewarded for his service he didn’t just expect to be given anything. Orys started a new house & married the heir of those lands to seal his Lordship, he also didn’t “steal” the seat from any true born Targaryen kids so….

I also don’t think the Conquerors would have hated Alicent & her kids or Rhaenyra & her kids. They probably wouldn’t exactly LIKE them, but they wouldn’t hate them.

I think they’d save that hate for Viserys, which is who we all should be giving our hate to because the Dance is his fault. His children & grandchildren died because of his decisions. The realm suffered & so did his house because of his choices. Picking green or black & completely forgetting about the main villain is crazy work.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION SO IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT HIT ‘NOT INTERESTED’ 🙂👍

[horizon-verizon]

Oh, Nettles really has been cut this season and everything points towards her being cut entirely. Mostly because Condal refuses to discuss her at all in interviews while he doesn’t do that with Daeron, Maelor, or any other yet unseen book character. There’s also very, very strong evidence of Rhaena claiming Sheepstealer this season.

Ryan went out of his way to expand upon other dragonseeds such as Addam, Alyn, Hugh, and Ulf this season while Nettles is a no show.

Why give a character no development, steal her dragon, steal every detail that makes her compelling, and then randomly plop her into season 3 with an immediate romance with Daemon ?

Ryan is also doing something every different with Nettles in interviews than he did with Daeron. When people ask when Daeron will show up, he has always been consistent that Daeron existed and would be apart of the show at some point. He’s even willing to talk about Maelor who hasn’t showed up yet either. When he gets asked about Nettles, he straight up ignores the question and changes topics.

I agree, Nettles doesn't seem to be real in HotD. Which, you know, tells us something abt how some people don't understand Nettles' narrative importance both in the controversy over Rhaenyra--whether or not she sought to arrest her merely to allay her own paranoia over the Dragonseeds after Ulf and Hugh's Betrayals/Tumbleton, or whether she merely sought to question her, or whether she truly thought Nettles was a witch who seduced Daemon as Septon Eustace claims--OR in her paralleling & reaffirming Daenerys Stormborn. Rhaena can't occupy that role, at all.

Rhaena's Daemon's trueborn daughter, has been a part for Rhaenyra's household and family for years already (trust is already there), was waiting on Morning to hatch, and was never with Daemon at Maidenpool but at the Vale. So what will induce Daemon to meet Aemond-Vhagar sooner rather than later?

They already co-opted so much from the supposedly "Mad" Daenerys for Rhaenyra and the greens. Misogynoir is baked into this project, and no, that Rhaena's own unique storyline is tweaked the way it seems it's going, it's still misogynoir for her as well: POST #1 & POST#2.

......................................................................

*EDIT* (7/5/24)

A Later Anon Had This to Say:

So... none of the eggs Rhaena leaves with are Morning. They actually confirmed they're Dany's three eggs and a blue one for Viserys. So if they truly do combine Rhaena with Nettles, how tf are they going to pull that off without it being crazy stupid or misogynistic? The council's whole justification was "she has no ties to our cause, we don't know her, and we don't know if she's been working with the Betrayers the whole time. If one more rider defects to the Greens it's over." None of those apply to Rhaena. So what, instead of the council pushing for strategic reasons, Rhaenyra's going to turn into a ranting raving evil stepmother that the men try to reason with and everyone can laugh about how she's worse than Alicent? Or will it be another "misunderstanding" in which case, why would Daemon ever believe she would order it? Does this mean that Rhaena will have a MASSIVE dragon? If she flees Rhaenyra specifically, why would Aegon risk killing Rhaenyra and bringing Rhaena out of hiding? Why would the war not immediately be over the moment Rhaenyra and Sunfyre die and Rhaena has the last huge dragon? The whole point of the dance is that targaryens and their women were left vulnerable. How is that still true if instead of a hatchling, she has a dragon big enough that she and Caraxes were seen as enough to take down Vhagar? Big enough for her and Baela to say, "fuck you. We're Aegon's regents."

[androgynealienfemme]

"The main justification for invalidating butch-femme is that its an imitation of heterosexual roles and, therefore, not a genuine lesbian model. One is tempted to react by saying "So what?" but the charge encompasses more than betrayal of an assumed fixed and "true" lesbian culture. Implicit in the accusation is the denial of cultural agency to lesbians, of the ability to shape and reshape symbols into new meanings of identification. Plagiarism, as the adage goes, is basic to all culture.

In the real of cultural identity, that some of the markers of a minority culture's boundaries originate in an oppressing culture is neither unusual nor particularly significant. For instance, in the United States certain kind of bead- and ribbon work are immediately recogniziable as specific to Native American cultures, wherein they serve artistic and ceremonial functions. Yet beads, trinkets, ribbons, and even certain "indian" blanket patterns were brought by Europeans, who traded them as cheap goods for land. No one argues that Indians out to give up beadwork or blanket weaving, thus ridding themselves of the oppressors symbols, because those things took on a radically different cultural meaning in the hands of Native Americans. Or consider Yiddish, one of the jewish languages. Although Yiddish is written in Hebrew characters and has its own idioms and nuances, its vocabulary is predominantly German. Those who speak German can understand Yiddish. Genocidal Germanic anti-Semitism dates back to at least the eleventh century. Yet East European Jews spoke "the oppressors language," developing in it a distinctive literary and theatrical tradition. Why is it so inconceivable that lesbians could take elements of heterosexual sex roles and remake them?

*

It is June 1987, and I am sitting in a workshop on "Lesbians and Gender Roles" at the annual National Women's Studies Conference. It is one of surprisingly few workshops on lesbian issues, particularly since, at a plenary session two mornings later, two thirds of the conference attendees will stand up as lesbians. Meanwhile, in this workshop the first speaker is spending half an hour on what she calls "Feminism 101," a description of heterosexual sex roles. Her point in doing this, she says, is to remind us of the origin of roles, "which are called butch and femme when lesbians engage in them." She tells us the purpose of her talk will be to prove, from her own experience, that "these roles are not fulfilling" for lesbians. She tells us that the second speaker will use lesbian novels from the 1950s to demonstrate the same thesis. And, indeed, the second speaker has a small stack of 1950s "pulp paperbacks" with her, many of them the titles that, when I discovered them in the mind-1970s, resonated for me in a way that the feminist books published by Daughters and Diana Press did not.

I consider for several minutes. I'm well versed in lesbian literature, particularly in the fifties novels, and don't doubt my ability to adequately argue an opposing view with the second presenter. I am curious to see if she will use the publisher-imposed "unhappy ending" to prove that roles make for misery. I also decide I'm willing to offer my own experience to challenge the first presenters conclusions- though I'd much rather sit with her over coffee and talk. She is in her midforties and, although she claims to have renounced it, still looks butch. Even if she speaks of roles negatively, she has been there and I want to hear her story. Then I look around me. Everyone is under thirty. There are a few vaguely butch-looking women present who'd very likely consider themselves to be as androgynous as everyone else, and not a single, even remotely femme-looking women besides myself. I recall Alice Walker's advice to "never be the only one in the room." Quietly, I get up and walk out. I go to no other lesbian presentations at the conference."

“Recollecting History, Renaming Lives: Femme Stigma and the feminist seventies and eighties" by Lyndall MacCowan, The Persistent Desire, (edited by Joan Nestle) (1992)

[nrilliree]

https://www.tumblr.com/blissfulphilospher/748378340909531136/so-i-dont-know-why-i-am-posting-this-but-i-had?source=share

Reading this was quite amusing because the more you read, the more you realize that this person doesn't really like book! Rhaenyra, but rather the version they had in their head, which ironically aligns closely with the idea that most people who hate and vilify her have.

Show! Rhaenyra has plenty of writing flaws, but book! Rhaenyra isn't exactly what that person described in their post. Book! Rhaenyra is more than just an ambitious and ruthless woman.

Furthermore, are you telling me that you like "evil" women and can't even tolerate a angry teenager who has lost her mother, has to watch her father build a new family, and witness people using her new brother's birthday to promote him as the heir and disrespect her? Are you telling me that her not wanting to be at that birthday is being mean to Aegon, even though she hasn't said or done anything against him? Unless that person considers calling Aegon "the son of Alicent Hightower" an insult... Am I supposed to believe that you like evil and ruthless women when you're even using the word "spoiled" as something against her, and you consider her not wanting to be at her brother's birthday to be mean to him, when Cersei, a character you supposedly like, has ordered the killing of children?

I won't really say anything about this post because I'm blocked by the user. I didn't even know I had so many of these blocks 😂

I feel like it's often like "Rhaenyra in the TV series is so boring 🙄 Aegon should be king because Rhanenyra in the TV series is so boring and nothing like the book version!", but when Rhaenyra does anything to do with the book or when we use the argument from the book in a conversation, it turns out that the book's Rhaenyra is not a good character either. Some people try to justify their sympathy for Aegon in this way, some pretend that they are not misogynists, and some show that they are "neutral". Yes, there are many people who prefer the book to the series, I am one of them, but it doesn't work like that and what I mean here is not just sympathy, but just such a strange justification.

[everythingvolturi]

Felix Volturi Character Analysis - Part 1: An intelligent soldier plagued by insecurity

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Compensating for a deeply rooted insecurity:

Unlike most of the Volturi guards, Felix does not possess a ‘gift’. He is instead kept around for his combat and battle techniques. In a coven that rewards powerful and unique supernatural gifts, and appears to be hierarchical with cloak colours prominently displaying everyone’s ranking, this would not be a comfortable position to be in. 

I do not think Felix is easy to replace, hence why he is still a high-ranking member; to survive this long in the Volturi he must have demonstrated exceptional skills. However, he is replaceable because it is possible to overpower and supersede him through training and hardwork. Without a supernatural power like most other guard members, he will constantly need to fight for his position and prove his worth. 

“If there had been one better, the Volturi would have traded up. Aro didn’t surround himself with second best.” (Breaking Dawn).

We know at least one other permanent member who relies on their battle skills for a position in the Volturi (Santiago), and I do think Aro actively cultivates a competitive culture amongst these combat vampires in order to incentivise them to work harder and keep them on their toes. 

A way to regain power and control:

Consequently, it makes sense for Felix to seek power elsewhere to regain his self-worth. In this case, it manifests in the form of a flirtatious persona, and an almost ‘impulsive’ lust for bloodshed. 

1- Flirting: Felix consistently adopts a promiscuous and flirty act. We see him flirting with Gianna in New Moon, with Bella at the end of Eclipse, and during the confrontation in Breaking Dawn. 

“As Felix passed the desk, he winked at Gianna, and she giggled.” (New Moon) “Felix looked up. He let his hood fall back slightly so that I could see him wink at me and smile.” (Eclipse) “Felix chuckled. “You look good. Immortality suits you……” “Felix winked.” (Breaking Dawn).

I do not think he is genuinely attracted to them - he would happily murder them…Instead, he flirts because he can. It enables him to regain a sense of control, and with his otherworldly vampire beauty, most human women would reciprocate. For a vampire in his position, this constant validation would be flattering.

2- Fighting: Felix craves violence, and when appropriate, he actively provokes opponents to initiate a fight.  

[Edward]: "Then I'm afraid that I'll be unable to accept Aro's invitation, Demetri." "That's just fine," Felix purred. (New Moon)

This makes sense because combat is an area he excels at. It is his way of proving his worth to the Volturi, and again, to exercise control over his opponents.

Underestimated Intelligence: 

However, although his actions might fuel his ego, Felix is not blindly impulsive, and behind all his actions there is always a greater purpose for the benefit of the Volturi. 

He only provokes when it serves a purpose, and when he’s fully in control: 

In the alleyway confrontation in New Moon, his violent threats serve as a part of his and Demetri’s ‘good cop, bad cop’ psychological tactic. 

Later in the book, his provocation of Edward occurred deep within the Volturi layer, in the presence of Alec and Jane. Any rashness on Edward's part would not only be futile, but would also give the Volturi more justifications to prosecute them, if Aro wishes. Luckily, Alice also recognises this. 

“Edward only smiled, his expression contemptuous. Then he froze. ‘Dibs,’ Felix called casually from behind. Edward turned, a low snarl building deep in his chest. Felix smiled—his hand was raised, palm up; he curled his fingers twice, inviting Edward forward. Alice touched Edward's arm. "Patience," she cautioned him.” (New Moon)

In Eclipse, he ceased all his teasing when confronted with Cullen's strength against the newborn army. This is a situation that went against his expectations, and with only five Volturi members present, he knew better than to irrationally provoke anyone.

“Eighteen, including this one,” Carlisle answered. Jane’s eyes widened, and she looked at the fire again, seeming to reassess the size of it. Felix and the other shadow exchanged a longer glance. (Eclipse)

He is always professional and alert: 

He was one of the three vampires Aro chose to accompany him to meet with the Cullens during the confrontation/battle. Indeed, his professionalism really did shine through.

“Hello again, Bella.” He grinned cockily while still tracking Jacob’s every twitch with his peripheral vision. 

“The brawny ones, Felix and the others like him, focused their suddenly hopeful eyes on me. They had not been sure of what my shield repelled, but it was clear now that it would not stop a physical attack” (Breaking Dawn)

This brief glimpse into Felix in action highlights why the Volturi keeps him around. He is an observant and professional soldier who could simultaneously distract their opponents while keeping his own focus. He is always on high-alert, which is a stark contrast to his impetuous and unconcerned persona. He is also able to think strategically and adjust battle plans immediately. 

Felix purposely creates this illusion of an irrational muscle who relies on his physical prowess to trick opponents into underestimating him. This is an effective tactic, as Felix was conveniently forgotten about by the Cullens and their allies when everyone was devising their battle plans in Breaking Dawn. In reality, he is much more strategic and complex. After all, he was one of the few remaining survivors from the battle-that-didn't-happen.

[blue-mint-winter]

Who spread the rumours against Rhaenyra?

During Rhaenyra's time on the Iron Throne she was subjected to a barrage of malicious and slanderous rumours that turned the smallfolk against her and led them to riot which resulted in the storming of the Dragonpit, the death of dragons and her son Joffrey, and at last Rhaenyra fleeing the capital. The person behind these rumours is uncertain.

The first of the slanderous rumours was the one about Maelor:

Though no announcement of the boy’s death was made, word of his demise nonetheless spread throughout the city. And soon another tale was told as well, one that claimed Queen Rhaenyra had the prince’s head delivered to his mother, Queen Helaena, in a chamberpot. Though the story had no truth in it, soon it was on every pair of lips in King’s Landing. Mushroom puts this down as the Clubfoot’s work. “A man who gathers whispers can spread them just as well.”

The blame for the rumour is laid on Larys Strong, however his whereabouts at that time are unknown, which was mentioned two separate times.

Upon seeing that resistance was hopeless, the Dowager Queen Alicent emerged from Maegor’s Holdfast with her father, Ser Otto Hightower; Ser Tyland Lannister; and Lord Jasper Wylde the Ironrod (Lord Larys Strong was not with them. The master of whisperers had somehow contrived to disappear). Larys Strong the Clubfoot, the most enigmatic and cunning member of the green council, had vanished.

If Larys vanished, how could he be behind the rumours? Certainly, he seems as a likely candidate, but how can a wanted man with a clubfoot not be spotted by anyone in the city, especially if he was forced to interact with people to spread rumours? I think anyone who reported him would be richly rewarded by Rhaenyra. Many clients of establishments where the rumours were spoken about (inns, brothels, potshops etc.) would be motivated by money to turn Larys in.

The second of the rumours was the one about Brothel Queens:

Here again Mushroom differs. The dwarf would have us believe that Rhaenyra ordered her stepmother’s tongue torn out at once, rather than merely threatening this. It was only a word from Lady Misery that stayed her hand, the fool insists; the White Worm proposed another, crueler punishment. King Aegon’s wife and mother were taken in chains to a certain brothel, and there sold to any man who wished to have his pleasure of them.  [...] Though the lusts of men and the cruelty of women can never be gainsaid, we put no credence in Mushroom here. That such a tale was told in the wine sinks and pot shops of King’s Landing cannot be doubted, but it may be that its provenance was later, when King Aegon II was seeking justification for the cruelty of his own acts.

The most ruinous rumour was the one about Rhaenyra ordering Helaena's murder:

Maesters may argue about the truth of such assertions…but on that fateful night, a darker tale was being told in the streets and alleys of King’s Landing, in inns and brothels and pot shops, even holy septs. Queen Helaena had been murdered, the whispers went, as her sons had been before her. Prince Daeron and his dragons would soon be at the gates, and with them the end of Rhaenyra’s reign. The old queen was determined that her young half-sister should not live to revel in her downfall, so she had sent Ser Luthor Largent to seize Helaena with his huge rough hands and fling her from the window onto the spikes below.

Munkun believes the originator of this rumour was Shepherd, but it completely doesn't fit with Shepherd's rhetoric. He was arguing against both Rhaenyra and Aegon II because he hated dragons above all. Helaena was just another dragonrider to him. On the other hand, Mushroom blames Larys for the rumour again:

The latter, Mushroom would have us believe. A slander so vile could only have been the work of Larys Strong, the dwarf asserts…for the Clubfoot had never left King’s Landing (as would soon be revealed), but only slipped into its shadows, from whence he continued to plot and whisper.

Larys reemerged from hiding during the Moon of the 3 Kings:

King Aegon’s master of whisperers, Larys Strong the Clubfoot, fared much better. The Lord of Harrenhal emerged intact from wherever he had been hiding. Like a man risen from the grave, he came striding through the halls of the Red Keep as if he had never left them, to be greeted warmly by Ser Perkin the Flea and take a place of honor at the side of his new “king.”

Maybe he really never left the Red Keep? It would then explain why he wasn't found in the city. There are hidden passages and places under the Red Keep where Larys could have bunkered down. According to Orwyle, Larys used them to help Aegon II and his children escape from King's Landing.

It can't be proved or disproved that Larys was the one behind the rumours, however there's another, even more likely candidate. Mushroom made a good point that the one who gathers whispers can spread them just as well. And during Rhaenyra's reign that person was Mysaria.

Even the White Worm came to court; the Lysene harlot Mysaria emerged from the shadows to take up residence in the Red Keep. Though never officially seated with the queen’s small council, the woman now known as Lady Misery became the mistress of whisperers in all but name, with eyes and ears in every brothel, alehouse, and pot shop in King’s Landing, and in the halls and bedchambers of the mighty as well. 

Larys was in hiding, meanwhile Mysaria was actively working as a master of whisperers and could freely move around the city without any suspicion. She had access to the goings-on in Rhaenyra's court, which is how she knew about Maelor's death. Despite her influence over what was said in brothels, potshops and other establishments, she did nothing to stop the rumours against Rhaenyra, especially the one about ordering Helaena's murder. On the other hand, Mysaria is a person linked with Helaena's death as according to septon Eustace she drove Helaena to suicide by revealing the details of Maelor's death. According to Mushroom, Mysaria also proposed the idea of Brothel Queens to Rhaenyra.

Mysaria was capable of using rumours as weapons against specific people. She did it to turn Rhaenyra against Nettles, who the queen ordered to be killed.

I already made a theory that Mysaria's goal was to become a dragon queen by Daemon's side so she acted to get rid of her competition, the 2 dragon riding women - Helaena and Nettles. The third one was obviously Daemon's actual wife, Rhaenyra, who Mysaria had no personal loyalty for. Spreading malicious rumours about her to turn the smallfolk against her fits Mysaria's goal and MO. Mysaria had the means to do it as well. It's important that despite the council persuading Rhaenyra to leave the city, Mysaria stayed in the Red Keep. She expected it to be more beneficial to her.

The wording itself suggests that Mysaria was the one behind the rumours that caused the riots.

The rioting began amidst the alleys and wynds of Flea Bottom, as men and women poured from the wine sinks, rat pits, and pot shops by the hundreds, angry, drunken, and afraid. From there the rioters spread throughout the city, shouting for justice for the dead princes and their murdered mother. 

The riots were started by people coming out of pot shops and other establishments that were supposed to be Mysaria's domain as the master of whisperers. Instead of stopping the rumours or creating different ones to draw attention away from those against Rhaenyra, it's more likely that Mysaria spread the malicious rumours in those places to start the riots and drive Rhaenyra out of the city.

Additionally, Mysaria in her capacity as master of whisperers never did anything that actually helped Rhaenyra. Instead, by using rumours she framed both Addam and Nettles as betrayers, which was untrue and deprived Rhaenyra of two loyal dragonriders as well as Corlys, maester Gerardys, the Velaryon fleet, lord Mooton and arguably even Daemon. By this one confirmed action Mysaria significantly weakened Rhaenyra by turning her against her staunchest allies who then had no choice but to rebel. In a sense, Mysaria did a lot more for the Greens than she ever did for Rhaenyra. There was not a single instance mentioned of Mysaria ever giving Rhaenyra useful or accurate information, not even any warnings about the unrest in the city.

On the other hand, Larys was better known for obtaining information through torture. He was pro-Green overtly as a member of green council, however he took many covert actions to help the Blacks, like being unable to torture anything useful out of Blood for 13 days or leaking Aemond's war plans to Daemon or plotting with Corlys against Aegon II. Other than Mushroom's speculation, there isn't any evidence in the text that would link the rumours with Larys.

There are other possibilities, like Larys and Mysaria working together - him spreading the rumours and her not stopping them. However, it seems unlikely as Mysaria was whipped and died on the orders of ser Perkin who was working with Larys.

The matter of the person behind the rumours was left vague on purpose, but based on the above analysis of the text, Mysaria is the most likely perpetrator.

[navree]

okay, i don't mean to bring up drama (i really don't want to 😓😓😓) but since you're one of the few non-crazy hotd-adjacent blogs i follow, i gotta ask...where did the whole #teamfeminism thing come from?

You're too sweet, thank you <3

It's basically what I call Team Black fans, because their whole justification for feeling morally superior is that they support Rhaenyra, the female claimant in the Dance. And yes, Rhaenyra's usurpation is steeped in misogyny, it is predicated on that favoritism towards male-dominated primogeniture in Westeros and the disbelief in the ability of a woman to rule at all, let alone her specifically, that's undeniable and a big part of the story as a whole and her arc specifically in the show. But it's hard for me to view fans supporting Rhaenyra for fictional queen as an inherently feminist act when that apparently also means absolutely no appreciation for any other female characters (they despise Alicent for having the audacity to be a forced child bride, and they clearly don't care about Laena at all) and uncritical support for Daemon the Rogue Literal Pedophile. And it's certainly not very Feminist to take your issues with fictional characters and start harassing actual real women, calling Olivia horrible names not just in general but also to her face, making fun of Phia Saban's looks under the guise of mocking Helaena (another female character they dislike because she's not Rhaenyra), being so nasty about the child actress playing Jaehaera that she had to be recast when her mom pulled her from production, saying vile shit about Sara Hess because you don't approve of her creative decisions, saying that Olivia was having an affair with Ryan Condal to get Alicent more screentime, and in general being incredibly nasty towards female Team Green/Alicent fans (and my personal favorite, implying that queer fans of Olivia Cooke aren't actually queer and just being performative, because what's more feminist than denying women's sexualities just to seem cool on Twitter dot com?). Like, pardon me but your feminism isn't really feminism, it's a performative activism where you claim that, because you support one female fictional character's claim to a fictional throne, you're a feminist and then proceed to be incredibly anti-feminist and misogynistic in your actual actions in your actual life against actual women.

So it's mostly just an irony/mockery thing from me, given that members of Team Feminism seem to be the most anti-feminist and in general anti-woman people in this entire family, except for when they decide they want Rhaenyra to win and say they like two character traits of her's (cuz it's not like they see Rhaenyra as a full character either, but shrug dot emoji).

[jyndor]

here's something I need people to understand about the hypocrisy of alicent or crispy ass cole, as well as conservative and/or fundie repressed people in general - hypocrisy is not something they give a flying fuck about.

it never has been- its always rules for thee not me, always always always. whenever they don't abide by the ridiculous rules that they hold others to (and I do mean Others - those in some sort of out group) they don't see it as the same as the people they judge. they justify ALL of their actions, and often those justifications for their own rule breaking is fairly reasonable (since their rules are usually bullshit, of course it does make sense for most people to not be able to hold to them).

but see we, people who have been Othered by these institutions like alicent's definitely-not-catholicism, see the hypocrisy clear as day because we already have been victimized by the rules that people like alicent conditionally follow.

this is how patriarchy harms us all - alicent isn't able to live her best queer life and have lots of passionate sapphic sex with the hottest women in the realm because of how she has been raised to serve at the altar of patriarchy.

it is easy for me to have immense sympathy for a character like alicent hightower, a girl whose father basically forced into child marriage with his old man friend in order to gain political power and influence. even if she is jealous of her girlfriend's sexual liberation* (which alicent clearly both reviles and craves) and ultimately falls further into a religious conservatism that I am never gonna be down with, as a queer myself who has only ever been harmed by that christian conservative bullshit.

anyway at the same time, I see that abused girl become a woman with real power because of her refusal to break a system that has done nothing but harm her. because that system ultimately serves her in many ways too.

this goes for rhaenyra, the liberal feminist hillary to alicent's conservative christian phyllis. rhaenyra ultimately doesn't have a liberatory bone in her body if it isn't about her own rights to exist as she is in a patriarchal world and reap the benefits of being at the top of that hierarchy. the closest any noble person in this canon gets to an actual liberatory political theory of power is daenerys (which... lmao - it's still based in her belief in a divine birthright, even if she would want to use that birthright to get as close to being a class traitor as one gets in asoiaf).

and so while she is a compelling and sympathetic character (thanks to olivia, and yes emily as well) she would be my enemy irl, make no mistake about it. (so would rhaenyra ofc I'm not here for girl boss feminism).

and because she's my enemy I know how she works. for example, these freaks irl are always pointing fingers at queer or just regular old non-fundie people trying to live because they've got a bad translation of a religious text that they likely haven't even read, a text which would also condemn these same people for any sexual act that isn't marital PIV. like a blow job. lmao do you think for one second conservative christian/fundie/fundie-adjacent women aren't giving their husbands head??? okay nancy 'throat goat' reagan lol

they genuinely do not see it as the same thing, and they don't care if it's close to the same because They are righteous and saved and justified in their kinky shit. (that is more of a protestant grace over works thing; alicent's faith of the seven is clearly more of the catholic sort, especially given that westeros is akin to pre-reformation europe but I mean its not a one to one comparison).

hypocrisy is not a good weapon to use against anyone. conservative white christians in the us won't hear about trump fucking a sex worker while his wife is pregnant and then giving her hush money and suddenly abandon ship. sure, plenty will lie to themselves about it being fake news but plenty of others legitimately will never give a fuck about that, even if it seems counter to their whole pretense of morality.

they do not give a shit. alicent hightower likely sees herself as a newly widowed woman who did her time and can fuck her hot guard (his being a misogynistic incel likely is not a problem for her because his inceldom is based in a morality she believes in herself - that his oath was broken by some nasty snake bitch seducing him or whatever, but of course when he and alicent fuck it is moral and good sex, no excuse me it is probably ~making love lmfao) until it's time to say a few hail marys, and she's forgiven! except ofc she's not, but it's fine! because she did everything the right way, right???

the hypocrisy is not going to bother her because she can justify her behavior. however the reason these fundies feel the need to justify shit to themselves is because deep down they know they're not actually following the standards they have set for themselves. there must be a good reason for them to break those standards. those standards that must be followed no matter what. it's irrational and brain breaking.

the hypocrisy won't bother a person like that, but the cognitive dissonance? that's another story altogether. that will bring shame and disgust and self-loathing, which may result in them re-evaluating their ideology but also may just make them double down on that ideology.

getting caught up in the team sports of it all seems very contrary to the thesis of this story and frankly all of asoiaf - that this patriarchal hierarchical divine right of kings ass absolute monarchy system is so oppressive and harmful that even those who benefit from it the most are also certain to fall victim to it in time. and that one team may be marginally or even greatly better than another, but ultimately these teams still exist to keep a fundamentally cruel and inhumane system in place.

anyway rhaenyra stans stop saying alicent is a hypocrite for getting her nut with crincel. alicent stans, watch yourselves because some of you seem to forget that alicent is basically a sympathetic phyllis schlafly.

*obligatory rhaenyra was a victim in many ways; her exploration of her sexuality with crispy ass cole was technically consensual (ofc it was messy all around, even for crispy due to the power dynamics, but ultimately she was a teen girl who had literally just been groomed by her uncle, and he was a grown man so... come on folks)

[jessicanjpa]

Twilight Advent Calendar 2023 Event

🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲

Dec. 9 - What is it like for Carlisle to work as a doctor now versus back when he was alone?

-He always used to volunteer to work all the holidays. Not anymore! He still has to work them half the time since he keeps being The New Guy, though.

-He used to hate going home. Like, really dread it. Haunting empty, silent houses is depressing enough, but after the bustle of hospital work (especially when he sticks to emergency) it was even more silent and depressing. More than once he took on two full-time jobs far enough apart to avoid discovery.

Now home is a place he wants to get back to. He never knows what will be waiting for him there: Edward playing piano, or maybe the stop-and-start cacophony when he composes? A crash on the stairs because Jasper just kicked Emmett a little too hard in the hallway? A shriek from Alice because someone merely thought about wearing corduroys with a t-shirt? Someone bickering, laughing, growling? Metallica and the scent of motor oil blasting from the garage? Bad news, good news? Esme's off-key humming as she doodles in the margins of her blueprints? Life is full now, and the house is a home.

- He is still downright giddy when he gets to talk about his family at work, especially when he can tell the truth. "Oh yes, my daughter just started at Yale this fall too—we're so proud! I wonder if your daughter knows her?" "You would get along with my wife; she always says it's not Christmas until we have a simmering pot of oranges and cloves and cinnamon" "Ohhhhh yes" *indulgent eye roll* "teenagers do keep you on your toes don't they?" "My son once had an injury similar to yours..."

-Likewise, he adores having people at home to tell his work stories to. It was especially nice once he didn't have to work so hard to mentally censor the bloody imagery in front of newborn Edward. I hope that when he was alone, he kept up some written correspondence with old work "friends," but it wasn't the same.

-Carlisle's need for atonement is still a driving force in his career: atonement for the lives that his creations have taken, atonement for his shame re: whatever part he had played in his father's persecutions, atonement for vampirekind in general... those forces aren't going anywhere. But now he also feels a deep sense of justification when he saves humans that remind him of his family—especially when he saves them from the very things he failed to save his family from. Teenage boys with dangerous respiratory illnesses, young women who have been abused in the streets, etc.

You can find all of the #twilightadvent23 prompts here!

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[theeholytrinity]

The double standards against Rhaenyra and her children in this fandom never fail to astound me. Any argument in Rhaenyra’s defense is always met with the rebuttal that "we shouldn't be applying a modern lense" to Westeros society which is a reflection of the real-world Medieval Era, but the deflection is disingenuous when the people who make this same rebuttal never apply this logic to their own favorite characters. We're not allowed to point out the fact that the reason for the Greens usurping Rhaenyra is based on a misogynistic ideologies, we're not allowed to say that shaming Rhaenyra for having sex with her partners of choice and having children, even if they’re out of wedlock, with someone she actually likes, isn't a bad thing in spite of the stigma that's attached to those actions in Westerosi society, we're not allowed to say that the social norm of passing up a woman in the line of succession in favor of a man is wrong, even if that's the norm in Westeros society.

But oh, when it comes to Alicent? We must look at this from a modern point of view, to further victimize her. Alicent is a child bride (by our standards), Alicent faced marital rape (by our standards), and therefore her pain is justification for the pain she inflicts on Rhaenyra and why she should be allowed to usurp Rhaenyra’s throne for her rapist son. But, if we were to apply the same logic that green stans apply to Rhaenyra, the logic that we should not be applying a modern lense to these characters because "everyone is wrong and bad", then Alicent was in fact not a child bride nor did she face marital rape or anything else that simply wasn't normal for Westeros. Viserys started courting her when was 15, then six months afterward announced his plans to marry her. By then, she would have been 16 or nearing 16, which in Westerosi society is the age of majority/consent. The real world equivalent would the age of consent laws in the USA which states that the legal age of consent is 18. Therefore by Westerosi standards, Alicent was in fact not a child bride. Nor was she a victim of marital rape, the concept does not exist in Westeros. There hasn't been any feminist movements or feminist thought to even  introduce the concept of marital rape, so how can she be a victim of something that Westeros doesn't even know exist? Viserys was simply claiming his rights as her husband, and no one in Westeros would call him a rapist for that. Furthermore, Alicent’s circumstances are not unique to her. Almost every Westerosi lady is married off at the age of 16 (sometimes younger) and often times to a man far older then her with the expectation of producing heirs. Just look at Lysa Tully.

So you see, if we applied the same logic to Alicent that is applied to Rhaenyra, then neither women is a victim of patriarchy and therefore their actions are not justified because everyone one is bad and you're not supposed to pick sides!!! But you see, you are supposed to apply a modern lense to this story. When you see Alicent married off at age 16 to a man old enough to her father, you're supposed to feel uneasy. When you see her popping out heirs left and right at such a young age you're supposed to feel uneasy. When you see Viserys claiming his rights, regardless of her own desires, you're supposed to feel uneasy. Even though all of those things are normalized in Westeros, you're not supposed to find those things acceptable, you're supposed to apply a modern lense to the situation and be rightfully disgusted! So why then can't this same logic be applied to Rhaenyra?

We are supposed to feel enraged by the misogyny Rhaenyra faces, we're supposed to feel enraged by how her children are spoken of, we're supposed to feel enraged when she's usurped simply for being a woman. She herself is not a feminist, the concept doesn't exist in Westeros, but her story in itself is a feminist one, about a woman defying patriarchal standards/status quo and fighting for what is hers by right against all odds. When she is called a bitch and a whore, when she is detested and slandered for being defiant and daring to fight for what is hers, you are not supposed to side with the people using misogynistic ideologies and language against her. You're supposed to apply a modern lense and understand that it's wrong for those characters to do so, even if it's normalized in Westeros. Because not everything that's normalized is morally good.

"Well Rhaenyra did bad things", Alicent isn't a saint either, but for some reason you all show her grace and understand that her actions and the reasoning behind those actions are nuanced, so again why can't the same logic be applied to Rhaenyra?

[la-pheacienne]

so something that I've been chewing on is how the dynamics of the Dance would have changed of Rhaenyra had been a son. Rhaenyrion, if you will (rhaenys/Balerion) I kinda realized that this concept is sort of explored already, with Daeron and Daemon down the line with the Blackfyres.

The thing is is that Rhaenyrion would still have quite a bit of beef with Alicent, tho there probably would be way more issues with Viserys insisting on remarrying the one chick that wants her own son to sit on the throne, so this would probably end up with some similarities to harem dramas (wives of the father against other sons that aren't theirs.) I suspect that in this au, Rhaenyrion would be far more assertive due to being an assured crown prince, (except daeron was an assured crown prince and still had to fight for his position), except Alicent would probably still make this boys life as miserable as she can

I'm guessing that in this au Rhaenyrion is married to Laena Valaryon automatically, but what would really be insane (because realistically they would have true born kids, but I also personally want the bastard allegations to happen because grrm didn't put that there for free) is if Rhaenyrion straight up fucking adopts kids as he likes. I mean realistically he can also have his own bastards and keep them as his own, maybe Laena doesn't fucking like him cause she's gay or cuckholds him with Daemons twins Baela and Rhaena, which would really warp the hell out of the family blood tree.

I do like the adoption thing too much because one, Romans, two, adoption isnt something explored in asoiaf. To the point that it doesn't seem like an option. It's either let the kid live with you unofficially or legalize them as your heir if their your bastard. Also if they wore adopted this would throw a lot of fuel to the greens because how could Rhaenyrion adopt his sons of vague origins and make one Viserys's gods-damned heir to the throne? Against decency, this is.

( I am aware that that option is borderline too crazy. Realistically, if we ignore the most realistic option, Rhaenyrion would just bring his bastard sons home and say they're his and Laena's ignore the logistics fuck you Im the crown prince this is my son his name is Jacaerys Targaryen.)

Probably in this au that I am cooking all over your asks Aegon and Viserys would be Daemon's bastards, graciously fostered by Rhaenyrion and Laena on dragon stone. How the fuck does Daemon's sons get the throne after Aegon II, I have no idea, but as I pick through the mush of this au, the only justification i got is that grrm's "the laws of inheritance were vague at best and when push came to shove people dp what ever they fucking want regardless." (Misquoted but basically what he said). Unless Damon has two shotgun weddings that were scandalous but legit enough in the short term. Especially since Rhaenyrion would probably designate Aegon as his heir when All the other boys are gone.

Pretty much the major thing that Rhaenyrion and Rhaenyra would share is how they make their own family. It's just that Rhaenyrion would be seen as much more insane then Rhaenyra would be. Rhaenyrion be making "promise me, Rhae" level promises to Laena over protecting her daughters and the mother of his sons and Daemon's sons.

The major thing however, in this au is that the greens would be super major usurpers all the way, since they don't have the women can't ascend the iron throne argument, and their main argument is just, Rhaenyrion has done scandal after scandal jow can we have that guy as our king? And said scandals are just, guy loves his kids and gives the greens middle fingers every time he sees them. Which would just highlight the greed of the greens big time.

Unless we go so far as to make Rhaenyrion Bisexual and unapologetic about it. Which adds more fuel to the fire since the Greens are pro Faith of the Seven.

In the case of the war probably the greens would be significantly more on the offensive early on. Like you thought Aemond was bad in canon hed probably try to torch the Erie in addition to the RiverLands.

Actually I just realized that since Laena fucking dies (don't want her to but she dies) the Driftmark episode would be so much fucking worse. Especially because...yeah this is a Rhaenyrion/Laena/Deamon poly situation Vaemond would be downright suicidal to be making comments on her funeral speech when both her gods-damned lovers who are Princes are right fucking there. And then you also have the fact that Aemond claims Vhagar, who belonged to Rhaenyrion's Just Buried Wife, the Night After Said Wife's Funeral, and then proceeds to Insult the Crown Princes Sons and Attack Them To the Point Of Said sons Needing Self Defense...Aemond got some serious balls in this au.

Also Alicent demanding Lucerys's eye and then rushing to Attack Lucerys and Rhaenryion would be fucking more insane then in the show, (considering that the show doesn't fucking get into a fraction of the realistic implications of that). Just saying that realistically, someone is going to die in this au at this moment. And it can't be Laenor since he's cool and is also the current heir. Unless of course, Viserys forbids punshment for either Aemond or Alicent which furthers the divide.

I think that if Rhaenyra was male he would not have been experiencing quite the level of casual disrespect as an adult. that happens in canon tho I did just write out why people would find him distasteful, after all, people both like and were greatly annoyed by Roberts Baratheon's whoring and drinking and they still payed him respect.

In summary of the previous shit, which I made up as I went along, in an au where Rhaenyra was male, Viserys still married Alicent, Alicent bullies and tears down Rhaenyrion as much as possible before said prince comes to a banquet with an all black suit and starts living it up by developing a martial rivalry with Criston Cole which pisses him off and being mentored by Daemon and vibing with the common people via the taverns and brothels, and hanging out with Harwin Strong and is living his best bi life is a more chill prince of the city with his beloved dragon Syrax and ends up marrying Laena Valaryon except she really really likes Daemon too and Rhaenyrion is like, damn, did I ever mentioned that i have, a very, very close friend, and she kinda asked me to promise her a major promise, Like a Promise Me, Ned type promise. And Laena's like, who the fuck is Ned. Because she has twins and Rhaenyrion is like, I gave you two freebies can I have two freebies psyche it's three because Laenor loved the last one so much.

Obviously Corlys and Rhaenys hate this sht so much but at least Laenor is alive and Laenor and Laena both want Lucerys and Baela and and Rhaenys to stay and be recognized in the family and anyone of them can be Laenor's heir and Rhaenyrion is saying me and Laena talked about it and maybe (since Alicent would rather marry a sweet girl off to fucking Aegon than my beautiful boy Jaceaerys) perhaps, Baela will be queen? Anyway a major family discussion goes down behind closed doors and Corlys just lives the rest of his life wondering why the fuck his daughter and son like fucking Targaryens so fucking much (hypocrite)

And Rhaenyrion and Laena and Daemon have a pretty good polycule going down in dragonstone and when Daemon comes back with his own "legitimate" -wink wink nudge nudge cue Otto about to have an aneurysm and Alicent getting ready to spread bitch ass rumours again - sons Rhaenyrion is like Yay more babies let me cuddle them Daemon it's my castle let me cuddle them.

And then Laena dies and Driftmark goes down and someone was 2000% going to fucking die except Viserys decided to be a long at the worst possible moment and so the Blacks go back to Dragonstone and the Greens back to Kingslanding.

And then Vaemond decides to be a little bitch (I don't know if in this au he'd straight up murder Laenor who had already desingated Rhaena and Lucerys as his heirs anyway or if hed just whine to the iron throne that this whole choosing your own heir is fucking stupid and is going against traditional law but Daemon, or Rhaenyrion, kill his ass when he calls Rhaenryions sons bastards.

The last supper thing is significantly more fucking awkward because no way in fucking hell would Alicent imply that Rhaenyrion would follow Viserys.

The main question here is how Visenya fits in this, because one, men are also capable of feeling pain over miscarriages, and also, to really temper Rhaenyrions grief and rage over the usurpers. However the only way this would happen is if he had a paramour living on dragon stone, and if he heard the news, lashed out, and was the main reason said hypothetical paramour goes into labor and stillbirth. And in typical fashion, blames the greens for what is technically his fault. But it also keeps him focused of the loss of a child that he very clearly wanted, while Daemon is doing other things, like securing Dragonstone and checking the children and grieving. But yeah he blames the greens saying that they murdered his daughter.

I think I just constructed a guy that just, really really loves his children a bit more unabashedly then Rhaenyra does. He experiences more privileges than Rhaenyra does on canon but also is like, insanely progressive as fuck for his story because, the only thing that matters is the monarch choosing their heir and Rhaenyrion took that concept to eleven. Which pissed off a lot of people but still.

There would be just a touch, a smidge, of major ass tension because people wonder is Rhaenyrion or Daemon the new king before Rhaenyrion is like oh come off it and breaks the tension. Daemon crowns his nephew obviously.

Anyway the dance goes down as it does and Rhaenyrion is remembered as that insane prince that passed off his bastards as legitimate.

Okay realistically if Rhaenyrion was real he'd probably be way smarter and a bit more capable and probably would be a year king and the dance may have taken place earlier than it did. It would be debatable if he had children or not in this au since the conflict would take place sooner tho without a doubt he is being married to Laena and it is possible that he may live longer and that Aegon II is mostly remembered as Aegon the Usurper than II. Especially because Rhaenyrion is totally going to be somewhat of a warrior if he was a guy. So he would be on the battlefield . And he'd probably have more tension with Daemon (the measuring dicks posturing kind, not the sexy kind) but i think Daemon would stick by his nephew as he did with his niece.

Also there's a good chance that Rhaenyrion would have been mentored and supported by Daemon way more because no doubt that Alicent would still bully and antagonize the shit out of Rhaenyrion but at least Rhaenyrion would have more support and been further away from Alicent then Rhaenyra got to be.

The dance potentially not changing even if Rhaenyra was Rhaenyrion just proves that the greens and everyone who supported them did for self serving ends and for greed. Not because of some women can't rule it's just that the hightowers wanted one of their own on the throne and that was just fucking it and the only entire point.

Basically Rhaenyrion would be more charming and active fellow than his great great great igaf great son Rhaegar.

And people would still ask yo what if that guy had gotten to be king maybe it would've been nice.

Anyway you did not fucking ask for this ask and to be honest this is the equivalent of me scribbling out my brain nonsense on the nearest scrap of scrap paper except it turned out to be your ask box. I was rereading some of your posts because I like rereading your posts sometimes and my brain started cooking and we basically squatted on your front porch to grill this idea. I would say a bigger sorry but I had a little too much fun writing this.

Oh wow that was heavy. You should write a fic.

This is my totally civil take about an AU where Rhaenyra is a man.

For the record I don't believe there would be a dance if Rhaenyra was a man, but it's not impossible. If there was a dance, it would be a much more clear cut situation than this though, because Rhaenyra being a woman and having sex makes her a morally grey character in the eyes of a big part of the audience. The greens would have zero support in the fandom had Rhaenyra been a man.