#hotd rhaena-nettles merge

[horizon-verizon]

I think people don’t realise what a nightmare Fire & Blood is to adapt compared to ASOIAF. Often, characters are named and placed in situations in order to flesh out the family trees and marriage alliances, and then many of them are left waiting around during all of the actual interesting stuff. This can’t happen in a TV show, and frankly this is (unfortunately perhaps?) the most logical thing to do with Rhaena.

Fans understandably want everything in the source material to be faithfully adapted but visual mediums are not the same as literary works. Storylines have to be consolidated and streamlined to save costs for ensemble casts and to provide faster-paced storylines that don’t bore audiences, unlike books which can take their time with a story and gradually develop their characters over hundreds of pages.

Characters like Nettles and Rhaena simply don’t work in visual medium, because both characters would just not have enough to do that would warrant investment by the audience. Combining elements of both into one character, if done right, can strengthen the overall character and subsequent story.

Besides, the jealous lover trope for Rhaenyra in the book being the source of her and Daemon’s fallout is uninspiring. Daemon being forced to choose between Rhaena and Rhaenyra is a far more compelling angle, and would provide a stronger perspective on Daemon as a whole, especially with how lacking of a father he was in S1.

Anon responds to several recent posts about the likely merging of Nettles and Rhaena of Pentos's storylines that starts HERE or HERE.

I understand that HotD might be very entertaining to some people...but implying that the writers couldn't have done better bc F&B is supposedly incoherent (when it's far from so) AND thus it is as good as any adaptation could get--thereby seemingly to admit that it's not great and then seemingly simultaneously saying that it is actually pretty good...

is not the vibe.

In all, a lot of the issues you bring up are ordinary issues with adaptations (and seem to make as excuse for these writers who point blank already said/showed they were intent on creating a totally different story with Rhaenicent replacing the original storyline) but the mess of storylines we get in HotD can't be excused by this idea of how "difficult" it is to adapt what does have pretty clear characters, events, etc. Also, good planning and foresight and integrity couldn't hurt.

A)

unlike books which can take their time with a story and gradually develop their characters over hundreds of pages.

vs

I think people don’t realise what a nightmare Fire & Blood is to adapt compared to ASOIAF. Often, characters are named and placed in situations in order to flesh out the family trees and marriage alliances, and then many of them are left waiting around during all of the actual interesting stuff.

A contradiction. So F&B is very detailed and a rich text with solid characterizations and definite events now?

B)

Characters like Nettles and Rhaena simply don’t work in visual medium, because both characters would just not have enough to do that would warrant investment by the audience. Combining elements of both into one character, if done right, can strengthen the overall character and subsequent story.

...So Gwayne Hightower, who was given a lot more material than he ever actually had...that made sense to you? Hugh the Hammer becoming a family man when he already had the Caltrops deal with Ulf the White? You can't show an increasing amount of frustration from Ulf and Hugh without trying to make us sympathize with either of them and make either underdogs? We can't follow Nettles as a young street "urchin"? We can't do the same for two separate girls, make up stories and backgrounds?! HUH?! We can't have flashbacks to Marilda of Hull and the Hull boys? No?

We did it for those irrelevant nutjobs, but not for Rhaena or Nettles? Anon, please. Address the misgynoir or at least this major discrepancy.

Besides, the jealous lover trope for Rhaenyra in the book being the source of her and Daemon’s fallout is uninspiring. Daemon being forced to choose between Rhaena and Rhaenyra is a far more compelling angle, and would provide a stronger perspective on Daemon as a whole, especially with how lacking of a father he was in S1.

You assumed two things: that Rhaenyra believed Daemon x Nettles was real AND that I believe they happened romantically. The first one, that's more than understandable since that is the prevailing impression the fandom has had for years and a lot of people don't really like F&B for how differently it's written from ASoIaF (I think it would have been improved just with some female voices put to paper, like Daemon and Otto in Rogue Prince and some of F&B...esp Rhaenyra or her ladies and a few history-loving septas).

I even am rethinking the whole "Rhaenyra thought Nettles seduced Daemon with magic and stole him from her" bc....SEPTON EUSTACE SAYS THIS HAPPENED THIS WAY, after he already describes Mysaria a "witch" who manipulates Rhaenyra as if casting a spell. The guy who speculated that she and Daemon were sleeping together as Rhaenyra gorged herself while a war was going on. Like the true religious sexist that he is.

Aside from that, I still think that Nettles being revealed as being Daemon's bio daughter is FAR more compelling AND sensical than Rhaenyra willing to kill her husband's daughter who she partially raised...or was supposed to and not treat as if she serves her like some servant....which, again, is very misogynoirist. For some reason, people keep ignoring this particular point I'm making...

Anyway, once again, like I said HERE about Rhaena at the Vale, you could have her flourish in diplomacy and meeting certain characters who will be important later in the overall storyline...plus imagine what we could have had as how Rhaena manages to finally hatch Morning?! The process and tension--from the suggestion of those different "experiments" she tries that are all different from what she did when she was just a child--that's built up to that by some specific egg-interaction scenes...some epiphany she could have had...something to tie her into actual magic! And this is just one way you could have written Rhaena at the Vale!

I don't think you guys understand what you've lost.

C)

A lot of the weird shit that happens on the show!blacks' side in terms of why Daemon kills at Harrenhal when he canonically doesn't and why it's made out to be as if he's paid for a bad prize in winning the castle is because they have Rhaenyra acting like there isn't a war already happening whether she likes it or not (their argument back in e2). If they hadn't made the woman who was canonically "tempermental" and just as willing to assert her rights as some people Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon were more a reality-denying doormat as she was who only fights bc he dad said stuff abt the ASoIaF prophecy instead of having any ambition for herself (in the attempt to make her more "moral" or whatever)...we wouldn't have had the mess of a storyline we got now.

Daemon's magic plotline, I'm not that angry about. More how he got there and the taking reframed as him trying to prove a point to his wife after a nonsensical argument and not being very successful in getting allies for her. And him doing so without thinking of how his leaving the way he does could impact Rhaenyra's hold even further, and for real this time (no, B&C would and canonically does nothing to dissuade anyone from supporting Rhaenyra). Rather than him "requesting" or being sent to Harrenhal, an argument there or not but likely after an actually sensical argument.

A point that he instantly invalidates by again going off without first establishing plans they are both aware of. This is war, not sitcom TV suburbia where the father leaves the house for a bit and there's low stakes for that to make sense. A much different sort of war from the Stepstones as well. All their lives are on the line, not just soldiers...which they didn't have (or as much) at the moment. And Dameon (book-wise) was not that petty as to cross into dum-dum territory.

D) Other Stuff

"compared"....not "impossible", and the way they have for several characters were very unnecessary, so...I can't agree with this sentiment that these characters are so, so difficult to have adapted as they are, esp since if you read well, you find a lot of evidence that shows who some important characters are and a few of their critical motivations. Now if you didn't don't want to do that, all the power to you. Doesn't mean that it was impossible or valueless to do so in the first place, since that is what we were supposed to do with this FICTIONAL historical document.

Often, characters are named and placed in situations in order to flesh out the family trees and marriage alliances, and then many of them are left waiting around during all of the actual interesting stuff. This can’t happen in a TV show, and frankly this is (unfortunately perhaps?) the most logical thing to do with Rhaena.

...funny you say that, since there was a lot that could have been done for Jacaerys' diplomacy arc to the Vale, then to the Manderlys, then to Cregan Stark where he stays and becomes great friends. I don't think you realize how much we lost here. Jeyne Arryn's words to Jace abt women sticking close and the reveal of her female lover; Wyman Manderly and the court that they didn't show in GoT, here is where they could have showcased the Merman's court; flashbacks to Cregan's times of getting his regent greedy uncle out so he can reclaim his own seat as his father intended as well as showing us their Jacegan(?) bromance's development. Like, this is at least 3 episodes alone!

You act like specific words, events, and actions are not told or narrated and done so with good enough detail (and reliably) in F&B for us to understand the and glean truth from fiction. As if the entire project is a haphazard collection of just names...when those marriage alliances (one of Joffrey to Desmond Manderly's youngest daughter) was made fully within the larger, variously-detailed and overlapping-storied context of the current Dance/war.

Jacaerys was not "waiting around". He went to the North to get alliances for his mother and in one of them, he meets with a Manderly and that is how he gets Manderly's promise--Joffrey's betrothal to his daughter. This is not even the most well known accomplishment Jace had in his particular mission, he'd go on to meet with two other, more famed, leaders with pretty badass moments DETAILED in the book that even could have been depicted/expanded more live.

These writers simply didn't think his diplomacy arc was important enough to expound and show in their time crunch...meanwhile, we got one-liner Gwayne Hightower speaking nonsense to Criston Cole, Alicole sex scenes, Alicent bathing as if she wants to ice her entire head to block out the world up the wazoo. And NONE of the Daemyra-Dragonstone family scenes that the time jump of last season's epi 8 came from. We're told, canonically, more about this unit than we are about Gwayne, yet here we are.

Perhaps I'm just assuming, but like I said in this post, it appears that people think the Dance portion of F&B was just the Dance...no, it started with "Heirs of the Dragon, who were Jaehaerys' children/grandkids towards the GC of 101. Which means that with as much context and history F&B actually gets into a lot of detail for a historical document, these writers had a lot of material for bringing Princess Rhaenys properly to life, for example. Even if you don't include how she wanted to go fight the Myrmen with her father Aemon while pregnant, this fact from the book should be enough to let you know what sort of person she was. Which is supplemented by her plans for how to defeat the greens in the first black council. Also, how we hear her response to Jaehaerys choosing Baelon and the lords choosing Viserys over her and her kids. And we have her protest angrily and freely how Jaehaerys was taking away her and her kid's birthrights...That's at least 3 incidents showing the true, real and solid "Rhaenys" of the orig story. It is consistent.

There was so much from Jace, Daemon, Rhaenyra-Mysaria they could have done (note how I keep talking about the blacks...bc the green characters actually have some notable plot action going on from their characterizations aside from the Alicole nonsense...not Helaena, though, but she was always meant to further Alicent and be an accessory, not her own person to these writers, so....)

Apart from that, F&B has Gyldayn castigate Rhaenyra from going to war herself...while Aegon was burnt into useless pork at Rook's Rest. You can have Rhaneyra do shit without going to war at Dragonstone with Daemon and Mysaria planning shit out as a sort of "good" change from the canon. You could even try to argue that since...

Gyldayn was looking to rebuke Rhaenyra for being a woman and going to war at all for nay inheritance like a man and thus paoint her as incompetent, that she didn't actually fall into a graceless heap and have the men around her do everything in her mental absence...

that she/Emma was simply sequestered to collect herself and work behind smaller spaces while calling this and that person to her to make plans, etc. Instead, we have her impersonate a septa and go on endangering herself thinking Alicent of all people not only would but could do anything with or without her to prevent a war that's already happening...This is called working with the original to make something "new".

...............................................................................

I've seen too many logical inconsistencies or places where they could have improved some's scenes if they had just....though ahead or read F&B more than twice in total good faith.

Deliberate giving black-specific stuff to the greens as well, which they also didn't have to do but did...willingly and BEFORE S2.

The writers, I mean. This book may have been created like a historical book...doesn't mean that we nor actual historians manage to find truths in said documents...otherwise we wouldn't know anything of certain events and wittle some more ambiguous events down to a few LIKELIEST possibilities. And we still have made pretty great movies from ambiguously told historical-legendary events (Vikings, hello?!)

I don't see this as a proper excuse.

[qyburnsghost]

Can you really imagine a royal, let alone a soft one(nothing wrong with it,that’s her power) like Rhaena, whose never had to cook her own meal, never had to hunt or even interested in hunting —slaughtering a sheep with a knife and dragging its dying, possibly screaming carcass to a dragon every morning?

Yea,me neither.

[marxism-leninism-meowism]

looking at Certain People preaching about how hotd hates women while they completely ignore rhaena's storyline bc they're mad she got merged with nettles

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

HOTD: No you can't have Nettles. Or Marilda of Hull. Or Black Aly. Or Sabitha Frey. Or Sara Snow. You can have a bit of Jeyne Arryn but only if she hates Targs now. No you can't have Jessamyn Redfort. No you can't have Sylvenna Sand-

HOTD: Baela and Rhaena may appear from time to time but don't expect them to be main characters - don't be greedy. You have two whole black women - you're lucky we didn't merge them into one.

HOTD: Rhaenyra's a lunatic now btw. Because DID YOU KNOW when a Targaryen is born the Gods flip a-

HOTD: BUT don't worry! Everyone's favourite slavers, the Triarchy, is now led by a lesbian!

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Thoughts about the supposed direction Rhaena's storyline is going in Hotd and the apparent Nettles erasure? Disappointing but... I can sort of see where they could take it? Idk... looking at grrm's posts in hindsight kinda makes me even more disappointed if he is as well (he just can't get his adaptations right atp but idk)

Well. Pre-ep7, we're still pending any Rhaena-Sheepstealer bonding, but I'm basically 😑🫠 about the rumors. (I dislike borrowing trouble, I'm not even sure how many of the rumors are true -- actually I'm pretty sure many of these supposed "leaks" are straight up lies -- and yet. Still *disgruntled meh* and *"we're all fine-everyone's fine here" dread*.) Rhaena is one of my more beloved F&B characters (it's the Sansa parallels, I can't help myself), and Nettles has been a super fave since TPATQ and TWOIAF. (Particularly TWOIAF, since the Burned Men fire-witch reveal; heck, I think my little dollmaker is still one of the few fanarts of Nettles in the mountains.)

I mean, sure, I understand that Rhaena's book storyline during the Dance, where she's offpage from basically the start of the war until nearly the end of it, socializing in the Vale and waiting for her egg to hatch, would be difficult to adapt in an action-oriented visuals-oriented television show. (Like Rhaenyra this season sure isn't just catatonically crying from Luke's death until Jace's.) And I'm glad Rhaena's getting more to do, and I'm glad it's directly addressing her feeling slighted and ignored by her family since she doesn't have a dragon. However...

I do not want Rhaena merged into one character with Nettles! I do not want Rhaena to have Sheepstealer and not her hope-for-the-future (doomed hope, and yet) baby dragon Morning, that hatched for her. Also note how pink Morning, worn as a fashion accessory, so suited Rhaena's coquette personality vs her sporty, adventurous twin sister... I mean, I've said before, I understand adaptations can be different, this still wouldn't make HOTD even close to a "loose adaptation".* But I do not want this adaptation to lose Rhaena's personality that I loved.

Or for that matter, to lose Nettles's character, and her importance to the themes and worldbuilding of ASOIAF. (See also.) And her importance to the plot -- but god knows, they're doing all sorts of things with Daemon and Rhaenyra on this show, toxic romance or what have you, who knows if once Daemon reaches his emotional breakthrough or whatever at Harrenhal this season, if they want to backslide him into a cheating plot in S3 while Daemon is again stuck in a castle for months.** Nevertheless, I'd be deeply disappointed to lose scenes like "as well as her dragon, the girl had taken to riding Daemon", or the last morning in Maidenpool scene... and um, you can't really fit Rhaena in there, or if you did, it would certainly put the lie to the ship denialists' "he just treated her like a father, platonically bathing naked together!" (Also the pretty blatant fake S3 leaks including one where Rhaenyra decides Rhaena has betrayed her... are pretty blatantly fake, sorry.)

And then there would be the frankly racist erasure of the one book black character. "Oh but the show made the Velaryons black, so it's not erasing, it's adding more!" No, sorry. (1) I was and am all for adding more racial diversity to the show and especially to Valyrians, but face it, when you take the book's secondary character Velaryons, two who get killed off early and are portrayed as lesser to the "true" Daemon/Rhaenyra marriage, and make them black, you've already done a lot of hinky damage there. (2) What, it's that hard to write three distinct black girls with very different personalities and one from an incredibly different background? I don't see Addam and Alyn getting merged. I don't see Aemond and Daeron getting merged. I don't see Hugh and Ulf getting merged. But I'm not really one to speak here, for this particular discussion I'd point you to @ride-thedragon and @venusintheblindspots-blog and @chrkrose, among others, they have many many posts on this subject in far greater detail and better argued than mine.

OK, so. I still have hope that Nettles -- even if not cast for this season (sorry y'all, that extra is an extra) -- may appear next season, and all this worry will turn out to be a tempest in a teapot. Per last report from the HOTD panel at SDCC, the rumor of Rhaena and Sheepstealer definitely doesn't happen in ep 7, though, yes, there's one episode after. And if it does happen... I'll be strongly disappointed. Deeply, deeply disappointed, and probably far more suspicious of future adaptational changes. But, for me at least, it's not a dealbreaker like GOT S5 was.*** I won't be happy at all about the storyline, but I would like to think the show will remain high quality re themes and character and all. Time will tell, though. Time will definitely tell.

As for GRRM, when his complaints seem to be "wild dragons shouldn't be in the Vale" and "the heraldry with four legs is wrong", well, I struggle to see that he's that disappointed in the adaptational changes. Believe me, I am well used to reading between the lines re GRRM and adaptations, something like the fact that he's not visiting the HOTD writers' room when he's in the UK is nothing. Catch me if at Worldcon or his Oxford lecture in August, GRRM again says that he could write a whole novel about Nettles, or if actually says something about non-Valyrian dragonriders, ok?

*I was just reading up on The Beast (2023) vs Henry James's “The Beast in the Jungle”. lol HOTD doesn't compare. Don't even think it, man.

**You know, this reminds me of how the Dance in F&B is not paced very well for individual characters, they keep going offscreen for months at a time. From shortly after Rhaenyra's crowning to the Fall of KL, Daemon just sits at Harrenhal and occasionally ventures out into the riverlands. From shortly after the Fall of KL until the Battle Above the Gods Eye, Daemon just... sits at Maidenpool and occasionally ventures out into the riverlands (with Nettles). Yeah, obviously a show would need to write more for him to do, he's a main character.

***Thank god HOTD isn't the sort of exploitative shitshow that GOT was. All y'all thinking it was a better adaptation because of your nostalgia goggles (and/or shitty memory) need to actually reread the books (especially AFFC/ADWD) and then submit yourself to the real-world misogynist and homophobic nonsense of S5-6 again, ugh.

[fckmini]

if hotd merge rhaena with nettles ill never forgive them. it'd be a DISASTER for the symbolism behind both characters, beloved in their own right. this pseudo-feminist production just couldn't stand to have more than two (rhaena and baela) black female characters at once ffs

[bohemian-nights]

It makes so frustrated and upset that so much of the hotd fandom is already rushing to claim that the it’s not racist to combine rhaena and nettles. I really want the showrunners to feel the backlash cuz maybe they might change it? But no ofc not. The bootlickers and delulus are in full force defending everything these showrunners do. Let me tell you though, if Daeron would be cut, the world would have split in half.

Sadly Nettles has never been a very popular character. Even before HOTD a lot of fans have ignored her, her characterization, her race (people only like to admit she’s Black when it’s time to replace her with someone else), her importance in the Dance, her importance to Daemon, and the broader implications of her character in the ASOIAF universe.

Shes been working an uphill battle since 2013 because she’s a Black female character in a fantasy novel.

In the ASOIAF universe she’s further marginalized because she’s a non-Valyrian lowborn orphan. She survives a war (with her dragon) where many more beloved characters perish. Whether people want to admit to it or not(most obviously don’t), she has an extremely close relationship with a desirable male character.

A relationship that gets in the way of another more popular ship (which is really the source of most of these fans “beef” with her), but the fandom's treatment of her has worsened thanks to the show's fanbase. Thus we have arrived at this point where people actively want her cut and merged with Rhaena..…who she has absolutely nothing in common with.

All I’ll say to the people who think Nettles must be cut in order to prop up Missy Anne give Rhaena “something to do” is that it really does not have to be this way.

If there is room enough to makeup characters, include every other dragonseed/secondary character and expand on their arcs, there is room enough to include the only canonical surviving dragonseed. There is room to include the only Black dragonseed.* There is room to include the only female dragonseed and the only non-Valyrian dragonseed and expand on Rhaena’s preexisting book arc.

*It doesn’t matter if Alyn and Addam are Black now or that Baela and Rhaena(who aren’t even Black, they are mixed) are Black-ish now, Nettles is the only Black book canon character and she’d still be the only non-Valyrian dragonseed.

I cannot stress this enough, even in regards to show canon, there is no good reason to cut Nettles and give her arc to Rhaena.

There can be more than a handful of “Black” characters in the show. There isn’t a limit to how many “Black” female characters they can have. Rhaena doesn’t need to be ride into battle on dragonback to be cool, interesting, and worth character exploration. Nor does Nettles need to be sacrificed in order to “give Rhaena something to do.”

Just like how Helaena and Rhaenyra, Ulf and Hugh, and Addam and Alyn all exist despite sharing the same gender and racial background, so can Nettles and Rhaena.

Y’all can’t have one set of rules for yourselves and another for us. That’s not how this will go down and y’all won’t gaslight your way out of this.

It’s no surprise though that the showrunners seem to share the fandoms sentiments. Nettles unfortunately gets in the way of the narrative (fanfiction) they are trying to tell. They don’t care if she’s axed as opposed to a character like Daeron (who shouldn’t be axed either, but he isn’t more important than Nettles) because Rhaena exists and she’s Black-ish now too.

Rhaena is seen as the “safe option” that will appease shippers while at the same time won’t have the majority of Black fans(the racial group, not the team) calling them out for their blantant misogynoir.

She doesn’t break the status quo. She doesn’t get in the way of a dry wonder bread ship. She doesn’t make Missy Anne look bad. She’s not a threat.

The amount of times Black female characters continuously get the short end of the stick and get treated like human garbage thanks to the showrunners and racist fandoms boils my blood, but you can’t point that out because then you are making it into “a race thing” and you’re being “ungrateful,” blah blah blah

Honestly unless the fandom magically stops being racist(yes it is racism if you think Nettles and Rhaena are one and the same or that Nettles isn’t needed anymore since the show has a whopping five “Black” characters), GRRM talks some sense into Ryan, or Ryan realizes the value in Nettles, don’t expect much.

I’m remaining hopeful that they aren’t stupid enough to cut her, but it’s best to just not give this show any views(that’s the one thing we have control of and the show isn’t even good so it’s not like anyone is missing anything).

[thecountesstribe]

HOTD 2X6 Review and Spoilers!!

Another slow episode. The episode dragged especially considering it's currently down to the last 3 episodes of the season.

Alicent got booted off the council, LMFAO. I don't take pleasure in seeing women suffer but older Alicent earned her shit, it's what she gets. Larys thinking he was gonna be named the hand of the Regent King LMFAO. Aemond said get your toad looking ass tf on and go call my grandfather. That was smart as much as I hate to admit it. Aegon definitely remembers his brother trying to kill him though. Larys is going to be protecting Aegon from now on because he knows that they can't control Aemond, I'm mad I gotta say something decent about him but he's actually thinking with his brain. The green council is still in a mess and divided and they know Aemond is going to be a tyrant king, hell Alicent knows and she's still somehow shocked by the monster she created like she didn't have a big part to do with him harboring his worst qualities and helping him mold into it. Delusional I tell you. The small folk are suffering already and got on their asses though, the only thing I didn't like is Helaena getting caught in the crossfire again. Another Daeron mention and did they just subtly hint at Criston being his father? Meaning Alicent was really sleeping with him before Vizzy T kicked the bucket? The writing for the show is all over the place, my God.

We were a diva down and I didn't like it one bit. WHERE TF WAS BAELA?! Like we saw her husband but where was she? Ugh. Rhaena and Joffrey sighting. They were so cute! Rhaena is still trying to convince herself she doesn't need a dragon to be important 💔 and Joff just wants his momma. Nettles looks like she's officially scrapped. I'm so pissed. They could've totally given Rhaena something else to do in the meantime, they didn't have to merge Nettles and her story together. Wtf Sara and Ryan?! This is why people say there is a Team green bias and they aren't beating those accusations. What does this mean for Rhaena hatching Morning? There were four eggs does that mean she still has a chance to do it? I'm so mad. Then again after what Dumbass and Dunderhead pulled in the final seasons of GOT why tf am I surprised!

We saw baby Stormcloud!!! I never realized how much I missed seeing baby dragons on screen. It's like having baby Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon back. My heart did a little quick thump. He was so derpy too 🥺🤣 How Aegon's supposed to get away on him is beyond me, he's literally the size of a kitten. The timeline is so messed up as well.

Daemon is still in spooky land and although I'm over it, I understand it's a culmination of all his regrets and things he wishes he could've had and done differently. We saw Vizzy T and that scene where it showed Daemon wanted to be there for him, he just didn't know how.... Man I kinda teared up. At the end of the day Daemon just wanted his brother's love and approval, he went about it in the wrong way because he's chaos personified but that's what it was always about to him. Vizzy T was his parental figure, his everything really and man 💔. Miscommunication trope strikes again. Him and Alys becoming friends even though she's the one that's tormenting him wasn't on my bingo cards. Somebody come get Caraxes outta there, I know he's bored asf. Every time we catch a glimpse of him he looks more and more over the entire thing. 🤣

One of the highpoints of the episode was Seasmoke. Dragons have personality y'hear me. More of that! Seasmoke is a whole clown 🤣🤣🤣. Why would he do Ser Steffon like that? I mean sure he got a little cocky but intentionally bending his neck for him to get on and then essentially saying “BITCH YOU THOUGHT” AND THEN BURNING THEM TO A CRISP?!! He was so funny for that 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭. He said “get y'all mid looking asses on” I already got eyes for one person and he's so real for that. You guys think he used to have dragon conversations with momma Meleys about picking their riders? We know dragons pick their riders as much as riders claim their dragons but do you think Meleys taught him if the unfortunate should ever happen make sure and pick the baddest of the bunch? We know Meleys picked Rhaenys as Rhaenys picked Meleys, that was confirmed. Meleys said Pretty Women Only and do you think she told Seasmoke to get him a pretty rider to match his aesthetic if the need ever arises? I know Laenor hatched him but Laenor was pretty asf. Seasmoke saw Addam smiling on the beach once and said “yeah I gotta have that” plus it helps that he has dreads, a pretty smile, a pretty face and looks like Corlys. He said welcome back Laenor Velaryon. Addam being Laenor's brother makes it hysterical as hell too, I'm creased LMFAO. He didn't have to chase down Addam like that but I respect it, he saw what he wanted and shooters shoot. I too would chase down Addam until he accepts my advances and affection, Seasmoke been eyeing him for awhile.

Corlys is officially the hand of the rightful Queen of the 7 kingdoms.

We got canon bisexual Rhaenyra. Although I wish she was kissing another beautiful Velaryon instead, Laena I miss you so much baby, that was for me. Her and Mysaria kissing before Jace and Baela is egregious to me though. I'm just saying why everybody locking lips before the main og star couple?Rhaenyra smacking men, 100000s across the boards. She should've been doing that sooner but better late than never I suppose. That lady is still in her resentment of her husband era. Her face when Jace said they needed Daemon 🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭 She's sick of hearing about that man. He's right btw, Rhaenyra go get him, he's out there giving our diva Simon grief. Mysaria actually helping her with PR and actually giving her great advice. I love women supporting women! Her sending food with her banners for the common folk was so politically savvy. Mysaria being one of the few that is actually coming in clutch to help her to win the war 😉. I still don't trust her though, something about this entire thing tells me it's gonna end badly for her. I'll enjoy them trauma dumping and bonding on one another before the shit hits the fan though. I know doomed Yuri when I see it. Jace and that one guard immediately knowing something is up with both of them is sending me though. She took off at the end of the episode to go confront her ex-husband's new dragon rider and Syrax about to be screaming at her dragon ex husband too apparently. 🤣🤣

Since they're essentially changing the entire plot and the leaks that I thought were written like fanfiction might actually be true could we get Jace surviving the battle of the gullet? It's not slated for this season but I'm here to spread my agenda. Since we're essentially fucking canon atp instead of in certain scenarios and all this for Bran the broken to sit the Iron Throne (I'm still fuckin disgusted and furious at that btw, fuck you D&D) could they switch that shit up? Let's come together and manifest it guys.

Until next week guys. I better see Baela, Rhaena, Jace and more dragons though. I'm here for them and them only.

And another thing, could you guys stop leaking shit. I block words and myself from certain pages and sites but y'know how stuff still slips through the cracks. Have some decorum and etiquette please!

[sukibenders]

Some in the HOTD fandom really don't care about black people or their voices, and it shows especially during conversations about the portrayal of black characters. I've been seeing an uptick mostly in regards to the possibility that Ryan Cordal may merge Rhaena's and Nettles's storylines and, while I'm not finished with the book (audiobook) nor have reached Nettles part, I don't want that to happen for a couple of reasons. However, it's very apparent the very "here, there!" energy some have when people complain about this by going "But they made the Velaryons, this great house, black! Corlys and his family, his children, and grandchildren are black, so what's the problem?" If they actually cared then they would have gathered the issue a long time ago, but instead, they play ignorant. I've stated some of the issues of HOTD's treatment of black characters in my post about Laena (+ featuring Baela, Rhaena, and even Laenor), but one really annoying thing is the belief that just making these characters black was enough. This is a very common theme that I see with some who go "Oh, we don't mind that you changed the race of this/these character(s)" but only as long as they remain in the background after that change, completely ignoring how, in the original text, said character was given more to do than what is shown after the change.

I was very excited to hear that the Velaryons would be played by black actors, especially after hearing all the things that happen in the books, but then I get little to nothing from the show in those regards. Many vital plot points for these characters have been skipped over, or rushed, or just plain ignored and yet whenever we criticize it we're met with people saying we should just be happy that we got something. That we get to be in it at all. And it's very apparent the disparities in treatment because I've seen think pieces and the praises they receive when people call out how HOTD portrays Rhaenyra, or Alicent, or Daemon and many of the other white characters (which is fine, as it makes since because there are big differences) but it's crickets or passive aggressiveness when it comes to the black and other poc characters. Sometimes they can't even have any plot of their own without it relating back to their white counterparts (eg. Laena's dragonriders death being brought back to Rhaenyra to elevate her, or her death just being used as a stepping stone to bring Daemyra onscreen). I remember seeing people being mad at Rhaena for daring to be upset at being sent away, not even bothering to see her side of things and calling her selfish and whiny because she dared to make the decision harder on Rhaenyra. Like gods forbid black and brown characters get testy because suddenly it's a problem.

Another argument I see when it comes to Nettles involvement is because, apparently, "there are already black characters in the show" as if that, not only, ignores the treatment they face but also acts as a reason as to why she can't be added to the show. Why can't there be more black characters? Why do they only have to be silver-haired or illegitimate children to be important? Like, at this point, say what you want to say out loud. And I know that some don't want her added because of how it makes Rhaenyra look (because I know she says some nasty and borderline racist things in the books) and the show has a thing for not making her, or other members of TB, morally dubious/complex, as well as splits Daemyra and, if that's the case, JUST SAY SO! Stop creating fake think pieces when you really just don't like this black character because you don't want her to take away from your favorite white incest ship, which, in HOTD, is already crashing and burning from what it seems at this point. Like Nettles and Daemon could still be a thing, maybe with some slight changes, and Rhaenyra could still be involved (because I think these three characters are connected plotwise, from what I've seen so far, so it wouldn't really make sense to split them up) by making her see the same grooming tendencies that Daemon used for her toward Nettles, maybe she gets protective if they want to follow HOTD canon. Maybe not, who knows, but in the end erasing this prevalent black character does nothing helpful to the story just gives some of these fans the ability to not see more black people in their fantasy genre.

[queenvhagar]

So is Valyrian/Targaryen blood needed to claim a dragon? I saw that everyone online was very persistent that it was, but I recently discovered Nettles and it no one knows if she has that blood

Dragons had only really been ridden by Valyrians before this point, but they'd also been gatekeeped (gatekept?) by the Valyrians through strategic marriages and careful guarding of their eggs and dragons.

(By the way, this is another reason GRRM says that his dragons don't wander and roam. They live on Dragonstone or are brought to KL, and they don't go further on their own. Otherwise, who's to say someone non-Valyrian couldn't try to claim one for their house or take their eggs? This would be immense power and people would have taken any chance they could to get that kind of power.)

Nettles' purpose in the story is to challenge Valyrian supremacy. Nettles is a character who is in contrast to the Valyrians and specifically is a foil to Rhaenyra. Where Rhaenyra has light hair, light skin, and has Valyrian features, Nettles has dark skin, dark hair, and common features. Rhaenyra is highborn royalty, daughter of the last king, and Nettles is of common birth and belongs to no known family. Rhaenyra speaks Valyrian and has Valyrian blood, but Nettles does not. And despite all these differences between the two, Nettles gained a dragon just as Rhaenyra did, except the circumstances are also contrasted. Rhaenyra had the dragonkeepers to guide her and teach her Valyrian to speak as she bonded with Syrax in the Dragonpit as a young girl. Nettles had no such guidance, instead claiming the wild Sheepstealer by bringing sheep she to his lair near Dragonstone for him to eat and slowly gaining his trust. One last point of contrast is the two characters' views on dragons. Rhaenyra sees the power of dragons as a means to win what she sees as her rightful throne and willingly unleashes them in battle against her foes to gain power, and she feels no remorse for those whose lives she's destroyed in the process. Nettles, on the other hand, was purposefully noted to have been tearful after having been made to use her dragon in battle, in contrast to the other dragonseeds who were celebrating the triumph of the battle and the destructive power of their dragons.

A side note is that this character's relationship with Daemon allowed him to challenge his own beliefs about his legacy and his loyalty to Rhaenyra, and it's because of Nettles' role in the story and decisions made by Rhaenyra and Daemon regarding Nettles that Daemon ultimately decides to disobey Rhaenyra and go to intentionally end his life in battle with Aemond.

Essentially, Nettles as a character is meant to show that you don't need Valyrian blood to ride a dragon. Some people argue she did have Valyrian blood and that she was a bastard of some Targaryen or Velaryon, maybe even of Daemon himself, but it seems clear to me in the way that she was written as a foil to Rhaenyra that she does not actually have Valyrian blood. The writers of HOTD seem to agree, as it is rumored that they will reveal Ulf as having lied about his Valyrian descent and having claimed his dragon without it (he was a little bit too forthcoming about his "Valyrian" background in that bar scene). Essentially, they are giving this aspect of a Black character's story to a white character.

Some people also think Nettles and Daemon had a father-daughter relationship as well, and it seems with the merging of Rhaena and Nettles in the show that they will generally go this route, once again taking the story of a Black character and giving it to a Valyrian character. However, in the books the two were noted to have bathed together, taken meals together, and shared a bed, so it seems unlikely that this was a fatherly relationship between the two, and especially considering Daemon's interest in young girls in the past it's not crazy to think they were together. It's not even out of the ordinary for him and Rhaenyra's relationship, as he also took Mysaria as a paramour once again in KL when Rhaenyra sat the throne. He wasn't just 100% faithful to Rhaenyra - this is the Rogue Prince we're taking about anyway. And it's the romantic and sexual nature of Daemon and Nettles' relationship that motivates Rhaenyra's hate and distrust toward her, among other basic things about her.

Cutting Nettles removes complexity from Daemon's arc and doesn't make him confront his Valyrian supremacy. It removes a key foil to Rhaenyra's character and avoids the sexism, classism, and racism she displays against Nettles when she orders her death (under guest right) based on rumors and paranoia. And above all it erases the story of the only narratively Black character, one who was non-Valyrian and lowborn, who claimed a dragon despite having no name, no family, no titles, no specific language, and no guidance. Making Rhaena claim Sheepstealer erases key parts of the Nettles story and its purpose in the narrative, and this will be to the detriment of the overall story.

[horizon-verizon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRhWhuIb0AAFl2t?format=jpg&name=900x900

I never envisaged they could give Rhaena the whole “Nettles story”, not just Sheepstealer.

I was talking to a friend the other day about Daemon’s arc this season, I believe his arc will not help him realize how he has neglected his daughters (despite loving them) and he will try to be a better father and protect Rhaena from Rhaenyra’s wrath/paranoia… which is why I believe the fallout between Daemon and Rhaenyra will happen because she’ll try to harm one of his daughters. His willingness to die will make so much sense if this happens.

This is too incredible to be true. Rhaenyra go after the stepdaughter she took in as her own daughter for 10 plus years? Yeah, no. With Nettles--a literal unknown before the Dance and who was a Dragonseed like the Betraying Ulf/Hugh--it made so much more sense for Rhaenyra and her council to blame or suspect her, even with her loyalty. Because we also know that other possible dragonriding families with their loyalties more likely to turn has been a source of anxiety for Targs since at least Jaehaerys I (Elissa Farman stealing the eggs)!

This storyline is also further proof of HotD unnecessaarily isolating Rhaenyra from every female supporter and family she does stronger bonds with canonically [pessimisticpigeonsworld's post]. And how this show has its misogynoir BAKED-BAKED in since Laena undermined for Daemyra and Rhaenicent.

But IF true. Anyone who supports this storyline is dumb. I'm very not sorry.

[fandom-blahs]

I truly believe that HOTD writers fully intended on merging Aemond and Daeron’s characters together hence, no mention of Daeron ANYWHERE in S1 with only a “MAYBBEEE Daemon is talking about Daeron when he mentioned 4 dragons :~)” but it doesn’t explain why he experienced neck breaking character shift. Bro S2 takes place after 2 weeks of S1 please show us wtf is going through his head I’m so tired of people having head canons and pretending that everyone else is experiencing Media Illiteracy TM because they don’t share their same head canon and fanon.

I really want to understand the rationale Condal had for wanting to cut out Daeron, same goes with Nettles who they appear to be giving her storyline to with Rhaena except it won’t be half is impactful because Rhaena is a Targaryen through and through AND a Velaryon so it’s like …. Ok super privileged and girl from a powerful dragon house…claims a dragon…?? It’s not the same as Nettles who forces readers to reconsider what they know about dragons and dragon riders despite her brief

Also is Rhaenyra going to kill Rhaena? Rhaenyra got paranoid over Nettles (because of Mysria lol) How’s that going to work? It’s could be interesting but Condal clearly has no teeth and consistently has defanged all the female characters and turned them into 2014’s tumblr idea of Strong Independent Female Characters TM

Did they assume the audience will get overwhelmed even though in GOT we followed way more characters and kept ping ponging between different subplots that HOTD can only dream of balancing.

[therealshelly]

I haven’t watched season 2 of House of the Dragon but I watched season 1 and have read Fire & Blood so naturally HOTD content fills up my timeline. Anyway from little clips I saw of the finale I don’t think the writers have fully committed to merging Rhaena with Nettles character yet, otherwise they would have had her take Sheepstealer already. I think they are observing the public reaction to the change and then will decide in season 3 whether to introduce Nettles or not. Similar to how they did with Daeron.

[levithestripper]

my thoughts on hotd s2 as a whole. if you disagree please keep it to yourself unless you can be civil about it.

it’s a good second season when watched in a vacuum, ignoring the book. i don’t like how they changed and merged some character’s plot lines (rhaena and nettles!!!!) from the first season and the book, but some parts of it aren’t that bad. they tanked some of team green’s characters, but it’s not a shitfest like people have been saying. depending on how s3 goes, the characters who we view as “ruined” might not be ruined when we see the full picture.

yes, some of alicent’s decisions don’t make sense and are contradictory. surprise! that’s how real people act in times of crisis, not to mention she’s in a constant state of grief. yes, aemond did a complete 180 from how he was in season 1 (this one is less defendable but i still don’t completely hate it).

i think season 2 is more interesting than season 1, but it’s not necessarily better. parts of me want to give it a 4, but i also think it wasn’t bad enough for that, considering there are a lot of episodes i liked, but had minor problems with. my rating might change when season 3 airs based on how s3 utilizes the changes s2 made to the story.

[juniorfor2]

It’s kind of insane to me that the ONLY reason that people watch HotD is because of Nettles. According to them, if Nettles is cut out, then “what’s the point of watching the show, I only watched because I wanted to see Nettles dunk on VaLyRiAn SuPrEmAcY.”

I mean, they seriously only watch a series that they KNEW would be about the Targaryens, was focused on Targaryen history and themes, with a Targaryen protagonist that spans 30 years, just for a girl that’s barely part of the book.

It’s not even confirmed that she’s non-Valyrian!!! It’s a theory made up by FANS, I’m fairly sure it isn’t even suggested by GRRM. Glydayn, Munken, and Mushroom are definitely racist, but their only theories are to disparage the idea that Nettles could be viewed as pretty or accomplished because of her skin color. Their ideas were used to suggest that Nettles was a whore, or to then backtrack to say that she was “a skinny brown girl” that oBvIoUsLy couldn’t be attractive.

Nettles is definitely important, but (at least in my opinion), her ambiguity is the most important thing about her story. How others perceive her, not just in-universe by maesters, but by the fandom is more important than her origins. How the audience allows their theories around her to be guided by the racist thoughts of maesters, all while claiming that they themselves aren’t racist, is more important her actions.

Even the HOW of people deciding whether or not Nettles was Daemon’s lover or his daughter, is more important than the actual truth of the matter.

In the actual story, Nettles really doesn’t do that much. Her main thing is being loyal and flying around with Daemon to hunt Aemond. The only conflict she (supposedly) causes is between Daemon and Rhaenyra. And while it actually is fair criticism to say that Nettles’s story only being important as black girl causing conflict between two white people is a bad plotline, people then using a person of color to alienate and insult other people of a foreign culture is not ok. People conflating GRRM’s unfortunate internalized racism (that yes, he tries to go against, but occasionally fails at) with the personalities of the characters themselves is not ok.

People need to let their ideas of Nettles go. She’s important, and she certainly should not merge with Rhaena as if black women are interchangeable, but she is not an avenue of debunking Targaryen “supremacy”. HOTD is racist, but I honestly think that the way some people are reacting is almost more racist/xenophobic itself.

[bohemian-nights]

No actually if they cut Nettles how do they not see it as racism?? Like it IS racist to merge her with Rhaena right?? Or am I going mad and overreacting? Like I genuinely don’t understand how people cannot see how off putting that is. wtf is wrong with everyone working on the show. Do they not have one ounce of sense. I’m actually so shook that they would make this decision to the point that I AM questioning myself on whether it actually is racist, but I feel it is, but I’m not Black (I am poc) so idk maybe I’ve got it wrong

From where I’m sitting their frame of thought seems to be “Hey since Rhaena is Black now, she's a woman, she isn’t a dragonrider, we’ve made her a sad shell of her book counterpart, the only ones who are worthy of character exploration are dragonriders, Nettles has a lot of haters, let’s combine her with Nettles and give her something to do and get rid of the problem.”

They can say what they like, but this decision(if true) is racially motivated because if Rhaena remained fully white or if Nettles was white or even non-Black they wouldn’t even think of cutting her or combing their characters.

The reality is that Nettles and Rhaena have very little in common and serve two completely different purposes in the narrative(penniless non-Valyrian dragonseed vs diplomat Valyrian Princess). I mean I like both girls, but they are about as far apart as two characters can get when you look at the source material. The only commonality that they share now, thanks to HOTD, is that their actors would share the same race.

Which is also why they’d be able to get away with the cutting. You’ll have some fans voice their anger, but I’ve seen some fellow Black fans(not the team the racial group) not care about Nettles being cut because Rhaena(and Baela) exist.

As long as they have some Black faces people don’t care and honestly don’t want more Black characters on the show(especially not ones that threaten the “status quo” which is another issue).

I’m still holding out hope that Nettles hasn’t been cut/combined with Rhaena because it would be doing both characters a huge disservice. Nettles is an important part of the story and Rhaena’s story is interesting and something they can expand on. Not to mention the fact that there shouldn’t be a limit to how many Black characters and specifically “Black” female characters your show has…