#ALSO CHIME IN WHEN OTHER PPL ARE TALKING..... i feel like SO MANY ND people are often complaining abt ppl not wanting to talk to them

[fagnumopus]

I wanna start by clarifying that there are a lot of circumstances in which like... the room is not right, the vibe is not right, the people are shitty, your story isn't interesting or related to the vibes, your story is going for too long, etc etc... so like yes there ARE moments in which this won't work, and you do just kinda have to figure that out with experience... BUT, that being said, there are ways to demand attention without coming off as entitled or bitchy. I urge y'all to look at Drag Queens and the whole culture of being loud and obnoxious and taking up space while still being SO goddamn charismatic. Saying stuff like, "HOLD UP HOLD UP y'all listen, and after that...", interrupting an intereuptor with "girl if you DON'T let me talk" with a smile and a playful tone, continuing with a "wait cause I'm not done, here's the kicker...", stopping someone from segwaying with a random part of your story with "bitch hold the questions for the end of the class"

Ofc different crowds demand a different approach and language, but the idea is the same: you can bring the attention back to yourself in a playful tone, and it both calls out the people who aren't being socially mindful and also doesn't come off as entitled

[rainbowsky]

More on the Fan Fic issue

I have a few more asks about the issue raised the other day, some of which are long and go into detail on the 'wars' that have been happening on Twitter and AO3.

Sorry for grouping these but I wanted to put it all under a cut because these are long, and also in case people don't want to dig into these issues (which would be understandable).

Anonymous 1 asked:

"I am very strongly of the opinion that the BJYX term is still a fandom umbrella term" I agree. Mainly because Bjyx is the most popular. Many antis always say bjyx, and have no idea the others. So sometimes it's easier just to say bjyx instead of explaining all three. I myself more like "who cares as long as they happy." So I enjoy Yizhan in all contexts. Many bxgs I know also like that, mostly ibxgs. I think deep down all bxgs (no matter which position they prefer) just want Yizhan to be happy

Not sure we can be so certain about that last part, Anon (I think for a lot of people GG and DD are just characters in a smutty story they have in their heads), but I agree about the term being popular regardless of the type of fans people are.

From what I can see the BJYX term seems to be used 80-90% umbrella, 10-20% dynamic in both international and c-social media (for every 10 times you see the term used, only one or two of those usages - probably less - are referring to a dynamic). This is my totally unscientific estimation, but I think even 10-20% dynamic is being generous. The number of people who are fixated on a sexual dynamic aren't nearly as large as they'd like to believe.

Anonymous 2 asked:

about the promptfests - i’ve been on twitter since early 2020 and what i’ve noticed is that this influx bjyx-only promptfests started gaining speed once lots of rational voices started leaving the fandom recently either because a) new interests have caught their attention or b) the toxicity of the popular bxg circles on twitter have become too much to handle.

gdgdbaby was usually the organizer of dynamic-inclusive events, and she’s received lots, and lots, and lots of backlash by bxg, sometimes even by accounts with thousands followers, for using bjyx as a catch-all term. and as her interest in yizhan has since waned—hopefully for reasons unrelated to fandom toxicity—many of the people who were attracted to the welcoming environment she created distanced themselves as well.

zsww/lsfy fans have become an outnumbered circle who try their best to create exclusive events to avoid the “is bjyx a catch-all term” discourse, but never seem to gain as much traction as gdgdbaby (who has a sizeable following) or those who host bjyx-only events (who also have sizeable followings).

meanwhile the dynamic war has only become more and more hostile and bjyx is clearly the more populated group… ao3 is simply a battlegrounds, if i may dramatize the situation a little for the sake of humor, and the promptfests are a reaction to this irritating t/b discourse that has made bxg twitter completely inhospitable for me…and lots of other fans too.

(i’ve also noticed a huge reinforcement as of recently where ppl will call gg laopo, a milf, an omega, etc even outside of rpf (i.e. posting pictures of him at events and saying he looks pregnant or he’s going into heat) and it’s just… uncomfortable.)

(also please note i have a biased account of all of this drama bc many of my friends were harassed over it, and anyone who disagrees with my take may feel free to interject.)

I took the liberty of adding paragraph breaks because they are pretty important for some readers, particularly ND readers like me.

It's sad to hear how fucked up everything has become, but I'm not even remotely surprised. Toxicity leads to toxicity, and the whole idea of dividing up a RP fandom by sex position was misguided from the outset - no matter why it was done or how good the intentions might have been.

And yes, like I said, these people aren't just framing things this way for fan fic. This is how they talk about IRL GGDD.

I had written a lengthy essay here about homophobia in the fandom but deleted it all. Perhaps I'll post it separately at some later point. Suffice it to say that this stuff creates a climate that's often hostile for queer people. So much of it is deeply homophobic, whether people are aware of it or not.

It's really sad to hear about gdgdbaby being mistreated in any way. Anyone who steps up and sticks their neck out to help organize and coordinate activities that benefit a broader group of people should be celebrated and supported, not run out of town by an angry mob.

I've read some of her stories and even have one or two on my rec list. And here's someone who is not only writing good works, but also supporting others to write more good works. Such a shame.

Anonymous 3 asked:

Hello Mr. RBS! I think I can chime in a bit about the fanfic topic as I’ve watched this all unravel on twitter (where a majority of authors/readers are). I apologize if this gets long but it’s been something that’s also been on my mind.

I want to preface this by saying that I’m not a fan of the distinctions of dynamics as, like you said, the supposed line between real life and fanfic is long gone, so I’m not trying to be biased against one group over another.

Short answer to the question of, “is this retaliation?” : I do believe it is. (From here onwards I’ll be using bjyx as the dynamic term just for the ease of simplicity.) To understand why, I’ll have to explain with a bit of background info. On twitter, I’d say that there’s a quite large divide between bjyx and zsww/lsfy. That itself isn’t really a problem because people are free to like what they like and associate with whoever.

However there is a big problem where bjyx people are not just bjyx but also anti-zsww/lsfy. To the point where I’ve seen people say that they feel physically ill when they accidentally read zsww. I don’t think this type of behavior should exist in any dynamic bc in the end GGDD are real people with a real relationship behind this content and it’s just a gross fetishization at that point.

With all this happening, zsww/lsfy people have gotten more outspoken on how GG is often portrayed in those types of scenarios, mainly the over-feminization of him, bc it’s not just done in the context of fanfic but regular discussion of GGDD at this point. This tension between the dynamics kind of boiled over when the pregnant xz fest was announced, as you can take a guess at how that went over with zsww/lsfy people. lol.

But around that same time, another zsww/lsfy event was announced (I’m not sure if it’s the one anon was talking about) but the creator of the event suddenly got a ton of backlash for excluding bjyx, with the reasoning that bjyx is technically a part of lsfy. But the event was done to highlight zsww/lsfy (as all specific events are) bc the community and content for these dynamics are much less than bjyx.

Which is how we come back to the starting point of, is all this recent bjyx stuff retaliatory. I believe so bc the events (preg fest, dark event) are very specific prompts that target exactly what zsww/lsfy people have been outspoken against.

As to the point anon made about trying to drown out the tags, keep in mind that zsww/lsfy content is very minimal compared to bjyx and has only just recently started to gain more traction. I think most people would love to just peacefully exist in their own circles but I don’t see this problem between dynamics disappearing anytime soon.

Like I said with the above Anon, I've added paragraph breaks for ND readers.

What a mess.

I have absolutely nothing useful to say here about the fandom on AO3 and how it's managed by community members, but I do think it's unfortunate that people choose to be war-like rather than make space for diverse voices, and I think it's a real shame that some people have been essentially run out of the fandom because of this garbage.

Thanks for giving some context for how/why the major shift in tone of fan fic lately. I had no idea any of this was going on.

I urge people to work hard to give space for all voices and perspectives, and not just the ones they favor. I'd also urge people to reflect on how their thoughts, behavior and actions in the fandom might affect queer people in the fandom.

As always, we have no control over what other people do, say or think. All we have any control over is how we respond to what other people do, say or think. Hopefully we'll chose the path of peace and try to avoid fan wars or fights that only ruin the experience for everyone.

I guess one thing I'd ask any of the Anons who have written me about this issue - or anyone who has thoughts about it - is, what can we as readers/fans who care about diversity of voices and perspectives do to support that here and on AO3, without getting involved in any kind of war?

[tuiyla]

Hi,

So I'm not invested in Klaine but I have found some comments here and there on how heteronormativity played a role in their relationship dynamic. Some things like: making Kurt conveniently more fragile in order to make Blaine protect him, give him the traditionally female roles in some situations and Blaine the male one.

And I think is interesting because it's so ambiguous and I kind of can see both sides. We know Glee broke stereotypes at the time by making Kurt have traditionally feminine interests (I think it's totally unfair to dismiss that as him being a stereotypical gay) but he shouldn't be the one in the "passive" role, if that makes sense. But was it a problem of the show or in universe? Because they seemed to be self aware of this potential perception at times and they did varied this dynamic - which made ppl start to see Blaine as stereotypical in later seasons, funny enough.

Thoughts?

Hey!

I'm blanking on examples of what you're saying, especially the fragility-protection thing but maybe others more well-versed in the Klaine story can chime in? Please, really do feel free to. I am however so down to talk about in and out of universe perspectives and how gender roles and dynamics affect even - or particularly - the queer relationships. So down!

Because they seemed to be self aware of this potential perception at times and they did varied this dynamic - which made ppl start to see Blaine as stereotypical in later seasons, funny enough.

Could you please elaborate on this? Again I'm blanking on examples and I'm not that well-informed on fan perceptions, to be honest. Most of what I know about how the fans view these kinds of things is based on reddit and I don't know how representative that viewpoint was of fandom as a whole.

But just to say in this first round of the discussion, I have many, many thoughts on how Kurt's femininity and him being perceived as a stereotypical gay guy is handled in the fandom. I have a draft for an essay all about this but god, when will it write itself? Long story short, I find it infuriating when people call him a "walking gay stereotype" and fail to a) contextualize his story in the atmosphere of 2009/the early 2010s and b) realize that part of representations goal is to be able to have all kinds of queer identities on screen. So even if Kurt does start out as a bit of an exaggeration because of early Glee's satirical nature, you're so right that it's unfair, frankly just bonkers to dismiss him because of those ~stereotypical~ traits. A lot of it boils down to effeminophobia and this more general fear of playing into stereotypes which, phew, this is why this is a bigger topic lol I could go on and on about this.

I'm digressing too much, the point about Kurt is that his femininity or traits that are traditionally perceived as feminine are good, actually. But to your point about Klaine, I can sort of see how people would say that about their dynamic and apply gender roles/heterenormativity. I can't think of loads of examples but there are some where the two were split into "girls and boys" categories and Kurt fell into the former. And am I mistaken, or there are a fair few instances in season 3 where Blaine is one of the boys (The Rain in Spain comes to mind) where Kurt is absent for one reason or another? I think Glee established Kurt as someone who feels more comfortable with the girls early on (and again this is its own topic) but then it also just, sort of by default, had Blaine hang with the guys in ~bro~ scenes and ND boys performances. And there is something to be explored there in regards to their relationship and how heteronormativity applies, in a sense that oh, this binary is established, but I think for the most part it's just Glee doing its thing and not thinking too deeply about it.

The beauty of queer stories is that they're inherently transgressive so Klaine is never going to fit into a heteronormative lens, but I think you are right in that it's interesting to explore how it still affects them because of the society we live in. And like you say, both in-universe and out. Again I can't actually think of examples when Kurt was in that more passive, traditionally feminine role and Blaine as the more masculine one but I think if we were to call it a problem, it'd be an out of universe one. I don't think Kurt and Blaine ever felt like they were inadvertently adhering to gender roles, like, it wasn't like Kurt took on a more passive role so he can be saved and Blaine a more active one so he can be a knight in shining blazer.

And that reminds me, the only example that really comes to mind is of course the very beginning with Blaine encouraging Kurt and helping with the Karofsky situation. But I don't think that situation is particularly gendered like this and Blaine's way of helping Kurt is far from being the toxic masculinity bs we usually get from other Glee boys. That's not to say gender dynamics aren't present and aren't worth exploring, but if what you're saying Anon is that the fandom thinks they fall into heteronormative gender roles... I disagree. I think their dynamic is refreshingly queer in that it doesn't fit neatly into that but it's certainly telling when people try to make it do that. And when Glee defaults to things like Blaine being one of the guys, of course.

Wow this is a right mess but I hope I could articulate some of my thoughts and please, you or others do continue this discussion. Always good to be critical of how heteronormativity impacts stories and specifically queer stories, both in how they're made and how they're interpreted.