#ALL FOR BYLER ENDGAME! don’t get me wrong

[hellinhawkins]

honestly it’s probably the sharing clothes theory, or *some* of the facial expressions

“Aw Mike looks so sad after Will yelled at him :(“ Lucas did too, everyone would be upset after their best friend yelled at them- that’s not the byler proof, it’s what comes after (the rain fight in this example, specifically)

“Mike was so sad whenever Will was hugging him!!!!”: yes, he absolutely was! however: so was everyone else, they were upset too, that’s not really byler evidence. once again, it’s what comes after (the hug with Karen, the voiceover with Hopper’s letter, etc, and even those aren’t extremely relevant, we have better evidence than that)

mike’s facial expression during the van scene IS important. they’re not all a reach, that’s not what I’m saying, but some of them are just excluding the rest of the party to find the byler in it all when Lucas or Dustin or El or Max have the exact same look on their face that Mike does.

and also the hearts in their eyes during their scenes together is a bit ridiculous to me, I love the idea but I think it’s a bit too far 😭

I love reading the evidence posts but the over analyzing goes wild sometimes guys

Question for hard-core Byler shippers!!

What would you guys consider as "reaching" when it comes to Byler proof? Because a lot of it is quite obvious but there are some people who make every content drop about Byler in some way. So I was just wondering, in general, what do y'all consider as reaching?

(FYI, I am TEAM BYLER ALL THE WAY, I'm just curious because I've seen some discourse over this on TikTok but feel more comfortable asking Bylers on here, y'all are less crazy lol)

[frozenfrogz]

I’m on my hands and knees praying that byler gets murray’d and I know they will. So this is how I think it’ll go. Murray goes back to his house or bunker or whatever and the party and everyone else needs to tell him what’s going on. They can’t contact him so they need to go in person. (Idk why they can’t contact him but let a girl dream) They decide on sending Will and Mike to go because Will can explain the best to Murray because he can also feel Vecna/One/Henry and blah blah blah whatever. (And Mike is with him because why would he not be?) They get there Mike will ring the doorbell and Murray will say look at the camera. Mike will look at the doorbell and Will will look at the camera. (Like Johnathan and Nancy expect we all know it would be the Wheeler this time looking at the doorbell) They sit down tell him about it and Murray starts Murraying. He tells Mike that Mike and Els relationship is toxic and Mike doesn’t love El, he loves the idea of her. (Just like how it went for Johnathan and Nancy) After all that, Mike will be pacing in a room at night complaining to Will about what Murray said saying it wasn’t true and that it’s ridiculous he said it. Then, Will asks if Murray was right and if Mike actually loves El and not just the idea of her. Mike is at a loss for words and just stares at Will mouth open in shock at the question. Will then will continue and say the after Murray talked to them both he talked to Will separately saying he knows he loves Mike. Will tells Mike Murray was right and he does love him. There will be a moment of silence then Mike will sit next to Will on the bed. They stare into each others eyes then have a soft sweet kiss and because I don’t want them doing what Johnathan and Nancy did cause why would I they just cuddle the rest of the night.

I don’t exactly want the whole confession to be like this because I eat up the idea of them fighting then it becomes emotional and they confess. I still think they will be getting Murray’d but they will confess later on. Mike will just realize his feelings truly then. If the Murraying does go like Johnathan and Nancy’s and they confess by the end of it I think this is how it would go.

[kiirotoao]

I can’t stop talking about Byler fighting. I truly can’t. Because it’s the greatest evidence for me that they’re endgame if not also incredibly compatible.

Their arguments do not ring with an air of “get away from me.” They’re not telling each other, “you’re my enemy.” They sound more like “what’s wrong? Talk to me,” and, “you’re my best friend. I want to keep what we have.” And what’s wilder yet is that they don’t lack in understanding with each other. They understand each other so well that one of them has to retreat.

This is what happens when you become so overwhelmed that you have to step away from the emotion - and would a truly hateful fight end like this? Look, the answer is partly yes, but when you then look at how these two come back together, there’s an active pursuit, a turning back - specifically from Mike both times - where repentance is sought after. And that’s where we veer away from hatred and into love.

Love does this. Love fights and hits right where it hurts and sometimes goes way too far, but then in the end, you don’t pull away. You don’t just leave it or come back angry and want to stake your claim, you think about what’s been done and grow from it. And I think that Mike’s apology in s4e4 was the single greatest moment of growth for him as a character. As was Will’s acceptance of his apology and trying to apologize, too.

I think that where the general audience get mixed up is that Mike and Will’s fights end on a sour note. They always look like they get cut short, they’re obviously talking about El, oh, they’re clearly trying to get away from each other and can’t finish their thoughts.

But you can’t just stop there. You can’t deny that these emotions are reserved for each other alone. When you analyze their fights and really see what they’re talking about - “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls,” “well, we used to be best friends!” - it’s not that difficult to see they’re emotional over each other.

At the heart of it, when you care about something, when you love it. You get emotional. If you didn’t love it, if it meant nothing to you, you wouldn’t react. Mike and Will react to each other.

It’s not hard to imagine them continuing to fight and learning more about each other. Facing more of what hurts. I agree that they get cut short, and I think that one jab too deep may reveal something incredibly important to them. But we just don’t get to see it in Mike’s garage nor at the Rink-o-Mania, and I think that that’s wholly intentional and possibly reserved for season 5. And from there, it’s not hard to see their emotions turn into something more, too. Because at the end of the day, they’re passionate about their relationship.

All this is to say, I’m really excited for them to dig deeper next season. Maybe it’s a fight, maybe it’s a confession, maybe it’s both. And just like how their fights don’t truly end in one leaving the other but coming back together later on, their stories aren’t over yet.

[allieslobster]

I posted my opinion on the whole mike monologue so I wanted to also rant about this.

Why? WHY!!! WHYYY WHAT IS THE POINT?! No, but seriously like what is the point of this love triangle? I don’t understand the point in this conflict if it isn’t going to be resolved in a way where the audience goes “ohhh okay now i understand.”

And no, no I will not accept the theory that Will is being used to uplift mike and eleven’s relationship because how is that fair? Yeah, that’s super smart to use the gay character to uplift a straight relationship despite expressing Will is madly in love with Mike. They could have gone such a different route in expressing Will’s queerness like showing really rely on his family for support, meeting a love interest in California, or not needing a love interest and just working on accepting who he is.

But, they chose to again and again SHOW will longing over Mike. Just emphasizing the love triangle, every shot of Mike and El consisted of Will being in the background, or watching them but they always really highlighted Will’s presence. Why? Why all of this if the season five resolution to this whole love triangle is just going to be Mike saying he doesn’t feel the same but will always support Will and then continues to be with El despite it constantly being shown that they really just don’t understand each other.

I completely understand all relationships have conflicts, and despite me believing that even if byler wasn’t a thing I still wouldn’t ship mileven, a part of me also believes that if Mileven was set up differently I would support it more. Because yeah, they can argue and that’s normal but I constantly see people side with El and I want to give her a hug, too. BUT, let’s keep in mind that mike also feels unloved in this relationship.

Eleven doesn’t come to Mike for anything deeper than just superficial connection, she RAN away from Mike at rink o mania. Mike doesn’t come to El for anything deeper because why would he? He told her he was trying to understand, and that he’s been bullied and she dismissed that. It’s unfair to the both of them, and we know Mike has it in him to apologize and be understanding because that’s what he does for Will all of the time when he immediately realizes his wrongs and apologizes for it instead of blaming him. And Will does the same, always reassuring him.

I don’t get why people think it’s so crazy to ship byler, there was literally a whole scene of them in the van just expressing themselves and communicating even if Will wasn’t being honest. Will was sacrificing something for Mike, trying to uplift him and I think in season 5 when or if mike finds out he was lying, it’s going to spark a huge conversation.

There’s a reason this was tweeted.

This just goes hand in hand with the notion that season five is going to be will and mike centric all mixed in with the paranormal. Where Will and Mike’s connection is what saves them in the end just like it did in season two. BYLER ENDGAME!!!

[twoelectrichearts]

I watched the entire walkthrough of the Stranger Things VR game. I obviously saw so many posts about the Byler content we got from it. I wanted to see the M*leven content as well though because I’m trying to understand what their shippers see in it. I was expecting to see some M*leven moments, like them interacting together and stuff, especially in Eleven’s chapter, but. there. isn’t. any. Did I miss a scene of them together? The only scene is where Henry is trying to taunt Mike and get in his head by insinuating that losing El and wondering what could’ve been is what he fears most but it doesn’t work. Henry doesn’t know what Mike’s afraid of and asks Will. Hmm… wonder what his fear is. Anywaaaaays… El and Will each have chapters. Mike doesn’t. There’s Byler moments in Will’s chapter. There’s no M*leven moments in El’s. It’s shown that Mike saves Will from Henry. It shows how incredibly important Mike is to Will and how much Mike means to him. It does that in El’s chapter as well. Not with Mike though, with Max. Who does Will need? Mike. Who does El need? Max.

I feel crazy because like where is the M*leven moments?? If season 5 is anything like this and I’m meant to root for M*leven over Byler then I’m just?? I don’t even know. I’m really trying to understand. I’m so confused. I feel like an idiot because I’m not getting it. I don’t see it in the show. I don’t see it in this game. My other favorite ship is Shawn and Angela from Boy Meets World. Yes, a straight ship. No M*leven shipper can accuse me of not liking M*leven because it’s a straight ship and just liking Byler because it’s a mlm ship. That’s not it. It’s because they just make sense to me. The way they are with each other and how deeply they care for one another is beautiful. It’s beyond friendship from Will’s side, and it seems to be beyond friendship from Mike’s side based on what I’ve seen. Could I be wrong? Of course. All I know is that if the writers want me to root for M*leven, they’re doing such a bad job. I can’t get there with them. There are so many incredible straight ships in shows and movies. Heck, you have Jopper, Jancy, and Lumax in Stranger Things being some great examples. M*leven is just not one of them. Byler is so well written and would be such an important, groundbreaking endgame ship. But sure, let’s have M*leven, a badly written straight ship, be endgame instead. Especially about a show for the outcasts, misfits, marginalized, etc. That would be the cherry on top for a show like this.

[nerdflayer]

This is my opinion on why I believe the GA doesn’t see Byler.

Before I begin, I just want to say I’ve been a Byler fan since Season 1. Season 2 cemented my feelings about them. Season 3 crushed my soul. And season 4 at first watch made me feel pessimistic but eventually optimistic. As a gay boy myself I can’t help but see the whole show through Will eyes (he is me) and can’t help but fall in love with Mike. I mean he did so much for Will in the beginning, how could you not love Mike for that.

The relationship between the boys really does take a turn for the worse coming off S2 into S3 because Mikes character kind of does a 180 in terms of Bylers relationship.

Anyway. Talking about S4, we see A LOT of the CA plot line from Wills perspective. And I think this is key to people not seeing Byler. Wills feelings are made very clear. He’s depressed, traumatized, he doesn’t fit in, he is well aware of his homosexuality which brings stress and suffering and the tremendous disappointment that he has in Mikes character, yet he can’t help but love regardless. With that said, Wills POV is bleak, and coming off the back of S3 it’s easier and, I would say necessary, for his character to believe that Mike doesn’t love him. The pain of letting yourself believe they do love you only to be rejected, is very hurtful. And I don’t think that boy can handle more pain so it’s safer for him to deny the hope. Will even says “I’m not going to fall in love.”

Mikes actions also play into this. Will does not see Mikes love for him. He can’t hug him, is dismissive, he argues and blames Will at Rink O Mania, he wrote to El but didn’t seam to call Will, makes the whole trip about El, isn’t attentive to Will at all, and even when Mike apologizes for obsessing over El- every one of their conversations is still about her. Again this is Wills POV. I will say Mike does give him hints and mix messages for romantics feelings but like I said, how is Will suppose to trust? Is Will just reading into the flirting because he wants it so badly? It needs to be direct otherwise Will and the GA won’t see it or believe it.

Obviously there are a lot of hints for Byler, and I believe 100% it will happen. I’m choosing to trust the hope even though Will isn’t able to.

My point is I think Wills painful POV cannot be underestimated even if straight viewers dont like Will you can’t deny how powerful it is. Will literally helped Mike say I love you to El because he doesn’t have hope for himself. I think straight viewers use his hopeless as evidence for why Mike and El will end up together. It’s interesting that you hate Will but Will plays a role in convincing you of Milevens endgame. What they don’t understand, other than all the Byler evidence, is that Will is wrong! Mike does have romantic feelings for him and Mike will get there! Because Mike doesn’t need to find himself he needs to return to the person he’s always been. He showed us who he is and it’s the person he was in S1 & S2 and we see it when he’s with Will!

[glisten-inthedark]

I broke this into 2 asks because it’s so dang long lol

(Part 1)

Tbh I think the thing that recently really sold me on M/El not being endgame, even if Byler also isn’t endgame (but with more of a chance of being endgame) is the painting & Will’s speech

The writers have to address it in season five. Like that’s straight up non negotiable from writing perspective. Frankly, it would just be bad writing if they don’t bring the painting up in season five because neither Mike nor Eleven know the truth. El has no idea that Will lied about the painting being from her and she doesn’t even know that the painting Will was working on was for Mike. Mike has no idea that Will lied about the painting being commissioned by El and that the words that he said were his, not El’s. They can’t leave this unresolved in season five! It would not make any sense!

Plus, Mike and El need to have a resolving discussion about where they stand since they ended s4 not speaking to each other beyond a couple words. We the audience have that resolution. It’s not something that can happen offscreen, even if they do breakup offscreen prior to the start of s5 we eventually need them to sit down and resolve their relationship for the audience’s sake.

So, what could happen when Mike finally brings up the painting to El? If El took credit for commissioning the painting and the words that Will said, then it’s still an unresolved plot point because El knows that she’s lying and Will would eventually realize that she lied and the audience would know that she lied and we’d be waiting for the other shoe to drop. Plus, I just don’t think El would do that. Even if she wanted to, she wouldn’t be able to lie that fast lol, her confusion about the painting would shine through.

So, what? She tells Mike that it wasn’t her and yet they still get back together or reaffirm their romantic relationship? And this is where it really gets me. Because either Mike or Eleven or both would have to say something that is more heartfelt, honest, emotional, and affirming than what Will said in the van. And I don’t think Mike should have to! He already gave his I love you speech to El, and it would not make sense to me for them to write another ily speech from Mike to El but this time with better and more personal details of what he loves about her beyond her being a superhero. It would just feel repetitive and make the audience go. “well then why didn’t he say that in s4? Why did they drag this out into s5?” Yeah, every Byler fan knows that Mike’s I love ily speech to Eleven is rather lackluster because he pedestalizes her in it once again, but the general audience doesn’t necessarily realize that. I didn’t realize that until recently! So to the GA, his speech isn’t framed as anything to resolve or fix! So them rehashing it in s5 in order to put M/El back together will feel clunky, especially if they had a subplot of Mike basically needing to figure out how to say I love you “the right way” to El which, just……that poor dead horse, stop beating it please! Even the GA will be annoyed I bet.

ATTENTION!

This answer will get very long, so please be patient with us! I'll add my thoughts under the cut.

Part 2 and 3 of the Anon Ask

Plus—that would place all the onus back onto Mike when we’ve seen that El doesn’t make him feel like more than a loser nerd. She doesn’t mean to make him feel that way (I love El sm, fr) but we see in the van that Mike views her as out of his league, despite the fact they’ve been dating for a while now and have known each other for years, and says some disparaging things about himself. So imo, in s5, it would make more sense for it to be El’s turn to tell Mike how she feels about him beyond “I love you,” all the things she loves and appreciates about him & whatnot, EXCEPT:

1) if Mike doesn’t rehash his ily speech with more personal and less pedestal-y things he loves about El, it’s essentially tell the audience that there was nothing wrong with his OG ily speech and it should be accepted at face value, which, yikes….

2) whatever El says to Mike needs to be just as vulnerable, genuine, lovely, uplifting, and romantic as what Will told him in the van, if not more. Because if it’s not, I think even the GA will be disappointed. If El doesn’t make Mike feel as appreciated and needed and loved as he felt in the van, then why are they even together? It could make even the GA a bit sad that Will loves Mike the way Mike wants to be loved, the way El doesn’t make him feel, (the way Mike will find out, via the painting, Will does) but Mike is with El despite this. It would feel like a strong, genuine love is right out of reach from Mike, and like he’s settling or missing out

3) even if it is “just as, if not more” all those things, it’ll be hard to not make it sound like Will’s speech, especially since what Will said to Mike clearly meant a lot and is likely how Mike wants to be loved, especially the part about being needed. Mike clearly wants to be needed, to feel necessary, useful. Tbh, it was explored more in s1 & s2, but Mike’s a caretaker! And I don’t think El wants a caretaker beyond Hop & Joyce, so I don’t think she’d say what he wants to hear.

So, what? Do Mike & El reaffirm their relationship, have a resolving discussion where they get back together, and THEN the painting gets brought up? And then, what—Mike realizes El didn’t say or think those things about him? How would that not sour their relationship once again? Because Will told him, “You’re the heart!” which implies to the audience that part of why Mike felt he could say ily was Will’s speech. Like, “This is how she feels about me, I need to tell her I love her!” except that wasn’t how she felt/thought about him. In order to not sour their relationship again, #2 would need to apply, or else Mike may question how El even feels/what she thinks about him

Worst case scenario would be that Mike finding out the truth somehow results in M/El staying together and Mike going to let Will down easy, but…….literally how do M/El stay together after all this? And why end s4 with them not speaking if Mike supposedly did everything right with his speech? It would just be bad writing, plain & simple

Unfortunately I still think there’s a possibility of an outcome where neither Byler nor M/El are endgame, but bc of all this pointing toward M/El not being endgame, I think there’s a strong chance Byler will be—waaaayyyyy moreso than M/El, for sure.

oh and I realized I didn’t make it clear, parts 1 & 2 were all speculation regarding how M/El could possibly get back/stay together in s5 & why I don’t think route where M/El is endgame makes sense, writing-wise

In terms of actual predictions, I think, with all that considered, the most likely scenarios to happen in s5 are:

Mike & El talk about their relationship, Mike brings up the painting, they realize what happened, they amicably break up, Byler endgame

All of that except the order is switched, where they amicably break up and then Mike brings up the painting, thanking El for it, bam truth, bam clarity, Byler endgame

Either of those except Mike lets Will down easy instead, Mike ends the season single & Will is either also single or gets a random, half-assed love interest as an unsatisfying consolation prize (this outcome would still devastate me but it’s not impossible, sadly)

My thoughts

About the painting: They will definitely bring it up, not only for all the reasons you've mentioned but because it has been pivotal to the story as a whole.

Because this is what we have: Will loves Mike > Will makes a painting for Mike > Will assumes Mike doesn't and will never love him so attributes his own feelings to El > Mike may or may not believe that the painting is indeed from El > If Mike has feelings for Will and understands what he meant, he's elated but also working through what that means for them > If then Will tells him "he's the heart" as a way to get Mike to confess his feelings, Mike is disappointed but he does nonetheless because he does love El, but not like that > But it doesn't work and El loses, as we saw.

The very existence of Will's love informs his actions but also informs where the story goes.

It's not just that it'd be bad writing, it's that the fact that Will's feelings for Mike exist to create a painting is pivotal to the story, without them, everything would've been different.

As to a discussion between El and Mike: One important thing to note is that before leaving, El signs her note to Mike as "From El", in a clear callback to the fact he doesn't sign Love, Mike. This alone tells us everything we need to know. So El isn't going to lie, not only because she's against it, but because she would also be confused but she isn't stupid, it won't take much for her to put the pieces together and figure out what's going on.

And the thing about them reaffirming their romantic relationship, it doesn't seem to be their intention. The writers make it clear with every couple that two people don't need to say that they love each other for the feeling to be real or for it to be noticeable.

Jancy doesn't say I love you, Jopper doesn't say it, Lumax doesn't say it because they don't have to. (I didn't say it, you didn't have to). When you love someone, you show them with body language, with actions, in everyday actions, but Mike clearly doesn't because needs to beg for him to say it.

The fact that El didn't even speak with Mike for two days when she had ample opportunity to do so shows us a little bit of where her head is at. I don't think she wants to get back together with Mike, and as you said, them staying together only for the painting to be brought up

And to add to your points about El and Mike being together, another thing: If they wanted that to happen, they could have found a way of having Mike with El at the Nina Project. And beyond that, they wouldn't have made Will fall in love in the first place.

All your points about the painting are spot on, and honestly, they could've addressed it already because a lot is going on already without adding this to the mix.

I already said this before, but the choice of Will loving Mike means something will be sacrificed, whether is Will's happiness or Mike's relationship with El.

Because honestly, Will doesn't have a crush on Mike, he doesn't just like Mike. No, he's ready to push Mike towards El, to sacrifice his chance at even a friendship with Mike for his sake. Will is ready to cut himself open and watch himself bleed for Mike.

This isn't someone that can just "get over" Mike and the curious thing is that I don't have to tell you that, Will did. " El (I) need you, and she (I) always will". The writers made him say that, we didn't make it up.

But yeas, all of your points are valid about Mike and El, because even on the 0.00001% chance of Byler not being endgame, neither should Mil*ven.

[bylerpolls]

What kind of Byler are you?

A) A Mike kin. Mike is literally me. I relate to him heavily and connect to his strengths and weaknesses and internalized homophobia

B) A Mike stan! Mike is my favorite character and I’m obsessed with all things Mike. Every moment is an opportunity to talk about Mike Wheeler.

C) A Mike apologist! Defending Mike is a full time job. Mike can do no wrong, and even when he’s doing wrong, there’s a good reason for it. He is struggling so much but trying his best. I’ll defend Mike from the GA, Mlvns, AND Bylers who don’t get him. They should hire me as Mike’s lawyer. He’s such a complex and interesting character.

D) A Mike neutral. I don’t dislike Mike, but I wouldn’t say I’m a kin, a stan, or an apologist. He’s one half of Byler, and he has flaws, but I like him overall. Will is just my favorite for sure!

E) A Mike anti “Will deserves better but I’ll accept it” kind of Byler. I’m part of the Mike Wheeler hater club along with Jim Hopper. Mike has a long list of crimes against Will and he must atone for them. He has a lot of apologizing to do. But I’m a Byler because Byler is endgame and Will loves Mike. I’m a Byler…. begrudgingly sometimes. I don’t know why Byler Tumblr is so obsessed with Mike when Will is right there.

[mikeslawyer]

as a will byers fan I respect byler and won’t have an issue of it happening but I don’t think it’s fair for bylers to insist that it’s the only way for will. He absolutely could do better and open his horizons he is only 15 years old, in his head he’s thinking that’s it that’s all he has but I think for his coming of age they could show that he isn’t alone out there and that he could find love somewhere. It absolutely doesn’t have to be with mike either and I know this will trigger a lot of you since your hardcore bylers, but this is coming from a person whose only looking at this from a different view. I think he deserves more then what Mike could give him cause Mike is dealing with his own stuff and has made some mistakes regarding Will, plus he has his relationship with el he’s dealing with.

Again I wouldn’t be mad if byler was endgame cause if wills happy then I’m happy, but If it’s not I understand it exactly it’s all I’m saying.

I truly don’t even know where to start telling you how wrong you are.

First off, let me address the “he’s only 15 years old and he thinks he doesn’t have perspectives” because no. Will absolutely knows he has perspectives, he just doesn’t want them. Let’s not forget he lived in California for a year and even though it’s still the 80s, it was much more open and progressive than Indiana. California passed one of the freedom laws in 1974, following with more - they basically agreed that if both parties have consented, then it’s none of their business what’s happening between two people. They allowed gay people to be open, to express themselves.

Secondly, Freddie Mercury, David Bowie and many, many others existed and spoke up regularly and openly. Look up either of their interviews. Will knows he’s not alone, he’s not the only one. He literally moved back to Lenora, but he simply doesn’t want to. My guess is he explored his sexuality there, met more gay people, learnt about himself. Mind you, he doesn’t hate himself for being gay. He knows he can’t change it - it’s Mike who’s denying his own sexuality. Will has long since come to terms with being gay.

Another thing - I hate when people say that Mike can’t give him everything he deserves, because yes, he absolutely can and will and would always. Did we watch the same show? Mike would and has walked through hell and back for Will. His first insist when they were being shot at was to literally shield Will with his own body. Mike doesn’t see the world besides Will - he literally said that his home isn’t home because Will isn’t there. He has repeatedly, time after time, proved how much Will means to him.

Yes, Mike has problems with his relationship with El, so what? Let’s not forget that he, too, is fifteen years old and he, in contrast to Will, did not spend a year in California, a place much more open than Hawkins. Another thing, as much as Nancy would protect her brother no matter the situation, they don’t exactly talk. Meanwhile, Will has unconditional love from both his mom and his brother, who have shown him support when he cried. Mike would rather die than cry around Nancy or his mom. He has no one to turn to, no one. The only person he trusts like that is Will, who not only is the problem Mike is struggling with but also seems to just not get him anymore.

Lastly, putting all of this aside. Will is in love with Mike. He doesn’t want better. He wants Mike and I cannot stress this enough. And saying that he deserves better than the closest person in his life, someone who would walk through fire for him, someone who literally would and has protected him at the cost of heir own life - saying that just proves that you don’t understand either of their characters.

[kawaiidoodles95-blog]

Byler VS Mileven: Thoughts, opinions, etc.

Warning: If you are a Byler or Mileven endgame person, please stay off this. I’m gonna critique both of your ships.

To get the most controversial out of the way, let’s talk about Byler.

Byler is a ship between Will x Mike. If you are on Tumblr, a Stranger Things fan, and you don’t know that, what are you doing? Byler is like, 80% of the Stranger Things fandom. Anyways, so these are my thoughts on Byler. I don’t think it’s gonna be endgame and I don’t think it’s be healthy even if it was. Mike seems really… uh, what’s the word, rude to Will? Especially in the last 2 seasons. Mike was literally pushing Will away in the 3rd season over a girl. Yes, I do agree Will is gay. I have no real doubt about it. But if Mike really loved Will…

1. He’d probably show true signs of affection. No, not smiling at Will. No, not grabbing his hand (I do that with my friends no matter what gender they are.) Like, actual signs of affection, not just friendship signs.

2. He’d probably be more coy with Will. Just as Will is showing affection to Mike in obvious ways, Mike should probably recuperate these feelings. This leads to my 3rd and final point…

3. Is Mike just stupid? Listen. How come we, the outsiders, the people watching, the people not even being INTERACTED with, are noticing all the signs of Will’s obvious gayness, when MIKE, the person being DIRECTLY TALKED TO AND INTERACTED WITH is not getting the hint. Sorry, this topic just gets me heated. I know this is the 80’s and being gay is still taboo, but being Bi/Gay is not unknown. Mike probably would know if he himself is bi, non the less, his own friend. Will is as subtle as 100 nukes going off at once. So why is Mike not getting it?

So yeah, that’s my thoughts on Byler. Overall, I don’t have a problem with the ship. It’s just that people are thinking it’s going to 100% being endgame, and hey, maybe I’m wrong. I’m just saying Byler is not 100% on the board of endgame ships, if there are any.

Now let’s talk about Mileven.

This is the ship of Mike and El. This is a canon (for now) ship. So, obviously since I dislike Byler, I must be for Mileven, right?

Idiot.

I am for NEITHER. NON. NEIN. NIE. Here are my reasons for my dislike of Mileven. I don’t think they’re gonna break up, but I sure as heck hope they do. El deserves better. Sure, Mike was forced to, but he could have chosen not to lie to El if he truly loved her. Second, he was overprotective of El, and El deserves to have her independence. Luckily, she does in S3 and 4. Mike was great to her in the first two seasons, being not overprotective, but just caring and wanting to make sure she’s ok. He seemed to have chemistry, and then, the next season… well… it sort of turned toxic. Mike got really weird and mean to like, a lot of people. If he truly loved El, he would have…

1. Stayed like how he was in the first 2 seasons. Protective, but not overly so. The relationship shouldn’t have become the stereotypical and annoying break-up get-back-together plot. I feel like Lumax was the way they should’ve went with the relationship.

2. Again, he wouldn’t lie. He should’ve stayed with El and not have lied, because that only made the whole thing worse. Then that lead to Mike and Will fighting, because Mike is a moron (are you seeing a pattern here? That both of these ships’s issues are a lot because of Mike? Huh) and wouldn’t even listen to his own “crush.”

3. He would, as I mentioned with Will, be more coy with her. Mike in the recent seasons (also notice how I keep mentioning the first and latest 2 seasons? Odd) has been acting strange around Eleven. Almost like she’s pulling her along on a relationship that doesn’t really exist anymore. I think he’s worried El will be mad at him and not help him if he breaks up with her. But again, that isn’t healthy. That isn’t love.

So those are my thoughts on the ships. If you disagree with me and fight in the comments like a bunch of barbarians, I will not care. You can like what you like, just leave me out of it.

[paintingformike]

really cant stress enough that the way the painting has been set up would be completely senseless if it doesnt inevitably lead in byler endgame. like just on a “critical thinking” and “common sense” standpoint, there would be no point to will lying about the painting and veiling his feelings under el’s name if the outcome wouldn’t shift anything in the el/mike/will love triangle. i know it’s been said a million times before but i just wanted to really make people realize this in a sort of wake up call?

when an act of affection is attributed to someone else through a lie, it’s usually framed in a negative light and is used to invoke strong feelings of sympathy for the character who gets the short end of the stick and hope for things to change in their favor. and i don’t mean like el herself is being framed negatively in this plot point, but just the prospect of the painting coming from her when the idea and the efforts were completely someone else’s gives people the sense that hey, that’s not the full truth and we can’t just let this slide when character A was actually the one who poured all the effort and care into this symbol of love and not character B? character B shouldn’t be getting the credit especially when its a complete lie?

obviously, they’re intentionally making you feel bad for will in this scenario, because all the work and actual feelings poured into the painting were from him. he was the one who made mike feel loved for who he truly was, not el. and i know the full intentions of the writers because this is exactly how i felt watching the van scene for the first time, even way before i actively started rooting for byler to end up together. as soon as he started expressing his feelings under the guise of el i knew i was frustrated. i wanted his tireless love and efforts to be recognized for what they truly were. keep in mind that this was the time i wasn’t invested in the fandom or any of the ships yet. i just wanted will’s feelings to be really seen and heard. i wanted mike to know the truth. then i realized that 9 times out of 10 when writers make you feel all these things for a character, they’re meant to get what they deserve in the end: the one they love.

i hope people actually understand what i’m getting at because it’s just such an obvious situation to me. the idea and the feelings that came with the painting are being attributed to the wrong person, it’s supposed to be a bad thing because it’s framed as if this false attribution seemingly worked more for el and “fixed” her relationship with mike, but happened at the expense of the true source of the love and care in the painting, will. but once the truth comes out it’s finally going to be attributed to the rightful person and what happens next? connect the dots and boom 😭 this is exactly why the painting is all we need for byler endgame because it’s being written as like....the “dead end” to the storyline.

[eddiemunsonbrainrot]

hi, are you the person who wrote a very down to earth and sensible post about how obvious byler endgame is based on visual storytelling? if so i vaguely remember you saying you werent invested in byler at first (hence also your username lol) but now you seem really into it and i love that and would like to know more about your journey haha

if none of this makes sense, please swivel me back around and propel me gently down the waterslide thank youuuuuuuuuu

finally getting round to answering asks sorry it has taken so long!

I don’t THINK that was me but I have also made so many posts on here that I can’t say for certain?BUT you are right that I wasn’t that invested in byler at first!

I’ve been a fan of st since season one since the party actors are all around my age so that was what brought the appeal at first then I stayed because of the amazing plot. In season one I was an absolute massive fan of mileven, but I was also part of the early Will Byers is gay truthers. In season 2 I was a multishipper, shipping both mileven and byler, but more mileven since at that point they were still kind of cute. But then in season 3 I stopped shipping mileven and only shipped byler, but only casually. In the first volume of season 4 I also only shipped them casually, and I was more obsessed with Eddie (hence the username).

However, after vol 1 is when I started getting really into tumblr, at first mainly for Eddie and steddie, but then I kept seeing byler proof posts and I was like hang onnnn could this actually happen???? Then I just ending up diving DEEP into byler and seeing all the evidence and analysis and now I am so invested and completely believe that byler will be endgame and if it isn’t the duffers are wrong, not us. I still love Eddie but I am farrrrrrr more invested in byler than anything else about stranger things but I’ve gone by this username for so long that I’m scared if I change it no one will know who I am so it’s going to stay forever

[kiirotoao]

Re: Byler and being best friends

Alright, look, I understand that in real life, best friends can appreciate each other’s art. Best friends look for each other when they’re lost. Best friends stick together in rough patches. Best friends fight and disagree. Best friends apologize when they’ve messed up. Best friends give each other gifts. Best friends confide in each other with almost everything. Best friends can do romantic things and be completely and utterly platonic in real life.

But guess what Stranger Things is not? Real life!!

If any story in media is well-captured and well-written, if the camera sees it, if we see it, then it’s supposed to be important. While friends in real life can do the most questionably romantic things and still claim to be just friends or even just best friends, there’s far more nuance to real people to explore if it’s truly romantic or not, and that’s not for others to openly discern. But we who analyze Byler are not doing this because Mike and Will are real people. They’re characters, crafted into this audio-visual story with pre-written and exclusive history and dreams.

While I know that they say they’re just best friends, I speculate on them potentially being more. Why? Because their stories are interwoven and I see chemistry within the threads. It’s as simple as that.

I preach at the end of almost every video I make, “Byler’s endgame,” and really, that’s a sendoff of encouragement more than anything else. Because I hope and believe that Byler can happen at the end of this season and this overarching story. I’m not pushing two people together. I’m hopeful to see two characters come together and realize that their relationship and feelings can blend into a wonderfully written romance amidst this dangerous and unpredictable world that they’ve been put in.

So please stop comparing Mike and Will to real relationships and saying, can’t best friends just be best friends? Look, yes! You’re right! In real life, best friends can be nothing more and choose to stay that way. But on the other hand, hey, best friends in real life can also become more! No one can deny that! But whatever the weather, whatever can be real isn’t relevant. Real lives are not a TV show. Real lives are not being created and publicized (besides some people in reality TV, which is another unrelated issue). By contrast, as characters, Mike and Will’s lives are. And I love the thought of them finding love in each other at the end of the pages. It gets no finer than that.

And so when I look back at their narratives and see the way they treat each other, interact on screen and see how they think, tell me, am I wrong for shipping them? I’m taking the details and looking beyond explicit labels. And I don’t just go around doing this to all people I see in my life who have chemistry. This is specific, this is the love I witness in this thriller-drama-romance. I’m sorry if I end up fighting against you, but I’m not here to crowd you out. Ship what you want. If you love certain characters together, talk about them! There’s a plethora to talk about for Byler! So honestly, I’m curious, why are you compelled to come to me and try to convert me away from what I love when I often don’t even mention your name? Is there not enough for you to obsess over and love? Is there perhaps not enough textual evidence or good moments to enjoy for your ship? I’m just saying.

At the end of the day, real life experiences and examples are practically void when we’re talking about art, and please, please let me have fun with my ships. This is the internet. If you don’t like it, use your capabilities and settings and scroll or block what you don’t like, and pursue what you do. Unless you want to join a forum to discuss the arguments, I think that it’s unfair to think that those who don’t ship your ship are going to talk about your ship. I’m not responsible for what you consume and see. Really, no one is but yourself.

I like to think that I’m rather patient, but I don’t know, I think I’m tearing at the seams a little after a few years in this fandom. This is directed to no one in particular, though, so please don’t take this as a direct callout. I just wanted to get this off my chest. Sorry if I got a little harsh in the end, there, too.

Thank you to those who’ve engaged very respectfully with me even if you disagree with my opinions. I hope that I’m respectful, in turn. I love lighthearted debates, but I don’t love repeating myself to some who don’t want to listen. And of course, thank you Bylers. I’ve met so many wonderful people through our silly journeys going crazy together. That’s all. 💙💛

[mikewheelerfan2022]

Bit of a weird question for you.

I am not a byler or a mileven shipper, mostly because I'm not invested in the romance of the show. But, I have to admit, I am curious: what makes you think Mike loves El?

My lack of investment may not make it apparent, but to me, the only obvious evidence is that he says he loves her, which isn't evidence at all.

Idk. Don't take this the wrong way. And don't say "it's obvious" - I genuinely just can't see it at all.

Thanks for the question! I haven’t watched the show in a while, but I think the main reason is the way he acts. In Season 1, he immediately takes El in, and asks her to go to the Snow Ball. And yeah, crushes usually don’t develop that fast, but it doesn’t feel strictly platonic. Mike’s reaction to El’s “death” especially shows this, as he reacts the strongest out of any of the party. This is the first seeds of their relationship. And then in Season 2, he calls her every single day, even though he doesn’t get an answer. I don’t remember exactly how many days it was, but it was over 300. And then his reaction to seeing her again…omg. Season 2 was the best Mileven season for sure. Season 3 is where their relationship starts to show cracks. Especially with Hopper forcing Mike to lie to El. But he still loves her. There’s this one scene where he calls everybody out for essentially just seeing El as her powers. And that’s so powerful to me. And Season 4…well, I’m pretty unhappy as to how that season treated Mileven. I think the bumps in their relationship was unnecessary, since we just got that in Season 3. But wow. Mike’s monologue. I think that’s one of the few times in Season 3 or 4 we see a return to the original, caring Mike instead of the butchered version of him. So yeah, even though Mike can’t really say “I love you” (which is likely due to his parents not really showing love to each other), his actions show that he cares for El deeply, in much more than a platonic way. And I know they’re going to be endgame because of this deep bond, despite the issues.

Thanks for reading my rant if you made it this far

[chirpsythismorning]

Y’all will be your own undoing the fact none of you have not even the slightest bit of doubt is rather worrying. what happens if neither is endgame and let’s say Mike is killed off? You can’t say that won’t happen either because you don’t know the same way you can’t say byler is endgame because you don’t know hell even milevens can’t say they’re ship is endgame because they don’t know. Ego is ruining both sides and neither side is correct and shouldn’t proclaim to be.

I'm sorry anon, but I'm not all bylers. While there are a great deal of bylers like myself who have less doubts these days, there are plenty that have mostly doubts. PLENTY. Arguably the vast majority. And for good reason, ie. history.

To be completely honest anon, I don't think you're worried about bylers and their lack of doubts. I think their lack of doubt scares you bc it's caused you to go from confident to having doubts yourself. Why else would you be here on anon all condescending otherwise?

Personally, I'm not even here bc I want to believe byler's endgame. And no offense to those that have went through it, because the whole point of queer-baiting is to basically mock queer fans and lead them on with no intention of following through, but I have never been queer-baited before.

I did however, like many milkvans, go into Stranger Things loving Mike and El under the assumption they were peak romance. I literally skipped all of s2 during my first rewatch to get to their reunion! But genuinely, do we think the show is supposed to be watched that way?? Hell no.

If you're having to skip all of s2, most of s3, most of s4 in rewatches, bc Mike and El are separated, fighting, or broken up, what does that tell you?

If you're having resentments for characters like Max and Lucas and Will and Hopper bc the story has made points to have those characters interfere with your confidence in Mike and El romantically, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're probably watching the show wrong. To be clear, if you have resentment for ANY of the main characters, you are missing something!!!

And that was my problem back then when I subscribed to these assumptions, because I WANTED to believe Mike and El were the pinnacle of romance, despite the signs incoming that went against it. And what that meant is I had to hold resentments for all the characters, including Mike and El themselves and even the Duffer Brothers for ruining what I WANTED to believe.

After s3, me, my friends, family and quite honestly anyone I spoke to about the show, said that it went downhill since the previous two seasons. And I do think a big part of the reason why, is because of the Mike and El conflict conflating everything. It felt regressive. And s4 repeating that exact storyline????

It took me a while to even consider byler as an idea. It's not like I latch onto every non-canon mlm ship and just ship for nothing (very few bylers do this, no matter how much anti's need to convince themselves this is the case as an excuse to be homophobic).

I am a hopeless romantic. Doesn't matter if it's queer or straight, I only ship stuff that I feel confident is endgame bc why would I put myself through scenes of something that doesn't feel right to me, merely bc I want to believe it and despite everything pointing against it??

Full serious, IF I was confident in milkvan endgame as a possibility, I would probably just convince myself to like them and provide evidence supporting it, bc I would honestly rather be right? Who tf wants to be wrong?

The problem was it didn't matter if I was initially convinced Mike and El were the pinnacle of romance (I was a child okay, give me a break...). Once I let go of that assumption because of all the doubts I had of them piling up, and took off my heteronormative goggles, I went woah... Holy shit. This show is actually fucking epic. Doubts gone. And the rest is history.

So, what happens if neither is endgame and Mike's killed off? I guess I would be confused, especially because the Duffer's specifically mentioned not being able to kill off Mike in a podcast last year. They gave their reasoning as to why, being that they take deaths on their show very seriously, needing 1+ seasons for them to show the characters mourning the loss. And so ending the show on that exact note, would be kind of a spoiler since they brought it up specifically? Therefore kind of redundant?

I guess, sue me for thinking the Duffers care about the show and put a lot of meaning into it. All of my analysis and theories are based on that assumption. No one's going to change how I think about that, so trust me, not worth getting worked up over it, anon.

If your evidence is all based on the assumption that the Duffers are not that good of writers, that almost everything on the show is coincidental and there's no deeper meaning beyond surface level, why are you even watching it in the first place? You do you I guess, but I just don't know why you wouldn't want to watch something that is more worth your time?

People being confident in their theories wont hurt you. If it bothers you so much, maybe find a way to be confident with your theories after looking at all the evidence from both sides. All sides. Any sides. If you still come up completely indifferent, then don't work yourself up by going on anon and making it other peoples' problem.

If it turns out everything meant nothing, and I was wrong about everything or most of what I interpreted, I will be okay! Because the show went from being about what I wanted to believe, to just what I genuinely believed.

Would I be disappointed? Sure. But lets hope I'm right bc in my scenario the show is epic and everything means something... not sure why anyone would root for the alt...

[byersfanclub]

making this post again and being more detailed and explaining more. 

Why Ted’s “And no sweetie pie” comment throws me off and if it’s meant to be aimed at Will or Mike’s GF that Ted and Karen know nothing about. 

gif cred: bylrndgm

So, I know a lot of people’s first thoughts to this scene are “Why would Mike make that face?” If it’s directed at Will. I get you. I see you. Usually when you see a grimace, confusion or annoyance, you’d want it to be about El because ofc we want Byler endgame. 

(edit 3/26/23) Personally, when I see this expression on Mike’s face, I see annoyance that his father is teasing him. Kids hate being teased by their parents. Ted seems to tease Mike a decent amount from what we’ve seen. “Our son with a girl?” or the “If your friend jumped off a cliff, would you?” and other little remarks throughout the seasons that Ted has said about or to Mike. He’s annoyed that his father is teasing him about Will, maybe this is first time Ted has said something along the lines of Mike and Will being “in love” (ofc Ted probably doesn’t actually think this, but parents tease their kids all the time about their friends that they’re close with) OR/AND it could be mike just thinking of having to face el, idk 🤷‍♀️ On my last post, I had a few people in the replies say some retorts which could definitely be some explanations... If we had more evidence to back them up. I understand that my theory is purely a theory as well, but that’s because I also have no hardcore evidence that Ted is referring to Will as Mike’s “sweetie pie” this is just what makes the most sense to me.  So one of the few things people tend to bring up whenever I’ve spoken about this before is that fact that Karen was eavesdropping on Mike and El’s conversation in s3. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvm_CxOg-Rg

Now, this very well could be indication that Karen knows that Mike has a girlfriend, there’s still not enough hard evidence that that is the case. Their conversation doesn’t have enough evidence, for all she knows it could just be one of Mike’s friends. Mike is friends with Max by now, who’s to say he couldn’t have another friend that’s a girl? The only line in their conversation that’s even slightly incriminating is “I can’t see you today” but also who knows how long Karen was listening in? Does Karen know Hopper is taking care of some girl? I thought no one was supposed to know? If anything, I think this could have more to do with Karen as a character in general because she def knows something is up, rather than her knowing Mike is dating a girl.  Another thing about that in general is with Ted’s teasing about Mike, I feel like it would have been the perfect and prime opportunity for Ted to tease Mike about having a girlfriend. That makes such perfect sense for his character and for Mike’s dynamic with his father. But that’s just imo.  Now, the next thing people bring up is that fact that Karen and Ted know about a girl who escaped and was potentially being hidden by Mike in their basement. This is fact, we know this happened. They know about this dangerous girl. But why on Earth would that equate to Ted thinking that Mike is dating this girl years later? And she now lives in California (either close or with the Byers) That’s very odd to me. Either I remember s1 wrong or Ted and Karen magically found out about El from the time skip between s3-s4. Or they know Mike just randomly has a girlfriend in California that they never show us any screen time for us to know that they know.  Lastly, they never show El interacting with Karen or Ted or Nancy or Holly when the pull up into the Wheeler’s driveway. Minus Mike’s shit monologue and then basically not talking to one another (so romantic) If Mike and El were on great terms, wouldn’t this have been a good time to be like “Mom, Dad, I want to introduce you to my girlfriend, El/Jane.” That literally doesn’t happen lmao. Very odd. They don’t even ask who she is.  Overall, this obviously ties back into Ted’s “And no sweetie pie.” comment. With all of this said and done, does it still make sense for Ted’s comment to be aimed at El/Mike’s mysterious girlfriend that we’re never explicitly told that Karen and Ted know about? No. Not really. At least not in my mind. But it sure as hell makes sense for Ted to be teasing Mike and for it to be just another piece of foreshadowing Byler endgame. 

Fin.