#*honorifics

[whatcha-thinkin]

In an egregious oversight, the Citizen button should read Citizen / Comrade.

[kaizokuou-ni-naru]

sanji and zoro's shared tendency to only ever use the honorific -kun for each other specifically for the purpose of being cunts will never stop being so so funny to me. (i noted a couple previous instances of this here.)

for example here sanji is going "marimo-kun... died in the line of duty with the one piece right before his eyes...."

[solecist]

more context for 악어(acau)'s translation (troubles? future troubles?)!

@blockgamepirate mentioned pronouns in context of translation in a reblog and that got me thinking about a bunch of things lmao but mostly about 반말 (banmal).

악어 decided really early on into his experience with the translator to try to use banmal bc he felt like the translator was picking up on it better, and he probably thought this because of two things:

banmal is usually shorter than 존댓말 (jondaemal) which is the polite/default way of speaking. and when i say default i mean my parents sometimes use it to refer to each other. it's more than just politeness, it's also a certain amount of respect? with younger people (high school, college, maybeeee graduate student age) people tend to use banmal with friends. older people use banmal to talk to children, and children use banmal except when talking to older people. i think the easiest way of showing just how much shorter banmal is, is to use "안녕" (korean "hello") as an example. "안녕" (annyeong) is actually banmal! you absolutely wouldn't say this to someone you've just met - you would say "안녕하세요" (annyeonghaseyo) which is jondaemal. but do you see how the second is three syllables longer? there's more of a margin of error with three more syllable and that's why the machine translator doesn't work as well with jondaemal.

The most casual way of speaking banmal uses pronouns. korean doesn't have gendered pronouns really, and the pronouns it does have seem. rude? generally? children use pronouns a lot and adults use pronouns when speaking to children but otherwise.... if you're not friends (and young honestly have yet to find an midsized (40+) adult regularly use pronouns) calling someone "you" is like. an insult. it works (that is, it doesn't feel like an insult) in 악어's stream for me because it felt like he was speaking in a significantly simpler/slower register after a while? like the register you'd use for kids. but i did want to put it out there! because if you're trying to learn korean through 악어's stream, you're probably listening to him use banmal! and that's just something to be aware of.

more pronoun thoughts! in terms of gender - korean doesn't have gendered pronouns. the closest you get in third person is something like "that girl" so machine translate will almost never get it right. it will default to masculine (in my experience) or the first person ("i" "me") so that's something to keep in mind. honestly my dad often defaults to masculine third person pronouns because he forgets pronouns are gendered in english and that there's more than one of them lmaooo. korean does gender relationships A Lot (oppa is the one that most people will know - brother from female speaker to older male listener) but pronouns wise there's. no gender oop.

i just wanted to put this out there because as 악어 becomes more a part of the qsmp community, we'll probably slowly pick up on the more regular patterns of awkward machine translation from an east asian language to english, and more specifically from korean to english. and if it's confusing that's ok! assume good faith - 악어 from what i can tell isn't a streamer who'll use insults a lot or curse, and his normal way of speaking to his audience is very soothing/polite/jondaemal, so i hope that people keep watching him throughout this introduction period!

[avionvadion]

I’ve noticed I have a bit of pet peeve, lol.

Specifically involving the use of Your Majesty and Your Highness.

Your Majesty is used for the ruling monarch, while Your Highness is used for the monarch’s heir and relatives of the royal family. But people have been referring to Lucifer as Your Highness.

Charlie is Your Highness. Lucifer is Your Majesty. Likewise, Lilith is/was also Your Majesty.

Just… Just a little tip. A fun fact.

[guzhuangheaven]

How exactly do consorts and concubines get the "names"? In Legend of Ruyi, we hear names like Xian, Yu, Jia, Shu, etc. Do these names have any specific meaning?

The names like Xian, Jia, Shu etc. are granted titles or fenghao 封号 given to consorts. Usually only those with the ranks of pin and up will have granted titles, because only ranks of pin and up 1) have formal ceremony (册封) to canonise their title and 2) only pin and up would be entitled to wear court attire and attend formal rites and ceremonies. 

Of course in dramas you will see concubines lower than the rank of pin have fenghao and it’s either just not explained (Yuyan as Jia Guiren) or passed off in the drama as at the discretion of the emperor (Zhen Huan as Wan Changzai). 

Anyway, fenghao are likely chosen by the Ministry of Rites 礼部. The meaning of each fenghao can have pretty broad interpretations because of the way Chinese works, one character’s will have a general meaning but the specific can change depending on when you pair that character with another, but generally characters used as fenghao would all carry auspicious meanings or highlight the virtues of consort. 

娴 xian - elegant. I’m reading way too much into this, but in the context of Legend of Ruyi, I wonder if there is also some subtle messaging considering part of the title contains the character 闲 which means idle, leisurely, unoccupied, which is basically the life that Ruyi wishes she has, for every to just leave her the hell alone and she’ll leave them alone, but never could have. Also another person who wishes for this and can’t have it is Fan Xian, whose name is actually is xian 闲. 

愉 yú - pleasant, pleased, delighted. Hailan was granted this title when she gave birth to Yongqi and Qianlong explained it was because she had pleased him by having a son. Not to be confused with 豫 yù which is Eyinzhu’s title which also means happy. 

慧 hui - intelligent. The Empress Dowager had a whole spiel about how this title for Xiyue is ironic because she really is…not. Which could just be Qianlong going I wish she would be more intelligent.

令 ling - The Chinese Wikipedia says that this title derives from the Manchurian word mergen which means intelligent and wise, so clearly Qing dynasty fenghao also take into consideration the Manchurian equivalent/meanings of the words. 

嘉 jia - blessing/praise; 純 chun - pure; 舒 shu - comfortable, leisurely

An aside re fenghao in Legend of Zhen Huan

It’s always so funny to me that when An Lingrong was made a consort, the officials initially prepared as one of the choices for her fenghao the character 丽 (meaning beautiful) and Yongzheng vetoed it because it the character 丽 is part of some saying that extols the harmony between husband and wife, and Lingrong can’t bear this title because she’s not his wife, and this is the reason Zhen Huan suggested modifying the title to 鹂, a type of bird, probably knowing that Lingrong would hate it. 

And I’m just…

WHO THE HELL IS THIS THEN??

Of course, the whole thing with Lingrong’s title is also just to highlight how precarious Lingrong’s situation then is and her promotion was a pity promotion because she was pregnant and she’s not actually that in favour. 

Anyway, other concubines of lower ranks would be called by title of address 称号 chenghao, which are usually a character from their surname, their father’s name or their own name. Hai Guiren comes from Hailan’s name, An Lingrong was called An Daying/Changzai/Guiren/Pin for a long time from her surname. 

[haedalkoo]

https://www.tumblr.com/haedalkoo/758609685688549376/hi-did-jk-ever-call-jm-jimin-ah-in-the-2?source=share

I was excited to see it. I wonder why he stopped calling him that.

Honestly? The times we've heard him address Jimin as Jimin-ah aren't that common. And when we have, it's been under a very specific context like a joke or teasing. If anything he uses just Jimin more than Jimin-ah. Loooots of Jimin-ssi too, I love it when he goes "Jimin-ssi" in a deep voice and some scolding follows. It's his way to get away with scolding his hyung and I'm here for it.

You guys need to keep in mind that calling your hyung like that is considered to be extremely rude unless your elder explicitly allowed you to do so, or if you're a couple. Even if he wanted to, JK isn't just going to drop honorifics casually in front of their entire staff. The joking around and teasing is plausible deniability for both of them, and tbh he already gets away with too much by being the """bratty maknae""" 🫡

[multigenderswag]

A lot of people have put "mage" (abbreviated as mg.) as an honorific in the "other" box and I think that's pretty swag

[kippeo]

I'm a frog 🐸

난 개구리야.

In Korean there are few ways to say "I" depending on particle and polite speech level.

The most intimate used only among close friends and family, younger people than us or our subordinates is to say about yourself as

나+ -은/는 (particle) ➡️ 나는 (난 abbreviated form)

나+ -이/가 (particle) ➡️ 내가

On the other hand, when someone is older than us, is higher in the "hierarchy" (workplace, school) or we want to keep our conversation more polite and more respectful or we aren't so close (strangers) with each other, is better to use:

저+ -이/가 (particle) ➡️ 제가

저+ -은/는 (particle) ➡️ 저는 (전 abbreviated form)

Abbreviated forms like 난 or 전 are often used in colloquial speech. Particles can be omitted (but only in colloquial speech) and we say just 나 or 저

However, when we say 저 without any particles, this can have another meaning like "over there".

[writtenbygracewilliams]

Peerages & Titles: everything you need to know

[A heavily researched 6.5k+ hyperfocus from my Google docs, to help your fanfics]

Disclaimers:

Sources are not consistent. You’d think they would be. They are not. I’ve corralled several reliable websites and books into something that I think makes sense, is accessible, and fits [largely] with portrayals in Bridgerton/modern media.

That being said, Bridgerton/modern media make mistakes. You might notice in reading through all this that there is something different to how it is portrayed in media. Feel free to discuss with me, I could very well be wrong, but also know that you are consuming fiction and this is intended to be fact.

However, whilst trying to be correct, many sources are modern and it is difficult to confirm how titling and forms of address may have changed in the past 200–300 years. Though, I imagine not greatly given the peerage and aristocracy still exists.

Where possible, I have used Bridgerton characters as the examples so that it is easier to make sense/contextualise it. Names in red are not characters, just placeholder names. Hence I have reduced, reused, recycled these names.

On the note of using names from within the Bridgerverse, the Marquess of Ashdown was not married when we met him. I’d also like to know what Julia Quinn has against Earls and Marquesses, Marquesses especially.

Second note of using names in the Bridgerverse, I refuse to use Baron of Kent because it is a factual/historical disaster. More on that here.

This only applies to aristocracy of Britain/UK [minimally Ireland, read here], if I do more of Europe/anywhere else I will link it below but let me know if you want that.

All of these posts may be edited/expanded at any time as my research continues.

Further posts:

General info, start here!

Glossary

A brief history of the peerages/titles

The different peerages [England, Great Britain, United Kingdom, Scotland, Ireland]

How royal titles work

Peerage applications and functions in the modern day

Privileges of the peerage

How titles apply to the child of peers

Rank and precedence within the peerage

Titling rules for non peers

Other roles and titles I can give address information for

Female inheritance of titles

Territorial designations, and when the surname differs from the title name

Haven’t decided if I will do a post on grammar rules when writing peers because despite studying etiquette and titles for over a decade, and linguistics and grammar for seven years, the grammar/capitalisation rules of writing peers broke my final straw of sanity. Let me know how much you want it, or just drop any specific questions.

Put any questions about any of this in my ask :)

–GW xo

[misfitreferences]

AMAZING RESOURCE for ancient Chinese ranks & titles!!!! Everyone say thank you NYANOVELS!

[danketsuround]

A simple guide to how Kuwana uses honorifics - Lost Judgement

Hi, there is a REVISED version of this post here. Thanks!

[sunstoner]

happy pride people of the internet

is your gender a bit fucky? are you tired of the same old same old honorifics? are you simply just bored and looking for some reading material? well youre in luck!

in my scouring of this site ive yet to find one giant list of alternate honorifics/prefixes/titles or whatever you want to call them (maybe i didnt look hard enough, who knows) so i decided "fuck it! let me make my own." it took a while to find these and i definitely have to thank the gender census for a lot of them. (note: this is probably not all possible prefixes! these are just what i could find and what i could find pronunciations for (excluding part 4). feel free to mention any others & their pronunciations!)

anyways! continue below the part

part one: matching

these honorifics/prefixes/titles look similar enough to mr/ms/mrs/miss while also not being those. and no, its not just mx! note: for space purposes there may be a list of titles with one pronunciation

1. m.

can be pronounced em, mist, messer, master, or magister

2. m*.

pronounced miss-star

3. ma.

pronounced mistra

4. me.

can be pronounced mew or messer

5. mg.

can be pronounced mage or magister

6. mir.

pronounced mir

7. msc. ; misc.

pronounced misk, shortened from miscellaneous

8. mist. ; mrm. ; msm. ; mtr.

pronounced mistrum

9. ml.

pronounced mistrel

10. mm.

can be pronounced mistum or mistrum

11. mn.

pronounced mine

12. mnt.

pronounced mount

13. mq.

can be pronounced mick or marquis

14. mre.

can be pronounced mistree or mystery

15. mrsr.

pronounced merser

16. mrw.

pronounced morrow

17. mry. ; mse. ; mys. ; myst.

pronounced mystery

18. msr.

can be pronounced messr or misser

19. msry.

pronounced misry

20. mssr.

pronounced messer

21. mst.

pronounced mist

22. mstr.

pronounced master

23. mt.

can be pronounced mount or mistrum

24. mtx.

pronounced matrix

25. mu.

pronounced as written

26. mv.

pronounced maverique

27. mw.

can be pronounced mew or morrow

28. mx.

can be pronounced mix, mex, mux, mixter, mistrum, or monselle

29. mxr.

pronounced mixer

30. myr.

pronounced myster

31. mz.

pronounced miz

32. mzr.

can be pronounced mezzir or mezzer

part two: branching

these honorifics/prefixes/titles are the same as part one, but they look different from the "default" format. so many letters. note: for space purposes there may be a list of titles with one pronunciation

1. an.

pronounced any

2. c. ; cap. ; capt. ; cpt. ; cptn. ; ct.

pronounced captain

3. cd. ; cde. ; cmd. ; cmr. ; cmrd. ; com.

pronounced comrade

4. cit. ; ctz. ; cz. ; czn.

pronounced citizen

5. cnst.

pronounced constellation

6. cr.

can be pronounced comrade or cryptid

7. de.

pronounced done

6. div.

pronounced div, shortened from individual

7. dm.

pronounced dame

8. dr.

pronounced doctor

9. drst.

pronounced dearest

10. em.

pronounced as written

11. en.

can be pronounced enby or entity

12. ent.

pronounced entity

13. eu.

pronounced eunuch

14. fh.

pronounced fellow human

15. fw.

pronounced fellow worker

16. hm.

pronounced human

17. hon.

pronounced on, shortened from honorable

18. hx.

pronounced hex

19. ind.

pronounced as written, shortened from individual

20. inv.

pronounced inevitable

21. jan.

pronounced as written

22. lic.

pronounced licenciature

23. nb.

pronounved en bee, shortened from nonbinary

24. nl.

pronounced null

25. nr.

pronounced nister

26. nx.

can be pronounced nix or nex

27. per. ; pr.

can be pronounced per or person

28. phl.

pronounced philosophe

29. prof.

pronounced professor

30. rab.

pronounced rabbi

31. rev.

pronounced reverand

32. sai.

pronounced sigh

33. san.

pronounced as written

34. ser.

can be pronounced ser or serah

35. sr.

can be pronounced sir or serrah

36. syr.

pronounced as written

37. sys.

pronounced system

38. the.

pronounced as written

39. tr.

can be pronounced ter or teacher

40. vd.

pronounced void

41. vr.

pronounced ver

42. vx.

can be pronounced vix or vex

43. xr.

pronounced xer

44. zr.

can be pronounced zir or zeester

part three: sir? ma'am?

these honorifics are specifically meant to replace the sir/ma'am words. they feel different than the other ones so they get their own part.

1. boss

2. captain

3. chief

4. comrade

5. friend

6. gentile

7. m'ir

8. sa'am

9. sai

10. tiz

11. xir

12. zir

part four: how do you say...

these honorifics are ones i couldnt find pronunciations for... if you know em lmk please & thanks 🫰🏾

1. sn.

thats it, i couldnt find a pronunciation for it but i thought it was cool 🤸🏾

thats all folks

i might update depending on the responses i get and anything else i find :)

last edits: 3 jun 2024

[kaizokuou-ni-naru]

Here's something I though of recently: As we all know, Koby uses the -San honorific for basically everyone, but what about Alvida? The one he calked an old hag?

so, while he's still living in fear of alvida, coby actually refers to her with the even more respectful 様/sama honorific, which appears to be standard for her crew (the other alvida pirates do it too).

but i am struggling to remember if he actually ever refers to her by name after shouting her down? which means i can't tell if he adjusts how he refers to her at all following that character development. he does still use his polite verb forms when insulting her, though.

[i-am-trans-gwender]

Karate Kid 2 rewrite

Daniel LaRusso: You could have killed him, couldn't you. Why didn't you then?

Mr Miyagi: Because Daniel San I'm not going to murder a man for bullying a kid! What the actual fuck is wrong with you?

[thelingodingo]

usually after watching a few episodes on a kpop group i can easily tell which members are older and which are younger but THAT SHIT DOES NOT APPLY TO SEVENTEEEEEEEEEN since everyone just SPEAKS BANMAL without even using honorifics.....HONORIFICS!!!!! one of the most important aspects of korean social conventions! they use them so rarely i eventually just have to google their ages smh

[grace-williams-xo]

If you ever wanted to know anything about English peers or titles [royals included],,,, I did weeks of hyper focused research so you don’t have to! There are 12 posts, here is the master post with easy to ready tables about basic forms of address and links to the 11 other deep dives.

LOWKEY if it doesn’t get a modicum of attention I’ll cry and I wish I was kidding