diane27

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

I could say that ASOIAF is a very medieval lit story at heart and you’d be like, “well no shit Sherlock, tell me something I don’t know 🙄”.

And I’d say: “Ok bet. ASOIAF’s medieval core is best exemplified through Jon Snow and Bran Stark, two distinct yet mirrored iterations of one hero-knight whose origins can be traced to Percival and his magical quest. Both are Percival (and both are potentially the grail king) but one is as close a 1:1 copy as we can get (Jon) and the other is the Percival archetype completely flipped over its head before it even begins (Bran). Jon, by the author’s own admission, is the fantasy hero in the most traditional sense. He’s Percival who was inspired by the knights and left his mother’s castle to chase after chivalric glory (Jon III AGoT), only to find out that he has a massive misunderstanding of the knight’s purpose and honor (ACOK/ASOS arcs). No one told him of the ethical dilemmas involved with being a knight. No one told him that he could meet the fair maiden and either be completely incapable of helping her (Gilly) or help her, leave her, and be burdened by her death (Ygritte). No one told him how hard it would be to have his entire world view upended and upon going back to his fellow knights and saying ‘hey friends maybe we should all re-evaluate the system in which we operate and how it might be causing us to betray the vows we swore’ he’d be met with disdain. No one told him that, like Percival, he might look back to his mother’s home and see what has become of it (and his sister whom he left) and upon making the decision to go back to it he dies before he can even get his foot out of the gate. Percival made it back home and Jon might too, but where Percival still had his mother’s shirt to remind him of his boyhood Jon had to kill the boy because the fate of the world depended on it. Jon stumbles and rises, only to stumble again. But nonetheless, he gets to be a knight. But on the other hand, there’s poor Bran! He doesn’t even get to fail at being a knight in the first place because that storyline was fucking taken from him before he could realize his dream of leaving his mother’s home. Jon at least got his call to action. Bran’s dazzling dream of knighthood doesn’t even get off the ground (quite literally). He climbs, falls immediately, and once his eyes are awakened he realizes that he is now incapable of being Percival as he’d wish to be. There’s no battling evil knights. There’s no saving fair maidens. But then he’s visited by a wizened old man who’s like ‘hey Percival, you can never be a knight but I’ll teach you how to be a mighty wizard!’ And that would be cool and all….BUT BRAN WANTS TO BE A KNIGHT GODDAMNIT! When he auditioned for the medieval lit play, he picked up the Percival/Arthur script. Yet that’s not what he ultimately got when the cast list finally got out. Because who the fuck switched it out his hero-knight script for the Merlin one??! So now he has to try and figure out how to be a knight who’s actually a wizard, and it fucking sucks y’all.”

[agentrouka-blog]

Dany fan here: I think other Dany fans think Jonsas are over the top with Dany hate because of pol!Jon. I follow many Jonsas because I’m perfectly fine with Jonsa. It’s not for me but I see the vision. That said I’m a bit of an unusual Dany fan in the sense that I’m a big fan of the Meereenese Knot essays and think the interpretation of Dany presented there is pretty spot on. I personally think Dany has a good heart but that circumstance and experience and terrible coping mechanisms have led her to act in villainous ways and whether or not a character is a villain is determined by their actions regardless of whatever goodness is in their heart. But anyway I do not like the pol!Jon theory. I think it’s out of character for Jon and needlessly cruel to Dany. I think it’s possible that he ultimately kills her and that could be fine and I don’t reject that theory, but I think the idea of Jon deceiving and sexually abusing Dany and then killing her for the sake of Sansa is what Dany fans think of when they think of over the top hate because they assume every Jonsa shipper also believes in pol!Jon.

I do understand why people thought Jon was deceiving Dany in the show though because their relationship was just so poorly executed and Kit and Emilia had no chemistry on screen. Imagine fucking up your show’s romance so badly that people think the script confirming that the love was mutual must have been tampered with.

Hi there!

(I think Dany is a compelling tragic villain, and it's lovely seeing someone loving her for it!)

I do think that pol!Jon (under duress, esentially) is a not unreasonable theory that grew out of the way the show presented their relationship. If there was sexual abuse I think it's fair to say it was in the hands of the more powerful party, though.

That said, I don't see it happening that way in the books at all and I think all characters will be better off for it. I agree it wouldn't feel right.

Certainly not in a punitive "you thought he would love you but he really loves Sansa, now die!!!" way. That cheapens jonsa as much as it cheapens the complexity of the conflict between Dany and Jon.

It's just a deeply uninteresting way to explore their existing conflict or their respective strengths. Not to be a hater but it's not exactly riveting literature watching Dany be manipulated by Daario and it's unlikely to be more so in a repeat performance with Jon who isn't even her type. Same as watching Jon go through a repeat of the abusive Ygritte plotline would be less than compelling.

We'll have instances of romantic manipulation. Littlefinger is practically begging Sansa to use his own obsession against him, and Arya gives us a preview when she lures Raff to his death wearing "Mercy's" face. That's been set up since the first book, and it works as a satisfying response to the way everyone has been telling Sansa how weak and simple she is. It's very personal, very steeped in their respective histories, very poetic.

But for Jon and Dany I think we can expect something more universal and even-handed than that. They are both at varying points manipulative and earnest, highly clever or unexpectly outmaneuvered. And neither will be in this conflict all alone and without advice. Not to mention, we have both of their POVs and watching one just miss all the clues of the other manipulating them would be flat. This only ever works with one POV withheld. The show tried that with Jon Snow live on the screen, to disastrous results. No way is that GRRM's plan.

I'd rather watch two clever adversaries play a big game of chess. And given GRRM's love for that game, I am certain it's also what he would prefer to write.

[esther-dot]

Myrcella and Trystane had better chemistry than Jonerys despite less screen time. Myrcella had better reaction of her parentage as it was more family moment than Jon parentage.

They were so sweet!

It’s absolutely baffling to me that D&D had no trouble delivering romantic pairings that were believable except for their epic romance of the series. I personally don’t hold the actors responsible or even really blame lack of chemistry (in the 8x04 scene Kit acted Jon kissing Dany just fine), and think the problem was in the writing and D&D’s failure to decide what they were doing?

I wrote this a few years ago:

It’s so weird that D&D wanted to present J*nerys as forbidden love when the only thing that prevented them from getting together in s7 was…nothing.

Tyrion and Dany planned for a strategic marriage back in s6, we even have the Littlefinger/Sansa convo in s7 to clarify that a Jon/Dany marriage would make the most political sense, and Jon might “want” to marry her.

If they were meant to be a parallel to Jon/Ygritte, love between two soldiers on opposite sides of the war…well, that just doesn’t work when Jon and Dany are the ones in power.  If J*nerys was meant to be a parallel to Rhaegar/Lyanna…that comparison doesn’t make sense because a Jon/Dany union would have been the political solution, not a problem (pre-parentage reveal). Missandei dismisses the bastard issue, and since a marriage alliance would could have ended their stalemate in s7, the writers left no reason for Jon (or the advisers) not to suggest it. And it would have been far more believable that Jon suggest that than try to father a bastard with Dany (considering his trauma surrounding that issue). The only in-world reason they left us with for why Jon didn’t suggest marriage during s7 is that he didn’t want to.

It was on the writers’ minds because of that convo between Littlefinger and Sansa, so clearly they thought of it and just opted never to explain it in s8. Which means D&D tied the culmination of the show to a relationship that they hoped we would see as star-crossed love when the story they gave us said it wasn’t.

(link)

And, not only did they not pick a specific approach to make it overall make sense, they didn’t have heartwarming moments where J/D seemed to actually connect as equals. All their scenes involved political disagreements or reminders of Dany’s ambition. Well, all but the sex scene but they didn’t give any context for that, we just had them and Bran’s voiceover (he did nothing to deserve that!) in a very off-putting scene. The decisions were all so determinedly bad with them! I have watched couples that make me care about them in-spite of awful writing, but it’s unreal to me that D&D didn’t actually sit down and figure out what their angle was and the result was a toxic mess. So much of the impact of the finale rested on the horror of Jon killing Dany that it is inexcusable they failed there. I suppose at that point they could have been so checked out that they didn’t make sure the scripts aligned, but we’ve been told how they micromanage the performances so without a coherent thought behind the J/D story, and with them feeding ideas without a clear picture of what they were up to, I think they made it very difficult for the actors to do much.

Anyway, it really is amazing that such a huge chunk of s7 was dedicated to getting J/D to bang, and everyone (fans and critics) complained about how awful the relationship was while D&D had no difficulty with delivering other romantic pairings like Myrcella and Trystane that weren’t as pivotal to the ending of the series. I think that habit of changing the story in the editing process bit them in the ass big time with J/D because that relationship was just so jarring, I have to think they were going back and forth on different ideas and that contributed to how off it was. I wasn’t a shipper, was the most casual of fans when I first watched s7, but I didn’t enjoy any of their scenes. All were deeply unpleasant, and usually, there’s a breaking point where the characters connect emotionally and it draws you in and you see how they’re good for each other/make each other happy/or if it’s a toxic ship, you have that undeniable chemistry and believe they’re inexorably drawn to each other. But nope! I got nothin. When I watched the finale I thought D&D had been working against their own story during s7-8, and I still can’t figure out what the hell they were thinking.

I agree about Myrcella’s parentage reveal too. I can still remember her face when she’s talking to Jaime. It was presented in an emotional/relational context which makes it matter to the audience, but I actually can’t remember the specific words Jon says when he’s told, just that he was angry and stormed away. He tells Dany “it’s true. I know it is” so we know he accepts it, but I don’t know what to make of his feelings. Is he upset with Rhaegar? Ned? Is he ok with being a Targ? Did he wish he wasn’t? How did he come to accept it so quickly? What inside of him told him this was true? None of that mattered to D&D, they wanted to get Dany angry, isolated, and paranoid. That was all the use they had for parentage reveal. 😩

[kellyvela]

The makers were trying to make Jonerys Jon×Ygritte 2.0 in last season and failed supremely. Even though I hate Ygritte atleast in show her character and Jon has chemistry. While Jon and Aunty were boring and bland.

Also Jon never tried to kill Ygritte even though she tried to kill him and gave her proper funeral. Jon killed Dany, Drogon took away her body and Jon was like 😐.

I basically agree.

[lupinusalbus]

What did you think of Kit’s Freudian comment at the con? I’ve seen people dismiss it as a thoughtless statement and others say it means he thinks Jon’s previous romantic relationships are abusive. How did you take it?

It’s a very complex question. One of the things that immediately struck me about Kit Harington’s comments was that he was speaking about the characters of Ygritte and Dany in a different context than what I often see written about them on Tumblr. What I mean to say is that Kit accepts both of these women as having been in "love" relationships with Jon Snow, in the sense that Kit thinks that Jon really loved them. During a different question from the one where the reference to Freud came up, Kit said that Jon loved Dany “fiercely”, but then she “turns a corner”, necessitating that Jon kill her. So Kit seems to accept that Jon loved both of them.

As Kit also said during the Q&A sessions, Jon is not a modern man. Because of the cultural context of Westeros, I don’t think Jon ultimately viewed Ygritte as a sexual abuser, as we might very well see their relationship by today’s standards, or in "meta" readings of their relationship. Yet, because of Jon’s youth and personality, and also his status as a kind of spy among the Wildlings, he is definitely the less assertive partner. Kit seems to be saying that there is something about Jon that causes him to be attracted to a “dominant” woman like Ygritte. The reference to Freud means that he is somehow tracing Jon’s propensity back to Catelyn’s treatment of him.

I don’t know though. I feel like a lot of their dynamic has more to do with Jon’s temperament than it does with his “mommy issues.” Think of other characters in the TV version, such as Theon before he was castrated, or other male characters who we might think of as being sexually bold, or at times even coercive or abusive to women (as is so often the status quo in Westeros). They would have had fewer qualms and tortured feelings about sleeping with Ygritte than Jon did, because …Jon is Jon. He seems sexually conservative (and a better person) by nature.  He experiences guilt over breaking his vows, is tortured by the thought of fathering a bastard, and so on. It takes someone like Ygritte, who is assertive sexually (like in the cave scene in the TV series) for him to break his vows. (Note: I know the circumstances are somewhat different and more controversial in the books). I’m not sure how much of this has something to do with Catelyn Stark.

I suppose the story would go something like this: Jon’s self esteem or self-confidence around women was so wounded or messed up by his interactions with Catelyn, that he is now attracted to women who are the controllers or the seducers rather than the other way around. But it could also be due to the natural reticence around women that he seems to possess by temperament.

As for Dany: in order to analyze Kit’s remarks its necessary to take him at his word that Jon loved Dany. We only have the show version of Jon and Dany, but there are definitely some parallels with Ygritte. In their first interaction, Dany attempts to dominate Jon by insisting that he bend the knee, hinting that he will become her prisoner, and so on. As the scripts progress, It seems like she is the one who becomes infatuated by Jon first, and then she flies north of the wall to try and rescue him. He may be attracted to her, but he is also kind of the passive one who eventually capitulates. Is this why Kit thinks Jon is attracted to Dany, because of her assertive qualities, where he also seems to be overlooking the aggressive tendencies? Also, the circumstance of Jon suddenly bending the knee when he didn’t have to do it in order to gain Dany’s support seems to add more fuel to this fire.  I can only assume that this dynamic, as written for the show, is what Kit is talking about. 

In neither of these two relationships was Jon the pursuer. Maybe Kit wants Jon to have a more balanced relationship in the sequel :)

[janiedean]

25th hour and city of thieves I never read the book so why did you compare them to jaime jon and ygritte

eeeeh it's been years since I dealt with either and god why do I even have to admit benioff can write when he wants to but anyway

25th hour has nothing to do with asoiaf it's just a really good script and it turned into a really good movie

the thing with city of thieves is... okay tldr the basic plot is two russian men (lev and kolya) are taken prisoner during the leningrad siege and are promised freedom if they manage to find eggs to bake a birthday cake for the daughter of the guy who arrested them (obv hard to find during a siege where everyone was dying of hunger), they go around trying to find the eggs, at some point they go out of town in this mansion where they supposedly had a bunch of chickens and it turns out that the mansion is full of girls who were kept there as nazi prisoners for you can imagine which reasons, they team up with the local partisans to save them, the partisans include a young girl named vika who is v good at warfare and eventually falls in love with lev, blah blah blah not spoiling things but at the end they have to separate then *she* finds him post-war bringing eggs, he tells her they can make an omelette and she replies she can't cook, that was your basic plot thing is, lev is a 17yo bucket of walking angst who has Issues because his father was arrested and deported by the government because he was too much of a free thinker for them and jewish, bad combination when it comes to stalin government (as far as I recall), doesn't really want to admit that he might be dead-dead at least in the beginning, doesn't talk too much and isn't too social, also being jewish he already felt singled out and like he had to mix/blend/be better than his father or smth like that kolya was taken prisoner for being a deserter, doesn't appreciate authority all that much, cracks bad jokes all the time and irritates lev bc he doesn't take shit seriously except when he gets serious when it comes to saving the girls used as unwilling prostitutes, if I don't recall wrong he was extremely attractive/charming vika basically was going guerrilla stuff, was a better shot than them, went at lev every other moment like I know way mroe than you about stuff (which she did btw), was the one pursuing him more actively and I don't remember if she was a redhead or not but like... the personality fit the bill now like idk if it was obvious from my bad summary and ofc there were differences (like for one kolya had a nice active sex life with a bunch of female friends instead of yknow toxic rship with his twin) but when it comes to character archetypes/personalities lev and jon were pretty much the same deal from the teenage angst to the daddy issues to needing to keep the family name honorable, jaime and kolya had a good 70% of basic traits in common and vika and ygritte were the exact same type including the romance where they make the first move and not being stereotypical feminine which is why idg why the fuck benioff managed to write a book with three main chars that are the exact same archetypes as jon jaime and ygritte with the obvious differences and then completely fucking up adapting jon/jaime in the series because if he could write city of thieves there is absolutely no way he actually misread the og characters nor didn't realize what they were there for so...................... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ idk and I guess I never will but if I wrote an asoiaf au of city of thieves with that recast no one would bat an eyelid, I compared them because they're the same tropes obv written different and in another context but it was so glaringly obvious I'm still asking myself wtf went wrong there almost ten years later

anyway as much as it pains me to say city of thieves was actually a pretty good book so like idk if anyone feels like obtaining it through whichever mean they find most ethical when it comes to maybe or not financing benioff it's not a waste of your time

[thelustybraavosimaid]

Bryan Cogman, second only to D&D in stupidity, says Jon finding out his parentage means he was never meant to be King and that he was meant to just go Beyond the Wall like Ygritte wanted. Those idiots didn’t understand Jon’s character in the slightest. I’m partially really really really hoping (only partially because most important is they all survive) that Jon and Dany become King and Queen in the books because it would prove once and for all that those idiots didn’t understand the story George was telling in the slightest. There’s still idiots who think the books will have the same ending as the show

Paul Haas, the fantasy author’s representative, had this to say when asked about the destination of the as-yet-incomplete book series:

George loves Dan and Dave, but after season 5 he did start to worry about the path they were [going down] because George knows where the story goes. He started saying, ‘You’re not following my template’. The first 5 seasons stuck to George’s roadmap. Then they went off George’s roadmap.

[Source]

In the early seasons, Martin wrote and read scripts, consulted on casting decisions and visited sets. Over time, however, as he stepped back to focus on his long-delayed next ‘Thrones’ novel, ‘The Winds of Winter,’ Martin grew estranged from the show.

“By Season 5 and 6, and certainly 7 and 8, I was pretty much out of the loop,” Martin said of his involvement with “Game of Thrones.” Asked why he grew estranged from the show, Martin did not cite his work on “The Winds of Winter” and instead said, “I don’t know — you have to ask Dan and David.”

[Literally nothing else to say here.]

[la-pheacienne]

More thoughts from an Alicent fan: I feel like a lot of problems within the fan base of both GoT and HotD come from the need to pit women against each other. So many Sansa fans hate Dany and vice versa but I don’t think they really organically hate these characters, I think they just take it on as a part of loving one female character, that she has to have a hated female counterpart. I can’t think of a single major female character I truly hate from either series. I was never a big Ygritte or Mysaria fan but I don’t hate them. Dany is my all time favorite character and I relate to her so much and other fans have assumed I must hate Sansa when really the two of them have a lot of parallels in their narratives and the fact that the show didn’t explore that pisses me off. Likewise people will assume I don’t like Rhaenyra just because I like Alicent. It’s silly. Rhaenyra deserves the throne and I love her! I think some fans just like to have conflict and they like to be opposed to something so they’ll always find reasons to hate once they’ve “picked a side.”

Hello anon! I will answer your ask after ages, sorry.

So, I feel that my point of view is relevant in this discussion since I initially was a Sansa Stan, before even watching GoT, when it first aired. Yeah. So in short, everybody started watching GoT all of the sudden, I wasn't really into a lot of TV shows at the time, mainly books and cinema, and I was sick of all the buzz. Part of the buzz was all of my friends saying I HATE SANSA GOD I HATE HER SO MUUUUUUCH all the time all around. When I asked guys wtf did Sansa do and you hate her so fucking much, they were all like SHE'S WHINING AND SNIVELLING ALL THE TIME AND SHE DOESN'T DO ANYTHING USEFUL SHE'S ANNOYING AF AND ARYA IS SO COOOL BLABLABLABLA yeah noise in my ears basically. Then I realised that this girl actually didn't do anything that bad it's just that she was a spoiled little girl being annoying at her sister and that's literally it. This was a story about literal monsters and everybody was literally bitching about Sansa. Literally. So I became her stan purely out of reaction at how unfairly she was treated by the fandom initially. Of course later on I actually became invested in ASOIAF and GOT and my interest in Sansa diminished, I saw how stupidly the writers treated her and Arya's arc, it literally didn't make any sense, Arya was indeed almost destroyed just to make Sansa be more important than she needed to be. That's a fact.

So fact number one, people did in fact hate Sansa from the start. There was actual hate there since the beginning. I remember it in my circle of friends and I wasn't in any internet fandom at the time thank god.

Fact number two, the arc that the show adopted gave birth to deranged Sansa stans on the basis of a huge mischaracterisation of Sansa. She was given the arc of other characters, she was made the perfect victim of abuse, again and again, and then she was given a ruling arc, then the joke of a ship that is Jonsa appeared and the combination of all these things plus the internalised misogyny of all parts involved completely ruined the fandom I think. Sansa stans hated Dany because she got in the way of their ship and she was also pretty and hot plus powerful, which Sansa wasn't, Dany and Arya stans hated Sansa because they were sick of the mischaracterisation and stupid script, and it all went downhill.

It's the writing of the show that caused this, mainly, by creating a conflict that shouldn't exist and is downright stupid. There should be no conflict between Sansa and Dany, none, zero. The North shouldn't be represented by Sansa, it should be represented by Jon Bran or Arya, they should have had the conflict with Dany, not Sansa. It's Arya's storyline that strongly parallels Dany, not Sansa. Sure ok both were raped, but I vehemently REFUSE to see women characters as just victims of abuse. Just because two women were victims of abuse doesn't mean they have things in common. Being victims is not all there is to these characters. Arya had the same experience as Dany (fugitive, restless, passionate with justice, anti conformist, challenging males, seeking home plus their identity crisis) all these things make them similar that's why a conflict-alliance-any sort of contact between them could have been very interesting. Instead we got this stupidity that was season 7 and 8.

Frankly this never-ending war between Sansa stans and Dany stans is extremely exhausting to me. But I understand it because that's what being in a fandom does to you. Now that I am in HOTD fandom I am immerged in it and I get it. Of course I am not objective, I love Dany, I love Sansa, but I don't believe she should be Queen in the North. I don't have a problem with Sansa but her stans are in fact deranged. They are deranged because they can be, because the plot gave them enough ground to work on. Ironically, I would have loved Sansa much more if I never came in contact with her stans. Same with Alicent.

TL;DR: Conflicts between female characters are inevitable, and necessary, when their interests are diametrically opposed. Alicent and Rhaenyra are enemies and should be enemies. Yes you can sympathize with both, but that doesn't stop you from picking a side. You can pick the side of the Blacks and sympathise with Alicent. Sansa and Dany conflict shouldn't even exist, it's not like Alicent and Rhaenyra's case. The writers created that conflict and divided the fandom for nothing. In both cases, a great deal of the hate is actually a reaction to the deranged stans, not the characters themselves.

In any case anon, if you can avoid the fandom war, DO IT. It's better. Sympathise with any person you want, nobody can say that just because you love one character you can't love the other. That's stupid.

[majesticfem-fashion]

🧧His Gift 🧧

As Christmas Time by Christina Aguilera Plays in Background

Featuring: Vipera, Focus Poses and Punklist

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Cute Holiday Earrings with a Hud for customization, with the Fur, Metals and Gems, Unrigged Earrings with resizer script.

🎄Focus Pose: Christmas Red Room Backdrop and Make it a December to Remember Poses Located now at Tres Chic. (Props Included)

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[mortaele]

𝐬𝐡𝐞     𝐬𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝𝐚'      𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐲𝐞𝐝.      been      here.      she      could     have      helped     him    ,      saved      him    ,     killed      them.      buried      arrows      in       each        of       their     traitor      faces.     but      she      didn’t       stay.      she      didn’t       help.      and      now      he      was      dead.      so      here       she       sat.      eyes       locked      onto       the      murderers       who’s      hands      were      bound      ,      and      they       glared       back.         did       they      really      think      the      free     folk      wouldn’t      come      back      for      vengeance     ?        she      could      practically     hear      it      -        the     sound      her      arrow      would      make       flying      into      their      hearts       ,      the      sound     they      would      make      gasping      for      their     last      few      breaths.       she’d     been      told      not      to       touch     ‘em     ,      but     she     didn’t      know      how      much      longer      she’d      be      able     to      manage      that.       the      blade      at      her     hip      craved      BLOOD.

hands      hadn’t      stopped      shaking.     heart      hadn’t     stopped     pounding.      and      the      wretched     feeling     in     her      gut      had      yet      to     subside.         ‘     ygritte    !     ’       head     snaps     towards      the      direction      of       her      name.      tormund.      jaw      clenched     ,      hard     ,       she     stands     ,     eyes      watching      the     DEAD      MEN       until      they       were      out      of       sight.      “     what     ?     ”      tone’s      harsh     ,        she’s      angry.       he      turns      to      face       her        and      the      look       on      his       face      isn’t      something      she’s      seen      before.        he’s      startled.      scared     maybe     ?      again    -       “     what     ?    ”      concern      trickling     into      her       voice.       tormund     doesn’t      say      another       word    ,      just     gestures     to      the        room       her       lover      laid       dead      in.      she’d      already      seen       his       body     ,      and      soon      they’d      burn       his      body.       instead      of       asking       another       unanswered      question     ,      quick      strides       lead      her      towards       the       cracked      door     ,     pushing     it      open.      steps      freeze.       breath      hitches.       her       lover      no      longer      laid     on      the      wooden      table.      he      sat     in      a      chair    ,      cloak     wrapped      around      him.      eyes       open.      breathing.      alive.         davos       at      his       side.      

“     no     ,    ”       she      mutters     ,      to        herself.       “      you      were      cold.    ”       her       voice      trembles.      his      eyes       were      still      brown     ,        and     a     flush     had     begin      to      return     to      his      cheeks.      she      doesn’t      realize     ,      but      tears      have      welled     in      her     eyes.       a       few        slow       steps      move      her     forward     ,       doing      nothing      but        watching      him.      how      could      this     be       ?         dropping      to      her     knees      in      front     of       him.     a     broken       sob.       “      you      were       cold.    ”      words       are      muttered      over      and      over.      hands     pull     at     the      cloak      ,      revealing     unhealed       wounds.      “     you      were       dead.       i      saw      you.      i      felt       you.    ”         eyes      wide     ,      she     doesn’t      believe     it.      she     can’t      believe     it.     people      didn’t      come     back     from     a      knife     in     the     heart     ,      not       as      themselves.       it       couldn’t      be       REAL.       

        plotted     starter    !           (    @mudwoven​​     )

[reginarubie]

Hello! I'm obsessed with your jonsa works and just saw the ask, asking about whether or not you think jonsa is canon. I thought so too but Jon died for Arya saying I want me bride back 3 times and his last thoughts were stick them with the pointy end. And GRRM said that asides from the details the ending has always been the same, like the original script that was leaked. What do you think of that? I'm still on the fence about believe they're canon, either way I love them 💙💙

Ciao anon!,

First of all thank you, I am happy you enjoy my Jonsa works, sadly I haven't been able to update them as regularly as I'd like but alas real life can be a pain in the side sometimes.

Also, post being reference to x.

While thinking the original outline could bear some importance in the endgame plot might be worrying, I think we forget, though, that while the underlying of the original outline might be the same ‘Stark girl + Tyrion + Jon love triangle’ which should have featured Arya as the Stark girl in truth it has featured as the Stark girl Sansa. So when Martin says that the original outline might still serve to hint toward the end I think he means the trope of ‘brother and sister turned cousin triangle with Tyrion’ and who is the Stark girl Martin married to Tyrion in the books? Sansa.

Also, he dies for Arya that's true. He dies to go save her from Ramsay with the resounding ‘I want my bride back’ and his last thought is of Arya; and I think Martin is very much playing on the whole siblinghood vs courteous love trope here, with this passage:

Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest.  — Jon XIII, ADWD

He puts Ygritte, his supposed love interested between his two sisters, so I think that to see which one is the one who will end up being his possible romantical partner (as I've stated in the why I ship Jonsa post) we have to analyse how he fell in love with Ygritte:

Ygritte was safe territory, she reminded Jon of Arya because she was wild and unruly and her hair were always a mess — sibling stuff — but the romantic stuff comes in when Ygritte sits near the fire, which bathes her pretty red hair in warm light as she sings which is something associated basically only with Sansa of the big female characters. Even with Val, he is attracted to her mostly when her hair look like honey (darker than blond and yet not brown) and because of her diplomatic and lady-like sensibilities, he is attracted to the fact that Val would turn heads in whichever court (something that speaks of Sansa so loud I'm going to cry in a corner); and he finds compelling and lovely to a point Satin capability of reading a room and know his social standing during the wedding feast, also his sweetness and the way he is gentle and kind, all characterisations he shares with Sansa (of whose Tyrion of all people speak about in these very terms during the feast for Joffrey's wedding — like we see the parallel here, don't we?), Jon himself knows he always wanted the lady-love who'd be some great lady of a great keep and gave him children, which coincidentally happens to be Sansa's dream and part of what her arc is about.

Also, another pointer at his, might be held in this book reference (I still have to analyse it in depth and it has been sitting in my ask-box for days but I digress):

Then I'd push him in a stream or throw a bucket o' water on him. Anyhow, men shouldn't smell sweet like flowers." "What's wrong with flowers?" "Nothing, for a bee. For bed I want one o' these." Ygritte made to grab the front of his breeches. — Jon V, ASOS

This is reminiscent to me of the scene on the show, of which I don't think there is a counterpart in the books (save for this one) in which Jon tells Ygritte he'd like to see her in a silk dress, and she has been mocking his romantic ways, so Jon backtracks and tries to play it off as something sultry (but all us book readers know how romantic Jon is at heart):

It's because this is what reminds Jon of Arya, the unwillingness of being lady-like, being wild and messy, but what Jon dreams about is a lady in a great keep, wearing silk he could tear off her body after he has admired her in it (‘I like the wolf bit’ — Jon Snow, s6 👀, like I see you Jonny boy, I see ya); also Jon connects his talking to girls to Sansa's and her teachings (‘Gilly he called me for the gillyflower’ ‘that's pretty’).

So I think that when Martin speaks of the original outline, he actually speaks of the idea of the triangle between Jon/Stark girl who reaches him North+ Tyrion and we know in the canon he published that girl is Sansa, and not the specificity of it with Arya inside.

Also as I've already said in the post you mentioned, I want to believe and hope that Martin will give us more than little crumbs and inner dialogue, but I very much think as plausible that Jonsa will play a very important part in the story while remaining something only innerly acknowledged by both of them leaving the open ending and thus the potentiality of it without exploring it further.

Also all the foreshadowing he has with Sansa is soft and subtle while that he has with Arya is way too blunt, it's like Martin wants to use it to deceive and hide the true endgame. But that might be only wishful thinking on my part, tho it does feel that way!

Either way I'll be shipping them even if they don't end up together in canon!, so there's two of us, loving 'em even if they don't end up being canonically together!

Again thank you for your ask, and I hope you keep on enjoying my works!, several chapters will be updated soon, so stay tuned! Sending all my love ❤️ ~G.

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

love all your jonsa metas!!! your last one made me wonder, what do you think they were intending for jonsa before they changed their minds. longing looks? would they have admitted their feelings? more? i know there’s not much to go on, but all the ned and cat callbacks scream marriage and kids. do you think there was a version where jonsa had a happy ending?

Hi there, Nonnie! Awww thank you so much! You are very kind!!!! =D Sorry for the delayed response to your ask, but I wanted to really think on it and give you the most honest answer when thinking about these two. I got a bit wordy in my reply here but what a fascinating topic and a fantastic question! 

Do I think there was a version where Jonsa had a happy ending? Short answer: yes. In the essence that I think they at least discussed it at least once when coming up with the endings for Jon and Sansa, and House Stark as a whole. The heavy foreshadowing they layered into season 7 and season 8 for these two was too specific and too complex for them to not have at least talked about it once in the writing room, whether to build up the audience’s expectations and subvert them or at least to use it as a background kind of idea in order to layer the foreshadowing properly. (D&D actually were very good in dealing with the specifics of this show, down to the tiniest detail, at least Dan was anyway, but I think their egos and wanting to stay away from any predictability and garnering for shock value won out unfortunately which resulted in the crappy writing decisions we ended up getting, i.e. Jaime’s redemption arc nuked, Cersei vs the ceiling, etc) From the Ned/Cat callbacks they did, right down to the dialogue (I recently came across this in a season 1 rewatch and it blew my mind how close they kept the mirroring - x), to the parallels between both characters, and then to Jon choosing to keep his promise to protect Sansa by killing Dany (the confirmation in dialogue of what Jon chose in the end and his 100% mirroring to Ned - x). So yes, I definitely think there was a very skeletal basis they came up with for a Jonsa endgame, or their part of the infamous love triangle, anyways.

Sansa has four bastards in her story line: Joffrey, Ramsay, Tyrion, and Jon - Joffrey was supposedly legitimate when we know he wasn’t; Ramsay is legitimized by Roose; Tyrion is a legitimate Lannister but is treated like a bastard son and even calls himself that: “All dwarves are bastards in their fathers’ eyes”; Jon is never legitimized but we know his true identity by the end of season 7 - so it only makes sense that they were going in this direction, without all of the other clues and foreshadowing, all of the callbacks visually and in dialogue - not to mention: Joffrey - South, Tyrion - South, Ramsay - North, Jon - North -- it would have only kept this pattern/arc going for Sansa had they explicitly confirmed a Jonsa romance

Jon had four women with the color red show interest in him whose interest he returned, if not somewhat: Ygritte - red hair, “kissed by fire”; Melisandre - red hair, priestess of the flame/R'hllor; Dany - Targaryen red & “fire and blood”; Sansa - red hair, “kissed by fire” - it would only make sense to continue this pattern/arc for Jon had they continued with Sansa - Jon loved Ygritte, Jon was attracted to Melisandre, Jon was attracted to Dany and loved/cared for her... Well, we know how he felt about Sansa subtextually (and he knew how she felt about him through that 8x06 script confirmation) though never explicitly

Sansa had been married 2 times: Tyrion and Ramsay - the foreshadowing hints/clues they gave were leading us to anticipate a third wedding to close out this arc for Sansa

Sansa was given away at her weddings by: Joffrey (who she escaped from) and Theon (who she escaped with) - both characters were supposed to protect her but failed, for different reasons - while some might think this points to Jon as being the one to succeed in protecting her and give her away at her third wedding to someone else, the only other character who succeeded in protecting Sansa (or more specifically, had Sansa’s back like Jon did pre-Dany & armed Sansa to protect herself) was Arya “In the winter, we must protect ourselves -- look after one another” - even though they work together and are a team, Arya sort of takes Jon’s place besides Sansa once they’ve reconciled, as the wolf supporting the other wolf like in Sansa’s crown if you will, plus she has that special relationship with Jon (and I really do believe my girl Arya knows something is up or has at the very least changed between J&S) so I think Arya would have given Sansa away at her wedding to Jon 

We know Sansa loves stories and songs, that she wanted a romance with a prince - she fancied herself in love with Joffrey who was a prince in name, but not an actual prince (in chivalry and legitimacy), Joffrey never protects her and instead abuses her; Jon is not a prince but it turns out that he actually is (in chivalry and legitimacy), he protects her and never abuses her - not to mention this little nugget in 7x01: “Joffrey never let anyone question his authority. Do you think he was a good king?” “Do you think I’m Joffrey?” “You’re as far from Joffrey as anyone I’ve ever met” - even though this is about Jon’s ruling/kingship style, it’s also important to note the link they made here, she could have talked about Cersei, she could have mentioned Robert, but she mentioned Joffrey - why? to equate Jon’s role to Joffrey’s, not only to help move the story into the direction of her warning Jon to be smarter than Ned and Robb as well as showing how Jon is as King (leading to his identity endgame) & how different he is to a tyrant like Joffrey, which Sansa has definitely seen before - Jon is the prince she didn’t anticipate, the hero she was convinced actually didn’t exist when her naivete was stripped away from her, the good and honorable and fair King they all should have had - Jon is now linked to Joffrey and the fact that they look like Ned and Cat while saying this, walking the catwalk above the courtyard together, that the Maester interrupts them as a visual framing callback event to a Ned and Cat scene from season 1, just further validates it

Jon and Sansa parallel each other in a way that complements them coming together/meeting in the middle, of their journeys/story lines - Dany and Sansa also have parallels but they parallel in the way that their journeys/story lines come to the same point in a way, meaning going from A-Z, same with Jon and Dany & Cersei and Dany, regardless of who decided to do what in the end - Jon started at Z and went to A, Sansa started at A and went to Z - Sansa started as a trueborn Stark, went from hostage to bastard to hostage again to Stark in Winterfell; Jon started as a bastard Stark, went from Night’s Watch to Lord Commander to King in the North to Warden Of the North to a trueborn Targaryen to traitor/bastard (in a way) and Night’s Watch again to King-Beyond-the-Wall (my personal take of his ending) - it only makes sense to have these two to meet in the middle of their journeys (like they do in season 6), they complement each other very strongly, besides the obvious foreshadowing hints and parallels (i.e. Little Bird & Lord Crow, them both wanting to leave home in the beginning vs them wanting to be back home towards the end & neither wanting to be South in KL) 

I know I’ve mentioned this previously but I will keep talking about this until the cows come home: you can’t have a love triangle with only one two lines, meaning there has to be something on Sansa’s side and Jon’s side in order for it to work to be a triangle, same goes for Jon’s and Dany’s sides, not to mention how Dany and Sansa are paralleled all throughout the series, visually and story/arc wise (that’s their connecting line in the triangle) - it was always going to come down to these two characters on who Jon was going to choose, no matter the reason, since he is the pinnacle point of the triangle (is that the right term? lol) & they represented each of his sides (Stark and Targaryen, he wanted to be both but couldn’t, not with Dany going dark and Sansa & Dany not getting along)

Jon mirrors Ned very strongly and not just in looks but also the choices he makes and the way he conducts himself, as well as his story line - if you take Sansa out of the equation for a minute, looking at the Jon and Dany throne room scene again in 8x06, that’s literally a mirror to the scene between Ned and Cersei in season 1 - it had different dialogue, different circumstances, and Ned’s scene was not about Jon or Sansa but Robert, but in essence it’s a mirror, Cersei was paralleled to Dany heavily, Jon was mirroring Ned (and Jaime somewhat) - Jon could have given Dany the same choice, to flee, but not only would she not have, she would have killed Jon and did what she wanted anyway, or if by some small miracle she did, she would be back with Drogon, ultimately Sansa (and the Starks by extension) would never be safe - Jon did what he had to, Ned wasn’t able to make that decision - love vs duty: protecting “those he loves most” vs the honorable thing in giving Cersei and her children a chance to flee (even though Ned chose love over duty when choosing to honor Lyanna’s request & protect Jon, and confessing his treason to protect Sansa before being executed) which not only led to his demise, Sansa being taken hostage, Arya’s needing to flee, Robb’s and Catelyn’s eventual deaths, and Robert’s death but also paved the way for Joffrey (and Cersei/the Lannisters) to take over - even these lines showcase the two men being in these positions even more so: “It was your mercy that killed the king” (1x08) & “We can’t hide behind small mercies” “The new world has to be a world of mercy. It has to be” - Jon wanted to make the same decision as Ned, he didn’t want to kill Dany, especially since she was family to him and he had some feelings for her, but ultimately he made the right choice in that scenario, one that Ned wasn’t capable of making when it came to Cersei (not killing her himself I mean but telling Robert right away, not warning her and giving her the time to plan and act)

And the fact that it’s confirmed that Jon is mirroring Ned completely in his story line, isn’t it interesting that they had Sansa cast in the Cat role so to speak? That they had her echo Cat not just for her own story line and the House Stark story line, but also in Ned’s world? They were definitely flirting with (and I would argue, contemplating) a Jonsa romance

I will always go back to the second last look Jon gave Sansa on that dock in 8x06 because ultimately there was no reason for it if he didn’t harbor feelings for her in some way, he had already memorized his siblings/cousins for the last time, there was no need for it unless there’s something there, something unfinished in a way - so the fact that they not only had Kit do this (I’m assuming this action wasn’t an acting choice) but kept it in the edited version of the episode that aired, while mirroring their final walks in the end while also mirroring visually the beginning shot with Longclaw to the beginning shot of 6x04 where Jon is getting ready to leave right before Sansa arrives and they’re reunited - yes, I am definitely sure they discussed the relationship as more than family at some point and definitely were layering it in while also confirming that Jon as Ned 2.0 chose to protect Sansa in the end and would eventually be at peace with it (as much as he could be)

They definitely had discussed it at least once in that writer’s room. There’s just way too much overt and subtle clues, way too much complex layering into the fabric of the their individual stories as well as the general one, and too many intentional decisions on their parts in editing, dialogue, and visual framing as well as costume and visual callbacks for them not to have.

As for how it would have played out had they acknowledged Jonsa explicitly with both Jon and Sansa together on screen or even a possible endgame, hmm... That’s interesting. I would venture a guess to say that I think it would have been a love that would have happened the same way Ned and Cat’s did, despite the obvious framing and parallels. The vibe I always got from show!Jonsa was a pure type of love, an almost chivalrous love if you will. (if that’s a term lol) To me, their love would have been quiet, would have been built “stone by stone”, and would have been true in the sense that they both would have ended up being happy eventually. (I also think they showcased this difference big time with the Jonerys romance, the Jonerys romance was not quiet by any means, there were no longing looks, on Jon’s side at least, there was no angst or tension in the same way they had with Jonsa scenes, very little to no build-up, not one where you would be expecting a big payoff, if I had been waiting for Jonerys I would have been very disappointed with boat sex being the big payoff I was supposed to wait for, no first kiss shown, straight into sex, after the physical has been so heavily emphasized and continues to be - Jon was never vulnerable with Dany, he was never really open with her, they really highlighted the differences between these two everywhere you looked) Sansa would have had someone who cares deeply for her, protects her (even when she doesn’t ask for it or necessarily want it), be a true Stark, who helped her to rebuild House Stark, values her input and rules equally with her as a true partner, respects her ruling/leadership capabilities and is equally compassionate for people, truly loves her for her and not looking to use her as a chess piece to climb the political ladder, and cares for their family and the North just as much as she does. Jon would have someone who sees him for who he truly is and not as a bastard (even if say Jon wasn’t really Aegon Targaryen), who values him as a Stark and part of the pack, who is open to and considers his input, who is truly loyal to him and wanted to lift him up to her station (if Sansa was still made QitN in the end) and values him as an equal, who cares for the North and their family & home just as deeply as he does, appreciates his ruling and/or leadership capabilities, is open to the Wildlings and is compassionate just as much as he is, not looking to use him as a chess piece in order to gain more power, and embraces who he is (even his Targaryen name) and not wanting him to hide his true identity. It would have been a very good match and an equal match at that based on the parallels made between them just as themselves in their own individual journeys, as well as their personalities complementing one another. Sure, they would argue and they would continue to frustrate one another at times, but ultimately they both learned how to work together (a lot of what we didn’t see on screen unfortunately, I for one would have liked to see the time in between 6x10 and 7x01 as they learned to co-rule together as KitN and Lady of Winterfell) and that regardless of any disagreements, pack was pack. Sansa grew as a leader through season 7 and very well into season 8. Jon unfortunately, while he ended up learning to take her advice at face value about being smarter than Ned and Robb in the end, didn’t completely grow as a leader (I think he had already reached the point he could have individually in those circumstances). The only growing in leadership that he did was sacrificing his kingship to save the North from the NK by bending the knee, and leading the planning for the battle for the NK. It’s almost kind of sad in a way, because Sansa grew in Jon’s absence, no matter how much she doubted herself at times, while Jon really didn’t have much growth in her absence (after season 6 I mean, he obviously had tremendous growth before then). But together, it would have been interesting to see their continuing growth as a unit, as a team. 

Had Dany never come along and the North had somehow survived the NK (meaning the end results would have been the same all across the board, i.e. Arya killing the NK, Theon dying, etc.), I think they would have grown even closer over time. Before Jon came back in season 8, I really believe Sansa was already in love with him. She really wanted Jon to remain as KitN, right to the end, and she wanted to remain in Winterfell, protected, safe, and no longer at the mercy of others while she helped Jon to rebuild their home and position as the main House in the North. I think Jon had feelings for her but he was never going to go there (pre-identity reveal) due to four things: 1) him being her half-brother, 2) him not wanting to dishonor Ned’s daughter or Ned himself in any way by sullying her with Ned’s bastard (I say this in the way I think Jon himself would have seen it) & becoming the new Jaime/Cersei dynamic while also not wanting to ruin her chances at happiness/her position & station and knowing that as Lady Stark she would need to remarry eventually & have children to keep House Stark going, 3) they could never marry (if Sansa returned his feelings and they loved each other) since the North would never accept it (if they were siblings) and he didn’t want to ever create a bastard child because he didn’t want them to go through what he did growing up, and 4) everything Sansa had been through up to that point, especially Ramsay. I think he absolutely would have kept it to himself and gone to the grave with that secret, continuing to love her from afar, whether he moved on with someone else or not. If somehow it got brought up between them, if say Sansa returned his feelings, I still don’t see him going for it and I don’t see him starting up a secret romance with her, no matter if she might be game or insistent on it. He always wants to protect her and I don’t see that changing despite their feelings for each other. And as far as incest goes, between two siblings, regardless of his and possibly Sansa’s feelings, I don’t see him going there. He has been taught since day one that this is a bad thing, like the rest of Westeros, and that this is most likely a contributing factor to Aerys’ madness and the Targaryen “madness”. So, I don’t see him diving into anything with Sansa based on this little fact alone, besides all of the other things. I know people have talked about Jon possibly being darker if he comes back in the books, but in the show, we didn’t see that darkness completely (except for the beating Ramsay scene in 6x09) and he seemed to be the same Jon, just changed. So I’m basing my opinion on this on what we saw presented. I still see him wanting to do the right thing (just like Ned), and do the right thing by Sansa.

If Jon found out his true identity and Sansa also was made aware & same as above (Dany had never come along), then I see something developing between them possibly, over time. It would be a slow burn, though, just like we saw starting in the show. Starks have married their cousins before in Westeros history (I think I saw that in Fire & Blood somewhere). But because of all the other factors, even if this one roadblock was removed, it would still take them some time to get there, but I do believe they would get there. I believe, depending on what happened with Jon’s true identity, she would have made Jon a legitimate Stark, married him, and had him rule the North with her side by side. They would have had children and continued House Stark after rebuilding it completely. As for who makes the first move, so to speak, that’s a tough one. I see Sansa being more vocal but I don’t see her pushing Jon. If Jon didn’t have to deal with the Dany situation and remained King in the North and had no NK to worry about, I still don’t see him being the one to bring it up, because I still see him trying to be considerate of Sansa, to respect her boundaries and give her space to be herself while not trying to make her uncomfortable, if that makes sense. But do I think he would have been as shut down (meaning this is absolutely not happening) as he would be if he was technically still her half-brother? No. I think he might very softly and very quietly be more open to the idea, though I do see it taking a long time. His self-worth issues are still too deeply ingrained in him, his moral compass is still pointing North (no pun intended, and this is not a bad thing imho), and his concern for her plays a huge factor into the speed of this romance happening. Unless there is an outside circumstance, say the King needs to marry or the Lady of Winterfell, or to unite the North or something. Then I see while he would be open to it, emotionally I think it would still take him some time. We get to see Sansa already there (in season 8 and the 8x06 script confirmation) so I don’t see her shying away from it at all. She’s confident, strong, and knows what (and who) she wants. So I guess, if I had to bet $, I’d say Sansa makes the first move between them.

Jon has always wanted a wife, a family, and home. I see him getting all three through Sansa. 

Sansa has always wanted to be loved for herself, the Pack/family, safety, and home. I see her getting all these things through Jon.

For the slow burn romance that I believe would have ensued, I think it would have had more longing looks, the angst and tension would have increased between them to a point that it would have had to be broken, and they both would have eventually reached a point where they were both ready to be together and continue to work together as a team to co-rule the North.

If we bring the Dany factor back in but pretend she never massacred KL, that Jon stayed with her in the South and she never ended up killing him for being a threat to her (let’s also pretend Varys never wrote to those people & is still alive), then I don’t see Jonsa together at all. I do however see the longing, angsty romance playing out behind the scenes. Jon did have feelings for Dany but he wasn’t in love with her. However, I see him being with Dany as long as she wants him, possibly even consenting to marriage if she proposed it, anything as long as it kept Sansa (and the Starks by extension) safe (if Dany kept pushing past the incest boundary that he kept putting up). (just like Ned saying he committed treason in season 1) Not only would he be fulfilling his promise to Dany to help her take back the IT, but he also would be doing the honorable thing by her and marrying her, even if she never got pregnant from their trysts. It almost would have been a Lancelot and Guinevere situation, without the affair, and Jon being the King (in name only) married to another Queen, and Sansa still being Lady (I’m going on the assumption that Dany wouldn’t have allowed the North to go free and she somehow didn’t kill or remove Sansa from power). I doubt Sansa and Jon would ever talk about it, at least not him starting that conversation. Not only would it put Sansa in danger and anger Dany (if she found out), but it could be considered treason. If Sansa said anything, I see him shutting her down in whatever way he feels necessary and does just that: shuts it down, for good. Even though we know he doesn’t like to lie, I could see him doing that in order to keep her safe. 

If things went the way they did in the show, I do see Jonsa as a distant possibility. Their journeys were left very open-ended. Jon may be going Beyond the Wall with the Wildlings, but he’s still in the North, in the same general area as Sansa, while Arya is West and Bran is South. It doesn’t surprise me in the least that Jon and Sansa ended up with the Wall between them for the time being, considering that they have a rift in their relationship due to what happened. (even though I would hope he realizes Sansa was trying to save his life after some time to think on it) But just like that wall came down, I think the rift will eventually be healed. And I think that second last look on the dock cements that possibility, as well as their ending locations and their paralleled walking scene. While Arya’s was thrown in there, too, they really mirror Jon’s and Sansa’s way more, and show them a bit more than they do Arya’s alone. Now that Jon is considered a Queenslayer and kinslayer, a traitor, in the South (by some, thankfully not all), I’m not sure where his morals stand now. I mean, I don’t think they’ve changed so to speak, but I’m not sure how tightly he would cling to the social class etiquette/norms. He would respect Sansa as Queen if he saw her again and address/treat her as such, but as for waiting for marriage or looking to saddle back into the King in the North role should Sansa offer it to him (I think she would as long as they were a team once again and he is seen as a Stark more than Targaryen by the North, which I would bet my last $ that she would ensure they would), I don’t think he would be so black and white, I think he might be more grey now. So maybe, if Sansa assured him that it’s what she wants as well and she’s truly comfortable, eventually he might give in to those feelings. But how it would progress from there, that is the kicker. Do I think Jon would move back home right away and they would get married the next day and they start making babies? I tend to doubt it would happen that fast honestly. They still have a lot of work to do, a lot to overcome (his resentment at her action eventually causing him to choose and the action he took vs her resentment at him giving away the North to essentially a tyrant no matter the reason and putting them all in danger), and a lot to work out (marriage on the table? kids? Queen and King? etc.). So while he might be more open to a romance between them, it would still take time for them to get there and then once they do, for them to work it out completely. So, slow burn all around, I think lol.

Ultimately, I think they both would have found what they were looking for in one another and it would have been a great relationship to watch as it developed further (even if the cousin incest bothered some), see the power dynamic between them equalize and balance back out as they did once before (in a way), and see how the North (and House Stark) flourished under their joint rule while peacefully co-existing with the South (and Bran) and Beyond the Wall (the Wildlings). 

Do I think there was a version where there was a Jonsa endgame (besides the discussion they had to have had)? Yes. It’s tough to fully commit to because I know that GRRM said the ending would be bittersweet for all and while Sansa gets a good ending, it’s also bittersweet in that her family isn’t there like she wanted, that Jon isn’t the KitN again like she wanted, but sweet in that she secured Northern independence and they named her QitN. Jon’s ending is bitter in that he is banished back to the Wall, not getting anything he wanted, but sweet in that he is now free to go North with the wildlings and free from all of the chaos that had ensued politically and then from the KL massacre. So it’s possible that maybe they intended to stay true to the bittersweet theme all along while also doing their favorite thing (subverting expectations). But I do believe that they did entertain the idea of an endgame at some point, going back to what I said above: there’s just too much there to discount anything other than that option. I’m not sure they had a full on Jonsa wedding or even ending planned, but I do believe there was going to be some explicit confirmation on screen of the feelings there. But I think they backed off on it due to the backlash they knew they would get over what happened to Dany. In the show, hands down, Dany was their most popular character. Everywhere you looked, you couldn’t throw a peanut without hitting Dany-themed merchandise and advertisements everywhere. If say Sansa had said it explicitly and Jon told her “thanks but I don’t feel the same”, then the audience, Dany fans and other fans alike, would have went “but then why did he have to kill her?” Sure, he did it because she was a tyrant who had grand delusions of how her destiny was to create a better world and she would “serve it no matter the cost.” Sure, he wanted the North/the world to remain safe. But that’s not why he ultimately did it (as we know) so it wouldn’t make sense. Sansa is the catalyst, Sansa is the reason he did it, and they made sure to show that to us in dialogue and in Jon’s reaction when Tyrion finally uses Sansa as a last ploy to change Jon’s mind. Even though Sansa wasn’t named in Dany’s last scene, they made sure to let us know that it was indeed about her because of Arya’s scene with Jon before his scene with Tyrion. “Try telling that to Sansa” So it wouldn’t have made sense to have Sansa confirm it explicitly to Jon only for him to shut her down. 

And if Sansa confirmed it explicitly only with Jon to not say anything, this also would have confused the audience while also causing another backlash from those crying out about the injustice of Dany’s death. Does he return her feelings or does he not? Did he know all along or is he surprised? Will he be with Sansa in the end of the episode or not?

Now if Jon returns those feelings, confirming it explicitly as well, imagine the exploding backlash on that on top of the one for Dany’s death. You not only have Dany fans upset, but now some of the GA is going “wait, weren’t they raised as siblings? okay, they might be cousins but that’s still incest. Dany was his aunt and he was hooking up with her, but then he was squicked out about it once he found out who she was to him. but now he’s suddenly okay with it with his sister-cousin? how does that make sense?”

(Plus, I also think they used this sort of same reasoning for why they dropped whatever they had been building up for Jon (pol!Jon anyone?) & Jon knowing how Dany was not going to let anyone surrender in 8x05. The backlash plus pol!Jon would have made Jon look too cruel and calculating to the audience. Same with him knowing Dany’s intentions and being fully complicit in the war crime committed) 

Not to mention, as much as it pains me to say it, it might have lessened the impact of the choice Jon had to make in the end. Not for you or I or other viewers who saw the bigger picture, but for GA, they would definitely just chalk it up to Jon being Robb again, choosing the woman he loves and not giving a flying fig about anything else. Which is totally not the case, of course. We know that he was fulfilling the promise he made to her, keeping her safe, and it wasn’t a choice he wanted to make but had to. Dany had gone too far and she could no longer be reasoned with. Burning innocent children alive and not having any remorse (considering it to be necessary) is a point of no return for sure. But some GA wouldn’t see it that way, wouldn’t make the connections that the show attempted to display through the dialogue and the scenes/events/callbacks. And even though it seemed that the show didn’t particularly care much for Jon’s character in season 7 and season 8, they did care about Jon’s choice and how it would circle back to Ned (and Sansa), echoing the importance of Ned’s decision in season 1, choosing duty over love (warning Cersei vs telling Robert right away), then love over duty (confessing treason vs maintaining his innocence/honor), and the background story as a whole (protecting Jon vs telling the truth about his birth & risking Jon’s safety). That is really the whole story if you think about it, decisions and their consequences/affects. Not that there wasn’t House Stark as a whole, the Targaryens, the Lannisters, the White Walkers, etc. but ultimately, it all came down to the choice Jon would have to make that would determine how the world would go so to speak. Which makes sense not only for his mirroring Ned and coming full circle, but also since he and Dany are two sides of the same coin and are paralleled. Since Melisandre brought them together to play their roles in the future. The world was going to change between the two of them. Dany did in fact break the wheel, it’s just horribly unfortunate that it had to be done so violently. So Dany’s choice and then Jon’s choice, the last two Targaryens, did indeed bring about the new world if you think about it. It might not have been Dany’s vision of her new world but it was definitely a start (a bloody one but you can’t deny it worked). And it makes sense to Dany’s story as Aegon the Conqueror come again, and the show choosing for Jon’s real name to be Aegon. They were always linked and their story was always shared. What choices would they make? Which Targaryen brother would they emulate in the end, Rhaegar or Viserys? Would Dany turn out like Aerys, Jon like Ned, etc. So, for anything to lessen the importance (and impact) of Jon’s decision, I see them taking that very seriously into consideration on how to keep it intact while also presenting it to the audience as a whole, while bracing for the explosion of rage, hurt, and confusion that would erupt after Dany does indeed die. As much as I hate to say it, I do wonder if maybe that was a factor in the end, to keep Sansa from confirming her feelings explicitly, from keeping Jon doing the same, from keeping Jon looking back on the boat and waving (like he did before leaving in 7x02) and Sansa also waving back (even without an explicit confirmation one way or the other). But they still gave us the second last look from Jon, the last look from Sansa as she watches him leave, and the script confirmation of Sansa’s feelings with Jon being aware of them, not to mention all of the subtextual/visual/dialogue/callbacks confirming they were definitely going there at some point. How long they planned to stay there, or if they planned to stay there permanently, I can’t tell you 100% but I definitely think they flirted with and contemplated the idea seriously at least at one point. Especially since they not only had Dany and Sansa paralleled as individuals but also in their relationships with Jon, right down to the touches and dialogue. I just think that they ended up backing out on it and essentially, we were robbed lol. No

pun intended. ;-)

Sorry, Nonnie, if I went a bit off course (and that I went on and on for centuries, I tend to do that a lot lol) but I hope I was able to answer your question fully. It was very interesting delving into how they could have had it happen had they fully committed to it in the end. Jonsa will forever be my #1 OTP for this universe/story and one of the main reasons why is because they just work, and they work well together, not to mention how much I love both of their characters. I always think back to that question Littlefinger asked Sansa in 7x01: “Why aren’t you happy? What is it that you want that you do not have?” Something we never really saw her answer on screen. I’m not saying it was all about Jon and/or romance, but I’m pretty sure we already know what it Littlefinger was referring to by the time 8x06 rolled around. ;-)

Thank you again, Nonnie, for checking out all of my Jonsa meta. I love this couple so much and I keep finding new links every time I rewatch. The romance we deserved but didn’t get, but hopefully will in the books (if it’s what GRRM intends and it’s right). Our Little Bird and Lord Crow deserve happiness. =) <3     

[esther-dot]

I do think they can show that Jon is still having conflict of emotions regarding Dany just like he had in books regarding Ygritte. If Sansa will make an appearance, I think it would be like for an episode and they have conversation like from previous seasons. I don't believe they will show Jonsa as endgame but they can show Sansa and Jon companionship. Also I don't think it's canon stuff but more like what Kit and makers are experimenting with Jon's character which could be interesting.

I think it would feel very wrong if they didn’t have Jon deal with emotional fallout from what happened in GoT, but it’s hard for me to compare the Ygritte and Dany situations (even though there were shared beats) because Jon’s conduct was so different. Jon remained loyal to the Watch the entire time with Ygritte, so even when he had conflicted feelings I felt like it was part of showing he’s a good, caring kid. In spite of being enemies, he saw them as people and cared.

I wouldn’t have minded that kind of interaction with Jon and Dany and I wouldn’t mind him feeling guilt for killing her when he feels guilt over Ygritte. People do have guilt even when they don’t regret the action because some actions are just awful things to do even if necessary. However, in the show, they indicated that Jon betrayed his people’s trust when he bent the knee seemingly unnecessarily and then he lied to his lords and family that he had to to save them and then even when warned about Dany, he forced Northern armies to follow her into a massacre. And the excerpt of the script from 8x05 that I saw indicated that at some point before they attacked KL, he knew there was a good chance that’s what would happen, so they wrote a lot of moral culpability into Jon’s choices without ever dealing with it.

I wrote this about a year after the finale:

(link)

So even though we can say it make sense for him to have conflicted emotions over the characters, (and I have tried to write a little of that in one of my post canon fics), I think Jon’s choices are so damning that they are what should haunt him—not Dany’s death. And Ygritte isn’t a good person by my standards but she was written to represent the ideals of a group and imo, wasn’t meant to be seen as particularly evil, rather a product of a certain way of life. But in the end, Dany was the worst person in Westeros, and I say that because one of the writers called her father Hitler which he used to mean the worst person in their world, and then they went and made visual parallels between Dany and Hitler, had Emilia watch Hitler speeches for prep on delivering Dany’s, and you know, had Dany burn children alive. So, imagine a story that instead of celebrating the people who attempted to assassinate Hitler, was about how much a character loved him or how much he grieved after his death. That doesn’t sit well, does it? That’s why so many of us are disgusted with Jon questioning whether it was right to kill Dany in the finale and why so many of us worry about what they’ll write in the sequel because yes, he’ll have a lot of feelings to work through but if it’s not about his own failure and is instead him mourning his lover…well, it’s offensive. You’re probably right that they’d view it and write it in a similar light, but it’s upsetting to me.

On the one hand, yes, it would be nice to have Jon back and give him a chance to actually talk about what all of the shit he went through before exile meant to him, but on the other, what he says and feels could be really destructive to how I view him and feel about him. I can dismiss the finale as all crap but if there’s a season of a show in which Jon is questioning stopping Dany or clearly meant to still be in love with her even after her rampage in KL…that’s beyond my ability to ignore. I don’t expect Jonsa at all (although I will continue to engage with that content because I think it’s fun), my issues are about Jon and what they’d do to him.

[kellyvela]

HBO repeated every season of GOT for the past seven weeks in preparation for HOTD. I watched some of them. I missed some of them. It was painful.

Sometimes I wonder if I will have to read the second death (character assassination) of Jon Snow in the books as well, read how he will lose everything just because he will fall in love with Ygritte 2.0 -but worse-, because, citing Season8ShowJon, I DONT WANT IT.

And sometimes I wonder if the fact that D&D made the Starks guests actors of their own story means that GRRM requested that, as a last resort to keep safe the true heart of the story... Because he made a huge mistake at the very beginning:

Q: Hi, so we have another question. It is, "Giving HBO's history of completely changing storylines (I'm looking at you True Blood), how did you get them to stay true to your complex -as hell- novels?"

GRRM: Candy and chocolates.... You know, it's David and Dan really. David Benioff and Dan Weiss are the showrunners, you know, I don't have any veto power. I signed a pretty standard contract where I gave them rights to adapt this into a television series and I got certain titles and agreed I'd write one script a year and a large dump truck full of money.... And, you know, they can have the aliens come down next season.... They can turn the whole cast into vampires.... And I'm powerless to stop them, but I don't think they will do that. They love the books and seem committed to telling my story in a different medium. And I knew all that before I signed any of them contracts.

This quote it's from 2011 and we all know how it went....

[adhoption]

so I watched Shadow and Bone (spoilers).

it could have been interesting with the fantasy Russia setting (a break from the Anglo-Saxon norm, although of course they all speak with RP English accents like any fantasy series, and apparently the author didn’t exactly do their research so the names actually sound ridiculous to actual Russian speakers), diverse cast, and core premise of the sea of shadows (sailors making perilous trips to trade with the other side invoking everything from early sea travel to the Berlin Wall), but it never really gripped me.

It’s more of the same boring elemental magic: the two main types seem to be fire-benders and air-benders (how fresh and original), but there is a Prophecy of a Chosen One who is a light-bender, so of course that turns out to be our protagonist, and there is one guy who is a shadow-bender and is the only guy who wears all black so of course he turns out to be the villain. They don’t even try to shy away from the clichés. She is overpowered and destined to save the world, but a reluctant teenager who cares more about her personal life, and the bad guy is trying to seduce her in the most transparent ways which she nevertheless falls for.

We get the Academy for Gifted Teens trope on top of that, and yet despite the completely uninspired take on magic they still manage to fall fowl of the ‘too many types of magic’ rule, where we already have the standard elementals, the unique light powers from destiny, the shadow powers from the OG shadow-bender, and now some sort of bone magic from another OG guy who turned his fingers into animals and then you kill the animals and fuse their bones to you to enhance your power? It’s explained in a few seconds of exposition from a book, and even the basic types of magic aren’t really given a satisfactory justification.

Some of the characters sound like they would be interesting in the books (especially those from Six of Crows, which has been merged into the main Grisha trilogy in the show) and their actors had a certain amount of charisma, but there is also a lot of wooden acting with one line delivered after another in a way that doesn’t feel natural or human. Somebody will deliver a joke with a blank face, there will be a beat, and then somebody else will say how funny they are with a blank face. Don’t tell us, show us.

Even the interesting crew often seemed to be realised as one-dimensional stock characters. It feels like a YA staple to have a young female assassin who takes everything deadly seriously and spends the whole time lurking in the shadows with her knives, or a token gay guy who takes nothing seriously and flirts with everybody (because why mess with a good stereotype), but you don’t earn the fun of throwing these different characters together if you don’t make us feel like the characters are rooted in anything more than a recipe of tropes that you already know the target audience will lap up.

The script itself is filled with obvious, boringly predictable banter and corny lines, villains being villainous for no reason, heroes being proudly heroic, subtlety out of the window. The main ‘twist’ is that the sinister super-powerful shadowbender who is the only guy who wears all black (as they make a point of telling us) is actually the bad guy, which feels like the opposite of subverting expectations, and his relationship with the Chosen One super-powerful lightbender protagonist is classic Rey/Kylo Ren seduction, meanwhile we have scene-for-scene re-shoots of the Jon Snow/Ygritte courtship in the snow with the other main couple on the show.

You know those posts about how fandom distils characters into the same two or three personalities which they find ‘fun’, but which turn their treatment of all media into the same boring one-dimensional relationships? This show just feels like a pastiche of those tropes, like a shallow fanfic of itself, rather than bringing anything actually original to the table.

[chispas-and-broken-bindings]

A little something from the next chapter of I Just Think I'll Scream:

"I got your jacket back." Jon slides the bag across the bar top and Val arches her eyebrows.

"Where is the bow?" When she lifts the jacket out, a card and a pouch of disinfectant wipes slip out as well. "What's this then?" Val asks, reading.

"Snow?" Val looks confused as she hands the card, handwritten in neat compact script, over to Jon. 

Hi, Thank you for letting me borrow your jacket and I'm really sorry for the interruption! I included something a little 'extra' for the next time you find yourself in the mood with no better accommodations at hand. 

~Sansa

"Why would I need disinfectant? In the mood for what? " Val is glaring at him and Jon can feel his face flaming. "Who does she think I am? And what is the interruption she's talking about?"

"Um…well, you know. She was really drunk. She must have thought this was Ygritte's…" Jon hedges, and before he knows it, Val is ducking under the widow maker and swatting at him with a bar towel.

"Were you hooking up with your girlfriend in my bathroom?"

"Well…not successfully."

"Ugh! You gross, disgusting teenager. You know, sometimes I forget you are seventeen, and then you do things like this and I think, 'oh yeah, he's a little hornball shithead who'd be dumb enough to try to get it on in my bathroom."

"Ah, okay! Stop hitting me." He throws a stool out between them to stop her advance. "It won't happen again."

"You're damn straight it won't happen again. Have a little class, Snow. If you want to hook up in a lavatory, find one in the lobby of fancy hotel or something. Mine is off-limits! It's little antics like yours that cause me to get keep getting fined for people pissing in the alleyway."

"Well…I can hardly take the blame for all of that." Jon laughs.

"Well, guess what?" She grabs the package of wipes and tosses it at him. "You're the dummy standing in front of me. So you get the blame and you get the punishment. Go clean the bathroom."

"Ugh, Val! I don't even work here."

"Don't care. Get to it, Snow. I want to see my reflection on every surface."

"I'm not a magician!" But, he obediently turns down the hallway.

"The rest of the cleaning supplies are in the back!" Val calls.

"I know!" A half hour later, the bathroom is as clean as its going to get, and still looking pretty disgusting.

"You know, if you just slapped on some fresh paint, maybe changed out the faucet or something, it wouldn't be quite so bad in there." Jon eases onto a stool. "I could pick some stuff up for you from the hardware store."

"Oh, you want me to make it more welcoming? Maybe entice some other teenagers, with slightly higher standards than yours, to start using it as their own personal hookup spot?"

Jon drops his head in his hands. "Ugh. I told you…it won't happen again."

Val pats his shoulder. "I know. Now, come get some food with me before we open." They walk to the diner around the corner, and she orders a ridiculous amount for such a petite woman. Jon orders a coffee.

"Well, credit to the drunk girl. My jacket feels amazing." Val runs her fingers down the sleeve. "It's been cleaned and conditioned."

"Her name is Sansa."

"Oh, right." Val grins wickedly at him. "Well, Sansa seems to know how to take care of things. She can borrow my stuff anytime."

Jon shrugs noncommittally, eyeing the plates of food being set down before them; bacon, eggs, pancakes, hash browns, a bowl of wet fruit, a slice of lemon meringue pie and a plate of biscuits and gravy. "I'm not sure she'll be coming back to the Flea. I don't think it's her style."

"We shall see. Now eat up. Surely something in front of you catches your eye."

"Val, you don't have to buy me food."

"Obviously, but I'm not going to eat all of this myself. Don't waste it, Snow. There are starving children-"

"I get it. I get it." He pulls the biscuits and gravy over and they are delicious. Soon, his stomach is pleasantly full and Val is telling him about the summer she spent on Skaagos at some hippie commune, and he's trying to imagine the woman in front of him wearing a peasant top with flowers in her hair. It's not an unpleasant image he conjures.