#(this is kinda me reiterating that certain characters will not I repeat will NOT be altered by whatever the shows are doing)

[autumnwoodsdreamer]

Just a piece of the exchange between Din and Sabine in Head Above Water that’s been going through my mind recently for ReasonsTM…

. . . . .

Silence ebbed in as the door slid closed behind them, kept at bay by the well practiced hum of the Slave’s systems and engines.

Sabine let her breath rush out without censorship as the day caught up to her, settling in her muscles and her joints in ways it didn’t just five years ago.

Without deliberation, she took her helmet off and set it down on the spare bunk above hers. Cooled air brushed her skin, chilling the sweat on her brow. Her cheek stung; a cursory dab of her fingers found a cut and dry, crusted blood.

“When did that happen?” Din inquired, voice quiet, just barely carrying through the vocoder.

Sabine nudged a shoulder up in a shrug. “In the speeder crash.”

“I thought you said you weren’t injured.”

“I never said that. I just implied you came off worse than me.”

“Can you heal yourself?”

She blinked, her brow furrowing. “Uh, yeah.” She inspected her cheek further, prodding and poking. It wasn’t a major wound, just a cut on the point of her cheekbone. The site was a little swollen and bruised but it wasn’t unbearably painful. “Nothing’s broken, so a smear of bacta and a plaster and it’ll clear in no time.”

“No, I mean—” he blew out a gruff sigh and drew a wonky circle in the air with his hand as he grappled for the words, “—with the Force.”

She jerked back. “What?”

“If you can heal others, why can’t you heal yourself?”

Chopper glanced between Sabine and the Mandalorian before shaking his head and mimicking an exasperated sigh. “Terrific. He’s concussed,” he groused.

“That’s not... I don’t have the Force,” she told him, puzzlement rendering her tone blank.

“But you’re a Jedi.”

“I’m really not.”

“It’s alright; it won’t make us enemies.”

“Din, I’m not...” she trailed off, stopped, took a breath, silently wondered how exactly she was supposed to check if this guy really was concussed, and let the breath fall out unused. “Why do you think I’m a Jedi?” she asked, slowly, evenly.

“Your lazer sword,” he answered, far too simply, the certainty—which wasn’t absolute to begin with—fracturing further.

Without thought, she glanced down to the black, cylindrical hilt clipped to her belt in the same spot it had laid at the ready for the past ten years. “You mean this?”

“I... thought only a Jedi could use it.”

“Uh... no.”

“But don’t you need the Force to turn it on?”

Unclipping the hilt, she held it up and turned it over in her hands. “You just need to press this,” she said, brushing her thumb over the button but going no further with the demonstration. “No Force required.”

[kisari]

ramblings on my personal feelings about my GG fave

i have such mixed feelings about testament's redesign. before i get too much into it. this is the internet so in case any rando sees this and doesnt know me: there is no wrong or right way to be nonbinary. there is no wrong or right way to present or feel yourself. i am against binary completely. i do not believe in transa/ndrophobia garbage.

i also wanna state i am a long time testament fangirlie. i love testament. i am happy testament was added. im happy they came out and said testament is x-gender/nb. testament in the old GG games partially helped me realize i was transmasc/nb. i think maybe thats why the redesign makes me feel a bit strange. first, a comparison.

Testament's general goth vibe and outfit basically never changed until Strive. I do think it's very interesting that from GG-->GGIsuka, Testament gained a six pack and yet also somehow became much skinnier and looks almost emaciated. Original GG Testament was very much a softer type build with no abs. I'd even say in Strive, their body shape became closer to how it was in the original GG.

Along with that, a lot of the design elements are still there, which I think is really impressive. The boots, the skirt, the gloves, and their new corset has the same arm flairs/wraps as their old tube top did. Really, they did a great job keeping the same vibe but showing that Testament has changed. So what's my problem? I've been trying to figure it out for a while. And seeing this concept art for Strive I think kinda cemented my feelings.

It was clear from the beginning they wanted Testament to have a more "fancy" look(lol the hat). In fact the one on the right is almost the exact same outfit but their body is drastically different... And I think this might be why I feel so mixed. GG creator has said Testament was always X-gender, and I think this comes through from their design from the very start. Back in ye olden days, before the Strive redesign, Testament 100% received transphobic comments that I shant repeat. But I'm sure you can imagine the sort of hatred and slurs a transfem would receive. having testament's redesign be clearly, much much more feminine isn't necessarily a bad thing- in fact i dont think its bad. again... being nb doesnt mean someone has to look any certain way. but testament isnt a real person. testament is a character designed by people. how would people have reacted if Testament was more masculine, but they still came out and said they were nb? The poses, the voice... it was all the same but Testament wasn't clearly much more fem? the way nb feels like something only allowed to more fem presenting people i guess makes me a bit concerned. go to any post about testament and look at the comments. its all "SEXY MOMMY THIGHS THEY SLAYIN" type shit. testament p much never received this attention beforehand. testament was also just... not as popular as other chars such as brisket who received the majority of attention in this way.

where am i going with this... idk. in a way, i have a lot of not clear thoughts and no where to put them. again maybe its just because i saw testament as gender goals before strive. and as someone that is nb but wants to be more masc it makes me a bit upset. there is absolutely a pattern of what is acceptable for a nb person to look like(especially when you are transfem), and i guess it just sucks that it happened to testament who i thought was perfect in the beginning. ngl i do also miss their edgier parts also. they def moved away from edgy to a fancy/posh vibe. testament's scythe used to be made of their own blood, and they'd cut off their body parts and remove skin for attacks. i can, obviously accept that this can be a reflection of them growing as a person and no longer self harming now that they are happy... or maybe it was too hard to animate in 3D... teehee....

this walk cycle literally cannot be beat it is the best.

i wanna be them so bad again tho i wanna reiterate. testament is my #1 fave guilty gear char forever i love them. this will not change. i just have many thots and feelings

[scarlet-rj]

OOC Rule and important background information time!

First of all, this is blog will usually fall under low-stakes or drama-stakes, HOWEVER there will adult language and adult humour as that’s just how I write and the kinda humour I find funny. That doesn’t mean disgustingly offensive humour in asks will be tolerated. I have standards y’know. There will be some posts that enter high-stakes mode. This will occur when an ask asks a question or makes comment/statement that prompts the post to shift in that direction. Asks/Comments/Statements that would cause posts to go into high-stakes mode include:

- Almost everything about RJ’s life and past before Paldea*

- Certain types of discussion surrounding Shadow Pokémon*

- Mentions of Shiny Mills and Unethical Pokémon Breeding

- Mentions of abusive treatment of humans and Pokémon (All kinds)*

- Mentions of Violet’s Paradox Pokémon

- Mentions of Pokémon Poachers*

- Mentions of Aura Guardian history

- Asks from Evil Pokémon teams

All high-stakes post will have an OOC warning that includes a statement that the post is going into high-stakes mode as a warning list before the post itself that is then is followed by a cut to let the reader know what they are getting themselves into before they read.

Any topic that has an asterisk next to it it means that are times were I cannot find a good way to let the topic down easily, so to speak, and thus will deem the, “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat,” warning to be necessary and will put it both in the warning list and in the tags. If you are unfamiliar with DD:DNT tag, it’s meaning, or it’s purpose, please watch this video by ColeyDoesThings on the topic: https://youtu.be/WVnT7KO1M8A

Now, on a much less depressing note, here’s a non-spoiler/important information list of the cannon this world is running under:

- Aura Guardians are a known thing here and have their own history as a group

- Shadow Pokémon are created by experimentation and from severe abuse

- The part of the Academy the Nemona and RJ is the college side of things

- All characters mentioned are 18+ unless stated elsewhere

- Several NPC characters, such as: gym leaders, elite four members, main story characters, and Champions have been replaced with an oc character, so if Nemona and RJ respond to your character question with a “Who,” that’s your answer. If I never mention the character by name, they are owned by someone isn’t in the Pokéblr community.

- I mentioned this before, but it bears repeating: RJ and Nemona are both 21+

- RJ can understand Pokémon speak.

- RJ’s family are the owners of Silph Co. and RJ is heir of the company. (Does RJ actually want to be the heir or not? Find that out for yourself.)

- Cannon characters, such as Nemona, will be given more character because as much I personally love these characters, Arceus a puddle is deeper than these bitches.

- There is a religion for Arceus (Feel free to suggest names for what it could be called)

- Pokémon Breeding works differently than normal (Deserves it’s own post. So, feel free ask RJ how it works.)

- Nemona with speak in green text. RJ will speak in purple text.

And, at least, for now, that’s all I can think of for all that you need, need to know, cannon wise. If I think of anything else, I’ll update the post.

And finally, here are the rules your ask and other interactions for :

- Do not ask anything obscene, de-humanising, racist, Homophobic/Transphobic, Anti-LGBTQ+, explicitly NSFW

- Keep asks towards me to a bare minimum

- Again, have mentioned already, but bares reiterating, do not, under any circumstances, tag any of my accounts on NSFW posts regarding any of my accounts, especially this one. Sin against Arceus on your own time and blog.

- Do NOT include any personal information in asks

- Harassment of me, or any other Pokéblr accounts I interact with, will NOT be tolerated

- Please speak as much English as possible, I rather not rely on Apple Translate more than I already have too.

- Pokéblr accounts that belong to Pokémon that want to make an ask must be in English so I know what your asking. I will, for lore reasons, make it that only RJ understands the ask.

- Rules will be updated as needed, but I would rather not further restrict creativity, so, don’t be the asshole that ruins it for everybody else.

That’s all for this post! Let’s all have fun together! See you soon!

[togashicomeback]

Unpopular HxH opinions

Alright so, here’s some of my “unpopular” hxh opinions. I’m not meaning to offend anyone, these are opinions and I am perfectly accepting of other points of view, by stating them I am not impliying in any way that your are wrong.

Also, please keep in mind I’ve only read the manga (once), never seen the anime, which from my understanding further develops certains scenes. I also went in after a month of lurking in the fandom and had certain expectiations, which may have spoiled my experience at times.

In the manga, white backgrounds and closeups are fine (in certain parts). When characters are talking in transitional scenes, it’s fine. You’re reading quick dialogue, a more complex panel would be wasted with the short reading time. Although I believe Togashi does go overboard at certain points, he (almost) always uses different shots/backgrounds for the more important parts, the one that the eye will spend more times on. There’s exceptions, but readers should understand that panels of characters saying stuff like “yeah/let’s go/ok/etc.” should be simple, it’d be a waste of drawing time otherwise.

Pariston is kinda... boring, at least in the manga. The fandom hypes him up a lot, and I do like the idea of him, but when it comes to the actualy story, to me he only shines when interacting with Ging.

Also, Anime Pariston is prettier that Manga Pariston.

Greed Island arc is good. It’s fun, it has many moments that cement Gon’s lack of self worth and his relationship with Killua, and it serves as a nice break between two dark arcs, thus making the CAA more impactful. 

Regarding the fandom, I’ve had the impression people will just claim that the darkest arc is the best? I could be totally off here, but sometimes it feels like fans are just repeating popular ideas, without thinking why the arc is good.

My favourite arc is Greed Island, but I do recognize that the CAA is masterfully written and it has some of the best scenes and characters of the manga (like Shaiapouf). It is better than GI, but I still prefer the other: for once I like the “happier” one.

Shaiapouf is an amazing character and reducing him to “annoying and crazy” is just ridiculus. You can find him that, but it has to be recognized that his characterization is outstanding.

Shaiapouf is more interesting than Pitou, whose character development wasn’t executed as well, at least according to me. While with Shaiapouf we get a few, subtle hints to his development, Pitou just says an extablishing phrase (”What the king wants is what matters”) and then, once Meruem asks them to heal Komugi, they have that key moment. But that’s kind of it? I don’t know, perhaps I’m just biased because I hate cat people and loved Pokkle. Super open to debate about this one!

Youpi is interesting, although less than Shaiapouf. His changing ideas about honor and conflict were cool.

Chrollo and the Phantom Troupe are wasted potential, not bad characters. Ok, listen, I know that I diss them a lot, but. In the York Shin Arc there was this whole setting up about group dynamics and how living in a disfunctional society impacts people: the Spider is composed of people who’ve found their purpose in the group. It has the potentiality to be interesting, how they value the idea of the spider more than the memeber. And yet, this is ultimatly left undeveloped, which is a pity.

Of course, when I talk about development I am referring to a characterization that doesn’t justify their actions, but simply makes them more well rounded characters.

Chrollo was literally set up to be a man going through an identy crisis, but in the end he’s just a pretentious, edgy asshole.

Why is Shalnark popular? He has little to no appereances in the manga. I get that he’s pretty, but still... Does the anime develop him more?

I love the idea of Killua/Gon, but if the manga were to focus on their friendship I’d be fine with it too. To be honest, sometimes I feel like the reason certain interactions come off as romantic is due to their codependency - however, I guess it could be both.

Wether they end up as friends or “lovers” (using the term loosely ‘cause they’re kids), first they need theraphy. Mito, do something.

On the topic of shipping... I like Leorio/Kurapika, but the manga doesn’t really seem to be going for it? Only when they met after the Election Arc there seemed to be some implications. I dunno, I guess we’ll see. Togashi come back please.

Why do people portray Zeno as the sane one of the family? He allowed Silva to abuse all of his children. He is a bad person. You can like him! But don’t claim he’s sane, he just doesn’t like bullshit.

Kalluto supremacy. (may not be controverial, but needs to be stated)

And last, but not least, my most controversial opinion.

Let me start off by saying that I love the idea of Alluka and Nanika. I love what they represent and I’m truly happy that so many people feel represented by these characters. However, I couldn’t help to find Alluka a bit... dull, at least in the manga. She’re mostly there, looks cute, does nearly nothing... that’s it. She has a lot of potential and I hope she’ll get more development in the future. From my understanding, the anime fleshes her out a bit more? Also, let me reiterate that I like her character, just think there’s room for improvement (in the way she appears in the plot). There were some great scenes, my favourite being when Alluka “defended” Nanika: I really liked the methaphor and would love for more stuff like that.

I’m also concerned by her dynamic with Killua. I am afraid that having to take care of someone else will only fuel Killua’s codependent tendencies. I hope this relationship will actually be an healing experience for him.

...that’s it, I think! If you made it this far... wow. Thank you! Would love to hear your opinions, I’m always open to debate.

[comicteaparty]

May 23rd-May 29th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from May 23rd, 2020 to May 29th, 2020.  The chat focused on the following question:

If someone came to you for advice about starting their first comic, what would you tell them?

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

The biggest hurdle I see beginner comic creators (including myself) struggling with is the fear to begin because they "aren't good enough yet." I would tell them to just start. The best way to learn how to make comics is to make comics. You can always go back and fix old pages. Or you don't even have to. The improvement throughout your work can be encouraging. So I say, just begin.(edited)

carcarchu

know your ending before you begin! so many webcomics start and then have no idea how to continue. at least have some kind of idea of the direction you want to go to and at least a basic outline before you begin. you can always change things but going in without a roadmap is a recipe for disaster

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I would tell them to consider a few things: your desired scope, your current skill levels, and how likely you are to still love the project months or years later. I didn’t start with a small scope, so I can’t tell people to keep it simple no matter what, but it absolutely helps. Doing a short 6-10 page comic as your first thing will totally tell you if this is something you like, or totally hate. Assessing your own skill level is hard, but I try and encourage people to practice anatomy and perspective and other skills before diving right into creating a massive world. I’d encourage them to practice some writing as well. But even the act of creating a comic can help with all that. So, YMMV! And you gotta love what you’re drawing! I didn’t feel comfortable creating a story until my late 20s because I felt I hadn’t settled on something I’d be indefinitely passionate about. My likes and dislikes were still changing so much. If you can look at your idea and pretty confidently say you want to draw this stuff over and over again for years... that’s a very good sign

eliushi [a winged tale]

I find my advice will vary depending on what their vision is for their comic! For instance, if it’s a short form, I would recommend looking at different styles and experimental storytelling to find ways to best explore their work. For a long form I would advise as y’all have done so as well: start and keep going to improve. Have an ending in mind. Know the basics of character/plot and storytelling; essentially if you know the rules then you are more easily able to break them in an informed way. Most importantly is to have fun drawing, have fun with friends, have fun sharing your work

I guess sort of as a follow up... did you all receive any advice before starting your comic?

carcarchu

i didn't ask anyone in particular but the advice i read before starting mirrored what has been said so far

the advice about just starting and not being afraid is probably what helped the most

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I was told to make my first comic shorter... but with the caveat that if I absolutely could not, it was okay to try a long-form one from the get-go

carcarchu

another thing that i often tell people looking to start is that comic making is actually a gigantic time sink and requires a LOT of discipline. a lot of people i talk to really don't realize how much of a time investment it is. i don't want to dissuade anyone by telling them this but it's important to realize

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I agree with lazuli! Right now I'm actually feeling more motivation for my long comic than my short story.( I will absolutely finish both though)(edited)

carcarchu

x2 agree with claire, i've realized i'm not good at short stories

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I've been asked this question before, about first comics. I always say the most important thing is to draw what you like, for yourself.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Short stories are hard! I’m often jealous of all the marvelous one-shot comics on twitter, telling an affecting story in such little time. I often wonder if my own stuff will ever be half as successful in the emotions department. Short stuff is easier to digest but requires a ton of skill to craft well.(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Absolutely. Two of my favorite comics are 3 pages and 5 pages long and years later I am still thinking about them.

I think it takes even more skill to craft a compelling story, world, and characters in only a few pages

It is witchcraft, I swear

carcarchu

there was a beautiful short story i read about a cat before, i'll see if i can find it and share it in recs

eliushi [a winged tale]

I think a lot about the unfinished comics! even though they aren’t finished, they still stay with me. Ultimately if you draw comics, it will touch people and people will remember

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I've always wanted to do a short story like that but am not a good enough writer yet unfortunately

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Also agree with @Eightfish (Puppeteer) - you must make something for yourself. You can try and tailor it to certain audiences, but don’t stray too much from your own sensibilities. Make a comic that speaks to your soul, and people will feel it.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Pick something you love, you‘ll spent a lot of time on it.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

If you don't love it, who will?

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

And short stories are their own medium with their own rules, needs and patterns; they‘re not interchangable with longform and the otherway round.

That‘s what annoys me about the „start with 8-page shorts!“ advice. It‘ll teach you how to do shorts, not how to do long form. And I‘ve seen so many treating shorts as a stepping stone to „proper“ long-form comics, and that format deserves better.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I do see the merit in that though. There are a lot of unfinished long comics. If you have a good short story, might as well make it first. For me though, they are way harder than long stories.

I did give myself the option to end puppeteer after about 80 pages though

Luckily I fell in love with making it and won't be doing that now

But it was an option

Capitania do Azar

Yeah I'm gonna have to repeat the points already stated. Everytime I get the chance to give advice to a starter, I do focus on the discipline aspect. Webcomics (any comic actually) does take a lot of work and if you wanna make it in the long run you gotta know your pace and you gotta know where you wanna go so you can make the best use of your time

You don't need to have super solid plans but it's good if you know how much time it takes you to make one, five or twenty pages, so you can get organised

And at least in my experience being organised is one of the most important aspects

That, and liking what you do but also allowing it to change because things take time and you will change too

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

^^^I can't reiterate this last point enough

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

For sure cap! I spent a lot of time experimenting with art style before starting and I think choosing a simpler but still nice looking (to me) style has been vital for me being as consistent with my comic as I have

Having a schedule was really important to me starting out

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I think I would have said..... MAKE SURE YOU DRAW IN ADVANCE BEFORE POSTING.

I've made this mistake, and I know many people have made this mistake, but it's really easy to get stressed and demotivated when you realize that you might not be drawing as fast as you want...particularly if you're starting out.

So make sure you have buffers so that you can post those updates as consistently as you can.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'd say for my past self that make sure you have.... at least almost everything ironed out for your story first if you want to make a long form comic as your first try because trust me if you don't, you'll end up redrawing the first chapter twice lmao. knowing how it begins and ends, knowing your drawing speed and also recognizing if you're just either motivated to work on it or you're doing it despite motivation. Because those are like the main factors that affect burn out and if you don't watch out, you'll get fucked over from it. have a good sense of your self in terms of your work ethic, and your writing. Art will be supplement for that writing but you're pretty good at least understanding the basics you should be aight Also if you don't feel doing your long story first, you can always make a short story to test waters. but if ya like me and rather just jump making a long ass comic first, go for it lmao

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

I think the biggest advice I'd give would be is to accept what you've already done, kinda related to the "you're good enough to start" advice. A lot of webcomics stall out in the "gotta redraw this to be Good Enough" phase, and it's easy to get caught up in the cycle of redrawing early pages (especially once you get a few years into a comic), but learning to sit back and appreciate early pages for the stage you were when you drew them is important!

also something I don't hear creators talk a lot about, is having a support group. Getting positive responses from strangers from the internet is a rush, but it's not always going to happen, and relying on it isn't a great idea mental health wise. Having a group of friends you can bounce ideas off of and that can support you in your story helps make the lonely art of making comics a little less lonely. I wish I had known about this group sooner because it seems like a really great resource of creators coming together and being supportive!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh yeah that last point especially

like honestly if I didn't met other webcomic creators I probably wouldn't be working in webcomics tbh

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

It's so nice to have outside perspective both for art advice/critique stuff, but also just the general "hey guys drawing pages amiright"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah lmao

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

plus if/when you ever meet up with people at conventions, it's always so nice!

mariah (rainy day dreams)

Yeah, I would second that. Starting out I had a really hard time knowing how to take praise from my real world friends who are into my comic. It felt like maybe it wasn't real praise and they only like it because they liked me. But honestly the longer I make comics the more I just want my friends to like them and the less I care about what an internet stranger might think X'D Also, I watched the video on new creator tips that Joichi post in #writing_n_misc_resources last night before bed and those tips are super solid. I think folks have already hit on all of them but writing something you really like and is for you first and foremost and being being prepared for a lot of work are super important. Also, get that buffer!

kayotics

I think this was touched on already but having an idea you’re really passionate about, especially for a long form comic, is kind of essential to keep you going. You gotta keep up momentum for years, not just a few weeks. The thing that helped me, personally, was building my comic in a way that let me end it after the first story, but also let me continue if I liked it. My first chapter was definitely like a pilot for a tv show. If I didn’t want to continue, I’d just stop. But I ended up writing the second chapter before I knew it so I guess it worked out

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I don't have too much new things to add but I agree that webcomics, is a lonesome job on your own. But once I started hanging around this discord, sharing frustrations, comic compliments. The support made a big difference, no longer having to shout in the abyss of Twitter to be heard. I know when you first start out, it's overwhelming. There's so many platforms, do I do color or grayscale? (as it felt that way for me.) The best is to begin small baby steps, write scripts. Draw thumbnails, talk about it with people you trust. Generate ideas and put them on paper. Something I learn, is finding a good group community who raise you up, than put your works down(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Seconding/thirding/etcing about support. Other than that, I really don't have a single advice that I could give to someone starting out. Because it would need to be tailored to their situation. Someone who's in my exact same situation back when I started my first webcomic? They don't need ANY advice honestly. They just need to do it (which they will anyway) and learn from the experience.

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

https://tenor.com/view/doit-gif-5247874

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(Again, I'm talking about a hypothetical person who's exactly like Younger Me. Not every beginner will "do it anyway.")

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I corrected my definition, as I found out what the topic was about! I thought from everyone's comment, they felt like talking about internal feelings about community spirit.(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think that "just do it!!" Attitude is probably what I'll echo, it's what I'd have needed to hear and what I think there's probably the biggest hangup on. I think everyone tries to wait til they're ready, and it's like "you are gonna learn so much so fast and never stop learning once you start making your comic" so just, start learning now! Make changes later. You can't fix something that doesn't exist yet!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

One thing I often think about is when artists completely relaunch their comics once they become a bit more intermediate in skill level. They've improved so much during the creation process that they feel a need to go back and totally start over. I've even run into some comics where they... almost seem in a constant state of relaunch I often wonder about how to encourage new artists to move forward instead of reiterating existing stuff. Or is the reiteration not necessarily a bad thing?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I mean I guess it's not a bad thing if they're still having fun? Sometimes they're still having a blast; other times it's a form of torturous perfectionism.

Sometimes it's a bit of both, even

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, I always frame it as "unless you are rewriting, don't redraw."

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I have seen a redrawn comic go well only once

Deo101 [Millennium]

Cause if it's just to fix your art but nothing is really fundamentally changing, then you'll get stuck in a loop I think

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

and that comic kept updating latest pages while redrawing the first ones

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I've seen people do that. Where it's not a rebooot that basically stays the same, just a revamp of old stuff.

I could see myself doing that eventually tbh.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

The guy had very messy art in the beginning. Not bad art, he just didn't put much effort into it. The comic just evolved into something way bigger and more professional than he'd expected so he went and made the first pages professional looking as well

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yup Cause conics make your art improve so fast, every 50 pages you'll feel like your first one has sooo much wrong with it! So you can't get stuck just remaking pages

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Deo I don't think your first pages are any impediment to new readers. I have noticed a ton of art evolution though :0

Deo101 [Millennium]

Unless, yeah, you are rewriting and need the content on the pages to be different.

Yeah they might not be impeding but they're uglyyyyy

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I didn't notice your art changing much while reading your comic but then i went back to the first page and, woah.

big difference

Deo101 [Millennium]

It would be smth like way off in the future though if I did do it. It's not currently in my plans

I'd rather make new pages and new comics

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

has anyone ever commented on your art evolution?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah my art has changed uhhh a lot LOL I think maybe a couple times? I don't have a good memory

mariah (rainy day dreams)

I think it's probably different for everyone. Personally, I don't think really believe in going back and redoing stuff, but I also say that as someone who just spent the last year redrawing most of my first five chapters. For me, Ive always wanted to print my comic, and I felt a lot of self-created pressure to have my first book look really good. Because it's going to be new readers first introduction to the series and if I don't feel 100% proud of it, sell it to other people was going to be impossible. I kind of just felt embarrassed by my old art and writing(some of it was like 8 years old and hadn't aged well). And also if I was going to use up resources to print something, then it should be the best version of that thing. But on the other hand, redoing the old stuff has also made me really sad that I haven't been able to move forward with new chapters. I definitely second Deo. And I also think you have to know where to draw the line. Like "ok, I'm going to redraw this once and then not again" or "I'm going to redraw up to X point and call it good. I think can be a really easy perfectionist trap and time sink if you aren't careful.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it is also hard to get your existing audience to follow the same story twice

OH, webtoons features are rebooted comics oftentimes

I guess that counts as going well!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, since getting featured by Webtoons is kinda like going print; it's a form of getting Published

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah. For this other comic I've not launched yet, I've redrawn the intro 4 times. The intro onky takes like, 20 hours absolute max (latest) but I still find myself looking at it and thinking.. I could have been making new stuff :/ BUT! I did rewrite it every time so it did need to change. I should have just waited to start it til I could commit more so there wasn't a year between each intro

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

But since webtoons features update so fast I don't really mind following the same story again. Lone is already almost to where the canvas version was

Deo101 [Millennium]

And yeah wt features need to reboot for a lotta reasons, there's also probably a lot of times like. At least lengthening updates to fit the requirements

They're not necessarily redrawing it, too. They just have to post from the beginning which totally makes sense

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I'm giving myself a mantra, don't redraw, don't look back. Just move on with what you got. There's chapters I want to cover. It's just years ago, I had constant panic that the story's theme was going to change as it went, so I 'must' change the first chapter to suit the general overview of the story. But it resulted in me burning out and being self destructive to my work. I'm going to take better care of myself(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i think most redraw significantly though

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I mean, wouldn't u?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I'd have to! My whole story is only like. 20 webtoons updates?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Truuu

If that, 40 panels.. a page is like usually around 5

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed on redraw hell. tried it and I didn't like it at all lmaO

I'm kinda glad I have a good footing on my current comic and I don't want to redraw it at all unless it's adapted for something else. still like

work what you have, if you can orz

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

"Don't look back" is hard when you feel like the first X pages are dragging all the future pages down with them. I agree that you need to draw a line (no pun intended), set some criteria

The thing Eightfish mentioned -- not so bad that it'd deter new readers -- is a very useful criterion IMO

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

if you must, i wonder if redrawing the first scene would be okay?

Just as a taste of what's to come for new readers

Deo101 [Millennium]

Do you think they would notice the difference in quality and question that?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip maybe

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I've read a long webcomic where only the first chapter was redrawn, and when I got to the second chapter and saw an immediate drop in quality, I knew what exactly happened XD

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, but you're a creator! Readers don't have the same background to necessarily be able to assume that

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Just put in a note saying that it's art evolution

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

As someone who redrew their first scene for a lot a reasons, I will say that I personally think it's worth it.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Also same, I've seen it and knew exactly what happened

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, it was mentioned in the notes, but I didn't read the notes at first because I knew the archive was huge, and I wanted to Get Through It

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

if i were to do that, i'd put a note in the page itself

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That sounds like a good idea

Deo101 [Millennium]

What were your reasons for redrawing crona?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm not Crona but I redid a big chunk of my chapter 1 for writing reasons. (This was in addition to a whole reboot done prior.) The writing was... not 'this screams terrible writing' kind of bad. But it was extremely misleading/ unclear on what the overall story was going to be

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

dang tbh I did kinda redraw some panels to make the dialogue flow better. But I also tried my best to match up the quality of the pages drawn the time so it doesn't look jarring.

kinda what keii said but just minimizing the effects of shockkkk

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think this is one of the reasons why i don't want to do a comic that goes on for more than a couple years (well, for now that is. Maybe that'll change as i improve)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I redrew one intro 4 times, cause I kept rewriting the whole story.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

after that I was like "don't touch Ch. 1 again" lmao(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

1. Several panels didn't properly show what was happening in the scene. 2. Rewrote some of the dialogue 3. My art had improved so much that even if I hadn't redrawn it, the next scene would look very different. 4. I wasn't super far along, so I thought it would be good to give this another go, knowing much more about paneling, page-layout, and pacing.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

do you think there's a chance you'd eventually redraw wotp as it is now?

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Hell no(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

lol then i think it's fine that you redrew!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Even if I go back and clean some things up later for print, I'm not completely redrawing anything about WotP anymore

I finally got it to a point where I'm happyish with the way it looks

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I've never totally started over, but I did a ton of drawing edits (and a few writing edits!) on my first chapter before releasing it to the public. The previous version of the chapter does look far less polished. But even then, I really only completely redrew 1 or 2 panels. The rest was just liquifying wonky faces and whatnot. Still, once it got printed, I basically locked the artwork. With how long new pages take, I really don't have time to look back much anymore which is its own kind of blessing!

In that way, I'm very glad I kept it private for a while. I wasn't confident with my skills yet - and I wanted some wiggle room. It's part of the reason I encourage people to at least have some sort of foundation, so that the jump in improvement isn't so... startling

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I actually kind of love to be startled by art evolution

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I could see myself editing wonky faces and things like that more than I can see myself redrawing! My pages only take me like 2 hours and I still wouldn't redraw, can't imagine what your timeframe would look like...

But not in your own work, crona?

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It happened with a lovely comic called Wind Rose, and it is so inspiring

I wouldn't say I don't like it in my work

More that I was completely changing art styles too

Deo101 [Millennium]

I see

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think starting a comic is a good way to get those foundational skills though, lazuli

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Even if you didn't post it online, you did start

Which I think is enough

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

one of the biggest examples of art style shift I've seen

Comic is still doing really well though!

I don't think anyone minded the art evolution at all

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) Yeah, that's my dilemma! I've seen a couple very new comic artists burn out quickly, or say that they're relaunching because of their own unhappiness. And part of me wants to tell them to slow down - they don't need to post anything, just use it as a training ground.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Of course, if you yourself hate your old art you're probably more important(edited)

hm

It's still nice to have your story read though

even if just by a few friends

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I haven't read through it, but I know this is another good example...

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

another one!

This was intentional though, to convey a change in setting

It's kind of fun to look at these comparisons(edited)

I think most readers would feel the same

carcarchu

my most inspiring art evolution is from zero point idol chapter 1

chapter 90

the artist also got better at panelling too. also not only did the art change but the genre completely did too. it started out as a comedy romance then slowly became a drama romance

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Looks like you switched the images around?

carcarchu

oh it's in the right order on my side

the more bishounen looking one should be the newer one

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh! I think the more colorful one looks much better actually?

But perhaps the author chose a different style to draw more quickly?

carcarchu

uh i think the opposite

the newer art looks objectively better

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

okay i'm gonna look it up maybe I will think differently if i see a bunch of panels in context

looking it up it is definitely clear that the author is putting much more effort into later updates.

Though skimming it I still sort of prefer the style of the earlier pages?

carcarchu

i have never heard someone say that before

people usually complain they got gipped in the first chapter lol

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Can't say anything about the paneling or anything like that because I just skimmed it

Well, I like the style of the things in the first pages that they tried harder on

There are a lot of like, chibi or messy panels there

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I'm looking up the titles for these screencaps you guys presented!

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

The first one I shared is A Matter of Life and Death!

The second is YU+ME Dream (highly recommend)(edited)

mariah (rainy day dreams)

Seconded, YUME is very good and it's complete!

kayotics

I think there’s a lot of good reasons to restart or redraw past pages, but there’s a lot of people who DO get trapped in the constant iterative state of restarting/redrawing their comic, and then they don’t get anywhere with it

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

It's hard to come up with any consistent advice because people have different goals starting their comic. Like, some people just wanna do a comic to get better at art, or because they have a bunch of OCs that they want to do something with. And to those people... like, just have fun with it. Now, if you have a full story in mind, and your goal is to complete it in a timely manner that isn't overwhelming (without sacrificing on quality), this is the advice I give: 1) Plan out your story. You don't need to do a full script or whatever, but do try to have at least an outline, with an estimate of how many pages each part will be. 2) Spend a typical month (like, a month that you also have other work to do) drawing the first few pages of your comic. Don't post them yet. Count the number of pages you drew. The number you post per month should be less than that. e.g. if you drew 6 pages in that month, you should post 1 page each week. That way, you can have a bit of leeway to build a buffer without burning out. 3) Look back at that outline. How many pages did you plan it out to be? And how often are you planning on posting each page? Let's see... carry the two... this comic's gonna take HOW many years to complete?! 4) If you're comfortable with the task ahead of you, continue on to step 5. Otherwise, cut some stuff from your outline and repeat step 3. 5) Have fun with it! You might change your mind on future plot points, and that's ok! Just... try to do so in a way that doesn't create more work for yourself.

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

My advice is to just get started. I see so many people caught up in the idea that you need to perfect your art skills before starting a comic and then they just never start working on it

Your art is never going to be "perfect" and its better to have a tangible comic than a perfect one

I don't mean that in a discouraging way I just mean like no one can really achieve perfection and it's better to just create things

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I like snuffysam's advice because I have noticed there are different kinds of approach to webcomics. Some do it for fun and practice like I do nowadays. While others have a big long form series they are deeply passionate about but to start it seem overwhelming. Everyone's advice is pretty great! (edited)

DanitheCarutor

Fff I don't feel like I'm really qualified to give advice to people. I don't take art and comics seriously enough to follow most rules, so I would just be a bad influence if anything. Lol (Also everyone else has already said what I would.) I guess the one thing I would tell someone on the fence about starting their comic is to do it when you're ready. Like, I wanted to start doing comics when I was 15 but I wasn't quite mentally ready yet? I was used to doing illustrations so I couldn't stick with doing anything longer than 1 page, throughout the years I experimented with doing 1-2 pages of random scenes in stories I wanted to do, it wasn't until I hit my 20s when I was like "Okay, I want to do this!" In a way I didn't totally get into comic mode until my current project, since I was still feeling things out with the previous ones. Kinda went on a tangent there. Lol But yeah, comics are a huge commitment, I don't think it's super good to push yourself into starting if you're not mentally ready yet. Give yourself some time, do some casual stuff to prepare for the comic you really want to do in the meantime (brainstorming, concept art, character studies, etc.), or don't think about it at all if that's how you do things, then when you really get that itch go for it.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

My advice won't be anything that hasn't been touched on in this chat (so many good vibes ;_;) but I do wanna say that if I had any advice for someone to get into comics, it's to do it for yourself as the main priority. Webcomic popularity has been on the rise very quickly in this past decade, with copious amounts of creators trying their hand at their One Story, competition, exposure, and pressure are sure to set in with this wild ride that is comic making. So what do you do to combat that? How do you stay above water, make sure you have fun, or avoid turning this into what seems like never ending homework? You make your goal you. Whether You want to improve, whether You want to explore characters, or whether You just want to experiment- such a large project (let's be real, there's no easy way to do comics!) should be handled with that initial fire you had when you wanted to start the project, when you felt inspired to lay those panels down and tell that story. Don't compare your journey to others, don't feel that pressure to always Be Something.(edited)

Comics are a medium, just like film, canvas, or Video games for that matter, they have their own process and steps. Find what works for you and enjoy the ride, because it could easily turn into a long one!

eliushi [a winged tale]

I love it Krispy! You gotta do what you love

I’m just curious. What are your personal goals that keeps you going for the comic if you don’t mind sharing?

(And for anyone to answer too!)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I get what you mean and 100% agree with you. But I wanna bring up a caviat -- some people use the whole "do it for yourself" thing to shut down creators who are doing it for themselves, but also want some recognition. It's not their main priority, but it is a thing they want and it's okay to want it. I guess that goes back to the other advice about getting support. Find support, find people who won't make you feel guilty for simply wanting some recognition. People who will understand and support your goals.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

told myself that I won't let my self to lay my soul to rest till I'm done with the projects I have

so lmao that's somethin that drives me contracted to keep living till everything I do is finished lmao(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

One of my friends got told she wasn't a Real Writer simply because she wanted a readership. That kinda disrespect is not okay

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh dang

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

oh that is a whole different level from what i'm saying for sure

first off those people can go away lol

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeeeah

Again, not what you were saying, just... how SOME people twist the advice

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

and secondly, if you're not doing your work for yourself, you can easily fall into pleasing others and drown in Trying to Stay relevant, burning your creative drive too (i mean, if you can make ur comic and do that , good on you woah) but i've seen multiple comic artists crash and burn for the sole purpose of doing the comic in competition with others, convincing themselves that 'other styles' are crap bc their own work doesnt match up (gosh that was a rough one) and all in all, them just becoming so bitter with their work! THOUGH! this essentially applies to all creative fields and not just comics! And those entitled ppl who do that suffer from jealousy and nothing else. I cannot stand for those types who tear others down when faced with their own insecurity

and creators have every right to ask for help too. y'all deserve that recognition for the hard work you do, sometimes however, that isn't always available to them

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yea

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

(which is why we gotta lift eachother up!)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

You bring up a good topic that's very relevant to my struggles. It can be very difficult to know: is it okay to disregard this criticism. Am I allowed to do that? Am I allowed to like this thing about my work that people are pointing out as the bad part? Or does that make me a.... bad creator. Unprofessional, bratty, whatever. I'm not even talking about picking a fight/ getting verbally defensive. Just, silently disagreeing. I WANT to say the answer is yes, we are free to have our own opinion about our work. But dang if it isn't hard to feel guilty for doing it.

eliushi [a winged tale]

I think any trailblazers and pioneers feel this sort of sentiment.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That sounds about right

I don't really think of myself as a pioneer, but it is still something I feel in my bones

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I guess that’s the beauty of a self-run webcomic. You are the boss. Your viewership can give you critique, but you can choose what to listen to. You’re not beholden to a higher power (producer, director, patron, etc) to change things no matter what. It’s your project to run, and oftentimes only YOU know where it’s going, and you know how that criticism would change things.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ya lmao. idk like I don't see a lot of stories that run in conflict of towards what I'm doing so it's kinda nervewracking when you're like "oh god am I setting a good example or what? Should I be worried when I just want to create and share a story?"

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

If you can be proud of the story as-is, I think there’s power in that, and it comes through in the work. A confident comic is a lovely thing.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That makes me really sad that you have these struggles Kei. Your work is a project of love. Love for the things that inspire you, love for the way to tell your story, and love for that process. You are allowed to proud and tell the world about it, you are allowed to embrace the success that you gain from your work. We as comic makers do SO MUCH WORK and wear SO MANY HATS to make this mainly free to read story available, and that should be celebrated. SO YES, you CAN and you MUST choose what you want to take from others comments, their feedback, reactions, etc- but in the end, it's still about what YOU wanted to make of this work, bc in the end, you are the wheel that keeps this whole thing spinning

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I dunno about confident, but I can say my comic is an honest one. Even if I don't feel confident, I still don't let outside criticisms change what I do.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

webcomic creators aren't given the space they need to grow a lot of times too-- we're essentially producing work that easily requires a small studio to create- there's gonna be ups and downs to the process. But you have to keep in mind for your own sanity that this is still your work and your vision. If you want to explore options of improving then you should be in control of that. (we all know how i feel about crits from randos too XD!)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Agree so much Krispy. I think everyone’s goals and visions for their project are valid and if they sustain your project, then that’s a success in itself

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

agreed!

eliushi [a winged tale]

Often I see this tip and pass on to other writers that when they write their story it’s important to think of a logline or something central that is the heart of the story. I put that as my first page so every time I open my document I see it. I think it’s the same for webcomics. Find the heart of your story — why you want to write it and remind yourself of that. I find it’s helpful to keep me going

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

omg eli....i love that!!!

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

wow that is really great advice eliushi!! I'd love to steal that if you don't mind?

eliushi [a winged tale]

Please do!! It’s a gift!!

take ittt

Miranda

these are all such great suggestions. You people are a fountain of wisdom.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I wrote in the header of my documents, "everything bad that happens in the story is because of me, and everything good happens because of them." Basically to remind myself not to do any sort of ex machina or whatever. And also put my tagline. It definitely helps!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think it's a good guideline -- the "pure luck can only be the bad kind" thing. But my bro brought up the Walking Dead (I think? either that or some other really well known zombie thing?) as an example of going too far in that direction. He said the characters take a turn, open a door, etc. and the zombies just come pouring out like an unholy explosive diarrhea all of sudden, to a point where he was like "lol?" He said it was like the universe was setting it up against the characters, and he couldn't take it seriously. He's played/watched lots of zombie stuff so he's no stranger to jump scares or zombies appearing in hordes, but that one was still too much for him.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

wh lmao about that spoiler part like

Deo101 [Millennium]

Oh yeah no, too much of anything is bad.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah like, I can see that kind of extreme bad luck being used in farce comedy

Deo101 [Millennium]

Ahaha yeah

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I wonder what a story would be like in the opposite direction where everything bad that happens to them is because of them and everything good that happens to them is because of the writer

Deo101 [Millennium]

Everything Goes Bad Man A horrible superhero trying to do his best

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

A comedy! Could also make it a Shakespearean tragedy

Deo101 [Millennium]

Horror could make it work too

I was meaning my thing more like uhh, make them earn their good things and success kinda thing

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Depressing drama about a person who tries to succeed in life but fails at every turn

Nah I got it deo

Just throwing out hypotheticals

Deo101 [Millennium]

I would hate to watch or read any of these horrible things btw

But it's fun to hypothesize

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think for like, most stories, your direction is much more engaging

I don't want to watch someone fail over and over

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

There's also that trope where everything goes bad despite their effort, and then Luck just drops success on the character's lap, leaving them feeling empty

Deo101 [Millennium]

Me either LOL coming out of stories like that is always like 0_0 well nkw I'm just depressed

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

But I think something like watamote, a comedy about a socially inept girl, might be an example of what I said that a lot of people like. I haven't watched it though so I'm not sure

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, I don't know that specific one, but there are cases where people feel comforted by reading about tough luck in that "I'm not the only one" way. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea, though.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh

Grave of the Fireflies

That movie seemed more like a message about war though. It seemed like it was trying to say something

I think I could enjoy a depressing story like that if it was nonfiction or historical fiction

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It was sorta semi-autobiographical (not 100% but inspired by his own experience)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Something that feels real

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

yeah, grave of the fireflies WAS based off of the author's experiences

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I personally am okay with depressing fiction if it feels real

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Same

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Doesn't have to be based on true events

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

his sister and him were taken in by the aunt and they were actually left that way the sister died of starvation (edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Hey, spoiler tag that!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

whoops mbad

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'm one of those who is 100% not... I can be okay with and love depressing stories after having seen it and then getting time away from it, but watching or reading them is a horrible experience for me

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

My Sweet Orange Tree is thought to be at least sort of based on the author's own experience, and I think that adds something to the book. (Can't confirm because the author's dead.) But even if it were pure fiction, it would remain a lovely, compelling book.

@Deo101 [Millennium] Nothing is for everyone!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I remember feeling really depressed for the rest of the day after watching grave of the fireflies

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Not everything bad that happens to them was their own fault, but Grave of the Fireflies was sort of a story about pride though. A boy who refused to suck it up and apologize to his aunt, resulting in his and his sister's deaths. I think that did make the story more powerful

hubris and all that

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

so I can definitely relate to only watching short bursts of depressing stuff

Deo101 [Millennium]

I honestly try to avoid them entirely, not even short bursts tbh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

correct! however, a lot of viewers also blamed the aunt for not keeping them. Apparently the real life aunt felt a lot of remorse for being indirectly responsible for their deaths, and her daughter was angry at her. However, the aunt was also feeling depression from her husband who recently died

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I read them rarely, but I feel like they make me more? Grounded? I liked the way Man's Search for Meaning (Holocaust survivor's book) changed the way I thought of the world

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'm just hyperempathetic and they really hurt me

Not like I'm like "I wanna be ignorant" or anything

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think that one scene with the farmer telling him to suck up his pride was highlighting that he could have been taken back in but refused to even try

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Deo101 [Millennium] 100% Valid!

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Yeah. Entertainment is supposed to be fun or meaningful and if it's not then don't read it

Although, I do really believe we should learn about these topics in school at least

You have to be exposed to them somewhat

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I just don't like the kind of idea that gritty depressing stuff is more realistic, I understand learning about history and hardships but it's not something I like to think of as like "the truth jusy is that the world is terrible" it makes me feel very alone because I work very hard to see the world nit like that.

Miranda

Re: the extreme bad luck/I cause all the bad stuff for my characters I saw a tip that said coincidences can happen to get your characters into trouble, but not to get them out of trouble, and I thought that was an excellent way of putting that. (sorry to plop that in the midst of the most recent discussion)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

TBH as someone who has lived in Eccentric Relatives' House under not so great circumstances, I didn't even get any hint of "the boy should've sucked up" from Grave of Fireflies. My experience may have been worse than the boy's in his aunt's house though, and maybe my bias led me to see his experience as being just as unfair as mine. In any case it's been years since I watched it, so maybe I'm forgetting some key details.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think "realistic" means a mix of good and bad

My favorite nonfiction books contain a lot of cruelty, but also very good people

Reading about people's good work and outlooks despite tragedies really got to me

Or like, perseverance

Perseverance as a theme really, really hits me

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I like perseverance but I hate stories that are hopeless or treat hope as naiive

It makes me angry tbh

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oof same yeah

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

the aunt was still feeding them though, and allowing them to stay. If he had left his sister at home and tried to get a job like his cousins did, I think it is implied that they would have survived.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I do like my dark themes but lmao i dont want to go to wreckless cruelty. there's an art with that(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Endless pessimism is as unrealistic as endless optimism(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel like there's hopeless stories and there's stories that treat hope as naive. The former is like, yeah sure, not everyone's cup of tea, but the latter is like "if this isn't your cup of tea, then you're dumb" which is

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I don't mind dark themes it's just that sort of grittiness, humanity is inherently evil, hope gets you nothing kind of stories that I hate

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Btw. My favorite nonfiction books: Man's Search for Meaning The Gift of Fear The Gift of Pain (no relation to the gift of fear) All showcase a lot of cruelty and suffering but all are still very hopeful

I know it's unlikely you guys will read them but

They're good and I still reccoemend them highly

They are books that changed the way i think

They are also all written by people who have gone through and seen terrible things and yet made it their life's work to help others

I just can't reccomend them enough

But I will stop talking about it now

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for me, uhhh it's from famial experiences mostly

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Do you think your stories err on the side of optimism or pessimism?

@ everyone

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

since most of my family suffered from the vietnam war, a lot of stuff they told me were fist hand accounts of war and cruetlty

like from my mom, my dad, my aunties and uncles

even like the older members of my communties so that stuff is still fresh lmao

Deo101 [Millennium]

Optimism. I want to say neither but I know nearly no one would read it and say it's realistic

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh, I've had similar stories. My great grandmother had her whole family except her killed by a Japanese bomb and my family, despite traveling a lot, has still never visited Japan out of respect to her

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

but since they already living better lives I see that the darkness in those times have at least kick started them out to their kind of propserity or still striving towards

so I see myself as a realist lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I think my stories usually go a bit more on the pessimistic side I’m afraid. People have remarked that my more emotional scenes can be surprisingly dark, so I’m trying to introduce some more heartwarming scenes

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't wanna say "err on the side of".... I do bittersweet and slightly LEAN towards the bitter more often than not! But I think this particular aspect may be partly up to the readers to gauge.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think my story is realistic to me. The worst my characters experience is similar to mine, and the best is also similar to mine. But I have no idea if my own life has had more good or more bad than the "average person"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

"Sometimes life super sucks in ways you have little to no control over, but you can still be there for each other, and that really, really counts" <--- is this too bitter or just right? That's up to each reader to answer, I think.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Hey you said optimism or pessimism you gotta pick

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like there is hope and optimism but that is meaningless without the critical side of things. and I want to depict those sides in life.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Optimism

But I'm optimistic

Deo101 [Millennium]

Keiiii that's the way I write too and I think it's optimistic

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

My life has shown me that I can escape bad things so I don't think optimism is unrealistic though

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

You can't fix life but you can give love

Deo101 [Millennium]

Exactly

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i guess for my stories they kinda like what keii said like there's good side of things but lmao I somehow add some painful elements that they have to endure in order to have those good times(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

personallly I think stories work if you give people hope

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Eh, not every story is meant to give hope

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Yeah

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

but it's a good goal

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

like as long as you give people a semblance of hope, even if you throw some depressing stuff.....it can work. Oh, I meant as a bittersweet story

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

But I think not giving hope is unrealistic

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmao I guess I'm a target since the last story i write

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Though perhaps I only think that because I haven't experienced true tragedy(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it was just bleak in a hopeful light

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It depends, like I can imagine a short story that hyperfocuses on something extremely depressing.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Y'know what I have actually hopeless things in my life and I have 0 interest in reading a story that's hopeless

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye and that's fair

Deo101 [Millennium]

And even though I have hopeless experiences I don't think my life overall is hopeless

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

i wonder if people actively look for stories that focus on not having hope because i know many people read these stories as a way to escape their lives

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I agree on that. idk. for me writing stories that lead to an end that really don't work with both parties... could be just my morbid curosity in just seeing how things won't work out as planned for both persons.

could be like a philosophical thing maybe? or giving a different perspective of some sorts?

like "things are the same but given with the option you gave me, I can't go through with that"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I can relate to curiosity being a motivation for exploring dark stories. It's why I check out horror stories -- horror stories (games especially) show the MC in an extremely "wrong" situation at the beginning, and I check them out to find out the presumably equally extreme "why" for that wrongness. I don't think I could write stories like that myself, though.

Psychological horror specifically

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah, horror has been uh ingraned in my life to this point. and I like writing stories with that kind of edge in mind, more of the psycholgial aspects than horror.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Do you guys think some people search for morbid stories like these to not only satisfy their curiousity....but also to make themselves feel better about their own lives?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't particularly care to find out why Mr. Chainsaw is going around killing everyone in a splatter/slasher horror, for instance X'D

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's a possibility tbh.

sometimes I do that but I also had experienced simalar kinds of sorts that seeing those works i'm like "dang not alone in these wack feels"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I guess it depends on each person?

"Gee, at least I don't have any literal demons coming after my eyeballs" is not very comforting to me, personally

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i mean lmao

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Sometimes sad stories do make me feel more thankful for my own peaceful life but I don't seek them out for that reason

Deo101 [Millennium]

Imagine if ur disabled and that's the narrative used to make other people feel better about their lives

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

DX

Deo101 [Millennium]

Off topic but that's why disabled people hate "inspiration porn"

It's something that's really hard to explain cause "do you not want to inspire people" is really hard to answer

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah, those kinds of stories I really don't like at all.

Deo101 [Millennium]

So I wanted to jump on the opportunity to explain even though it's really off topic sorry

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No, don't be sorry. "Life sucks but hey, at least you're not me!" is not something anyone should have to put up with

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's understandable tho!

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

To be honest I do seek out stories about disability because I find it fascinating how people adapt to mental and physical changes. I find ingenuity very interesting?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I guess I look at it more towards like how some relationships with people don't work, and also the diaconomy between individuals interest me. Not for those kinds of stories but I've seen elements of that appear in some works i read in the past

Deo101 [Millennium]

I also seek out stories about disabilities, but only hopeful ones not like "my life is ruined and this is my driving motivation, to not be like this"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

One of the books I recommended was by a doctor who spent his life working with people with leprosy and the workarounds for missing limbs and sensation he and his patients would come up with was just so fascinating to me to read

It's something that's really hard to explain cause "do you not want to inspire people" is really hard to answer

@Deo101 [Millennium] I think I understand you but just curious- how do you respond to that?(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's usually like "I want to inspire people to be like me because they're proud of what I can do" but they're always like "I'm proud of what you can do in spite of-" and it's like. Idk just a deep sigh

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh yeah rip

i had that happened to me before like "Dang you do did this and you're from some a family that suffered so much--"

"uh huh please focus on the work not my life thanks lmao"

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like don't hold me to a different, lower standard. Don't pity me

Yeah exactly

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Hm it's sort of true but also if someone said "I'm proud of what you can do despite not having a dad" I'd be like fuck yoooouuuu

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like there's other things please

It's like, pity. It's not actually inspiration I think

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I'm proud of what you can do in spite of not having a brain

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

pity has left the building

like sure, yeah let's go with that but there's other experiences other than my background and my identity the brought out this work too. that's how we can get some unique voices into the field.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so yeah, I can understand rip people saying fustrating things like that. maybe they don't have a better way of phrasing it. orz

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

At the very least it's better than the opposite side

"your experiences were not that bad" angle

Deo101 [Millennium]

I get that a lot also

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

and sadly I too experienced that angle LMAO

Deo101 [Millennium]

LMAO tuyetnhi same hat

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

no one wins

hurrah

most of it came about because of my mixed idenity like I don't get hit by the usual racism my viet friends experienced

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

This is overall a very small thing but I casually mentioned I was attracted to women to a long time friend yesterday and she went full on "thank you so much for coming out to me this doesn't change my opinion of you I love you you're a great friend" And then the conversation got hella stilted and awkward after that and AG I Hate that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

but er.... I have seen people look at me and was like "mixed baby? that's hot"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Wtfff

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

"please no."

it's wack like u put me in a scale where that scale is already wack to begin with

it don't make sense lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

wait what the fuck

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

People are like why TF are u using a cane you're young and I tell them I have a condition and they're like, what does it do and I say the symptoms and they're like :/ I get those too :/

Freak out and tell them to get tested right away

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

also i really get annoyed when I see people just.......treat people with personality disorders like we're all psychos and tell others

hey at least you're not like these psychos

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh the telling others bit(edited)

Nooooo

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like my experience isn't that universal but it's already terible enough knowing that if you have mixed ethncities then you're treated as an "exotic creature" and i'm like "I'll shoot you down"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Mann luckily I grew up in a place where that doesn't really happen

I hope

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh my god i'm glad i live in a really diverse city and yeah deo....they do

we get labelled "troubled people" particularly if we're female in the mental health sector

a LOT of psychiatrists push us around and they use it as code for "difficult"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip I live where 80% the folks here are mostly er homogenous white folk

and they ask me these questions that I know boil me blood

I'm too poor for cali man

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

oooooof I feel that tuyetnhi i went to a really white uni town for my alma mater

i got called a tall chink by a frat boy there

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah I experienced that shit durring uni

it sucks

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

yoooo you can also come to toronto if you can't go to cali ;3

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I can travel to toronto but lmao maybe next year

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

maybe ;A;;

also @Eightfish (Puppeteer) wait what do you mean by your question? is it pertaining to personality disorders or to the race questions?

......yeah people tend to treat you better if they don't know you have a personality disorder

LMAO I MEAN TRUE, that's pretty obvious XD

because people think that personality disorders are untreatable. And I would like people to be more informed about them

Heck, a lot of people don't even know about BPD. So I'd rather that people stay informed about it, even if it means that I might suffer for it.

What if there's another person with BPD who needed help but the people around them didn't know? And I don't think it's fair to keep it hidden when it can easily damage relationships.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And also, "why don't you just hide that part of yourself if people treat you badly for how you are?" Is hardly ever a healthy way of dealing with things

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

better be informed than being ignorant

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yeah...I've actually considered just...putting a joke warning label on myself lmao

(but thank you guys for understanding <3)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

negatively changed? rip

ohhh nooo

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

yeah.....it's kinda like.....just because you have these negative experiences, you try not to let it stop you

because there's ALWAYS a chance that you'll meet people who understand

........I actually told a good friend that I had bpd and she started ghosting me. She was scared of me and thought i was...."weird"

and scary.

She was scared that i was gonna go psycho.

but I think it's important to know that not everyone is going to be an asshole.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it really is

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

i had a psychiatrist tell me that i probably lost friends....because i was a bitch ;A;

after formally diagnosing me with bpd

yeah and i had one psychiatrist just....diagnost me with anxiety disorder and he wouldn't listen to me just gave me a survey to fill out

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

makes them feel like they're 2d?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

yeah and they are usually very complex and have very VERY varied pasts doesn't help that the media paints us as monsters in horror movies a lot

you see sociopathy and antisocial disorder in the news a lot and then they see people with bpd and they're like

LOOK! YANDERES!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ooooffff

that's not even part of the DSM lmaO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

screams every time i see an article about how to "save yourself from someone with BPD"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

speaking from my experiences as a former psyche major

like that can't be determined solely just by those factors alone

cormidbity is a factor too

oh my godddd

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I get that a lot

also yeah psychiatrists..........they need to keep themselves updated man

they put a lot of blanket terms for people with pds because it's easier or maybe because psychiatrists are simply not equipped to deal with people with pds?

i mean look how many psychiatrists i've met or heard fuck it up with bpd

and that's one of THE EASIEST pds to rehabilitate

imagine rehabilitating someone with narcissism or sociopathy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

APD

is the proper term lmao

or ASPD

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

also eightfish....nope. it's a really long LONG road to rehabilitation. Some take years.

but it's kinda...a relief to be diagnosed OH WHOOPS

mbad

OH MY GOD THE TRANSGENDER THING

coughs in victorian times exCUSE me

hugs

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip this is from my understanding but if the condition of the disorder is either: a combination of bringing harm to yourself, restricting yourself from your routines, harm to others, or sense of losing control of your daily life then they will mostly likely dianoise. though that's what I

I've known years ago rip. idk if they hold up those standards today

or changed things from it

it really bites when you're seeking help and the folks that supposed to help you say like "but you're normally functioning so I see no problem ya u free to go"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

"if we can't see it you're not injured so get the fuck back to work"

psychiatrists who just brush you off because it doesn't fit THEIR narrative piss you off

like you're going to them for help....and they categorize you as they see fit

and when you try to go against them they label you as "difficult"

eliushi [a winged tale]

Hey friends, good discussions here but just wondering if it’s best in #general as this will be archived? Just want you all to be safe

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

ah okay! Thank you Eli

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Oof wait archived?

In what way?

eliushi [a winged tale]

Check pins(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

OH GOD

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Ahh

I'm deleting every message lol

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

(And this convo is off topic)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

will do man

Deo101 [Millennium]

already on it

I just deleted everything to about 1 cause I think thats where we went off topic

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Oh shit yeah this is creator babble

I will delete messages as well

[legionofpotatoes]

Okay then, since both of y’all are just delving in I’ll try to keep things (relatively) spoiler-free and stick to story sense and semiotics! Few caveats:

Have not had prior experience with Kojima’s body of work and if that’s a prerequisite in how I “should feel” about it then yike on a bike (just getting this out of the way based on what I’ve had talked at me)

My read excludes the entire context of moment-to-moment gameplay; I basically watched chronological story cutscenes stitched together with NPC interaction vignettes sprinkled in-between. 9 or so hours in total. 

I did this because the gameplay does not interest me at all - and not in protest of chill social games (I adore both No Man’s Sky and thatgamecompany stuff, for example, and try to champion anything without Gun in it), but because the setting and length did not align with my expectations for something to invest so much time into. Still, I was super intrigued by the story, and, to a lesser extent, the plot.

also I have a hard time writing in condensed English, so this may run quite long. I’ll put the rest under a break. Second language, sorry!

I’m trying to think of a good way to start this. Like I said, the story, or what the thing was ABOUT, was infinitely more interesting to me than whatever wacko packaging Kojima thought up for the narrative. Which was a complicated, thought-out piece of fiction shattered into many disparate pieces and fed to us in a mystery-box-filmmaker kind of way, making us reverse-engineer what essentially was a rather simple interpersonal uhh. family tragedy, I guess. 

But to its credit the lore is visibly built solely to support whatever thematic messaging Kojima would want to weave in there - something I can respect. Meaning it gets as wacky and as nonsensical as it needs to be in order to reflect the high-concept allegories at play, aaand then it does so to a fault. I adore works of fiction that don’t give a shit about “tone” - I hate that word more than anything in modern media - but effective symbolism in storytelling, IN MY OPINION, requires a deft hand, nuance, strong authorial position, and a good grasp of social context. 

I want to like, go through these four points individually and nitpick my problems with the game in their lens, because I think they cover pretty much everything I feel like saying:

1. A deft hand - to me means to selectively dramatize correct themes and plot points as you go so that shit makes sense in the end. I felt this was incredibly lacking here. It was like a symphony going for hours without a crescendo. The absolute wrong bits of soulless exposition would be reiterated THRICE within a single cutscene while necessary context of, hell, character motives or even plot geography would be left vague. Intentionally vague, some would argue, but their later function would never arrive. Other times, what would visibly be conceived as wink-and-you’ll-miss-it foreshadowing could overstay its welcome to the point of inadvertently spoiling a later plot point. My girlfriend sniped the (arguably) most important reveal of the game, which is left for the tail end of the final epilogue (!), in the first hours of watching. The symbolics and allusions were just too plentiful where they should have been more subdued. I am DYING to provide examples here but I’m keeping it spoiler-free. Again, if this is a Kojima-ism, too bad; but it’s not a catastrophic failure of storytelling by any means. There are very few masters of this thing working today. But what can be easier to navigate, I think, is...

2. Nuance - this kinda goes hand-in-hand with the upper point but is a bit more important to me and applies to what SPECIFICALLY you decide to heighten in order to slap us across the face with your deeper meanings. Certain characters - not all of them - feel like caricatures. The silly names and overt metaphors (wearing a mask means hiding something! connected cities all have ‘knot’ in their name!) are honestly, genuinely FINE as long as their function isn’t betrayed, but the lean into metaphor worship can sometimes wade into SERIOUSLY shitty territory as contemporary implications are ignored altogether, and that ties into my fourth point, which I’ll address before looping back to the third; needless to say, approaching sensitive subjects with broad strokes is not exactly the way to go. But broad strokes is almost exclusively what this game does, forgetting to incorporate...

3. Social context - and I feel like avoiding examples here will be difficult lest I end up sounding like a dogmatic asshole; but there is a right thing and a wrong thing to do when co-opting IRL concepts to fit fictional messaging/storytelling. I feel that a character “curing” themselves of a phobia by experiencing emotional growth that vaguely corresponds to what the disorder could have symbolized is a wrong thing. And I don’t even want to get into all the wacky revisionism the lore ended up twisting into, which was mostly honestly entertaining (the ammonite will be a good hint to those who’ve played it), until it decided to, again, lean a bit too hard into painting today’s reality as a crisis of human connection and imply some questionable things about why, uh, asexual people exist, for example. Yes it makes some sense within the context of the lore and what’s happening in the plot, but it’s completely lacking in social know-how of the here and now. In other words: a Bad Look. To me, this type of wayward ignorance is a much more serious issue that can historically snowball any piece of writing into a witless disaster. I don’t know if it quite does it here, but it’s not really my place to say. Still, you can have wacky worldbuilding that has no sense of dramatic tension, nuance, or awareness towards the audience, and yet containing one last vital glue holding it all together, and that would be...

4. Strong authorial position - or intent I guess, to speak in literary terms - and I still have trouble pinpointing how and where this exists in this game. A bullshit stance you say, and I hear ya; cause this here is a video game very pronounced in its pro-human-connection messaging, painting the opposite outcome as an apocalyptic end to our species. And as I understand the gameplay is all about connections too - leaning into that theme so hard it even renders itself unapproachable to most capital-g Gamers. I honestly respect the balls of that. But really, as an author who headlined the creation of this thing, what was it really about? What were you trying to say?

And beyond “human connection is real important to beat apathy” I got nothing, and I think that’s because of points 1 and 2 failing in succession, and then point 3 souring the taste. It just had to be apparent the moment the curtain fell, is what I find. You just have to “get” it immediately, get what it was trying to say, but that will happen only if it’s been articulated incredibly well up to that point. Maybe the entire punch of that message REALLY depends on you spending dozens of hours ruminating on the crushing cost of loneliness as you haul cargo across countries on foot and connect people to your weird not-internet? If so, I’ve missed a vital piece of context, and with this being a videogame and all, it’s honestly a fair assumption. But otherwise.. it felt like a hell of a lot of twisting and turning and plot affectations that only led to more plot affectations and sometimes character growth (which had its own bag of issues from point 3) and not a hell of a lot to say about human connection beyond the fact that it is. good and useful. It felt like a repeated statement instead of being an argument. Does that make sense? I understand the story optics here are zoomed waay out and set on targeting the human condition as a whole, but like.. if you’re committing to a message, you have to stand by it.

Why is connection good? it’s a dumb question without a DOUBT but since the game has set out to answer it then it.. should? Did I miss the answer? I may have, I honestly can’t exclude the possibility. My lens was warped and my framework of consuming storytelling is a bit rigid in its requirements (the four points I mentioned), so maybe I’m just too grouchy and old to understand. 

I just think Pacific Rim did it better and took about 7 hours less to do it! And yet, it, too, involved Guillermo Del Toro. Curious.

If you made it this far and are interested in my thoughts on the technical execution of it all as well, uhm, it’s pretty much spotless? Decima is utilized beautifully, the Hideo vanity squad of celebrities all do their very best with the often clunky dialogue, the music is great, the aesthetic and visual design is immediately arresting, and it certainly does an all-around great job at standing out from the rest of the flock. I fell in love with the BB a little bit. It is also a game that is incredibly horny for Mads Mikkelsen, which almost fully supplants the expected real estate for run-of-the-mill male gaze bullshit. It is. A change.

That’s all I got folks

[thefarrons]

FFXV is just so disappointing to me

Ok before I go any further I just want to say that YES this is a rant about XV however this is not in any way me forcing anyone to share my opinion on the game nor is it to shame those who do love the game.

Everything I say about the game comes purely from a place of excitement as a fan of this franchise and a fan of Jrpg's in general.

That being said let's get into this.

FFXV out of all the games in the franchise is the one game is the one game I REALLY struggle to see myself ever returning to in the future and again please don't think I'm saying this just to be edgy but I genuinely mean it. The game is in no way a complete train wreck however I just struggle to find anything that I really like about the game. I really don't think XV does anything particularly well.

Story/characters

Not gonna dwell on the story for too long because at this point everyone and their grandmother knows about the problems with this narrative but just to reiterate cutting the story up into a movie/ anime and paid dlc was a GIGANTIC detriment to this game. What square should have done was make XV as best as they could then made supplementary content (such as the movie, anime ect) to compliment XV's narrative. But since they didn't nothing in XV's story makes all that much sense. It's all payoff but no execution.

Luna's death and ardyns reveal should have been much more impactful then they were but because everything in this narrative is so poorly fleshed out you just don't really care and what's supposed to be a "OOOHH!!" moment quickly becomes a "oh ok." That's bad. I've said it once and I'll say it again but Luna's death I's easily one of the most beautiful and cinematic scene in the franchise however the entire scene falls flat emotionally because you the player just either don't feel for these characters, this off screen romance, or barely can even comprehend what's going on.

XV just has this HUGE pacing issue as well and it's just mind boggling how fast and abrupt certain scenarios and events happen and end. Again the transition from free roam in the open world to the Leviathan is such a WTF moment. It begins so fast and ends so quickly and abrupt you can barely even comprehend what just happened so you just forget about it and move on (not to mention the battle itself is shit but more on that later)

Or take the train scene for example. One second everyone's all fake mad at each other (particularly noctis and gladious) and then all of a sudden they get attacked by ardin and then gentiana shows up and is revealed to be Sheva and prompto gets kidnapped and this all happens within the spawn of 10mins (slight exaggeration)

The game just also has a complete tone and gameplay dissidence problem. Take for example when the party learns insomnia has been taken over and that the king is dead. It's a emotional scene (I guess) as noctis has just learned that his father is dead and his kingdom in imperial hands. Now what is noctis and the party gonna do about it?

Dick around in this open for a bit until coir gets in contact with them I guess.

Oh.

You also just don't even feel the weight of what's just happen as you just barely have a clue as to who the enemy is and what their motivation is. The whole game I knew NOTHING about them empire, their king or whatever plans they had. They were completely off screen the whole game. Which leads me into my next complaint.

The characters.

This is easily my second biggest problem with this game. A lot of people find that the cast in this game is the best thing about it. People find the Bros funny and witty with a lot of banter. I can somewhat agree with this. The cast is likeable and lighthearted which is a good contrast from XIII's moody cast.

Unfortunately a lot of this is ruined by just how one dimensional, corny, underdeveloped, stero typical and generally unimportant this ENTIRE cast is.

Look I'm gonna compare this cast to XIII and before I do so let me point out that I'm not trying to convince you that XIII'S cast is high art or that they are best written characters ever because tldr they're not and their actually pretty simple HOWEVER. Every character in XIII (save fang maybe) had an arc of sorts (and fang at least had a motivation) all the characters in that game have a problem (typically one that involves another party member) and they interact with each other to solve that problem and move on with the main one. You can argue just how "good" all the characters arcs were but none the less they were THERE and the characters did change. XIII had a lot of drama in the cast. Yes some of it was melodramatic and over the top but it was there and the characters eventually got over their differences and worked together so when they start throwing banter around in the second half it actually works considering all they went through previously.

Now back to XV's cast.

I'm not saying the cast needs to have drama between them or that they need to be fighting all the time or anything like that BUT you can't just have me go off the "oh we're just Bros to the end" without any real development or explanation. Why exactly are these guys friends? And what do they go through exactly? One of which is answered in the anime so it doesn't count to me and the other is just kinda non existent to me. During the main story I really struggle to remember scenes in which the party truly bond and have a moment with each other. The game is apparently portraying the plot through noctis perspective but he really don't get any good moments or arcs with any of the characters.

The only arc of sorts that I can imagine is the exchanges between noctis and gladious which in my opinion was some of the cringeworthy and forced scenes in the game. Noctis is trying his hardest to save everyone and deal with the hardships he's facing but gladious for no fucking reason is being a complete DICK to him. Everytime gladiolus opened his mouth I wanted to punch him or at least have noctis do it. Some have said that the reason for this is because gladiolus wants noctis to become a good king or whatever but unfortunately gladiolus doesn't say this until the very end so the entire game the player just thinks of him as an asshole.

And that's just one of many problems. Let's not even get onto promptos little "I was born in a lab" subplot that goes absolutely nowhere (at least in the main game)

And then the side characters.

I mean what's to even say about them? Their bland, unimportant, one note and show up only once. Aranea is the only good side character but unfortunately she shows up only twice and overall has no real relevance to the main story.

But yeah that's just XV's main plot.

A whole lotta nothing.

A lot of people even fans agree that the plot is the worst thing about the game but they say that it makes up for it with it's gameplay.

To that I also heavily disagree.

XV is a horrible story with mediocre gameplay.

First off I'm not gonna compare XV's gameplay to games previous in the franchise or even most Jrpg's in general as gameplay wise XV really shares nothing in common with them. XV is most comparable to an action game so I'm gonna compare it to games like dmc or bayonetta.

What's the end result?

It's shit.

Ok no let me backtrack some. I really wasn't expecting dmc or bayonetta levels of complexity or fluidity however at the same time I was also just expecting something competent. XV's battle system "works" and I mean that just as plainly as I write it. On first impression it looks cool and feels nice but as hrs start to pass you realize just how shallow, repetitive and poorly designed it is and can be.

Most if not all battles can be summed up to this.

*Warp strike and hold circle until you see an attack coming or have a button prompt*

*When hurt pull up the item list and use elixers*

Rinse and repeat.

The game never actually gets "harder" it just throws enemies with larger health sizes at you who can take you down in one hit if they're slightly higher a level than you.

And when the battle system isn't being boring it's bugging out. The camera is god awful half the time especially when in tight places, enemies rarely ever have proper attack patterns and just seem to attack at random making you just fucking give up on timing and just hold square infinitely.

Boss battles are no better if in fact just worse. Leviathan was just an absolute nightmare for me and ifrit was a well. The camera always got lost, the warp strike prompts were inconsistent ect. And if the battle wasn't infuriatingly broken then it was just boring case in point the final battle with ardyn.

Then we have the open world.

If this was what the sacrifice for the main story was then I'm sorry to say but it was most certainly NOT worth it.

The open world is visually appealing and on first impression pretty nice. However once you start really start "exploring" you realize just how boring and uninspired the whole thing really is. First of all the whole map in reality is just a giant circle with a highway connecting it all. Every area is just some boring fantasy locale you've seen in any Jrpg.

Grassy plain area, desert area, volcano area, beach area.

Wow this was really worth the wait I see.

It's wouldn't even be so boring if the games areas at least had some personality attached to them but nope. Not even a memorable tune is herd in this areas just plain ambiance which really doesn't work for this game.

The car was also a disapointment with it's on rails driving and what not only to look tacky and tacked on.

And...yeah.

That's just ffxv to me as a whole.

Just nothing.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Updated Thoughts on the Music Box

Good morning! One thing I was asked to post about is an update on the music box. I’ve thought a lot about it since S8 ended. You’d think I would be somewhat depressed or hopeless about it, but actually, I'm more hopeful than ever.

I know there are certain people, mostly haters and skeptics, who get annoyed when our theories change to match the show, but the fact is that as time goes on, we learn more about where the plot is going, and our theories change naturally. It’s only logical that they would. We’ve been wrong many times about when Beth will appear, but looking at the whole, we can see the structure better than ever before.

Let’s talk about the 4-season structure (S4-S8). When Gimple took over in S4, he set the show up for a whole new chapter, as was emphasized in the S4 trailer. He knew a 4-season arc starting with Rick as a farmer and non-leader in order to save Carl. Gimple knew he would move through Rick becoming brutal, having his ups and downs, and Carl would die. The whole point (as far as Rick’s arc goes) was that Carl’s death led to him showing Negan mercy, rather than killing him. It’s what brought Rick full circle and out of his brutality mindset.

Now we come to Beth. 

She came front and center in 4x01 with the Bethyl hug, so obviously she was part of Gimple's plan. Let's take a little trip down memory lane, back to S2. TD has talked many times about how Gimple introduced Beth. Though he was only a junior writer in the show at that time, remember that he and only he worked on her suicide arc. With that arc he introduced her to the fandom in a way that made them root for her. Not necessarily like her, you understand, but root for her. I say that because her mindset and actions in S2 made her be perceived as a weak character. 

Because she chose to live, people were glad and hoped she would continue to live, even if they saw her as weak overall. That way, they knew her and would remember her back story. That made it easy for him to have her step into a bigger role later in the show, which she did in S4.

I also want to point out that we actually know the showrunners have considered using Beth's death more than once as a catalyst for events in the show. Specifically, as a focal point of tragedy and to affect the other characters’ mindsets. They could've had her actually commit suicide in S2 if they wanted. They didn't, but if they had, what would that have accomplished? In terms of her character, not much. She would've been a disposable character that no one really liked and few remembered. But it would have caused a great deal tragedy for the Greene family. Rick and co. didn't know her very well then, and therefore wouldn't have been very sad about her death, but they would've had a lot of sympathy for the Greene family’s loss. Glenn would have had sympathy for Maggie, Rick for Herschel, and it probably would have affected Daryl, at least somewhat, because he was already in a dark place after losing Sophia.

Then in S3, although it again didn't happen, we know the showrunner planned to have Axel murder Beth in the prison. By then, the whole group had been together on the road for a season, and were much closer. Again, this would have affected TF bc of the tragedy of it, and probably been a catalyst for various plot lines. My point is that they planned more than once to use Beth's "death" to affect other characters and the plot.

After letting S8 percolate in my head for a few weeks, I've concluded that Gimple actually did the same thing when he brought Beth front and center in S4 as he did with her in S2. Of course, it was on a much bigger scale. He set her up in a way that would make people (Daryl) and the audience (again, because of Daryl) care about her deeply. Then Gimple took her away.

Her loss greatly affected both Maggie and Daryl, but also Rick and other members of TF. Because of Noah, it greatly affected events in the plot, sending TF north, toward DC, and sending Daryl spiraling downward into darkness. But I believe that Gimple very strategically reintroduced Beth to the audience in S4/S5 as 1) Daryl's love interest, 2) a person who's become strong, going from suicidal to bad ass, and 3) in an arc that would make us remember her and her back story and allow them to very easily have her step into a bigger role later down the road.

We see a lot of repeating arcs in the show, and the way they've written Beth's arc is no different.

So basically, I believe that Gimple always planned to do the 4-season arc and he had S4 through S8 plan from the very beginning. Because TD identified so many 8s or instances of 4-8 in the show and around Beth, we naturally assumed she’d be part of the 4-season arc. Obviously were wrong. But I think Gimple set her up early in S4 but always planned to have her return later, after that initial 4-season story.

This is been done other shows, in other universes. It may sound silly, but the best example can think of is the Marvel universe. (I'm sure there are better examples, but go with me on this.) TWD, like the Marvel universe, is full of dozens of different characters story lines, arcs, settings, and plots. So, remember after the first Avengers movie, there is an after-the-credits scene (not unlike Morgan's after-the-credits scene in Coda) that introduced Thanos (the purple bad guy in space, for those who don't know). 

People who read the comics instantly recognized who Thanos was. (Kinda like people who read the TWD comics instantly recognized Beth’s scars as being Andrea’s.) We then didn't see him for several movies. He’s the focus of Infinity War, so he finally showed up in a film several years later. So we had a post-credits scene where they set up a foreshadow or a hint of something to come. But they had other stories to tell, other characters to develop, and it was years before the character they teased in that post-credits scene came into play in a big way.

So I think Gimple set Beth up as part of his 4-season arc, but she was never going to re-enter the story until after AOW ended. We thought she would, and were wrong about that. That doesn't mean she won’t reappear, though.

To recap: Gimple, who is famous for planning 10+ seasons in advance, set up a 4-season arc, and knew from the beginning how S8 would end. He had all the characters and arcs planned out, so he must then have known what would come after as well. He must have S9 already planned.

He tasked a certain female writer (Angela Kang) with writing the important Beth/Daryl episodes, 

knowing that Beth would be written out of the story for a time, but that a return would be teased. Meanwhile, in the midst of everything that was going on with Rick's arc (remember what @thegloriouscollectorlady said about Coda really being all about Rick and from Rick's POV) Gimple apparently killed Beth off and then her body then disappeared. The episode in which that happened was called “Coda.”

So think of it this way. If the S4-S8 arc represents the main part of the song, well, the coda should come after that. Norman has hinted at a romance for Daryl in S9, we have some interesting things going on with Morgan in Fear, and Angela Kang will take over as show runner next season. Hmm.

Okay, I guess I haven't actually mentioned music box very much, so let me just say this:

The music box waking up was a resurrection symbol. I just don't think we can get around that. I know not everyone agrees with me on that, but we haven't seen any other symbol associated with a character that has woken up like that after the character dies. Granted, it would be kind of hard to do with other characters. For most others, like Michonne’s sword, Daryl’s crossbow, or Rick's gun, if they woke up and started doing things on their own, well, that would be creepy.

But they particularly chose something that could wake up for Beth. When Carl Carl found it, it was broken. They could've done things differently. The could've used her diary, or her necklace, or something else associated with her as a symbol and left it on the grave as they did with other people like Tyrese. If they wanted to use a music box as her symbol in this same way, they should've introduced earlier. Perhaps she and Daryl could've found it while they were together. It could have stayed broken or just worked the entire time. No, this was very specifically crafted. They used a music box to represent her, even though it was never actually associated with her in the show. It was very obviously broken, even after Daryl “fixed” it. Then, explicably, it suddenly burst to life and started singing again.

Not many ways that you can interpret that symbol other than resurrection. So I stand by what we’ve always said about the music box. It represents Beth being alive. I also think the symbolism we saw in 5x09 with Glenn breaking the CD goes along with this. Thinking of that reminds me of the line from the American Pie song: The day the music died… So then to reiterate that, we had a BROKEN music box. But then what happened?

“I still sing.”

Last time we saw the music box was in 5x16. I think showing it there represented, as I’ve said before, that the music box and what it represents are still in play, but we weren’t going to see it for a while. And we haven't. In 5x16, we saw Carl and Judith looking at it with the Morse code poster behind them, and it was in conjunction with scenes of the Wolves. All of which in my opinion are hints to how she will return. She will return after Carl's death, and probably in conjunction with the Wolves.

I also want to throw this out there. In 5x16, Aaron found a license plate on the wolf truck that said 816. We hoped that pointed to Beth’s (and possibly the Wolves) return in 8x16. Obviously not. However, we saw the music box in that same episode. So I'm wondering if perhaps it was meant to show that Beth and the wolves would return after 8x16. In other words, the current arc (S4-S8) would end after 8x16, and then the music box would return. Just an idea.

So maybe you will think this is compelling stuff, or maybe you’ll roll your eyes at it. Once again, Norman did hint that Daryl would have some romance after AOW, which will be S9. And Gimple said beginning of S5 that Daryl would eventually find love. So I’m going to reiterate this once more. If next season they bring on a new love interest for Daryl, and it's a genuine love interest, with a lot of the same symbols we’ve seen with other couples (like intertwined fingers while holding hands) 

and phrases we’ve heard with other soulmate couples, at that point I will finally give up on Beth's return. Because it will be obvious that they always planned a different love interest for Daryl and it’s not Beth.

But I don’t believe that will be the case. I think Daryl’s love interest will be Beth and she’ll finally get her coda.. The intertwined fingers always show a person’s long-term partner. If Beth wasn’t meant to be that for Daryl, they wouldn’t have shown us the symbols. We’ve seen them with Richonne, Carnid (which made sense bc Carl was never going to have another love interest since he died soon after kissing Enid) and we’re starting to see them with Carzekiel. Between these facts and Norman’s, “If Daryl falls in love with you he’s going to love you for the rest of his life,” Beth is really the only love interest Daryl will ever have.

I think we may see the music box again next season, just before or when she appears, because that's her symbol.

So these are my updated thoughts on the music box. It's going to be a long hiatus, but I'm very hopeful for S9. Thoughts?

[belizedeservesbetter]

There is a Good Way To Direct Children of a Lesser God

But this is not it

The music was just terrible. 

There was music that played at certain points and it was just awful. Silly Love Songs popped up twice. Twice. And it was so jarring. And then there’d be random mood music that was oddly intense? Which also didn’t make sense to me because half the actors in the play are deaf/it is a play about deafness so why add more sound than there already is? 

Anyways.

Kenny Leon pretty much directed this exactly as it is written on the page. It was boring and kinda weird. It was almost like he handed each actor the script and told them to just do it as written. 

But the problem is, is the script still good? The play takes place inside the mind of James Leeds as he recounts falling in love and having a falling out with Sarah Norman. He works as a speech therapist at a school for the deaf and is frustrated by Sarah’s unwillingness to learn to lipread and speak. There aren’t any actual props or scenery in the play, just the miming of it a la Our Town, but because there’s one noticeable set piece and a few noticeable props, that doesn’t really work. It’s an all or nothing kind of thing. Likewise, the play is about James but James is insufferable. He’s the worst character in the play, and half the things he says in the play (which takes place in the 70s) would never fly today. 

Likewise, James literally repeats everything Sarah signs before speaking himself, which is so bad. It’s just writing and reminds me of the one sided telephone call parodied by John Mulaney and Nick Kroll in Oh, Hello because Sarah will sign something and James will say, “Oh you don’t like?” and then say whatever thought he has to add and then she’ll sign something back and it’ll be like, “But why do I do it? Because–” and you get the idea. 

I’ve taken to thinking of Children of a Lesser God not as a great play, but an interesting one. There are a lot of interesting ideas in this play, and a lot of great lines too, but not many of them are elaborated on in favor of James aimlessly wondering around. There is something super profound in this play that just needs to be found by a director who connects to this play at their very core. 

They used this cool thing that captioned the play and it would’ve been great if it stayed on time with the actors. Also, it didn’t caption any of Sarah’s signing. This would’ve been super helpful and they could’ve cut half of James’ lines, which are just reiterating what Sarah is signing, and kept the play moving along. It also let you know which lines the actors altered/skipped, which made me laugh. 

There was a weirdly noticeable rift between who was a good actor in this and who was bad. 

Anthony Edwards and Julee Creda were not good in this. Their acting was stiff and very “I’m in a play speaking my lines.” It was almost embarrassing to watch, actually, because there are so many good actors out there who could have easily played these parts. 

Kecia Lewis (who I loved in Marie and Rosetta), Treshelle Edmond (who I loved in Spring Awakening), John McGinty, and Lauren Ridloff were all wonderful. 

I do want to talk a bit about Lauren Ridloff as Sarah Norman especially though because she was excellent. She was so expressive and so emotional and so present throughout the entire show. We almost didn’t need Joshua Jackson’s James Leeds repeating all her lines out loud because we could tell exactly what she was saying through her emotions/beautifully expressive signing. 

Which leaves us with Joshua Jackson, who plays main character James Leeds, falling directly into that rift. Sometimes he was great. Sometimes he was bad. It really all depended on where in the show we were. He was great during all the emotional moments, but would suddenly be kinda terrible during other scenes. He was a mixed bag, and I wish we saw more of that consistent greatness from him. 

Like I said before, there is a good way to direct Children of a Lesser God. There is. There must be. I just don’t know what it is. 

We’ll end on the final image of the play, which is the hashtag #StartListening. Ending a play set in the 70s on a hashtag made my skin crawl. Ending any play on a hashtag would do the same thing. It took me right out of the play and made me remember that yes, theatre is a capitalistic venture. Yes, they’re going for publicity so they can make money. 

But I didn’t need to be reminded of it. 

[thekindmagic]

7 deadly sins and FFXV male characters (main4+Ardyn, Ravus, Cor)

Alright, Anon, yeah, this ask is super cool??! Let’s dothis…

(I’m doing the paired-up deadly sins andheavenly virtues, because I like to think about strengths and weaknesses andhow those things correlate and contradict each other, because I’m a big damnnerd)

Cor: Pride/Humility

Not so much from anything in-game as somethingI’d like to see explored with him?? (I’m putting him first because he’sthe only one I wasn’t particularly inspired over and I’m kinda… getting him outof the way…)He was entrusted with King Regis’s protection at age fifteen. He has an incredible reputation, he’sobviously a phenomenally skilled warrior, and people talk about him like death can’t touch him. How do you sustain thatlevel of success and praise from such a young age and not develop some sort ofcomplex, how do you not start buying into your own myth? (These are my CrisisCore feelings bleeding through…)I mean, when he apologizes for Regisdying, he says it like he assumes he would have been able to stop it all byhimself?? That’s fascinating, it’s a level of self-assurance and responsibilitythat would go to anybody’s head and change the way they see the world.I’d like to think that Cor works very hard not to take his abilities andstatus for granted, because he just never fails,but he knows how dangerous it is to fall into complacency… For the short timehe’s in the party, he defers to Ignis for making a plan and constantly keeps aneye out for Prompto, he makes a concerted effort to work with the team. That’san interesting show of humility for a war hero. …But then again, he’s willing to split the three guys off and send them torisk their lives as a diversion because he’s unilaterally decided it’s the bestway to achieve the goal. He balances everything really well, he seemslike a pretty healthy character, but I’d like to see more of how this works inhis head, and the struggle it must have been for him when he was younger…

Noctis: Sloth/Diligence

Yeah, yeah, he sleeps a lot, pfft, obvious Iknow… Just stay with me, okay??Noctis spends the whole game fighting for the “never say die”motivation he needs to play his role in this story. Hell, he spends all ofBrotherhood looking for it, too. For the longest time, he doesn’t feel it. He’s depressed and almost hopelessand can’t see a way forward, so he mentally retreats. I’m not blaming him forit at all, but the sort of… stagnationhe falls into goes pretty neatly under what people usually mean when they talkabout sloth as a sin. He’s unmotivated. He’s young. He’s lost. He’d rather hide and sleep and playvideo games and fish.But he also knows that’s not an option, at least notlong-term.He knows he had responsibilities the second he was born, that people areliving and dying for him, that he has a place written out for him in the cosmoswhether he wants it or not. So he tries.It’s shaky and it’s miserable and it’s hard, but he pulls himself forward andgets his friends to help him push, he holds on to Luna and his father as theserole models for the life and duties he has to accept, and he keeps going. I love this poor little guy so much, he deserved so much better: he ranhimself into the ground until he thought he had nothing left, and then the godsasked for more. If for no other reason, I love the after-credits scene because he finally getsto rest.

Prompto: Envy/Kindness

This one was the easiest for me, I thought ofit even before the really obvious one with “sloth” and Noctissleeping all the time.Because this is the disparity that drives pretty much everything aboutPrompto?? (Ugh, this feels so self-explanatory to me that it’s hard toput it into words…)Just: “All thatpain, and misery, and loneliness, and it just made him kind”But it also left him reeling, and without any realsense of self?? As forgiving and understanding as he is of others, as much ashe believes they deserve support and always jumps to be the first to supportthem, he has incredibly highexpectations for himself, and he hates itwhen he doesn’t meet them. He literally tells Noctis on the hotel roof thathe’s jealous of Ignis and Gladio, he talks about how he feels like an outcastand wants to belong. Since he was a kid, he’s wanted all the things that seemedto come so easily to the people around him, the way they could walk into a roomand feel like they deserved to be there.But instead of that envy making him bitter, it just makes him hyper-aware ofpeople who might feel the same?? He’s so good and respectful with kids, he’s socareful to help and support Ignis after he’s been blinded, he even reaffirms toGladio that they missed him while he was gone after he rejoins the party.Whenever anybody might be in a vulnerable position, Prompto is right there, because he knows how awful itfeels and genuinely wants to help.(Sunshine boy

Ignis: Greed/Charity

I’m wincing at having to put the word“greed” anywhere near thisselfless angel… But at the same time??The knots he ties himself in are all tangled up in the fact that he wantsthings on behalf of other people, (specifically Noctis,) but god, he still wants them. Enough that his good wishes andgenerosity and honest desire to help are strong enough and mean enough to himthat he’s actually willing to potentially compromise his own goals.I can’t tell where the line is anymore between shipping and characteranalysis, but listen: genuinely, what Ignis wants is to be with Noctis. I wrote a whole thing about this, I’m notgonna reiterate it, but… Even their fight in Brotherhood came down to Ignis notknowing how to deal with the communication breakdown between them, and tryingto pull Noctis forward to him instead of acknowledging the distance. He wantsthem on the same page so hard that he sabotages their relationship. (I mean,it’s not entirely his fault obviously -Noctis’s shitty coping mechanisms certainly play their part…) Ignis wants everythingto work, he wants Noctis to succeed, he wants to be there for it and to play apart - he wants all of that so bad that he accidentally misses all the ways hecould actually be helping. He getsbetter at dealing with it by the time the game rolls around, he’s careful toonly ever offer to talk or spend time making breakfast, not to overstep, not tohold too tight… He’s always very conscious of what he’s giving and what he’sgetting back.I said I wouldn’t repeat that other meta, but damn, in Chapter 10, Ignis iswilling to die if it means he gets moretime with the group, that’s how deeply it runs, that’s how badly he wants. He’swilling to die even though Noctis and his friends so desperately want him to besafe. He’s willing to make that incredibly selfish sacrifice, he’s an enigmawrapped inside a riddle wrapped inside a taco, he can’t carve out his love andwanting even for the sake of the very person he loves and wants to be with.

Gladio: Gluttony/Temperance

Okay no wait let me explain?? It’s not just acup noodle joke, I swear!!“Gluttony” as a deadly sin is something I’ve always interpreted as… indulgence, I guess? Gladio does not have self-control. He does not regulate his impulses. He saysand does what he feels like, the second he feels like saying or doing it. He’sapparently socially outgoing, (though I tend to doubt he’s really as successfulat maintaining relationships as he’d like us to believe,) he apparently makestime for sex and flirting and all the rest. He makes jokes without thinkingabout their impact, and when he’s angry he yells and even gets physical. Hedoesn’t appear know how to restrain himself from committing 110% all the timeto every emotion and instinct he has. …At the same time, he’s an impeccably trained warrior, and a bookworm, andgives constant lectures about duty and control. We know from his backstory thathe got a scar that he could have avoided because he’d rather get hurt than hurta citizen in his capacity as the King’s Shield. I think he knows exactly wherehis weak points are, and he tries to compensate with his “knowthyself” routine and the way he kind of lets his job rewrite his identity.To a certain extent, he wants his world put in order for him; he wants to betold where the rules and limits are so he can stick to them. It’s when thingsgo off-book and he loses those guidelines for what is and isn’t allowed that hereally loses track of himself. He doesn’t want to lose control - he just has no coping mechanisms, he’s neverbeen made to confront the idea that he’s outof control.I wrote a whole thing about that too, I don’t want to getrepetitive…(And yes: there’s also his borderline fetish for cup noodles.)

Ardyn: Lust/Chastity

A fairly easy match, actually?? I’m not using “lust” so much in the sexual sense here, (none of theboys really fit that,) but more in the “lustfor power” way… The difference I see between greed and lust is that greed is a desire to have something, and it’s the thing you wantthat perpetuates the problem for you - whether you deserve it, whether you needit, whether you should be grateful for what you already have… With lust, thething itself doesn’t actually matter: it’s the way you feel about it that’s the issue, the obsessiveness, the way itconsumes you. It’s addictive and self-fulfilling, you want to want it, to revel in the desire: that’s what we see inArdyn the whole damn way. Whatever your read on him is, there’s really no end-goal here?? Whether hegenuinely wants to kill Noctis for revenge on the gods, or is secretly hopingto die in the process and put an end to everything… it almost doesn’t matter.Because Ardyn is too caught up in his own story to think that rationally, he’sempty and addicted to whatever makes him feel real and alive. Most of the time, that seems to be spite. But his angerisn’t an impulse like Gladio’s or a coping mechanism like Ravus’s - his angeris sensual. He loves being petty and bitter and spiteful, he loves the way it feels. He loves it almost ironically I think: it’s just so far from anything he ever felt before. The story of him as a king is self-sacrificial, he was a saint and a healerand every “pure white mage” trope character Final Fantasy has everproduced. He didn’t think of or gratify himself, he sort of sacrificed himselfat the altar of other people’s darkness and corruption. And now that darkness and corruption is all that’s been left to him.And in a twisted sort of way, he’s still being a martyr: he’splaying the part designed for him by the gods.The difference is that he’s got nothing pure or honest left in him anymore,and if this is what he’s been driven to, he’s going to enjoy every second ofit.(Honestly the sort of… perversion of him arranging the bodies in thethrone room played a big role in this decision too, as did his constant bedroomeyes and seduction voice. Ardyn lovesmaking a mockery of intimacy, but that’s a whole different post…)

Ravus: Wrath/Patience

What this boy does with his glorified walk-onrole is amazing to me, I’m low key thinking about Ravus a lot lately??He is so mad all the time about everything, and honestly he has the right tobe - what happened to Noctis at the beginning of the game happened to Ravuswhen he was sixteen, except Ravus didn’t have the luxury of best friends and aprophecy to go start a story of his own. What he had was a sister who wasseverely at risk from the same Empire that killed their mother, a country thatwas almost fully occupied, and a shitload of anger that he had to tamp down andchannel and find a way to live with. If we’re talking survival, Ravus really had no choice but to cooperate withthe Empire - I sort of view his grudge against Regis and Noctis as a copingmechanism, him displacing all the hatred he has for his place in the Empire,(all his resentment toward himself,) andprojecting it back on the people he’s made himself believe could have preventedhim from ever having to be in this situation. He’s so mad, it burns him up, but he’s gotten so good at saying “no, Ican’t, not today.” He’s so good at being quiet, for Luna’s sake and for his own, at turning away even whenhe’s humiliated and furious, at holding himself back when he knows it wouldn’thelp.And then obviously, when he doeslet himself get angry, he’s terrifying and unpredictable and does things likesend Gladio flying into a car or rebel against the Empire and get himselfkilled.His death as a daemon is the worst, because even though his instinct hasalways been to fight… Not like this, youknow? He spent so long trying to handle all the violence warring in him, andthen at the end Ardyn doesn’t leave him any choice: he’s made to succumb toit.(Again, compare him with Gladio please, they’re fascinating foils??)

…That’s probably more than you wanted, but it was really fun to do, so??

[twdmusicboxmystery]

8x09: Details

Good morning and welcome to my details post! First let me say that I’m going to do separate posts for the song that played for Carl at the beginning as well as to talk about the Red Machete clip we saw, so I’m skipping those details for now.

***Once again, Spoilers for 8x09 abound in this post. I’ll put them under a read more, but don’t read until you’ve watched. You’ve been warned!***

There were tons of dialogue parallels in this episode. So many, I’m not sure I even wrote them all down.

At one point Carl said, “It’s gotta be.” That’s an echo of the title of the previous episode, How it’s Gotta Be.

When talking about how he was bitten, Carl said, “it just happened.” I was sure we’d heard that line in show somewhere, but couldn’t remember where. I realized Daryl said that exact thing to Aaron in 5x15 after they found the remains of the group the wolves slaughtered. That’s the same scene where they find the blonde girl tied to the tree.

The meaning is slightly different in the two scenes. When Daryl said it, he meant in terms of time, this had just barely happened. When Carl says it here, he means something more along the lines of, there was nothing anyone could do; it simply happened and they need to accept it. Even so, I don’t believe Gimple ever uses the same dialogue on accident. He’s too meticulous for that. So I tried to think of how, if at all, those two scenes could be related.

I can only think of one possibility, and it really is just conjecture for now. In 5x15, the “this” Daryl refers to is something the wolves did. Namely, slaughtering a bunch of people. Carl is talking about something that happened (his bite) when he was trying to bring Siddiq back to the community. So maybe they used the same dialogue because something about Siddiq will lead us to the wolves. I don’t necessarily mean he’s a wolf himself, but perhaps because he will lead to Beth, that will lead us to the wolves in some way. (Because I still think we’ll see more of the wolves when she returns.)

 Carl also says of Siddiq, “He wasn’t going to make it alone.” That’s a direct echo of what was said when Andrea died. Yet another parallel to Andrea’s death. She said, “No one can make it alone now.” To which Daryl replied, “Never could.”

There’s a huge emphasis on the fact that they met Siddiq at the gas station. Carl told Rick that, and Rick repeated it at least once. It’s like they really want us to remember that gas station. Remember it echoed when Rick met the blonde girl at a gas station in 1x01, and they even had the same girl appear as a zombie in 8x01.

There’s also a lot of emphasis on the word “After.” Dwight says it would be best to wait until after the bombings are over to leave the tunnels and head for Hilltop. He says the word “after” about four different times. Remember it’s important for several reasons. 

1) It’s the name of episode 4x09, which is right after the prison fell. There are major parallels here, because that arc is replaying. Alexandria just fell and burned, like the prison, and now they’re heading out, somewhat scattered, to try and pick up the pieces. 

2) It’s also important because of Rick’s speech in 5x10. He emphasized that sometimes they have to do certain things in order to survive, and only after that do they get to live. Dwight echoes that exact same idea here, only in a literal/physical sense, rather than just a theoretical one.

Along with that, Carl said to Michonne that he didn’t want her to be sad or angry after this. Not only is the “after” theme there, but it’s a direct callback to the episode After. In it, Michonne was both sad and angry, going through some pretty extreme PTSD.

At one point, Carl said, “it’s not supposed to be like this.” Maybe this is just my TD reachiness, but I feel like that could be a reference to the time screw, to the way things are supposed to be rather than how they are. Hopefully it’s a clue that things are about to become as they were always supposed to be. It’s also a callback to what Daryl said in Still when Beth described her wish that Hershel would have died peacefully. He said, “that’s how it’s supposed to be.”

They focused on this white trailer for quite a long time. Part of the reason is that the saviors disappear from one side of the screen and Morgan and Carol appear on the other. So they’re waiting for Morgan Carol to appear. But I can’t help but notice that the trailer looks a whole lot like the FEMA one in Coda.

This one really jumped out at me. In his last words to Judith, Carl says, “you be good okay?” Sound familiar. It should. 

Ezekiel says to Gavin that he thought he was saving his people’s lives by doing what the saviors wanted. He realizes now that he wasn’t saving their lives, he was saving Gavin’s, but no more. This is a callback to Glenn and Nicholas in 5B. Nicholas said, “Are you threatening me?” and Glenn replied, “No, I’m saving you.”

This is kinda cool. When Rick and Michonne were still down in the tunnel with Carl, the candles beside Rick go out. Watching live, it happened too fast to see how many candles were in the cluster. The people in my group hoped for five candles, because the symbolism would’ve been strong that way. I looked again while re-watching and it looks to me like there only four.

Does everyone remember in 7x01 during the picnic scene, there were four candles on the table? Only two of them were lit, and Morgan played with them, drawing attention to them. This jumped out at me, because in the scene with Rick and Carl, the last candle of four was snuffed out. 

Back when 7x01 aired, I theorized the candles might mean two more people at the table would die before the end of the season. Actually, two more did but I don’t think they were both symbolized by the candles. Sasha died at the end of S7, and I think one of the two remaining candles in 7x01 was her, but Spencer wasn’t an important enough character to be symbolized in this way. I believe the four candles were the writers’ way of telling us there would be 4 major deaths in this arc (which began with the sunrise in 7x01) before it turned over again. Those deaths were Glenn and Abraham to start, then Sasha, and now Carl. With the fourth candle having been snuffed out, which was Carl’s life, the action turn over again. And guess what that means? 😁

Side Note: In the picnic scene, Judith wore the sheriff’s hat. We couldn’t have known it then but that foreshadowed Carl handing it off to her when he died. So obviously the symbolism in this picnic scene is very connected to Carl’s death because the arc ends with his death. I could even point out the matches on the table between Daryl and Tara. While we DID see matches in S7 when Daryl escaped the Sanctuary, you could make an argument that they foreshadowed the burning of Alexandria. Just saying.

There was a big emphasis in this episode on who people used to be, which I found fascinating. Carl had many dialogue parallels to Beth’s famous line, “you gotta stay who you are, not who you were.”

At one point Carl says Rick put down his gun and became a farmer in S4, “so I could be who I am now.” Rick answers, “I can’t be who I was. It’s different now.” Later Carl says, “you can still be who you were. That’s how it could be.” 

This is interesting because there’s a theme about how everybody was who they were supposed to be at the prison before bad things happened to make them different. We saw this with Daryl and Beth. She told him she had she told him he had to state who he was, In the present, in S4, rather than who used to be before the Apocalypse. In other words, a leader, a positive person people look up to, a person who saves people.

We saw something similar with Carol. In Consumed, she said, “At the prison, I got to be who I  always thought I was supposed to be. But then she got burned away.“ So once again, at the prison she became the person she was meant to be for a while before bad things happened that changed who she was.

Carl reiterates that same theme here with Rick. Who he was at the prison is who he’s meant to be. I do think Rick is meant to be the leader rather than stepping down from leadership as he did in S4, but we saw him take up the leadership mantle again, and the lessons Hershel wanted him to learn, near the end of 4a. Which means he was the leader he was meant to be, but only for about an episode before the prison fell and he became brutal again. (More on this later in the week.)

A lot of emphasis on the history of the show. I know it’s fitting because Carl was leaving, but my heart skipped a beat every time they talked about Atlanta or the farm, because all of those things connect directly to Beth.

We have confirmation now that the girl in the old man coda was Judith. That opens up a lot of possibilities on its own. People wondered if she was Gracie, because she had Gracie’s rabbit. Nope, definitely Judith. So why the rabbit? Because this is Carl’s vision of the future, rather than a sure reality, I think the rabbit is purely symbolic. That’s good for us, because as you all know, the rabbit has been a big symbol for Beth. We’ve seen them around her since S4, and they have a lot to do with children.

Also in Carl’s vision, we see Eugene give Judith a green apple. So, Apple theory. But it’s also green which made me smile.

After Henry kills Gavin, Ezekiel tells him, “It’s okay. It’s all right. All will be resolvedThat got my attention right away. I’ve harped many times on the “it’s okay/not okay” dialogue around Beth. But about a week ago, the theorists in my group were this exact theme. They talked about how Daryl and Carol say to each other a lot. One will ask, “You okay?” The other answers, “Gotta be.” The problem is they aren’t being honest with each other. They’re not okay, they just pretend to be because they “gotta be.”  

Daryl and Beth actually say the same thing to each other. It doesn’t stand out as much because we hear it less. In 4x01, Beth says, "You okay?” to Daryl. He answers her honestly, saying he’s just tired of losing people. It leads to the famous Bethyl hug. 

Later, in Alone, (you know, right before they start the grave stone with the dates) Beth asks if they can stop and Daryl says, “You all right?“ She answers him honestly, saying that she’s not and she needs to sit down. The point is that Beth and Daryl are honest with each other where Carol and Daryl are not. We saw this again between Carol and Daryl in episode 7x10, when he lied to her about Glenn and Abraham. 

My point is that here in 8x09, Ezekiel said “it’s okay” and “it’s all right” echoing specifically Daryl and Beth, not Daryl and Carol.

Rick’s speech to Carl about being sorry he can’t protect him was a callback to his speech to call in 5x02, when he said Carl was not safe. It’s also a callback to Carl saying back in S3 that they needed to protect Judith. Just lots of these kinds of callbacks.

Lastly, let’s talk about this shot of Rick sitting by the tree. Some things that I and others in my group noticed:

1) Rick seems to have been injured in the exact same place Carl was bitten. I don’t think this is a bite—there’s too much blood, and his shirt doesn’t look torn—looks like a stab wound to me. The symbolism of the placement of the injury is important. Obviously he’ll get this wound because something to do with Carl.

2) He’s sitting against the tree like Jim did in S1. I thought we’d see a parallel between Jim and Carl, but instead it came between Jim and Rick. I don’t know what it means, but it’s interesting.

3) I can’t help but notice the little pool of water in the background. They did a wide enough shot to include it, so I’m hoping it’s on purpose. We all know who water represents.

4) I could go into a lot of details about the crosses. The have all the right colors—red, blue, yellow, green—and just the fact that they’re crosses and Beth wore a cross around her wrist in Coda is important. I’m curious as to why those plate glass crosses are hanging from the tree to begin with. Even non-TD-ers thought he would be in a church, which is why we thought this might be a funeral. But it’s not. And why would someone hang these plates from a tree at all? I’m sure there will be a reason, but for now, it feels highly symbolic.

Okay, that’s all I got for today. Anyone catch anything I missed?