#(alicent asked to see the baby with viserys present. she didn't ask for rhaenyra to bring him herself. big difference)

[dirtytransmasc]

I'll rephrase, Alicent in the first episodes after the time skip treat rhaenyra like shit before aemond's episode and whisper to aegon how he will become king, so, in this time rhaenyra did nothing to be seen as a threat to alicent's children. And mostly because alicent is aware that viserys loves only rhaenyra, alicent should have preserve her relationship with rhaenyra if she really care for her children, not give rhaenyra a reason to hate her. The cold truth is that before aemond's episode most of alicent's choise are guided not by the love she have for her children but by her resentment toward rhaenyra. Alicent herself plant the seed for the dance, not rhaenyra. She crown aegon aware that rhaenyra will not bend the knee and that houses will support her but still forces aegon to take the crown and start a war, the reason why her children are in danger ARE HER NOT RHAENYRA. When people say that they're happy for alicent's end honestly i can't agree more because all the blood of the dance, not only her children or rhaenyra's but the blood of everyone, is on her shoulders and on her choise.

***EDIT AT BOTTOM***

ok, so, gonna try and be nice, but I've tackled takes close to this one before, and I'm getting a wee bit tired of it, but I'm gonna do it again anyway.

Alicent had no reason, to respect, love, or foster a relationship with Rhaenyra during the timeskip, and tried her hardest to prior to the timeskip, only to get walked all over, so she stopped trying.

I've gone over this in a few posts like this, this, and this one (these are similar takes, not exactly catering to this one exactly, so like, take them with a pinch of salt and focus on what caters to this take if your gonna go through reading them), but Alicent does not owe Rhaenyra any good will, at all, point blank.

Alicent tried for years, long enough to have 2 children, to reforge her relationship with Rhaenyra. this was after she was prayed upon by a grown ass man who forced her hand in marriage (after her own father sent her to the mans chambers, and if you try and argue she had any choice or say, or try to blame her for her marriage to Viserys I will gladly just send you to my many posts as to why that's a straight up lie, cause I've beaten that horse beyond death, its pulverized) and Rhaenyra treated her like absolute garbage, abandoning her in her greatest time of need. but she still tried to rekindle that bond, tried to include rhaenyra, tried to befriend her, she tried, and Rhaenyra walked all over her, leaving her completely alone outside of Viserys, her father, and her children.

Alicent tried, time and time again to help Rhaenyra as well. she tried to give Rhaenyra a choice in her marriage, kept Viserys's temper calm with her, helped set up a grand tour with dozens of suitors for her to pick from, a good grace no noble girl, or any girl really, could ever dream of.

when Rhaenyra had her scandal with Daemon and Criston, she tried her hardest to protect her then, even when it hurt her to do so. she believed Rhaenyra when she lied to her, on her dead mothers name, making a fool of herself in front of Viserys. she proclaimed Rhaenyra's innocence only to find out she had not only lied, but from her prospective, she had slept with two men in one night, one of those times it was coerced (since she had no way of knowing Rhaenyra hadn't gone all the way with Daemon), and that while her father received punishment and was removed from KL (leaving her alone at court), Viserys still didn't believe her and sent her the tea.

that is a lot for one person to process, especially from someone they considered a close friend to do to them. to be treated with cruelty over a marriage she had no say in and was hurt by immensely, lied to, used, walked all over, and abandoned none the less? I would have hated her too.

Rhaenyra goes on to do whatever she wants at court, while Alicent suffers her fate of duty. she has bastards and proclaims them legitimate, showing she has yet to change whatsoever since that event, an event that has had a negative impact on Alicent's life. Viserys turns a blind eye to it, as he practically had with the scandal (cause a moon tea and a marriage is barely anything compared to the consequence's Rhaenyra should have faced. not wishing ill on Rhaenyra either, just saying the heir to the iron throne deserves a little more than a pat, not even a slap, on the wrist for that). she's angry, its understandable.

and yet, even through her anger, she keeps her temper. sure she speaks to Viserys and Cole about it, but thats her husband, Rhaenyra's father, and her sworn sword and seemingly only trusted friend. at court (especially prior to the time skip) she is amiable, if a little passive aggressive. she protect Rhaenyra's name more than she has to, is respectful when she doesn't have to, even keeps those around her to honor some level of repsect when it comes to Rhaenyra when she doesn't have to (namely calling Criston when he calls her a cunt).

when they usurp her, she orders no harm to come to Rhaenyra and stands up to her manipulative father after years of falling to his words, and orders that he follow her lead, because she doesn't want to hurt Rhaenyra if its not necessary.

will I say she was the kindest person in the whole wide world to Rhaenyra? never, that's laughable. will I say she was kinder, more respectful, and protected her more than Rhaenyra ever even attempted to be, let alone was towards her? 100% absolutely.

she never wanted to have a bad relationship with Rhaenyra, but one person can only take so much before they break. she couldn't try anymore, Rhaenyra made it clear that Alicent was nothing more than a means to an end for her, that she would step on her if she needed to. Alicent shouldn't be expected to put up with that.

she attempted to remain amiable over the years, to keep some semblance of peace within the house until Rhaenyra was a threat, which honestly would have most likely happened regardless, as we've seen, Rhaenyra will step over whoever it takes to keep her head above water, being friends probably would have doomed Alicent and her kids even faster.

Alicent was never the seed of the dance, Rhaenyra and Viserys were. Viserys allowed Rhaenyra to grow into the person she was, a person who sought self benefit with little care for the realm and her image, she doomed herself and Alicent was caught in the crossfire. to

expecting someone to kiss another person's feet, even after that person has kicked them into the dirt time and time again, when that person had even tried to grovel and make friends once more for years, only to blame them when they don't, when they pick themselves up out of the dirt and brush themselves off and act in their own (rightful) self interest, for a war that they never wanted and were merely a pawn in, is actually wild to me.

Alicent acted well in her own rights towards Rhaenyra and it brought her nothing but pain. she tried to be respectful and dutiful for the house and the courts sake and Rhaenyra only became more of a threat. she tried her best to protect her children, the kingdom, and rhaenyra, and was faced with war, the death of her children, and her own demise. one woman can only do and be so much, and its never enough.

and if you want to point out the ways Alicent could have been better, start pointing out the ways Rhaenyra could have been, cause her list is a lot longer. they both weren't perfect, but Alicent was forced into a life she did not ask for, given children to protect that went unloved and unwanted by their father, thrown into a conflict that had been building for years, and still tried, Rhaenyra made her own bed and refused to lay in it. one deserves more blame for the war than the other.

Edit: one thing I forgot to mention in both posts. Alicent stopped trusting Rhaenyra after her father was removed from court, rightfully so, cause she saw Rhaenyra would always get away with anything at the expense of others, and then years pass, so yeah, she wants Aegon to be king. is this wise or kind of her? I don't know, I think she's fucking earned it, we have 0 idea what has happened in those years inbetween, other than Rhaenyra having 3 bastards and claiming them as legitimate. I'd be pissed, I'd be scared (cause thats threat enough alone in my opinion), and I'd want to push my own legitimate children, especially if I had been at the but of Rhaenyra's behavior prior, I would not trust that situation to go anyway but belly up for me. if you disagree so be it, I'm not gonna convince anyone to change their minds on this specific scene. she told Aegon he would be king because despite not being a massive sore thumb of a threat, she's still, as a female heir with a firstborn son right behind her, a threat to her children nonetheless (cause politics, yippee, I don't like it but its true). she knew it would be Rhaenyra or her child, and she would always pick her son.

[darkestspring]

Could you do a fic about what if rhanerya and criston had a daughter ( reader) from that one night and she looks just like rhanerya so ppl assume that she is rhaneryas and Leanor’s only true born kid and rhanerya is a yandere parent and doesn’t let criston near her baby and criston just has to deal with seeing leanor,Harwin , and daemon all being father figures to his little girl and when she married aegon he finally has the opportunity to have a relationship with his baby since she is finally away from her mother?

you were a lovely child.

That was Ser Criston Cole's first thought of you.

You were indeed a lovely child, his lovely child. he had no absolute proof that you were his but he knew that you were.

There was one problem, he was a knight sworn to have no children, but here you were, estranged from him as you were.

Estranged was a strong word, you were kept away from him by your mother, you didn't know of him.

"Ser, is mother really going to be okay?" Your soft voice carried over to where he was escorting Alicent. You looked up at Ser Harwin with soft eyes full of concern.

You were such a lovely child. So concerned over that... mother of yours.

"She'll be okay, Princess." Ser Harwin assured you, pressing his hand on top of your head as your smile finally returned and Criston felt jealousy.

as irrational as it sounded, it should have been him.

That's why he found joy in taunting Ser Harwin as you entered the area to watch your brothers. He ignored how Aegon practically preened under your attention on him, brief as it was.

See how violent he is, Crison spoke internally, see how unfit he is to be by your side, my beloved girl.

Then there was the issue of Laenor, that incompetent "father" of yours. He wasn't fit either. He wasn't fit to be your father nor was he fit to be loved by you.

But an opportunity presented itself and as much as the sight of Prince Aemond horrified him, it was a brilliant opportunity.

"My granddaughter will marry my son, Aegon. Let peace be had." Viserys' words had been final and Alicent kept her silence seeing the anguish on Rhaenyra's face as she held you close, tears in her eyes as it was you murmuring words of comfort to her rather than the other way around.

Serves her right for keeping you away from him.

Ser Criston's dark, disapproving gaze went right through Daemon as he patted your shoulder softly, the same affection in his eyes. The love of a father.

This wouldn't do. He was your father and now you'd be here, where he could protect you. Where they couldn't reach you.

Alicent had disapproved at first, lamenting over the fact that it hadn't been Aemond that you married but you brushed it off quickly, never fully disconnecting from Aegon's side.

Aegon lessened his alcohol intake. Never fully stopping but he stopped drinking as much, always laughing softly as your nose scrunched up at the smell.

You could have done worse so, it was good that you were here.

"Ser Criston." You voice sounded surprised as you saw him guarding your door. "I thought you'd be guarding the queen." You trailed off softly.

"I was given direct orders to protect you, princess." He responded as if he hadn't pleaded with alicent for the opportunity. "Should you not be asleep?"

His chiding reminded you of your father figures and you felt melancholic.

"I can never sleep properly at night. It gets so cold at night." You sighed softly.

"Shall i acquire more covers for you?" He jumped at the opportunity to help you.

He was awarded with your smile, your sweet, beaming smile as you nodded. "I would really appreciate it if you could."

what wouldn't he do for you? All you need to do is ask.

[selkiewife]

Rhaenyra and Aemma

I think it's interesting we see this exchange from Alicent and Rhaenyra:

ALICENT: You're worried your father is about to overshadow you with a son. RHAENYRA: I only worry for my mother. I hope for my father that he gets a son. As long as I can recall, it's all he's wanted.

And then in the next scene we hear from Aemma:

AEMMA: Rhaenyra has already declared that she is to have a sister. VISERYS: Really? AEMMA: She even named her. VISERYS: Dare I ask? AEMMA: Visenya. She chose a dragon's egg for the cradle that she said reminded her of Vhagar.

At first I thought that Rhaenyra was hiding her true desire from Alicent for us to hear the truth from her mother. And if it were just that- no shade AT ALL. I mean, why not have ambition? Why not want to be heir? Why not want to rule?

But I do think that Rhaenyra's emotions about being heir are more related to being loved and being valued by her parents. Her entire life she has not been enough- she has seen her mother go through all of these tragic stillbirths as a child and of course she would come to the conclusion that her mother's pain and her father's insistence on a son means that she is not enough. So there is already some resentment about the idea of a brother. But I don't think it's so much that, as Alicent says, she is frightened of the son overshadowing her. It is more that she is hurt that the pursuit of a male heir has been overshadowing her for her entire life.

I do believe her when she said that she hopes her father gets a son though- even though it hurts her, she would be happy for him I think. And it would be a relief that this painful pursuit of a male heir would be over for her mother. But then why does she declare that she is to have a sister?

I think that maybe it is to make Aemma feel less stressed honestly. We see how upset Aemma is when she talks to Viserys about the pressure she is under to produce a male heir:

AEMMA: The tourney to celebrate the firstborn son that we presently do not have. You do understand nothing will cause the babe to grow a cock if it does not already possess one?

And then after he tells her his dream again:

AEMMA: Born wearing a crown? Gods spare me, birth is unpleasant enough as it is. This is the last time, Viserys. I've lost one babe in the cradle, had two stillbirths, and two pregnancies ended well before their term. That's five in twice as many years. I know it is my duty to provide you an heir, and I'm sorry if I have failed you in that. I am. But I've mourned all the dead children I can.

This is so heartbreaking. Aemma is under so much pressure and has dealt with so much grief- and feels as though she failed Viserys and the realm. And so I think that Rhaenyra is trying to boost her mother's spirits and telling her that it will be wonderful if the baby turns out to be a girl. It goes deeper, I think, than Rhaenyra not wanting a boy to overshadow her. As I mentioned before, the quest for a boy has already overshadowed he and it is not as though she will be heir (or so she believes) even if the baby is a girl. Daemon is currently heir and I am sure Rhaenyra doesn't think that will change. I think she is telling her mom she is hoping for a girl so that her mother does not feel like she failed if the baby is a girl. I think she is acting out excitement and anticipation for a girl because she feels like she didn't have that for her own birth. She probably thinks that her birth was a disappointment for her father and her mother. Should the baby happen to be a sister this time, she doesn't want the her to come into the world as a disappointment like she did. She wants her sister to come into the world wanted and valued.

I think it makes sense that Rhaenyra would do this because we can see Rhaenyra's concern for her mother in their first (and last!) exchange:

RHAENYRA: Did you sleep? AEMMA: I slept. RHAENYRA: How long? AEMMA: I don't need mothering, Rhaenyra. RHAENYRA: Well, here you are, surrounded by attendants, all focused on the babe. Someone has to attend to you. AEMMA: You will lie in this bed soon enough, Rhaenyra. This discomfort is how we serve the realm.

It's interesting that Aemma says "I don't need mothering," because her own mother, Daella Targaryen, died in childbirth (they don’t mention it in the show but it is in Fire and Blood.) So she would have grown up without mothering. It also struck me that while Aemma tries to mother Rhaenyra by giving her practical advice about “the order of things” for a woman in their world, Rhaenyra’s style of “mothering” Aemma is to point out how important she is and to ensure that she is being taken care of- and prioritizing her above the baby. It’s sad because Rhaenyra is essentially mothering her own mother in the way she wishes she was mothered. Rhaenyra wants to live in a world where, as Arya Stark said, “The woman is important too!” And it’s a glimpse of how she would have mothered her own stillborn daughter, Princess Visenya, or supported a sister if one had been born to her parents.

[queenvhagar]

How did Alicent not create and further a hostile environment when she essentially forced Rhaenyra to present her baby immediately after childbirth, and acted with mocking concern that Rhaenyra walked all the way to her. Even while Alicent KNEW her mother died in childbirth. Alicent furthering rumors that her children are bastards, Alicent making Rhaenyra’s life hell and dangerous so much that she left to Dragonstone, Alicent leading to Harwin’s death. By your logic Cersei didn’t create any hostile environment either since they’re all just blameless women who don’t have power. Cersei couldn’t stop Joffrey from doing anything so Sansa has no right to hate her then

Alicent asked the baby be brought to her sometime after birth, and Rhaenyra chose to maliciously comply by carrying the baby herself, so people would see how bad Alicent was for making her go all that way when in reality Alicent just asked for a servant to bring the baby to her. Why did both of them do this? Well, it's clearly established that at this point there's been a decade of back and forth shot-taking at each other. The green dress moment, this incident, the contrasting opinions at the small council, the petty comments... all of this is indicative of the two of them trying to power play each other out because they didn't like each other. In this case, Alicent wanted to confirm for herself the third bastard, and Rhaenyra knew this and decided to accompany the baby despite Alicent not asking her to in order to shift the focus onto Alicent's request being unreasonable and away from the idea that she was requesting to see the baby so soon to confirm its parentage in the first place. It's them playing with perception of others here and trying to control the situation better than the other. Again, because there is a mutual dislike each other and there are competing interests between the two women.

None of the women in this story are wholly powerless, but there are women who have more or less power than others. Rhaenyra always had more power than Alicent, point blank. Rhaenyra is a Targaryen dragonrider, in the king's eyes his favorite and "only" child, and named heir to the throne. Alicent is the non-Valyrian dragonless daughter of a second son, and even though she became Viserys' second queen, clearly the king did not value her, setting her aside, laughing at her in public, calling her the wrong name in front of others, and he clearly did not care at all about their children together. The power level between the two is uneven, and it's crazy that people seem to think somehow Alicent is this all powerful villain who could have one-sided outright bullied a poor, powerless, helpless Rhaenyra. The power difference is clearly seen at Driftmark, when Rhaenyra gets the king to do everything she asks while Alicent begs him for any care about her son just to be ignored. All along Rhaenyra could wield her father's favoritism to benefit her, and she did, in that moment and again when Vaemond Velaryon came to court.

It's also important to acknowledge that the bastard "rumor" was not solely a Green creation that Alicent decided to make up with the purpose of making Rhaenyra look bad or something. As Aegon put it at Driftmark, everyone had eyes and could see that these white skinned brown haired boys clearly looked more similar to the white skinned brown haired man always at Rhaenyra's side than her husband, with his dark skin and white hair, who spent less time with Rhaenyra and the family than Harwin and more time with his squires. This plain fact is damaging and dangerous to Rhaenyra, but Rhaenyra is to blame for this. Her and Laenor tried maybe once before she immediately became pregnant with Jace by Harwin, according to the timeline, and as Margaery and actual history shows us it was definitely possible for queer men to have gotten a woman pregnant with the purpose of producing an heir. However, Rhaenyra was just interested in acting to their arrangement of dining as she pleased, and then proceeded to recklessly have not one but three clear pieces of evidence to her breaking her vow to her husband (which maybe is less scandalous to us, the modern viewer, but oath breaking is pretty serious in Westeros, especially for women). And before there's an argument of how she was forced to marry a gay man... Rhaenyra (and Daemon) did that. She left her marriage tour to pick her own match among hundreds of suitors early and then was seen in a brothel with Daemon, tarnishing her reputation and forcing her father to quickly marry her to a Velaryon (and of course Daemon brought her there with the purpose of sullying her reputation enough so Viserys would just let Daemon marry her). The funny thing here is that Harwin himself could have been a marriage candidate as the heir to Harrenhall and an active member at court, and he was certainly an option to consider! But she lost her chance. As heir to the throne and a Targaryen woman, there was no situation where she would not have needed to get married and make an heir, and Rhaenyra should have known this and considered her options while she had them. Then even when she was married to Laenor, there were ways around his queerness. Try to have a baby, or petition that he's infertile and the marriage should be absolved on that grounds so she can marry someone else. But Rhaenyra wanted to have her cake and eat it too; she wanted the Velaryons on her side to support her claim to the throne and a son of hers to one day inherit Driftmark, and she wanted to only have sex with Harwin and have his babies. Both were impossible at the same time if she wanted to avoid conflict.

Essentially, all of this put together, it was through her own choices that Rhaenyra had three obvious bastards that weakened her own claim and put herself in the middle of a political scandal. And even when Alicent talked about it at all, it was only with Viserys, Criston, and Larys in private (and she potentially told her children, likely to warn them of the further succession crisis this would cause when Rhaenyra or her sons try to come to power despite their weak claims and bastard status in this society that despises bastards). Obviously all of them already had eyes and knew the truth, and Criston had also already known the truth of what was going on because Rhaenyra explicitly had told him about the arrangement, and it was clear that Harwin was the one who filled that role for her. So when the third bastard is born, he goads Harwin into fighting him, exposing his role in the situation, and the attention on Harwin this causes results in Lionel Strong sending him back to Harrenhall. Then, Larys takes advantage of the situation to kill them both and become Lord of Harrenhall. He says he did it for Alicent, to get her father back, but realistically there's no reason to expect Viserys should have even asked Otto back as Hand after firing him (and he really shouldn't have, if he was trying to help Rhaenyra consolidate power). All of this considered, it's a pretty big step to say that Alicent is to blame for Harwin's death. I personally say it was Harwin's decision to be Rhaenyra's lover and father to her children that got him sent away from court, and then it was his own brother's decision to kill him for power.

Not exactly sure what your point is trying to bring up Cersei when the contexts are pretty different... like sure she was a lady married to a king who didn't love her and then she fought for her children's rights ruthlessly. But Cersei has a closer parallel in Rhaenyra, to be honest: a mother to three bastards who uses them to usurp thrones they have no real claim to and who ignores their misdeeds completely and/or weaponizes them against their victims. The obvious parallel here is Joffrey threatening and cutting the butcher's boy, getting attacked by Nymeria, and Cersei immediately pushing her own version of events that unquestionably paints her son as the ultimate victim and demanding the king take action against the others, and the Strong boys ambushing Aemond with a knife, beating on him four on one, cutting out his eye, and then Rhaenyra immediately pushing her own version of events that unquestionably paints her sons as the ultimate victims and demanding the king take action against the others. Cersei definitely did create hostile environments through her actions, as did Rhaenyra. Cersei could have tried to control Joffrey better, but she was unwilling to acknowledge his flaws or try to hold him accountable when he had done wrong. Almost like how Rhaenyra never talked to her boys about jumping a kid and cutting his eye out because she was unwilling to acknowledge their role in the situation or hold them accountable for their actions. Both mothers saw their children as largely flawless and were unwilling to confront them with their mistakes or misdeeds.

[greenqueenhightower]

Alicent's Moon Tea—Analysis:

The scene opens with Alicent examining the dragon that has come to signify her union with Viserys.

Back in 1x02, Alicent visits the King in his chamber and they have a conversation about the legacy of Old Valyria. Viserys holds this little dragon statuette in his hands and he drops it by mistake.

Later in the same episode, she has it mended and presents it to him as a gift.

This gesture meant so much to Viserys that a few scenes later, we see him playing with it as he contemplates his choice of wife. In the same episode, he affirms his decision to marry Alicent before his council.

In 2x04, Alicent contemplates her life choices as she observes the little dragon that bound her to Viserys. She slides her finger over the crack she mended for him. He has kept it all these years, so why didn't he love her or her children? She keeps it as a reminder of how young and naive she was to think she would learn to love him in time.

It is early in the morning and Alicent has asked for moon tea. She is expecting it any moment as she is lost in reverie about her conversation with Rhaenyra and her discovery that what she thought was Viserys' display of care and affection towards her and Aegon was a lie. She is in a sensitive but also empowering state of mind. The door opening startles her. The Grand Maester is here. She drops the dragon statuette, which breaks again into two pieces. The bond is severed beyond repair.

She now has two difficult decisions to make.

She greets the Maester and says she will deliver the moon tea discreetly. The Maester meaningfully pauses and says: “do report if the... recipient has any need of remedy,” suspecting she will use it herself and basically advising her to seek his aid in case things go horribly wrong and she needs treatment. Yet Alicent is building that wall around her ever more secure and tight: “I shall observe the girl closely.” He needs to understand that she is not the recipient.

An awkward pause follows when the Maester stares at her—he is not so easily convinced but she is the Queen so he ought not inquire further. He starts to leave. And then Alicent does something intriguing: she stops him to inquire about Viserys.

Is this a ruse, a bluff, a subterfuge? Does she want to make the Maester believe that she will not be attending the council they have together in a few minutes because she is too occupied with thoughts about her husband? How will she excuse her absence to him? Surely, when she fails to appear at the council meeting he will suspect that she has drunk the moon tea.

"Do you believe Viserys wanted Aegon to succeed him?" she asks. Does she really want to know his answer to that question, or does she merely want him to view her as exhausted, distraught, and too burdened by the recent events? Alicent knows that no one can answer this question with certainty. So what is she aiming at? She is willing to let him ascribe her a weakness that governs her frame of mind in order to control him. She is manipulating him.

Alicent expertly diverts his attention elsewhere, away from the moon tea. Now her absence can be justified. She is pensive and downcast because of her increasing concern regarding Aegon’s ascension and his fitness to rule. Alicent is playing the game.

After he is gone, she picks up the jar and touches her belly one time. She has made her mind up. “This is it, this baby has to go,” is as if she's telling herself. She is self-assured and certain of her decision at that moment. Her body finally belongs to her, and this is how she can prove it to herself. She drinks the moon tea and she is fully aware of the dangers involved but she has the abortion anyway.

For the first time, she weaves the threads of her own narrative, as she controls her image and her body.

[nyracel]

someone sent me an anon ask about the anti rhaenyra agenda most rhaenicent shippers have and like a dumbass i accidently deleted it so i'm just going to try my best to re-answer it here (yes i wrote a whole spiel about it and now it's gone forever and i'm upset.)

from what i can tell there are only two reasons as to why people can't stand rhaenyra but love rhaenicent; and it's because they either have some heavy internalized misogyny OR that's the only way to continue and keep their uwu sad lesbian alicent headcanons semi-tethered in reality. alicent is a character that has next to no positive interactions with other characters, least of all any women. she has a 'good' (and i say that lightly) relationship with rhaenyra for 2 episodes in hotd, and then they are adversaries for the rest of the show. the only other women we see her interact with are helaena and her lady in waiting talya ( who regularly spied on her for mysaria) and minus talya, those are the same female relationships she has in f&b. she doesn't really have a good track record with anyone.

in the book she terrorized rhaenyra from aegon's birth up until rhaenyra's death. rather than teaching her son to rule and raising him to be an upstanding prince of the realm she instead spent her time calling rhaenyra, a literal child, a slut, she accepted criston into her service as her own personal protector in spite of his predatory behavior towards rhaenyra (which she acknowledges), and continuously tries to have rhaenyra and her sons disinherited and killed due to her own spreading of the bastard rumors. not to mention that she was eighteen when she married viserys to rhaenyra's nine. there's really nothing romantic about it. in the show almost everything is still the same except for her being the one to arrange helaena's marriage to her known degenerate and rapist son (in f&b viserys is the one who had them marry) and most likely told her the same rhetoric of rhaenyra killing them to secure her claim that she told her sons from when they were babies up until the coup. with rhaenyra she still antagonizes her because she (lemme check again, told alicent she didn't sleep with daemon and got otto fired because he was working against the crown to install his grandson as heir over her). don't even get me started on the villainization of rhaenyra in order to uphold alicent's constant victimization storyline. alicent is the one who abused rhaenyra, not the other way around, and the age changes in the show (which are so stupid omg) only serve to make alicent more sympathetic and rhaenyra an apparent privileged brat who doesn't understand what it's like to suffer because of the men in her life and therefore deserves her fate (i can literally see the entire galaxy with how far back my eyes are rolled rn.)

if the show wanted to include or focus on two women who were torn apart by the patriarchy and the men around them, helaena's blank character was right there for the taking (and would've been even juicier with the sister vs sister, queen consort vs queen regnant debacle.) she has no personality in the book or any relevance besides losing her children in violent ways and going mad, they definitely could have made her a more present character on screen in a manner that adds an actual emotional connection to her but alas, rhaenicent is top priority. furthering that, if the show wanted to include queer representation with their leading lady, laena had more hints in the text for that type of relationship than anything the show has given us for the rhaenyra/alicent dynamic, even with how hard they're trying to force it down our throats.

the entire relationship has made the story go completely off kilter because the show won't just let it be, and it's affected almost all of their other relationships. they're not going to convince me that rhaenyra cares about alicent more than her own children or even vice versa (though in an entirely different manner) and that reconciliation is possible in spite of aemond murdering luke. it makes both the characters and the writers look like delusional idiots. there's absolutely no reason for these types of glaring mistakes in a series where characterization and the relationships that revolve from them are the reason it's so popular amongst the masses. this lack of proper relationship building has caused hotd to feel a lot more shallow and lackluster than what you'd expect with how massive it's budget was when they created it, the amount of talented actors they casted, and the literal blueprint laid out of what not to do that got season eight is. someone should have taken accountability for these dumb decisions and realized how quickly they're streamlining straight towards what ruined game of thrones in the first place.

[snowblack-charcoalwhite]

When answering asks I mentioned several times that while I agree that Aegon's character arc is the best one this season (among the Greens and overall), I still don't like it. No one really asked but I decided to put it out there anyway - because he is my second favourite character of the book/show combo.

When I think about Aegon in season 2, this bit from the trailer comes to mind:

If we are to take Aegon more or less as a separate character (which is not so easy as no character can/should exist in a vacuum), his storyline has been quite decent (the effort to be a good ruler despite the lack of actual preparation, the obvious love and care towards Jaehaerys and heart-wrenching reaction to his murder, the failed attempt to prove himself at Rook's Rest - and now the signs pointing to him becoming a new man after what happened, more cunning and harsh). Besides, Tom has been given quite a few really good moments where he could show, truly and without being restrained, just how talented he is (it was the least HotD owed him after the treatment he got because of the shitty writing for the previous season). And even with that, I am still far from being convinced that the writers won't fumble it all in season 3 (just look what they did to Aemond this season after him getting IMO the most compelling and consistent beginning of the character arc in season 1).

But if we look at Aegon in connection with other characters? I am not merely disappointed, I am fucking furious, actually.

He's the character who suffered the most this season (feels like suffering takes up 90% of his screentime) - and this is understandable given what he's been going through. But how does the show present us this suffering? More precisely, who is presented as being responsible for it?

The first big blow dealt to Aegon was the murder of Jaehaerys. And which characters are actually shown to be the cause of Aegon's anguish?

Not Rhaenyra - she was as clueless as poor murdered boy himself. Not Mysaria - her opressed self "just provided the names" to Daemon. Daemon is the closest to it, but even here we were treated to this "ambiguity" bullshit about him supposedly not giving clear instructions to Blood and Cheese - and apparently he deeply regrets his actions. Boo-hoo, poor baby (I am not even a Daemon hater, actually, but the "he is just a tormented soul" thing he has going on this season has gone too far). The audience can't even properly hate the murderers themselves because of the shallow and cartoonish way the whole event was handled on screen.

But we get to see how Otto turns the horrible murder of an innocent child into a propo show - and Alicent sides with him (both are shown to disregard Aegon's feelings on the matter). Criston is presented as the one who neglected his duties and in doing so facilitated the heir's murder (and later he tries to shift the blame to Arryk which eventually gets the latter killed while fighting his own twin brother). Aemond doesn't gaf about his nephew's death (or the way it affected anyone in his family, specifically Aegon) for which he is partially to blame. And later Aegon gets a parting gift from Otto in the form of "you are a useless piece of junk - and a naive one for even daring to believe otherwise" - and Alicent's inability to console him when he needs it most.

Things only get worse from here. The Blacks are doing their thing on Dragostone (in Daemon's case - at Harrenhal) while Aegon keeps being abused, neglected and terrorized by those closest to him. His council members (including his mother and brother) do not respect him, Alicent flat out tells him he is useless in the most hurtful way possible (comparing him to Viserys who, as Aegon learned, didn't deem him worthy either after all). Oh, and by the way Viserys' neglect towards his children - Aegon in particular, in this case - is now completely taken out of the equation. Instead Viserys is presented as almost a godlike figure, someone to be worshipped and as infallible as the Pope.

And then, as the cherry on top of the cake, Aegon and his beloved dragon get horribly injured, almost killed by Aemond who Aegon trusted despite everything (Rhaenys' part in Aegon being hurt is minimal). And even after that Aemond proceeds to torment his bedridden brother, physically and mentally (I am aware there are supposed layers to it but I really doubt a lot of viewers gave that scene a second thought), so the former could remain in power; Alicent experiences remorse in all the wrong moments (and then proceeds to tell Gwayne how she is disappointed in both of the sons she actually knows and seems to redirect her hopes towards the one she doesn't). The only person who actually seems to care about Aegon is, surprise, Larys Strong, a reigning Kinslayer Supreme who actually murdered his father and elder brother while playing the game of thrones (and there is a BIG question whether Larys would give a single fuck about Aegon and his condition if he had been granted promotion by Aemond). While it's nice that the indisposed king has at least someone on his side, it's really fucked up that out of everyone else around him it had to be precisely Larys, whose loyalty is very much conditional.

To sum it all up, the writers gave Aegon an extreme amount of suffering (in accordance with his story in F&B and even more), clearly aiming to make the audience pity him as much as possible - and in a dirty and lazy writing move weaponized this pity against other TG characters (it's not clear for now whether it worked to the degree they expected for GA - but for the fandom it certainly did). Meanwhile TB is whitewashed once again. Now it's understandable where all this "they all hate each other" promo jokes (that turned out not to be jokes after all) made by TB actors came from.

In conclusion, I despise the way Aegon's suffering is being used in the narrative, and it takes a really big chunk out of the positive feelings I have about Aegon's arc in general. The F&B Greens, while being flawed individuals and not the most well-functioning family, were loyal to and cared for each other. HotD destroyed the majority of inter-Green relationships, and I am really, REALLY not here for it.

[nessest]

''Women good, man bad'', and ''Misandrist writing'' are some of the most annoying takes that have come out in the HotD discourse.

It's funny when you consider that most male characters are presented as BETTER than their book counterparts;

Viserys Targaryen, at 18 years old, started to consummate his marriage to his cousin, Aemma Arryn and she was just 13 years old, getting pregnant so young is what caused her poor health later on; Aemma died at just 23 years old, after spending 10 years getting pregnant and having dead babies and miscarriages; She gave birth to Rhaenyra at 15, HOTD's Alicent Hightower married Viserys at 15; Viserys of course, took no note of what early pregnancies did to his 1st wife, so he married his 13-year-old daughter to her brother; (in HOTD, it was Alicent who arranged the match); In Fire and Blood Viserys gave Rhaenyra no choice of husband, even threatened to disinherit her, in HOTD? a whole tour was done for her and she is the one who messed it up; So, yes Viserys is more sympathetic in HOTD than in Fire and Blood, especially when you take his sickness and regret of what he did to Aemma.

Daemon Targaryen, yes he might not have killed his wife in Fire and Blood, but in HOTD the death of Rhea Royce was downplayed and later turned into a joke. Daemon was in Rhaenyra's life since she was a young girl, especially vulnerable with her father's new marriage (she was 9-10) when he groomed her, the scandal between Viserys and Daemon did not happen when Rhaenyra was 18-19 like in HOTD, but when she was just 14 years old. In Fire and Blood, Daemon most likely asked for one of Aegon's sons, but in HOTD? He asked for Aemond, but those 2 goons.. took it upon themselves.

Criston Cole, the poor dornish knight, who meets Rhaenyra when she is 14, is pressured to sleep with her and then feels so much guilt, of course, Rhaenyra denies him, Alicent saves him from suicide and then he is by her side.... but did it happen like this in Fire and Blood? NO. Criston became Rhaenyra's sword shield when she was 8-9 years old and allegedly, before she got married she wanted to give him her virginity, but he spurned her (Mushroom), but the more reliable source here is Eustace, who claims that it was Cole, who went to Rhaenyra and urged her to run away with him and when she denied him? He turned on her.

Aegon Targaryen who in Fire and Blood was groping every maid, who fathered a bastard on his mother's maid and ''won'' a young girl's maidenhead at the Streets of SIlk is not a rapist? /In Fire and Blood, the ''rumour'' about the bastards comes from Mushroom, but in the novel ''The Rogue Prince'' it is presented as a fact); The Aegon we see in HOTD is much, much more sympathetic that the one we see in Fire and Blood.

Aemond Targaryen, who was a bullying victim in HOTD, who was attacked 4 vs 1 (by children in his age range), who regretted killing Luke.... who was also apparently a SA victim, now let's compare it F&B Aemond who pushed a 3-year-old Joff in dragon droppings, who beat Jace, Luke and Joffrey, who started calling them bastards and had Jace attack him WITH NO KNIFE (at only 6 years old)... and Aemond being 10 was beating him bloody, well until his brother didn't take out a knife and slash Aemond in the face; Who killed Luke intentionally and who enjoyed a feast to killing their younger nephew, but of course, it's only the women who are ''sanitized'' and men are presented as ''bad''.

Intresting.

[ladymorghul]

Hey, Can we please talk about how ridiculous the scene where Rhaenyra “ has “ to walk all the way through the red keep, in order to show her newborn child to Alicent ( and more specifically the way they framed it ) was? It is obvious that Alicent wasn’t expecting Rhaenyra to come herself, I mean you could see the surprise in her face, all she is wanted was for the child to be introduced to the king and queen( which is an absolutely normal thing to ask ). I feel like the way they presented the scene was such an unnecessary and ridiculous way to make a villain out of Alicent, I mean, nobody forced Rhaenyra to walk all those steps alone, absolutely no one. I mean… being stupid doesn’t give her the moral high ground. Did she seriously think Alicent would harm her son? In front of the king ? 

i have 3 things to say about that scene

1) it might have not been alicent's most generous moment, but the way they introduced older alicent with this scene was not it, especially with how nonlinear older alicent is written later. i dislike that this was her first moment, but especially because they write her one way one moment and when she should be the way they initially write her, they write 10 times softer.

2) this scene in correlation to the writers giving alicent no birth scenes (or any scene with her children for the purpose of humanizing her - not that it would work because the fandom's misogyny would still place her as more hated than daemon -) even though she was literally the teenager bearing child after child with no support and they gave rhaenyra every scene of this kind that we know humanizes a character is just.... not it. i know the writers are not about the greens, but still..... can you be less obvious? they wanted big, bad, cruel alicent who is punishing sweet, innocent, martyr rhaenyra and everyone ate it right up and now we have people saying alicent tortured rhaenyra and ran her off from her home.

3) the way the people acted as if rhaenyra felt obligated to go because she was scared and alicent had power over her and rhaenyra didn't want to leave her baby alone with her. first of all, viserys was alive and walking around. if rhaenyra said "no, i'll come later" absolutely nothing will happen. and in no scenario would something happen to the baby. yes, rhaenyra would likely have anxiety letting go of it but at least in part her choice to walk in that very moment despite how she physically felt, or even send laenor in her place, was to make a point. i would sympathize with her if she also didn't make the choice to dance this dance. secondly, we see viserys allow rhaenyra to do much worse than just say "i'll come a bit later when i feel better", *nothing* would happen to her.

[butterflyintochains]

Princess Daenaera and Silverwing

Daenaera is sixteen when she bonds with Silverwing on a secret trip to Dragonstone.

Initially, there were rumours that she'd choose Dreamfyre, but Daenaera knew that her little sister was more suited to that dragon, so chose Silverwing herself.

Despite the late bond, Daenaera and Silverwing share a deep love and trust in each other, enjoying one of the closest second rider bonds in history. Only rivaled by Daemon's bond with Caraxes, and Baelon's with Vhagar.

They first take to the sky on the seventh anniversary of Queen Aemma's death.

Silverwing gets sad on the anniversaries of Alysanne's nameday and death day, so Daenaera always makes sure to spend those days completely with her.

Silverwing only lets one person who isn't Daenaera near her: Ser Willem Blackwood, her rider's husband. This later extends to their four children: Baelon, Lyonel, Aemma, and Jocelyn.

Daenaera tries her best to fly every other day.

It's with her second rider that Silverwing finally sees battle, in the Dance, and lives to tell the tale.

However, Daenaera was more than reluctant to fly into battle, not wanting to risk one of the loves of her life.

Silverwing sleeps outside Daena and Will's windows while her beloved rider is pregnant with each of her four children. And gets to meet all four of them as babies.

Daenaera comes to see her dragon as a second mother figure, and Silverwing sees Daena as a pseudo daughter. The two are very protective over each other.

Like Vhagar before her, Silverwing never sees the inside of the Dragonpit during her bond with Daenaera. The princess lost two dragons in there, and the place is too small, so Silverwing is an outside dragon.

Daenaera's first pregnancy, and all three that follow it, are first detected by Silverwing.

Rhaenyra does get jealous that her six year younger sister rides a dragon four times larger than Syrax, but she understands the bond between her sister and the dragon.

Daemon and Rhaenys, however, were deeply impressed by their niece's quick bond with their grandmother's dragon. So were Viserys and Alicent.

Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron always asked for rides with her until they got their own dragons. Then, Daenaera started giving Aegon, Helaena, and Daeron riding lessons. Something no one ever gave her.

Daenaera does regret not being able to be present to give Aemond riding lessons when he bonded with Vhagar, but does leave her siblings a book of advice on how to ride their dragons in her move to Dragonstone after her wedding.

As Silverwing's mate, Vermithor does also grow to care for Daenaera. And doesn't take orders from anyone else until Alyn bonds with him.

Daenaera also helps give flying lessons to her nephews and nieces. Baela in particular loving flying with her aunt. Rhaena comes to as well once Morning is large enough.

Daenaera is the first, and only, of her two riders to give Silverwing the infamous 'dracarys' order.

During the early stages of the Dance, there is a scary day where some commoner claiming to be the princess' uncle, Ulf White, tried to claim Silverwing. The princess was left enraged, and the dragon wasn't much happier herself.

It is often noted by the court that Daenaera didn't completely come into herself until she forged her bond with Silverwing. The princess quite agrees with this assessment.

The Blackwoods are initially quite intimidated by their daughter/sister-in-law's massive dragon, but are quickly won over by Silverwing.

At some point in their bond, Daenaera becomes able to command Silverwing without words.

Silverwing picks up the epithets: The Silver Queen, The Silent Assassin, and The Silver Comet, during the Dance. as well as her Valyrian name 'Geliotikun.' At the war's beginning, she is labelled 'The Asset' by the Green Council, due to being the largest ridden dragon of the Black Faction at the time.

However, to her princess, she is simply 'My dearest one'.

Both princess and dragon survive the war, a bit worse for wear, but united more than ever. Silverwing living for another twenty odd years, and Daenaera living into her seventies. The last holdovers from the Targaryen golden age.

After the war, Silverwing refuses to fly Daenaera too far west, mirroring her refusal to fly Alysanne too far north. This continues for a number of years until Silverwing flies the princess to Highgarden to assist in one of Rhaena's childbirths.

[queenvhagar]

So I do think one thing that’s strange(besides everything) about the whole “presenting Joffrey right after birth” is that from a historical standpoint that’s kinda normal? Public births to prevent baby switching were common in the Middle Ages and presenting the infant as well. While women were typically in confinement leading up to and directly after the birth, babies were presented. It’s really only there to make Alicent look bad(we haven’t seen any of her births she very likely could’ve had the same thing happen, her kids being presented to Viserys/court immediately) and to prop up Rhaenyra “overcoming her physical limits”

Similar to "bedding ceremonies" where it could be proven that marriages were consummated, births were also semi-public or at least had witnesses who could confirm the birth and the nature of the child being born.

This does make me wonder about the bedding cermony for Rhaenyra and Laenor's wedding. In the show, the addition of a death in the middle of the wedding feast and then a private ceremony for the heir and her future consort can somewhat explain why this ceremony might not have taken place. However, in the show, Joffrey doesn't die at the wedding itself, which goes off without a hitch, so presumably there was a bedding ceremony that occurred. I wonder how that would have gone down.

It is reasonable that a newborn would be closely looked at following the birth, especially one that would conceivably be in line to inherit the throne, and especially considering the bastard status of the first two, it makes sense that Alicent would want to confirm that the third was also the same.

It is important to remember that Alicent's order was that the baby be brought to her by a servant following its birth. The instructions were not 1) the exact second it is born tear it from its mother and run it to me 2) I expect its mother to immediately bring it to me personally despite having just endured potentially days of labor and a birth 3) give the two zero time together after the birth I need it ASAP.

Another thing to consider is that Rhaenyra is the heir and the favorite daughter of the king. She knew she did not have to do anything that anyone wanted her to do if she didn't want to do it (and this is how she effectively lived her life). That did not change here. What did happen is this: Rhaenyra realized the attention on this third bastard, who she knew was a bastard like her first two, and she knew that the baby would likely be checked once it was born. She knew that Alicent would ask for this baby and she knew people would see the baby being delivered to Alicent. So she decided to distract from the issue by bringing the baby herself, despite it being basically physically impossible, in order to show her strength in overcoming her physical limitations and to let others see her suffer as she fulfills Alicent's request to see the baby herself. This was a choice by Rhaenyra to try to deflect from the bastard issue and throw it back onto Alicent.

But of course the intention with this scene was to introduce Alicent post-time skip as a borderline sadistic villain to Rhaenyra's suffering hero. The show also clearly failed to accurately represent the bastard issue and highlight just how massive as a deal that it truly was that these babies were illegitimate and what that meant for future succession.