#;; BECAUSE THE DRAGONS ARE ALL INTRINSICALLY TIED TO DANY BECAUSE THEY ARE A PART OF HER

[kaerinio]

no, because how can i possibly be normal when rhaegal's rage and fury and tendency to act and be wild arises from dany's desires for justice; vengeance is too simple a word for what she wants for her family and for her people and for her children; she wants trials and presiding power and to look into the eyes of perpetrators and hear their words (and she wants them to see the ire of the dragon in her eye . . . to fear what they have awoken, to question if such injustices were worth it). smth smth, rhaegal saw quentyn's attack on viserion as an injustice against both viserion and dany, so he enacted justice for them both by burning him alive. smth smth, rhaegal destroying a pyramid so thoroughly it becomes a ruin, then going to a new pyramid being an expression of this rage-filled justice for those who have been harmed by the sons of the harpy (a direct reflection of dany's desires). . . and for his mother, who was tricked by their leadership.

[horizon-verizon]

I couldn’t care less about Rhaenyra’s arc once she becomes a cruel tyrant, one who asks for the head of a teenage black girl while being disgustingly racist in her remarks while STILL being a pick me girl about Daemon. So she can fuck off too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm assuming by "care", you mean you cannot and will not feel sympathy for Rhaenyra, not that you think her arc is irrelevant.

Because the latter would just mean that you didn't understand that she is the protagonist and that The Dance is all about the misogyny against her after decades of Targ assimilation guiding Targ men to use, abuse, and denigrate the female relatives and losing the Targ dragons/half their might in lieu. That would be just choosing to ignore how the story is set up to contextualize Targ/Westerosi history, Targ women, and Dany's arc. And that would just be ignorant denial, self-contradictory as to why are you reading this series--including the "side" stories--at all?

BUT If the first, I understand and I have written about the (doylist) racism/(watsonian) blood purity Rhaenyra displayed towards Nettles. you can check it out if you want. You're not obligated to root for Rhaenyra with the (doylist) misogynoir she performed. And despite being a black woman myself, as I already said in THIS POST, even after she sought to kill Nettles using misogynoir reminiscent of the Black Jezebel, someone also has to rule Westeros (at the time & when there is political crises).

If someone like Daenerys had existed in Rhaenyra's time, of course, I'm going with her! Daenerys is precisely the apex of her house, the one who is not like any of them, doesn't have their royal entitlements but has all their best traits! She rules to help others, not to just have power, though having power is also important to her it is intrinsically tied to her sense of altruism and protecting those who can't help themselves. No discrimination, either.

But, since there wasn't and there's just no way I'm picking a green (maybe Helaena), Rhaenyra was there, and again, her rule would have at least pushed the realm more into a place a little less destructive towards women, and female leadership/agency. Because a precedent was set, as much as those are important to both fans and in-text characters/lords.

This doesn't mean I think Rhaenyra deserves to rule after Nettles!

*EDIT (5/31/24): Rhaenyra suffers from really bad sexist writing on GRRM's, not just the maesters', part and it undermines his own point.* And no, she doesn't need to be necessarily "moral" like Dany to be a deserving ruler.

The point of her story was to highlight how no matter how good or evil or morally ambiguous a person you are, if you are female, you are subject to losing a power men are just granted. Or usurped. And this is inherently wrong. Rhaenyra chose to go to war rather than give up. This is valuable. Visenya was not thinking "for the realm" or for the benefit of smallfolk or outside of her family, yet she as so many fans bc she was not passive or restricted by "madness". She has less sexist writing.*

[wolfsneedles]

i like how prophetic dreams and prophecies in itself different from visions are interpreted in different ways and in diff directions but also by different people for eg stannis and Mel, Rhaegar and dany or other targaryen kings. Jojen and bran, Cersei and Maggy etc...

Melisandre usually tumbles and makes mistakes she sees what she sees but not exactly she wants to see what should be accurate considering how her major azhor ahai is stannis, was a mistake and an error. However recently we know she sees snow in flames. jon. but im skeptical about him being prince that was promised or AA, when you have....daenerys right here. But she still commits mistakes idk maybe rh'ollor is lil unhinged and is messing with her, but no. i think she is prone to change and her prophecies change too. Mel doesn't stick up to one interpretation and pretty sure will leave stannis in long run if she believes who is AA to her.

But stannis, is stubborn and crude. As a skeptic and well part atheist, he took her words and religious ventures too seriously and has attached with the prophecy too vehemently as if he has to be AA at any cost not knowing prophecy can't matter in the end even, but its so funny to me he risked most of the stuff for red priestess who just came to her and is like, "ight u be the king cuz u have targaryen blood"

Jojen reeds dreams are like mostly about starks and wolves and how they will come back again and when bran and others ask him if what he sees can be changed, he says no. which means him seeing something can be finalized testament or something that will happen one way or other since starks coming back or wolves coming back, is like obvious thing since they have their might broken. Bran is currently well being trained by bloodraven so his views weren't yet in first books but evolved with time.

And my fav part is cersei's prophecy of valonqar and maggy. She is destined or was to marry king not prince and she would have 3 children while robert 16 bastards, and we never knew and it was strange to me how lannisters never acquired or were even mildly amused by idea of magic all the way but cersei going to a witch when she was in casterly rock with her companions was like a major twist for me since i never assumed her to be like that, however she knows her fate will end by valonqar and a young more beautiful queen (def dany) will replace her and take what she holds dear. However cersei's reaction to this prophecy when she herself asks witch to tell her fortune is volatile. She takes to anger and resists it from coming true. She even shapes her life and everything according to not letting the prophecy come true but it follows her to in a way that she does marry robert and has 3 children by incestuous relationship. At the very best however, she avoids it because she hates the truth of it. She steers away from it.

Rhaegar is a different matter to me. I like how he was born as melancholic and amidst grief during tragedy of summerhal and well overall, for me had tragic demise but he took the prophecy too serious differently than stannis even. He made sure to follow and correct it and apply it aptly on his marital life and social life. He even kind of got too carried away and dreamy with it that he didn't himself realise the situation changing with Robert's rebellion and everything happening. Rhaegar however we knew was kind of intellectual and sensual personality so maybe he took the targaryen grief of years of no dragons too seriously too. And in the end well...prophecy really didn't work for him and most of his actions failed him and those around.

Dany is so different in this regards tbh. She is part of two prophecies for me the 'prince that was promised' and AZHOR AHAI. and the last 'younger more beautiful queen'. I mean it's startling. Unlike her brother and even old ancestors of her blood, she intrinsically is tied to so many of these prophetic verses and proves on so many occasions especially after birth of dragons that she indeed can be Azhor Ahai or maybe - the best candidates for her. She doesn't really is obsessed with it or neither is she forcing someone to tell her fate like cersei and then meet the rejection with rudeness infact she kind of subverts expectations one has of glaring prophecy which everyone imagines to be a prince...or a man. But dany really isn't a man lol and neither a prince. Aemon did say too the translated prophecy can have error too and it was not really prince who is promised but could be well...princess if that's even the correct term. Her birth of dragons explained in numerous posts and metas is so phenomenal and makes her ever so wonderful and magical than her all ancestors who died in all tragic ways because they made the prophecies too tied to their lives and were utterly obsessed with it. They were reminiscing over grief of dragons but daenerys bought dragons that to, three back to world after stepping into drogo's pyre and performing a ritual she herself only realised in the end what she was doing and thanks to well MMD. She realized later but still did she realise how the stone eggs did exudate warmth and called to her. Im pretty sure all other targayens and their expectations and experiences were all in vain or went down drain. Dany on the other hand independently alone and on her own without help of anyone but only subtly joining clues and hints, sorted out and stitched the importance and relevance of it. The dragons and ritual. It was anyways a one time magical event too, no wonder her bringing dragons to world is written as " music of dragons" and night came alive with it in AGOT. (interesting that grrm says music of dragons and well rhaegar also liked playing sad music at ruins of summerhall, an emo prince yea)

And Daenerys doesn't really is tied herself to prophecy but most of the prophecies are tied to her. The Younger More Beautiful Queen one indicates at her..tbh and really no one including cersei and her knows about it. The AzAhai one also points to her because she was born in salts of dragonstone and smoke refers to birth of dragons and cracking of sound and smoke during pyre. The sword forged from flame can obv be pointed to drogon whose birth is like fire made flesh of a dragon hence that, and also when Xaro X Daxos says, of her dragons 'as flaming sword'.

but not getting into details of AA as dany because again, there are a lot of essays to it.

I just pointed out how stannis makes prophecy his and forced a little on people, how jojen trains bran too in a way and he still takes time to learn this green visions thing, cersei staggers away from it and damages people to not fulfill it or prevent it from engulfing her...but dany has no idea yet as far of any prophecy only a dream, and house of undying visions which she herself doesnt yet believe all so much we rlly dont know, yet she fulfills def 2/3 prophecies.

[horizon-verizon]

I love the Targaryens, but I never really got the impression that they thought women were equal to men. Don’t get me wrong, Andal culture is extremely sexist and patriarchal, but the Valyrians/Targs were not written like the culture of the Dornish/Rhoynar who do believe women are equal to men. I think the Targaryens definitely gave their women much more freedom and respect than Andals did to their women, but in the end, men were still considered the final authority.

So I think the Targaryens were more progressive than the Andals but less than the Rhoynar. Aegon I did conquer Westeros alongside his sisters, but in the end, it is only him that is referred to as the conqueror, while his sisters are not. I also got the impression that Aegon was the one who made all the final decisions even though Visenya was the eldest. So that’s my opinion what do you think?

I think both similarly and similarly: there's the fact that both Valyrian women and men flew out to Valyrian outposts to control them. It wasn't a total democracy nor did Valyria think women were perfectly equal to men, but they were leagues better and more "progressive" than Westeros.

I would not use the word “progressive” as an absolute or an accurate term for Valyria because:

Valyria developed into a slave-state and practiced enslaving people

the 40 dragonlord families seemed to have lead the entire society (there were nonddragonriding noble and common families), thus making this an oligarchy

It’s still through the man that a child inherits their surname, as we know Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya’s mother, Valaena, was a Velaryon. The Targ family also was inherited by its men, and Aegon I had to marry his oldest sister in Targ tradition and perform his duties. Then there is the fact that Valyrian men (mostly the sorcerers) can have multiples wives (polgyny); nothing is being said about women having multiple husbands (polyandry)

and so "progressive" puts a modern political value on an ancient people and that implies that the Valyrians and early Targs were studious and aware of patriarchal and other systematic oppressions--trying uproot society from the ground up for altruistic deeds (maybe the women after Aegon I conquerors Westeros, but that’s part of the group, not the whole). 

Again, I’d just say the Valyrians were better in this one regard--gender. The Targs and Valyrians are still more about power than altruism or perfect equality, like 90% of every other person/group in power in this system and world. Until Dany, of course. What makes the Targs-as-Westerosi-rulers different from their ancestors is that they did not colonize nor run an imperialist state; they merely conquered and ran a feudal state.

Let’s also then say that the Targs/Valyrian dragon-riders provide a means of social change in Westeros because their traditions, link to dragonriding, and the looser restrictions on women gives more of its members a bit of perspective and distance. Several notable members always have had this distance partially based on the fact that they are rulers trying to maintain their rule, but also because they are a people who are also foreign in culture and ID to the Westerosi nobles. Really, it’s the Faith of the Seven and the patriarchal traditons of the First Me and the Andals which create that ideological divide.

A Kinda-Digression about Dragons

Dragons are usually associated and stand in for untamed nature and chaos (disorder), or a huge force that ushers in a great change by clearing out what is before. A creature or a force that relentlessly consumes those things in its wake. a challenge that the hero must overcome or get through to obtain  In Greek myth, the serpent Ladon twisted himself the tree in the Hesperides’ Garden of the and guarded the tree’s golden apples. But they also can be the instruments of life giving and strength, as with Chinese dragons who are repsponsible for giving life-saving--or life-ruining--rains, or are made and intrinsically tied to the weather and the elements:

The Chinese dragon, lung, represents yang, the principle of heaven, activity, and maleness in the yinyang of Chinese cosmology. From ancient times it was the emblem of the imperial family, and until the founding of the republic (1911) the dragon adorned the Chinese flag.

They are raw, overwhelming power itself--while also embodying grace and balance-maintenance. 

The fact that women could ride dragons would automatically bump them up in a society that derives its power and identity through dragon-riding, even though only a section of Valyrians actually rode dragons--the 40 “dragonlord” families. this section fought for more influence and dominion over the Valyrian Freehold--the official name for Valyria and its territories. (The Velayrons and Celtigars historically were not part of the dragonriding families in Old Valyria). 

The Valyrians had no kings but instead called themselves the Freehold because all the citizenry who held land had a voice. Archons might be chosen to help lead, but they were elected by the lords freeholder from amongst their number, and only for a limited time. It was rare for Valyria to be swayed by one freeholding family alone although it was not entirely unknown either.

(A World of Ice and Fire,  pg. 13)

We don’t officially know if women could own land in their own right and autonomously and lead their families but it is likely -- dependent on circumstances where the male was unfit or dead and there would be less resistance or room to depose them.

Landholding was and remains a key defining part of being a citizen and having the right to vote when there was some form of voting allowed. Giving military commands and participating in government from the Romans of the Republic to the first leaders of the U.S. and their own ancestors who settled and colonized the Americas. 

Since women rode dragons, they definitely had a part in Valyrian expansion and imperialism (in the way that the Romans were imperialists, not 19th-20th century Europe and the U.S.), which also means that women had similar real, substantive political power as their male counterparts and particpated in govermental activities. The wars & using dragons to win them, after all, made Valyria as powerful as it was and dragons and the ability to ride them--symbolically, psychologically, culturally, etc. would have made the basis of their moral & aesthetic values. Again, they controlled Valyrian outposts as leaders as well.

So I think that Valyrian women could own land (and thus vote) in their own right, otherwise, how can they participate in expansion fully and maximize the use of their dragons?

Jaenara Belaerys rode her dragon Terrax, alone, to Sothoryos and didn’t come back until three yeas passed. We don’t officially know if she was weird even for the less-gender-restrictive Valyrians, or if women enjoyed having power and authority even while absent enough for her to expect that she’d still be welcome back into society. But I lean towards the latter.

Read this thread to start contemplating, if you want.