solarflare211

[solarflare211]

i get it! ethically, i think all of them are questionable under the lens, including steph, despite her just trying to do it by herself. i get how steph might be more palatable since she already started anyhow, but i do think you’re ignoring the precedent that any and all robins will just do it themselves. even tim would’ve done it himself if batman kept trying to stop him. tim didn’t even live with bruce for a majority of his time as robin, and left himself outside bruce’s influence

when ignoring how fucked up it is, its a wee bit funny to me that steph was the most ethically responsible robin and then the one that bruce treated the worst.

because dick was like 10 when he became robin, what the fuck were you doing making a ten yo go fight crime? plus he was under bruce's care which is like a massive thing of coercion and power dynamics.

jason had like NEGATIVE reason to be robin, he just needed to have a home and therapy probably

tim didnt want to be robin he just thought that batman needed one. and after getting adopted there is once again the issue of being under your virtual boss's care

and Oh God Damian. it was technically dick's fault this time but like kid did not have a choice in the way he was raised and shouldve gotten like happy fun learning to be a kid times not violent child soldier times

all of that compared to steph who

was already a vigilante when meeting bruce

voluntarily chose to be a vigilante

was not under bruce's care or guardianship and had a trusted adult

was almost a legal adult herself

had some fighting experience

like BRO in terms of ethics steph is The Best option and then she was treated like absolute Garbage. wild shit.

[solarflare211]

also dick was not forced to be robin either? did you read like….anything?? he practically held bruce at gunpoint over it. it was either bruce do it with him, or he’d do it without him. also good luck convincing damian to not be robin

when ignoring how fucked up it is, its a wee bit funny to me that steph was the most ethically responsible robin and then the one that bruce treated the worst.

because dick was like 10 when he became robin, what the fuck were you doing making a ten yo go fight crime? plus he was under bruce's care which is like a massive thing of coercion and power dynamics.

jason had like NEGATIVE reason to be robin, he just needed to have a home and therapy probably

tim didnt want to be robin he just thought that batman needed one. and after getting adopted there is once again the issue of being under your virtual boss's care

and Oh God Damian. it was technically dick's fault this time but like kid did not have a choice in the way he was raised and shouldve gotten like happy fun learning to be a kid times not violent child soldier times

all of that compared to steph who

was already a vigilante when meeting bruce

voluntarily chose to be a vigilante

was not under bruce's care or guardianship and had a trusted adult

was almost a legal adult herself

had some fighting experience

like BRO in terms of ethics steph is The Best option and then she was treated like absolute Garbage. wild shit.

[solarflare211]

slight nitpick, major nitpick actually. jason DID choose to be robin. he wanted to help his people, having lacked any strength before. he always wanted to help people and figures robin would grant him the power necessary. he didn’t need to sure, but he damn aure wanted to.

when ignoring how fucked up it is, its a wee bit funny to me that steph was the most ethically responsible robin and then the one that bruce treated the worst.

because dick was like 10 when he became robin, what the fuck were you doing making a ten yo go fight crime? plus he was under bruce's care which is like a massive thing of coercion and power dynamics.

jason had like NEGATIVE reason to be robin, he just needed to have a home and therapy probably

tim didnt want to be robin he just thought that batman needed one. and after getting adopted there is once again the issue of being under your virtual boss's care

and Oh God Damian. it was technically dick's fault this time but like kid did not have a choice in the way he was raised and shouldve gotten like happy fun learning to be a kid times not violent child soldier times

all of that compared to steph who

was already a vigilante when meeting bruce

voluntarily chose to be a vigilante

was not under bruce's care or guardianship and had a trusted adult

was almost a legal adult herself

had some fighting experience

like BRO in terms of ethics steph is The Best option and then she was treated like absolute Garbage. wild shit.

[solarflare211]

this is something i fee people and comics sometimes do, not this specific scenario in general, but something similar, i do find it more pervasive in fandom, where it’s an impossible situation where the solution is that someones needs to die but then magically cass solves it no problem!! and the person who came to the realization of killing the guy being the only way (usually jason) is made to looked like an idiot or an asshole because OBVIOUSLY there’s alllwayyys a way to solve things without killing duh and it’s generally used as a point in favor of no killing but i hate it bc it’s a manufactured argument. for the sake of analysis, let’s look at the rebloggers tags. an entire team of people (let’s assume thr batfam bc who else would cass work with) has looked at the situation and all agree the only way to stop the evil guy from blowing everybody up is to kill him. and then cass magically swoops in and disarms the bomb? cass? like i’m sorry, but if tim drake and barbara gordon, the resident technicians of the squad, declare that they can’t disarm this bomb or do anything to stop it without killing thr guy, i do not believe cass, for all her skills(of which tech isn’t one) is going to somehow accomplish that. this is essentially mary-sueism, it’s a rigged situation, a deliberate break of the parameters of the story just so cass can win, and it’s not even for cass, but for a moral argument and one she is definitely projecting on. i love cass, but i can’t stand this type of stuff, especially when it’s used to to make her and her argument seem right, like, no? it’s a deliberate “she wins bc we say she can do suck it” and is used to prop her up as of exquisite virtue, when what that reallly proved is that she is willing to get her whole team killed and fight tjem herself so stop tjem from having to kill one person so everybody else is saved, now everybody dies. rebloggers hypothetical literally has the team with a few seconds to act, and somehow cass. who was getting her team killed by punching tjem instead of contributing , that’s enough time for her to act and win!!! ofc she’s win!! she cass after all!! rebloggers is right, sometimes she’s just rhag annoying. i still love her, but i just can’t with her when writers or fandom use her to argue for no killing like that

Ultimately the resolution of Jason and Cass fights comes down to the fact that while he has his own ideals that don't mesh with the bats, Jason can be flexible. DC skipped the whole reconciliation with the family but while he's willing to kill it's generally a means to an end to him, not the whole entire point unless you're talking about Joker. Meanwhile for Cass the question of killing vs not killing is dead serious to her which means any time they're working together and things start going off track it's like:

Jason: Look if we kill this guy we send a message to his boss which makes it easier for us to negotiate with him from a position of power and I just think that-

Cass, snatching one of his guns and pointing it at her own head: Go on, pull the trigger. Kill him. Kill me. Go tell Batman that you let his daughter die to make a negotiation easier. He already let you die so no problem right? You think we should die? You think our life only worthwhile as part of a plan, just because we're killers? Are we doomed? Are we rotten to the core with no hope of redemption? Go on then, kill us and kill part of your soul alongside it. You clearly don't care for it so why are you even trying? Kill yourself along with us, come on Jason let's all just die right?

Jason, slowly backing away: I think you may be projecting a tiny bit so just. Calm down before I call the suicide hotline please.

Cass, slowly lowering the gun and knocking the random henchman unconscious: Yeah that's what I thought, fucking pussy.

Jason: Mm yeah you know what I hate you actually. Fuck this mission I'll just shoot you right now if you're going to be this annoying about it.

Jason, explaining things later to Dick: So I just kept shooting at her until I ran out of bullets and we both calmed down enough to call a truce. We tracked the guy down and didn't kill anyone but I did blow up the batplane just as a last minute screw you. Is she always this uh... intense?

Dick: Yeah, one time I broke up with Barbara and she threw me out a window. She's just like that.

[solarflare211]

[solarflare211]

as much as i want to like this,

the problem i have with tbis is that anyone who imagines tbis kind of scenario doesn’t truly understand what jason’s reaction to this incident would be. yes, part of the reason dick killed the joker was for jason and because joker taunted him about it, but the only reason dick was that committed to fighting joker was because he had tim, and was hurting him. as much as it was for jason, avenging him was an afterthought in dicks head, a secondary objective. dick wouldn’t have gone out of his way to kill joker if didn’t have tim in a parallel of the way he had jason. what jason’s takeaway from tbis would’ve been, is that tim was worth killing the joker for, and he wasn’t on his own. this would be fueled by the very scarce relationship he had with dick before dying. the fandom can try and “um actually” all they want, but the majority of dick and jason’s relationship was a mutual dislike, because jason looked up to dick despite his insecurities and felt the man was rejecting him, and dicks insecurity about jason as robin and his place in bruce’s life, relations thawed before jason died but they were never they close. the majority of dicks grief from jason death is from not being close to him, which also motivates him to be closer to tim and damian more. jason would never have believed dick did it for him primarily, even if it was true. in fact, he would’ve taken the murder, and bruce’s subsequent reversal of it and refusal to let dicks actions face their consequences as further proof that not only did dick not love him enough to do it, and preferred tim, but that bruce actively did not love him enough to let his murderer stay dead, and let dick face the consequences. it would be proof that bruce cared about dicks conscience more than avenging jason. now it would be unreliable narrator, because in the context of the situation, bruce knew at thr time jason was dead, and so the avenging of his death was secondary to dicks unraveling mental state as a result of the murder. even if he hadn’t saved joker, which he would do because it’s his moral code, jason wouldn’t have been alive to benefit from it anyways. bruce understands in some level that killing joker doesn’t bring him back, and to him, robin jason wouldn’t have wanted him getting his hands dirty like rhag in his name. while we know robin jason probably couldn’t cared less, given his very realistic and pragmatic outlook on killing, his indifference to the death of scumbags who couldn’t have been redeemed, or those who would always get away with it, it was how bruce coped with the guilt of not being able to kill the joker. but to jason, it’d be more evidence that he was never loved, that they much preferred the next kid, the pretender instead. it would be more reason to hate them, to never forgive. especially after the batarang incident in the UTRH, jason would think that batman choosing to save joker is not an isolated incident and that he’d rather save joker than love jason. it would be reason he should’ve detonated that damn bomb when had the chance, killed them, and started protecting the city in a way that actually works. it would be reason to admit they never loved him, and cut away from the dead weight of the family.

Duke: So you were mad because they didn't care enough to try to kill the Joker?

Jason: Essentially.

Across the room Tim subtly glances at Dick, who shakes his head minutely.

Cass, watching: ..?

Cass: Have any of the bats except Jason tried to kill the Joker?

Barbara: Not that I know of.

Cass: Can you check?

Barbara: Sure, give me a sec- What the hell? *Minutes of fierce typing* Both of them?

Cass, waiting patiently: What did you find?

Barbara, in shock: Dick killed the Joker.

Cass: He's not dead.

Barbara: The video shows B resusitating him. Which makes no sense because Bruce wanted to kill him a few months prior.

Cass: He must have not wanted murder on Dick's conscious.

Barbara: That.. makes sense.

Cass: Jason thinks they didn't care.

Barbara: Should we let him know?

Steph, Walking in, arms full of chips for girls night: Let who know what?

Cass: I'm going to call Jason privately.

Barbara: You do that.

Steph: ???

Jason: What do you need?

Cass: Yesterday you were talking to Duke about how no one tried to avenge you.

Jason: And?

Cass: Bruce was going to and Dick did avenge you.

Jason: What are you talking about? The Joker's still alive as far as I can tell.

Cass: Come to the clocktower, you might wanna see the cowl footage yourself.

Jason:

Jason: I'll be there in 10

[solarflare211]

read it fools, and weep.

i think about jason todd and frankenstein’s monster a lot. maybe he does too. maybe he knows they’re so painfully similar. maybe he finds a reflection in the way frankenstein was pieced together and born anew by its creator father, only to be betrayed, cast out, regarded in disgust by their creator, in spite of the fact they only sought to be human, to have and feel love, to be anything more than monster. for they are more than monster. perhaps their creator is more monster than they are. but it is not what the world sees. the world looks for a perfect creation that never was and never will be, they look for a creation that was perfect when no creation is perfect. they see only flaws, when those are perfectly human, and discard the creation as a failure, an aberration. they have no place among their creator and his kin. but perhaps that is for the better. their creator did love them once upon a time, or maybe a concept of them, but no longer. that love was cruelly removed the moment the creation demanded the creator give it love, or failing that. someone that would love them. love them despite their faults. that is all the creation wants. just someone who will love them.

honestly i haven’t read frankenstein recently enough to know if my parallels are fully accurate but the concepts and narrative potential is so scrumptious

[solarflare211]

but also consider the fact that you die two years later and you come back and there’s a NEW 15 year old and a NEW 11 year old and somehow now your older brother is bestest of bros with them despite having no indication he ever wanted to talk to you at all back then so you kind assume it was something with you in particular and he just didn’t like you

jason is the epitome of younger sibling core bc wdym my older brother whom i have a 6ish year age gap doesn’t want to be my best friend?? doesn’t want to hang out with me, a 13 year old?? also the entire jason tim thing where he attacked tim in titans tower is 100% a younger sibling reaction to no longer being the youngest

[solarflare211]

he doesn’t die. he’s tortured for a year, and manages to get out just after arkham asylum? i think. then he’s journeying around the world, learning from death stroke, assembling thr militia, and stalking batman and robin during arkham city

I think I’m going to lose my mind, I’m arguing with this guy on tik tok that said Jason Todd dies in Arkham knight and was brought back with the Lazarus pit and he won’t accept that he’s wrong since Jason never died, Batman just THINKS he did and he survived the shot from joker and it’s driving me insane I might need to be put in one of them cells in panessa studios to contain me 😫

I’m 99.9% that I’m right and he doesn’t die in the Arkhamverse but if I’m wrong idk what I’m going to do with myself like it’s such a pathetic argument 😭

[solarflare211]

the one that everyone unequivocally fails is when duke puts one of them as jason todd becomes batman. everyone thinks it’s fake. it’s not. earth 51 motherfucker. jason todd is a cool ass batman and also dating a female atom and running a justice league with donna troy wonder woman and green lantern kyle rayner among others

Batkids play a game called "Never have you ever" where Duke gazes into their timelines in the multiverse and tells them two made-up things and one that happened in an else-word and they have to guess which is real

[solarflare211]

holy shit you guys i’m in a tiktok brain rot post i’ve made it

[solarflare211]

yes he’s cutie patootie but also that “you can take the boy out of juvenile hall” comment was so unwarranted and downright classist i don’t think jason’s even been to juice

We don't talk enough about Bruce having kid Jason tied up in the cave

[solarflare211]

i think about jason todd and frankenstein’s monster a lot. maybe he does too. maybe he knows they’re so painfully similar. maybe he finds a reflection in the way frankenstein was pieced together and born anew by its creator father, only to be betrayed, cast out, regarded in disgust by their creator, in spite of the fact they only sought to be human, to have and feel love, to be anything more than monster. for they are more than monster. perhaps their creator is more monster than they are. but it is not what the world sees. the world looks for a perfect creation that never was and never will be, they look for a creation that was perfect when no creation is perfect. they see only flaws, when those are perfectly human, and discard the creation as a failure, an aberration. they have no place among their creator and his kin. but perhaps that is for the better. their creator did love them once upon a time, or maybe a concept of them, but no longer. that love was cruelly removed the moment the creation demanded the creator give it love, or failing that. someone that would love them. love them despite their faults. that is all the creation wants. just someone who will love them.

honestly i haven’t read frankenstein recently enough to know if my parallels are fully accurate but the concepts and narrative potential is so scrumptious

[solarflare211]

oh, thanks! ahem. fuck you nightwing: year one. i have not read you but i don’t know why you’d do jason like that.

does that work

We don't talk enough about Bruce having kid Jason tied up in the cave

[solarflare211]

i’m going to assume this is all star batman and robin or whichever robin run with jason was the prequel to the dark knight returns.

fuck you frank miller for one of the most damaging and shit ass batman AND robin stories including the first part of tdkr. the other parts were okay, if only for the plot. honestly carrie kelley carried those anyhow

We don't talk enough about Bruce having kid Jason tied up in the cave

[solarflare211]

i’m always appreciative of the takes where batman both hates murder and knows that if he ever started, it’d be too easy to keep going and too hard to stop. too hard to box away that deep dark part of himself that he can’t let loose because he wouldn’t be able to put it back. i’m reminded of that quote from the utrh animated movie where he tells jason he doesn’t kill because it would be so easy. but that’s not who batman or bruce is. it can’t be

just saw a post saying "batman doesnt kill because he knows he'd love it" like please tell me ur joking

[solarflare211]

what about reverse injustice au where robin jason’s death makes him snap, and then later jason wakes up to this new world

Reverse!injustice Bruce and Clark have been giving me brainworms all week and then I saw your art of it on my dash so now I'm making it your ask box's problem, hope thats okay.

One of the concepts that makes me insane is the idea that for Clark, his snapping point is his family being murdered, but for Bruce, his snapping point (as he keeps telling everyone) would be committing murder. So I keep imagining an utrh au where Bruce actually does kill the joker when jason begs him to, and that's where it all goes wrong. Just. Bruce having a moment of weakness at exactly the wrong time and killing the joker for what he did to jason and then its just. It's over for him. Next thing you know, the Riddler's dead. Then Bane. Then Lex Luthor for being in the wrong place at the wrong time during a superbat team-up. The batfamily are freaking out. Superman and the Justice League are convinced there's mind control going on. By the time they all realise what's happened, it's too late. Congrats Jason, you got exactly what you wanted all along. Now live with the consequences. (Disclaimer: I do love him and I totally get that he's traumatised and all that but that doesn't make him objectively correct)

The transition from the Batman the world knows to a man who can and will take the world by the throat and squeeze to get the peace he so desperately wants for the world might start slower, more subtly, but once the batfam, superman or the Justice League realise what's happened, that Bruce was right all along and he could never stop at just the joker, once they try to intervene, it's too late. Bruce has been preparing for years to take down his allies should they ever turn dark, they wouldn't stand a chance if bruce himself decided to start a war.

Clark, with his self-sacrificing streak, his unbreakable belief that Bruce is in there somewhere? It's only a matter of time before he's captured or turns himself in to save the Rebellion or whatever innocent civilians he can. And Bruce has never been one to let an opportunity go to waste. He'll be determined to make Clark "see reason". All it would take is the right application of pressure, and enough time.

YOU!!! YOU FUCKING GET IT