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pigeons-paintbrush · 19 days ago

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Though since Murder never attempts to join Dream because that ask will never be answered, does Murder contemplates with killing himself after Nightmare captures him? Like from what I've seen, you keep Murder consistent with his canon counter compared to something like Nightmare, and since I know you don't like to talk about him teaming with Dream, I do have to ask: Do some Murder Sanses under Nightmare kill themselves before Nightmare has enough time to break them mentally or recapture them? Did any of them try to enrage Nightmare to make them kill him, knowing their death will irk Nightmare because he lost control, and Nightmare loves control? Also, shouldn't Murder be a good strategist/tactician/scientist even better than Killer or Horror? Like he is only using brute force and cheating to win is quite hollow to his character. Think about it. Both Killer and Murder fought the same enemy until they cracked mentally, but Murder at least tried different approaches than Killer before resorting to EXP, since by Canon Dusttale's lore, he has tried every alternative than the souls before Killing, so you can argue he spent even more time in the loops, so more time to evolve. So he would have developed his mind even more with how to read the human and what to try to stop them, compared to Killer who was just stuck in the hall getting killed repeatedly once Chara decided being subtle wasn't enough. Now, sure, it was arguable that while Murder has more time to analyse the human, Killer had more time to analyse the monsters as he would have cracked earlier than Murder. So while Murder was cooking plans to stop the human, Killer was already Chara's partner by then. But eventually, he could be catching up with Killer in the department how well he can read monsters so he can make his killing spree more efficient. And let us not forget that Murder was under a time pressure due to racing the human for lv, while Killer was taking him time with them and enjoying it, so Murder would accumulate knowledge faster. Murder is a speed runner trying to find the fastest and most optimal way, while Killer is taking his time. So, I still think, experience and skills wise, a barely recruited Murder has more experience than a barely recruited Killer. Nonetheless, it is not ignorable that Killer's Soul and state gives him quite the advantage over Murder, like a gigantic one with phase 4 and phase 3, and considering how fast Murder dies, it is understandable how Killer can act like a smartass 24/7 with Murder. Like Murder acts like a dumbass sometimes in the comics, which seems out of character, like the one with him being unable to see Nightmare's eye near the gate, though it could have been a fresh Murder and an experienced Killer. But I still think he should be more capable at least in a sense. But at a barely recruited stage, I still think Murder has it better than Killer. Plus Murder seems like the type to be hyper focused and single tasking, while Killer seems better at multi tasking. However, I do agree with your take about him liking brute forcing due to the LV, as it was stated that he is a mad tactician and often acts contradictory. Though, he is stated to be less tired than Classic, and I do not think the guy would burn through his stamina so fast without reason. Anyway, it might be our bias clashing, who knows. You like Killer more, I like Murder. So as a last question, what does Nightmare do with Murders whose fire has been extinguish? Kill them, throw them back to Dusttale, force Horror and Killer to kill him? Also, from what I've seen through both raha and ask-dusttale, shouldn't Murder still mostly resemble Classic with long range preferences, while Killer in phase 2,3,4 be more like Chara and prefer close range? Since in Swap vs Killer he did fought in close range a lot.

Woah there Anon, chill, you’re definitely making a lot of assumptions here

“because that ask will never be answered” “since I know you don't like to talk about him teaming with Dream”

I never said I don’t like to talk about the possibility of Dream and Murder joining forces, in fact, I have your asks half answered in my drafts, you aren’t the only one I have asks to answer for, nor am I a machine that can bump out answers, don’t rush me

-does Murder contemplates with killing himself after Nightmare captures him?

-Do some Murder Sanses under Nightmare kill themselves before Nightmare has enough time to break them mentally or recapture them?

I answered this before, yes he does, and in fact multiple Murders have attempted it and succeeded, especially at the beginning when Nightmare first recruited Murder

He recruits a Murder -> Murder kills himself after feeling absolutely hopeless to get back to his AU -> Nightmare learns how to deal with Murder in his failed attempt -> Nightmare applies what he learned with the previous Murder with the new Murder which contributes to the new Murder’s life longevity -> rinse and repeat

-Did any of them try to enrage Nightmare to make them kill him, knowing their death will irk Nightmare because he lost control, and Nightmare loves control?

Yes, some did, Murder finds joy in enraging Nightmare, it gives he a semblance of control that he doesn’t have, that was stripped from him

This in fact is what happens with the last Murder Nightmare killed

“Also, shouldn't Murder be a good strategist/tactician/scientist even better than Killer or Horror? Like he is only using brute force and cheating to win is quite hollow to his character.”

Murder using brute force is ONE of the things he does, and I specifically mentioned he fights one on one with weaker enemies, I honestly don’t really get how you completely missed the entire sentence that said “and instead, would rely on evasion, strategy tactics or cheating to win”, idk how to tell you this, but to evade, cheat or use strategy tactics requires intelligence

Murder is far from stupid or unintelligent, he’s literally Sans, he’s a scientist, to put it bluntly, none of the MTT are stupid, Murder isn’t less intelligent than Killer or Horror, Horror isn’t less intelligent than Murder or Killer, and Killer isn’t less intelligent than Horror and Murder, all of them are intelligent and smart, they just have their own ways to show that intelligence of theirs, it’s simply a difference in where their strong points are

Murder is canonically stated to use betrayal, a tactic of killing Asgore and Undyne without really fighting them because he won’t win if he brute forced his way through a fight, that’s what I mean when I say he cheats, it’s fine if you don’t like the canonical betrayal tactics he uses (aka cheating), but to me personally, I love his betrayal tactics, seems in character to me

Brute force is only used with weaker enemies, they’re the ones that Murder faces one on one without much plan or thought, no need to waste his energy and time coming up with plans when he could kill someone with one shot no?

“So, I still think, experience and skills wise, a barely recruited Murder has more experience than a barely recruited Killer.”

I completely agree with this and the arguments you made before, but here’s the catch, you said it yourself, “a barely recruited Murder has more experience than a barely recruited Killer”, Killer, in my multiverse at least, isn’t just barely recruited, he’s usually there before Murder and has gained experience fighting a variety of opponents before Murder even sets foot into the castle

And you can’t deny that, despite Murder’s ways of approaching situations and its variety, Murder still fought the exact same monsters over and over, he had various approaches, but not various experiences

His AU’s Asgore won’t act like an Underfell Asgore variant, so even though he tried different approaches with Asgore in his AU, Murder would have no knowledge of how to deal with an Underfell Asgore cause he never met him before

Murder has no experience on how to deal with different AUs, something that Killer has experience with

It doesn’t mean Murder is weak or stupid, it just means that, exactly like Horror and Killer, Murder would need time to adjust and learn

Neither Killer or Horror are some sort of all mighty beings who can read the future or are just good at what they do for no reason, nor is Murder either

Each of the MTT had to sit and learn and navigate through their new environment and new experiences, with no exceptions, Killer had to learn and adjust, Murder had to learn and adjust, and Horror had to learn and adjust

The only difference between the three is the rate at which they learn, how they learn, and how they apply what they learned

And idk if you noticed, but the fact Murder uses different approaches is one of my favorite things about him, hence why I made an entire comic in which he talks to Nightmare and asks him to go home instead of running away like he usually does, he’s trying a different approach to his miserable situation

“Murder acts like a dumbass sometimes in the comics, which seems out of character, like the one with him being unable to see Nightmare's eye near the gate, though it could have been a fresh Murder and an experienced Killer. But I still think he should be more capable at least in a sense.”

Murder not noticing the eye is for 3 reasons:

-one, Murder was recently recruited, he hasn’t yet accustomed to Nightmare’s games, he isn’t aware of how Nightmare tortures them mentally, and he hasn’t been in the castle for long enough to memorize each corner of it

-Two, Murder is in a castle, a castle’s ceiling is far above, Murder would literally need to break his neck looking up to notice the eye

-Three, something that I haven’t even mentioned about the eye, but was planning on sharing concepts of it, is that Nightmare isn’t stupid enough to make it extremely clear he’s watching them, the eye can easily be mistaken for a chandelier? (I think that’s its name) if looked at from the side, like say, Murder is in the second floor, and he’s directly looking at where the eye is supposed to be, he won’t see an eyeball, he’ll see what resembles a chandelier, the “eye” is of different layers, you won’t know that it’s an eye until you’re directly under it, it’s a use of illusion of something to look normal, until you’re in the right place to notice it’s abnormality, and Murder has no reason to believe that a chandelier is an eye that’s looking at him

You simply made the assumption that Murder is just stupid, and didn’t take into consideration what factors contributing to Murder not noticing an eye looking at him, here’s an interesting question for you, how do you think Killer knew of the eye? It’s not because he’s observant and just saw it I’ll tell you that, and it’s not because Killer’s smart

Killer was there before Murder for a few years, he had his own unique unpleasant experiences with Nightmare before Murder even stepped foot in the castle, one of said unpleasant experiences of which concerned the eye

The only thing Murder even remotely noticed, is a dreadful feeling of being watched

Killer stating “your lack of observation skills is gonna be the end of you” in the comic is supposed to represent Killer’s perception of Murder, not my own perception of him, (Killer is a smartass with Murder, and Killer especially has a habit of seeing everyone as less than him by default) there’s a fine line between how characters within a media perceive other characters, and the person making said media perceive them, I personally don’t believe Murder lacks observation skills, and have shown before that he notices and reads through Killer’s mask of idiocy like Killer’s an open book, which, when it comes to Killer, who’s secretive and always putting a certain show, requires observation skills

Me favoring Killer as a character doesn’t mean I see Murder as weaker or less intelligent than Killer, or that I favor Killer writing wise, cause surprise, I still love Murder a lot, and I have fun writing him, otherwise, I wouldn’t have bothered including him at all

I just simply refuse to write characters out to be naturally gifted even if they truly are, I love to show characters’ progress and learning curve, I love Murder enough to want to give him a satisfying narrative of how he goes from not knowing how to navigate his new environment, to understanding how to navigate through it as smoothly as possible, I prefer that over simply reducing his character to “and he’s just smart and skilled and he just knows”

This goes for all MTT too, if you notice how I write Horror here, to how I write him here, it’s completely different, at one point Horror might seem like a dumbass too (he’s not), but as time goes on and he learns and adjusts, so do his behaviors and actions change, you’re seeing Horror at two different points of time, one when he was freshly recruited, and one after his recruitment for a while

I want Murder to learn, to adapt, to change, I want to see him struggling and I want to see him succeed and fail, I want to see him be beat down only to get up again and try everything over and over

To put it bluntly, I want his undying persistence with the Human to be the same with Nightmare

I love Murder enough to show his emotions about his entrapment, to show his attempts, to show his defiance

I love Murder enough to even sneak in details that people didn’t even think twice about

“But at a barely recruited stage, I still think Murder has it better than Killer. Plus Murder seems like the type to be hyper focused and single tasking, while Killer seems better at multi tasking.”

Again, I fully agree with this, I do think that, if we’re talking at a barely recruited stage, Murder would be better than Killer, which again, in my Multiverse, Killer is usually there before Murder, not all the time, but most comics are, hence why it always seems that Killer is better equipped to deal with the situations around him

Does Killer seems like he’s always the better one out of MTT? Good, I’d be happy if someone told me that

Not cause I believe Killer is always better at everything or that he’s actually better than Murder or Horror, but because I’m actively trying to show how Killer is conditioned to push himself over the edge all the time, that he’s a machine meant to please its master with unrealistic expectations over him, and that means being as efficient and as effective as possible (which is not a good thing btw)

Something that’s the complete opposite of Murder, who actively tries to defy and sabotage Nightmare’s plans, always fighting Nightmare off, Murder holds onto his free will, something that Killer gave up, it’s meant to show that Murder values his individuality and personhood, and that he hates outside influences/ interventions

“I do not think the guy would burn through his stamina so fast without reason.”

Neither do I think that, I believe Murder is smart enough to keep his stamina in check and finds ways to keep it as high as possible

I’d actually say Killer is the one who burns through his stamina as opposed to Murder

Murder has less stamina than Killer, but he’s better at keeping it up for longer periods as opposed to Killer who doesn’t stop to think about his body’s limits

“what does Nightmare do with Murders whose fire has been extinguish? Kill them, throw them back to Dusttale, force Horror and Killer to kill him?”

He just kills them off

“shouldn't Murder still mostly resemble Classic with long range preferences, while Killer in phase 2,3,4 be more like Chara and prefer close range?”

Yes, this is actually the case with Killer and Murder in my multiverse, Murder prefers long range fights, however, he does go for close range if needed, but mostly, he’s more of a long range guy

Killer is completely close range, not that he doesn’t rely on long range at all, but Killer prefers close and personal as opposed to long range

#learning lore i didn't know #it's nice to have all this info in one spot #but bro #don't be an asshole #have some patience #this ask would have filled me with rage #good job op #cw suicide #cw suicidality #cw suicide ideation #cw sui mention #cw sui ideation #murder sans #killer sans #horror sans #nightmare sans #reblog #undertale #suicide

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