patience-knowledge-focus

[patience-knowledge-focus]

let's all hold hands and paws and whatever else and stop policing other beings' identities ok?

"you can't choose!" "it's always spiritual!" "you need to use X label instead of Y!" "it's always this, and it's actually that!"

shhhh. we are holding hands and paws and whatever else and realizing experiences vary and alterhumanity doesn't always look a certain specific way. ok?

[patience-knowledge-focus]

systems. reblog if u agree.

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[patience-knowledge-focus]

I really want to echo that it's not healthy to look down on a group of people, even people one doesn't like, because of their differing experiences or because you can't wrap your mind around that experience.

Tumblr can be a rough place to navigate with mental illness on the best of days. And I urge people to worry less about how others are exploring their experience and more on living and letting everyone else live, too.

endogenic plurality may be real but they're not systems, their experience will never match up to real systems and they should get the fuck out of system spaces. it's pathetic and laughable that they think they're similar to a disorder formed around trauma

- a traumagenic system

Aww what happened to “medically impossible”? Where’s all your facts and logic huh? So sad you don’t seem to actually have proof for that very bold claim you were making earlier.

First, endo systems have been calling themselves systems for just as long as CDD systems have. CDD systems don’t own the word, it’s used for a lot of other things too. Hell even singlets use it in IFS.

Second, I have DID and relate to endogenic systems just as much as other DID systems sorry but you’re just wrong lol. It’s more or less the same as the difference between a traumatized & un traumatized singlet. They generally dont have the amnesia, cptsd, and less dissociation, but overall they’re still really similar to us.

It’s not healthy to completely avoid interacting with ppl without trauma. Sure, CDD spaces are for people with CDDs, but like I said non disordered systems generally aren’t trying to be there anyway. It’s good to have mixed spaces where disordered systems can get an idea of what healthy multiplicity can look like and non disordered systems can learn about and support ppl with CDDs.

It’s not healthy to look down on a group of people just because they don’t have the same experiences as you, just because they haven’t suffered as much. Personally when I see plurals without trauma it gives me hope for the future, makes me feel like I can have a happy ending too yknow? Like I don’t have to be defined by trauma just cause I’m in a system. I know not everyone will feel like that and you don’t have to, but that’s just my perspective.

Look I know we’ve been really .. unfriendly to you here (as you have also been to us to some extent) but like I genuinely would love for us to just be able to get along. This kind of fighting is really unhealthy for the cdd community and the wider plural community. we’re stronger together, both in our own minds and in our external communities.

[patience-knowledge-focus]

Recently, I was looking at the logs we keep for when we have migraines, and I noticed an interesting pattern.

More often than not, specifically when Keith fronts, we get a very particular type of head pressure that's localized to just one side of the brain and has a very predictable location. It's located on the right side, toward the top of the head, closer to the middle -- and often when I feel it, I know Keith is hanging out.

It's distinct enough that we have a name for it in our logs, and several headmates recognize the particular sensation. So, that's interesting.

And honestly, it could be nothing. We have migraines. That alone is weird enough. But this is just a cool weirdness that doesn't seem to cause any additional problems and is, for us, who like data, fascinating.

Keith's theory is that it has something to do with how he came into existence. I don't know for sure, but I remember reading about it when discussing headmate creation. But that was a long a time ago, so now I'm wondering.

Edit: I should add that we've known about the sensation for a while but didn't correlate it with who exactly was fronting until this year because we don't record our fronts.

[patience-knowledge-focus]

Casual reminder that the ToSD is supported by brain scan studies

Dissociative part-dependent biopsychosocial reactions to backward masked angry and neutral faces: An fMRI study of dissociative identity disorder.

Functional Neuroimaging in Dissociative Disorders: A Systematic Review

Dissociative Part-Dependent Resting-State Activity in Dissociative Identity Disorder: A Controlled fMRI Perfusion Study

Dissociative identity state-dependent working memory in dissociative identity disorder: a controlled functional magnetic resonance imaging study

Neurobiology and Treatment of Traumatic Dissociation

I'll probably keep adding more to the comments for my own records

[patience-knowledge-focus]

hey actually shout out to systems who have quiet spells and don't hear from other hesdmates for a while, i never see any rep for us so here it is now can I get a hell yea

[patience-knowledge-focus]

A Daydreamer's Guide to Willomancy

Since we've never seen any guides for this that isn't connected to paromancy, we figured that hey! Maybe we should be the first that we know of! Especially after being encouraged by a system server we're in.

So, specifically for how we do it, it's heavily based in daydreams. So I'm sorry if you have aphantasia or otherwise can't daydream, this guide won't be helpful to you. But hopefully this may encourage others to write their own guides based on their own methods!

Firstly! An appearance has got to be constructed! As specific as you need in order to have a really good idea of what they would look like in situations. Sometimes we use the appearance of fictional characters as a base, or picrews and such in headmate packs. I'm not gonna assume species, but essentially you'll want to create something within your mind that you can puppet around.

We also insert traits at around this time. Like, imagining us lifting up the face or opening up the chest to insert specific traits that we want into our headmate. Other traits will come with time, but this is what we go in terms of the base. Like a baby soul!

Once you're successful, you'll have a headmate! Kinda. They're probably not sentient yet. However you probably can puppet them around like they can think! And that's essentially what we're gonna do next.

Imagine them in various daydreams in as many situations as possible. Don't be afraid to go light, or dark, or silly, or serious! We find that as much variety as we can helps. And this is generally the longest step.

Essentially, puppet them around until you start to feel any sort of feeling or opinion in that headmate. It may be as simple as "No." in response to what you're trying to puppet them to do in that moment, or them in a daydream situation stating "I like the blue one." and such. You want to encourage these responses as much as you can. Talk to them! Puppet them how they want.

Their responses will grow, until eventually the daydreams are a collaborative project! With them equally contributing. And with this, comes the last step.

Confidence building.

Although more experienced in the innerworld, they may feel akin to a newborn baby deer in the outterworld. And so, they may need to be pushed some. Put them in control in social situations you know are safe, such as making them talk in safe discord servers. And you play an important role in this too! You gotta be both their cheerleader, and advisor. Encouraging them to talk, and giving them ideas on what to talk about. If they don't know how to respond to a person, give them your advice and let them make their choice. After a bit of time, they'll feel more stable and confident in the outterworld too.

And then, there you have it! A headmate that has been created, willed into existence. A headmate who is seperate to you and is also equal to you. Hope you enjoy your new pal! And, feel free to send us questions either on this post or via our inbox.

[patience-knowledge-focus]

A child having an imaginary friend acting on their own accord doesn’t necessarily require dissociation, at least not at a clinical level. This could be the child acting out at a desire at an unconscious level by using the imaginary friend as a driver to access said desire. I suppose that it’s unconscious gives off the sense that it’s “separated from the host child”, but everyone, singlets included, act in ways for reasons unknown to them. Unconscious drivers or actions are a main component of our understanding of basic human psychology. Nobody, except maybe a Buddhist monk, has full conscious awareness or control of why they do the things they do, have the thoughts they have, etc.

I would argue that the way advanced imaginary friends behave isn't unconscious. Rather, it's a separated consciousness.

The advanced imaginary companion isn't merely doing things. It's thinking things. It's thinking thoughts that are indicative of self-awareness, and feeling emotions of its own.

The complex imaginary companion can feel emotions. It can happy. It can be sad. It can be angry. Each of these feelings are generated by the shared brain, but are sectioned off from the host child. Dissociated from it. Compartmentalized.

I think we all can agree that there's a pretty big gap between "not knowing why you do things sometimes," and "having a complex entity in your mind that you can't control, with its own set of complex thoughts and feelings, and a separate sense of self-consciousness from your own."

[patience-knowledge-focus]

Reminder for every system out there:

You don’t owe anyone your trauma. You’re allowed to be silly about your disorder online, and fuck anyone who says you can’t.

Equally, you can share your trauma online, discussing your disorder in serious ways. Fuck anyone who says you can’t.

You owe people nothing. Do what is best for you.

[patience-knowledge-focus]

Since my reply is hidden, I've decided to just make my own post about this and put some accurate info out there.

Covert DID vs Overt DID & Possession vs Non-possession: They don't mean what you think they mean!

Here's a bunch of facts and info in no particular order!

I saw a post about how masking isn't a type of covert DID, and I'm here to tell you that

Masking was the original covert!

Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders (by Dorahy, Gold & O'Neil, 2nd edition, 2023)

You know the statistic in the DSM about covert/overt systems? It's taken from Kluft, above. And it includes masking.

Covert and overt aren't actually used all that often clinically, but it actually has several meanings, INCLUDING MASKING. Neither has to do with possession or non-possession, but they're unfortunately often incorrectly equated as "possession form = overt" and "non-possession = covert". They can overlap, but this is incorrect!

Possession's biggest use is for a disorder that no longer exists as a separate entry in the DSM 5.

Possession-Trance disorder still exists in the ICD, though, and we'll start there.

Trance disorder

"The trance state is not characterised by the experience of being replaced by an alternate identity."

"Trance Disorder is characterized by recurrent or single and prolonged involuntary marked alteration in an individual’s state of consciousness involving a trance state (without possession)."

"The trance state is not characterized by the experience of being replaced by an alternate identity."

"The identities of the possessing agents typically correspond to figures from the religious traditions in the society."

"In Possession Trance Disorder, the individual’s normal sense of personal identity is experienced as being replaced by an external ‘possessing’ spirit, power, deity or other spiritual entity, which is not the case in Trance Disorder. Possession trance states often include more complex activities (e.g., coherent conversations, characteristic gestures, facial expressions, specific verbalizations) than are typical of trance states, which tend to involve less complex activities (e.g., staring, falling)."

We can already see how this is starting to play out with overt/covert and non-possession/possession form.

Possession trance disorder

"Possession trance disorder is characterised by trance states in which there is a marked alteration in the individual’s state of consciousness and the individual’s customary sense of personal identity is replaced by an external ‘possessing’ identity and in which the individual’s behaviours or movements are experienced as being controlled by the possessing agent."

"Trance episodes are attributed to the influence of an external ‘possessing’ spirit, power, deity or other spiritual entity."

"During possession trance states, the activities performed are often relatively complex (e.g., coherent conversations, characteristic gestures, facial expressions, specific verbalizations that are frequently culturally accepted as belonging to a particular possessing agent)."

"Presumed possessing agents in Possession Trance Disorder are usually spiritual in nature (e.g., spirits of the dead, gods, demons, or other spiritual entities) and are often experienced as making demands or expressing animosity."

"The identities of the possessing agents typically correspond to figures from the religious traditions in the society."

"This is distinguished from Dissociative Identity Disorder and Partial Dissociative Identity Disorder, which are characterized by the experience of two or more distinct, alternate personality states that are not attributed to an external possessing agent. Individuals describing both internally and externally attributed alternate identities should receive a diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder or Partial Dissociative Identity Disorder. In this situation, an additional diagnosis of Possession Trance Disorder should not be assigned."

From Dissociative Identity Disorder, I only want to note one thing:

"Individuals who describe both internal distinct personality states that assume executive control as well as episodes of being controlled by an external possessing identity should receive a diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder rather than Possession Trance Disorder."

So, already, we've learned that possession and non-possession have to do with whether the entities are experienced as internal or external agents.

You'll note that the ICD doesn't mention covert or overt at all.

So back to the DSM-- “possession” was diagnosed as Atypical Dissociative Disorder in the DSM-III or DDNOS in DSM-III-R. In DSM-IV, possession and trance were diagnosed as sub-categories of the Dissociative Trance Disorder (DTD), and in DSM-IV-TR they were merged into one, and recognized as a cultural variant of the Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified [DDNOS]. In DSM-5, possession-form presentations are linked with criterion A of DID: “Disruption of identity characterized by two or more distinct personality states, which may be described in some cultures as an experience of possession” (p. 292).

Another common myth has to do with amnesia and covert/overt. The facts are:

Covert DID is associated with the highest levels of blackout amnesia. That's how it stays covert. People have amnesia for their own amnesia. It's an incredible phenomenon that's highly documented.

Overt DID typically has the same or less amnesia. It's much harder to explain away noticeable behaviour so people are much more aware of their own gaps in memory and can begin treatment sooner. They're much more easily diagnosed. As internal dialogue and intrusion are far more different in these entities, people become aware sooner and experience more grey out amnesia thanks to this basic awareness.

Covert DID is no longer diagnosed as OSDD 1a. The DSM 5 introduced new reporting criteria that allow the patient and their family to self report switches. OSDD and DDNOS 1a were primarily used for situations where the clinician didn't witness a switch during interviewing. As such, OSDD these days mainly covers P-DID presentations where switching is genuinely rare, if it happens at all. While P-DID is less associated with amnesia, OSDD 1a will require it. P-DID without amnesia will fall into 1b or DID itself, thanks to the DSM's updated amnesia wording.

For this next bit, I'll be using the DSM 5, as that's what I have in front of me, for the purposes of this conversation, this version will do fine.

"Dissociative identity disorder is characterized by a) the presence of two or more distinct personality states or an experience of possession."

"The fragmentation of identity may vary with culture (e.g., possession-form presentations) and circumstance. Thus, individuals may experience discontinuities in identity and memory that may not be immediately evident to others or are obscured by attempts to hide dysfunction."

You know, overt/covert, and wow, it doesn't just have to do with the entities, BUT HOW YOU DESCRIBE YOUR DISORDER?!

You mean... like masking?

Holy shit, yeah, the DSM just said that.

These terms are not as interchangeable as some people think they are. They have very unique meanings and are very different concepts, not only from each other, but from how they're often used within the community.

To reiterate:

Possession form = external entities

Non-possession = internal entities

Overt = noticeable behaviour and mannerisms

Covert = hidden or sneaky behaviour or mannerisms

These can and do overlap, but exist as separate concepts.

More from the DSM:

"The defining feature of dissociative identity disorder is the presence of two or more distinct personality states or an experience of possession (Criterion A). The overtness or covertness of these personality states, however, varies as a function of psychological motivation, current level of stress, culture, internal conflicts and dynamics, and emotional resilience."

Oh, wow, it changes over time and can vary between alters themselves?! Wow.

"Sustained periods of identity disruption may occur when psychosocial pressures are severe and/or prolonged. In many possession-form cases of dissociative identity disorder, and in a small proportion of non-possession-form cases, manifestations of alternate identities are highly overt. Most individuals with non-possession-form dissociative identity disorder do not overtly display their discontinuity of identity for long periods of time; only a small minority present to clinical attention with observable alternation of identities."

"Possession-form identities in dissociative identity disorder typically manifest as behaviors that appear as if a “spirit,” supernatural being, or outside person has taken control, such that the individual begins speaking or acting in a distinctly different manner. For example, an individual’s behavior may give the appearance that her identity has been replaced by the “ghost” of a girl who committed suicide in the same community years before, speaking and acting as though she were still alive. Or an individual may be “taken over” by a demon or deity, resulting in profound impairment, and demanding that the individual or a relative be punished for a past act, followed by more subtle periods of identity alteration."

So, yes, according to the DSM, purposefully masking is a covert presentation, and it has nothing to do with possession or non-possession form. The way a system "naturally" presents will change many times over the course of their disorder.

IN FACT, if we want to get technical, covert actually refers specifically to heavy fragmentation in most clinical texts. Fragments are typically experienced internally and as intrusion, rather than switches. Here's a source.

Covert DID is a less dramatic and more subtle form of the disorder. In this variant, individuals with DID do not display overt switches or distinct personalities. Instead, they experience a fragmentation of their identity, leading to a lack of continuity in their sense of self and memory. These individuals may not even be aware of their condition and might attribute their memory lapses and identity shifts to stress, forgetfulness, or other factors.

Covert DID can be challenging to diagnose because the symptoms are less obvious. It often goes unrecognized for years, and individuals may suffer in silence without understanding the source of their difficulties. Therapy and expert evaluation are essential for identifying and addressing covert DID.

And another.

In addition, diagnostic challenges can result from identity alteration or personality switching not as obvious as expected. In fact, many patients have “covert DID” or “OSDD,” which is characterized by partial dissociation (e.g., dissociative intrusions) rather than full dissociation (i.e., switching plus amnesia).

In the end, though, these terms aren't used all that often, and various uses will still be understood in a clinical setting. Doctors can't even agree on definitions, so use them however you want.

It's not that big of a deal.

I hope this post was useful, even if it was a bit disjointed.

[patience-knowledge-focus]

re: the notes of this post (replies are turned off) https://www.tumblr.com/patience-knowledge-focus/766962316160958464/after-looking-through-several-days-of-syscourse Oh neat! Yeah, that makes sense--for me as a kid, it was less of actively feeling like two people, and more like constantly feeling I was supposed to be connected to some "other half", but I didn't know where they were. (I used to be really drawn to all those "telepathically bonded magical companion person/creature" story tropes as a kid, the more equal the relationship the better). Fast-forward approximately 20 years, suddenly we're a system, and it made sense in some deeply felt, fundamental way--like there was always supposed to be two of us, and it just took a while for our brain to catch up, somehow X'D -L

Thank you so much for the heads-up about replies being turned off. They're on now, I hope. 🤞

Our experiences are very similar!

We don't really talk much about our origins because it gets confusing. Kitten and I have always existed (as far back as we can remember) in some way, shape, or form. When we were kids, Kitten considered me her companion, the other half of her soul, and her imaginary friend all in one package. We'd talk a lot while out on walks and bored at home. Our inner world was basically me in a crystal and her outside it, hanging out.

Sometimes, I fronted even.

I think she just assumed that's how all people were, and I don't remember thinking much about it. And we vibed with media that portrayed those same things.

But we also had a shitty childhood, so who knows what actually happened in all those years we don't remember. We were lonely kids.

And it took us a long time to realize that other people are not so divided, and that our experiences had a name. We eventually went to therapy for severe anxiety and depression, and we currently have a diagnosis. We got to explain being AFAB, but also me being a binary male to our therapist. Our therapist is wonderful, but boy did he have a time!

So, 🤝and it's so cool to hear about other people with similar experiences! Thank you so much for sharing with us!

[patience-knowledge-focus]

After looking through several days of syscourse, you know what:

There is no point in spending thousands of words arguing about the validity of experience. It's pointless.

You can scream from the rooftops that the ICD/DSM/DIDresearch/Your Uncle says some experience isn't possible. And people are going to keep having it all the same. And they will give it whatever label fits.

Much more interesting are some of the bounds and conditions.

Did you know (from purely anecdotal evidence of reading #plurality tags for the last years) that people of all labeled origins tend to describe very similar experiences? Whatever is happening in the brain, is occurring in ways that share common language. This is fascinating.

Did you know that most systems on Tumblr stumble onto their systems rather than create them (again, regardless of origin)?

Or that most systems view their headmates in a generally positive light? Even when sharing frustrations about them and about the disorder (for those who are disordered). People who talk about spiritual origins, including possession, also discuss their experiences with generally positive words.

Did you know that some people introject fictives wholesale, and others seem to create and introject particular qualities or archetypes? And that those introjects often speak to the system's real-world influences, often from their childhood?

Did you know that a fair few people discuss a particular experience of being two, often complementary, beings? Specifically, two, often of different genders, often perceiving themselves as close friends, person+imaginary friend, or siblings? And I have no idea why. If this isn't cool, I don't know what is.

What I want is to see more people be interested in the details and less worried about policing each other's lived experience. I want to know what that means? Why does the brain do it that way vs. some other way? What does this mean for personality development?

Look, all I'm saying is that, arguing about whether someone is or isn't a system isn't going to get you anywhere. Whereas discussing shared experiences is a fascinating glimpse into how people understand themselves, how brains work, and how spirituality is closely connected to physical experience. These are remarkable things to dive into. That's what I want to see discussed more.

[patience-knowledge-focus]

PluralKit has added the ability to change where your system tag goes in your names! Here's a quick example list of ways I've found you can format it, apparently they plan to add additional stuff to the name formatting option in the future as well!

(also may just be good to know about if you moderate a server with PK so you're not wondering why that system's tag is at the front of their message LOL)

[patience-knowledge-focus]

I don't think anyone on Tumblr can answer that question for you.

There is currently no reliable way of determining with any accuracy whether someone is a system. (Supposedly systems look different on MRI brain scans, but those are cost prohibitive and may not be useful for individuals.)

Which means it's up to you how to label your experience. You know your life better than anyone else. If thinking about you and your companions as a system helps you explain your lived experience, then I think you're more than welcome to use that word and label. Ultimately, right or wrong, it's a good idea to use whatever concepts work for you to help you survive and thrive. Accuracy is great for math problems, not for messy human minds.

My recommendation would be to also speak with a therapist, if that's an option for you. And I say this because people who arrive in system spaces with some notion that they're not alone in their head might have some associated trauma. And talking through that with someone who knows more about the brain than random Tumblr folks is usually a good idea. Unfortunately, I know that's not an option for everyone, so this is a gentle nudge if anything.

It's also OK to not be certain and to know immediately whether the shoe fits, so to speak. Don't be afraid to give yourself time to try out different ways of looking at your situation. It's OK to explore coping strategies meant for systems, for example, use the ones that work for you, and then decide you're not a system. Or vice versa.

If something helps you make sense of your lived experience, then awesome, and well done finding that something! The most important thing to remember is that your experiences are real to you, you deserve to be happy and to find community, and it's always OK to seek answers and to change your mind.

Regardless, you got this!

So... my situation relating to the topic.

I have lots of imaginary friends since age 4, they are all coming to visit and help me out through tough times. If it weren't for them I don't know how I would live with people actually not listening to me at all.

Most folks are from cartoons and I try to imitate their voices when they come to visit. My most beloved are Junior Draco (Zmey Gorynych from "Three Heroes") and the Cutie Mark Crusaders. Recently, the Voices started visiting me, too. I taught them how to hitch-hike and it proved real helpful just yesterday when I was going crazy during a pair in a stuffy room (Skeptic took control of my hand and wrote off the script he heard from my brain, because I was about to lose it).

I personally also help my friends out when they get upset about something. Draco and I are together because of shared trauma and MBTI correlations. We helped each other while I was in surgery for my shunt to be replaced (hydrocephalus) and while his central head was battling his PTSD triggers in second year of uni (more on that later).

They are part of my world, sure. But they're not me. I'm their friend. Am I a system?

[patience-knowledge-focus]

You don't have to call your alters 'parts'.

'Parts' is an incredibly divisive term among people with dissociative identity disorder (DID) and similar experiences. Some people love it, some people hate it, and some people have more complicated feelings on it.

Let me make this simple: the terms you use are up to you. Ideally, they should be ones that make your system feel safe. So, if someone calls you a 'part' and that makes you feel uncomfortable or unsafe, please tell them. A good friend or therapist will respect that.

Calling alters 'parts' is NOT necessary for everyone's recovery. For some people, it can be extremely grounding and helpful! For others, being called 'parts' can actually make them more dissociated and fragmented. It's an entirely subjective matter. Here's what one of the leading experts on DID, Dr. Loewenstein, says (source):

"Clinically, the term 'parts' can be a useful, colloquial, descriptive term for clinicians and patients, although some DID patients respond to this term negatively (e.g., 'Hey, we're important! She says we're just parts!'). The most recent ISSTD Guidelines for DID Treatment (Chu et al., 2011) counsels that, if possible, it is preferable for clinicians to use the DID patient's own term for self-states."

Please continue using the terms that make you feel the safest, whether that be parts, people, alters, headmates, selves, or anything else. If the terms you use are somehow harming you, that's not something that strangers on the Internet can know for sure. It's something that should be worked through with a therapist and your system, at your own pace and free of shame.

[patience-knowledge-focus]

My left kidney would like to disagree! /silly

Good news everyone! We're all plural?

System? Plural!

Singlet? Plural!

On account of all the organs in your body!

[patience-knowledge-focus]

i really really don't think it's healthy to call your body "the body". It's just going to strengthen your dissociative symptoms. It's not "the" body, it's YOUR body. Even if it doesn't feel like it belongs to you, even if you don't identify with it, it is still yours.