notademon10

[notademon10]

[notademon10]

Good

Small followup to my prior "Kris is Deltarune Frisk" thing with far less convincing arguments:

The bonus scene at the end of True Pacifist when you select "I want to stay with you" occurs in "room_end_myroom." This also applies to its sprites/tileset/backgrounds. The tileset for the room uses "bg_myhouse." The door uses "spr_myroom_doorbg." The drawer sprite is "bg_mydrawer." The lamp sprite is "bg_mylamp." The window sprite is "bg_mywindow. The bed sprite is "bg_mebed" (for some reason, it's the only odd one out).

The usage of "my" here is fairly notable and distinct from the rest of the rooms in the game. It's in first person from Frisk's perspective. The room we see is their room, in their house. The only other instance (outside of variables) where I could find something similar is "ourheart" which is used during Flowey's neutral boss fight.

In Deltarune, we have a similar case with Kris's house, although it's far more inconsistent and only really for the backgrounds of 3 rooms. Kris' room is "room_krisroom" but uses "bg_myroom." The hallway is "room_krishallway" but uses "bg_myhallway." The bathroom is "room_torbathroom" but uses bg_mybathroom. There's an exception to this that uses the "_my" in both its background and room name. The end of chapter 1 takes place in a different room named "room_myroom_dark" and uses "bg_myroom_dark."

I personally think this is a deliberate reference to the ending house cutscene of the true pacifist, especially since the SOUL removal scene at the end of chapter 1 is already a direct reference to what can occur in that scene. These events happen in Frisk/Kris' house in their room. But this could also just be meaningless or me mistaking something. Interpret it how you will.

Don't take this one seriously: Toby, or whoever helps write the newsletters, has mistaken Kris and Frisk in the past. In the UT 8th anniversary newsletter (https://toby.fangamer.com/newsletters/autumn23/), there's an illustration done by Temmie with what is clearly Frisk holding a cake, but it is instead labeled "Kris with a cake." I don't consider this one to be a valid argument, but it is funny and worth bringing up.

[notademon10]

Warning for a lot of irrelevant ranting about a specific Deltarune theory topic that has no impact on the actual plot of the game at all.

A lot of the time in Deltarune fan content, the creators will have Kris meet a Deltarune version of Frisk, usually as one of Asriel's college buddies or something.

I very much hate it (this is an exaggeration its just a thing that commonly happens that irritates me slightly and I needed a good way to start the post). Kris IS the Deltarune version of Frisk. It's been pretty much told to us since Undertale launched (specifically Version 1.001) via Clamgirl.

"My neighbor's daughter looks about your age. Her name is "Suzy." I feel like you two should be friends. Not knowing where I live is no issue. Fate finds a way. In life's grand scheme, she might be why you came here in the first place..."

What does Clamgirl keep talking about? What is the purpose of her dialogue? Foreshadowing Deltarune. Talking to her is what spawns the "Don't Forget" note in Sans' basement. She's the one who went goner mode to break the 4th wall a month before Deltarune launched. Everything she says about Frisk and Suzy foreshadows Kris and Susie.

"Suzy" and Frisk are fated to meet each other. In life's grand scheme, Frisk's fall needed to happen for them to meet Suzy. Fate is a huge theme in Deltarune, but what I want to specifically emphasize is that Kris and Susie were fated to meet due to the prophecy. They needed to meet to become heroes.

Clamgirl says Frisk and Suzy "should be friends." Just like how Kris and Susie end up as friends extremely quickly. Frisk "looks about'" the same age as Suzy, Kris and Susie are in the same class and thus around the same age.

Kris is just an anagram of Frisk minus the 'F'. Suzy is phonetically identical to Susie, just with one less letter. They are the only notable characters to have changed names inbetween universes, and they just swapped the number of letters with eachother. Something to note is that their UT versions do not have the anagrams to "Risk" and "Issue," which depending on the plot of this game, might actually be important.

This isn't even talking about all of Kris and Frisk's numerous other similarities.

They have the EXACT same skin color and hair color. They most likely have the same eye color, as either the red eyes are unnatural and caused by possession or possession doesn't affect their eye color. Chara does take over Frisk's body, but the sprite uses Frisk's color pallette, their skin color and hair color are the same. It's still Frisk's body. Thus the eyes are Frisk's eyes.

They have similar light world equipment. Both of them wear bandages. Frisk has a stick. Kris has a pencil, which is a wooden stick-like object.

Their light world item throw-away narration has them performing the same actions to items.

Kris has blue and magenta themed colors in the dark world, which is just a more vibrant version of Frisk's clothing color scheme in Undertale. Their entire dark world room that Ralsei built for them is in that color scheme. Ralsei specifically knows about Kris and Susie's interests and desires, as their rooms have those design choices things in mind.

They're both flirtatious. Frisk is incredibly apparent with their flirting, but you can flirt with multiple enemies as Kris, and Toby has stated they'd get accidentally disbarred due to flirting with a witness in an ace attorney setting.

They're both mischievous as well. Kris' pranks are described by Toriel, Rudy, and Noelle. They also can prank Noelle in an incredible amount of ways during chapter 2 and seem to enjoy doing it. Frisk has a lot of small little moments, especially during ACTs or the hangouts with Papyrus, Undyne, and Alphys. Some usually missed ones are when they flatten a cinnabun and pour sea tea under the hotel doors.

They serve the same purpose, our protagonist we control. Even how we start playing as them is like identical. We name the first fallen human ("TrueChara" sprite name) or the Vessel, but instead of playing as them, we get shoved into the jaundice gremlins instead (Frisk uses "mainchara" for their sprites, and Kris uses it in their code). Kris is just the natural progression of Frisk. The entire time, you were supposed to believe that you named Frisk, that they were your self insert into the world. That gets mirrored by Flowey, who believes Frisk to be the first fallen human (who you named). The game ends with Asriel and new/unspoiled players realizing that Frisk isn't Chara. In the next game, Kris gets that revealed immediately when they wake up, and they further that development by having their personality a lot more discernible without in-depth analysis.

No other theories talking about Kris' Undertale variant make sense. The Clamgirl lines are too strong. The only one that even comes close is Chara, and the similarities Kris and Chara share aren't as deep as they seem.

First off, things that Kris and Chara share that Frisk doesn't seem to show any opinions on. Chara has one comment about chocolate that seems to imply they like it and the weapon that represents them is a knife. Kris very much likes chocolate and knives, but does not use a knife as a weapon

The big one people like to point to Chara being the adopted child of the Dreemurrs. There are a lot of problems with this.

The first one is that, arguably, so is Frisk. Frisk shows interest in being adopted by Asgore when talking to Gerson in the TP epilogue and CAN be adopted by Toriel/call her mom.

The second is that Chara is distinctly and purposefully separated from the rest of the family every single time any of the Dreemurrs mention them. Asriel always calls them his best friend. In the winter alarm clock dialogue, Toriel talks about them starting with the phrase "a long time ago I knew someone " and, in the same conversation, talks about Asriel and calls him "my son." Asgore only mentions having a single child, a son, at the end of his battle. "I remember the day after my son died. [...] I just want to see my wife, I just want to see my child." He could have easily used the word "children" in either of these two instances, but did not. In the extended spare cutscene where Flowey does not kill Asgore, he again distinguishes Asriel as his child and Chara as someone else. "Young one, when I look at you... I'm reminded of the human that fell here long ago... [...] But I believe your freedom...... is what my son...... what ASRIEL would have wanted." It is only Gerson who calls Chara part of the family. The new home monsters said they were 'like' family specifically.

Kris meanwhile is always treated as part of the Dreemurr family. Narration, Toriel, and other characters refer to Asriel as their brother. Narration, Asgore, and other characters refer to Toriel as their mother. Narration, Toriel, and other characters call Asgore their father.

Third is that even if Chara is part of the family, they had an entirely different dynamic with UT-Asriel than Kris does with DR-Asriel. Chara and UT-Asriel are around the same age, with Chara taking the more stereotypically older sibling role. Kris is much younger than DR-Asriel, and Asriel takes the more stereotypically older sibling role. We can reasonably guess that Frisk is also younger than Flowey from a age standpoint. Even if Chara & Asriel were the same age as Frisk when they died, Flowey spent an unknown but long amount of time doing runs before Frisk fell. If Frisk is the one being talked to in the Winter Alarm Clock (extremely likely, Flowey's dialogue heavily hints at it), he directly positions himself as someone who's "grown up." Basically, Chara and Asriel are around the same age. Frisk and Kris are younger than their universe's Asriel.

My final point for this is that the relative timeline just works better if Kris is Frisk. All the monsters in DR are monsters we know exist/existed in Frisk's time. Even the Holiday family, with the daughters still notably being kids according to WAC-Asgore and DogCasino-Sans, the youngest one (Noelle) likely being Frisk's age like Suzy & MK are.

So at most Kris can be Frisk with a bit of Chara sprinkled on, but even if they are, Clamgirl confirms that the two of them are alternate universe versions of eachother. Chara either exists as the Vessel or as some random human in the world somewhere.

[notademon10]

This is a description of "Important Person's Shirt", which is just Kris' shirt.

This could mean a variety of things, like this shirt originally was from Asriel and that Kris wearing his shirt means that their love is now HIS love, and that his love is now THEIRS, whatever that means.

Other people have said that this CONFRIMATION that Kris is Chara.

Here's the thing: this is NORMAL love, not "LOVE". Chara directly states that among other things, they are LOVE. This is fact.

Wouldn't this be referring to the exact opposite concept? You know, the representation of the pacifist route, one that would better be represented by Frisk..?

Here's the thing, the Papyrus phone calls imply that the red trait is Love, and according to Ball Game, Red means that no matter how much you try, you will always be yourself.

What this description tells us is that by wearing this shirt, what makes Kris themself now belongs to you, and what makes YOU yourself now belongs to Kris.

This is basically referring to our control over them, although the fixation on love is an interesting oddity and should be further analyzed.

[notademon10]

You know what? Good theory

PREDICTIONS: Ralsei

or, why this pile of rock is going to tear my heart out

Ralsei is a Titan.

"The unending pillar of darkness that gives my body form" dedication in Ralsei's manual matches Ralsei's description of Titans "tak[ing] form from the FOUNTAINS"

Ralsei's body completely disappears when downed

Ralsei was first completely shadowy and amorphous within his hooded cloak, then a bit more defined but still shadowy under his hat, before finally settling on a more visible form at the end of Chapter 1

Just before removing his hat, for a couple of frames Ralsei's sprite changes his paw color from black to white. As well, where Ralsei previously had black paws in various animations such as clapping or spell use, they are now white in Chapter 2. These suggest that Ralsei's shadowy appearance is not simply caused by the shade from his hat.

Ralsei's initial description is a somewhat ambiguous "Dark-World being"

Unlike normal Darkners, Ralsei does not turn to stone and can seemingly teleport between Dark Worlds at will

Ralsei is the sole denizen of Castle Town, an area seemingly abandoned or evacuated, where Titan-like eye marks and darkness covers the land

Ralsei knows a lot about the Roaring

"Do not be alarmed... I am not your enemy." is one of Ralsei's first words to Kris and Susie

Ralsei wants to redeem himself for participating in the last Roaring by stopping it from happening again.

Again: Ralsei is the sole denizen of Castle Town, an area seemingly abandoned or evacuated, where Titan-like eye marks and darkness covers the land

Ralsei’s portrait/sprite when talking about the Roaring seems haunted

Ralsei says “I...I’m sorry!!! I repent!!!” in the generally foreshadowy Poppup dialogue

However, Ralsei is an unwitting pawn in a greater villain's scheme.

Ralsei is characterized as overly keen to follow orders.

Poppup dialogue: “Ralsei moved to click on an ad with a bunny on it teaching you how to make friends... ...and accidentally clicked on an ad of a machine gun that appeared over it!” / “Ralsei tried to click on an ad with a castle on it... ...but it was actually an ad for a company that demolishes buildings with bazookas!”

Again: Poppup dialogue: “I... I didn’t mean to do it... I... I’m sorry!!! I repent!!!”

In order to fix his mistakes or save the world, Ralsei may sacrifice himself, perhaps becoming the Waterfall statue in Undertale.

Undyne states "That statue's been here forever... No one knows where it came from." This description seems similar to Gerson's explanation of the Delta Rune: "That emblem actually predates written history. The original meaning has been lost to time..."

The statue is greyscale and cracked, like Darkners such as Lancer when turned to stone

The statue has horns, like Ralsei (note that the direction of Ralsei's horns varies across sprites/portraits and concept art, sometimes being turned inward and other times outward)

The statue is associated with the song "Memory," which is associated with Asriel, who appears connected to Ralsei

The statue in Waterfall may have been part of the original Royal Memorial Fountain before Mettaton's statue replaced it

If so: Ralsei is associated with all three concepts of a "Royal Memorial Fountain," being a prince who is made from a Dark Fountain and, as "memory" is a prevalent theme in Deltarune and Ralsei sings its "Don't Forget" motif in battle, with remembrance as well

Other things:

Ralsei appears self-aware in the same way as Jevil and others.

"(SAVE and take a break anytime you want, OK?)"

"Even if it's not real, you can still have fun, right?"

"It seems like it was just a corrupted program."

There may be multiple "Ralsei"s in some way.

“They [two Ralsei plushes] are both correct. Both beautiful.” (Toby Fox on Ch 1 Livestream)

“Every Ralsei is equally beautiful.” (Toby Fox on Ch 1 Livestream)

“I just wonder what... being “Ralsei-like” even is...?”

Unknown: why does Queen not notice Ralsei?

“How Thoughtful You Two Have Come To Help Me / Kris, Susie / Which One Of You Wants To Be The New Knight”

“Hey Was There A Third Guy?????????”

“I Will Miss Each Of You / Noelle, Your Un-needed Honesty / Susie, Your Foolish Bravery / Kris, Your Chill Vibes / ... / B...Burghley?”

Unknown: why does Ralsei (seemingly) know about the ThornRing?

"..." if given

(screenshots: 1 2)

DISCLAIMER: this is a predictions post, just laying out the predictions that i have currently and my personal reasoning. eg. i am by no means the first or only person to consider titan ralsei rofl

[notademon10]

What could Sans find out about Flowey ?

By finishing a neutral route over and over again multiple times, Flowey has some unique dialogues in which he mentions various trivia or shares his thoughts on some of the other characters.

One such character is Sans, who Flowey notably gives us a warning about.

However, the way he words that warning feels a little intriguing :

While Sans is generally a very perceptive character who is often capable of making pretty good guesses from limited information, Flowey makes it rather obvious that he is speaking from experience rather than simply making a general comment about Sans' observation skills.

But a question that isn't brought up very often is, what was it exactly that Sans would frequently "find out" about Flowey to warrant this warning ? And how ?

While the question may seem unanswerable at first due to Flowey not giving us any specifics whatsoever, there are a few details scattered throughout the game which may allow us to deduce our way towards what was most likely the intended answer.

First, we know what solution Flowey ended up settling with in order to deal with whatever that issue was : Simply avoiding Sans.

In any given timeline, Flowey took the habit of avoiding to be seen by or around Sans at any point, unless he specifically had something in mind that required him to do so. (such as in the pacifist ending) As a general rule of thumb, he would avoid Sans altogether as much as possible.

However, even with that effort on Flowey's side, a quick mention of a talking flower from Papyrus is already enough to seemingly get Sans at least a little suspicious that something may be up with that.

This is our second clue : The fact that it took Sans so little information for him to get suspicious of what Papyrus told him about a flower.

Our last clue is the few words we hear from Sans after he sees and hears Flowey at the end of the pacifist route :

In order to find out what to make of those clues, we need to introduce a fourth element : Sans' scientific background.

Luckily, none of the more complicated or speculative nuances of that side of his character are required here, all that we need is to highlight his somewhat-hidden friendship with Alphys.

She knows him well enough to call his jokes in advance :

Or here, the game more obviously points out that these two seem surprisingly friendly.

Sans tries to play it off, but it is clear they know a lot more about each other than seems at first glance.

But how much exactly ?

Well...

To go back to our main point, if one were to call Papyrus' phone in front of Alphys' lab, the conversation between the skeletons brothers would eventually deviate towards the question of wether or not Alphys is hiding dogs inside of her lab.

To which Sans answers, winking :

If it had just been this one joke, it may have been a coincidence, but the game doubles down on this exact same implication if you call Papyrus from within the lab as well, showing that this connection between Sans and Endogeny was absolutely intentional :

While the determination experiments were sorely Alphys' entreprise, it appears that Sans was at least made aware of the way they ended up playing out.

We cannot affirm with certainty how much detail exactly Sans has regarding the experiments, but if he is aware for the dogs and possibly even involved in dealing with them (as he had the dog food bag in his room), then he most definitely would also know about the vessel too. It was the main goal, after all.

This vessel had a few particularities.

First, it was a golden flower, the flower from the outside world, chosen for symbolic reasons.

But second, that specific golden flower was chosen because it was different from the rest.

It was at the center of the garden, it had grown before all the others, those were the ones mentioned by Alphys in her entries. But there was one more specificity which she omitted to bring up :

Golden flowers in Undertale are a species of flowers which has 5 petals.

But our "vessel" had a mutation, resulting in an extra 6th petal.

A design choice in part, perhaps, but one that takes a very real in-world importance within this context.

Adding to this that, from the view of the current timeline iteration, the vessel seems to have suddenly vanished one day and...

Since it is likely for Sans to have been aware of all of this, now, it makes a lot of sense that the mere idea of a new mysterious talking flower that says strange things showing up out of nowhere would immediately put him on high alert. A potential connection with the missing vessel is easy to make.

Actually, now that we have this context, even Alphys seems to make the same connection as well after hearing Papyus mentioning a talking flower just before Flowey arrives.

But most of all, it now feels incredibly clear why Flowey needs to avoid being seen by Sans so much.

His entire appearance, and particularly his obvious extra 6th petal, are all dead giveaways of his origins.

Could Sans, who is skilled enough at analysing faces to tell the difference between the face of someone that has died 9 or 10 times in a row, really miss out on such blaring evidence ?

Of course not.

Flowey might as well have written "i am the vessel" on his face with a marker as far as Sans is concerned.

Chances are that merely seeing Flowey even once would be all it takes for Sans to be practically certain that Flowey must be the former vessel.

Not only that, but given that those experiments were all about determination, the so called "resolve to change fate", Flowey would also immediately be considered extremely likely to be the anomaly, too.

This is what we see in this scene :

Not only does Sans get to see Flowey here, but the speech that Flowey makes during this scene also provides him with definitive evidence that Flowey really was the "anomaly" he had been worried about, as his psychological profile matches extremely well with the one Sans shows us to have built for the anomaly in a genocide route. But, it also shows him that Flowey has, for now at least, lost his anomalous time powers to Frisk, and is thus struggling to keep them in his "game".

This suggests that for now, Frisk actually still has the advantage, and that despite all those crazy speeches, without his reset powers, that weirdo has got nothing on them.

But this is all later on in the story.

During Flowey's earlier RESETs, being seen by Sans, even once, quickly becomes a major pain for Flowey in every timeline iteration in which it happens.

At best, he might get "pranked accross time and space" a number of times. At worst, Flowey might have no choice but to reset and start all over again on whatever he was aiming to do.

Except this time around, without letting the smiley trashbag learn ANYTHING about him.

[notademon10]

This is Lillian, a cute porcelain Darkner who disappeared from the sky city many years past.

Not many people know what happened to her.

Sometimes, though, you might see her around.

But it's not Lillian anymore.

There's something... SOMEONE else. Behind her voice. Her actions. Her will.

She won't recognize you, either. There's only one thing she talks about: shattering herself into pieces.

Rumors spread stigmatically. "If she breaks, it will set free a demon within her."

In a distant past, a group of Lightners concocted a dark ritual to transform someone into a monster.

Leave behind all that is human of you and store it away for no one to find.

Wretched hands sprout from beneath the cracks in the walls.

The battle takes place in an abandoned train station. (We've been working on the same battle background for over a year.)

As it is our Chapter 4 shadowboss, you will play in the Purple SOUL mode.

(A few idle animations)

Lillian and the demon within are an expansion of @/soaresskl93's amazing design from years ago for a Church World shadowboss! We owe this character entirely to them.

And that's all! Lillian is a character you may encounter in the full release of Pantheon of the Discarded. And while you'll find a different track than the original one we posted, please check out OnlyAnAlex's remix.

Stay tuned for a final showcase of our most unspoken shadowboss yet.

[notademon10]

The only thing I see here is based

Transcript: i prefer krusie to suselle, kerdly, or any other ship involving kris or susie

[notademon10]

"B-but Chara only acts this way because of the genocide route!! They didn't want this!!!"

The effects of LOVE are quite overstated.

It has been quite frequent to see the concept of LOVE mentioned by Sans in his judgments being interpreted as a force progressively depriving the person possessing it of all empathy or judgement until they are rendered into practical killing machines whilst approaching the cap of 20.

Whilst there are some truths to part of these concepts, interestingly, extrapolating implicit data from the game suggests that the effects LOVE have on a character's personality, whilst existing, are not as significant as they are generally believed to be.

Let's do a proper analysis of what we can say of LOVE's effects based only on the in-game content :

First, aside from Sans' words about it, do we dispose of any clear cut examples of changes relating to LV to analyse ?

That might seem like a silly question, but some of the lines that are often attributed to LV-induced personality changes turn out to not actually be LV-dependent once you check the game's code.

For instance, the narration of the bag of dog food is decided through kill count, not LV, meaning that it possible for instance to get the 'pessimistic line' despite not gaining any LOVE, and thus, this line cannot be attributed to changes related strictly to LV gain and isn't very useful to us here.

Actually, the amount of direct evidence we see of it having any effect at all which we can be certain off is quite small. But such a thing does exist via interactions relating to this dummy :

LV1 :

LV2+ :

LV5+ :

LV 8+ :

The only factor involved in deciding which of these lines will appear after deciding to punch the dummy is LOVE, it is notably distinct from other similar interactions like those mentioned above which tend to be governed by some variation of a kill count or a check regarding wether particular characters were killed.

As similar LV can be reached through killing various amount of monsters or varieties of monsters, unique or not, no equivalence can be built between the required LV for each of those interactions and particular character(s) or amount of monsters required to be killed to reach said LV.

We can thus only take the code of the game at face value and conclude that those changes are strictly caused by changes dependent on the influence of the LV we've gathered in our route so far.

The first pattern that can be established is that the narration in the left column reports Frisk punching the dummy with increasing levels of strength following our command as LV increases.

In the right column, there is a split between the four lines in the middle regarding the way the narration reports it.

The first two lines are narrated in the more common style, notably, explicitly reminding us that the actions or thoughts presented are Frisk's by refering to them as "you" as the subject of the sentence.

Those first two lines describe Frisk going from regret to a form of hesitant apathy regarding the fact that they've just punched a dummy as LV grows.

The latter two lines, however, mark a change in the narration type.

The "you" is dropped, and the thoughts presented are instead presented in a declarative form. This form is often used for first person affirmations, but can also be used outside of it in order to showcase a strong emotionally-driven reaction.

This ambiguity is particularly relevant here, as it blurs the line between wether those thoughts are Frisk's, the narrator's, or both. A detail that gains much importance under the NarraChara theory.

That being said, this nuance leads to a similar conclusion regarding LOVE in either case :

If the thoughts are fully Frisk's, then the last lines have Frisk moving from a hesitant apathy to a confident one before ultimately "feeling good". This would stay in line with the previous pattern.

(Although it is worth nothing that the "feel good" part may be at least partially due to a kind of natural endorphin release in Frisk's body from the physical exercise of "punching at full force", and thus could be only indirectly due to LV.)

If NarraChara is taken into account, then this would mean that this transformation in the tone of the narration in the last lines is due to LV related changes on Chara. And that this ambiguity in the phrasing of who those feelings belong to may indicate that the same observations we've just made on Frisk previously would apply to them similarly.

(Note : Given that the game code and files suggests that Chara and Frisk share their statistics, them both being affected by this same LV count would be coherent.)

In the official japanese version of the game, those lines for the dummy are mostly similar. However, the first two lines of the left column are a bit less distinct from each other, and the narration phrasing ambiguity seems to begin on the 2nd line of the right column rather than the 3rd.

Okay, so, what's wrong about the common perception, then ?

So far, it seems that LV does have some kind of trend that leads to growing apathy regarding the suffering of others and more aggressive actions being taken as a result of identical stimuli as it increases. That doesn't sound too far off ?

Well, sort of, but careless extrapolation made from those basic ideas have led to the emergence of theories and interpretations that treat those effects as being more consistent, generalised, and effective than can hold up to the scrutiny of our known cases through aggressive neutral routes.

Here is what i mean :

In some of the more aggressive variants of the neutral route, it is possible to attain a really high LOVE that comes close to what we see in the genocide route. Comparison between those routes and the genocide one, or sometimes content from these neutral routes themselves, can help show us incoherencies in some of those popular interpretations regarding how much difference LV really makes.

The first one that comes to mind is a popular one among 'Chara Defenders', suggesting that Chara's openly aggressive actions & narration which are specific to the genocide route in particular would really be a result of "corruption" induced by the LV-related changes which we would have forced onto them.

How well does this theory hold up through the aggressive neutral routes ?

Well...

Not very well.

To make a 'short' list :

Chara's "corruption" in genocide would generally begin to show as soon as LV3 at the end of the Ruins, however, they show no particular signs of this "corruption" in any neutral routes despite being able to reach much higher LV's of say, 14 near the end of the game.

It is possible to arrive at the end of the Ruins (or other areas) whilst having the same LV as in genocide during a neutral route, yet Chara shows none of those "corruption" lines in those cases either.

It is possible to finish many areas in the genocide route whilst having a lower/higher LV than usual by only fighting particular monsters who give you more/less EXP than average, yet none of Chara's genocide lines are changed to account for this lower of higher LV.

It is possible to abort the genocide route at many points by sparing a particular monster or failing to reach a kill count. When this happens, Chara's "corruption" lines suddenly disappear although the LV doesn't.

This still happens even if Chara's LV would have remained the same wether the monster was killed or not. Thus the lack of extra LV from the spared monter cannot explain this difference.

The aggressiveness shown by Chara does not seem to correlate with their growth in LV. For instance, they treat Toriel more harshly than Papyrus despite a past connection between Chara and Toriel and a lower LV at the time of that encounter.

Regarding some interpretations of the final genocide scene : Why would Chara oppose us for what we did at this point in time ? Shouldn't they still be "corrupted" ? The files at this stage still continue to list our LV as 20 indicating that they should.

Similarly, regarding some interpretations of the soulless pacifist route : If their previous behavior came from corruption, why would Chara kill at this stage or follow up on their previous plan ? By now our LV has long been reset to 1 and said corruption should no longer be in effect.

For all these reasons, it would not be coherent for the peculiarly aggressive behavior shown by Chara during the genocide route to be strictly caused by LV-induced changes.

To be fair, this time some minimum amount of LV is required to progress through the route and access many of those lines, meaning that a minor impact of said required LV cannot be ruled out, but this does mean nevertheless that the primary reason as to why Chara behaves this way in genocide is not related to their LV.

Actually, once you remove from consideration all those things, what you are left with in the rest of the genocide route is a Chara that hardly seems all that impacted by LV at all despite having a very high one.

In New Home, they still display some hints of emotional reactions in spite of a LV of 19.

And throughout the whole genocide route, NarraChara continues going through the regular encounters with the same jokes or sarcasm-filled comments as they would in any other route (If you take the time to ACT a bit or read the narration before killing that monster.) Once again, even with a LV of say, 15.

That doesn't make the very high LV's seem like they turn one into that much of a mind-numbed killing machine does it ?

Okay... Well, what about Frisk, then ? Our other example ?

There are some more narrations out there who can bring us a bit more information about Frisk :

The Sans fight can only be triggered if all previous checks of the genocide route have all been properly met up to this point. This means that it is not possible to start this fight at any other LV than 19, as the NEO fight is scripted to send you to that LV if the criteria for Sans are met.

Therefore, the narration of the Sans fight talks about a Frisk that necessarily has a very high LV of 19.

And yet...

Even at this point, Frisk does not seem to be immune to thoughts regarding the morality of the actions their body has undertaken. It quite literally appears to weigh on them.

This isn't a one-off case either :

If the genocide route is aborted in Hotland, Mettaton NEO has some special dialogue that goes in the same direction :

he says it quite clearly :

And, the same thing also applies regarding the regular encounters too. The ACTs Frisk can take and their behavior whilst executing them remain unchanged compared to a pacifist route, even during the end-stages of genocide in Hotland.

Of course, it isn't like we could have expected Toby to adapt the ACTs and narration of all encounters to vary depending on LV either, that would have been very tedious to code, but such a pronounced absense of any change is definitely noteworthy.

This all leads us to a few conclusions.

It is correct that LV can affect one's personality to some extent, but :

The effects of LV are not consistent through time & situations, they show up quite sporadically. Most of the time, you could hardly tell the difference between someone with high LV or merely LV1 during an average interaction.

Even having an extremely high LV does not dehumanise you. One can still feel emotions and conserve proper judgment or capacity for self-reflection.

The growth in LV magnifies the impact of its effects when they do manifest, but it does not seem to alter the frequency of such events.

It is not possible for LV to be the determining factor in Chara's behavior during the genocide route.

As Sans originally said : LV is above all a capacity to hurt, not a permanent necessary degradation of perception.

[notademon10]

What if, and only if, the memoryheads are made up of the secret bosses??

So many Fun events in Undertale involve your phone. The wrong number song. Sans and Alphys sometimes call you (both people involved with multiverse research). Being in the room with Gaster(?) and his followers make it so your phone doesn't work. This continues into Deltarune where your phone makes the Entry Number 17 sound, and Spamton has quite a bit to do with phones.

That being said, I REALLY truly feel Memory Head has some sort of connection to all this. They aren't an amalgam of any known monsters. They live in the true lab where Gaster, the previous royal scientist, presumably worked. And The WAY you interact with them is by Using Your Phone, where they immediately say "Come join the fun." Like. Like fun values. The multiverse variable.

LISTEN. I dont have any conclusions for this series of thoughts. But if we open the bunker in Deltarune and we find memory heads in there, you HAVE to give me a prize.

[notademon10]

GUYS!!!

[notademon10]

CRACK THEORY: KRIS=FRISK ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE?

The ultimate "Krisk" theory.

This is an admitetly ambicious theory that not only proposes that Kris is the Deltarune version of Frisk, but theorizes on it's implications. This means I'll be trying to solve a lot of things that might end up connecting to this, whether you see it coming or not. In other words: I'll put quite a few seemingly unrelated pieces together, and the result might just end up being something you won't like. You have been warned. That being said, I want to be as thematically coherent as possible with these games, which is something I THINK some people miss.

PART I. WHO AND WHAT IS FRISK LIKE

First off, Frisk is likely a pacifist. Their armor, the bandage, is usless except for the fact that it heals you, as well as secretly guaranteeing escape if you flee on the first turn. That's not even mentioning that Frisk is most determined in true paz, (as well as they ONLY ever smile when choosing options that relate to this route) PLUS the mirror at the end saying "Still just you, Frisk". Their weapon is the stick, which doesn't do ANYTHING at all, except sometimes being super helpful for acting in some scpecific fights. But the most damning peace of evidence comes from their soul color. We actually DO know what it stands for! Papyrus HEAVLY implies in a phonecall in elevator L3 from Hotland that it's actually... LOVE! Thus, this means that they MUST link to this concept, including their armor, and everything points towards normal Love, not, you know, L.O.V.E.

This ALSO explains WHY there are 2 red soul humans in Undertale! One represents Love, the pacifist route, and the other the genocide route, with Violence. I mean, Chara explained that THEY were the feeling of seeing numbers increase. ATK, DF, and of course, LV. To add to this, the mirror in geno says: "It's me, Chara".

A VERY important thing to mention is the RED description in Ballgame: Try as you might, but you continue to be yourself. This differenciates Frisk and Chara from Flowey as they are very true to themselves, while he changed due to the absence of "LOVE", of Chara. I actually believe that every main monster represents a lack of a certain human trait, but that's for another day.

So... Is Frisk Chara? Or some sort of combination of them and a monster, like Asriel? What I've just said is confusing, but it does have a precedent. There's a video made by Sock Muppet titled "Who are you?" that explains this much further, and the main argument for it is that in order for Frisk to exit the barrier, they must have two souls: a monster soul and a human soul.

Unfortunatly, I believe it is debunkable, because even if you believe that Frisk "the fusion" is it's own entity separate from Chara in a weird way, Asriel asks "Why did you climb the mountain?", which is something that only Chara did, so you would still have to accept that these two humans are the same, even on a thematic level, which contradicts Asriel's line "Frisk, you really ARE different from Chara. I don't know why I ever acted like you were the same person. The truth is, Chara wan't really the greatest person. While you, Frisk, are the type of friend I wish I always had."

A much better explanation for why Frisk could have exited the barrier is because they had the determination of two human souls, theirs, and OURS. After all, the legends of localitation book confirms that it is OUR determination that lets us use the save and load ability, while Frisk is just along for the ride.

PART II. WHY DID THEY CLIMB THE MOUNTAIN?

I swear this is critical.

Well, I believe we DO know why. In Snowdrakes battle, there's a 1/6 chance of you saying "Nobody will ever love for the way you are". It's harsh, and very clearly projection, but from who? You see, there is evidence of Chara acting on their own on normal routes, like when you tell dirty jokes to Joshua all of them link back to Chara's story: "two kids playing in the mud", "a kid sleeping in the soil" and "a kid who ate pie with their bare hands". So who's it actually saying this, Frisk or Chara? I believe it applies to them BOTH. As it is THE reason they fell down the mountain. Let me explain. We know this MUST be the MAIN problem they have with themselves because love is LITERALLY their MAIN trait. But how do I know it applies to them both? Well, given how Frisk and Chara are foils to each other, then their reasons for coming down must be parallel or linked in some way. After all, it would be odd if only ONE of them fell down because of a lack of love, and not the other, especially when BOTH of them seem to have been neglected.

However.. there is also the fact that Clam girl tells us why Frisk fell down here. "In the grand scheme of things, Suzy might be the reason why you came here". However, it is literally impossible for them to KNOW about her, as she is literally a monster underground. So I think we should look at this situation more metaphorically. How does she tie into Frisk's reason to climb the underground?

"Nobody will ever love you the way you are."

The only way I can connect this to her is if she IS that "nobody". Or better said, the somebody that will love them for the way they are. There's just a little problem with this... Every monster ends up loving them the way Frisk really is in True paz, the only route in which they can properly meet Suzy. Even Asriel makes a point about how they love Frisk almost instantly.

Again we need to think. In which way would Suzy love Frisk?

Platonically: Every monster already does that.

In a familial way: Asgore, Toriel and debatibly Asriel already do that.

There's only one option left. And that is... One that I'm sure you won't like, but I feel obligated to suggest regardless. I understand if you don't like this idea, and that the connection between them is just multiversal.

But.

Asriel implies the reason behind Frisk falling is a much more mundane, sadder reality. His facial expression and tone is enough. And, with the whole destiny and fate theme taken into account, I believe there is a good argument to make that Suzy might just end up loving Frisk romantically. However, I haven't really "proven" Frisk is Kris yet, so there's one thing I want to discuss: Sans.

PART III. SANDS DELTAROON???

So Sans and Papyrus are from Deltarune. This has been covered to death by other people. While Papyrus is a bit more dubious, his recent QnAs basically confirm this.

The thing is if Sans is from DR, then he has experienced events that haven't happened yet. So it's entirely possible that he coulf be a useful tool in helping us know what those events could be. And I think we can. Because there are two things that don't sit with me right: his hatred of promises, and you. Let's start with his hatred for us. It can't be that he hates humanity like the rest of the underground, as he is from a universe in which humans and monsters seem to get along just fine. There could still be differences, but racism would be seen pretty much exactly like in our world. So then, is he aware of the player? Or is it something else?

To understand exactly what he hates about us, the best place to look is his infamous genocide dialogue.

"listen. i know you didn't answer me before but... somewhere in there, i can feel it. there's a glimmer of a good person inside of you. the memory of someone who once wanted to do the right thing. someone who, in another time, might have even been... a friend? c'mon buddy. do you remember me? please, if you're listening... let's forget all this, ok?"

This dialogue ocurres even if this is your first playthrough. So, I have a question for you. What could he be possibly referring to? What glimmer, what MEMORY is he feeling? But if course, that entire speech could literally just be him bluffing, right?

The thing is, he's REALLY fucking good at reading Frisk's expressions, do he SHOULD know whether or not "we" remember Sans, and were even friends with him. But, there's just a LITTLE problem with this.

How COULD Frisk remember Sans in our first playthrough?

...Well, here's the thing, they DON'T!

Because the memory he's feeling is HIS.

And who does he remember?

Who did he not forget, because he made a promise in his heart?

Three very specific people. The three Delta Warriors.

So! Kris is Frisk, right??

...Well, here's the thing: Kris might not be the human hero, because of this:

And also this:

The human hero is simply called "Human", which could only make sense if, at the very least on one route, Kris isn't the hero. Who then, could it be? Well, if the lack of facial features didn't give it away, it's the vessel, Kris' parallel. So WHO is the vessel, then? Well, I believe it is none other than the Deltarune version of Chara!

PART IV. CHARA IS THE VESSEL??

At the end of geno, they want us to eradicate the UT world, and move on the next world. This is very clearly a metaphor for us completionists to completly consume the next game. It just so happens that the next game we play could very well be Deltarune.

...no, this isn't all of it. Because the second time you do the route, their dialogue changes and reveals some interesting things.

"Greetings.

I am Chara.

The demon that comes when people call it's name.

It doesn't matter when, it doesn't matter where

Time after time, I will appear.

And with your help.

We will eradicate the enemy and become strong.

Every time a number increases, that feeling...

That's me."

I have one simple question: what was Chara reffering when they said it didn't matter when, or where?

It couldn't be because we sold our SOUL to Chara, because while the one we gave them did belong to us, it was Frisk's SOUL. There's not really any other explanation for this happening, as they only really possess it in the ending, when the player has stopped playing. Chara's possession wouldn't be meaningful in any way if their time in Frisk's body corresponded to the player's playtime.

So... How could they be everywhere as well as well as be anytime??

This is going to sound farfetched, but I have no other option:

Either Chara's SOUL was somehow shattered across time and space along with Gaster, and/or Chara is talking about other worlds, atleast the Deltarune one.

All of this to say... You call Chara at the very beggining of Deltarune, or at the very least... You can. Because not only can you name yourself or the vessel "Chara", you can name yourselves whatever way you originally named them as.

... But, you end up naming two people: the vessel and it's creator. So who IS Chara?

I believe it is the vessel. Simply put, the name that the casual player is going to give them is probably like any other protagonist, or in the very specific case of UT, the first fallen human. While the name they're going to give the creator is going to THEIR name. And I mean, if both the vessel and creator were characters, then naming them in a sense would be calling two different Charas. While if only the vessel is a character, while the creator is US, you would only be calling one Chara, while the creator would just be you, since you wouldn't be calling anyone else, just yourself.

On the toic on whatever you're supposed to call Chara, Toby Fox said "Your name, if you can't think of anything else lol". But when asked on twitter if naming Chara after their cat would be ok, which he said that it would ALSO work.

I think "your name" could be referring to the name you put yourself when you play any game, really. Kind of like "notademon" is my username on this site, but obviously is not my name.

I also have one last trick up my sleeve. Remember the unused human? You can see them as Frisk's reflection in waterfall, if you activate debug mode. At first, I thought it was just a beta version of Chara.. but they appear in a reflection in waterfall. And by then, Chara had already one single stripe. After all, their design had originated when Temmie had accidentally drawn a single stripe on Frisk!

What I'm trying to say is that the unused human could never have been implemented in tge actual game, as Frisk and Chara already have their design. Which means that the unused human might just be a teaser for Deltarune. So who could they end up being?

Given how it's Frisk's reflection, they must parallel each other in some way.

Well, this really only leaves either the vessel or Kris. And given how Kris' skin is completly different to the one our mystery character posseses, this really only leaves one other character: the vessel.

But wait... If I'm saying the vessel is the unused huma, as well as Chara... Then that means the unused human IS Chara too??? But their skin and hair is completly different!!

Yeah, and that's because Chara in geno, looks like someone who either lacks ANY sunlight, or just a corpse. My theory is that Chara, before dying, looked similarly to the unuswd human, but with cheeks also there. Why aren't the supposed DR Chara's cheeks visible? Well, why isn't their mouth visible? Even Kris has their mouth visible. It's almost like they don't have any facial features... Like the vessel, their goner version!

And what name does the unused human have in the files? CHARA. However, Frisk is named mainchara in the files, so the "Chara" here could very easily be short for character, so it isn't as decisive as it may seem.

On how did Chara manage to become a goner I am completly unaware. There are so many things we don't know about and this post is already getting long enough as is so I'll save it for another day. Maybe.

But now that I may or may not have uncovered the vessel's secret identity, this really only leaves one person who the alternate iteration of Frisk could possibly be: Kris!

PART V. KRIS IS FRISK!

I'd start with the fact that they share the same hair color and shin color, but everyone already knows that. How about some other things instead.

Pianpian is the name of the song that plays in the hidden Kris dreemurr page. It's... An interesting name, because Pian is an anagram for pain, but also piano without the letter o. Which is EXACTLY how you get from Frisk to Kris, as Kris is just an anagram of Frisk without the letter F.

Second, while it may seem difficult to know what Kris' morals are at first hand, I think a very important piece of evidence is their relationship with Susie, because they very clearly love her. This isn't just me pulling my shipper headcannons, there's actually a lot of in-game evidence that's actually quite solid.

...Again, read my posts on this topic.

But what does this have to do with Frisk? Well, everything! Because the way Kris deals with Susie is the way players are encouraged to do the pacifist route, but to an extent where it's flaws are shown. While you CAN fight most monsters until they spare you, this won't get you the yellow, happier descriptions in the credits of UT. Players are encouraged to ACT, instead. Kris, for whatever reason, remains quiet as to not alert their mother and punish, or perhaps even expel her. However, when they do ACT in new girl, they do it in a very flirty and natural way, very similar to how Frisk acts in UT. The reason I say this is flawed is becuase if this took place in the real world, they should have told Toriel about the situation, because if they didn't, Susie wouldn't have changed. Asriel even tells Frisk about this: "Not everything can be resolved by being nice."

...What I'm trying to say is, Kris wouldn't be this interested in Susie if they were a hateful person.

Other things:

When you lecture Ruddin, Kris will talk about the importance of kindness.

Both Frisk and Kris can play the piano.

Kris is a natural flirter, as seen with Head Hathy.

Kris in the entire weird route is stated to be very different as to how they actually are.

They wear a bandage and a pencil, almost like a more evolved version of the stick.

Kris has red eyes. When Frisk is possesed by Chara they have red eyes, but if this type of eyes are natural, then it is entirely possible that Frisk ALSO has red eyes.

In the 2023 aniversary newsletter Frisk is mistakenly referred to as Kris. So Toby can't even tell them apart LMAO.

Bratty says that when Kris was younger, they wanted to hang out with the big kids, and they jokingly said that if they went to buy some burgers Kris would be able to do so. Kris actually did exactly that and still got rejected. Poor kid...

What I'm trying to say is that Kris may actually be a lot nicer than we may have thought. Them being a prankster doesn't actually affect wheter they're hurtful or not. In fact, in the normal route in chapter 2, in one of the electric barrier puzzles, Noelle can activate the barrier in the exact spot Kris was in, and she will note how Kris seems hurt by her prank, meaning that Kris doesn't actually like pranks that they think are dangerous (not anymore?).

But, I wouldn't be honest with you if I didn't PROPERLY adress the counterevidence, even finding some of my own (people should do this more often).

First, their handedness.

Kris' handedess seems to be ambidextrous, as they use their left hand in ch 1 ending and their right hand in ch 2 ending.

What about Frisk's handedness...? At first, they seem to be left-handed, as their slash sprite is always the same, and would make more sense if it came from a left hand. But if you remember when Toriel was going through the spike puzzle, Toriel grabs Frisk's hand with her right hand. But Frisk alternates between their left hand and right one. Even when they grab the umbrella the exact same thing happens. It isn't a bug, Toriel's hand is consistent, it's Frisk's hands that aren't. I think that if Toby doesn't care that much about keeping Frisk dominant with one hand then we shouldn't either. I mean, the slash sprite always being the same could easly be explained by Toby not wanting to add another one because it would look weird. Tldr Frisk is probably ambidextrous because Toby doesn't care, at least not anymore in UT's final release.

So! That's everything, right?

No... Because I still have to tackle Sans' relationship with Frisk, as I kind of just recontextualized it in it's entirety.

PART VI. UNDERSTANDING SANS

So why does Sans hate Frisk so much? Why does he hate making promises? I mean, "don't forget" is a promise too, implying that he too, hated making that promise.

Well, for starters, I believe that Toriel asking him to protect the next human is not theo ONLY reason Sans didn't attack them. He made the mysterious promise to not forget Kris and their friends, which in turn meant that he couldn't forget about Frisk either, and their memories of being a good person.

Well, he does mention that they don't know it feels, knowing that one day everything will be reset. So is it possible that Kris will or has reset Deltarune? Perhaps, but I would like to point out something slightly less outlandish for the sake of this post.

His infamous line: "kids like you should be buring in hell" gains some interesting implications when you remember what "Hell" is associated with in Deltarune: The Roaring. After all, Jevil refers to it as "HELL'S ROAR", and Ralsei, when describing the roaring asks: "Is this your idea of paradise" wording which definetly will become very important later in the game.

After all, why WOULD Sans try to leave his homeworld? What catastrophe would make him leave, if not the Roaring or worse? And, why WOULD Sans say this to Frisk? Could it be, that he finds the idea of Frisk suffering in the calamity that is Hell's Roar? But that could only happen if...

Kris consciously helped bring or directly brought Hell itself to Deltarune.

How???? It directly contradicts EVERYTHING that I've been trying to say about Frisk! ...Right?

Well, the Roaring seems to be an allegory to something very interesting: letting yourself be consumed by fiction. So let's think, why would Frisk, or better said Kris, do this at all?

Well, if it HAD to be ONE reason in particular, it would be the same reason they climbed Mt. Ebott: because nobody loved them they way they are. Or at the very least, they THOUGHT so.

This question of seemingly not knowing if anybody loves Kris for the way they are is one that's been directly building up in the new girl page in the sweepstakes, particularly when Susie says that if Kris dissapeared, Toriel would be happy, and then Kris says something unexpected that Noelle doesn't hear. It also further connects Kris to Frisk and Chara, and maybe even the other six fallen humans. Of course, I DO belive that at least their family DOES love them for the way they are, at least to some extent, as well as Rudy and Noelle. Also, Susie is friends with Kris, not the player, because we can be the worst person imaginable and Susie doesn't care because she's not OUR friend, she's Kris', as them saving her is much more important than whatever we do in Chapter 1, at least as of now. Again, it's just that Kris THINKS they don't. But... Why?

Well, it could be anything from Kris hiding something from their friends that completly changes their view to US controlling them, making them feel like their friends don't love THEM. However, Frisk isn't noted to be upset in the pacifist route, so I don't think they mind if we do what they want, after all, they DO influence or ACTs. Instead, what if us controlling Kris makes their friends FEEL like they AREN'T their friend?

To this I... Do not know. There are so, SOO many possible plot points that it would just be too much for this post. So I'll leave it here. If you have any gripes with this theory, please let me know as long as you aren't borderline hateful. I do genuenly want to improve, even if it means acknowledging that my theory is objectivly bad, or something. But if you DO think I'm onto something PLEASE like and share, this is like the very first ACTUAL theory I've posted, so please let me know!

[notademon10]

IT IS OFFICIAL: I AM DELAYING KRUSIE PART 3, IN FAVOR OF ANOTHER THEORY WHICH WILL HELP MY POINT IN THE LATEST KRUSIE ENTRY

I hope you understand❤️

This will be the best theory I've ever made.

UPDATE: THIS THEORY ISN'T SUPER KRUSIE DRIVEN, SO... YEAH.

[notademon10]

People are saying that I'm disrespecting Toby's intent over this LMAO 💀

Toby fox has never said, not fucking once, that Undertale and Deltrarune are unrelated, only that it isn't a sequel, and that DR is its own world.

[notademon10]

I hate it when people say "haha guys what if Toby debunked x ship wouldn't that be funny", because it's like taking something compelling to quite a few people and then throwing it away for no reason other that it being "funny"?????

[notademon10]

What i'm gonna say is unhinged, but I secretly made a FULL family tree of ALL of my cats, it spans over TEN generations and I am in the process of adding more, i do NOT regret ANYTHING.

[notademon10]

STILL AM!!!

May not look like it, but im working on krusie part 3 rn. Gonna be different than the last 2 though.