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fizz-pop-thwip · 4 days ago

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I do agree with some of your points. However, I think something you are missing here is, characters have flaws. And those flaws are important to who they are and what they stand for, excusing them is doing a character no service. Tony IS guilty of several of these listed but that doesn't make him a terrible character it just makes him an complex one. (that's the opinion I hold anyway, clearly not others.)

Some of these arguments are just petty ones made at Tony because of an unreasonable hatred but some DO have some genuine base behind them that I'd like to note myself.

1- Misogyny

I do NOT think its nitpicking whatsoever to say his misogynistic jokes are bad. I agree that it doesn't make him overall a terrible person and is rather a reflection of the time he grew up in. Part of me feels like it would almost be unrealistic for him to not make a joke like that every now and again, considering his playboy persona. We also know based on the plenty of screen time he has, that he would never act on something like that or even something close again though, hardly nitpicking and really is a genuine critique.

2- Peter Parker

Now, I will make you laugh. Even if they were joking around, it was still very much a dangerous battle. Sure, nobody was trying to seriously harm each other because of their history and respect for each other, yet a man still lost his ability to walk. Accidents happen. (I'll come back to that later.)

Tony did manipulate Peter into the fight. Not maliciously I suppose but very much still did. I don't think peter WANTED to say no, to Tony. Based on the info he was given I think he very much wanted to help his idol but Tony showing up to his home and not telling peter about the real reasoning behind the fight and what was really going on, is a VERY dirty play.

He didn't LIE about the information sure but he very clearly withholds the full story, its obvious that peter doesn't have a full understanding. Peter wouldn't have helped him if he really knew what the accords were about and that on its own is text book manipulation. E.g. Cambridge Dictionary: "controlling someone or something to your own advantage, often unfairly or dishonestly"

"Steve Rogers: Look kid. There's a lot going on here that you don't understand. Peter Parker: Mr. Stark said you'd say that. Wow. He also said to go for your legs. Steve Rogers: Stark tell you anything else? Peter Parker: That you're wrong. You think you're right. That makes you dangerous."

He only has been told about how to fight, and vaguely why hes fighting through the lens of Tony alone. He wasn't provided with the accords to read though himself, hes just helping his idol take down 'insane captain America' like tony frames it.

Again, Tony did have Peter in mind, he didn't want him to get hurt, he put him on the bench when it got to much but it wasn't okay to take a - 14 year old, by the way, not 16- kid to Germany, lie to his guardian and put him in danger even if he thinks he can handle it. Although I will say, he did a much better job of trying to keep peter safe in homecoming, even if he lacked communication.

3- Sokovia accords

It doesn't seem like you support his choice to support the accords but I have heard this argument before from other people so I'll note-

Steve fought for his right to fight for good. That's why he took the serum, that's why hes Captain America, that's why he joined the Avengers. Because it puts him in the position to be able to help as many people as possible, the best he can. Tony wants to sign the accords to protect the team (and his own sudden guilt complex), Steve doesn't because it stops his ability to help as best he can and most likely be forced to do bad things under the governments. Steve is not, and will never be compliant in something like that. I understand Tony's motivations, I do, but I cannot find justification in signing up to government control because you have the realization that there have been casualties.

Having repercussions to things like Ultron (which even if it was an accident, Tony did create.) or having MUCH more intense training before letting people on the field is important, but the government - the very same one who tried to nuke NYC- is not the right people to do so. ESPECIALLY not Ross

4- Steve disabling Rhodey?

Steve was only forced to 'escalate' since, Tony was trying to- for lack of a better word- oppress, on command of Ross, sure but still willingly done. His goal was to get Steve to comply to the accords and bring in Bucky who would have been shoved in some kind of mental facility and prison for the rest of his days. You think Steve's going to roll over, show his belly? He fights when necessary, this was necessary.

Everyone (minus peter) was there of their own volition and understanding of whats happening. There are 2 sides to a fight, the both fought willingly. And then to say Rhodey is Steve's fault is MAD considering it wasn't even someone on his team who shot him, it was Vision who was too worried about his boyfriend to pay attention.

Anyway, all love no hate. Thats all I have to cover, I would say some of the arguments you debunked are so ridiculous they seem made up but I understand how it feels to have someone shit all over your character with unrealistic claims 💔

So I wanted to point out the usual nonsenses coming from Tony Stark antis and luckily enough, one of them made a post quoting pretty much most of their popular "arguments" (if I can refer to them as such), so let's take a look at this user’s main points and see how solid they are.

"Let's talk about the horrible shit Tony has done in the MCU"

Please keep in mind the "horrible shit" term all along during your reading.

"MCU Tony has mortared a city full of civilians"

Okay so first point and it literally never happened. USA's government did that to Wanda and Pietro's town, not Tony so I hope it wasn't too painful to pull this nonsense out of your ass.

"Been a complete dick to all of his teammates"

Oh no... he was mean to Steve and his coworkers during their first movie ? What a complete tragedy, what a heartless monster. Please stop the violins, otherwise I might weep.

"Made multiple misogynistic comments about women mainly Natasha (looking at you prima nocta scene)"

Okay so you gave only one example to back this up and it's when he was obviously joking with his friends. Even if that joke may be in very bad taste, that doesn't make him a horrible person like you tried to demonstrate, you're just nitpicking.

"Manipulated a 16 year old into getting into a war with his former teammates"

A) "a war" please don't make me laugh. For most of the only fight Peter take part in, both sides were joking with the other while fighting and weren't even fighting seriously, they were just trying to incapacitate each other. Things only get messy after Tony ordered Peter to step back.

B) Tony didn't manipulate shit. He hid no vital informations to Peter and while bringing a 16 year old to an arrest was indeed a stupid decision, he knew Steve wouldn't harm him and that Peter was strong, competent and equipped enough to deal with him.

"Thought he was completely justified for trying to kill Bucky for something Bucky did unwillingly cuz he was fucking brainwashed"

Why the fuck are you lying ? At no point Tony justified himself for this. He tried during the whole Civil War plot to ease things with Steve and this even after his best friend got disabled for life because Steve escalated the situation at the airport, only to learn then that his friend lied to him all along about his parents' death.

At this point Tony just didn't care anymore and while he was obviously wrong for trying to kill Bucky, it's not like he had no understandable reasons to go after him. Brainwashed or not, most people would try to obliterate their parents' murderer if he stood right in front of them.

"Repeatedly mocked Bruce Banner who was filled with self loathing and even tried to kill himself because of how much he hated being The Hulk"

Firstly he joked with him, not about him. Secondly, Tony was the only one who respected Bruce from the start and never treated him like some ticking bomb ready to explode.

"Created most of the villains in the MCU (Mysterio and Co., Vulture, Aldrich Killian, The Maximoff Twins, Justin Hammer, The Flag-Smashers etc)"

Okay, where do I even begin on that.

Quentin Beck was a narcissistic asshole who got mad because his boss called his invention "B.A.R.F", that and Tony tossing it aside because this tech was way too expansive for its very limited applications. So not Tony's fault if Beck had an ego more fragile than a soap bubble.

Hammer tried to destroy Tony's image and Stark Industries first, so Tony defended himself by revealing he crippled a man by trying to replicate his tech. Hammer fucked around and found out, not Tony's fault if he's an hypocritical idiot.

Concerning the Flag Smashers, the reason they became terrorists wasn't caused by Tony bringing back half of the universe, it was due to the Global Repatriation Council's disastrous resources management.

About Toomes, Tony had no prior knowledge of the contract he signed with NY and even if he did, leaving dangerous alien tech in the hands of random people is quite a moronic idea, as evidenced by what they did with this tech for years. Not Tony's fault if Toomes is delusional and sucks at his job.

Aldrich Killian ? Be fucking real, he became a super-villain just because Tony ignored him, an archetypal greasy-haired nerd who literally drools as he talks, for a pretty chick on New Year's Eve.

Like obviously, when a serial killer stab someone to death, the most logical reaction is to blame those who assemble knives at the factory rather than the murderer himself, makes perfect sense to me.

The Maximoff Twins, my god this argument again... Yeah let's blame the guy who designed and sold weapons to his government rather than, oh I don't know, the fucking guys who used them against civilians ??

"Which also means he's also had some hand in the deaths caused by all these characters"

Literally none of the characters you quoted became super-villains because of him.

"Created Ultron"

He intended to create a security system against other alien invasions and it resulted in a genocidal robot, which only happened because Wanda mindraped him some hours before. Tony is responsible for Ultron's creation, Wanda for what he became.

And I don't want to see anybody whining in my mentions that he already planned to design Ultron prior to her mindraping him, not when she had this fucking grin after seeing Tony taking the Mind Stone with him.

Let alone when she threw this line, later in the movie : I saw Stark’s fear. I knew it would control him, make him self destruct.

She knew letting him take the Stone would cause something awful that might also kill him and she used her powers to make him even more paranoid. She's responsible for Ultron going from "A suit of armor around the world" to "Genocidal Murder Bot", not Tony.

"Thought it was a good idea to have a newly created AI be exposed to The Mind Stone which caused Ultron to kill JARVIS and go rogue

A) Which again wouldn't have happened if Wanda hadn't mindraped him the same day.

B) He didn't consciously exposed Ultron to it, the Mind Stone corrupted the AI on its own, something Tony and Bruce had no way to predict.

C) Still not his fault anyway. Ultron is sentient, he takes his own decisions. Tony being his "father" doesn't change anything to this state of fact.

"Profited off of war by making weapons of mass destruction and selling them"

Something he's spent over a decade to make amend for, notably by closing his weapons division and dedicating his life and resources to helping people and saving the world.

"Bought illegally obtained vibranium stolen directly from Wakanda by Klaue"

False too. All we know is that they met each other at the time Tony was still designing weapons ; and that Klaue told him he was looking for something new. At no point was it implied Tony illegally bought vibranium from him.

"Technically responsible for more vibranium being stolen from Wakanda by Klaue due to Ultron"

This vibranium was already stolen by Klaue when Ultron met him.

"Being responsible for everyone who died in Sokovia's death because he made Ultron"

So following your reasoning, I guess Jeffrey Dahmer's parents are responsible for every murder their son committed from his own free-will ? Did I get that right ?

"Being unwilling to help Steve and the others fix the Blip cuz muh daughter"

My god, how dare he... being against playing with time and rather trying to accept what happened while taking care of his family.

And this when we know screwing up with time can cause world-ending events.

Truly a proof of how horrible of a human being he is, indeed.

Btw I like how you ignored that Tony changed his mind and helped them afterwards.

"Supported The Sokovia Accords which need I remind you all Tony is technically responsible for The Accords being made because A. he's the one who killed Wanda's parents (blah blah blah, a lot of false attributions later...) causing her to kill Crossbones and a building full of people"

Still isn't him who dropped those mortar shells on her house. Just like it's not him who pushed Crossbones to go suicide-bombers, wrote the Sokovia Accords and incited 119 countries to sign them.

"and B. he is literally responsible for what happened to Sokovia BECAUSE HE MADE ULTRON"

Already answered to this shit, let's continue.

"Referring to Wanda as "a weapon of mass destruction" in Civil War"

Lmao because she isn't ? No one forced Wanda to join a terrorist organization, pal. Just like no one pushed her to act as a weapon of mass destruction, by using her powers to send Hulk on a rampage across Johannesburg or by enslaving Westview.

"meanwhile HE is the REASON SHE has her powers in the first place"

Sure, Tony whispered in her ear every night to go serve as a guinea pig for Nazis in order to get her revenge on him. I forgot this part of Wanda's backstory, silly me.

"Falsely imprisoning the heroes that didn't sign The Accords because he's a cunt"

Tony don't have any power or authority to imprison people, and the heroes he stopped got incarcerated because they indeed broke the law, you jackass.

"Being technically responsible for all the deaths caused by Wanda in Wandavision and DSATMOM because if he didn't kill her parents with his mortar..."

I don't think you know what "technically" means.

"then her and Pietro wouldn't have went to Hydra thus not getting their powers from The Mind Stone"

You know what would have actually prevented all the deaths Wanda caused ? Her not willingly joining Nazis to get her powers and going on a murder spree.

"And you are probably thinking "But he sacrificed himself at the end of Endgame !""

To save the whole universe indeed. That and quite a few other things, such as :

Outright refusing to help terrorists and getting tortured as a result.

Risking his life to save Yinsen.

Saving Afghans villagers from terrorists.

Saving Pepper and SHIELD's agents from Obadiah Stane.

Actively saving people on a daily basis, and this for a decade.

Developing a shit ton of armors to protect people more efficiently.

Saving New York and the world overall from Chitauris.

Stopping Killian from taking over the USA.

Curing Pepper from the Extremis treatment.

Designing Veronica with Bruce.

Fighting Hulk to protect Johannesburg.

Saving the world once again, alongside the Avengers.

Awarding promising students with the funds to develop their own projects and inventions.

Granting his tech to Peter and designing for him two suits that allowed him to save many lives.

Saving Stephen's life from Ebony Maw.

Helping the Avengers to travel in other timelines.

"Let me ask you this : If Strange had hold Tony that the only way to defeat Thanos is if Tony sacrificed himself would Tony do it"

It's literally what happened during Endgame, you fucking bozo. What do you think was the meaning of this scene ?

And it's not like it was something new, he was always ready to die for others' sake, right from the start, did you even watched the first Avengers movie ?

No wait, even better : Have you at least watched the beginning of his first solo movie ?

I wasn't expecting anything from Tony antis but sucking that hard at watching a movie is quite impressive ngl.

"Bottom line is MCU Wanda sucks and Tony Stark sucks"

Yeah no shit, that's pretty easy to say when you're making up lies to support your hate boner.

So in conclusion, this dude has no idea of what he's talking about and neither does Tony antis in general for using these bs as arguments.

#excuse any spelling mistakes pls 🙏😔#steve rogers #tony stark #peter parker #bucky barnes #mcu #captain america civil war #cacw #spiderman #ironman #captain america #sokovia accords

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