unpopularfanopinion

[unpopularfanopinion]

🇺🇸if you are planning on voting in person, and you sometimes use a mobility aid, BRING IT WITH YOU. the lines are historically long. if you do not have a mobility aid, consider bringing something like a folding stool.🇺🇸

[unpopularfanopinion]

Sometimes being the mum who exists in fandom spaces leads to awkward, even concerning, conversations. Such as the one which happened this morning. The mum of my daughter's best mate asked me if one of their mutual friends had sent her a specific message. This message was a link to a fic on ao3, if this had been a G rated fic this conversation would not have happened. It was not G rated. It was an E rated fic. Our kids aren't even 12 yet. As it happens, both of our kids have their internet access heavily locked down and monitored. They have phones because of how their school manages homework. The mutual friend, however, is not so monitored. Or she wasn't, given what her mum found she's about to be. This kid had found a fandom, joined it, and found it chock full of antis. The fic had been sent to her by one of them as an example of the sort of terrible people out there who need to be harassed and attacked because they wrote a smutty story.

Someone thought it was appropriate to send written porn to an 11 year old to encourage her to attack the author.

This resulted in a very awkward conversation where I had to explain to multiple horrified parents the anti culture that is becoming so prevalent. The fact that there are adults who use that purity message to groom kids. The way they escalate and how it bleeds into real life. One parent told me she'd wondered why her 14 year old was suddenly concerned about the two year age gap between her parents. The more I explained, the more absolutely ludicrous it sounded and the more baffled these poor mums looked. More than once I was told "but the characters aren't real, it's really weird but it isn't hurting anyone". Which is the point. The fictional situation isn't hurting anyone. The person who sent porn to an 11 year old is.

Was the person who sent it the author? Doubtful, that thing was tagged in the extreme. Was the person who sent it an adult? Almost certainly. The parent who's child received the original message has found more concerning stuff and gone to the police, but from the language the person doing the sending was in the US. We aren't. Did my daughter receive it? No, she isn't interested in that fandom and therefore wouldn't have bothered with it. Is this the fault of the author? No, they didn't send the link, they didn't ask to be harassed, they wrote a story and put it on ao3, the website created in response to rampant censorship and designed to allow for all kinds of fiction. Is this the fault of the parents? Partially, they should have been looking at their daughter's internet use and clocked what was happening sooner. Is this the fault of the child? No, she's 11, she didn't know better.

This has been a difficult day. Multiple parents have had their eyes opened to parts of fandom culture they had no idea existed. And the thing of it is, they aren't concerned about the why of anti rhetoric. They don't care about the adults writing about teens or rape or incest or torture or any of the rest, because they looked at the clearly tagged and rated fics and figured that it worked the same as a warning on any streaming service. They only cared because some utterly vile individual decided to expose their child to something this girl might not have looked at for years.

Proshippers did not cause what I have spent afternoon helping several sets of parents navigate. Antis did. Normally I'm fairly quiet about the whole debate because I just want to get on with my life and share my experiences. Today I got dragged into that mess in my every day life and the adults in the equation didn't react the way Antis like to think they would. They didn't condemn the author. They condemned the anti who shared the work with a preteen.

[unpopularfanopinion]

is shipping two minor/child/teen characters together weird?

yes

yes but only if you're making nsfw of it

no

no but only if the shipper is also a minor

depends

some other answer

[unpopularfanopinion]

Back during the worst of the VLD fandom and antis hating on Sheith Josh Keaton(Va for Shiro) told the fandom to chill and stop harassing Sheith shippers and learn what pedophilia actually was. The antis immediately turned on him, harassing him and threatening to report him to CPS as a danger to his children and have them taken away.

So not only would antis not listen to a creator saying “Don’t harass people” they would in fact turn on them.

How many antis do you think would still say "respect the creator's wishes" if the creator said "I don't want antis harassing me or my fans"?

None of them, I'm sure.

[unpopularfanopinion]

Get rid of the myth that being a proshipper is about your comfort level with dark/"illegal" ships.

People posting large age gaps without a CW first is the main reason I unfollow people. They are solidly a no for me.

Proshipping is about your comfort level with people bullying the shippers.

[unpopularfanopinion]

[unpopularfanopinion]

Except no I didn’t agree that Ao3 allows and hosts something the average lay person would consider to be child porn. Because to the average layperson when they hear the term “child porn” their mind goes to the horrific sexual abuse suffered by real children that is then photographed and/filmed for sale. They are not thinking about words on paper or screen, nor are they thinking about lines on paper for drawing.

When people go around attempting to claim that Ao3 hosts “child porn” they are attempting to pull the same scare tactic conservatives use to attack books like Genderqueer, It’s Perfectly Normal, and even A Court of Night and Fury. It’s an attempt to anger and scare people into doing what they want and conform to their preferences and personal comfort zone.

What the OP and everyone demanding Ao3 restrict content need to learn is that their personal comfort level, and their personal feelings of disgust are not the absolute guide to morality, decency, and legality.

you know i have never heard a convincing arguement as to why AO3 should not moderate the content that is posted to their website and i think a lot of the arguement against moderation on AO3 boils down to, terminally online people thinks community moderation is the same as government censorship and personally sending the cops to someone’s house to arrest them irl/

[unpopularfanopinion]

Those aren’t hosted on AO3’s servers. They are embedded images that are hosted elsewhere and linked to. If any of them meet the requirements for obscenity the prosecutors will be contacting the actual hosting site. Not Ao3. So again anything actually hosted on Ao3 will be subject to the Miller test, not the two-prong test regarding visual depictions of minors.

you know i have never heard a convincing arguement as to why AO3 should not moderate the content that is posted to their website and i think a lot of the arguement against moderation on AO3 boils down to, terminally online people thinks community moderation is the same as government censorship and personally sending the cops to someone’s house to arrest them irl/

[unpopularfanopinion]

I and many other people get angry at the people going around claiming that Ao3 hosts child pornography for a very simple reason. These people are lying. It has been explained to them what CSEM is and how the fictional written works on Ao3 do not count as CSEM. But those people who want to censor Ao3 do not care and at times have in fact referred to the fictional content on Ao3 as CSEM. They do this because they know CSEM and child pornography are highly emotionally charged terms that fill people with disgust and anger and make them likely to agree with them. It's lying, misinformation, and emotional manipulation and that should in fact cause anger.

Now good job on actually looking at the relevant laws regarding obscenities as those are the ones that would apply to Ao3. I do need to make a few corrections about your understanding of those laws.

First of all Section 1466A of Title 18 is not applicable to anything hosted directly on Ao3's servers. I am going to quote part of it and bold it to help you understand why.

"Section 1466A of Title 18, United State Code, makes it illegal for any person to knowingly produce, distribute, receive, or possess with intent to transfer or distribute visual representations, such as drawings, cartoons, or paintings that appear to depict minors engaged in sexually explicit conduct and are deemed obscene"

Did you get it? Ao3 hosts written words, not visual images. Anything that Ao3 hosts is only going to have the 3-pronged Miller Test applied, not the lesser 2-prong test.

Although the 2-prong test for visual images doesn't apply to Ao3 I would like to point out that just meeting the conditions of one prong is not enough for a work to be deemed criminally obscene. Take a look at some of the gross, sexual things that have been depicted on South Park featuring their 4th grade protagonists. Or this BL manga available at the New York Public Library that features high school boys engaging in BDSM pratices https://nypl.overdrive.com/media/1181949 And if there's been any legal challenges on either of them on the basis of obscenity I haven't heard of them.

And just like with the visual works, in written word just because a work meets one part of the Miller test if it fails to meet either of the other two prongs it will not be considered criminally obscene. And again we have historical precedence that demonstrates just because work contains depictions of pedophilia, underage sex, CSA, etc . . . that does not make it obscene. We have Lolita, Stephen King's It, The Lovely Bones and who knows how many others because regular books don't have Ao3's tagging system. Goodreads has a list of books about pedophiles(both fiction and non-fiction but that relies of readers so might not be complete) https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/40126.Books_about_Pedophiles

Is it possible that some of the fics on Ao3 tagged with pedophilia would meet the legal definition of obscenity? yeah sure I guess. The same holds true to any fic labeled explicit regardless of whether it's het, queer, xeno etc. Are all of them going to meet that standard? Not a chance. I feel like you and a number of others are really underestimating just how high a bar it is for something to be deemed legally obscene in the US.

And now here's the really fun part. Let's say some really overzealous prosecutor decided to to trawl through all 11,000 fics on Ao3 tagged with pedophilia(actually let's be nice and cut it down to just the ones rated explicit as they're more likely to cross the threshold and that cuts about 4000 off the list) and finds a couple they think meet the criteria for criminal obscenity. Ao3 and the OTW still will not be the ones in trouble for it.

That's because of Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act of 1996, often referred as the 26 words that created the internet.

"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."

So even if some prosecutor wanted to prosecute a fic on Ao3 as obscene that would be going against the individual author not Ao3 or OTW as a whole. Ao3 might get in trouble if they refuse to remove the fic while prosecution is happening, or if they refuse to comply with a subpoena to provide information about the author. But not really for the fic being there to begin with.

Now I am going to address the tags you included because i believe the point I was making flew entirely over your head.

My point was that a fictional story does not cause harm simply by existing. In order for a fictional story to have any impact on anyone(positive or negative) there has to be a deliberate, conscious decision to read it. A textbook that sits on a shelf gathering dust doesn't teach anyone anything. And an unread fic that's sitting on a list alongside hundreds of other fics doesn't cause anyone any harm.

you know i have never heard a convincing arguement as to why AO3 should not moderate the content that is posted to their website and i think a lot of the arguement against moderation on AO3 boils down to, terminally online people thinks community moderation is the same as government censorship and personally sending the cops to someone’s house to arrest them irl/

[unpopularfanopinion]

Literally no-one is arguing that Ao3 should allow any and all content including actual illegal CSEM. It’s been pointed out numerous times to the people calling for censorship of Ao3 that putting CSEM on the site violates the ToS and will be deleted.

The argument is between

Group A: Ao3 should continue as it has hosting and allowing all fiction legal under US law.(keeping the status quo)

Group B: Ao3 should ban certain topics in fiction based on my personal assumptions about those topics and how they are depicted and why someone would write(which is always because they’re bad people)

you know i have never heard a convincing arguement as to why AO3 should not moderate the content that is posted to their website and i think a lot of the arguement against moderation on AO3 boils down to, terminally online people thinks community moderation is the same as government censorship and personally sending the cops to someone’s house to arrest them irl/

[unpopularfanopinion]

let's stop using the word puritan for fandoms okay

Hi Anon :)

I'm guessing you're referring to this post I made a few days ago about the pro ship/anti ship discourse?

Why does it bother you if I use this word specifically? (I'm honestly asking, not trying to pick a fight or anything.)

According to Oxford Languages Dictionary, these are the definitions of the word:

Apart from the actual English Protestant group from a few centuries ago (which would then be capitalized if specifically referred to), it means the following:

“A person with censorious moral beliefs, especially about self-indulgence and sex.”

If there's another word for forbidding or trying to suppress or prohibit certain media content (it doesn't matter if it's books/stories, news, films, etc.) besides “censorship” feel free to use it interchangeably, but I'm not sure there is.

Possible or already existing censorship, while more important in a news-related context, is still an incredibly important topic regarding other content, such as books and stories, published online on sites like tumblr, AO3, Wattpad, FanFiction.net, etc. The sheer amount of stories on there is impossible for actual humans to filter through, which means that algorithms would need to be set up to automatically delete stories when certain criteria are met. Any form of automated algorithm can and will be faulty, however, which means that even stories that wouldn't theoretically “have to be deleted” (according to the AI-powered algorithm, at least) will slip through the cracks and get deleted without warning.

This happened before to Wattpad and FanFiction.net. There was a massive, and I mean massive purge of stories in 2002 and 2012. Only this year, it happened to Wattpad, too. A lot of authors and readers lost their stories immediately, without warning.

The US, for example, has a bill called KOSA (“Kids Online Safety Act”). It works under the disguise (I am absolutely sure that there are some 100% valid points in the bill, though, I am not from the US and have no legal background, so feel free to correct me) of child safety, but is pretty much an overreaching government censorship bill (again, I'm going off of people who know way more about the legalities of all of this). I'll quote someone from a reddit thread that addresses the consequences of the bill.

“It is technically a violation of free speech and the 1st amendment, but that's not gonna stop them. This bill would require that internet users upload their government ID to access any site, and state attorney generals could sue to remove any site that contains content deemed “harmful” to children. This would include fanfiction and fanfiction sites.”

I hope you immediately see the issue and danger of having to upload an ID to be allowed to merely access any website. Not to only view certain things (for example, I wouldn't have any issues if you have to verify your age via ID if, let's say you wanna order cigarettes or alcohol online or something) but to simply view the content and information on the page.

“I have to mention that this bill is dangerous for more reasons than just censoring fan fiction. The government will be able to censor ANYTHING - such as abortion info, LGBTQ+ resources, and any content relating to protesting or organizing. They will also be able to ID you if you search for any of these topics. And VPNs will not work.”

This. This right there is where puritan beliefs and movements get us, long-term and short-term. It has happened before, and it will happen again if we do NOT use our critical thinking and are able to differentiate between written, fictional content, and real life. The US isn't the only country that is considering implementing such laws, Canada has something similar going on with “Bill S-210”.

Internet censorship, which often starts/started with banning not only certain political content, but also under the guise of “protecting the public” is an issue in a LOT of countries and endangers the safety of various groups. China, Palestine, Indonesia, Armenia, Saudi Arabia, etc., Turkmenistan, North Korea (strongly assumed), Turkmenistan, etc. for example.

I know that you only criticized the word “puritan” and I am completely going above what you probably meant, Anon, (and I hope you don't feel attacked or think I put words in your mouth) but I hope to at least make you consider my point of the slippery slope and dangers of the gateway puritan censorship issue. It often starts with the government's reasoning of protecting their citizens or children from something, when long-term and historically speaking, that never ever leads to something good and sets society back by a mile regarding the acceptance of certain issues or free information gathering on various topics and safe exploring (of, for example, sexual topics, or learning about their own sexuality, etc.) for minors.

In my opinion and experience, it's better they figure out what they might like or not like in the safety of stories. Sure, minors are impressionable, and mature content should 100% be tagged as such, including potential trigger warnings, but if done right by the author, it can also educate. Or deliberately show unsafe behavior — which requires media literacy and critical thinking, which can ONLY be gained by consuming the media and analyzing afterwards.

That does not mean that I condone 12-year-olds reading stuff about incest, bestiality, (all in a fictional setting!), or whatever is out there. Not at all! BUT: it's the parents' responsibility to be in charge of teaching their children about internet safety, and perhaps even monitoring (to a healthy extent) what they consume and open discussions about what their children consume.

Authors are nobody's parents but their own children's (if they have any), so it is NOT their responsibility to take care of that. Tagging properly and warning the audience about the content, however, is. No discussion. But this is not just important for the protection of minors, but the mental well-being of adults, too.

I'm open to discussing this topic even more. There are a LOT more nuances and valid points and concerns from both sides, so to speak, but I'll be honest: I'm from a country where the media and government swayed the public's opinion about a certain group a LOT by censoring others in the past, and it literally lead to the death of millions. So critical thinking regarding any type of censorship (even if that scale I just referred to cannot be compared at all, I am well aware of that) and being vigilant about wanting to ban certain media or content under the guise of “protecting” others is something very, very high on my personal priority list because as soon as you learn how easily stuff like this gets out of hand, even if it starts sort of innocently, makes you kind of aware and sensitizes your for a lot of stuff.

I'm sorry if my rambling is all over the place and I hope my reply is readable — English is not my first language, so please excuse it if stuff is unclear or there are any mistakes. And I'm sorry for going completely off the rails. You maybe simply took an issue with the word “puritan” itself. If that's the case, please tell me what exactly your issue with it is, maybe we can talk specifically about this topic then, and not the whole censorship debate I started just now. Maybe we're even on the same page regarding a lot of things.

Take care. 🤍

[unpopularfanopinion]

Unfortunately as long as there are people who are happy to label ships they dislike as “pedophilia” even if the characters involved are middle aged men in order to demonize the ship, and dehumanize the shippers to justify harassing them we can’t move forward.

In short the only ones blurring the lines between queer content and queer people and dangerous predatory pedophiles are the people demanding Ao3 change their content policies. All so they can wield some sort of power and control over other people in fandom. They might not be in power or in government but they absolutely do want to oppress other people even if it’s just by limiting their ability to create and share fiction. Yes it’s on a smaller scale than what governments do but it’s the same behavior and same justifications.

mfers will say "im against book banning in schools and libraries!" and then turn around and say ao3 needs to be censored

[unpopularfanopinion]

Content supporting BLM and Palestine are allowed on Ao3. It does however have to follow the rules of the archive by being transformative in nature. Characters discussing the issues, author notes stating their stances and opinions. Links to GoFundMe’s however are not allowed due to the absolute no monetizing of fanworks on Ao3 allowed. Ao3 was created to be a safe censorship free space for FANWORKS anything that is not a fanwork does not fall under what Ao3 was created to protect. Using it as a social media platform to spam slogans at people is a misuse of the service and their equipment.

mfers will say "im against book banning in schools and libraries!" and then turn around and say ao3 needs to be censored

[unpopularfanopinion]

[unpopularfanopinion]

And then when the fic gets reported and they’re told to remove the offending tags/summary they whine about “censorship@ because they don’t understand the difference between a fictional story and interaction between people.

And of course there’s the whole Ao3 being built for pro-shippers by pro-shippers so they’re breaking their own DNI’s just by being on the website

How funny is to see in the fics summaries, notes and tags: "proshippers dni, proshitters dni" on Ao3. Seriously. Isn't it against ao3 ToS? It's fucking harassment, insulting people who are proshippers.

Antis will never learn, they even can't read the rules of the sites and can't write something like that to not insult us. I noticed that they also can't write like a normal writers without weird emojis, caps lock and other weird arrangements which is not comfortable to read.