thoughtsonpoldark

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2/10 Truths on Elizabeth’s Astonishments and Humiliations

‘I cant come here again, she thought. After all this time, and now it's too late. Too late for me to come here.'

( ‘Ross Poldark’ internal Book 2 Chapter 8 )

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Just after that iconic Bluebell Scene.

Would you like them? Oh. Thank you! But I'm afraid they won't last. See, they're fading already. Cornflowers are like that.

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1/10 Truths on Elizabeth’s Astonishment and Humiliations (Bud on The Horizon)

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"Is it such an astonishment that a woman who changed her mind could change it twice?...Well, yes, perhaps it is, for it has always been an astonishment and a humiliation to me."

Elizabeth to Ross ‘Warleggan’ (Internal Book 1 Chapter 3)

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MARRYING DEMELZA-AN UNEXPECTED BLESSING. 👰‍♀️🤵‍♂️💒💍❤️

"There was the theme I wanted to express, dealing with the Ross- Elizabeth-Francis triangle...Into it also had come the engaging and vital character Demelza, who by now was intent on altering the shape of the story."

Winston Graham -'Woman Magazine' 10th December 1977

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“I’m afraid they would droop. See, they’re dropping already. Bluebells are like that.”

Elizabeth picked up her gloves and crop. I can’t come here again, she thought. After all this time, and now it’s too late. Too late for me to come here.

Book- Ross Poldark

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‘Don’t you think I remember the night we came back from the pilchard catch in Sawle? Then it was different. That was the night I fell in love with you. Instead of just the physical thing … Without emotion there’s nothing, is there. Nothing worth recalling. A shabby exercise. Thank God it’s never been that between us since.’ ‘Let us thank God we are not as other people are.’”

- The Stranger from the Sea: A Novel of Cornwall, 1810-1811 (Poldark Book 8) by Winston Graham

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When Ross Poldark married Demelza he thought that…

'It was not that he loved her but that such a course was the obvious way out.'

What is that supposed to mean? 👇

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Moving on From Elizabeth is another great essay! I look forward to your insights. I would love to know your view on the meeting between Ross and Elizabeth at Sawle Churchyard. She hated Ross, hadn’t talk for years and tells him about George’s suspicions. That is a loaded scene. Then Ross’s internal thoughts after, why he didn’t tell Demelza of the meeting, “So all must be kept secret. And all must be left unsaid.” - that whole section. Then the question of who was Valentines father.

Hi there. You are right that the Churchyard meeting is very loaded. That’s since they did not see each other for so long and there were so many issues to address. What happened that May night, who was to blame, how they feel about each other and the issue of Valentine's paternity etc.

Elizabeth’s Hatred

I think Elizabeth’s hatred of Ross was understandable on three levels. Firstly my position is that she was the victim of Acquaintance rape which can have a different reaction from the typical victim response to a stranger rape. Secondly as Ross said he did an offence against Elizabeth that night that was 'indefensible' but his failure to come back to see Elizabeth either to explain and/or apologise was an additional and ‘crowning’ insult. Thirdly by the time of this meeting she had faced turmoil over the paternity of Valentine, the deception she was having to keep up against her husband and the damage his suspicion was causing to their marriage. So the consequence of Ross’s assault add additional layers to her anger and hate.

Answers on consent or not for 9th May

It is natural that readers would play close attention to the dialogue in this scene to try and decipher if that May night was consensual. I think Winston Graham does a good Job at still not making their dialogue so blatantly conclusive. However if you have seen my post on a Judgment Of Rape (A Case of Rape or Not For Ross Poldark) I think this is largely because like Morwenna with Reverend Osborne, Elizabeth’s fight or flight response was to flop and not to resist after the first shock. That means that while Ross is able to taunt Elizabeth that she did not treat him like the devil, he was unable to suggest that she clearly participated willingly as a joint venture. Overall, aside from that Ross repeatedly made comments where he seemed to accept the blame and which she agreed with but as if to find some way to pull her in to holding some blame too, he engages in victim blaming that it was her behaviour towards him over the years before that played a part in why he acted the way he did.

Ross’s diplomacy for peace

Aside from the above it is clear that Ross wanted to foster peace with Elizabeth at this meeting as Graham wrote that ‘As he grew older his own tendencies were to try to repair the breaches that past enmities had made.’ This is consistent with him later thinking that he tried to make Elizabeth think he loved her. We know that in a way he still does but not in the way she would want him to still love her or that competes with his love for Demelza. Yet he made sure to speak with blurred lines and to say that he had done what he did that May night because he loved her and that she had been the love of his life. Ross had a good tactic there because after all her catty, angry sarcastic replies to him Graham wrote ‘She was silent. Then in a voice somewhat changed, as if his words had at last made a difference....’  It is clear that he had appealed to her vanity and her need for admiration. However this is against a backstory of Ross from at least the second book starting to question if he really did love her. (‘Was it because he loved Elizabeth – or because her knew her less?’ ‘Jeremy Poldark’  Book 2 Chapter 6 )

What stands out for me from this discussion is

1. Ross saying in respect of what he did to her and to deny that he had said something to make George suspicious about Valentine "Love can't turn to that much hate." In my post ‘Ross Poldark's Fall From Grace (A Thin line between lust and hate for Elizabeth)’ , I document that 9th May was motivated largely by Ross’s momentary anger and hate for Elizabeth rather than his love. Therefore this comment from him seems to support this and that hate was definitely in the mix but to a certain extent.

2. Despite admitting what he did was wrong Ross does not actually apologise for what he did to Elizabeth! Instead he is more defensive at times taunting and not really apologetic in tone.  

3. Ross admits that until seeing Elizabeth and how angry she was, that he did not regret it 9th May. Given all his thoughts in Warleggan about how badly he had behaved this should be an eyebrow raising comment. In a way that is almost insulting for both Demelza and Elizabeth. However based on his discussion with Demelza at the end of Warleggan it seems that Ross saw his night with Elizabeth as the very thing that made him realise that what he had with Demelza was a different league (real love) and killed the feeling of missing out with Elizabeth having realised he did not truly love her. So in a sense he didn't regret it because he viewed the incident as one that helped him in coming to that discovery once and for all- that he did not have second best.

Not telling Demelza about the Meeting

I think Ross did this due to fear and a small dose of PTSD from his 7 month separation with Demelza as a result of what happened with Elizabeth and also Demelza nearly walking out on him when he did eventually try to be honest and confront the issue of his infidelity head on. It seems that nearly losing Demelza really did affect him and he mentioned this near loss a year later in the next book. Here after meeting Elizabeth he took the view that when it came to his infidelity with her ‘ ..this was the one subject on which Demelza’s wisdom could be drawn off course by the lode star of her emotions. You could expect no other. It was a dangerous and nasty situation that he saw ahead…’  He thought ‘ once bitten, twice shy’  and that there would be ‘ hell to pay…´if what happened before happened again where they got into an argument and said things they didn’t mean. This includes his comment to Demelza about gratifying Captain McNeil which made her run up the stairs and pack her bags only for Ross to reassure her in the rain that he had not really meant what he said. Ross was genuinely fearful and thought of this in quite strong terms that this last blow up had nearly led to the break up of his marriage. So whilst he did the wrong thing here in his secrecy, on a human level, based on his fear I think it can be understood why he decided it was not worth the strife.

Not telling Demelza Valentine could be his

I think that in many ways Ross compartmentalised this paternity issue almost to the back of his mind and it is not something he is shown as dwelling over much. If so his main concern was not the truth but that whatever the case George did not have the suspicion that he, Ross was the father. Secondly, just like Demelza did on some matters with Hugh, there was a withholding of the details by Ross so as not to create another point of conflict and one that would forever cause the other person pain or even embarrassment by speaking openly and in detail about such a matter. It seemed that both Ross and Demelza at times preferred to leave things unsaid or unconfirmed while knowing that the other had an idea of the truth. This was also in relation to Demelza actually physically cheating with Hugh. Ross kind of knew this might have happened but didn’t want details- or chose not to seek it out. That is self protection and a coping mechanism. Equally Demelza kind of knew Valentine could be Ross’s but never pushed for confirmation either or to discuss this in great depth. In the later books they talk about Valentine as if they both know he might be Ross’s but don’t really say it out in the open to each other until the last book. That approach is often done when a topic is too painful to address and confirm so very explicitly. Ross’s plan to keep this secret is an awareness of the pain and hurt it would cause to Demelza and it also explains why Ross was fuming when John Treneglos visited him in ‘Bella Poldark’ and spoke as if Valentine was his son despite the risk that Demelza could have been around. Ross stated that if Demelza had heard she would have been upset and affronted by John’s suggestions. Again, even though he knew Demelza kind of knew the truth these were delicate matters where pain could be saved if withheld or these 'mistakes' was easier to cope with when treated as mere possibilities.

Also to be fair to Ross Valentine's paternity was a matter that was never and could never be confirmed, so that was another reason not to burden Demelza a painful issue that was just a possibility at that stage after he met Elizabeth. As Valentine grew up and they both saw it was more likely they began to skirt more closer to this in conversation.  

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After a stay at Heartbreak hotel you have to move on. Ross did over three and half years!

Here’s how he did it.

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It’s their wedding anniversary. 🎉🎉🎉

24th June 1787. 💍

Ross and Demelza

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On Father’s Day.

In celebration of Father’s Day.

Ross Poldark was father to Julia, Jeremy, Clowance, Isabella-Rose & Henry (aka) Harry Poldark.

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Read your essay on Ross and the rape of Elizabeth. It took me a long time to realize what an awful, selfish thing he did to the two women he loved. I began to reflect on Christmas Eve when Ross confesses to Demelza he enjoyed sex with Elizabeth. Then Demelza confesses to Ross her attempt to have sex with Malcolm. He justifies his infidelity because he had a ten year devotion to Elizabeth. It is disgusting that he can justify that night and that he can look back and say it was pleasurable. How can Ross be forgiven?

Hi there,

Thanks for checking out 'A Judgment on Rape' . It is not Ross's greatest hour and I agree that thereafter Ross's attitude around his infidelity and the manner of it was not admirable. He can be praised for confessing but actually in reality he did not really. He just did not deny it since both him and Demelza knew what he had done and specifically Ross knew that Demelza knew. As for admitting it was pleasant, there are three things I think should be noted here and the first is that to be fair to him Demelza did put him on the spot by specifically asking him about this. So it is not that he just volunteered this information. He had no choice but to answer or not. If he was to answer, it was either to lie or tell the truth. She also phrased it to him as a question put as a statement saying "..the experience itself can't hardly have been unpleasant." That means she was specifically asking about it being pleasant or not. As he answered "No....far from it.", Winston Graham did say he hesitated and was a little put out. So it was awkward for him and I believe he was trying to be honest.

On the second point of it feeling almost hurtful that Ross admitted the sex with Elizabeth was far from unpleasant and therefore pleasant, I would say that on the other hand this is not a surprise really. Elizabeth was a woman he had feelings for for a long time. Ross's anger meant that it would be satisfied by his end goal which in the heat of the moment was about control and potentially taking something that was supposed to be his greatest enemy's as well as something he had once hoped to have for himself (and up until then had resisted despite Elizabeth's flirting). He stopped listening to her and zoned out her protests, but bear in mind that he felt that after the first shock she did not resist. That likely means that he did not have a situation where he continued whilst she was still trying to fight him off. She probably had a freeze or flop response and if he was not particularly paying attention to her but even thought it was 'not so much against her will in the end', then like with any man the physical aspect and the climax of sex would have pleasured him.

As a third point. it is important to pick up what Ross goes on to imply. This is that the sex was indeed only pleasurable from a physical point of view but that it was a let down emotionally. For instance, he goes on to say "But I wasn't seeking just pleasure. I was-I suppose in fundamentals I was seeking the equal of what I'd found in you. and it was not there. For me it was not there." So that is the consolation and the thing building on that idea is what wins Demelza round and is a justified distraction from the physical pleasure Ross experience. That is of less importance than his emotions and Ross's comment afterwards suggest that his emotions were not engaged and taken in by Elizabeth from the sex had. So from that perspective it was not pleasurable enough where it mattered in order to cause him to desire Elizabeth over Demelza. In fact it helped him realise that whatever he felt for Elizabeth was not real and true love as he felt stood out for him in respect of his feelings/love for Demelza. Therefore I would say that one should not get too distracted with Ross saying/implying the sex with Elizabeth was pleasurable. His pleasure was limited in the way it should have been and which worked to Demelza's advantage in terms of the competition and preference of choice between the two women.

Regarding Ross justifying his infidelity with Elizabeth based on a 10 year devotion against Demelza's near infidelity with Captain McNeil; this does seem out of order. However it is important to remember that this was said in the throws of a heated conversation and on a basic level he had a point since there was an emotional and romantic history with Elizabeth, whereas there was none between Demelza and McNeil. That would have been premeditated revenge to hurt Ross. While Ross's was not premeditated or done to hurt her. He must win that argument. Also in his fairness Ross does show that on this point he was not a hypocrite in his response to Demelza's infidelity with Hugh Armitage. Although he did have a few sarcastic thoughts about Demelza falling for Hugh after he just smiled at her, that was at the height of his anger and shock but generally Ross understood that Demelza had had a more substantial emotional connection to Hugh in a way that she did not with McNeil and so regardless of if she had slept with Hugh he felt she had been unfaithful in spirit in recognition of her emotional investment with Hugh. In the scenes afterwards where he did not direct his angry at her, he even considered that she may have been in love with Hugh and dids not try to belittle her infidelity experience in the way that he did of her and McNeil when he referred to that as a "... tawdry little passion worked up over the wine for a cheap satisfaction between dinner and supper!" He did recognise that Hugh had taken her heart in a way and did not suggest that her thing with him was 'cheap' and unjustified as he implied his infidelity with Elizabeth was not either. In fact, whilst he admitted a devotion to Elizabeth he acknowledged Demelza had had an infatuation with Hugh where she had been blown in the wind by a hurricane which in turn was an acknowledgement of her having tried to fight it.

As for forgiving Ross, I feel that he has the benefit of a more than decent and heroic character reference outside of 9th May. More than ever Demelza's saying to Francis that "It's the balance that counts." applies here. I know that we cannot excuse Ross with the 'red mist' argument because as I covered in 'Ross Poldark's Fall from Grace' post I don't think he lost his judgment when he did what he did. I just think his hate overpowered his manners as it did when he purposefully attacked George on those two occasions. Obviously there is Ross's recommitment to Demelza, his new understanding of Demelza's worth to him and how he never expressed any further romantic interest or attraction to Elizabeth afterwards. That should help the forgiving Ross process. Also Ross is a character that followed the John 15:13 'Greater love hath no man than, that a man laid down his life for his friends.' philosophy. He was back to being a hero and was for Dwight in the following book and in various other ways in the later books including even for Valentine in the last book, who was the fruit of his sin from his infidelity. These are the ways we can forgive him but I do feel that Winston Graham introduced a love interest and infidelity for Demelza to help 'redress the balance', provide a literal 'tit for tat' so that both Ross and Demelza's moral slates were level and in doing so where Demelza had been sympathised with over Ross cheating with Elizabeth, he stimulated sympathy by the reader for Ross in the Hugh Armitage cheating story line, which again helps the forgiving Ross process. Maybe it did not for you but finally I think that if Ross could be loving, patient, tolerant and forgiving with Demelza after she cheated on him, with everything else I think he is probably deserving of this too for doing the same thing earlier.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Today -9th of May is the literary anniversary of that ill fated May Incident in 1793 between Ross Poldark and Elizabeth in Poldark.

⚠️ This essay addresses the controversial question of whether this was rape or not (book based).

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Poldark l 2.01

You did tell Ross you are coming? Of course not. 

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Thank you for your recent essay “Ross’s Fall From Grace”. Wowie wow wow!

Thank you! In keeping with the theme it is quite a bit intense and drawn out.

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ROSS POLDARK’s FALL FROM GRACE

A Mammoth monster edition essay on that 9th May 1793 incident with Ross Poldark and Elizabeth.

'In lust there is always conquest and destruction.'

‘Ross Poldark’ (Internal Book 1 Chapter 18 Part 2)