thoughtsonpoldark

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Was divorce or separation a realistic option for Ross and Demelza at that time of crisis if they had wanted this?

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Hello! Regarding the meeting of Ross and Elizabeth at Sawle Church. I will try to be brief but it is a loaded situation….Two things were particularly disturbing to me. 1). When Ross explains to Elizabeth why he didn’t reach out to her after the May 9th incident he said, “How could I, break up your family afresh and mine?” I wish he would have used that opportunity to affirm his love and commitment to Demelza and his son Jeremy. Lost opportunity, which left me and others disappointed in his response. This also led Elizabeth to believe his choice/decision was based on responsibility and was the least disruptive. Therefore his love for Demelza and his son is not a primary factor. Both the book and the series left his remarks that way and it would have made such a difference if he answered differently, especially when his comments were then followed by a series of kisses to Elizabeth. 2). It was not one kiss, it was at least 6 kisses, with the final kiss being more than a light kiss on the lips. If he wanted to say goodbye with a kiss, he could have kissed her hand, or at best her cheek but I think those kisses, small though they were crossed the line and left the viewer with an uneasy feeling. In the series, when Demelza confronts him about his “secret meeting and his secret kisses“, she is clearly upset and is choking back tears. So disappointing….Can you share your thoughts on this as I ALWAYS respect your perspective.

Why did Ross not finally tell Elizabeth the truth that he stayed with Demelza because he preferred her and she was his real and true love?

Thanks for your ‘ask’. It is an interesting question which I probably will expand on even more over on the blog site but have written so much here anyway.

Elizabeth was the provocateur and antagonist to Ross and Demelza’s love story in those first four books where the question of who his true love really lay with seemed to drag on. I can therefore understand that Ross’s failure to tell Elizabeth that it lay with Demelza can be seen as a ‘lost opportunity’ by many people.

I suppose that my response is to say that while this is irritating Winston Graham’s book were written with some realism and the scenario that played out in this scene with Ross and Elizabeth at the Church yard was realistic if you look at the situation, the history and Ross’s objective. I have to focus on the book narrative because while the series scene does not actually do a good job of depicting this scene accurately, Ross does not mention Demelza as you would have liked him to in the book and at least that is followed in the series. The book provides a narrative and therefore presumed explanation which makes more sense as to why Ross held back with this.

Emotionally the Grave/Church yard scene was heavily loaded and this impacted on Ross's psyche and therefore his approach with Elizabeth. Secondly Ross saw Elizabeth differently to the way many

readers see Elizabeth’s character. This was with rose coloured glasses and also he was a man often blinded by enduring loyalty. There is also a third thing to consider before we even get into the scene dynamics and that is that it was never particularly in Ross’s nature to speak cold hard truths to Elizabeth. There are many examples in the book which I will not list here but which include where he would bite his lip holding back on her and where disagreed with her outlook on something and chose to say nothing to her because he did not want to offend her. So already, together with other factors it was unlikely that Ross would change that approach with her in a confrontation where he was on the backfoot because of the wrong he had done to her at their last proper meeting alone.

Ross's Goal

The key thing is that for this confrontation Ross will not have had the goal that the reader might have had for him. He would not have wanted to take an opportunity to hurt Elizabeth or to make her feel like crap that was discarded to the side like he once felt by her in preference of Francis. Definitely not in this moment of time too. Ross was hurt when she did that to him in the first book and she would have been too if he did that here and gave her the real reason for not returning to her by declaring in a major way or in passing, his love and happiness with Demelza and by implication that his feelings for Elizabeth did not compare. In fact in the circumstances in which he met Elizabeth her, this is the last thing he wanted to do. Neither would he have actually felt there was a need to flaunt his love for his wife in the way that a reader/viewer might have felt there was a need or a wish on their part for him to do.

Making amend rather than making Elizabeth upset

Remember that even if a viewer/reader is not of the view that Ross had (acquaintance) raped Elizabeth, in his own words he felt he took her against her will. Even if he self soothed by thinking that in the end it was ‘not so much’ against her will and even if he was correct with this, Ross’s bottom line was still that whatever he did to her that night he was wrong. As a result he expected her to be angry in the aftermath and that not going to see her will have added salt to her injury. So given the nature of what Ross had done to Elizabeth that night, all that was and meeting her her was a big deal and he instead had some grovelling to do.

After the violence and disrespect shown to Elizabeth, rather than rub in Elizabeth's face that his mistreatment of her was all in vain by implying that actually there could never have been a question of wanting to be with her and of leaving Demelza, this meeting was instead an 'opportunity' not to inflame her anger but to try and dampen it down and make her feel better and less rejected by him so harshly. Otherwise it could have come off, if not quite cruel, then at the very least, insensitive. Elizabeth was prone to that not Ross! Except where Ross had lost his temper, if he had a tendency to avoid offending Elizabeth he would definitely avoid that line of honesty with her here.

Seeing Elizabeth’s Hatred

‘…he expected coldness. But he did not expect this trembling anger. It startled him and shook him.’

Not depicted in the series but it's important to really appreciate that Elizabeth’s obvious anger towards Ross in the books will have influenced his already typically delicate approach with Elizabeth so that this was to be more than his typical people pleasing approach specific to Elizabeth. But no one wants to be hated so badly by someone they once loved and still care about. Yet three years after the event Ross saw Elizabeth, as Graham wrote, literally shaking with anger and hearing the trembling anger in her voice. She even told Ross that she wished he would die. That's pretty powerful as a representation of her hatred. What would the average person do when met this way and having felt beforehand that Elizabeth would never forgive him for what he did which he thought was ‘indefensible? Ross saw in her ‘..this corroding hysteria and hatred. Hatred of him.’? So he would hardly want to throw gasoline on that but instead perhaps go above and beyond to counteract that and mollify her.

The narrative confirms Ross knew he had to be cautious and mindful with his words. At one point in the book narrative he said he didn’t want to bring up old memories as “..It would hurt you the more and I’m sure do my cause with you no good.” For Ross his cause was hinted at in the text. Apart from not wanting Elizabeth's hatred to continue against him it said that  ‘As he grew older his own tendencies were to try to repair the breaches that past enmities had made.’ He knew her well enough to strike at Elizabeth's vanity to win her round. In his reflections in the next chapter he thought that he did a good job and that in explaining his approach with Elizabeth to Demelza, that he would say “I tried deliberately to show my affection for her because it sears me to find her so hostile.  I have an uneasy conscience about her for the two misdeeds I committed against her.” He was right that it worked as the narration says that he saw that some of his words made a difference and also that he saw some of the bitterest anger had gone out of her.

Another major motivation for Ross to focus on buttering up Elizabeth up was him becoming aware of the shocking reason for Elizabeth’s more heightened and unexpected level of anger as being due to an unforeseen outcome of his attack being a possible cuckoo baby and how this was causing her unhappiness in her new life through marriage problems. Again imagine him being responsible for messing up her marriage while conveying to her that after doing what he did to her which caused the unhappiness and unkindness from her husband, that he had realised he loved Demelza too much to ever leave her for Elizabeth.

I understand that it might be frustrating that Ross did not convey this message to Elizabeth but I also can see why in this tense circumstance he would recoil and be on the offensive. He had so many more reasons to try and suck up to Elizabeth. In fact while in the past she had disturbed his peace with her disclosures, he had no desire to further disturb hers. She had showed him that he had already done that. So Ross instead phased his words neutrally so that they were factual and without giving the true reason in detail why he could not break up their lives. This meant he did not lie and Elizabeth could be left to interpret what he said in a way that offered her some comfort and less vitriol towards him. As a result their next meeting was a relatively amicable exchange outside Trenwith.  

The Kisses

I think the above thoughts of Ross’s deliberately trying to show Elizabeth affection and to make her think he loved her like there was no change in this, explains the kisses he gave her. He could have just kissed her hand or on the cheek but this was a highly charged meeting and he pushed it to consolidate the work done to softened her up to him significantly. I do think he really was sorry for the mess he caused her. It was a guilt response of over affection which was not suggestive of him still being in love with her. Except for at her death, after this meeting Ross seemed quite detached from Elizabeth in his thoughts and actions in later scenes when their paths crossed. However while this particular meeting may have been the opposite of how you would have liked it to be, this was Ross's big and rare opportunity to push his affection strategy hard and leave a positive impression with what he seemed to take as an almost last goodbye signing off “Goodbye My Dear” as if not only was it a moment of closure but that it might be the last time he saw her for a while. Elizabeth’s change of temper was something he was clearly noting and he had thought  ‘At first she was bitter and hostile. But towards the end she softened and when we parted I kissed her.’ But aside from that Ross’s thoughts are happy at the thought that this meeting was another one that confirmed that his feelings for Elizabeth did not compare to his feelings and in particular, his love of Demelza.

Demelza in the series was choking back tears when she confronted Ross about this meeting because the series followed a different narrative and this scene is not in the books at all. The changes are significant. Elizabeth for the meeting in the series was not trembling with anger and wishing Ross death. Their exchange was set out in a way that it did seem to show that Ross did not have the duress of Elizabeth's blazing anger that put him at her mercy and made him hold back on gushing about his wife. Elizabeth in the series was instead quite calm and nostalgic with him. It conveyed Ross differently and as if he was almost looking regretful that he could not come to Elizabeth. But if you look at the full book dialogue, despite not insulting Elizabeth over preferring Demelza, in some of the other parts of their talk Ross was quite sarcastic, impatient and defensive with Elizabeth. For instance such as her claim that he was a bully and a devil and also when she was sarcastic about his ideas to deal with George. The series did not include that as it followed a narrative of consensual sex togetherness until the early hours. That meant she couldn't really come across with the blazing anger she had in the book scene. The script writer tried to make the meeting more romantic and I suppose following from that made Ross seem ineffective at reassuring Demelza about it when she confronted him. It did seem as if the scriptwriter did that to explain why Demelza then went off with Hugh. It looked like a revenge response from Demelza precisely because of what was made into a romantic meeting with Elizabeth by Prudy's report.

So I agree that these revised scenes in the series reflected more poorly on Ross than the book narrative. It is easy to conflate the two together but very often the script writer was writing from a perspective of Ross still being torn between the two women and still harbouring a romantic love for Elizabeth. That explains  the revision of the Church yard scene. Whereas I believe Graham was quite clear in his narrative and interviews that Ross no longer desired Elizabeth following 9th May. The different depiction by the 2015 series does cause confusion.

I wonder if you are still so disappointed by Ross in the scene or if this might lessen and you put it down to diplomacy and Ross owing at least that to her.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Hello….As you have, I believe such a keen perspective on so many details of this story, I would like to ask your thoughts on the following: Based on the Poldark series, which provided a visual to Ross’s night with Elizabeth, if Ross acted in a moment of anger and frustration why did he stay with her until the early morning. If the infidelity was a singular act of lust due to anger, why did he stay the whole night until early morning? This is a source of confusion for me when considering the infidelity. It leads you to believe it was more than just a singular “loss of control.” (I don’t believe that Ross loved Elizabeth and his love for Demelza proved much stronger than his infidelity, but this is a gray area for me…). Can you share your thoughts on this?

Hi there, this question regarding Ross Poldark staying overnight with Elizabeth is good one for which I will first set the scene a bit on first.

Ross made some comments to Demelza at the end of ‘Warleggan’ when with a calmer attitude about it she finally questioned him about his night with Elizabeth. I think that one in particular is quite key to my thoughts. He did say “But I wasn’t seeking just pleasure. I was -I suppose in fundamentals I was seeking the equal of what I’d found in you, and it was not there. For me it was not there.” Also just before he lifted Elizabeth and took her to the bed that night he did say “There’s no tomorrow. It doesn’t come. Life is an illusion. Didn’t you know? Let us make the most of the shadow”

Loss of control a segway to Ross's controlled unreason

My understanding is that Ross was angry when he went to see Elizabeth and that he was further provoked by the content of the discussion he was having with Elizabeth. This included her provoking him with an untruth in the heat of the moment where she said that she loved George to distraction. It was after that that he became physical by taking her arm and pinioning it behind her as well as kissing her violently. This was anger and Elizabeth described it as hateful. However where you mention a singular ‘loss of control’ this was not a situation like where Ross beat George up and would be pulled off him and then parted from him to go their own way. Ross’s anger with Elizabeth contained in the privacy of that bedroom together, was a segway which carried him through to a point where he was too far gone to where he was presented with an opportunity with Elizabeth that he would not have got to if not for the anger beforehand.

Graham then narrated that Ross kissed Elizabeth with passion where anger gave this extra relish, until anger was lost. Bearing in mind that Ross had thought in ‘The Twisted Sword’ that Valentine was conceived from anger, frustration and lust on his part, I believe that in this scene the anger was lost to lust which in his unreasonable and destructive state of mind brought Ross to suggest that they make the most of the shadows. So from that loss of control Ross had strayed into a state of mind where he was in control but was unreasonable. It is similar to when his anger had led him to plunder the Warleggan boats when they were shipwrecked after Julia’s death. He felt discomfort at the innocent verdict he was given for that because he did not feel he lost his mind or control but similarly anger had carried him through to unreason and a purposeful destruction where he was very focused and very much in control with that goal and in taking advantage of a situation that had occurred. This is like the same with his angry tide anger which after a loss of control in his scuffle with Monk Adderly over his pursuit of Demelza (and behind that her past infatuation for Hugh Armitage), this led him to ignore good reason not to do a duel with Adderly. Once in ‘The Angry Tide’ when Demelza challenged Ross about why he went to Trenwith to look in at the party being thrown there by Elizabeth and George and how he could have been caught by George and had a scene, he said “….It was a single act of -of unreason, if you like. You have to face the fact-must have faced it long ago- that I am not always a reasonable man.” It is these comments by Ross as written by Graham as an explanation of Ross understanding of himself that do match up with many of Ross’s wild behaviour across the saga. I believe that this unreason normally followed some goad or provocation and after the initial loss of control led him down a questionable path.

The Goad of Curiosity and Unreality

For that situation with the Trenwith party Ross was not charged with anger but a long running resentment and in the moment a curiosity about what was going on at his ancestral home. In the situation with Elizabeth for the May incident it is important to remember unreasonableness had led Ross to a point whereas he admitted to Demelza he had had pleasurable sex with Elizabeth. The context of this not just being anyone must be considered. This was the woman that he had wanted to marry, that he had idealised and he said he was devoted to for 10 years. She was the woman who had ‘got away’ and had an idealised relationship with and who at certain times in the book his curiosity over her had been shared with the reader. For instance, wondering if he loved her because he knew her less, wondering about the electric shock from touching her arm once, and wondering if he did truly love her and if their personalities would clash if they had married. Remember that from the starting point of anger each emotion which had followed for Ross that had led him to this point post sex, now provided him with a massive moment to finally address his 10 year curiosity, to scratch the surface and maybe finally have these questions that may have bugged him, answered. As a man, just like Demelza on a deserted beach with Hugh was subject to temptation and a feeling of unreality as an unnamed woman, it is not that surprising that Ross would be tempted to stay for a bit too if only for curiosity’s sake and to take this experience with the woman he had idealise so long, a bit beyond just sex that post sex.

A chance to dig for a deeper connection equal to his with Demelza

"....in fundamentals I was seeking the equal of what I’d found in you, and it was not there."

Ross to Demelza

Based on Ross’s comments on occasion in the book where he said suggested or said explicitly that sex without emotion was empty, the curiosity in what Ross was looking for in Elizabeth that was in Demelza would not be determined from the sex alone. What Ross probably meant he was looking for in Elizabeth was a deeper connection beyond the physical act, just as he then long had with Demelza. So this would be emotional connectedness, intimacy and that spark that lit his fire as he told Demelza she did for him. Also unlike a brawl with George where he would be separated and go elsewhere, Ross was with Elizabeth in the privacy of her bedroom having just been sexually aroused by her.  In exploring his curiosity for a comparison against Demelza he may then have not left immediately for that reason. In any case with him as the offender and then in a calmer disposition, leaving straightaway might have appeared to be wholly disrespectful. My position is that this was a case of acquaintance rape which especially with the confusion about if Elizabeth was willing in the end and perhaps Elizabeth just not resisting and not treating him like the devil, even if she still did not consent, this would explain why Ross staying was not so strange. But even more so for those that do not agree that any rape occurred. These two had a long running relationship history and regard for each other and so leaving immediately or very soon after such a momentous incident would again be less likely than if it were someone without that relationship background.

I suspect that the atmosphere post sex was probably filled with their differing mixed emotions such as some shell shock for what had just happened, embarrassment, a sense of duty to stay for a bit to reframe, soften and counter the impact of what was essentially a violent taking of Elizabeth (which may or may not have seemed not to be so much against Elizabeth’s will in the end), and to try to kill the awkwardness and make up for bad behaviour. Also Ross likely wanted to see if the pleasure he experienced from the physical aspect of the experience was followed in their togetherness in the aftermath. But he found it was not. It is frustrating that Winston Graham did not describe this scene or account for what they did exactly over the length of time they stayed together into the early hours of the morning. However while we know what time he arrived at Nampara we do not know the exact time he left Trenwith. However I am supposing that their time together however long was strained, weird and lacking in conversation. That seems to be the case based on their respective post event reflections where despite Ross staying for some considerable time, neither of them seemed to know how the other felt about the incident or each other wishes thereafter. Perhaps that indicates superficial level conversation and none of it was referred to.  

A blessing for Ross's processing

If my vision of the kind of post sex scenario between Ross and Elizabeth did occur, I do think that this probably was an important occurrence to help Ross process his feelings for Elizabeth rather than for him to have left immediately and not experienced that bold in your face reality of intimacy or lack of intimacy and lack of connectedness with Elizabeth in the aftermath. Otherwise Ross might have been subject to a sanitised idealised vision which could have troubled Ross in a different way if as an idealised vision might, this made Elizabeth more appealing and competitive against Demelza. So personally I think that in a sense it was helpful for him to have stayed that night for a long period and felt what I believe was awkwardness and emotional disconnectedness. I feel this will have helped Ross to clear away his confusion over time as he grew in understanding and perhaps acceptance about his feelings and where they leaned (given that he had probably expected over so long to feel more out of this world feeling in an intimate experience with Elizabeth). Judging from his response to Demelza’s suggestion that the circumstances were not the most romantic and he might want to try again, he was not interested in that idea and all that had occurred to me was all part of the processing he went through to find where his heart really lay.  

I hope my take does not sound too oddball for you and at least offers some food for thought.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

4/10 Truths On Elizabeth’s Astonishments and Humiliations

'She was a beautiful, rather over-reserved, disappointed young woman. She was also jealous of the blossoming Demelza though she tried to fight against it.'

Demelza' first edition (Internal Book 1 Chpt 6)

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Thank you for your essays on the Poldark saga. I have gained so much understanding. I have always believed that when Elizabeth and Ross met at the churchyard by her springing on Ross that George doesn't believe Valentine is his child" then by her words "I cannot say" " I will not say" she was admitting Ross was father. Why the need to tell him if it was not true? She hated Ross at that time.And to tell him this!? I believe she had the knowledge of her menses to know when they stopped that she was pregnant and who the fathet was(sex on May 9th, married on June 20th, baby Feb 14). Demelza knew because of Verity s letter. Didn't show to Ross, she had thoughts of her own on the letter and later "they were all so wrong". What do you think? How much did Demelza guess? She could count if no one else could-Aunt Agatha? How much did she know. She was smart and I believe she knew child was definitely full term. Then...What was Ross’s responsibility? Could he have been involved in Valentine's childhood? I don't see how. George and Ross hated each other. Years later a conversation between Verity and Ross talking of Valentine and Verity saying when Valentine small he looked like Ross now he looks, acts like Joshua. I think Verity fishing for the truth, trying to get Ross to admit and he will not. Your thoughts?

Hi there. Thanks for your ask and your kind words.

On the issue of Valentine’s paternity, for some reason Winston Graham chose not to be explicit in narration about whether all the key characters you mentioned including Elizabeth, Demelza, Ross, Verity and Agatha knew about Valentine’s true paternity, and if they did, then when they had this realisation. However he gave us enough information for us to be surer with regards to Elizabeth and then indications which were suggestive for the others.   

Did Elizabeth know Valentine was Ross's baby?

Like you I think it is clear that Elizabeth did know that Valentine was not George’s child when she married him. Ironically the postponement of her intended wedding day (at her request) will have provided her enough time to have missed a menses and to then realise she might be pregnant following Ross’s visit. This is especially as Elizabeth did tell Dr Anselm that her menses were regular. Her comment “I cannot say" and " I will not say" was in keeping with Elizabeth’s way of words when trying to avoid an outright lie while also not giving away the real truth either. Like you said this only serves as an admission because if he was not the father she would have happily confirmed that.

I think it is understandable that in the heat of the moment with pent up anger over three years for the possible destruction of her marriage, that she would let it slip when finally faced with the man who she felt was responsible for it. Winston Graham conveyed that feeling when he wrote “He seemed at that moment the cause, the fount, the initiator of all her present and past miseries.’ Most people who see someone who has hurt and damaged them and see that they appear to be living their life unaware of the hurt they have caused them will want to give them an indication of this. Once Elizabeth said a bit and Ross prodded her as to the exact problem, I think she couldn’t help but say the true issue was a suspicion on paternity.

When did Demelza realise Valentine was Ross's baby?

So there is no clear indication of the point where Demelza knew about Valentine’s paternity but it made clearer that she knew in the later books when Valentine is older and encroaching on the Poldark’s life. I cannot read much into Demelza’s response and thoughts to Verity’s letter in Warleggan with the gossip that Elizabeth might be pregnant. This is because although Demelza’s sharp intelligences and her natural pessimism around Ross and Elizabeth will have meant her thinking it was a possibility that this was Ross’s child, Winston Graham is not clear on the specifics of Demelza’s reflections on it, which part/s this related to and if she withheld the letter from Ross to avoid him being wound up about the wedding in general or because of the pregnancy gossip. Though George confirmed Elizabeth’s pregnancy to Ross it is not clear if this was confirmed to Demelza by the time she thought back on Verity’s letter when she nearly ran out and left Ross at the last scenes. The other thing is that Winston Graham wrote this book thinking it was the last and also that it had a happy ending. 20 years later he decided to continue the saga and it seemed he then developed the idea about Valentine’s paternity being some key point of conflict and tension to build a new book and storylines around. I think it is less likely he had thought of this beforehand for a book he was closing happily ended and where he made no obvious suggestion of a paternity issue. For instance towards the end he covered Elizabeth’s reflections on her marriage. She was 7 months pregnant by then. Despite being heavily pregnant at the time, not only did he not cover her reflections or hints that she thought she was pregnant with Ross’s child or unsure about this, he did not mention her feelings at all about her pregnancy. That suggests to me it was not a solid concept in his mind with any certainty. I am inclined to believe that Valentine being Ross's child was an idea Graham committed to when he reopened the saga and e started the next book.

Despite the above my view is that Winston Graham wrote with it in mind that Demelza did believe Valentine was Ross’s child from her first appearance in The Black Moon. That was in mid March of 1794 and Elizabeth had given birth two weeks before. Winston Graham specifically wrote that ‘The birth and christening of Valentine Warleggan was the latest thorn in the flesh. Neither said what was uppermost in their minds; it could never be uttered by anyone.’ By then Ross and Demelza had been reconciled for nearly three months and they had processed George and Elizabeth being married, which they had by then been for 9 months. Why would the birth of their first child concern them? I do think that this alludes to a feeling of discomfort about the timing and since Demelza was quite sharp minded she will surely have guessed about the paternity. This is because if Elizabeth got pregnant from her wedding night with George then their baby would not have been due until mid-late March. That would arose suspicion for Demelza. Then whafrom t are the chances of conception soon after marriage but particularly the wedding night. Using a conception date to birth date calculator the due date would be around 26th March if Elizabeth conceived on her wedding day. Valentine's birth on 14th Feb was perfectly in line with conception on 9th May when Ross took Elizabeth against her will.

Ross on paternity and duty to Valentine

You didn't ask about Ross's knowledge of Valentine's paternity before Elizabeth told him but I think it is relevant and also to the question of him taking responsibility and getting involved with Valentine's childhood. In response to Caroline’s letter in 'The Black Moon' about Valentine's Christening Winston Graham said Ross would have been glad not to have read it and that Caroline ‘…did not know half the story.’ I think that relates to him thinking how she did not know about 9th May. Between Ross and Demelza I think Ross subconsciously did not want to think further about paternity and you might have or will notice that whenever Valentine was mentioned to him before he met Elizabeth before she raised the parternity issue to him, he ignored the subject. For instance when his cousin St John at Ralph-Allen Daniell’s dinner party told him Elizabeth had fallen down the stairs while pregnant he asked Ross if he had said something in reply. He had not and Ross said ‘I said nothing.’  He then did not make any further comment or ask any clarifying question on what he was told. Also when he went with Caroline to see Agatha at Trenwith Caroline mentioned about being there for Valentine’s Christening and Winston Graham wrote  ‘Ross did not answer.’ So Winston Graham made a point of Ross swerving any talk of Valentine. I don’t think that was because he resented it as a child of George’s and Elizabeth’s but because of the fear it could be his.

Other than Ross’s initial exclamation of “Oh God. God in Heaven.” when Elizabeth told Ross of the basis to George’s suspicions about Valentine, I do not perceive that Ross was that shocked and I don’t think Demelza would have been either. In his later reflections it was worded that Ross was shocked and worried about George’s suspicions as if George being suspicious was the problem for him rather than the fact that he (Ross) might be Valentine’s father. I think that this is because at some conscious level he had already considered that a possibility and this was why he (and Demelza) did not want to say what was on their minds about Valentine after he was born. Ross stated to Elizabeth that he did not want a cuckoo in the nest and was keen on helping her kill George's suspicion. He avoided Valentine for years until teenage sought him out in the later books. It is clear from his angry reaction to John Treneglos who implied Valentine was his son in the later books that paramount for Ross was the embarrassment caused to Demelza but he also implied to Valentine that the suggestion Elizabeth had been with another man out of marriage would damage her reputation. Elizabeth also wanted Valentine to be believed as George's child and to get his inheritance from him. Ross taking responsibility for Valentine voluntarily as if he was accepting he was the father, would have sullied Elizabeth's name, hurt his own family and complicated inheritance issues. Ross only stepped in when Valentine was estranged from George and by force due to a heavy dose of guilt for how Valentine's life was going and even then he threatened Valentine not to repeat his suspicions that he was his father. Just like men were expected to be distress if they had a mistress, if Ross got involved with Valentine earlier it would have to have been discreet but it would have been very odd before George and Valentine were estranged since George was rich and there would be no need for Ross to be involved with Valentine in a kind of parental way.

Did Verity know of Valentine's true paternity?

I feel quite certain that Verity did not suspect Ross was Valentine’s father. She lived out of town for so long and would have had no idea of Ross possibly having had sex with Elizabeth and being unfaithful to Demelza who she was close with. She was too much of a sweetheart to taunt Ross in the way of making remarks to put him on the spot about paternity and to make him feel awkward or get him to admit he was the father of her sister in law. That would be quite an explosive thing which I think she would prefer to stay away from if she had suspected anything and respect his privacy unless perhaps she perceived it was the source of discontent in Ross. I think she made the comments because Valentine actually being Ross's child was the furthest thing from her mind and that Winston Graham just used Verity's innocent musings as a vehicle to put Ross in awkward situation of that paternity issue alongside the subplot of George having difficulties with Valentine and himself reflecting on the paternity issue. Verity just commenting on an observation that she had about Valentine's likeness to a family member in the Poldark line was a mirror of when Geoffrey Charles said out loud his thoughts that Valentine looked like Ross on his rocking horse. I see these incidents as devices by Graham to taunt Ross in the former occasion and George and Elizabeth in the latter occasion that Ross was the father. It was a interesting way to show the reader that this was not a dead or unforgotten issue and the secret was a dangerous one because Valentine’s Poldark traits were occasionally noticed by people who innocently commented on this while not having a clue that there might actually be a paternity issue with Valentine.

Did Agatha know that Valentine Was Ross's Child?

I don’t believe that Agatha knew Valentine’s true paternity. She would not have had any idea that Ross and Elizabeth slept together but the circumstances of Valentines birth on a black moon and premature did get her attention. In her argument with George before she died she was taking what I think were shots in the dark around the two elements of Valentine’s birth that were unique. For being under a black moon she could run the argument that this meant the child would be evil or ‘twisted’ as she said. Then the child being premature naturally would mean he could not be the father. That was an obvious taunt to make. I say that too was a shot in the dark because she even suggested Valentine was neither a seven month or eight month baby and she had seen 8 month newborns and that they did not look how Valentine did who she said was a full term child. However according to the enquiries George later made with Dr Behenna in the next book Agatha’s claims upon which she based this on were wrong. She said that unlike full term babies 8 month babies did not have nails, were wrinkled and red and did not have hair. Dr Behenna who said in his career he had delivered a considerable number of 6, 7 and 8 month babies denied each of those assertions were quite true. Hence Agatha was taking shots in the dark with this too in order to make him think Valentine was conceived before marriage. Also just before Agatha died she regretted what she said with Graham taking no opportunity to narrate clearly that nevertheless Agatha had revealed a long held suspicion that she had and believed was true. He just narrated her questioning ‘What she had said’ as if she knew it was crazy rather than and not meaning to injure Elizabeth.  I think that especially as she hated George all along, that if Agatha really believed what she said was actually true there would have been indications along the way or little under the breath jibs about him not being full term, rather than this outburst a year and half after Valentine was born.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

2/10 Truths on Elizabeth’s Astonishments and Humiliations

‘I cant come here again, she thought. After all this time, and now it's too late. Too late for me to come here.'

( ‘Ross Poldark’ internal Book 2 Chapter 8 )

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Just after that iconic Bluebell Scene.

Would you like them? Oh. Thank you! But I'm afraid they won't last. See, they're fading already. Cornflowers are like that.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

1/10 Truths on Elizabeth’s Astonishment and Humiliations (Bud on The Horizon)

[thoughtsonpoldark]

"Is it such an astonishment that a woman who changed her mind could change it twice?...Well, yes, perhaps it is, for it has always been an astonishment and a humiliation to me."

Elizabeth to Ross ‘Warleggan’ (Internal Book 1 Chapter 3)

[thoughtsonpoldark]

MARRYING DEMELZA-AN UNEXPECTED BLESSING. 👰‍♀️🤵‍♂️💒💍❤️

"There was the theme I wanted to express, dealing with the Ross- Elizabeth-Francis triangle...Into it also had come the engaging and vital character Demelza, who by now was intent on altering the shape of the story."

Winston Graham -'Woman Magazine' 10th December 1977

[thoughtsonpoldark]

“I’m afraid they would droop. See, they’re dropping already. Bluebells are like that.”

Elizabeth picked up her gloves and crop. I can’t come here again, she thought. After all this time, and now it’s too late. Too late for me to come here.

Book- Ross Poldark

[thoughtsonpoldark]

‘Don’t you think I remember the night we came back from the pilchard catch in Sawle? Then it was different. That was the night I fell in love with you. Instead of just the physical thing … Without emotion there’s nothing, is there. Nothing worth recalling. A shabby exercise. Thank God it’s never been that between us since.’ ‘Let us thank God we are not as other people are.’”

- The Stranger from the Sea: A Novel of Cornwall, 1810-1811 (Poldark Book 8) by Winston Graham

[thoughtsonpoldark]

When Ross Poldark married Demelza he thought that…

'It was not that he loved her but that such a course was the obvious way out.'

What is that supposed to mean? 👇

[thoughtsonpoldark]

Moving on From Elizabeth is another great essay! I look forward to your insights. I would love to know your view on the meeting between Ross and Elizabeth at Sawle Churchyard. She hated Ross, hadn’t talk for years and tells him about George’s suspicions. That is a loaded scene. Then Ross’s internal thoughts after, why he didn’t tell Demelza of the meeting, “So all must be kept secret. And all must be left unsaid.” - that whole section. Then the question of who was Valentines father.

Hi there. You are right that the Churchyard meeting is very loaded. That’s since they did not see each other for so long and there were so many issues to address. What happened that May night, who was to blame, how they feel about each other and the issue of Valentine's paternity etc.

Elizabeth’s Hatred

I think Elizabeth’s hatred of Ross was understandable on three levels. Firstly my position is that she was the victim of Acquaintance rape which can have a different reaction from the typical victim response to a stranger rape. Secondly as Ross said he did an offence against Elizabeth that night that was 'indefensible' but his failure to come back to see Elizabeth either to explain and/or apologise was an additional and ‘crowning’ insult. Thirdly by the time of this meeting she had faced turmoil over the paternity of Valentine, the deception she was having to keep up against her husband and the damage his suspicion was causing to their marriage. So the consequence of Ross’s assault add additional layers to her anger and hate.

Answers on consent or not for 9th May

It is natural that readers would play close attention to the dialogue in this scene to try and decipher if that May night was consensual. I think Winston Graham does a good Job at still not making their dialogue so blatantly conclusive. However if you have seen my post on a Judgment Of Rape (A Case of Rape or Not For Ross Poldark) I think this is largely because like Morwenna with Reverend Osborne, Elizabeth’s fight or flight response was to flop and not to resist after the first shock. That means that while Ross is able to taunt Elizabeth that she did not treat him like the devil, he was unable to suggest that she clearly participated willingly as a joint venture. Overall, aside from that Ross repeatedly made comments where he seemed to accept the blame and which she agreed with but as if to find some way to pull her in to holding some blame too, he engages in victim blaming that it was her behaviour towards him over the years before that played a part in why he acted the way he did.

Ross’s diplomacy for peace

Aside from the above it is clear that Ross wanted to foster peace with Elizabeth at this meeting as Graham wrote that ‘As he grew older his own tendencies were to try to repair the breaches that past enmities had made.’ This is consistent with him later thinking that he tried to make Elizabeth think he loved her. We know that in a way he still does but not in the way she would want him to still love her or that competes with his love for Demelza. Yet he made sure to speak with blurred lines and to say that he had done what he did that May night because he loved her and that she had been the love of his life. Ross had a good tactic there because after all her catty, angry sarcastic replies to him Graham wrote ‘She was silent. Then in a voice somewhat changed, as if his words had at last made a difference....’  It is clear that he had appealed to her vanity and her need for admiration. However this is against a backstory of Ross from at least the second book starting to question if he really did love her. (‘Was it because he loved Elizabeth – or because her knew her less?’ ‘Jeremy Poldark’  Book 2 Chapter 6 )

What stands out for me from this discussion is

1. Ross saying in respect of what he did to her and to deny that he had said something to make George suspicious about Valentine "Love can't turn to that much hate." In my post ‘Ross Poldark's Fall From Grace (A Thin line between lust and hate for Elizabeth)’ , I document that 9th May was motivated largely by Ross’s momentary anger and hate for Elizabeth rather than his love. Therefore this comment from him seems to support this and that hate was definitely in the mix but to a certain extent.

2. Despite admitting what he did was wrong Ross does not actually apologise for what he did to Elizabeth! Instead he is more defensive at times taunting and not really apologetic in tone.  

3. Ross admits that until seeing Elizabeth and how angry she was, that he did not regret it 9th May. Given all his thoughts in Warleggan about how badly he had behaved this should be an eyebrow raising comment. In a way that is almost insulting for both Demelza and Elizabeth. However based on his discussion with Demelza at the end of Warleggan it seems that Ross saw his night with Elizabeth as the very thing that made him realise that what he had with Demelza was a different league (real love) and killed the feeling of missing out with Elizabeth having realised he did not truly love her. So in a sense he didn't regret it because he viewed the incident as one that helped him in coming to that discovery once and for all- that he did not have second best.

Not telling Demelza about the Meeting

I think Ross did this due to fear and a small dose of PTSD from his 7 month separation with Demelza as a result of what happened with Elizabeth and also Demelza nearly walking out on him when he did eventually try to be honest and confront the issue of his infidelity head on. It seems that nearly losing Demelza really did affect him and he mentioned this near loss a year later in the next book. Here after meeting Elizabeth he took the view that when it came to his infidelity with her ‘ ..this was the one subject on which Demelza’s wisdom could be drawn off course by the lode star of her emotions. You could expect no other. It was a dangerous and nasty situation that he saw ahead…’  He thought ‘ once bitten, twice shy’  and that there would be ‘ hell to pay…´if what happened before happened again where they got into an argument and said things they didn’t mean. This includes his comment to Demelza about gratifying Captain McNeil which made her run up the stairs and pack her bags only for Ross to reassure her in the rain that he had not really meant what he said. Ross was genuinely fearful and thought of this in quite strong terms that this last blow up had nearly led to the break up of his marriage. So whilst he did the wrong thing here in his secrecy, on a human level, based on his fear I think it can be understood why he decided it was not worth the strife.

Not telling Demelza Valentine could be his

I think that in many ways Ross compartmentalised this paternity issue almost to the back of his mind and it is not something he is shown as dwelling over much. If so his main concern was not the truth but that whatever the case George did not have the suspicion that he, Ross was the father. Secondly, just like Demelza did on some matters with Hugh, there was a withholding of the details by Ross so as not to create another point of conflict and one that would forever cause the other person pain or even embarrassment by speaking openly and in detail about such a matter. It seemed that both Ross and Demelza at times preferred to leave things unsaid or unconfirmed while knowing that the other had an idea of the truth. This was also in relation to Demelza actually physically cheating with Hugh. Ross kind of knew this might have happened but didn’t want details- or chose not to seek it out. That is self protection and a coping mechanism. Equally Demelza kind of knew Valentine could be Ross’s but never pushed for confirmation either or to discuss this in great depth. In the later books they talk about Valentine as if they both know he might be Ross’s but don’t really say it out in the open to each other until the last book. That approach is often done when a topic is too painful to address and confirm so very explicitly. Ross’s plan to keep this secret is an awareness of the pain and hurt it would cause to Demelza and it also explains why Ross was fuming when John Treneglos visited him in ‘Bella Poldark’ and spoke as if Valentine was his son despite the risk that Demelza could have been around. Ross stated that if Demelza had heard she would have been upset and affronted by John’s suggestions. Again, even though he knew Demelza kind of knew the truth these were delicate matters where pain could be saved if withheld or these 'mistakes' was easier to cope with when treated as mere possibilities.

Also to be fair to Ross Valentine's paternity was a matter that was never and could never be confirmed, so that was another reason not to burden Demelza a painful issue that was just a possibility at that stage after he met Elizabeth. As Valentine grew up and they both saw it was more likely they began to skirt more closer to this in conversation.  

[thoughtsonpoldark]

After a stay at Heartbreak hotel you have to move on. Ross did over three and half years!

Here’s how he did it.

[thoughtsonpoldark]

It’s their wedding anniversary. 🎉🎉🎉

24th June 1787. 💍

Ross and Demelza