#yet one more reason i dont identify as a trans man / trans masc

[transmandrake]

Scalding hot take I've been ruminating on but I think we need to retire the phrase 'Trans X are trans X' (ie. Trans men are men, trans women are women) and 'trans X are not Y' (ie trans men are not women, trans women are not men)

Not because its wrong per se, but because 90% of the time people say it and actually mean 'trans X are exactly the same as cis X'

And what happens is, even trans people, (id argue especially trans people) consciously or not, internalise that everything that is believed about cis people, is true for trans people.

This leads to absolutely batshit takes like 'its okay to hate trans men because men are our oppressors' (thats just transphobia) and 'trans women are sensitive and delicate and need protecting because they are women' (actually they need protecting because theyre being fucking murdered, not because theyre magical soft sweet little babies (like you think women are. Thats just sexism, even if you mean it positively). This ones often covert because, unfortunately sometimes sexism is gender validating)

Its also a *hand wiggles* phrase because I think a lot of people are so afraid of seeming transphobic that theyve kind of backpedalled into becoming really transphobic by denying the existence of anyone who is both a man and a woman and trans (and any and all combinations you can think of).

I think also this phrase is partially why a lot of people seem to think all trans people want to pass, will pass, and have a completely binary identity. The mere suggestion that a trans man can be a woman or a trans woman can be a man is seen as transphobic, when thats probably how the cookie crumbles for most people with multiple genders that include the binary ones.

(I was really glad to see more awareness and acceptance of multigender stuff in the last while but everyone gets funny about it every time trans stuff comes up... these do not have to be conflicting issues...)

How to help this? I'm not sure. I feel like some kind of indicator whether a trans person identifies as something, versus wants to be something (Im not sure how to explain this distinction. I guess its about whether your gender is more about being TRANSgender or being transGENDER. Yknow?) could be helpful, but well thats just more divisions and distinctions for people to put their burdens on.

Ultimately some women are men and some trans men arent men and some binary people are nonbinary too, because its all made up and simultaneously real. Without acknowledging this, we're just making Sexism 2.0 Trans-Affirming This Time instead of going 'hey, sexism fucking sucks, we shouldn't do that to anyone, cis or trans'.

[horsegirlwarcrimes]

just wanna make a little post because! someone left a very respectful comment on WINRN asking a bit about SQH's choices transition wise. the comment has since been deleted so im not gonna repeat it (if this was you and you were worried plz dont be! i dont mind at all!) and i dont want to embarrass or put pressure on the person, but i thought id write my thoughts on that out here 😊

putting this under a cut because it got long lol

SQH in WINRN is a trans man, and has identified that way since childhood in PIDW-verse. In the real world, he was never out and never socially or medically transition, and had a lot of internalized misogyny and transphobia (which is gonna be explored a bit later in the fic). However, PIDW is canonically a world with no homophobia, which I am taking to mean no transphobia as well!

This is a major culture shock, and one that WINRN's SQH definitely says he is totally cool with and has internalized, but I think he still has a lot of internalized fear rattling around inside, which definitely plays into his choices of how he treats his body.

That said, many trans people don't actually experience a ton of dysphoria when it comes to their secondary sexual characteristics 😊 I myself have a very complicated relationship with my physical sex, which I am pretty much just directly giving to SQH haha. It's definitely not representative of every, or even most, trans experiences, just my own that I want to explore a bit through SQH, especially how that overlaps with having biological children.

Not wanting to medically transition can have a lot of reasons outside of medical concerns or cost. It's a really permanent choice. For me, I'm always like 'okay, but what if I miss my boobs? or what if it just makes no difference for me?' I, like SQH, still spend time not passing for various reasons, and it is useful to be able to girl-code myself when needed, which I wouldn't be able to do as easily if I had medically transitioned.

Drawing from trans friends experiences, some people also just actively like their bodies the way they are! I have a close friend who likes their chest a lot, and actually feels more masc and confident when not binding. Different vibes for different folks :))

That said, unlike myself, I do think that WINRN!SQH does eventually medically transition. His choice not to is a combo of ambivalence towards his body and fear of rejection, so once he is more confident and settled he and MBJ find like. A gender change fruit lol. And because magic, he can always swap back if he wants hahaha.

It hasn't come up yet, but WINRN is also T4T Moshang! Mobei-jun is also a trans man who has made very different choices than SQH when it comes to his transition. He gets much less self-shame/dysphoria, and transitioned later but went right for medical transition. Growing up in PIDW-verse where it's not a big deal gives him a different perspective than SQH. He just like... cut his tits off and did an ice ritual and was all set 😂

ANYWAYS thats just my gender headcanons for this fic hahaha. thank you for reading if you got this far! and literally never worry about leaving comments or asks with questions on the gender stuff, im very comfy talking about it and very hard to offend ❤️

[dancerfelix]

Want to start of with strong agreement, I think 1 and 2 are pretty poor reasons for identifying with transfemininity. Anything that implies trans women either have an inherent masculinity or at least some distance from womanhood is misguided at absolute best and very clearly textbook transmisogyny.

(not yet addressing point 3, have separate thoughts on that) Outside of the blatant transmisogyny of points 1 + 2, I kind of think that to some extent this is an issue of having different definitions of labels. I think a lot of people now (especially people who are very anti transfem afab labels) seem to use transmasc as interchangeable with trans man, and transfem as interchangeable with trans woman. At best these words also seem to include ftx and mtx identities. I do absolutely think there is a use for a (at least relatively) inclusive term to describe agab + transness, especially one that is not deeply entrenched in agab (many people would not like to see 'agab trans' used to refer to groups for probably obvious reasons). And so this is also generally how I use these terms, and how I personally identify. But I have seen confusion, or even intentional decisions, to use transmasc/transfem/transneutral not in this way (a way of implying agab without using agab language), but to say something more about the presentation of the trans person. So an afab masc butch might be transmasc, but an amab masc butch could also be transmasc, if she chose to identify this way. And there is an argument to be made that this is the less useful way to use these terms, and it is obviously the less common way to use them, but I have never had any issue with trans women or other afab transgender people wanting to identify with 'transmasc' as a label (although I'm sure there are other transmascs who would be more irritated about that).

I will also say that I noticed you did imply that butchness is a transmasculine identity (in argument 2), which I find interesting for a few reasons. I also dont know if I'm maybe misreading what was said/being "uncharitable" (although I hope this response does not read this way). Butch as a transmasc identity is actually kind of complicated, in that well, for one, there have been pretty significant waves of thought on this arguing that only women can be butch, or that women cant be butch, or that trans women can't be butch, or that multigender non non men can't be butch, or that taking t means that you're not really butch (it makes you a man). Obviously most of these aren't really super common, especially now, but I think its worth pointing out that for someone afab who is in the position of feeling 'like a woman but not quite' it can be hard to identify with even a label as seemingly obviously, uncontroversially available to them, may be more complicated than one would assume. I don't think that means that person should be given a free pass to identify in a way that is inappropriate or appropriative, but rather that I think there is pretty good reason to be skeptical of claims arguing 'x kind of person cannot identify as y', even coming from other queer people. Getting back to the transmasc butches thing- I also think it's interesting because as a transmasc butch, I have found that butch spaces more transfem centric tend to be pretty unrelatable for me. Not as unrelatable as cis or fem spaces, but it's definitely like, I can't necessarily rely on a transfem butch's advice on passing as butch, or sometimes how feminine an outfit comes off, or even how safe a certain bathroom is, because the experiences are pretty different. I still think there's nothing less butch about a non transmasc butch obviously. But it could be said that having non afab or less masc butches makes the term butch less useful to me, or even to all masc transmasc butches, but I still believe that gatekeeping the label would be more harmful than just accepting that having one label in common doesn't mean our experiences will be super similar, just that there is something shared between us. Does this necessarily translate to the afab transfem discourse? Not necessarily. But I do feel like it is somewhat relevant.

As for 3, I think for self identifying afab transfems, it's probably more likely to be ableism specifically that is being spoken to. And I think there's probably a really specific overlap between "so called cis girl who couldn't learn/follow the girl social script and was denied interaction with female peers because of this" and "so called cis boy who had a body that didnt follow the girl script so was denied interaction with female peers." Like I think the people experiencing that probably do really strongly resonate with what transfems say about their personal experiences with childhood and growing into a woman while having "assigned freak at birth" childhoods. I don't think that necessarily means they should have that label, but I think it tends to be a pretty deep relatability.

As for my specific thoughts on the discourse, I feel like as a non transfem, I dont really have a huge stake in this so I tend to avoid trying to have a huge Take™. I guess I'd say a lot of the discourse assumes a degree of frivolity to the choice to identify in this way (I dont think your post did this to the extent I am complaining about). I do think that if someone (especially perisex) afab really wanted to ID as transfem, I would hope that they'd really thought about it, and also that they didnt play intentionally obtuse about like, walking into a transfem only space and being unwelcome there. I also do understand why many (non afab lol) transfems just straight up would not be happy about or comfortable around someone afab who IDs as transfem, and I think someone who would want to ID as such, who claims some kinship with trans women, should probably care about that fact. I also think that it's kind of hard to fully separate the label from bad faith and also just ignorant usages of it. I do still have discomfort with some of the discourses around it, especially what feels like potentially overstated harm- I have seen/heard of 3 total cases of so called afab transfems and one of them was intersex so it feels odd when I see people arguing that this is going to completely erode the meaning of the word transfem. But I think it's also just fine to want a word to organize around and if transfem is the word that amab trans people want to use, I think that should be respected. I probably like 80-90% agree that it's an appropriative identity label, but I think so many of the arguments I see about it are so reminiscent of other, sillier discourses, which is disheartening.

since this discourse is going around again, some brief thoughts:

i think a lot of people who (mis)identify as being transfem/trans women while having been afab are speaking of real experience, but are mislabeling it. ultimately people can identify however they want, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be legible or accurate with our terminology. some examples of this include but are not limited to the following:

"I was afab but-

1. I don't totally feel like what society expects of me as a woman" - you could be nonbinary, a demigirl, or even just a cis woman who is experiencing misogyny

2. I feel like I should have a penis/other "masculine" trait" - you could be any number of trans masculine identities, including things like "butch". Do you still feel ties to femininity? perhaps consider bigender, genderfluid, or another multigender as a label, or maybe even no particular label at all! penises don't a transfem make, not to mention many trans women don't have penises

3. I have been treated as overly masculine by society, growing up my femininity was always denied" - may I suggest that you may be experiencing intersexism or misogynoir? more people than just transfems are denied their femininity, to varying degrees and experiences.

[darlington-v]

HELLO YES IS ONE OF(?) THE FELLOW TRANSMASC BEEDUO ENJOYERS, RESPONDING AFTER A MULTIDAY DELAY.

CANT BELIVE THAT HANDHOLDING SHIT.

As someone else who has (on a certain level) like, made that connection, of someone I can be very affectionate with, but am still in the gender closet with for various reasons. I can absolutely understand your impulse and the preassure... a lot of my hesitation is based around a fear of going against some kind of perceived "ground work" in that relationship. And then I get frustrated because in this relationship and others i just would not have to think so much about this and how I present myself if I had just been born a cisguy. I am also just yearning for bro friendships where I'm just perceived as a dude from the get-go, even if I end up acting ""feminin"" or some shit.

But when I think about all the relationships I've had, I wouldn't want to have "skipped over" any of them, even if I wasn't, or didn't start by presenting my truly authentic self. I can't bring myself to regret or fully resent any of those connections, even if in my heart I can't always regard them as 100% "valid" or "genuine" in the context of how I know I was/am perceived and how I present. I dunno, I hope that makes sense, and helps in some way... I guess what im trying to say is, even if I have wishes and yearnings of how things could be different, I still am happy to have had the relationships I've had.... and I know ill just keep meeting new folks and either things will work out or they wont, and that'll be ultimatly for the best...

But hughu its also kinda silly when I think about it, that some internet dudes make me confront and think about all this shit. But it also does make sense too.

I don't know its very hard to explain, feel free to just ignore all this.

yes!!!! i TOTALLY understand this!

it's really frustrating because i would love to seek out other communities and environments that may lead into relationships similar to that of like??? SAME AFFECTION????? but im afraid to put myself out ANYWHERE new because i don't want to be perceived as like... woman-lite or anything. i don't want anyone to have to rethink how they perceive me i just wanted to present in the way that i feel.

similarly to what you said, i don't want to build something on "ground-work" i know i'll have to break down and like. make the REAL ground work pretty much?

and yeah! same! i get frustrated as well because it would just be much easier to deal w/ if i was just. cis. but i don't dwell on that too much, luckily

however i still run into the same issue: (more long winded venty shit below, ur invited to me being extremely vulnerable on the internet have fun)

how can i deal with this and make this easier for myself? is it... achievable even? like! yeah! how can i simply start new relationships with this... pre-established certainty of "that is a Boy! a BONAFIDE boy!" like... not even cis but just.

i struggle with the idea that most people who aren't trans will like... not... TRULY respect my identity? like behind closed doors. which is something i know a lot of trans people struggle with and honestly that is... our own issue in regards to trust. if no one throws and red flags that they don't actually respect your identity, then you really just have to trust that they do.

it's just... honestly putting conditions on like. your trust i guess. PERSONALLY. like im putting conditions on myself such as: if i present masculine then people will respect my identity and assimilate to how i identify, even if i don't present that yet.

which... usually isn't the case? people may take longer to assimilate but if someone is going to respect you, you can usually tell. or i feel like i can.

however. i guess. i want to shortcut the assimilation? but it's unfair to me to just put myself on hold until i don't need to ask people to like. REALLY understand liek HEY. THAT PITCHY MOTHERFUCKER IS A DUDE. because it's hard. and i, in my tiny pea brain, feel like a shortcut would just already be presenting male boy man MASCULINE. however, like i said, it's unfair for me to put that on myself bc that's a LONG time to wait!! that's coming out, getting a new wardrobe, and ALSO getting HRT!! that doesn't just happen in one day.

i explained to some friends that like. sometimes i wish i could just present a certain way and then no one could really ever know me intimately.

and it's definitely not that im... ASHAMED of being trans!! it's very nice and cool! however i feel sad that like... we're still adjusting as a society in terms of like... gender i guess? like... i do not want to be seen as woman-lite by anyone. in any degree. and sometimes you need a deeper understanding of gender to get past like... the weird like. ok he's... he's boy but like kinda not boy??

IT'S JUST. MMM. BEING PERCEIVED AND NOT INTERPRETTED CORRECTLY IS VERY TERRIFYING AND I HATE IT AND UR RIGHT BEING CIS WOULD BE EASIER, I DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO BE CIS, I WOULD JUST LIKE TO EMULATE CISNESS WHILST REMAINING QUEER WHICH I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT'S POSSIBLE.

however same!!! the relationships i have now i love and i care very deeply about and i feel that like... even though they've known me before i was like "ok masc and he/they" and shit like that, i do feel like they understand like

*points* boy!!

however when it comes to strangers it's so... scary. and like IDK. ITS SO FUNNY BECAUSE I'VE NEVER HAD TO DEAL WITH THIS BEFORE. AND IT'S WHY I WANT TO LIKE? EXPLORE THE COMMUNITY FOR OLDER TRANS PEOPLE. LIKE HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THIS???? how can you just BE OKAY when like... introducing yourself to strangers.

how can you just let... strangers in?

which is also *THROWS THINGS* THE WORST PART!!! I WANT TO BE A CONTENT CREATOR BUT I DON'T WANT TO WAIT!!!! I WANT MY VIEWERS TO GO BOY BOY BUT THEY WONT BECAUSE I HAVE NO FORM OF PRESENTATION BESIDE A PERSONA AND A VOICE AND MY VOICE IS PITCHY!!! ITS SO HIGH AND PITCHY!!!

and it's frustrating!! because i don't want an audience who doesn't like understand BOY!!! NOT WOMAN-LITE!!!!!!! NOT WOMAN GOING THRU PHASE!!!!!

BOYYYYY!!!!!

TLDR;

being trans is hard and i just don't want to be seen as woman-lite. i want to bee seen as like cis boy but trans. like i think i'd take more kindly to someone being like "omg i didn't even know you were trans!" to like someone infantilizing me and calling me a sweet little boy bean. and thats a lot easier between close friends! even though they have heard my voice and they've listened to me talk about being trans! they understand. and strangers?? have the potential to not. like they might? but what if they dont... and that's. Scary.

[communistsans]

Bi/pan lesbian is not a term you should use.

Let me be clear, I think the experience you're describing is real, but the term is offensive to bi, pan, and lesbian people. Bi, pan, and lesbian are separate sexualities. They cannot be put together because they are directly contradictory. And before you say "what about x sexuality and ace," that is different, because the terms bi, straight, pan, lesbian, and gay all define the romantic and sexual parts of attraction. Ace only describes a lack of sexual attraction, leaving the question of who they are romantically attracted to. So if someone says they are ace and bi, it works because from that you know that they are attracted to women/men, but only romantically. You wouldn't say, "I'm aromantic, asexual, and bi," because all those things overlap. You can't be attracted to no one romantically or sexually AND be attracted to men/women. Lesbian describes a sexuality that means women/fem aligned people who are EXCLUSIVELY attracted (romantically and/or sexually) to women/fem aligned people. Bisexual describes a sexuality that means someone attracted (romantically and/or sexually) to 2 or more genders. Pansexual describes a sexuality that means someone attracted to others (romantically and/or sexually) regardless of their sex/gender.

So that's why the term is nonsensical, but why is it offensive to lesbians and bisexuals/pansexuals? I'm bi woman, so take my lesbian commetary with a grain of salt.

I believe every sexuality has a bit of wiggle room, and also that that doesn't mean that a person can't use the term gay/lesbian. I don't think a straight man being attracted to one guy makes him gay/bi, I don't think being a lesbian and being attracted to one guy makes her bi/straight. I'm bisexual and people often ask me if they are bi because they are attracted to x obviously attracitve celebrity, and the answer is usually no. It takes more than being attracted to a couple of people of the opposite sex to be bi/pansexual. What makes you bi/pan is being able to be genuinely attracted to, date, fall in love with, and be intimate with people of the same and different sexes/genders. I think straight and gay people alike can have genuine attractions that do not align with their sexuality and still be that sexuality. However the key here is that those are exceptions. When 99% of your experiences are exclusive to one gender then yes, you are gay/lesbian. I don't think that genuinely liking your high school boyfriend because he was a sweet guy and you hadn't figured yourself out yet makes you not a lesbian. And I think to say that it does is also lesbophobic. Just to get the whole "sexuality is fluid" out of the way.

Relationships between women are so often devalued, and lesbians often suffer from people erasing their sexualities, or people assuming that somehow they must be attracted to men in some way. This is a fucked up and lesbophobic way of thinking, and it's stupid that they have to deal with that. Lesbians shouldn't be made to feel ashamed of personal experiences for fear of having their sexuality questioned/invalidated. Politically speaking, it is critical for lesbians to ensure the term lesbian means a sexuality of women exclusively being attracted to women, please do not interfere with this term. It is important to their communities that it stays that way. However I know what is politically convenient isn't always what is personally true. On a personal note, I think the distinction should be this: if you HAVE BEEN attracted to a couple of men in your life but could never see yourself being with a man and being happy, and can easily say that 95% or more of your attraction has been exclusively to women, you are a lesbian. If you ARE attracted to men and could see yourself being happy in a relationship with a man, you are bisexual or pansexual. As a bisexual person, I don't experience or see my attraction to either men or women as exceptions, they are both natural and part of my sexuality. I also want to note that it is unfair and lesbophobic to assume that because someone has liked one guy in their life it somehow discredits the rest of their experiences, especially when we dont hold gay men to the same standard. In fact, its usually the opposite! If a straight man has one experience with another guy everyone assumes he must be gay/bi, even though he has only ever been attracted to women. Ultimately, if someone says they are a lesbian, they like women and just women. End of story. Yes there could be different personal anecdotes, but lesbians are attracted to women alone. To say otherwise is lesbophobic. If you are attracted to men, you aren't a lesbian.

Implying that lesbians are attracted to men is lesbophobic, so why is the term "bi lesbian" also biphobic? Well because in addition to erasing the meaning of lesbian, it also erases the meaning of bi. Bisexuals are often believed to secretly be straight or gay. We are not gay or straight, we're bi. I get the term is trying to say that you have a strong preference for women; many bisexuals have a preference, however you are still bi. If this "preference" is that strong to the point where you basically are near exclusively attracted to women, then you are probably a lesbian. You are either a bi person with a preference for women, or you are a lesbian. You cannot be both bi and a lesbian. Substitute bi for pan here and the commentary is the same.

I've also seen people who say they call themselves bi/pan lesbians because they are attracted to women and also to nonbinary people. And okay, I see where you're coming from here, but that doesnt mean the term isn't offensive. Gender non-conforming and nonbinary lesbians are a thing and I'm not about to police nb lesbians; they have always existed and been important parts of the lesbian community. But if the only nb people you find yourself being attracted to are nb lesbians and other fem aligned people, you're still a lesbian. If you aren't comfortable with that because it erases some peoples identity, then use bi/pan, because those are the terms to describe attraction to 2 or more genders. Or use queer! I knew a couple in college who were a lesbian couple until one of them came out as trans masc. To not invalidate them, their partner said they were queer instead of lesbian.

Another person I have seen using this term is women who are basically bi/pan or even straight who for whatever reason have stopped dating men permanently, despite being attracted to them, and this actually has some historical precedent. During 2nd wave feminism these women called themselves "political lesbians," giving up dating men in order to free themselves from misogyny. If this is your experience, do what you want, but again, the term bi/pan lesbian is harmful to lesbians and bi/pansexuals and please call yourself something else. I think it's fine to call yourself a lesbian or gay for convenience sake if you really do never plan on dating men again. Please just understand that the lesbian/bi/pan communities need to have the integrity of these terms for political reasons. Lesbian is not an umbrella term the way gay or queer is. On a personal level, yes there is wiggle room, but on political level these terms need to have definitions.

Ultimately if you identify as a bi/pan lesbian, please stop using that term. It's problematic for lesbian, bi, and pan communities and frankly makes no sense. If you want a fluid term, you can always just say "queer" or "queer with a preference for women." Normally I don't care about what people identify as and I against gatekeeping, because in the end it doesn't hurt anyone. But this isn't about gatekeeping. The term bi lesbian is harmful, which is why I'm asking anyone defending that term to please reconsider. If you identify with this term, I'm not sending hate your way and I'm not trying to invalidate you. I'm just saying this term is harmful and there are plenty of other non problematic ways to describe your sexuality, like wlw, nblw, sapphic, or queer.

If I got something wrong here please tell me! I just think there is a lot of really hateful debate going on here and it's extremely unnecessary. But my final stance is that the term bi lesbian/pan lesbian is offensive, biphobic, and especially lesbophobic, and we should do better by the lesbian community, who are constantly being erased.