#wtit theories

[randomnerd737]

plot twist: the orange side is actually 5AM Thomas

[asingerofdreams]

Just noticed that in "Working THROUGH Intrusive Thoughts", when Thomas leaves and we get the shot of Logan looking around the space, the lyrics from the song in the dance scene which had been appearing throughout the rest of the episode ("We Could Fly" by Sam Sparro) are, "stop trying to hold the world"

IM SO UNWELL

[loganslowdown4]

So

My mind wanders as one does—

And I have this theory that what it means for Roman and Remus to be separate creativities, and why Remus could knock Roman out, is that only one can be in the driver’s seat at a time—

(This is barring any of the asides videos where they’re interacting together and/or the main issue storyline isn’t important)

Since Thomas has this black & white view on his own thoughts, be they intrusive or not, when one Creativity is working, the other is taking a backseat. Thomas would imagine the ‘evil’ one smashing in the head of the good one and it having an effect. He’s so tired in DWIT that he let that side of himself take over until he could calm himself down enough with logic.

With the Duke in the driver’s seat, Virgil and Patton kept reacting to him, making Thomas afraid and feeling like a bad person. The only one unaffected was Logan, because he said that anything Remus did or said was unfounded and didn’t matter.

Only the reactions to his ideas mattered. Therefore, the throwing star to Logan’s head, and any other damage he afflicted had no effect because it meant nothing but to scare Thomas.

And Remus wouldn’t try to hurt Patton or Virgil because he needs them doing their job, keeping Thomas afraid. Roman would be the only one affected by the attack because Thomas’ creativities can’t both work at the same time unless something is done about it by Thomas. It was the same for WTIT, Roman was nowhere to be found until Remus left.

I really wonder if this issue between them will continue or be addressed in the finale. Since the asides have had so much time with Remus, it will be hard to NOT see him, even though him being counteractive the rest (supposedly, for now) is paramount to the storyline…

[part-time-zombie]

Im back with another theory/analysis yall!

A lot of folks are theorizing that the orange side is possessing/influencing Logan and working through him, which is understandable seeing how the orange side most likely represents anger and Logan is definitely feeling plenty of that right now.

However, upon revisiting a few episodes, I'm starting to think we've got it in reverse.

Yes, in WTIT Logan was clearly overcome by orange/anger, but he wasn't the only one who was frustrated.

Thomas was, too.

He was visibly overly frustrated by Nico not replying to his text, and it's his anger we see right before Logan's outburst, which he appears confused by.

If we remember in AA part 1, when they're discussing Virgil's disappearance, this exchange takes place;

("He" being thomas)

This directly states that a side can only influence each other through Thomas, be it by fear or anger.

Without his anxiety present, Thomas was incapable of being worried about anything, which in turn also made it so the sides couldn't feel fear either.

(They are a part of Thomas, after all... it would only make sense that their well-being/emotional state is tied to him)

I do understand that in some cases it does still work the other way around, particularly with Virgil giving Thomas reasons to worry and Thomas's heartbreak being reflected primarily on Patton while Logan was unaffected, but it seems like Thomas still remains the key aspect as to where those emotions spread out to, or where they come from.

So ultimately, the only reason the orange side managed to have that effect on Logan was because it was Thomas's anger that channeled him, and Logan's own anger just made him susceptible to a sort of "contamination" once orange was present.

[halloween4life]

The Orange Side is going to represent Impulsiveness and the rest of y'all are wrong: a thread

For obvious reasons the title of this post is a joke. But anyway, hi hello. I wanted to talk about my theory of what I think the Orange Side is gonna be! Now this post is going to be looong so for the sake of everyone it's going to be put under the cut.

Disclaimers that I want to get out of the way now: I have just recently re-entered the fandom and I haven't been into Sanders Sides in years. I'm not a Patreon supporter nor do I have Twitter so I lack any information that may have been revealed there. Also I am still in the process of rewatching the series. So as of now, I don't really have a complete understanding of the series. I apologize if I get anything wrong, and if any of this puts you off, totally valid.

Oh also, general spoilers for like, anything Sanders Sides related but specifically Working Through Intrusive Thoughts (if you still somehow have not watched it). Honestly I recommend watching it before reading this as a refresher, because most of this theory is based around/supported by that video. It's like, really the only foundation for this theory as I don't really delve much into the other episodes.

First things first, I am going to lay down some rules on what the Orange Side could represent:

1) The concept needs to in some way be the "opposite" of logic. Realistically this doesn't have to be the case in the series, but based on how the other Dark Sides function, it makes the most sense for now.

2) The concept needs to be generally considered negative for them to be considered a Dark Side.

3) Whatever they represent needs to REALISTICALLY make sense as an aspect of C! Thomas' identity. I think a lot of people forget that the Sides are that, Sides of a whole person. So I tried my best to make that work.

Now, with that out of the way,,,I'm going to "debunk" some theories first. Yes sorry there is a lot of set up to this theory, but I feel like it's important. Also, reminder, if you believe in either of the theories I am going to debunk, that is TOTALLY 100% VALID! I'm just going to discuss why I don't think they work, so this is all just my opinion!

Theory 1: The Orange Side represents Rage

I'm pretty sure this is the most popular theory right now, and I know a lot of people also disagree with it. I think this one mostly came about because our only real evidence of the Orange Side is through Logan's anger fueled outbursts in WTIT and Learning New Things About Ourselves. While I definitely understand this line of thinking, I don't think it's right.

First and foremost, it breaks the third rule set up earlier. Again, all these characters are facets of Thomas' personality. And from what we've seen of him, it just doesn't make sense with his personality. Now, again, this could obviously be different in the series, we could learn that this is actually his rage and he's just been repressing it, but I doubt that'll be the case. (Also I feel like this could break the first rule but I don't know how to explain why).

Secondly, and I just think that rage in and of itself is just, way too specific of a concept to be represented by a side. This kinda works in tandem with the first point, since again, it just doesn't seem that large of an aspect of Thomas that it would be represented by its own side. As well, all the other sides represent either much larger concepts or multiple at a time. For instance, Logan, Patton, and Roman represent logic, morality, and (good) creativity respectively. While Virgil and Janus do represent anxiety and deceit, those titles are rather reductive, as they also represent vigilance and self-preservation respectively. (Really I think we need to talk more about the fact that Janus is canonically Thomas' self-preservation but is really only viewed as "deceit"). Remus is a fun case as although he is viewed as "intrusive thoughts", he as a whole represents the bad side of creativity. TLDR: Rage is too specific a concept to be its own side.

Theory 2: The Orange Side Represents Emotion

Okay I'm going to be honest, I've only seen one person on here with this theory (and for the life of me I can't remember their name). But I just want to say that if you are reading this, this isn't me calling you out or anything (honestly I really agreed with your theory until I came up with this one). If I remember correctly, this theory is more built on the Orange Side being an opposite to logic, and how emotions tend to cloud logic, similar to the reasoning for rage.

I think this theory most obviously breaks rule 2. Now emotions as a whole do have the capacity to be bad, I think the concept of just emotion is not generally considered bad. Definitely not enough for it to be considered along with the Dark Sides. It's simply too big of a concept to be either "good" or "bad".

On that subject, I think this theory has a similar issue to the rage theory, but in the opposite direction. While rage was too specific, emotions are waaay too broad to just be one singular side. Especially given that all of the current sides have some sway over Thomas' emotions. And it's also possible that this side would be considered too close to Patton. While yes, it is not explicitly stated that he is in charge of Thomas' emotions, he definitely has the most sway over them. Ultimately, I think this theory is just too vague to work.

Okay, now with that all out of the way, let's get into my actual theory. So,

Why do I think the Orange Side will represent Impulsiveness?

I'm going to start this off by comparing my claims to the rules I made up. Because tbh, that's how I came to the conclusion in the first place before I started finding evidence to support it (but isn't that how all good hypotheses work?)

1) Does impulsiveness act as a counter to logic?

According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, Impulsive is defined as "prone to sudden illogical changes of mind, ideas, or actions". Now I was gonna go on a big explanation of how they are opposites but it literally says illogical in the definition. So uh, yayy 🎉🎉🎉

2) Is impulsiveness seen as a negative thing?

Now, truthfully there is no way for me to prove that impulsiveness is either "good" or "bad". That being said, I feel like a lot of people generally view impulsiveness as a bad thing. While in small amounts it can be seen as good and fun, the more frequently you engage in impulsive behaviors, the more destructive it can become. Often leading to bad decision making, i.e. avoiding work, making big financial decisions without much thought, and generally just doing what you want over what may be important.

3) Does this fit within Thomas' personality?

Yes. It has been shown time and time again that Thomas has an issue with his impulsive behaviors. Oftentimes manifesting in him avoiding chores and general self-care in favor of doing something easy or entertaining. The most clear example of this being the video "Growing Up." While yes, most of these decisions are made due to Patton, it's not entirely uncommon for the sides to be affected or swayed by the others. (Also if I'm being honest, I don't think it entirely fair to analyze the earlier episodes with the same critical lens as the later ones, it's definitely not fair to Thomas (the real Thomas) to criticize the early episodes for not perfectly aligning with later lore).

Now, finally, we can get into some evidence to support all these claims I'm making. First things first, as of right now Logan and the Orange Side are one in the same. We haven't been given any proof that they are at least physically different beings (unless you want to count the orange eyes in the Sanders Sides anime intro parody). So all of our evidence is just Logan acting really out of character. So, where does Logan act impulsively?

Our first major incident of this (I'm pretty sure) is in the episode "Learning New Things About Ourselves", specifically the scene where Roman essentially pisses him off so much that he throw's a crumpled up note card at him. Most important is his reaction afterwards, being shocked at himself.

He was basically pushed so far that he reacted without thinking (impulsively some may say? ok I'll stop, I'm sorry). Which, obviously, is EXTREMELY out of character for him. He is logic, he is supposed to think first before he acts, go through possible scenarios and decide the most favorable outcome. Yet, here he loses all control.

Our next example is less of Logan acting impulsive and more so how I believe his actions are affecting Thomas. In the episode "Working Through Intrusive Thoughts", Thomas basically spends the whole time being tormented by Remus because he can't keep his mind off of the risky text he sent Nico (I'm aroace but I'm gonna assume valid? So real?). While Logan is simultaneously trying to keep Thomas on schedule, accommodate his struggles, and accommodate Remus' actions as part of Thomas' identity. Basically, it's a lot, and when he's finally at his limit, well

Yeahhhh, a certain something makes itself known. And while Logan doesn't act particularly irrationally or impulsively in this moment (literally all he does is yell at Remus), it is what Thomas does after this outbreak that I find interesting. As immediately afterward he gets a call from Nico, inviting him out. And given the choice between what he has planned to do and needs to get done for the day, vs spending the day with Nico?

He decides suddenly to just drop everything he is doing for Nico. A rather impulsive decision if you ask me. And while yes, technically none of what Thomas was doing needed to get done that day (it was mostly chores), it was part of a plan and he promised himself to stick to it. Logan doesn't react well to any of this, both his own outburst and Thomas deciding to just leave him behind like it's nothing. And I don't think it's gonna spell anything good in the future for Logan and the rest of the gang.

So, where does that leave us now?

Well, moving a bit on to what I think is going to happen next. Obviously things are going to get worse before they get better. Logan will fall more and more into impulsive behaviors, which will only become more destructive for Thomas. As well, I think (hope, pray) that there will be some sort of team up between Logan and Remus. They're the only sides who I think could "properly" get along (I know that Janus and Remus have some sort of friendship, but it can only work so well as Janus being self-preservation can only really run counter to Remus' intrusive thoughts). Most likely they will feed into each other in a horrible cycle of "I can make him worse." I don't think that would be either of their genuine intentions, as I don't like labeling the Dark Sides and "bad", but I definitely don't think they would be good for each other. I do also think this will come about because Remus either knows or understands something about Logan that the others don't, not even Janus. As well I do hope that Logan and the Orange Side are one in the same somehow, and not just Logan being influenced.

Anyway, sorry for the insanely long post and sorry if it started to devolve towards the end. I am quite literally writing this on no hours of sleep, so give me a bit of grace. Also, another sorry if I have gotten anything wrong or if I have missed something. It has been very long since I've engaged with Sanders Sides, but I'm trying my best. Anyway, thank you for coming to my ted-talk, I hope Logan gets to commit murder in the next episode.

[intrulogical]

remus isn't dumb; a sanders sides essay

i've been struggling to make a cohesive post about this because i feel like most of what i want to say boils down to the same underlying message which is: remus isn't dumb.

i feel like a good chunk of this fandom understands what i mean, at least to a surface level point. but even then, i think too much of the fandom still misinterprets remus' character in a way that, they seem to understand different traits of his, but the way they execute it is still way off from what we see in canon.

(rest of the essay under the cut!)

for example, the biggest thing i see people get wrong would be the way they write remus "lol random" personality. it's true that remus tends to say whatever he wants at any given moment. but, the problem here is that people tend to think remus as random in function. i have no better way to describe this succinctly, so to expound: while remus tends to make left-field jokes a lot, he is shown to be incredibly deliberate, cunning, committed, and intelligent in very subtle ways.

truth is, remus is very goal-oriented, and when he has a goal, oh he strives for that goal. so far, i'm writing this with the last 5 years episode being the most recent substantial episode, so i can't really 100% say all my assumptions of remus are true. actually, i think the upcoming season finale will be the missing link when it comes to providing us with the whole picture of who remus is.

as for now, i just have to stick with my theory of; remus, as a side of thomas' heavily connected to insecurities and mental health issues, intends to shed light on the "darker" sides of thomas because he believes them to be beneficial. throughout dwit, we see remus continuously bolster the idea that his contributions are useful for thomas. this continues in wtit, but with the extra layer of remus wanting logan as well to be in touch with the darker parts of himself to get thomas in line.

it is also heavily implied that remus is well in on whatever janus' plan is to get thomas to be a.) more aware of his mental health issues, and b.) to get thomas to break out of his catholic black and white thinking. in forbidden fruit, it's janus who’s seen permitting remus to present himself to thomas. bigger evidence though, as i've mentioned in the previous paragraph, is the way remus seems to deliberately want logan to manifest his anger against thomas.

of course, we can always say that remus taunted logan "just for fun", but i feel like too much of what happened in wtit seem to point to remus having deeper reasons. for example, wtit exhibits how bad thomas' mental health is to the point that he gets irrationally angry at nico for not replying to his texts. this proves how thomas has been neglecting his mental health, and with the way patton, virgil, and roman held onto toxic selfless ideologies for the longest time, thomas would still, naturally, be lost on what to do. he would even seem to deny how bad things have gotten, especially with the way he acts like nothing bad is happening when he goes to his date with nico.

why am i emphasizing this? well, it's because something i find interesting about remus' character is how deeply cognizant he is of thomas' problems. what i mean by this is, no other side can call out thomas' issues more than remus can. i wrote an essay about this before if you want to check this out, but tldr: remus, as intrusive thoughts, is the most perceptive out of all the sides when it comes to calling out insecurities or problems. we see this come to fruition in wtit when all of the traps he laid out for thomas involved nico in some capacity.

while you can interpret his character as evil for preying on others’ insecurities, i think it's important to acknowledge that, in a sea of people who tend to refuse to talk about their issues, remus is the main guy who constantly brings them to the table. whether remus' intentions are good or not, there's no denying that remus' importance as a side lies in the fact that he serves as a mental health alarm clock for thomas. with the way none of the sides want to communicate with each other, we need someone like remus to cut the bullshit and say things as it is. 

again, we don't really know if he wants to help thomas. but i would like to emphasize that, yes, remus is not dumb. he does not merely make lewd jokes and calls it a day. he has the long-term goal of making everyone talk about more "taboo" topics with each other, and this includes talking about personal grievances the sides tend to suppress or refuse to talk about. lewd jokes are just part of the process.

i think this goal of his is also incredibly visible with the way remus treated logan in wtit. wtit is my favorite sanders sides episode because there's just so much to analyze between remus and logan, but you can check my other essays in regards to that. the main thing i wanted to point out is that what remus says to logan in the end, "woowee logan, now you're speaking my language. but who do you really want to scream that at?", proves he is more deliberate and cunning than he seems.

a lovely bit of analysis my friend orb (@orbmanson7) provided is that remus didn't just pop up in wtit to intervene with thomas' plans. he was there to intervene with logan's. if you've seen my other essays, i've talked about how logan as a side has been dwindling in terms of self-confidence and assertion. this has left a big problem of thomas being more reliant on his emotions, making him ignore the suggestions given by logan that may help with thomas' mental health in the long run. this is not to villainize thomas' mental health crisis, btw. all i want to say is that, remus recognizes how logan's self-restriction is doing no good and deliberately wants to push logan to become more assertive and angry.

that is why he says logan is speaking his language. he wants logan to recognize the merit in the way remus grabs thomas' attention. he wants logan to be like him and cause more havoc. again, we never know how much remus genuinely wants to help thomas, but we know that remus wants everyone to be more exposed to "taboo" things, and this includes logan being more in touch with his angrier side.

besides that, i'd like to mention how, in general, remus tends to be very committed to his goals more than how the fandom typically portrays him? in dwit, remus' main goal was to disturb thomas and the other sides. it's kind of just an introduction to his character. we're not sure if it's part of a bigger plan he and janus devised to get thomas to take care of himself better, but it is a possibility. the only time he gets too random is when logan begins picking apart his arguments. there we see remus only results to super left-field, continuous off-tangent jokes when he's desperate or placed in a lose-lose situation.

another, in wtit, we see how remus understands how to make very long, complicated traps. i think it's a perfect encapsulation of his personality, actually! throughout the episode, we see him make these multilayered traps with a ton of props and preparation just so he can bother thomas with it. it shows that remus is actually less impulsive-oriented as he seems. he even created a schedule he showed to logan detailing everything he wanted to do that day. again, deliberate! he is deliberate and very smart!

other thing i'd like to harken back to is the idea that he's in cahoots with the other dark sides to execute some Big Plan to break thomas out of his black and white thinking. while we don't know how orange acts like yet, we're Very familiar with janus by this point and we can see how long-drawn janus' plan of acceptance is. he's, again, sorry to use the word so many times, very deliberate. i don't even think his plan ends with svs.r, because it does seem like remus is well in on this plan too. in the 5 years video, he also seems to know more than thomas on what else is to come for the future of sanders sides, which implies he has some plans up his sleeve that no one else knows about. like i said, janus has the goal to break thomas out of his black and white thinking. and so far from what we've seen from remus, he also wants the same!

an important factor of remus' character besides his deliberateness is his general need to subvert what "goodness" means. "good and bad are all made up nonsense," he sings in forbidden fruit. throughout dwit he continuously criticizes everything thomas thinks is good or acceptable. in the 5 years video, he argues about how there's no "correct way of sitting". i think this also proves how remus is important as a side because, while not every single one of his beliefs are morally acceptable, he is still able to pick morality apart in a way the other sides are unable to. also, i just think this proves his character as just. generally smart? he's able to pick apart the status quo and moral philosophies, of course he's smart.

just to pick up on a previous point, remus is scarily perceptive. i mentioned this earlier with how remus is able to pick logan apart, but i'd like to add onto it more since i think a lot of people underestimate how crazily perceptive he is. for one, despite not being too close with a bunch of the other sides, he seems to be able to read their insecurities and play them against them really well. we see it in the way he uses virgil's insecurities of being an ex-dark side against him. we see it in the way he picks on patton and thomas' morality crisis against them. we see it in the way roman describes remus as someone being able to show him things he doesn't like about himself. and most importantly, we see it in the way remus constantly reaps the fact that logan isn't listened to to the point that logan snaps. as intrusive thoughts, remus' job is to see what deepest darkest secrets thomas and the sides suppress and use it against them.

at the moment, we don't really know if remus has any weaknesses, although wtit sort of implies that he himself is also quite irritated by the fact that thomas doesn't listen to him. he does a good way of hiding, though, how much of that problem is genuinely affecting him. it makes me think he's also smart in the way he's able to hide his vulnerabilities and true intentions from the other side. he's silly and goofy and lewd and because of that, everyone thinks he's harmless. the sides think he's unserious, and so does the fandom. but deep down, remus really isn't that stupid. 

and LASTLY, when beta reading this essay, orb also mentioned to me about how remus possesses cognitive flexibility in a way roman doesn’t. this isn’t meant to discredit roman of course, but i think it’s important to mention that remus is the side with the least amount of restrictions when it comes to creative liberties. orb mentioned to me how remus is able to connect concepts easily in a way roman doesn’t because remus doesn’t operate under the same self-restrictive mindset. while this obviously would help thomas become more innovative as a creative, i think it’s also important to recognize how much thomas kind of needs it in general. much of the latter half of the series shows thomas dealing with restrictions, especially when it comes to doing good. it would be great benefit for thomas to be able to listen to a side who generally wants to Have a Good Time, and doesn’t abide by rules imposed onto them.

and yes that is my essay on remus 100/10 best character and is not dumb at all. very excited to see him in the finale and i hope y’all’s get your characterizations straight because i need me some good fics 

[yourelost-itsokay]

sanders sides season finale crack theories in order from most to least likely

1. orange!logan vs roman. theyve both had their big insecurities this season. i don't feel like roman's issues have been properly addressed. roman representing romance vs. logan representing order and gettting your shit together. the end card of WTIT where roman dismisses logan's feelings on the matter. roman wants love so desperately, even though i get the feeling that c!thomas may not be ready for a relationship in his current mental state. roman & logan fight all the time, and then make up, and then fight some more, and this is the loop

2. roman & logan antagonist duo. maybe they both snap at the same time & form an alliance. that'd be cool. honestly this is me coping because i think logan villain arc is quite likely but i think roman could be even more dramatic as an antagonist than janus and tbh i wrote a fanfic about a roman villain arc after "putting others first" came out so that'd be validation

3. roman & logan fuse and that's who orange is. i just think that'd be cool. they both have the temper, so it compounds into one much angrier side with the power of repression². i think thomas could pull this off, and he likes steven universe so there's a very very tiny chance this is possible

[justyourtypicaltuesday]

So What's Up With Logan? - a speculating post for the season 2 finale

While I, like everyone else, am anticipating the season finale, I thought I might as well summarise my thoughts in a post.

In LNTAO, Logan outright explains he's irritated with being repeatedly ignored.

"There will be times in which I must be heeded and given our... current circumstances... I clearly haven't been."

This really stands out to me. It's no secret that due to being consistently talked over, shut up and disregarded, Logan's struggling to deal with his emotions- and keep up the facade he puts up pretending he doesn't have any. This is only evidenced further when he throws paper at Roman. But this quote almost feels like foreshadowing, suggesting that there will come a time Logan's the only side with the right answer, and because of the sides and c!Thomas' practice, they won't listen to him and will exacerbate the problem doing so.

Another interesting quote from LNTAO is hidden in plain sight- the overlapping verses from Logan and Thomas in Incomplete.

"This just serves as a testament to the fact that you have a temperament, which is fine, you just haven't accepted it, if you'd let them finish they'd get to the-"

"This just serves as a testament to the fact that to me you're negligent, which is fine, it just works to your detriment, you not letting me finish is proving my-"

Both verses here provide context into Logan's character. This confirms that c!Thomas is fully aware that Logan has emotions, specifically a temper, and that, in his eyes, the song was an attempt to get Logan to accept that part of himself. This could be setting up a very powerful scene in the finale, Janus and/or Thomas confronting Logan at a point when Logan pretending he doesn't have emotions is actually damaging Thomas as a whole.

Additionally, Logan feels neglected by Thomas. That's a word which is not used lightly. He points out that being ignored is actively causing detriment to Thomas, which he conveniently doesn't hear as he's talking (singing?) over him at this point in time.

They're both right. Logan is ignored to the point of detriment, but he also thinks highly of himself ("I'm the most important side here!") and often disregards the others' contributions until he's actively proven wrong. This is a repeated character flaw of Logan's. It's also seen Growing Up, Moving On, and even in Asides like Can Plushies Improve Our Health?. While Logan's been the cause of minor conflicts in the series, having him cause a problem on a scale similar to Patton in POF would be intriguing to see from a narrative standpoint. It's clear that in the latest episodes, Logan is struggling and maybe at some point soon, constantly being antagonised by c!Thomas and the other sides is going to have an effect.

This brings me to WTIT. This is the last plot-dependent episode we've had, so it naturally is where a lot of my theories are coming from. While we can see a lot of Logan's progress as a character- specifically in prioritising Thomas' mental health- we also see his lowest point so far. Thomas' mental health has been steadily declining since SvS, introducing Remus, the discussions during POF and this episode all make it obvious. And this is reflected in Logan. Despite taking precautions and relaxing the schedule so Thomas feels comfortable, Logan loses his cool when he yells at Remus. What the orange eyes mean is TBD, but Logan's emotions in that moment say one thing and one thing only: he can't keep it down much longer. Each time we see Logan lately, he's been more and more distressed. In LTNAO, he throws paper at Roman, in SvS he's left out. In DWIT he's exasperated the whole time trying to calm down the others. In POF he's clearly done with exerting any amount of effort getting them to listen to him. And here is the result of all that pent up anger.

"I just want to help Thomas become the best version of himself he can be, and in order to do that, he needs to listen to me. Unlike yours, my methods aren't the flashiest, and it's not very often I get the chance to get through to him. Please understand my insistence on the matter."

The words right before his outburst mean a lot too. Logan's been already established as a perfectionist, but here he outwardly admits his goal is to improve Thomas as much as possible. We've already seen c!Thomas second-guessing himself because of difference in opinion between sides, so here's an opportunity to explore Janus v Logan conflict. Logan questioning Janus' advice to Thomas to take it easy could mean that the rest isn't as effective as it could be and cause a problem they'll need to discuss. Logan's been largely absent from Janus-related episodes, so an argument in which Janus explains Thomas has worth as he is while Logan is focused on perfectionism and improvement is not unbelievable at this point in the story.

On the topic of Janus, I believe he's going to play a huge role in Logan's character development. The main thing holding Logan back is that he's lying to himself. He repeatedly insinuates and sometimes outwardly states that he doesn't have feelings, and both c!Thomas and Janus know this is a lie.

"I don't feel anything."

"Oh, of course you don't."

My theory is that Janus, as practically a living lie detector, is going to confront the sides about the lies they tell themselves, and being more truthful about themselves will help Thomas long-term. While this can be explored for each side, I'll save that for a post for another day and point out how specifically Logan's lie about not having feelings is already questioned multiple times in the series, setting it up to be confronted soon.

In conclusion, my speculations for the season finale are:

Logan's going to have another outburst- in full view of c!Thomas and the other sides this time, and it will have to be addressed.

Janus/Thomas and Logan are going to confront each other, Logan over being repeatedly ignored and sidelined, and the others over Logan consistently lying about not feeling emotions.

Logan is going to be the outright antagonist in at least one episode of the finale, along the lines of Patton in POF.

On the contrary, in one episode Logan will have the right answer, but be ignored because... well, duh.

Janus v Logan conflict is going to be a large plot point- addressing perfectionism and to what extent you should accept yourself as you are and to what extent you need to work on growth.

If you got this far, thanks for reading. It's my first post as a blog and I hope you enjoyed reading my guesses to what we'll see surrounding Logan in the finale. I'm planning on continuing with in-depth analysis of other sides and other theories I have, but so far this is what I've gathered in regards to Logan's direction at this point in the series.

[keitaisghost]

I just had a thought right now about the orange side. We know that orange has some resemblance to Logan and usually shows up when Logan is mad. And we all know that every side has some good and bad aspects for c!Thomas. I personally think that orange has something to do with shame or at least has something to do with people not wanting to realize their wrong.

In LNTAO, Roman makes fun of Logan because Logan had put the word *figuratively* in his sentence. Therefore that led on to Logan throwing paper at Roman.

Now, in WTIT, Logan is upset that Remus is ignoring him, and so he gets upset.

Also, thanks to @analoceits theory(thank you for your theory) about the orange side, I made a better connection for my train of thought. In their post, they said, "Logan is logic, yes, but he is also anger now." And that made me think. You know something that people don't like? Being corrected or being shamed for something they do or have done. Which leads to anger or denial.

Orange has shown up when Logan was shamed by Roman and ignored by Remus. People would get upset when overshadowed or made fun of.

Next, let's talk about Roman. Roman is c!Thomas's ego and creativity. We've seen Roman lose some ego and not believe Thomas when he said Roman is his hero. Sometimes, people feel shameful when they are corrected or their ego is bruised.

And because Roman feels hurt, c!Thomas's ego might also feel hurt. Logan is his logical side, and when someone's logic is usually contradicted, they would feel ashamed and mad or they would feel lied to when their wrong.

These events happening are likely the reason orange is showing up more recent(also Janus being here, but that's beside the point)

[radioactive-dazey]

*Swipes my entire desk clear, knocks over the bulletin board covered in photographs and red string, aggressively shakes my fists at the sky*

JANUS REPRESENTS IGNORANCE

TURNING A BLIND EYE (being willfully ignorant) IS AN ACT OF LYING TO YOURSELF

ALL OF MY "IGNORANCE = ORANGE SIDE" THEORIES JUST NEED TO APPLY TO JANUS AT THIS POINT

The entire fucking WTIT episode Thomas is distracted and upset and intrusive thoughts are invading his brain and he can't do anything

Then Logan the cool teacher man is like "I shall help you" and does so, RIGHT ??

*Shakes you aggressively* RIGHT?!

At the end of the episode Thomas dips after Logan was helping him and hes like "its not *that* bad ill get to it another day"

And Logan stands there like "?? Tf?"

Then Janus takes a bite out of that fucking apple at the end card. How does it relate? Uhh- I dunno I'll get back to you on that

Edit: HERES THE THEORY (not the original but one of them) I MADE WAY BACK

ITS SO OBVIOUS LOOKING BACK NOW

[emoprincey]

Is Logan the orange side?

After Logan portrayed Anger in the recent inside-out themed video, this seems relevant again, especially with Logan's pointed remark about how he was cast as anger because they "both wear neckties and for no other reason". Anger is a pretty common theory for the orange side's role, and one that I happen to like, but does this mean Logan actually is the orange side? Let's find out...

There is a pretty strong case for Logan being the orange side. In Working Through Intrusive Thoughts, when Logan yelled at Remus, his eyes literally glowed orange.

However, I have some reasons why this might not be the case.

The first reason is that it would simply be bad writing. The orange side has been hyped up for years at this point. Working Through Intrusive Thoughts came out in the summer of 2021, but the orange side's presence was hinted at in the thumbnail of Selfishness vs Selflessness redux, which came out in 2020. All the sides were shown as selectable options on a screen, along with a seventh greyed out figure.

[Image description: A screenshot of the thumbnail for Selfishness vs Selflessness redux, which shows Patton and Roman on a screen with pixilated avatars of themselves. In the middle are the words "You vs. Yourself". Underneath this are six boxes, each with a picture of one of the Sanders Sides, and a seventh box with a grey silhouette. / End image description.]

I wasn't in the fandom back then, but from what I've heard theories about the orange side actually originated with the colour orange being used in merch along with the colours representing the other sides. All this has led people to believe a new character will be introduced. And if that new character turns out to be one of the already established main characters, that would be pretty underwhelming.

Secondly, it was confirmed in Selfishness vs Selflessness that there are more than two dark sides, not counting Virgil. After Janus leaves, Virgil tells Thomas to "not allow him or any of his friends stick around that long." That's friends, plural. Clearly, he's not talking about himself, since he does want to be around Thomas. He's talking about Janus and two or more other people. Remus is one of these, and from what we can tell, the orange side must be another. Virgil seems to trust Logan, so unless Logan has some kind of secret identity as the orange side that Virgil is unaware of, he wasn't talking about him.

I think Logan was cast as Anger in this video because he is known to have angry outbursts, as seen in Learning New Things About Ourselves and WTIT. I think the orange side is using him as a vessel to channel anger through, rather than Logan actually being the orange side.

Whether the orange side represents anger or not, I think this remark was more about Logan's own emotions and how he tries to hide them, than anything to do with another side.

[sanderssideswriting]

To me the Orange Side is kinda like the juxtaposition of the secrent 4th episode of Sherlock season 4.

The secent fourth episode of Sherlock season 4 for all that don’t know was a theory that there was a secret fourth episode that’d make season 4 into a good season and explain everything. It didn’t exist and fans had to accept that season 4 was actually shit. And it was shit, very shit.

But the point here is that fans were told to look at everything like it was a clue to something bigger, something better. And they looked for it, and were ultimately disappointed with what they found.

And to me that’s the opposite of Sanders Sides and of course the Orange Side. Thomas keeps “teasing” us and giving us “hints” that theres another side. There’s so many here’s a list of ones I can think of off the top of my head.

“Hello” in the episode after svs that’s during the boss fight where in orange numbers that spell out hello when turned upside down.

Logan’s eyes turning orange in WTIT.

There was a voice over at one point in an end card where it’s implied that Orange was impersonating Remus or something.

The orange eyes in the background of the anime intro.

Thomas’s you tube banner where someone’s watching from behind the fence with a sinister grin.

(Not sure how much this one counts but I’ll put it down anyway) in a merch drop around 2020 or so he had new shirts with flowers with the sides colors. (Not the rainbow, there was light and dark blue) with an orange flower with the rest.

And I’m sure there are others.

Basically, we’ve seen the hints. We know there’s an orange side. But there’s been no delivery of him. I assume because the Orange side will pop up in the finale at some point. Istg if he doesn’t I’m losing my shit.

But yeah. Ramble over.

[vaguehotels]

thats soso crazy its soo weird to me that WTIT is considered first orange side ep. like all the hints (numbers, extra space) in the videogame episode (SVS Redux?? idr KJASNKDN) along with just. Rainbow theory being a thing since before remus' introduction??? IDK ITS INTERESTING TO ME TO SEE YOUR PERSPECTIVE OF THE SERIES AS A (relative) NEW TSS ENJOYER YKWIM. i still remember Learning New Things About Ourselves/ the puppet episode coming out and omg wait when was that. 2018. OH MY GOD. KJANSKJDNKAJSNDK

i would LOVE to hear what the numbers hint is omg... also yeah i was so late on it and the way that i watched the series was in a way that i never saw the comments or dates that the vids were released so that def affected how i theorized? also i speedwatched it all in about 2 nights. so there was that . but AUHHGHH 2018???? its wild how long this has been going on. the 5 year anniversary episode came out in like... 2022. 2 entire years ago.

[selfdestructivecat]

Do you know what time it is?

That’s right, folks! It’s time for…

Another! Random! Theory!

(Featuring our favorite sassy Dark Sides: Virgil and Janus!)

So, the story of Sanders Sides. We love it, right? The slowly escalating drama, the growing tension between all of the Sides, the breaking point looming on the horizon like the consequences of every bad decision we’ve ever made…

The story also has the added complexity of doubling as a metaphor for our own personal inner turmoils. That’s what the show is about, after all, right? That courtroom battle between Patton and Janus wasn’t just two characters fighting for the moral high ground; it represented a very relatable dilemma, where someone was placed in a difficult situation where they would have to choose between opportunity and the supposed “right thing to do”. Logan and Virgil’s debate wasn’t just two characters arguing; it represented how anxiety can impact our ability to reach logical conclusions.

And while not all of the analogies are perfect (and we can’t expect them to be), the way the Sides interact with each other has always had that fascinating double meaning that has provoked interesting reflections and discussions.

However, one point that I’ve seen being made by some people, and one that I happen to agree with, is that one dynamic doesn’t quite fit with the others. While it is certainly interesting from a story and character perspective, it doesn’t make much sense given the context of the Sanders Sides universe. These two characters, due to their aspects, don’t seem to have much of a reason to harbor bad blood. And yet, these two loathe each other, arguably more than any other pairing in the entire series.

Of course, I am talking about Virgil and Janus.

Now, this hatred between the characters is interesting and, well, confusing, for two main reasons. First, this hatred seems to stem from something we, as the viewers, don’t know about yet. From their very first interaction on-screen, they are immediately trading insults.

“And Virgil, I adore the more intense eyeshadow, it totally doesn’t make you look like a raccoon.”

“Nice gloves. Did you just finish washing some dishes?”

(Janus and Virgil, “Can Lying Be Good”)

Not only are these insults the first things they say to each other, but there is also a familiarity to this back-and-forth. Virgil was ready with a retort, like he expected Janus’ insult and was prepared to fight back. This animosity between them isn’t anything new.

However, it is never explained. And given how this is the first time c!Thomas has seen the two interact (as well as, obviously, the first time he’s seen Deceit period), their distain for each other stems from something Thomas isn’t aware of.

And this leads us to our second reason why this dynamic doesn’t quite fit in the context of the show: it doesn’t appear to stem from an internal conflict from Thomas. At least, not one we are aware of. Otherwise, it would have been a video, or at least mentioned in passing.

The show has set a precedent towards explaining why certain characters don’t get along. Roman and Virgil were notoriously antagonistic toward each other in season 1, to the point where Roman basically declared Virgil his enemy. And they very clearly explained this: Roman puts Thomas in danger by ignoring Virgil’s warnings, and Virgil prevents Thomas from achieving Roman’s dreams by weighing him down with fear. Their dislike for one another made sense.

Currently, Logan and Remus don’t get along. Remus is, by his very definition, illogical. His demands make absolutely no sense. Why would Thomas kill his brother? What purpose would he have to jump out of a moving car? Of course Logan would be frustrated with him! And Logan has also proven to be a source of frustration for Remus, as he repeatedly hindered Remus’ schemes in WTIT. Their aspects directly contradict each other, and even hinder each other. Logan’s logic is the greatest weapon against intrusive thoughts, and Remus’ distressing brand of “creativity” is strong enough to pull Thomas away from Logan’s logical reassurances and routine.

Hell, even Roman and Janus’ hatred for each other makes sense. While their goals aligned at first with the callback, Roman ultimately decided that, as Thomas’ drive and desire, he wanted Thomas to be a good person more than he wanted that callback. And even now, after SvSR, he still wants Thomas to be a good person! That’s why he had such a prominent role in SvSR, even though it was primarily a debate between Patton (morality) and Janus (selfishness). Roman wanted that callback desperately. So why was he still engaging in this discussion? Why wasn’t he just siding with Janus? Because he wanted Patton to prove that he made the right choice. He wanted his desires to be justified. Even after all this time, he wanted Thomas to be a good person more than he wanted that callback. And in that moment, Janus was fighting against that desire. Janus was his enemy.

But what about Janus and Virgil? Where does their relationship fit into all of this? How are their aspects in conflict?

Because looking at it at face value, it doesn’t make any sense.

Why do we lie? Well, in most cases, it’s because we fear consequences for something we did and are trying to escape them. We lie because we are scared. We lie to protect ourselves.

Well, that’s odd. It seems like, not only do Virgil and Janus seem to be working towards the same thing, but that they often work together hand in hand. Think about “Can Lying Be Good”. In every scenario acted out, Thomas lied because he was afraid of the consequences of telling the truth. He will get fired from his job, he will hurt a friend in mourning, he will traumatize a young child. Yes, there were definitely other factors contributing to his choice to lie in each scenario, but I think we can probably all agree that there was strong, underlying fear motivating these lies. Virgil (and, of course, Janus) was trying to protect Thomas through these lies.

So if there doesn’t seem to be any conflict of interest, then why the hell do Virgil and Janus hate each other so much?

Well, one possible reason (and one of the most commonly accepted headcanons I’ve seen) is that they had a falling out in their past, possibly driven by Virgil leaving the other Dark Sides. And yeah, this is very juicy drama that adds some interesting character depth to both of these Sides, but in terms of how the show has dealt with all of the characters and how they interact with each other as aspects of a personality, it’s a bit… disappointing, for a lack of a better word. What are we supposed to learn from this conflict? How can we, as viewers, compare this bitterness between Virgil and Janus to strife between our own anxiety and our tendency to lie?

So I’m going to propose another possibility for this conflict, one that may be slightly less interesting than the mostly-accepted headcanon, but is much more satisfying in my opinion.

So, Anxiety and Deceit… how can these two contradict each other? Well, to narrow things a bit, I will declare right out of the gate that Janus’ role as self-preservation doesn’t fight against Virgil’s role at all. While anxiety can lead someone to make decisions that can harm more than help (such as freezing rather than acting or running away in a dangerous situation), anxiety’s ultimate purpose is to protect. Fear is self-preservation at its core.

So instead, let’s focus on the facet of deceit. As we’ve previously established, most lies are told out of fear. So this would suggest that these two can’t contradict each other, right? Well, no. While we lie mostly out of fear, the act of lying can be very anxiety-inducing. In fact, I’d say that’s a pretty common fear a lot of people have.

Especially, say, if someone was terrified of being a bad person, and was convinced that the act of lying contributed to a lack of morality.

This is HUGE in the context of season 2! The pivotal conflict of this season is Thomas trying to figure out what makes someone a good person. He wants to be a good person so badly that he is terrified of the idea that he may not be one. Patton’s entire driving force behind fighting so hard to prove that he’s right, that Thomas is good in both SvS and SvSR, is because he wants to reassure Thomas. Because he loves Thomas so much that he can’t stand to see him look so scared.

“I don’t want to be a bad person…”

“…Ok. Then I’ll do whatever I can to make sure you’re not.”

(Thomas and Patton, “Selfishness v. Selflessness”)

“Like I told you before, sometimes I don’t know the way. But when I told you that, you were so scared. I couldn’t bear it. So I said to myself: ‘Alright, Patton. Thomas needs you. You’re responsible for his morality. You can never not have an answer for him.’ And then I promised you that I would keep fighting.”

(Patton, “Putting Others First - Selfishness v. Selflessness Redux”)

Virgil wasn’t present at all during the redux, and he had a very minimal role in the original court trial. So one would think that anxiety plays a very minor role in this conflict. But that couldn’t be further from the truth. Fear is at the very center of it all. Thomas wants to be a good person because he is terrified of the alternative. He’s so terrified of this possibility that he spirals, arguing with himself and desperately trying to justify his feelings of frustration after the wedding, grasping for an answer that would make him feel justified in his anger without jeopardizing his integrity.

But that answer doesn’t exist. And it terrifies him. It terrifies Virgil.

Janus’ proposal, that Thomas should act more selfishly and prioritize himself more, challenges everything Thomas believes in. Based on the rules previously established, rules Patton had repeatedly endorsed, doing what Janus says would make Thomas a bad person, something Thomas fears. And finally, we reach our point of conflict between the two main subjects of this discussion.

Virgil wants Thomas to be a good person because they both fear the alternative. Listening to Janus would mean allowing the terrifying possibility of becoming a bad person. And Virgil doesn’t want that.

And you know what? That also explains another strange character dynamic that emerged following SvSR! This explains why Virgil is so mad at Patton!

Because sure, the idea that Virgil is upset that Patton hurt his bff Roman is absolutely adorable, but is that really all there is to it? It’s a very drastic change in attitude, especially considering that Patton and Virgil were incredibly close before the whole wedding fiasco (and I would go so far as to say that Patton was the person Virgil trusted more than anyone. He was the first to fully accept Virgil, after all.)

But if Patton started to act in a way that went against Virgil’s aspect, like if he started making decisions (or letting someone else make decisions) that added a lot of fear and uncertainty into Thomas’ life, then suddenly Virgil’s icy demeanor towards the fatherly Side makes a lot more sense. Patton’s choice to start trusting Janus and to allow Thomas to make more selfish decisions wasn’t just a betrayal to Roman and his decision to forgo the callback, it was also a betrayal to Virgil and the security Patton had previously given him. It’s like if your parents had made the decision to suddenly move your family to a different place without your approval, completely uprooting your life and sense of security and thrusting you into a different, uncertain, and scary environment.

And it’s been repeatedly established, in both season 1 and season 2, that Virgil despises change! Routine is safe. Familiarity is safe. Change is bad. Janus is proposing, and Patton is supporting, a HUGE change in the way Thomas should approach his life and the decisions he makes from here on out! Of course Virgil would be mad!

So I have a feeling that Virgil’s role in this entire situation is far from over. And we’ve got FOUR entire parts planned for the season finale, suggesting that we have a lot of ground to cover. I would be very surprised if Virgil didn’t have a few choice words for Janus and Patton, and I for one can’t wait to see where everyone stands when the dust finally settles.

[part-time-zombie]

Donyou think Thomas is gonna have a new side,,

I have plenty of theories about there being a seventh side with an orange color scheme and representing anger or something similar, and i feel it's been foreshadowed in quite a few videos (especially WTIT), so if I'm right this side will likely be revealed very soon.

There have been theories that the orange side is somehow related to Logan, or that Logan is/will be the orange side, but i personally believe that the orange side is a separate character, one who was only able to "corrupt" Logan secondhandedly by first influencing c!thomas and having his anger spread over to Logan's frustrations.

In fact, I had a dream about the orange side reveal a little bit ago. He wore a black sleeveless shirt with bright orange pants and black combat boots, with wicked punk makeup and black fingerless gloves. In the dream I remember him forcibly confronting the other sides by tying them to chairs and taping their mouths shut so he can properly yell at them.

Before things could intensify any further, though, the dream quickly shifted by showing a blooper of Thomas cracking up while doing a scene as the orange side, which i somehow knew was called "Grudge" despite it not being explicitly stated in the dream.

But yeah, I could be wrong lol

[matt-w-blogging]

So far every side name has two syllables.

Ro/man.

Ja/nus. (or Jan/us, depends on how you say it)

Re/mus.

Pat/ton.

Lo/gan.

Vir/gil.

Even Thom/as and Ni/co have two syllables.

Heck, even E/mile and Re/my have two syllables.

What if the next side doesn't? What if it's like, Craig or something?

Even Apollo (a common orange-side name theory, after Logan's comment about wishing Apollo had more of an influence in WTIT) would mess with the pattern, being A/pol/lo