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fumifooms · 6 months ago

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Do you think Kui retconned Kabru and Rin as a couple? It seems so strange how Kabru treats her if he views her as a sister

Rin & Kabru relationship analysis

Skip to the keep reading cut if you only want my Kabru & Rin thoughts. Tldr of the preamble is that I don't think Kui retconned anything but I don't think Kabru and Rin were ever meant to end up as a couple, but that doesn't mean that there's no way anything deeper or more complex is happening here. Under the keep reading is my pretty full analysis of Rin & Kabru, which I'll still cover in my full Kabru party analysis eventually.

1) People do debate about whether or not Kui changed her approach to a lot of her characters halfway through the story, Kabru, Thistle and Chilchuck to name some of the biggest ones. I've heard it be an explanation for the shapeshifters even, that it's a meta joke on how characters' old behavior and appearances have now become out of character. I personally believe nothing has been retconned, that all the characters are coherent and, perhaps more importantly, that regardless of later intent the early writing makes the characters more interesting and layered. Not that the idea of there being or needing retcons has no merit at all, for example forest goblins are in-world common knowledge to be found on the second floor, but we also learn later that "goblin" is a slur against half-foots, and knowing Dunmeshi's philosophy about humanoid monsters it's odd that they never ever come up again if they exist. The anime -and iirc adventurer's bible- kept there being goblins on the second floor of the dungeon, so much like Thistle's early appearance I have to believe it's a part of canon that's not meant to be retconned, ie that's canon and accepted as such, with some degree of intent. We do know that the climax of the manga was going to happen differently with what Kui was planning in the earlier manga days, with demon king dunlord Laios, too. Regardless of all this, for better or worse we have what we have now, and we must take it all into account as the whole picture of the work's story, setting and cast– starting to pick and choose what's actually canon from the canon story is just giving up and letting the world burn lol.

2) Kui is fearless when it comes to presenting us with complex layered relationships without feeling the need for them to explain themselves or offering full closure. Marcille canonically sees Falin as a friend. Laios' succubus was undebatably Marcille. Mickbell sees Kuro as family. Were the Touden parents bad parents? Is Maizuru? Is Milsiril? Ambiguity in Dunmeshi's case is a feature and not a bug, and perhaps this short story of Kui's shows why she prefers not to cast moral judgement as a narrator on various acts and characters. There's this very neutral approach to her writing where the cast does its own thing and she just tells us what happens, and as I said closure isn't a given. I've talked about the matter of whether or not Chilchuck's wife accepts him back before, something that bothers and lingers for a lot of readers, but an example that haunts me is Mickbell and Kuro. It's explicitly stated that Mickbell continues to "still being worked hard by Mickbell" after canon, and though we have one hint of how it might get better with Kuro learning common slowly but surely, there's no 1) conclusions as to what their relationship is exactly and 2) discouraging or encouraging framing for it, there's chiding but ultimately whether the relationship is more healthy than it is unhealthy and more salvageable than unsalvageable and "worth it" isn't answered. What happens will happen, and we just have to come to an answer that satisfies us on our own :') Or hey, how Falin only starts finding herself in post-canon! It offers a nice end to her arc in canon of having a very malleable unpresent identity, but it starts another of self-exploration growth that is left open-ended. So, it's not because a relationship feels wrong or unfinished that it wasn't well-written or intended.

3) Kui doesn't lie but characters can. Characters can be unaware of things or even wrong, even with their own feelings, like Chilchuck saying he doesn't care about the party etc etc, or more widely Marcille thinking orcs are scum, or people at large in Dunmeshi believing in a modified truth of history, a version of it without the demon. These can be wrong objectively, but furthermore they can be disproved by the text, the way that Dunmeshi shows us orcs can be communicated with and peaceful etc etc and every character's racism ends up narratively or implicitly discouraged and disproven, kobolds included. The story is told by us through the characters and their actions, so it's their flawed perspective and incomplete information that we have.

So, okay. Relationships are very complex but Kui doesn't tell lies, there's no info or moments that really have been retconned. The reader is left to make their own interpretation of canon.

... OKAY LAST TANGENT but we have to acknowledge something about canon quick too: This is gonna sound ironic considering what I said earlier but while all extras are made to be in-character they're not all canon to the storyline, so to speak. There are sort of three types of extra comics context I can think of, there are comics set in pre or post canon, like the one about the way Marcille was welcomed into Laios' party, or Falin's answer to Toshiro's proposal, which we have no reason to not believe happened in the canon timeline. Daydream Hours extras are exceptions because they're usually looser than Adventurer's bible extras, for example the comic about Milsiril visiting Kabru has a "what if" phrasing to the blurb, implying it didn't happen. Then there are extras set vaguely in time that if during canon could simply happen off-screen, like Chilchuck's extra about hearing the party members going to the bathroom, a lot of monster tidbits also fit into this, which again I have no reason to assume haven't happened. But now we get to the last type, the one set at a precise moment in canon that is impossible. My go-to example is the tidbit about werewolves, it's set during the Laios vs Lycion fight with Kabru present, and those chapters in the story had quite tight plotting, it makes no sense to consider that extra within the reality of that moment, it breaks the tone and story continuity and timespan of the scene, it can't be canon to the canon storyline. This is to say that again, although in every extra the lore is correct and characters are in-character, some extras are not "canon" to the story's timeline and can't have actually happened. And since it happened with one extra that didn't have any disclaimer of being different than any other, it does put other extras' canonity into question a bit too. Ultimately, what we get in the actual manga is above everything else in both relevance and credibility. This is about extra comics, but I don't call into question all the extra info through text we get in character blurbs and about the Dunmeshi world within the Adventurer's Bible at all, especially since it was specifically made to inform us more about canon. This is all just something to keep in mind, when talking about Dunmeshi canon.

Okay, now. In terms of rin & Kabru's relationship, as for what we see of it...

The quickest summary of how they see each other:

Rin's line reflects how she follows him out of worry, thinking that his ambitious manipulating ways will fail him and get him in trouble eventually, and how that worry is out of care and love. Kabru's line... Is more ambiguous, but we'll get into it.

We don't see Kabru and Rin interact a ton, but we do see him bring her up/think of her unprompted this time, which reveals a bit of how he sees her/feels about her and what his priorities are.

He "wants to help her get away somehow", and this out of what? Duty? Charity? Care? The companionship they once shared? Sympathy, knowing how it feels like to be under inadequate care by elves? Kabru is empathetic and wants good for people, cares about people and community, is rather concerned by the greater good instead of individualistic gain etc etc, so this attention isn't necessarily uncharacteristic on its own.

What makes their bond unique is the history between them.

It's implied they spent a lot of time together growing up, which led to Rin wanting to stick with him. Perhaps as some trauma-fueled-bond hero, but in her own words mostly because she's worried he'll get into trouble if he's left alone. She expicitly loves him romantically, started presumably before canon and presumably hasn't stopped by the end of it either.

We see his priorities here. It's notable that besides Rin being the sort of by default second most important kabru party character, she's also the one he thinks of first, understandably since he knows her best. Like above, he speaks very matter-of-factly and coldly about it though, and he seems surprisingly apathetic. It's not the thought of hostages that drives him to eat those monsters and keep strong, it's the thought of learning the mystery of dungeons and how to prevent Utaya tragedies

This moment below may seem like nothing, but it's also pretty telling of their dynamic:

Rin in the moment negatively assumes he's only frivolously interested in Namari, and although Kabru doesn't shut it down instantly with a "this isn't about personal interest" he does imply clearly with "friends" that his intent isn't to woo her (the fantranslation uses the word lovers instead iirc, so the original japanese word might be more revealing. Considering how Kabru sometimes teases Rin and provokes her jealousy on purpose like with the mermaids, it's not impossible the word was an euphemism). Rin ambiguously disbelieves this and/or disapproves. It does feel like Kabru keeps this sort of persona air when answering her, so it's not entirely hard to understand- it's true he was keeping his real reasons and intent secret: only later on does he give his party the "Laios party" spiel and mention Namari was part of it.

This can also be seen as an example of the chaperone "big sister" effect of her nagging, and of her recurring bad faith towards him. Rin chastises Kabru for behavior and stances that are understandable, like telling him he shouldn't just smile and gloss things over when being belittled, but she does have the habit of being easily jealous and lashing out because of it. But again, if you see it from her stance, your childhood friend always thinks he an handle everything alone and acts like he has the fate of the world resting solely on his shoulders, and he keeps shutting you out and leaving you to guess for his intentions, and being someone under his leadership on top of a friend makes this more alarming and frustrating. Loving him as you do, knowing him for as long as you have, you'd wish Kabru was open with you and that'd create frustration.

Yet despite everything there's trust here. There's familiarity and a degree of comfort, even when Kabru always refuses to fully open up. A promise from Kabru means something to her, it's worth something, she does trust his word and morals even when she knows he can be dishonest. She's used to Kabru, and through thick and thin she wants to be there to support him in his goals and look after him.

But below, his priorities are reaffirmed. He literally pushes her out of his way in that first page, to get to laios who represents his goals, and then figuratively by brushing her off. I think it's very interesting that the look her gives her feels alike to the look he gives Laios shortly before, those sort of empty eyes. They make me think it's his mask-on "business mode" look, and when it's a matter of business things have gotten serious and he will not entertain irrelevant matters. Like Rin's feelings. My first instinct's always been that his look at her meant a resounding "shut up", but it's true it could also easily be a "come on, catch up", especially since he goes on to explain that they mustn't have meant harm in the first place.

It's not only the look that's cold though, because you'll remember, "catching the culprits" was the promise Kabru made to her, the one she trusted that made her agree to their party's plan at all in the first place. Even though the phrasing wasn't precise on that front, by giving up on confronting or punishing Laios' party at all he's breaking his promise, and doing so very dismissively.

It's the distance of it, in how cold he is to her, how distant from him and pushed away by him she feels. It seems to say that yes, the teases he does are meaningless bones he throws at her, the moments they share are below him and below his goals, this is what's important to him and this is how Kabru wants to treat her when push comes to shove. With harsh chiding of his own and then calm explanations, as if while she's heartfelt with him he's indifferent with her.

Although, like how in the end he doesn't want to kill Laios despite it being the safe choice, there's much to say on wether or not he would actually throw her under the bus in the end even if cornered. He always steels himself for the worst, but he's also more talk than bite when it comes to truly being effortlessly ruthless and he prefers to find peaceful and humane solutions. In the end though, the hostage situation more or less tips the scale both ways, even if it'd be easy to say he was simply hiding his concern.

Okay and now to quicken things up this is where I start dividing interpretations as "good faith" as in believing Kabru's explanation that he has a strictly sisterly attachment to her, vs "bad faith" where there is potential for considering romantic interest on his end.

To start with the least questionable:

"We're talking about how cute your smile is, Rin." Good faith: He's complimenting his friend, wants her to not feel insecure, wants her to feel more confident and likeable desirable, because he's nice or because he cares about her. It does make her happy in the end, after all. Knowing it would, he might even have said it just to demonstrate his point to Mickbell with her reaction. Bad faith: You know she likes you, isn't this weird to go out of your way to say? He's not lying exactly, but they were moreso talking about her attitude around smiling, and he could just as easily have deflected or said "Oh, nothing much". Bringing up her appearance or how cute she is could also have made her self-conscious, she's not really the kind that likes public attention- but he knows her the best and it shows, after all. In the end, it doesn't sound like something you'd just tell someone you know pines after you that you want to turn down or discourage from pursuing you.

"When she furrows her brows, I assume she's smiling inside" is also weird to me. Sure she does have this weird situation with emoting going on, but claiming Rin is never angry is factually wrong and always dismissing that anger feels belittling. But this approach to reading Rin and interacting with her would explain why he always teases her, I suppose.

But this is kinda what I mean when I say they are close, in a way, the way he knows how she is with smiling, the way he's comfortable saying things like this to her despite not being someone you just have to interact with occasionally. There IS familiarity there IS intimacy, it's just odd and inconsistently applied.

Kissing her: Good faith: This is an urgent dangerous situation and kissing her is the quickest and most direct way to shut her up, which in his situation he does not have the luxury of time or ressources to think through solutions better. We don't fully know the details of incantation magic's workings, had he slapped his hand over her mouth maybe her lips could have continued moving and chanting so she could have still finished her spell, compared to kissing where it stop both lip movement and sounds from coming out. Plus, kissing her has the added effect of heavily shocking her. In a 'what if' bluray bonus comic Kabru's party faces shapeshifters and he suggests everyone get naked as a quick solution, so it is implied there too that physical intimacy and privacy aren't something he puts above practicality. Bad faith: Gag her. Hell, shove your finger down her throat. 'Master of human anatomy and psychology' here decided he had no other choice than kissing her. In that 'what if' extra I mentioned, Kabru did find another much less practical way to deal with the shapeshifters and went through with that instead, knowing no one would be happy getting naked. Also "It's too bad she looks like a monster", hello what? Neutral: Perhaps he chose, because either way in any case he did choose to, to kiss her precisely because he's mr. master of psychology, because knowing it was Rin he decided kissing was the best approach specifically because it's her, knowing it'd shock her etc etc, regardless of it being tactful or not or if it'd hurt her or even encourage her love for him.

"It's too bad she looks like a monster." Good faith: It's a neutral enough statement that he could mean a couple of different things with it, including wishing he could see her reaction better or speak with her more easily. If we go with the "I wish I wasn't kissing her as a fishman" angle, well, he really hates monsters to a traumatized degree so pseudoincest may be preferrable over monsterfucking. Fair enough. Bad faith: The fantranslation translates it as "it's a shame" instead of "it's too bad", which does lend itself to a less neutral reading, but wether that's reliable and telling or not would depend on the original japanese sentence of course. He could have meant "I wish she looked like anything else but a monster", but "I wish she (at least?) looked like herself when I kissed her" is the most direct interpretation, and then, well. That's pretty damning. To me it sort of feels odd that'd have been the phrasing if that was the case, especially since Kabru especially has noticeable reactions to monsters like shaking, horrified faces and dramatic thoughts. This is his internal thoughts and "Too bad she looks like a monster" feels very casual- the same type of casual that he has when deflecting not being interested in Namari to Rin, aka him being more playful. "I wish she looked like herself when I had to kiss her", like man. Okay. There's a lot of leeway you can give him but it's still odd.

Good faith: ??? I do struggle with this one. A friend of mine has the interpretation that this is an epic own of sorts, that by "always like this" Kabru meant "unable for me to hear you" so he likes not hearing what she says. Reardless, wether his assumption is accurate or not, Kabru is taunting/teasing when he says "look at me, not the mermaids", to what could have very well been just Rin noticing his staring and telling him to focus, and "You'd be cute if you were always like this", and like always he's very casual as he does it, says it like it's nothing, so it could mean nothing deeper. Bad faith: Why do you have to say any of this, what do you think it accomplishes, this counts as flirting in most books. It doesn't make her mood better, it doesn't shut her up, so I can only imagine Kabru simply enjoys doing this, it entertains him for one reason or another. Why do you keep calling her cute why is this a pattern that is forming. Neutral: Presumably, Rin is also unable to hear him since they all wear the earplugs. This would mean that beyond his gesturing, his words aren't meant for her to actually hear.

So.

My honest reaction:

Kabru what is this............. Huh. Kabru. What do you mean

The issue

It's less intimidating when analyzing each piece of interaction one by one to slowly form a wider picture, but it's still quite the puzzle. Because ultimately, what he feels for her aside, he is both pushing her away and encouraging her crush on him. He is both keeping her out and leading her on. He is both trying to keep a distance and throwing her bones to latch onto. And huh. Why though.

He's too socially savvy not to know Rin likes him right? Right? He even teases her about being jealous. He has to. He hassss to. And then obviously he has no intent of reciprocating. Especially since he's a huge flirt with anyone and Rin makes it clear she feels jealous.

Then, it feels kinda cruel...? You don't have to flirt, or taunt her because you know she likes you, and blow her off like that without ever having a serious talk. And like I said, shove your finger in there instead of kissing her. Did he do it because he prefers her being kissed over her puking? Was it out of pity? Throwing her crumbs of attention? Is him wanting her out of the elves' grasp just pity? Is it soooo easy for Kabru to tease her and kiss her despite having no feelings of his own, borderline mocking how deeply she loes him and what it means to her? Is doing all this "for her sake" too, like bringing her along was? Just. Free Rin. Free Rin of this.

In the end, what side of "does Kabru like Rin or not" you fall on pretty much depends on wether you favor a consistent "good faith" reading or a consistent "bad faith" reading, which impression you got while reading. But I hope I was able to show that both sides have reasons to think it and both are coherent interpretations of canon, neither are just being dense or difficult for the sake of it. A Kabru interpretation differs almost person to person. Personally I think the ambiguity itself is telling, which is why I usually land with a weird ambiguous situationship characterisation with them, they're a third secret thing and Kabru's feelings for her are complicated imo. He doesn't love her but he doesn't not love her etc. Dungeon Meshi largely lets the reader come up with their own interpretations of details, Kui herself said interpreting characters however is readers' freedom, and the story also avoids romance in general.

Although, there's debate as to wether he even leads her on at all, and personally I think it's pretty undeniable regardless of his intent, if anything even just going by effect.

All I can safely say is that this is not the behavior of someone smartly turning someone down.

Potential 'why's

BUT you could almost say he's purposefully trying to hurt her by being jokingly flirty and casual about it all, which could be to push her away and discourage her from pursuing him, wether it be for her sake or his own. It is a ship post, but I explore this stance a bit in my previous kabrin post if you're interested and unafraid of shippy brainstorming.

Or, inversely, maybe to him leading her on is a way to spare her feelings. Maybe he feels guilty about her liking him, or maybe he feels like he has to repay her somehow. Where his behavior when teasing her in early canon is rather provoking, most often I'd call his demeanor towards her placating if anything. We do see that Kabru prefers letting people down easy, except when shit is serious in the dungeon I guess, and he tries not to rattle people.

Personally, my favorite niche reading is I think it's his way of avoiding confrontation. He doesn't want to lose her, so he gives her just enough hope to hold onto so she'll keep following him, unknowing that Rin follows him out of a sense of duty of her own rather than romantic hope, because he always underestimates people's like of him like Laios does, assumes that people like him less than they seem because even when they do it's a version of him that's tailored to be likable. So he does this to keep the status quo going and keep her interested without having to reciprocate or commit.

I do think he also takes her for granted a bit. "Whenever she frowns I imagine it's a smile instead" what are you talking about. Like I said earlier, it feels weirdly dismissive and belittling to treat her anger as if it was something else, even assuming it to be joy- and there's merit to calling the anger Rin often shows a misdirected feeling, because yes, it's out of worry and care and love and she has a hard time emoting outside of a harsh-seeming scope etc, but is this what's going on here? His words leave me equally intrigued and concerned.

And like, her caring anger coupled by her nagging and scolding and looking after him unconditionally, I'm sure she does frustrate him sometimes and makes him feel stifled especially with his background at Milsiril's, making the big sister comparison very understandable... ... BUT THEN WHY LEAD HER ON.

What he could feel

Okay so first of. "She sort of feels like how it'd be like to have a big sister" and "I see her as a sister, I strictly see her as if we shared family ties and she was the blood of my blood" are different. Kabru being like "Man, I wished she looked like herself when I had to kiss her" does not feel like a brother-sister thing to me, personally.

But hey, going with the opposite angle too- "She's like a sister to me" can be an easy shorthand to say "I care about you but I don't see you romantically or sexually at all" and it can be "you are deeply important to me and our bond would remain no matter the distance or time we are apart" and even "I can't imagine my life without you (no romo)". In many languages like french, the word soulmate instead literally translates as 'sister soul', as in a twin soul etc etc-. A husband and a wife, too, are family. This is to say that both familial love and romantic love can run very deep, with a similar intensity just in a different nature, platonic or romantic. Kabru doesn't necessarily feel very strongly towards Rin even with the sister angle, but what I'm saying is that if it isn't just a catchphrase to let Rin down easy, whether something he would tell Rin or just something he tells himself, then it's not entirely out of the question Kabru would mix up the nature of that affection he feels for her. Maybe being childhood friends, he thinks it makes sense for it to be what he feels for her. I don't think this is necessarily farfetched because we see that Kabru neglects his own needs heavily for the sake of his goals, he doesn't recognize or acknowledge his needs for social connections or things like sleeping, cooking and keeping his living quarters orderly. I think it's in character for him to dismiss outright that he could be in love with someone, and even for him to suppress it, because he can't let anything be more important to him than preventing more Utaya tragedies. If you subscribe to the idea that Kabru wanted to be Laios' friend at the back of his mind, this is in line with that.

Regardless of the "truth"/intent, I agree Kabru treating 'his sister' Rin the way he did in canon is really mega major weirdo of him though.

He sees her as a sister, or he believes he does. With a romantic angle, it could mean: Denial, repression, having a bond that feels as deep and immutable. Leading her on because: wanting her near but still pushing her away, being interested and scared to admit it, thinking he shouldn't let himself have this, not interested but still wanting the safety net of her.

Again with my own interpretation, I think he loves her the way one loves a safety net. What I and others may mean when we say that we think Kabru doesn't love her but he also doesn't not love her. I think this is why he's both taking her for granted and caring, dismissive and considerate, her "brother figure" but also the guy who will flirt with her without a second thought. A safety net the way one is comforted by a big sister mayhaps, who's disapproving yet always unconditionally there to help. But family and comfort are so closely tied together, it's unsurprising they get entangled sometimes, a lot of behaviors can be seen as both romantic and familial and it's just a matter of the facts and perspective, because in the end what they are both is loving- and canonically, Rin loves Kabru romantically and Kabru cares for Rin like a sister.

Conclusion

I've said before that I think you can call them each other's best friend and that that's sad, and I stand by it. I think it's easy to argue that Rin is the one who knows Kabru best currently in his life, and the reverse is true for Kabru knowing Rin best. It's lonely, for both of them I think, Rin's kind of tough love is not working for him and Kabru is not filling Rin's emotional needs.

The reason why Kabru might feel like he has to get Rin out of the elves' grasp is because she has no one else, at least no one else that was deemed important enough to have been referred to or implied at all. And Rin calls him out for his shallow behavior and his unhealthy habits. They're close enough and weirding others around them enough that people like Mickbell notice when they heatedly do their song and dance and argue but hey, this is just another monday, and how Mickbell asumes she cleans his place up for him because that's what intuitively makes the most sense- it's the first thought, the most intuitive. Rin would do anything for Kabru and devotes herself to helping him, after all.

Reminder that this is the guy we're talking about:

I think her concern is worried tbh, he doesn't know what a DUST CLOTH is and he's pretty unhealthy, forgetting to eat and drinking to go to sleep, overworking himself. He'd easily work himself into an early grave. He neglects himself. I've said before in my Kuro x Kabru post that I think Kabru focuses so much on the bigger picture and saving the world that he forgets that he himself is important too, that he's truly special to some people, that he's even some people's hero, not just the world's, and I think to a degree it's good that Kabru has someone there to ground him and scold him when he's being thoughtless or overthinking, to try to show him that he's loved and valued, in her own way which he claims to understand so well like he does her smiles.

Kabru's a character where fan interpretations especially differ, he's hard to read when it comes to the details, so his relationship with Rin is very much a grey zone, especially when trying to precisely pin it down. I think though that it is a mistake to say that Rin isn't special to him in some shape or form.

I talk about human connections as a big theme of Dunmeshi sometimes, as this thing everyone needs but may deny themselves or deny that they do need and want, and Kabru and Rin are part of that theme, to me.

Post-canon, Rin and Kabru continue to see each other, presumably semi-regularly, which is an implication from an extra that we don't get with the other Kabru party members. They stay in touch, because what tied them together was never work but a personal tie.

This ask took long af to write up but it's gonna make my Kabru party analysis easier later yay. Little preview of the chart i made.

I'll remind that Mickbell and Kuro's relationship is also stated to be of a familial nature. Contradictions aren't always mistakes, people are made of them! Just like how ambiguity can be a narrative tool, complexity and dissonance can be a feature and not a bug.

#Ask #Spoilers #Dungeon meshi manga spoilers #Dungeon meshi #Kabru of utaya #Rinsha fana #Kabrin #Meta #Analysis #feel free to argue in my notes this is a very layered and subjective topic and i guess not everyone sees his behavior as flip flopping #just don't expect me to reply i feel like i was pretty extensive here #hm wait i should have swapped the red or green with the blue in my chart for colorblind folk i'm stupid #well i did again lose all my files with my ipad breaking so this is what we got ig...!#i need a smoke after this kabrin kabrin you are so wtf. (I do not smoke)#ask asked on the 14th #btw in my head after all is said and done here I do see them as just staying friends forever and mellowing out with time becoming normaler #the preamble is very much Fumi Rambles but not the second half so i won't tag ig. why do i take this so seriously #Kui did go out of her way to make Kabru weird about Rin. Narratively and behavioraly these did not need to happen

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randomnameless · 2 years ago

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Eh, i'm not sure i agree with the point about needing to have scenes where characters who did bad things apologize to the people they've hurt, especially when it can be inferred that they did so off-screen; Iruka wasn't in the war, Kurama and Naruto only go back to the Leaf after a timeskip, and then there's a 12-year timeskip in chapter 700, and Kurama could have easily apologized to Iruka for what he did during either of those timeskips, especially after Naruto reignited his faith in humanity. Characters can change, regret bad things they've done, and apologize to the people hurt by said bad actions, and i don't think it's necessary to have scenes where they list off all their regrets and apologize to everyone they hurt on-screen.

Also, i don't recall there being any proof Obito had anything to do with starting the Blood Mist tradition, though i could be wrong on that.

Also also, i don't remember the scene very well, but it's fine for Naruto to call Kurama a brother after they spent 12 years being on very good terms and the two of them being nothing but helpful to each other; it's bad if he says that he was one of his first bonds, sure, since that's blatantly wrong, but if he just said that he grew a close attachment to Kurama after all they went through in the og series, that seems perfectly fine to me.

In regards to the Raikage scene, Naruto wasn't arguing that he should forgive Sasuke outright, just that he shouldn't go out and kill him because that'd just cause the people in the Leaf who still cared about Sasuke to hold a grudge against the Cloud, which could spiral into something much worse given enough time; he never tells Ay that Sasuke should go completely unpunished for what he did, just that there's no reason to put out a kill-on-sight order on him.

With the convo between Naruto and Nagato, while it is kinda underwhelming, i think it still works decently, though not as well as Obito's; Nagato's worldview had just been shattered by not only being beaten despite considering himself an almighty god above humanity, but also by Naruto, someone whose life he'd just ruined and who admitted to hating him, refusing to act on his anger and wanting to listen to his side of the story, before proclaiming that he'd find a way to succeed where Nagato had failed and end the cycle of hatred. While it's a bit of a stretch that being proven wrong about being above humanity and seeing one counter-example to his theory that people can't truly understand each other and will always fall back on their anger caused him to change his mind as much as he did, i wouldn't call it a “bad” convo.

It's long so I'll put it under a cut!

Sure anon, but imo, it reads as another dark spot against Kishi's manga -

There wasn't enough screentime for the victims to gain reparation, but we always had the adequate screentime to get the villain's backstory?

As I said in an earlier post, we're eons away from Part 1 Gaara who, just after being beaten by Naruto, apologises to Temari and Kankuro while they're taking him away.

The anime and the manga are different, I know, but even Pierrot (who did wonders for this verse!) had time to show Ino'n'Sakura arguing about a trinket to offer to Naruto and Hinata for their wedding, but no time for, idk, while Naruto isn't sure he should ask Iruka if he can act as his "father figure", Kurama trying to resolve the situation and/or thinking he might be the problem because he killed Iruka's parents all those years ago and deciding to apologise for doing so - with Iruka basically rehearsing what he said in the very first chapter, Naruto is Naruto and Kurama is Kurama, he would have came to the wedding regardless of anything, but he is glad Kurama is now someone who can worry for others like Naruto, and not only the person who killed his parents -

I mean, something, anything else than "and they made up off screen during the timeskip when Naruto gave free wifi access to Konoha".

Also, i don't recall there being any proof Obito had anything to do with starting the Blood Mist tradition, though i could be wrong on that.

I've checked the wiki (i know :() but I was under the impression the Bloody Mist era started when Yagura was the 4th Mizukage? And when we know Yagura was manipulated through Genjustu by Obito...

It's funny because in Boruto we have his grandson (?) who says his family was basically ostracised in the Mist because of Yagura's actions - I guess no one told him or the people of the Mist that Yagura wasn't the demon and despot everyone remembers him as, he was acting like this because he was being controlled ? By Obito?

Grandson dies in the Boruto plot, so hopefully, no one will ever give a fuck about this "who did the Bloody Mist" anymore.

My Bad, I misremembered!

However, Naruto's pleas are completely worthless because, while I know "death for death" isn't solving anything, Ay's brother was killed by a member of Akatsuki - the same organisation Konoha (and Naruto himself!) has been hunting for years know.

Sasuke's situation is a bit complex, but usually, the second someone joins the Akatsuki, they're a missing nin, a criminal and are marked as threats who have to be supressed.

Sure Hidan'n'Kakuzu happened before Naruto talked to Pain, but I doubt Naruto stopped by the village of Waterfall to talk to people who loved Kakuzu to "break the cycle of hatred" and not take revenge on Konoha.

I don't remember if it's during this moment or later, but Naruto basically pleads for Ay to apply a double standard because Sasuke is his friend.

This is where Naruto as a manga completely fails, and the issue that brought this entire discussion lol - characters face no consequences for their actions, especially when it comes to dealing with victims of said actions.

In his novel (iirc?) Sasuke behaved like an adult - or the better man compared to Naruto - and ultimately went to Ay to apologise for his arm, the Kage Summit and everything else, and Ay accepted his apologies.

This is the petulant child/tantrum I was talking about, I'm sure if Nagato accepted to listen back the Tsunade instead of Shinra Tensei'ng her to oblivion, he might have had a change of heart, but he was full of himself because of his might in a "might makes right" mindset - as you pointed out, he believed himself to be a god, so he had to be beaten up before finally being willing to listen to people.

I liked the part where Kurama came out during their "discussion", I remember when the raws (a very long time ago lol) were released people were wondering if Kishi made a blooper with Naruto's eyes, but no! Kurama, was also pissed at his story/discourse!

Naruto being the better man/the adult and not bashing his head in was a great sign of maturity from his part* - but then everything failed, because that discussion he had with Nagato about the cycle of hatred and his backstory was... only between him and Nagato.

Nagato solves this issue before it can arisen, but when Choji will ask why his father died, what Naruto is going to tell him? When Sakura will ask for some sort of reparation/justice/consequence against the man who killed both of her parents (assuming they were in the village when it was destroyed), what is going to happen?

Why only Naruto, as a victim, was allowed to get closure/an answer for Nagato's crimes, and not the 48752 other victims who might have had the same grievances?

And again, the cycle of hatred created by Nagato broke, the second he died to resurrect everyone - so there's no hatred to deal with. Naruto had to deal with his own hatred and sadness, accepted to listen to Nagato, and Nagato "undid" all the hatred he created and on top of that, dies, so no one will ever talk him shit for what he did (and undid). That's it.

We don't know if Sakura would have reacted like Naruto, if Shikamaru would, if Chouji would etc etc.

I know the manga is called Naruto and not Choji, but when the answer is supposed to be an answer for the world, it's completely ridiculous that Naruto gives it, and later forgot to tell to the rest of the village what was the result of his discussion, instead basking in the fame of "having defeated Pain".

There's no greated discussion between Naruto and his friends and the village council or whoever about what happened to Pain, what was the "cycle of hatred" and how to prevent future Pains from popping up.

*even if I prefered Asta's version, but in this specific Naruto situation, instead of listening to Nagato's answer and ultimately only talking about Jiraiya this and Jiraiya that and forgetting the 2k people who died due to Nagato's warped vision of "peace", Naruto could have thrown him his og head protector, the thing he received from someone who should, by all means, hate him because the demon inside of him killed his parents - but no, that man put an end to that cycle and became the first person who ever acknowledged him and became his family - and in his trantrum, Nagato killed that man.

of course this entire arc was build around a "child of the prophecy" bullshit - which later needs zombitachi to remind Naruto that no, no one can do anything alone, they need to be surrounded by people and rely on them - so the "you gave up on ending the cycle of hatred but it doesn't mean you should kill anyone who still tries to get rid of it, like Jiraiya, Iruka, random konohasian 86 or even me" since only naruto/nagato had to have the answer, but well, to be fair, that arc and its entire premise was pretty shitty to begin with.

While it's a bit of a stretch that being proven wrong about being above humanity and seeing one counter-example to his theory that people can't truly understand each other and will always fall back on their anger caused him to change his mind as much as he did, i wouldn't call it a “bad” convo.

His theory completely sucked, because wow very surprising, when you kill someone's loved one that someone is going to be pissed.

Sure that's his entire backstory and motto, iirc, some konoha loldiers accidently killed his family (they thought they were other people?) so in the shortcutted Uchiha deduction by Tobirama (tm), the more you love, the more you're going to hate.

Also, the "people can't truly understand each other" theory is rich coming from the guy who hired a psycho like Hidan.

But in general, in Naruto, there's this weird conflation between "understanding" and "accepting" - people can and will understand each other by fighting, and the loser (if he survives) will understand the winner's pov? Or he died, so he accepted it ?

Take post Pain Arc Naruto, if he met, for some reason, Hidan who didn't die before. What was he going to say? To understand with a guy like Hidan? Would he be worried about spreading the cycle of hatred?

Would Naruto tell Shikamaru not to kill Hidan, the guy who nearly had a boner when he executed Azuma?

What did Pain/Nagato (or even Kishimoto in this manga) meant by understanding?

#anon #replies #blogging about naruto lol #i swear i had this post ready since last friday #but i forgot it in my drafts because i wanted to add tags...#anyways maybe it's me because i was a bit young when this arc happened #but imo the Pain arc and its entire building was like the thing that made me reconsider continuing this manga #but i was part of the fandom and those were the 'blessed days'#where you were waiting for raws then translated chapters and then talked to random people on the net and shared opinions and theories and #whatnot about what was going to happen #the entire 'child of prophecy' made me yikes because duh wtf do you mean naruto is a child of prophecy #back when reincarnation nonsense was still far far far away #it was also amidst this era where there was this trend in fandom in general #where sympathising with the vilain was seen as new and not as hamfisted as it is today #but even back then i was like 'why the fuck should i feel bad for this guy who nuked the village of randoms i knew since chapter 1?'#'you killed teuchi and ayame what the fuck are you even talking about teuchi was a guy making ramens'

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